The Tigers are “looking for [a] big,big,big return without salary offset” in exchange for Justin Verlander, according to the perception of teams who have asked about the star right-hander, ESPN’s Buster Olney reports (Twitter links).
It isn’t surprising that Detroit would aim this high in trade talks, both because Verlander has been such a cornerstone for the franchise and for “it only takes one team to say yes” reasons. Other reports have suggested that the Tigers would be open to eating some of Verlander’s remaining salary, so it could be that the Tigers are willing to move from their initial demands.
Some flexibility is likely required to facilitate a Verlander trade given the many factors involved. Most importantly, Verlander has a full no-trade clause, so he could scuttle any deal if he simply doesn’t want to leave Detroit. It isn’t known whether Verlander is open to being dealt or what his demands would be (if any) for waiving his no-trade clause, though whatever the case, he clearly has “enormous leverage” in whatever trade negotiations take place, as Olney writes.
The righty is owed roughly $13.6MM for the remainder of this season, $28MM in both 2018 and 2019, and a $22MM vesting option for 2020 that is guaranteed if Verlander has a top-five finish in the 2019 Cy Young Award voting.
Beyond the money, there’s also the fact that Verlander is 34 and has 2437 career innings on his arm. He posted great numbers in 2016 and in the second half of an injury-shortened 2015 season, though Verlander has managed just a 4.96 ERA, 8.4 K/9 and career-worst 4.3 BB/9 over 98 IP this year. Verlander’s fastball velocity (95mph) is the hardest he’s thrown since 2011, though he has a 37.8% hard-contact rate that far surpasses his 27.1% career average.
His inconsistent 2017 season and the Tigers’ demands notwithstanding, however, one would think Verlander would draw quite a bit of trade interest considering his track record as a top-of-the-rotation ace. At least three or four teams have checked in with the Tigers about Verlander, with the Cubs and Dodgers both linked to former Cy Young Award winner on an exploratory basis. Chicago and Los Angeles fit the profile of the (somewhat limited) type of team that could swing a Verlander trade — a big-market club with a deep farm system, so they could afford at least a chunk of Verlander’s future earnings and also have the prospects available to interest the Tigers.
Tigers GM Al Avila has recently commented both about his franchise’s desire to cut payroll and his openness to listening to trade offers for veteran players, though moving Verlander would represent a larger step towards a potential rebuild than dealing, for instance, impending free agents like J.D. Martinez or Alex Avila. If Detroit is planning on a quick return to contention, however, I would suspect the team would look for both young talent and some slightly pricier proven MLB talent that would help the Tigers in 2018. That type of return could help make up the numbers in a Verlander trade if the Tigers are indeed not willing to eat much or any of Verlander’s contract.
So, in other news, he won’t be traded.
Haha no way they must be delusional
Not to CHI.. terrible move. He has too many OLD contracts. What a fool
Is scott bor.ass now the gm of the tigers?
Tigers don’t have much incentive to sell. Paying 28 million a year and having him finish his potential HOF career as a tiger is much better for them than paying a huge chunk of his future salary and flipping him for mediocre prospects. Ticket sales would plummet even more than they already have, since Verlander is still a draw (ESPECIALLY IN DETROIT).
If you think your team can acquire Verlander without paying for most of his salary or giving up some of your top prospects, you’re wrong.
The remaining salary alone should make it obvious to all that without Detroit eating a fair share of it, JV is going no where….maybe the Dodgers are close enough this year to where he’s their Aroldis Chapman and their pockets are too deep for their own good, but we shall see. No way does Theo pay that kind of money though.
under the new ownership, they seem to be stingy with prospects and not too keen on multiple, expensive years with old guys
In other words, they’re being smart.
“…big, big, big return….” ALOL! Not even worth a big return if Tigers pickup a large portion of his contract. Keep him for through 2019 and improves Tigers chances of a high draft pick through 2020.
As of now, he’s the best pitcher on the market. He’s not even a year removed from pitching at a cy young-caliber level. He’s controllable for the next 2 and half years. What do you you mean he’s not worth a big return??? Especially if the tigers do eat some contract, which they shouldn’t really have to do, depending on the team.
he is not the best pitcher on the market.
Ok, who is then? Archer isn’t on the market (rays are contending), and as of now Darvish isn’t either. Verlander is better than Gray, and Degrom isn’t going to be available. Verlander was the best pitcher of this group as of just last year anyways.
With all of the FA pitchers on the market this year, why would you pay that much? You’re really only paying for the second half of this this year knowing there’s a risk that his contract will become an albatross. It’s not what us fans or the media think he’s worth, it’s what the market thinks he’s worth.
You look at the Chapman and Miller trades for the Yankees last year and the returns they got for relief pitchers and you can’t help but wonder how many top prospects it’ll take to land JV
If you get Verlander though you get Kate Upton so it might be worth it
This is a fact
I could see her at every dodger game ratings will go up
For who? 60% of households in SoCal can’t watch the games!
