8:28pm: The deal is in the $70-75MM range, Rosenthal tweets.
6:20pm: The sides are "very close" on a five-year extension worth north of $60MM, reports Rosenthal (Twitter links).
4:29pm: Both sides are "very optimistic" and terms are "all but finalized," Strauss tweets. The deal's average annual value would likely exceed $10MM, Strauss reports. Resolution is expected this week.
2:47pm: "We are making progress and hopefully we can work something out," Yadier Molina's agent Melvin Roman said to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports today, regarding contract extension talks for the Cardinals catcher. Rosenthal's sources say the Cards "likely are willing to give him a deal of four and possibly five years." The FOX writer expects a salary in the $10-12MM range.
On Friday, Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch tweeted, "Movement on Molina is significant enough that a source familiar with the situation believes an agreement could be reached within a week." Earlier, Roman indicated Molina did not want to negotiate during the season, according to Strauss. The Cardinals open the season April 4th at the Marlins' new ballpark.
with no long term answer in line behind Yadi, a weak market for catchers coming up, and a pitching coach not named Duncan, all signs point that this will get done…
Cards really don’t have another option. It’s do or die.
Do or Die???? I am pretty sure the St. Louis Cardinals will survive with or without Yadier Molina. C’Mon Man!!!
Meaning get it done in the spring or he’s gone. Probably didn’t make that clear.
Montero, Napoli & Russell Martin are FA ‘s at the end of this season.
Martin isn’t close to Yadi. Nap and Montero are likely to be extended.
No more likely than Yadi…. Martin would look just fine in a Cardinal jersey if push comes to shove.
Russel Martin is a good back up option, and by that I mean a backup catcher.
Pretty sure any catcher coming off a 3.1 WAR isn’t going to be a backup anywhere.
he’s no Yadier, but settle down
he’s no Yadier, but settle down
5 years at $10 million per year seems a bit of a gamble for a defense first catcher. While Molina’s offensive numbers aren’t bad for a catcher, his bat wouldn’t play well at first base or in the outfield if his knees give way.
Because of what he means to the Cardinals organization, I can understand the thought, but I think this could hurt longterm if the rumors are accurate.
Why? We have the money.
“We have the money”
I think Jim Hendry said the same thing before signing Soriano. The Mariners had the money to sign Chone Figgins. The Giants weren’t exactly cash-strapped when inking Barry Zito.
“We have the money” is a terrible reason to sign a bad deal. I’m not saying that this would be a bad deal, but it is a gamble, and it could end up hurting. If nothing else, that $10 million you’re paying in 2016 could be the difference between Kyle Lohse and Adam Wainwright in the starting rotation. If Molina is still productive, it may be worth it. If his knees are gone, you’re in trouble.
“I think Jim Hendry said the same thing before signing Soriano. The Mariners had the money to sign Chone Figgins. The Giants weren’t exactly cash-strapped when inking Barry Zito”
Soriano and Zito signed franchise altering contracts. Yadi’s contract isn’t going to be monumental and the Cardinals will be fine with it even if the last year or two he isn’t what he is today. If it’s only 5 years, it’s likely Yadi will be able to catch into his age 35 season. The Figgins contract isn’t killing the Mariners, it’s that they have NO offense. They have money to spend, if they can find a free agent that will take it to go there.
My thoughts exactly.
I’ll put it another way, that maybe is easier to understand. I am not opposed to Molina, and I’m not saying it is a bad deal. But at the time of its signing, Kyle Lohse signed a market deal with the Cardinals. If he weren’t under contract this year, they could have signed Oswalt instead.
Even “smaller” deals can be risky and hurt a team long term. I have no reason to doubt Molina will be catching five years from now, but it is no guarantee. His bat doesn’t play at any other position, though, so if he can’t catch effectively, he’s a waste of $10M
absolutely he would be a waste of $10MM if he can’t catch. I’m not sure why you think Roy Oslwalt will be THAT much better than Kyle Lohse. When Lohse is healthy, he’s a solid pitcher. Still a poor comparison.
I totally 100% agree with you….
I’m glad you are not JohnM then. I have no interest in watching Bryan Anderson try to catch in the big leagues for the next three years. 5/$50MM is not that bad for a really good catcher. It’s still short enough that he *should be able to catch into the final year.
Delete. never firgured my original post would make it here after going to be reviewed.
Have some faith!
