The Marlins aren’t thinking about firing manager Ozzie Guillen, but are expected to continue discussing potential trades in the week leading up to the MLB trade deadline, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports. The 45-51 Marlins sent Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante to Detroit yesterday, signaling that they don’t expect to contend in 2012. Here are more of Rosenthal’s notes…
- Hanley Ramirez could be the next player traded, Rosenthal reports. The Marlins tried to send the third baseman to Boston last week and they’re still open to moving him.
- The Marlins figure to shop Heath Bell aggressively, even though he’s just four months into a three-year contract.
- Teams covet Josh Johnson, who’s under contract for 2013.
- Ichiro Suzuki is “a lot better than you think” once you take defense and baserunning into consideration, one executive tells Rosenthal. The Yankees acquired the veteran outfielder from Seattle yesterday.
- The Rangers would love to obtain a top-of-the-rotation starter, but they believe they could address their rotation issues internally if necessary. Cole Hamels will be atop the Rangers’ list of potential targets if the Phillies don’t re-sign him.
- The Phillies are indicating to other teams that they’re eager to move Hunter Pence. The right fielder will remain under team control through 2013, when he’s expected to obtain a raise and earn $13-14MM.
- Rosenthal mentioned this yesterday, but it’s worth repeating: the Nationals are among the teams interested in Zack Greinke.
Why do the Nats “need” Greinke?
Nats don’t need Greinke and shouldn’t overpay for a rental.
As a Rangers fan there is no such thing as over paying if you can win it all.
The Rangers are in a slightly different position than the Nats. The Rangers are at a peak these past couple of years and want to strike while the iron remains hot. The Nats are still climbing the mountain, and overpaying while they’re still climbing may not be wise.
and I know there are no guarantees but I would give up our entire farm system for one ring. And that was my point, it is not overpaying if you win it all.
But this is baseball – most teams are not in a position to win every year, even if it looks like their foreseeable future is set. Example: Last year’s Reds were “far and away the best team in the NL Central” according to most “experts,” and yet they ended up being mediocre at best. Any time a team looks like they’re postseason bound, they should make an effort to strengthen their chances through trades. Maybe you don’t give up your top guys, but you definitely play for now. If you stand pat once, you could end up finding yourself ostensibly standing pat for another decade.
I never heard a single expert say that. I heard 3 team race to the finish line, but never that the Reds were actually the best. I had them 3rd on my list.
How soon they forget. I can’t post a link to ESPN, but if you go to their 2011 season preview, you’ll find the vast majority of their experts picked the Reds. In fact, I remember an article where some nameless executives purportedly said that out of all the divisions, the NL Central was definitely going to be the least competitive because the Reds were so good. I can’t find it now, but I think it was a Gammons article.
And did you have the Cardinals first, card2WS. You’re probably not biased.
I had the Brewers as the “best” team. The Cardinals had ?’s with Berkman, Waino was out all year, and we went into the season knowing we had a terrible D. In 2011 I didn’t believe in the Reds pitching. Though those 3 were all close.
I replied to this earlier, but I guess it’s not going to be approved. Just check the ESPN 2011 preview: 27 of 45 “experts” picked the Reds to win the NL Central. I think one knob took the Astros, and maybe another two took the Cubs. The other 15 were split between the Cards and Brewers. I also remember a Gammons article, which I can no longer find, saying that the talent discrepancy between the Reds and the rest of the division was greater than that of any other division in baseball… at least this is what his sources labeled as “executives” had to say. I remember this, because as a Brewer fan, I thought “what on earth are they going on about?”
Oh, I hadn’t read or heard either of those. I still don’t know why they would pick the Reds, and it was most certainly not a “big” talent differential.
Because they’re going to shut down Strasburg soon.
So basically there having Greinke as insurance for 6 starts? Who goes out from the rotation before that, when both Greinke and Stras are pitching?