If people really haven’t figured out how to watch games by now they dont deserve it. Every game is love streamed on youtube
live*
Theoretically and morally why should they have to.
Are you going to leave that comment on every single Verlander article?
I’d like the tribe to trade for him just for her…bench him, let her throw out the first pitch everygame. that’ll be good enough
Not many since that contract is a killer.
0. A team should give 0 top prospects for Verlander. He’s old. He’s not that good. His contract is ridiculous. Nuff said.
As of now, he’s the best pitcher on the market. He’s not even a year removed from pitching at a cy young-caliber level. He’s controllable for the next 2 and half years. What do you you mean he’s not worth a big return??? There are varying reports on whether the Tigers will eat salary, but if they do??
he’s pitched like crap this year, is owed insane money for the next 2 1/2 years, and is 34 years old. He’s a gamble, and if the gamble doesn’t pay off, a very expensive one. The Tigers should be willing to give away Verlander if someone wants to take on his contract., It’s not that he’s a bad pitcher, it’s just highly unlikely he pitches well enough to be worth $58 million in the next two years. The Tigers aren’t contending with him, so they might as well hand off that contract for whatever they can get, and spend the money on someone who will help in their rebuild.
I completely disagree that the tigers should be willing to just “give away” someone who should have been the cy young last year. Like I said, the Tigers can eat as much money as they want to increase the prospect return. It wouldn’t sit well with the fanbase if they traded a cornerstone of their franchise for a B-ranked prospect, and any GM knows that. Other than that, it really just comes down to how you view his current struggles. The stuff is there. The only thing that’s missing is the command. Verlander has made in-season adjustments before.
You look at chapman and miller and realize that those are both terrible comparisons to use for this.
I you can wonder. Zero top prospects for him. You see the thing with Miller and Chapman is that they are STUDS. JV no longer is.
I wouldn’t touch this–the risk is way too high. And his contract is far too expensive, especially for the bigger market teams that might be bumping up against the luxury tax.
If Detroit’s price is indeed that high, I expect teams to start discussing Quintana again before a Verlander deal comes to life.
A “big, big, big return without salary offset”? Looks like you guys are stuck with him.
No salary offset. And solid prospects.
Bwahahahaha.
He should have won the AL Cy Young Award last season.
What do you think is a fair return? A 20th-ranked minor league prospect?
The question remains, do the Tigers really want to get under the cap in 2018? If so, finding a willing taker for his full $29 million next year might be the key to the trade.
Which teams would do that?
they’d be under just with the expiring contracts coming up over the next two years.
If they don’t value dropping below the limit in 2018, they’ll have a harder time moving Verlander.
Fair enough.
No need to trade for a guy that needs to get 3-point-high to break even.
You don’t pay for past performance. And his most recent data suggests something is wrong.
I’m not sure what I would pay to take on Verlander’s contract but it wouldn’t be significant.
What’s wrong is two terrible games against the Indians and the worst bullpen in the majors. The other recent data tell you nothing is wrong.
Of course you pay for past performance. That is the way the entire baseball structure is set up. Young players are paid a relative pittance while they are compiling stats in order to get a big contract to cover the declining years when they will likely put up lesser numbers than they did during the arbitration process.
JV had a 4.50 ERA in June. That’s some recent data that isn’t good.
Perhaps, but generalizing is ludicrous.
Teams will pay for “past performance” when Bryce Harper hits the FA market, not so much in a trade for a 34-year old pitcher on the down side of his career, a ton of innings on his arm and huge dollars remaining on his contract.
Verlander finished 2nd in the cy young race last year. They aren’t paying for past performance. Also, when verlander signed the extension, he was pitching at a HOF level. You have to pay a premium to sign a guy like that. That’s just how it is.
That’s exactly how it is when you’re extending great players. But great players age, and become less great. But you don’t get Verlander if you don’t pay for his decline phase.
Teams pay for future production. Projecting future production takes age, track record, recent datasets, etc. This is how aging curves are done.
Comparimg peak Harper years with a decline phase Verlander is false equivalency.
This is how the MLBPA structures their payouts to reward those with the most service in the big leagues. Nobody looks after the little guy. This is also completely different from how player acquisitions are made.
He doesn’t look like the same pitcher as last year, why should a team gamble that he’ll go back to that at this age by paying for the full contract and giving up top prospects. Just bad odds that ever works out positively for the acquiring team.
Assuming Verlander’s numbers stay the same as they have in the first half, would you offer Verlander a 2 year, $58M contract this offseason? I don’t think anyone would. At this point, he’s probably worth $17-$18M per year for the next few years, not the $28M he’s owed. Even that value assumes that he improves over his first half.