– ECB
Aside from the fact that the Cardinals have no one close in the pipeline to replace him, and the pitching staff worship him, there is a psychological factor involved too. After losing Pujols, losing Molina would be a big PR nightmare for the Cardinals. Pay him.
^^^This. Especially regarding the pitching staff.
You can deal with the lack of offense (though he’s not nearly as bad as some) since he’s the best defensive catcher and handles the starters and bullpen wonderfully. Pay the guy!
Couldn’t agree more. There is a reason that Carp will only let Molina catch for him.
Carp don’t have any say so as to who catches him…. C’Mon man. These are management decisions.
I’m sure he has a say in Molina or the back up when he pitches.
They actually talked about it a few times last year. Yadi needed a break, but Carp was scheduled to pitch so he had to wait a day. They said they typically like to put younger guys with younger guys. It’s courteous to both the pitcher and catcher. You wouldn’t want to be Tony Cruz out there catching for Carp. I mean, if you think about it, the veteran catchers that have been working with the same pitchers for seasons upon seasons are going to know what pitches are their strongest, weakest, etc.
Carp don’t have any say so as to who catches him…. C’Mon man. These are management decisions.
Couldn’t agree more. There is a reason that Carp will only let Molina catch for him.
Aside from the fact that the Cardinals have no one close in the pipeline to replace him, and the pitching staff worship him, there is a psychological factor involved too. After losing Pujols, losing Molina would be a big PR nightmare for the Cardinals. Pay him.
i’d agree if we had a better way to evaluate catcher defense. it’s a pretty sure bet that our current metrics undervalue it quite a bit – and yadier is as good as it gets behind the plate
Something to keep in mind when judging the contract: the “5th” year essentially is a reworking of his deal for the current year (at $7 mil). (They tried doing the same thing with Pujols last spring — replacing the final year of the old contract with terms of the new one to help it seem more impressive.) So 5 for $50 is really more like 4 for $43 + this year.
or 4 for about $68M, as it turns out
Something to keep in mind when judging the contract: the “5th” year essentially is a reworking of his deal for the current year (at $7 mil). (They tried doing the same thing with Pujols last spring — replacing the final year of the old contract with terms of the new one to help it seem more impressive.) So 5 for $50 is really more like 4 for $43 + this year.
He is probably taking some bad advice from his buddy Albert
I wouldn’t normally give catchers 5 year deals since there more likely to injury, but I really like this deal for the Cardinals. He’s been durable for the most part and he’s one of if not the best defensive catchers in baseball. If you can have a catcher who is great with the pitching staff and had great defence (and can hit a little bit) then it’s worth the investment.
Great news for the Cardinals. With no true replacement anywhere in the minors, this is the only thing that makes sense. Hope it gets done..
Brian McCann likes this.
you got that right…
5 years and 60 seems quite excessive.
He is worth every penny
5 years and 60 seems quite excessive.
beautiful
Wow. If its 70-75 Mil, its a definite overpayment for a defense first catcher.
Huge overpayment.
maybe an option 6 year i am guessing
That would make it better…but still too much for a catcher that will turn 30 the year the deal starts.
maybe an option 6 year i am guessing
Seems like an overpay. Are there any catches apart from Mauer even in that range?
Coming from a huge Cardinal fan, I am extremely relieved to see Yadi Molina resigned. His new raise is well deserved!
Cardinals will overpay to keep one of the Cardinal stars on the team for the long-term. Sort of a message to fans saying “We’re sorry about Pujols, but Yadier’s here at least.” $15M is ridiculous, and I love Yadi.
Wow. Glad he’ll be back for awhile but this is to much. 12.4 per was my ceiling for him. Even though he likely would have pulled this on the open market.
The Cards have a unique situation though with the loss of Dave Duncan, and so many young pitchers in the pipeline. I think this probably weighed heavily in the decision to get the deal done before Molina hit FA. I think we saw with Pujols that there is always at least one team who will throw out more crazy money than the Cardinals can. They probably figured they couldn’t take the chance. The Cardinals pitching staff relies heavily on Molina. It does seem like a lot but there just wasn’t a choice, imo.
I’m really surprised to see so many people calling this a massive overpay. I would love to have Yadier on my team, although we already have Napoli.
I think it’s a slight overpayment, but with today’s contracts if you only have to “slightly” overpay, you’ve won in my opinion.