That’s the toughest question to answer. Detweiler to the bullpen makes some sense, but he’s pitching really well right now. 6-man rotation is something they’ve been resistant to before because it throws the guys off a bit, and skipping starts doesn’t accomplish much either.
“Need” is much to strong a word if you take everything they’ve said before at face value. Fair to assume they might want him longer-term, though, so if they believe they can extend him it would make sense (depending on the price). Even if you think you can get him in FA, having him down the stretch should help.
God I hope he’s right about Pence.
Man, if the Reds could find a way to acquire Pence and put him at Leadoff/CF that would be amazing! Has he ever played CF before in his years with Houston and Phillies? What do you think such a trade would take?
First, I don’t think they have the pieces. Second, Pence is neither a CF or leadoff. Third, I think you meant Victorino.
as a phillies fan, I’d swap Vic and Stubbs right now. I’d take hamilton off your hands for Pence straight up as well.
haha, who is that executive? Ichiro is a lot better than I think? His WAR is 0.2. He’s nothing more than a bench player.
It says once you factor in his baserunning (you know, the 16 of 18 SB and ability to go 1st to 3rd and beat out IF scribbles) and his great defense in RF (+15.6 UZR).
What’s interesting about Ichiro is that most of his peripherals make you think he’s still the same hitter as he’s always been except that he’s not putting the ball on the ground as much as he use to.
2011 GB% was 60%. 2012 is 48%. He’s still hitting the ball harder (26% LD in 2012 vs 20% career LD%) this year and he doesn’t KO any more than usual (9.4% in 2012 vs 9.3% career).
I think if he realizes he doesn’t have to perform miracles on this team and if he will take a few extra pitches then we’ll see a much better hitter. He certainly wouldn’t be the first great player who had a rejuvenation once they left a horrible team to join a better team.
Ichiro’s offensive WAR is 0.2. Defensive WAR is 0.9. Total WAR is 1.1. Contrast this with Mariners short stop Brendan Ryan, who despite hitting .186 has accounted for 0.3 Offensive WAR and an amazing 2.9 defensive WAR. Ryan has actually contributed more to the Mariners this season than Ichiro, and at 1/10th the cost. Ichiro was a valuable player through 2010, but has barely been more than a replacement level player since. Maybe having a chance to win a ring will rejuvenate him some, but he’s 38 and his best days are long behind him.
But who cares? The Yanks gave up nothing for him and we are only concerned with what he can do in a limited role over the next 3 months. It’s a small price to pay for what might turn out to be a big return.
Hunter Pence, Pirates?
It would cost then Marte, but would be worth it to protect Cutch.
Would either cost them Marte and a low level young arm or would cost them Cole or Taillon and young OF. Pence asking price is very, very high along with Victorino’s.
yes please!
the phillies need / want low level arms like they need loses.
Yeah i’m not too crazy about it either but its what i’ve heard. You may hear OF Robbie Grossman in a deal for Pence
Disclaimer: Despite being a Yankee fan I’m not oblivious to the economics of baseball outside of NYC.
The Marlins are the most disappointing team in baseball. Dissapointing not because of their wins and losses but because they continuously short change their fans and show a lack of commitment towards winning. I absolutely understand their decision to trade Sanchez and Infante as one may be too expensive for them to retain after this year and the other probably wouldn’t be the toughest to replace. They did get a player who probably becomes their #1 prospect in Jacob Turner and the fact that he’s mlb ready and can step into the rotation immediately is a good move. Trading Hanley is disappointing more for the fans but I can probably live with that if they can get a bat back in return that can help immediately. That probably won’t happen as his value is so low right now.
Trading Bell, Johnson, etc sends a message to the fans and the city of Miami that says “thanks for helping us get the new stadium. We gave it a shot and after 3 months of mediocre/poor play we have decided to blow it up and trade away and everyone who we feel can bring us back cheaper assets”. How about giving it more than 1 season to compete….smh.
PS-I live in Miami now so I feel as if i can say that most fans I know think this was all a farce.