Then why are teams even inquiring if he has negative value, like you said he does?
Is every team inquiring about acquiring albert pujols? It’s free to inquire, right? My point was that you need to have interest in a player, otherwise, why waste your time asking?
Who cares. That was last year. You dont trade for the past
The fact that he was pitching at an elite level JUST last year is highly relevant. We’re not talking about his 2011 performance. We’re talking about just last year.
He’s unreliable despite his velocity upside. I am hoping my team doesn’t touch him.
Many commenters don’t seem to understand how to negotiate. Why would Detroit tell teams “we are looking to eat money and don’t want top prospects?” It’s up to other teams to make an offer. The Tigers don’t have to trade him.
But at the same time if you set the price too high to start off nobody will want to waste their time. Imagine trying to buy a car and the first price they told you was double the retail price. Nobody would want that car lol
No gm is going to inquire once and not again. Asking prices change all the time and all GM’s understand this.
Most people on here are clueless, they are usually dead certain a guy will be traded for a package or signed to a contract that ends up being twice as big as they expected.
‘Most people on here are clueless’.
Is that the best way to talk about a community you’re a part of?
Wow, is this ever a hanging curveball.
That is a fair point in most negotiations but it is a silly position to take when it is obvious that Verlander is no longer worth $28MM per season through 2019. The teams looking for pitching help have other options who are younger, having better seasons, and cost much less so Tigers run the risk of scaring away several teams which diminishes the market for Verlander. Perhaps Tigers really don’t care if they keep Verlander through 2019, but that doesn’t fit with their comments about reducing payroll. If I am the Dodgers, for example, I tell the Tigers we aren’t interested unless your position changes — we will pursue other options.
True but regardless if Detroit eats a huge chunk to get better prospects the team he’s traded to has to take on that huge salary cap hit.
Luxury tax? There is no salary cap in baseball.
There is certainly a luxury tax though.
I’m guessing Detroit wants to get under the cap in 2018.
If nobody goes straight-up for Verlander, they’ll get creative. Might not even be reliable anymore.
The reports are that the Tigers want to trade him. If they do then waiting for someone else to decide they want him isn’t a great idea. You might not get a good offer.
When a business wants to draw in customers they don’t advertise that “Prices are very high.” No, they advertise that they have unbeatable prices. If the Tigers want to deal Verlander they want it to be known he can be had for something reasonable. Even if it isn’t.
Those unbeatable prices are due to high competition. You don’t make your product unnecessarily cheap. There aren’t a bunch of pitchers that need to go flying off shelfs. There’s only a handful.
This isn’t a weekly ad. JV isn’t a available in mass quantities. You don’t trade for the face of a franchise expecting not to pay. Verlander puts butts in the seats. If you don’t think that matters, you’re fooling yourself.
They aren’t expecting not to pay. JV is owed $28m a year through 2019. And pitchers owed that much money with 4.96 ERA’s aren’t hot commodities.
Detroit is delusional, no one wants to pay outrageous sums of money and also clear there farm systems for aging players who will most likely decline hard as most players do in older age.. if they want to add to there farm systems there gonna have to eat a good chunk of salary
What are you talking about? Historically teams that feel they’re one player away from a World Championship make moves like that all the time.
Right on the button. *W*
Do you think that other teams really think verlander is the one player they are lacking to be a championship team? Can you please provide examples where teams historically take on massive contracts like this and give up good prospects for under performing players?
The cubs are better off without getting verlander, they should move on to gray , archer or quintana
Especially since they gave up the farm to get Chapman last year. And it worked…depending on your definition of “worked”.
Archer isn’t going anywhere..check the standings.
Seriously! Why is he being brought up in every thread? He’s not getting traded.
Exactly..and being recommended for the Cubs by an Angels fan.
I mean if the rays did fall out of the standings , Archer or Cobb is a fit for the cubs
The Rays are opportunistic above all else. They have to be resourceful. They have Honeywell/Snell/Archer/Odorizzi/Faria/Cobb/Andriese all available to start in the big leagues. The Rays compete most years because they create surplus value. They don’t operate in a binary ‘sell/contend’ like most teams do.
Yes, if anybody offers them an incredibly stupid offer, they are going to take it. But assuming most GMs don’t offer anything too stupid, they aren’t going to trade their best, controllable, young pitcher for prospects during a year they have a good chance to make the playoffs or even win the division.
I haven’t followed baseball as close as I used to but wasn’t it not too long ago that Verlander had a really subpar season and people were talking like it was the end? It sounds like he rebounded nicely.
I think GMs are starting to wise up a bit. Nobody should sell the farm for 2017 Verlander.
