1:41pm: The Red Sox are insisting that Epstein cannot bring any of his top assistants with him to Chicago, according to Gordon Edes of ESPNBoston.com. Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com hears that negotiations may continue until Tuesday. MLB teams are prohibited from making major personnel announcements during the World Series, which begins Wednesday, so the Cubs may want to secure Epstein’s services by early next week.
8:00am: The Cubs and Red Sox are discussing compensation for Theo Epstein and Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune hears that the Cubs are insisting on paying cash, while the Red Sox are asking for one or more players. The negotiations could get contentious, but there are no concerns that the deal will fall through, according to Sullivan.
The Red Sox are looking for "something real" in exchange for Epstein, according to Scott Lauber of the Boston Herald. However, it seems unlikely that the Cubs will have to part with a Major League player. The quality of the prospects the Red Sox obtain could be tied to how many front office employees Epstein can bring with him to Chicago, according to Nick Cafardo and Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe.
The Cubs agreed to a five-year deal with Epstein earlier this week. Ben Cherington, Boston's assistant GM, will be promoted to replace Epstein.
Let the sox have mcnutt and theo then can take all of the medical staff and his favorite scouts after the deal is done later this winter.
haha take the medical staff!!
How about cubs take lackey and the sox take zambrano? Theo gave lackey that contract he can have him.
Theo Epstein and Lackey for soriano ,zambrano and 8 mil
is that fair enough?
soriano as DH would thrive in fenway with the big green monster
zambrano and 8 mil might be worth the risk for boston and this is zambrano’s last contract year with a extremely unlikely vesting option. I imagine that Z could win you guys 15 games next year with your stud offense.
Why do people keep suggesting Theo/Lackey for Soriano/Zambrano? How would that even be compensation for the Red Sox? The whole point you Cubs taking Lackey is to get rid of a bad contract as compensation for taking Theo, so why would the Red Sox take 2 bad contracts in return? WTF
Big Z winning 15 games is no big deal…if John Lackey managed to win 12 games in 2011, anyone can come in and win 15 games.
can u? no
Maybe because it’s a stupid idea to think that the Cubs would take on $45.75M in additional contracts for a GM that would be available next year? Especially considering the team already has one miserably terrible contract as it it.
You want the Cubs to act stupidly (beyond hiring Epstein in the first place), then the RedSox have to act stupidly as well. You want to get rid of Lackey’s contract, you have to take a bad contract. The compensation part would be Zambo. However, as much as I wish Soriano out of a Cubs’ uniform… I’d keep him over Lackey.
No way should the sox take on soriano.
The cubs want to get rid of zambrano, the red sox want to get rid of lackey. Z is owed a ton ofmoney next year but lackey is worth more over the next what 3 years correct? I think both could strive off a new venue and the cubs would be getting epstein. Lackey is the worse contract at this point, but in my opinion epstein makes it worth it if the cubs are trading zambrano.
Although another hot head in the red sox locker room might not be best lol…IDK I have a personal wish that zambrano/soriano get traded because I feel really bad for the cubs. I mean if wells can get traded anyone can right?
What’s the problem? The Cubs are getting the “boy genius.” They shouldn’t have a problem with giving the Sox half the team—right? Good luck, Chicago. Theo is overrated. Anyone with John Henry’s checkbook could have done what Theo has done—and probably better.
2 things
Major League Baseball must approve the deal.
and
I agree Theo Epstein is over rated some and over paying for him with any
one from the cubs top 10 prospects would be a huge mistake.
“I agree Theo Epstein is over rated”
…Weren’t you the one who who’s been gloating about Theo going to Chicago?
Yes I have been kind of gloating about getting any GM in chicago but Theo wasnt my first choice ever, Billy Beane was.
Is Moneyball your fav. movie?
Have not seen it yet. Sorry
Beane is waaay more overrated than Theo. Have you been watching the A’s the last few years? They’re not exactly impressing.
They have a much smaller payroll than the Sox do, and he’s managed to do much better than Theo, who has basically an unlimited payroll.
Absolutely!! All of the World Series appearences in the last seven years, playoff victories! Thrilling Septembers…..ohhhhh wait, you mean the Oakland A’s, not my son’s 8U Little League team…..they are not good!