Wow… have fun with him at 14-15 million per year. No thank you.
If it really is 14-15 per year, the other soon to be FA catchers will surely catch on and fetch the same. If so, bye, Russell Martin. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out after this season.
Major overpay incoming.
Not like the risky Pujols Contract.
Sweet sassy molassy, I at least hope that’s 70-75MM over 6 rather than 5 years.
y do u guys always have to counter everything we do?
So this is how the decide to spend the money they saved with Pujols?
And Beltran, and Furcal, and probably enough to sign Oswalt midseason if any of the starting five get injured.
I loved what the Cards were doing this season, but spending 70 mill on Molina is crazy. Hes a great catcher, dont get me wrong, but his offensive numbers are going to go drop from last year. Hes not one of the best offensive catchers in the game, probably the best defensively, but still. No way hed get that in the open market, they should of let this year play out
Lol. You clearly don’t get it. He’s a top 4 offensive catcher (McCann, Montero, Wieters).
Mauer and even Ramon Hernandez are better as well.
So is Soto. Soto has a career 108 wRC+ to Molina’s 88 (well below average offensively). And Molina’s best year was 2011 with a 123 wRC+ to Soto’s best year of 135 in 2010.
He’s not better than Mauer or Posey.
Yes, he unlikely to repeat his offensive numbers from last year, but he’s far from a bad offensive catcher. He usually hits around .290 with a good bunch of RBIs and doubles and very rarely strikes out.
So this is how the decide to spend the money they saved with Pujols?
Hope for $70-75 M, there will be no more blowing off of the Winter Warm Up or other org events paying Yadi fans are attending. #stlcards
At that cost, that is an absolutely awful allocation of resources. Wow, dodged a bullet with Pujols only to way overpay Yadi, a 3 WAR catcher who maxes out at 4 WAR in his prime. Just when you thought the front office was showing signs of competence. At this price, WHY NOT JUST PAY ALBERT!
Most of Yadi’s value comes in his defense and his game calling. Fangraphs has tried, but in my opinion these traits are quite frankly impossible to quantify statistically. WAR isn’t a golden tool that can be used to analyze every player and every contract.
Yadi is certainly worth 10-12 million a year. I could probably be convinced that he’s worth up to $17 or so. If it’s much more than 5 years and $60 million, then yes, the Cards paid top dollar.
17 MM??? Good lord, did you think 35-40 MM/yr for Pujols then?
So you would give Yadi a 5 yr 85 million dollar deal? Dude. Come on.
Everyone knows that defensive metrics are highly inaccurate, which hurts the WAR of someone like Molina the most. Also keep in mind that baserunners rarely even run on Molina anymore, and the ones that do usually try to steal off of the pitcher, which is why his caught stealing percentage has decreased over the last couple of years.
Relax people. If we are talking “overpay” lets talk about Joe Mauer’s ridiculous 8 yr 184 million dollar contract. Now that folks is an overpay. 5 yrs 70 isn’t that bad of a deal for Yadi. He clearly deserves a raise and that’s what he’s being given
Big difference-
Mauer is worth every penny while playing catcher. He’s a 5-7 WAR player when healthy. It becomes an overpay, though not too bad, if he’s playing outfield or first base.
Molina is worth almost every penny while playing catcher. He’s a 3 WAR player. He doesn’t have enough offense to waste first base on, though, and lacks the speed to play the outfield.
8 years, 184 million with a catcher with little power since moving to Target Field and seems to be constantly nicked up?
Ooooookay
thank you, people act like Mauer was an MVP last year, he has had one season with a lot of power and it seems everyone is still holding onto that.
Power or not, Joe Mauer has a career OPS+ of 134. That’s a bit higher than Mark Teixera. Mauer can flat out hit.
Yadier Molina has a career OPS+ of 88. He’s had exactly one season (last year) where his OPS+ has exceeded 100. Molina for his career is a BELOW AVERAGE HITTER.
Molina’s offense plays well at catcher, where offense is a bonus instead of a requirement. Mauer’s offense plays well anywhere.
I’m a fan of OPS+ but not much a fan of OPS+ for catchers. A majority of catchers (some who are decent offensively for a catcher) will have a OPS+ below 100.
However with that sad, I agree with most others that this is quite a bit of an overpay.
I’d agree with you that OPS+ is not a good stat for a catcher. I’m trying to point out that Molina is a good catcher, but cannot be used in any other position. Mauer hits well enough that he can.