A) would he really waive his NTC ? Probably only if the vesting option were guaranteed . B) Yankees maybe..? C) better shot in the offseason …somebody like the Phillies could offer a number of guys and install him at the top of their rotation without blinking
Well, I should quit writing what I think… cause I’m always wrong. The Tigers want the farm for Justin Verlander. I won’t bother saying anything about what I think about it because, well, I’m always wrong!
That’s ok Gary. Just focus on the next season for the Denver Nuggets
The Dodgers are absolute fools if they don’t go hard after Verlander.
JV would give them that extra push over the top toward a World Championship.
The Dodgers can afford him.
The Dodgers have high-level prospects with nowhere to put them on the Major League roster.
Verlander’s fiancee, Kate Upton, would welcome a move to L.A. And they already have a Beverly Hills mansion. The Dodgers would be getting a happy, motivated guy who feels at home and who should have won the American League Cy Young Award last year.
Dodgers can’t keep going so far over the cap. It will cost them more than just $ under the new CBA.
And where would Verlander fit into the Dodgers rotation? Based on performance, at this point he’s slot in nicely after Ryu and Maeda. That would make him the Dodgers’ #6.
Come on you’ve got to be kidding
Come on, try to answer the question.
If they trade for V..1-it’s the NL(change of scenery) 2-Ryu and Maeda aren’t exactly Drysdale and Sutton. 3 still has the stuff for the postseason vs who they have now=2 or 3 starter.
1. This is magical reasoning. Whatever is causing Verlander to be aggressively mediocre this season won’t change because he’s wearing a different uniform.
2. Ryu and Maeda are the Dodgers’ #4-5 starters, so they aren’t supposed to be Drysdale and Sutton. Verlander isn’t currently performing better than either of them.
3. The numbers say otherwise.
Well let’s see here he be going from the 27th team in terms of defensive efficiency to the number 1, from -10 in DRS to a +17, from one of the worst framing teams to a team with two elite framers.
Kind of sounds a little reminiscent of the remake Grienke had with a better def and catchers. Not saying that JV is performing like an ace right now, but like I’ve said in the past if they believe in his stuff and a change of scenery is needed then do it. Granted they should not up the world and would have to offload a contract or two, but I’m not sure I’d blink to place him over Maeda and Ryu. Dodger fans are also probably collectively holding their breathe in terms of BMac. So caliber of pitcher he easily slots in at 2. Performance well 3/4. It gets back to your favorite term of upside. Would I rather bet my money on JV being able to go to the post every 5th over Gray you bet I would. The problem with this crop of available SPs is there are only question marks.
See #1 not just change of scenery but LEAGUE..see history of pitchers traded. If not good luck with those two and go home early in Oct!
History not really borne out by statistics.
You probably don’t want to get me started on pitch framing. Anyway, is Verlander maybe better pitching for the Dodgers than for a defensively weak team? Sure, some. But his stats are pretty scary now, so getting him back to where he’s modestly effective is not exactly a bar I want to see the Dodgers break a sweat to jump over.
The way I look at it, the Dodgers are looking for someone to slot in between Kershaw and Wood. After that they have plenty of options, most of which don’t see much if any time pitching in the postseason. The available crop might be unimpressive but that doesn’t mean they have to pick someone just because.
@BlueSkyLA
Moving to the NL generally does help a pitcher’s stats because they get to face a pitcher once out of every 9 batters. Verlander also has a terrible defensive outfield behind him. Regardless, it just comes down to whether you think verlander can adjust again this season, just as he has in the past, or if he’s done. Given the fact that his stuff has still looked good and its really only been his control that has faded, I tend to think he’s an adjustment or two away. Most of the MLB GM’s must think the same otherwise they wouldn’t be inquiring about him.
If you look, really look, at the difference in offensive output between the AL and NL, the AL is higher but only in the low single digits, which is pretty much what you’d expect it to be given the math. So throw a small improvement for Verlander changing leagues into the mix and see if it looks so much better.
I don’t know how to define stuff, except by results. A walk rate nearly double his career rate, a WHIP half again higher. Control is the first order of business for a pitcher. Lose that and you have ugly stuff.
Still I don’t see it coming down to only the options you’ve suggested. Verlander could well be back on the beam next season. The problem with him moving to a contender is they will have to solve his problems in the pressure cooker environment of a pennant race, and if they fail at that, will have wasted an opportunity to get better. Since that’s what every contender wants to do, I see the market for Verlander being not as deep as the Tigers might hope.
By stuff, I meant the speed and movement on his pitches. The velocity is there, and so is the movement on his breaking balls. As you said, its his control that’s been off so far this year, but also keep in mind Verlander has made in season adjustments before. This is a player who is HOF caliber and knows how to pitch. He painted with 99mph. I’m sure he can make the necessary adjustments this time too, and so are other GMs, otherwise they wouldn’t be inquiring.
I do agree that the Tigers won’t get the opposing team to take the full contract and still receive 2 A prospects and 1 B level, but we don’t really know if and how much salary the Tigers would eat. If they eat 5M a year, we’re talking about a very significant return.