He has had a run of mediocrity for a few years now. Andrew Friedman laughs at Moneyball, cause he knows how to REALLY get success on a tiny budget, and has proven so multiple times. Beane is just popular because he wrote a book about a pretty simple economic concept and simply applying it to baseball. Now everyone does their version of “Moneyball” and he’s lost his edge. It would still be interesting to see him with a bigger budget, but this idea that guys with small budgets will be guaranteed to succeed with a larger budget is silly. Much of the mistakes Epstein made, Crawford, Lackey, Lugo, etc. Were a direct effect of the big budget he had. Someone like Beane never has to worry about being saddled with a huge contract cause he’ll never OFFER a huge contract. It’s simply a very different kind of job; Theo is good at what he does, although probably not the “genius” he is touted as. And Beane can barely swim at the .500 mark, and it’s not just all the budget, as the Rays have proven. Beane is still a -good- GM but his reputation is nearly as large as Theo’s, and it’s mostly based on imaginary success.
Because Billy Beane has done such a fantastic job over there in Oakland recently. (end sarcasm)
Given that the Marlins gave up their 4th adn 5th best prospects for Ozzie Guillen, a crap manager, i would think the sox will be getting at least 1 top rated prospect from the cubs. boom!
The marlins 4th or 5th top prospects are low ceiling players in other words junk so BOOM. WTH does that mean anyway? They were retarded for wanting ozzie anyway.
4th and 5th last year and coming of horr seasons
Solid point outside of the Marlin’s tampering and the lateral position jump. So I guess in retrospect maybe your point really wasn’t worthwhile.
Zambrano got $90 million+, so Sabathia should get $300 million+ by that logic.
Just because one stupid team did something doesn’t mean that it should be used as a standard for future moves by other teams.
If the Sox won a World Series again, you’d be screaming he’s a genius as you always have. The experts all say he’s the best in the game….i’ll believe the experts.
and theo is an expert. but why is it that when theo signed bobby jenks and mike cameron everybody on this site knew they were terrible moves? it seems as though most people on this site have more logic than even the best GMs. nobody can say anything negative about his drafts, but thats not theo, thats the guys he wants to bring to chicago. its been shown that when theo acts on his own, ie free agents, he doesnt fare nearly as well.
im not excited about theo leaving, but im surely not worried about the future of the sox without him.
Same reason every GM makes bad moves. But Mike Cameron and Jenks are peanuts compared to what other GM’s shell out. You have to look at what free agents were available and what they were going for. Such as when guys like Dunn and Carlos Lee were signed. At the time, they get to ask for more money because there’s not much available. Whenever you see a bad contract given, it’s because another GM was willing to give more or close to what they got. Fukudome is a perfect example….multiple teams offered more than the Cubs did but he chose the Cubs. Soriano had deals similar to the Cubs….he chose the Cubs and Carlos Lee got a similar deal. That’s the way it is!
and jenks and cameron were in fact good moves and just about everybody around baseball knew it at the time. both got injured, crap happens
meanwhile, what do they say about aceves and scutaro? nothing. imagine aceves got jenks salary instead of the league minimum he did. still mad? didn’t think so
reasonable people understand the sox lost a great GM
The natural thing to do is trash what you lost. It’s like whenever you run in to an ex co-worker. The place you’re still at and they left was the worst job in the world. Even if they are unemployed and still looking for a job and are broke. But they tell you “at least I’m not in that place anymore! SOOO happy to get out of there!!!” It’s the natural reaction and that’s what’s happening to Theo here.
well said
im not sure jenks was ever regarded as a good move. in 09-10 combined he put up pretty bad #’s, an ERA over 4 and a WHIP over 1.3. sorry, dont feel like digging thru metrics, they may say otherwise but i personally knew this was a terrible signing. i love scutaro and have been lobbying for him to return next year.
jenks peripherals were actually improving through 2010, and a 2 year deal for a pitcher of his caliber is a buy-low win. it didn’t work out because he was injured, so unless you predicted that, you couldn’t have known it was a terrible signing
the point re: scutaro & ace is that there’s ample gawking at the deals that don’t work out, but rarely is it balanced with an appreciation of those that do. ultimately you can’t build teams through free agency, and theo hasn’t he’s supplemented a tremendous amount of homegrown talent with free agents – some of them awfully overpaid – to produce a perennial contender with a strong farm to boot
I wish people would stop underrating the Scutaro move. That signing was a fantastic one, especially with the way he only gave up a second rounder to an interdivisional opponent for him.
So this really isn’t about compensation for Theo and more about who Theo gets to go with him.
I agree it’s really not about compensation for Theo either- he’s already got his deal. It’s about compensation for the loss to the Red Sox.
I think you misunderstand me. I’ll rephrase:
This isn’t about what the Sox want from the Cubs in return for allowing them to take Theo but rather it’s about who from the front office Theo wants to take with him.
I knew what you meant, that’s why I typed “loss to the Red Sox”, I was just being a smartass concerning the wording of the headline
@Dennis — what does that say about Cashman and the Yankees to say nothing of the Mets, the Angels, and the other teams in that same payroll tier below the Yankees? You don’t seem to realize that money is the end-all be-all in baseball.