The contract as rumored may not be terrible if Molina is able to catch effectively, with good defence, throughout its duration. A few commenters stated that it is a much better contract than Mauer’s. My disagreement there is that Mauer has a bat which can play anywhere, so an inability to catch effectively doesn’t hurt as badly as it would with Molina.
Mauer will be older when his contract ends and was never above average defensively to begin with. An elite defensive catcher like Yadi should still be perfectly capable of very good if not excellent defense at age 33.
Who cares? Molina’s primary value is his defense while also being a very respectable hitting catcher.
Uh, he’s played one game in the outfield in his career.
that’s a lotta dough for a soon-to-be 30 catcher
This contract is worse than Pujols….and I’m being serious
Yeah, I’m sure paying $14M to a 33 year old catcher is much worse than paying $30M to a 41 year old player. [/sarcasm]
i just saw something saying he agreed to 5 years 60 million i hope thats true
I still believe that Rosenthal has the years wrong. I think it is a guaranteed five year deal at or near $60M with an option for a sixth year. I find it highly unliklely that Dewitt would agree to a $75M guaranteed contract with Yadi. We should know tomorrow but I will continue to believe that KR has it wrong.
KR says “the deal is in the $70-75M range”.
His source is obviously the agent Roman. The deal refers to the whole deal (guaranteed + options + incentives). It is in the agent’s interest to make it sound as good as possible.
AAV will be $12M/season plus an option year (my prediction).
i agree 5 years 60 million and give him incentives for offense and gold gloves and all star games and whatever else he wants
on espn fantasy baseball from rosenthal
on espn fantasy baseball from rosenthal on yadi’s page
on espn fantasy baseball from rosenthal on yadi’s page
some people will just never understand the value catchers really have on a team
No kidding.
No kidding.
So true. The Cards are going to count on Shelby Miller and Carlos
Martinez next season and maybe Trevor Rosenthal the year after that – you need a legit backstop to call the game for those young guys. WAR does not measure that.
You cannot possibly believe a 5 year 70-75 mil deal for a soon to be 30 year old catcher is a good idea.
I have to disagree with you hear. Honestly one of the hardest positions to fill is catcher, your catcher touches the ball and has more control over all the games throughout a season more than any other player. If the Cardinals lose Molina there is no good replacement for him, it is nothing like losing Pujols because there is always someone who can hit decent who can play first, name me a good replacement for Molina as a decent offensive option, a leader, and signal caller and I will agree with you.
I’d take Chris Iannetta as a much better bargain. Career .346 wOBA, 101 wRC+, and the metrics point to him being a league average defender. Then take the boatload of cash you’l save and spend it wherever else you please.
there is no guarantee that the cards could even land him. you have one of the best catchers in the game and you could lock him up now or let him walk and hope you land someone else.
Molina is an investment, he helps the pitchers and in 4 or 5 years when Molinas time is winding down and the Cardinals have a young guy in the wings, that young player can learn from one of the best just like Molna did with Matheny, some things cannot be measured with stats.
That’s all fine and dandy but it does not warrant giving out the 2nd largest contract ever to a catcher. I’m all for extending Molina for the Card’s sake. But not at that reported price.
It’s not like we need to spend money on other positions though. Our farm system is extremely deep with impact players that are 1-3 years away. Catcher is our biggest need.
This is an overpay. Need to pay him no more than $12 million a year.
Eh, still better than Mauer, but not much fun, either.
I don’t think some people understand. We have GOT to keep this guy. If 70/5 is what it takes to lock him up early… Do it. We cannot lose cornerstones back-to-back seasons. We saved a ton of cash with AP, so let’s spend it on a player that we know is a beast and is a leader. People that are saying replace him aren’t thinking of the clubhouse leadership, and how he takes control of a game.
Those who are fans of other teams and just don’t understand how valuable Molina is need to reevaluate. Molina is not just a garden variety interchangeable part. This guy is really smart. His teammates say his brain is an encyclopedia of baseball. He knows every hitter in the NL and what pitches are their weakness. Molina calls every game by himself without any help from the bench. Molina is probably the slowest runner in baseball yet every year he steals 5-7 bases just because he outsmarts the other team. I grant you it’s a lot of money, and 95% of catchers wouldn’t be worth it, but Molina is an exception.