And that’s the same sentiment I have @Donnie.
@BlueSky
The first point I have is as long as their is a human element to the game pitching framer is going to hold some importance. It shouldn’t overwhelmingly be the most important aspect of a catcher but it’s a part. I’m not a big fan of it, but it exists and shouldn’t be ignored.
I think generally we are agreeing. You don’t make a move just to make a move. What I was pointing out is a devils advocate position. That position is namely based upon trusting you major league scouts and the major league staff which have done a pretty darn good job. If they feel his stuff is there and there are other circumstances that are playing into his performance that are likely to change or they can address then do it, if the price is right.
Everybody was ready to burry Hill, until the mechanical adjustment was made and he realized that his cu was elite enough to stop playing with smoke and mirrors. He added a cutter to go with his ability to run the fb in and up and now he’s recapturing form. So mechanical adjustments aren’t uncommon. It comes down to a team seeing something in a player that other teams might not. JV didn’t just lose it. Yeah his standard numbers would tell you he might. Really everything else has remained the same. Teams are inquiring for a reason. And I’m betting when he makes the mechanical change
Well sure, if the Tigers say Verlander is available, ordinary due diligence on the part of the other teams’ GMs means they need to at least talk to them. Detroit will ask for the stars and settle for the moon, but I question whether even the moon is achievable.
The Dodgers have one of the game’s top pitching coaches in Rick Honeycutt, so they may think they have what it takes to get Verlander back to his old self in a matter of weeks, something the Tigers could not do in three months. I honestly don’t know, but either way I think it would be a high dive into a paper cup. A nice trick if you can do it, but difficult and painful no matter what.
For sure we’re getting into the thick of one the most interesting phases of the baseball season. In July is where they are really won and lost.
haha it definitely is one of the most interesting parts of the baseball season. Hopefully its an active one! Good debate sir.
Ethier way I think they address the pen. A power LH late inning guy is a piece that is really needed at this point. It’s going to be a fun deadline unless it’s not. That being said the Dodgers are in a great position.
The dodgers really are in a great spot. Their depth is incredible.
One thing I don’t get it how Verlander gets this special boost from the NL, at least insofar as its unique. Wouldn’t every pitcher in the AL benefit from this? I don’t get how it’s a selling point if it’s true of every AL pitcher.
All the evidence is completely anecdotal. Statistically speaking a pitcher moving from the AL to the NL might get a small performance boost, but it’s within the margin of error.
It’s not just moving to the NL though. It’s also moving from a bad defensive team to a good one. Moving from an average/to below average (mccann) pitch framer to an above average one in LA.
That’s been discussed already. It would make some difference, but the short answer is it won’t fix Verlander’s control issues.
Lol Verlander would be #2 easily
LOL based on what?
His name obviously.
“A brand that anyone would be proud to drive.” ™
Verlander is 34 and has a 4.96 ERA and is owed a ton of money. He’s at an age where guys go downhill, so there’s no guarantee he’ll turn it around this season. The Dodgers have McCarthy and Kazmir if Ryu and Maeda don’t pan out. They really aren’t desperate.
Money can be addressed in the trade so that really isn’t the problem in moving him. The problem is he’s currently pitching at a journeyman level and that makes him a reclamation case, not an asset to be coveted by a contender. I’m not saying he’s broken at age 34, and he might well recover his previous form, but best-case scenario, somebody has to figure out what is wrong with his approach and try to fix it during the middle of a pennant race. So yeah the Tigers will be marketing the brand name, but GMs on contending teams will be looking to buy something a lot more tangible.
“Lol Verlander would be #2 easily” – I really hope this was supposed to be sarcasm.
except they don’t want to address the money according to this post
Justin has been hit hard by Cleveland and nobody else this year. His velocity is good, but his approach has changed. Throwing off speed in fastball counts and missing his target has really hurt him lately, but he was throwing a perfect game into the 7th two games ago before he gave up a bunt and hung a couple. Will a Chance to go deep into Fall with a new bullpen, a better Mgr, no DH, and a organizational mandate to win the Series be enough for him to waive his no trade? If it is, the Cubs or Dodgers will probably take a chance.
so you’re a tiger’s fan?
I don’t see how and why Verlander will be traded, specifically to the Dodgers. This year they aren’t running away with the division but have enough to win the division, and then lose in the playoffs, as suspected.
Dbacks could go further….
Cubs makes sense…
Verlander to Cubs with a return of,
-Schwarber (down year)
-Baez (Super Utility for Tigers)
-Almora (Plug the defensive hole)
I think that’s fair “ish”
the tigers can keep verlander, the cubs won’t budge on that. But I think the dbacks will win the west over the dodgers.
Of course you do!