The Marlins are the most evil franchise in baseball as far as I’m concerned. People get worked up and furious about the Yankees even though they don’t break any rules. Even though their offseason spending has been at a minimum over the past few years, even though they’re lowering payroll (albeit back to the rest of the pack) but at the end of the day they have owners who put a contender on the field and spend accordingly. At the end of the day they do what any fan would want of their owners. Following the rules, spending on the product and because of this, fans have high expectations every year and then get labeled “elitist” and “arrogant”.
Meanwhile the Marlins pocket all of their profit, bend the taxpayers over to get a new stadium and then have a firesale as soon as that bottom line shifts a little bit.
You pick who is better for the sport.
/Rant over.
I just want to point out the ridiculousness of your “back to the rest of the pack” comment. Going by the USA Today numbers, the Yankees spend over $20M more than the 2nd and 3rd highest payroll teams, over $40M more than the 4th highest team and over $65M more than the 5th highest payroll team. You could add the 10th and 11th highest payroll teams together and still be $3M shy of the Yankees payroll. There are a lot of teams that should spend more, but there’s no defending a team that spends more than two times what the 10th highest payroll team spends.
You want me to defend them? Find me a rule they broke.
There was talk A-Rod was going to walk when he opted out and I believe Cashman would have allowed it. Instead an owner no longer in power gave him an absurd contract that has been a sunken cost for the better part of it and will only get worse. If it makes you feel better, that over 20 million is producing no difference on the field.
Secondly, again, I don’t need to defend something that didn’t do anything wrong. Neither of us have access to books so we don’t know how much teams have that they pocket instead but what I can tell you is owners aren’t exactly living paycheck to paycheck so my assumption would be they can prob all afford to drop more money into payroll, the only thing the fan benefits from. If not, they need to be relocated because no business man in his right mind would stay invested in something he’s not making a ton of profit on, so don’t give me a sob story.
I am a Ranger fan and hate what the Yankees spend but they have done it within the rules and have continued to have a profit. If I could buy stock in them, I would. If spending that amount of money meant they got a championship every year then I would have an issue but it doesn’t. They put a great product on the field and that puts butts in seats. I probably understand this more now as my team spends a lot and our TV deal hasn’t even kicked in yet. I would much rather be a fan of a team willing to continually get better than one that sheds payroll every chance they get. As much as there should be a cap on the high end, there should be a floor on the low end.
But by a wide margin New York is a bigger market. The Yankees could certainly afford a much bigger payroll.
But you can’t base competitive advantage on market size.
The Braves should make a run at Hanley, he could play SS the rest of the year and take over at 3rd next season.
He’s a headcase but then again he got Fredi G. fired…
Jerry Crasnick
@jcrasnick
Sources say Ryan Dempster had given preliminary indications that he would accept a trade to the #braves from #cubs
What message is sent about 2013 to the fans if the Phillies decide to trade Pence? I mean, I get that they need to find a way to afford Hamels along with the other two $20 mil a year pitchers but the thing that’s hurting this team is their offense. Is there realistic reasons to expect Howard and Utley to return to form next year? And are there any better options than Pence in the FA market that would be any cheaper than what he’s set to make in 2013? Odd reasoning imo if they decide to trade him. Unless they have some deal worked out for a Lee for a bat in mind and even then that’s still questionable.,
The message: Dominic Brown is going to get the chance to sink or swim in the OF and we’ll spend Pence’s 13M on another bat or badly needed bullpen help.
So a contending team is going to trade a young proven bat and replace him with a younger unproven bat or use that $13 mil to replace him via FA? Right. What are the odds of finding a comparable bat for the same price? Probably not. If anything a good bat will require more of a long term financial commitment. Also, spending parts of that $13 ml on the bullpen seems like a poor use of funds considering they have so much tied into Paps already. A bullpen is the one thing you can put together on the cheap.
Pence is the one player they should be unwilling to trade.
Or? I believe you meant “and”.