Everyone claiming Molina is the best defensive catcher in baseball needs to read The Stats Go Marching In on Baseball Prospectus. He’s not even ranked top 10 defensively in their advanced metrics.
One danger of stats is that they are based on numbers. I read one measure of advanced stats that had Molina ranked #11 defensively, but gave him only 0.7 runs prevented for the season in the stolen base category. Interesting. The advanced stat was based on caught stealing percentage. Unforunately, like all statistics, it couldn’t take everything into account. Molina allowed fewer steals last year than any other qualified leader among catchers, despite playing more games than any other qualified leader. His caught stealing percentage wasn’t very good, though, so he got little credit in the advanced stats.
There are times when you need to step away from statistics, and actually watch a game now and again. The Texas Rangers depended on speed at the top of their lineup to generate extra offense. Andrus and Kinsler combined for nearly 70 steals in the regular season. How well did they run in the World Series? They barely even tried.
Ask around the league. Watch player interviews, and manager interviews. The players and managers will tell you who the best defensive catcher is. The last four gold gloves weren’t by accident.
Using gold gloves as an indicator are a terrible metric. Also, Molina certainly has a strong arm, but controlling the running game is one aspect of a catchers defense.
Molina also did not score as well as you would expect on framing and calling games, according to metrics. Now, I don’t believe all advanced metrics at their word, especially defense, but for those claiming there is absolutely no argument are ignoring other pieces of the puzzle as well.
I’d say that Molina is a top 3 defensive catcher, but to give him the best outright and say it’s not debatable is being obtuse.
Your post implied that he wasn’t even top ten, because of the advanced metrics. That is obviously false. I won’t claim that he is the best beyond any debate (I think any rating can be debated), but your original post doesn’t have him top 3, and I personally can’t find two other catchers I’d rather have -defensively- than Molina. Several on offense, none on defense.
While there are several gold glovers who haven’t deserved the award (Jeter being my favorite to pick on), Molina certainly deserved it. His award wasn’t based on flashy defense, but instead on consistent defense.
Note, you also specifically mention an article in your reasoning, but that article has caveats you ignore. The metric applied to handling a pitching staff will undervalue those whose pitching staffs have not changed much during the last four years. The Cardinals are one such staff. You can’t effectively measure who is better at handling Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright. No one else ever catches for them. Even Kyle Lohse isn’t measured here. He pitched better for Molina than any other catcher, but all four years measured were with Molina.
Statistics can be wonderful things, especially some of the advanced statistics that remove variables. Nothing beats watching a game or listening to an expert, though. If you’ve ever watched Molina behind the plate, watch the runner on first. The secondary lead is significantly reduced due to his ability to pick runners off first base. This results in fewer runners going first to third on singles. Statistics can’t capture this effect. Statistics don’t capture Hanley Ramirez not attempting a steal off a right handed reliever with a high leg kick. All well and good to see what happens, but sometimes what doesn’t happen is just as important.
Personally, I’ll listen to the players who play against him. If you ask around the league, the general feeling of Baseball Players is that Molina is the best defensively. Of course, players can’t be trusted any more than statistics, but I’ll take them at their word.
That doesn’t take in to account how many people don’t bother trying to steal because Molina is behind the plate
The defending from Cards fans here is absurd. You know you’re paying for what he’s GOING TO DO, not what he’s already done, right?
He’s almost 30 and plays a position where defense isn’t that important. He’s getting a contract that very good – great outfielders get.
Lol you should probably quit following baseball if you think defense isn’t important at the catching position..
Defense at catcher is widely underrated; at least the ability to call the game and own the pitchers which is impossible to quantify.
Not worth $15 million but its an asset that’s intregal to the success of the team.
They’re going to overpay Yadier but their front office is in a bad position… they can’t risk him bolting a year after losing Pujols.
Those ingenious Twins decided to give an inferior player to Molina 180+ million for the catcher position. I’m just not sure why St. Louis wants to overpay like this when they can negotiate next year and still outbid the rest of MLB.
Mauer’s bat does not rate for a first basemen. He has no power. One fluke year of homeruns, thats it. He has not shown consistent power.
So what? Even without power, Mauer is a 5-6 win player. With it, he’s an 8 win player. Stop trying to make a comparison between Molina and a healthy Mauer, because there isn’t one.
I honestly think 5 years 60 million is the guaranteed contract and the 70-75 million is bonuses and incentives plus possibly a option year