Tigers would love that. Dump $70 million in salary, and add three players.
That’s not gonna happen, Cubs won’t make that kind of trade for Verlander and his contract
This would even be a steep asking price for Q/Arch/Gray.
No way is it happening with JV, especially when Schwarber’s OPS at AAA is pushing 1.200.
The Cubs are trying to stay competitive and you think they could gut the MLB roster and still manage to go deep into the playoffs?
if you think that is “fairish” you really don’t understand player valuation.
Verlander for addison Russell. Boom.
*bam,bang,ouch!
Of course they are going to ask for a big return on Verlander. First, all the TIgers have said publicly about payroll is that they will not pay luxury tax three years in a row. That will happen in 2018 naturally through expiring contracts. They do not have to move Verlander to do that. The only thing that would change that is if Chris Ilitch tells Avila to slash it further. Has not done that…..yet. Second, he still brings in fans to the Tigers so he is a bankable player for them during a rebuilding. They are still on a pace attendance wise to top $2M fans this year and having big stars like Verlander and Cabrera will keep that number up while remaking the club. So it makes no sense for the Tigers to let him go for a meager return. Third, while having an off year, he has shown flashes of the old Verlander often enough to suggest that he could be a key piece for a playoff run for some team. And while he is expensive, he comes with two more years for whomever gets him, so he can also help if the team is looking at contending for the next 2-3 years. Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, seem most likely teams that could use him and can afford to pay him.. 27 days to see if one of them can make a deal with the Tigers. Would not surprise me if he is traded, but would not surprise me if he says put either.
Given how he’s performed this year and the mileage on his body, a lot of teams probably see the extra 2-3 years as more of a deterrent to trading for Verlander than anything.
It may be time for Verlander to pull a Dennis Eckersley/John Smoltz and try his hand at closing.
Would be better than whatever the Nats choose to throw out in the 8th and 9th..
Please. Get real
Keep dreaming on that trade. Maybe one of them but all three?? No way
A lot of people seem to be out of touch with salaries or they hope that by trashing a guy on the internet they can drive the price down. Scherzer is due to make $42M in two years. Kershaw 33 grienke 32, Price 30, King Felix 26, Lester 25, CC 25 this year. How many have pitched better tha Verlander over the last 24 months?
all except cc and Felix were better this year
24 months. This year is only half over.
OK, Yanks give you CC , Headley, and Mateo for Verlander.
Nobody wants Headley.
from 2015 til today
Kershaw, Scherzer, Price, Lester and Grienke have all been better.
So 5 of 7 have pitched better by fwar.
You’re missing the point. Verlander has pitched near or at that level for the past two years.
You deliberately picked half a year when Verlander was recovering from Core muscle surgery. Stick with 24 months.
When you evaluate him, you’re also supposed to remove his stinkers this year against teams like Cleveland, Houston and Minnesota. You know, playoff caliber teams. According to Tiger fans, that will give you a much better idea of just how great Verlander still is when you attempt to acquire him for the stretch run and potentially as a playoff pitcher.
Guess the Braves are out of that running. I really hope we don’t make a push for Sonny Gray although extremely talented he is quite injury prone
When they do make a trade, I expect them to go for someone younger with more control.
JV isn’t worth $28 milion a year. so why would teams give up tons of prospects to acquire a bad contract.
Amen. Why would a team give up prospects for an expensive 34-year old pitcher when they could get Gray, Quintana or Archer for same (or close) prospect cost and less money?
Because he has had big game post season success. If you want to win it all you have to take some risk.
You’d also like to have a pitcher who’s actually won a championship if their supposed qualities include ‘big game post season success’.
If he’s not worth the 28 million, why are teams inquiring at all?
Dodger have the money but do have cap issues – if they go into the bidding and even though they would assume all that $$$, my thoughts might be they’d need more than what they’d need to get Gray – probably Verdugo, anyone from the active roster except Bellanger, Kershaw, Jansen or Seager and an arm from the farm system
Stop with the non sense for Sonny Gray. We’re not talking about Sale or even a lesser tier of Archer. We’re talking about Sonny freaking Gray. You’re not trading Turner, Wood, or Baez. They probably aren’t trading Pederson at his lowest value. They have a farm system for a reason. A farm system by the way that is deep enough to obtain a substantial arm without opening up a major hole on the MLB roster. This isn’t fantasy baseball.
Then the Dodgers would be absolutely foolish to pursue JV.
The Mariners need another starter and can afford to add one more big contract, I don’t know if they will want to use all flexibility on Verlander, but I think he would fit well with how his contract is compared to the rest of the core. If they work out all the contract details, the Mariners will probably have the prospects to get a trade done.
I see Verlander landing in Houston or Dodger blue.