And you can spend $13M on offense without signing a Free Agent – it’s called a trade. But not watching the team closely, you don’t see that the bullpen is a bigger issue then the offense. Middle of the pack in runs with barely anything from Utley and Howard. And I’m not suggesting an $10M reliever – just 2-3 of the “cheap” guys you described, which should still leave you a little cash for help elsewhere.
You’re completely and totally wrong about Pence.
I don’t unerstand why everyone still says the Phillies offence is their biggest weakness. I mean that was true in April but recently it’s been their bullpen, yes, but also their starters have not been as dominant as they used to be. I understand Halladay is rehabing but Lee is most definately underachieving. When he is getting paid 20 million a year I expect to see him allow 1-2 maybe 3 runs here and there, 4-6 is terrible for a man of his level.
Phillies in July.
10 of 17 games they’ve scored 3 runs or less. In those 10 games they are 2-8. The two wins they won 3-2 vs the Dodgers.
Again….what is easier to build? A good offense or a good bullpen? just because Amaro has failed at building a good bullpen certainly doesn’t mean that it can’t be done. For example.
Take Mo and Soriano out of the equation for a second and the Yanks have..
Robertson w/ a 2.19 FIP
Logan w/ a 3.64 FIP
Rapada w/ a 3.26 FIP
Eddpley w/ a 3.79 FIP
Phelps w/ a 4.06 FIP (3.06 ERA)
That’s about 150 IP worth of mid-3’s FIP for the collective 2012 salary of about $5.5 mil.
Meanwhile, your offense is NOT good and you should cease to think that it is. Middle of the pack doesn’t mean good and there’s little reason to think that Howard and Utley should be counted on to change anything.
April team OBP and OPS = .293/.640
May ” ” ” = .339/.776
June ” ” ” = .320/.745
July ” ” ” = .291/.667
Those are not good numbers and they have been awful with only a decent May to speak of. Since June 1st they have scored 4 runs or less in 27 of their 45 games and their records is 16-29 in those two months.
You have Ruiz who is 33 and clearly having a career year. You have Pierre at 34 who has the 2nd highest OBP behind Ruiz and is headed out the door and Pence who leads your team in HR and RBI. Other than those 3 you have a collection of journeyman having what can be expected and veterans that are under performing. You have 6 players getting 200 or better AB’s that have OBP’s under .314. For an NL East team how do you justify not addressing that as a bigger concern over middle relief?
the message they are sending is that they want to make a run next year and get value back for a guy who they shouldn’t have traded for in the first place, and should under no cuircumstances pay 15mm a year for next season or after.
The question I was asking is by trading Pence aren’t they in a sense retooling and isn’t asking a bit much to expect them to trade Pence, sign Hamels and add enough offense to the team to compete in 2013?
Who are the difference makers they can acquire as a FA w/o further swelling the payroll? Where are the prospects that they can flip to acquire an impact bat? If anything they need to add to Pence and not subtract.
Honestly…I would rather use Ruiz as a trade chip as he’s having a career year, is am easy acquisition for a team because he’s productive and CHEAP and his contract ends in 2013 at the age of 35 when you probably don’t want to extend him. Trade him to a contending team desperate for some offense at that position and get you a mlb ready bat.
Ruiz to the Angels for Bourjos and Cowart doesn’t sound absurd.
Would also send Vic and J Roll out asap especially if you can get some to pay 3/4 of Rollins salary.
and there are plenty of cheaper options on the market next year, and believe it or not, most of the phillies fan base would be happy to see him traded for value. especially if they replace him with a 3Bman.
I think after his performance this year, they’ve decided he’s not the guy they want to build around long term. That, and he’s getting really expensive. He’s not worth $15 million +.
I’d be in favor of a minor sell off (which is really all it could be since other than Lee, Vic, Pence, Hamels, and Rollins) nobody else really has any type of value. Really at this point, I want them to sign Cole Hamels and retool the team for next year.