I thought maybe the Tigers had come back to reality, but I guess not. Thliey are a declining team like the Yanks and Phils were a few years ago. The Yanks have done a great job turning it around and the Phils are in the process. I think Avila needs to realize he insn’t getting full value for any of his players, it’s time to bite the bullet.
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How in the world are Phillies turning things around? Please let us know!
I mean, he is arguably the best pitcher the tigers have ever had, and a definite HOF’er. Is there any reason why they have to trade him in the first place? Isn’t that kinda what the no-trade clause was for in the first place? Maybe Verlander just wants to keep his legacy in Detroit?
If you mention anything about the Cubs trading Jimenez/Schwarber/Baez…etc. Then Cubs fans are gonna go Nuts. Its either no way….hes untouchable….or thats the next Babe Ruth
Future is c contreras 1b rizzo 2b Baez ss Russell of (3)happ almora heyward schwarber Jimenez. Can’t play them all. For archer Quintana they would trade them. I still like to play this year out and just throw money at darvish Lynn cueto Cobb Tanaka Arietta . Arietta had strong start and hope he turns it around. As a Cub fan no other team fans understand but trading Torres for chapman and putting them in a better position to break 108 year drought it was worth it. Now I would hate to trade any of our future for Verlander. It’s hard to repeat for world championships . 1976 Reds last NL team to do it. I do think Cubs will do things at trade deadline to improve while cards and brew crew stay idle .
They should be untouchable in a trade for verlander where detroit refuses to offset any contract.
I understand that your team is bad and always irrelevant in Chicago, but it’s just sad that you spend more time ripping on the cubs than paying attention to your own team. Especially in this instance, where you (incorrectly) insinuate that it is unreasonable to refuse trading those guys for Verlander and his full contract.
Chesteraarthur lol someone who trolls comments and acts like he knows more than everyone
You obviously dont comprehend much. Because i never rip on the cubs and im referring to cubs fans who in every trade rumor thread. You will find at least a hand full of cubs fans that say cubs will not trade Shwarber and jimenez because he is the next Giacarlo Stanton lol
Chesteraarthur lol you understand that the whitesox are bad… this is not news!!! and you say irrelevant to Chicago lol as a cubs fan do you watch the game and say to yourself WoW were so relevant in Chicago. Grow up. Im a whitesox fan. Im not gonna say im a cubs fan cause there more relevant in Chicago
My whole point to the comment is .. theres NO way the cubs are getting a pitcher of Archer/Quintana caliber. Without giving up Jimenez or Shwarber. Like it or not
I don’t think what you’re saying is controversial or even necessary. Of course the Cubs are going to have to give up quality assets if they want to acquire quality assets.
As the article says “it only take one” .
He isn’t worth a top prospect without some salary offset. However, a switch to the NL and some improved defense behind him should help.
Wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded to LA and put up an ERA around 3.50 the rest of the season.
Lol. Tigers are going to be the next 2014 Phillies.
They already got Fulmer, Norris and Boyd…. Their SS, 3rd Baseman, CF and C are all young.
They have already started the rebuild. This is not the 2014 Phiillies.
Bro, if they were actually rebuilding, JV would go to the highest bidder at the deadline, period. No “But we want actual prospects and to not eat salary!” That ain’t happening. Just trade all the old, expensive, underperforming guys now. But they won’t do that and a year from now they will be the 2014 Phillies. Them and the Angels.
They said they were the 2014 Phillies in 2012.; Ain’t happened yet.
The 2014 Phillies hadn’t happened yet in 2012
Hey with Sonny Gray the only decent pitcher available you never know what teams will over pay to get
Tigers could get 5 solid prospects and not have to cover any of his salary, if they pair JV up with Fulmer as a package deal.
He just got engaged too. Maybe he would be open to moving.
Although I’m undervaluing the amount of prospect capital it would cost alot of people on here are forgetting one key factor it is only a 2 year commitment after this that 3rd year is only for a top 5 cy young finish in 2019 which would make it worth it for any team. A two year commitment keeps teams that might not want to bid in the off-season for an areitta, tanaka, darvish now they get a shorter deal while getting him right now i.e cubs get him now And let arrieta walk. And although Detroit starts off saying they won’t contribute any $ that could change even slightly under the right deal.
With so many teams still in the hunt for the playoffs. And almost every team needing pitching. The Tigers might find a team desperate enough that they will over pay not knowing if they will have the same opportunity to make the playoffs next year. The Diamond Backs are a perfect example of that. Gray is always hurt. So the other options is to get a rental for the rest of the season. And hope that you can resign him.
Tigers don’t really need to trade him. They have plenty of time this offseason or even next offseason, if they don’t move him now.
They DO need to trade JD Martinez. They got Fulmer for Cespedes. JD is every bit as good as Cespedes.
The market dictates the asking price. If Darvish becomes available that lowers the ask for JV. The White Sox still could be looking to move Q. The Rangers could even dangle Hamels for the right price. Point is there could be 2 front of the line pitchers available (JV & Q), or 4+.
Forgot to mention Sonny Gray
White Sox still definitely looking to move Q but they’ve said publicly it will cost a lot.
So Verlander’s asking price is as high as his ERA. I’m sure all of these Ivy League GMs are lining up to sign an aging, $28M/yr SP having a poor year for the stretch run all while depleting a bit of their farm system. Ace? Ha not this year, they better include a flux capacitor in the deal. If the Tigers are ever able to move that k, it will likely be in an off-season transaction.
why are teams asking then?
Due diligence to identify if Al Avila is running a 501(c)(3).
Bunch of idiots on this board. Do a little research on Verlander before you automatically assume he’s washed up. He’s was the best pitcher in the AL last year… Yeah, let’s just give him up for nothing. He’s had three bad starts this year, that has inflated his ERA.
And it no way are we close to the Phillies. I’ve been hearing that since 2013. Everyone is off the books after 2018, besides 1 year of JV and Miggy. And I’ll take my chances Miggy is still productive in his late 30s, especially when he can stay healthy and move to DH.
Nothing screams bright future like a team that is currently 3rd worst in the AL, has a bottom 5 farm system and owes $138 million to 5 players next year and $111 million to 4 players in 2019. Even better, 3 of those 5 will be 35 or older and 3 of 5 are well below average players right now. You should hope that Avila has some dirt on other GMs and can swing this pipe dream he has for Verlander, because I’m not sure if I could come up with 3 other teams right now that have a bleaker looking future at this moment.
Reds, Angels, Marlins and Royals, maybe?
You wouldn’t be giving him up for nothing. Getting his $28m per year off the books will help the Tigers quite a bit.
28 million to do what with? Sign another, not as good veteran? The Tigers are going to need someone for their fans to latch onto if they trade the face of the franchise for the last decade.
Verlander only will be traded once he notifies the front office he wants to or the tigers approach him on a offer that sends him to a contender that gives him a chance to get the world series.
To people posting that he might not be worth “top prospects” keep in mind the free agent contracts of starting pitching that is the top arms available.
It will cost more in prospects to acquire a Gray, Quintana or Archer than a Verlander would in a trade.
Archer is staying put at least until his options come up & even then he will cost the trading team top prospects if traded.
Martinez, Miggy, Kinsler, Verlander & Iglesis would provide a good return to accelerate a rebuild.
Wilson,. maybe Upton, Avila, and maybe even A Wilson have value as well.
JV was the best pitcher in the AL last year. He was robbed of a Cy Young last year because two Tampa writers left him off the ballot. He beat Porcello in every category except wins and the non-Red Sox jersey he wears.
He has also been a top pitcher this year except for three terrible games against the Indians. Fluke or just get him to the National league and he will be fine?
Figure that the Cubs will trade one of Schwarber/Happ/Jimenez for starting pitching at some point. They can’t all fit in the lineup.
Obviously his worst three starts of the year count, but I think it has been overblown in this thread how badly he has performed. Remember, by most non-voter accounts, this was the best pitcher in the A.L. last season. Anyway, back to his three worst starts. Take them away and these are his numbers this season:
ERA: 3.39
WHIP: 1.33
K/9: 8.89
HR Allowed: 4 in 85 IP
It’s apparent his command has been off this season compared to years past, but as has been mentioned he has a history of making terrific in-season adjustments. Personally I think it’s short sighted to assume he’s on a sharp career decline. As for his contract, that’s another thing that’s being overblown. $28 million is a healthy sum, no doubt, but the term is reasonable – only two more years. If he hits the vesting option I’d imagine the team that acquired him will be pleased to get another year added. So perhaps the Tigers offer to cover a bit of the contract or take back a bad contract in return, or maybe they don’t have to. Either way they will get a substantial return or they simply won’t trade him, which wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.
FWIW, not everybody is arguing that Verlander is either a few tinkers and a change of scenery away from being his old self, or on a sharp career decline. Reality is rarely so binary. And the reality here is that he and his coaches in Detroit have been unable to address whatever problems he’s been having in half a season. Expecting another team to get it fixed in a few weeks is pretty unrealistic.
Nice comment Van. JV has also been one of the most reliable arms in baseball. If the Tigers do trade either him, or Miggy and fail to get fair value back, they may as well lay off all the employees in the ticket office, because they won’t be needing them.
Perfectly sensible starting point in a negotiation. They may add Alex Avila to a deal to sweeten the return.
So many of you don’t get that when you are going for it all and there’s a horse out there, you get him. Prospects and money be damned. Windows are Short to win it all. Dodgers went cheap last year, held on to prospects and they crashed a burned. Their prize rookie pitcher got hurt this year and had they traded him for Sale, they might have won it. You go all in or not at All!