And by is, I meant isn’t.
Hi Matthew, you can actually reply directly to someone’s posts, you don’t have to put “@TheirName” and hope they see it – just click the “Reply” button next to the post you want to reply to. Also, if you see a mistake in your post, you can click the “Edit” button and change it; the Edit button is available as long as no one has replied to your post. Good luck!
thanks for the info Mr DISQUS
You’re welcome, Mr. Sarcasm.
Red Sox should not try and get greedy, it was revealed on Boston sports radio that Theo has $4 million completion clause in his contract. That means if Theo was to finish his contract with the Red Sox he would get that bonus. So the Cubs could could walk away from Theo and the Red Sox would be stuck with Theo for one more year and that would be like divcorcing your spouse and moving in with the inlaws.
Absolutely correct. The Red Sox have zero leverage in this situation, because it they fail to complete a deal, they are left with Theo, who doesn’t want to be there anymore, and whom they don’t want anymore. Cubs should give them two very young prospects who “project” good, not great plus cash. If the Sox don’t take it, then call there bluff and say, “OK, you can have him back.”
The Cubs want Theo and they don’t want to wait for him. That’s something more than zero leverage.
Yes the Cubs want Theo–but look at this way. Deal falls thru Theo goes back to Boston for 1 year and becomes a lame duck GM (Boston doesnt want hime and Theo wants to leave) and he walks after the year with no compensation and a 4 million dollar bonus. Or Boston is fed up enough to fire him and let him sign with what ever team he wants (lawsuits will be aplenty)
The Cubs are basically looking at either Epstein, or a PR nightmare and panic time at this point. There are like 2 weeks until free agency starts and their list of GM candidates consists of 1. The idea that the Cubs will go with an interim GM for a full season and off-season is almost silly, so they’ll end up signing someone else (likely someone not as talented or well regarded) and it likely wont get done until after the off-season has already started, so not only will they not have a GM for part of the off-season, but whoever they do get to be their GM wont have any sort of plan, or any structure in place coming in, so this whole off-season would pretty much be lost to them.
No, I’d say the Cubs don’t hold all of the leverage.
No PR nightmare. Remember…this is the Cubs. Fanbase will enjoy an owner that refuses to be shafted. It’s not like they’re going to win tomorrow. There are other competent GMs out there.
Right, Cubs fans wont mind a completely lost off-season and another lost season, and they wont mind that the Cubs lost their #1 (and only at this point) target for GM, and they wont care that they have to settle for a second tier GM. Completely agree.
Cubs have reportedly contacted several other GM’s actually… but focused on Theo because he’s the best candidate.
Deal falls through….ask to talk to Cherrington…for GM. It’s an upward move. That’ll make’m crazy.
They’ll say no
Give them Mike Quade
And we’ll give you Larry Lucchino! Deal!
Best news of the day: Larry Lucchino’s contract is apparently up! Yay!
Worst news of the day: Larry Lucchino’s services will be retained for the future. Boo!
I lmao ed on that 1 they can have him
Red Sox take the money. When you have a great scouting department like the Sox do you take the money and sign a high school kid that “is going to college”. Or a high reward/risk international signing.
we’ll give u epstein and lackey. and u’ll give us a $25 applebees gift card. sounds fair?
Heck, Lackey would probably prosper in the NL Central. Cubs need a pitcher anyway.
Sox should get McNutt and Jackson … If the Cubs don’t like it they can wait a year for Theo.
OK we will wait but theo has no job with the sox now that cherington is the GM so what now.
And pay Theo 6 million (2.5 million salary, 3.5 million contract completion bonus) in 2012.
We paid the Braves close to thirty million dollars to take Edgar Renteria off our hands, don’t think Sox ownership will balk over six million that doesn’t count toward the payroll luxury task if they don’t get what they want.
Why do people keep bringing up the money as if it matters that much? Did John Henry sell the team to Jeff Loria when I wasn’t looking?
We give him something else to do? If Epstein wants out so badly, his contentment isn’t exactly going to be the team’s chief concern, as long as he shows up for work, which he’ll do if he wants anyone to consider him for a position in a front office in the future.
Hahaha.. what are you a White Sox or Cardinals fan? You are a crack head if you think they should get either but, both you need to jump off a bridge.
Greedy much? lmao
I take it as a good sign that Cubs ownership wants to send money rather than players. One big advantage that the Cubs have over maybe 85% of MLB teams is money, they should be using it to either bring talent into the system or, in this case, to keep talent in the system. I gotta say the Tom Ricketts has impressed me through this process, I hope he keeps it up.
I’d like to see what the team is willing to part with for Epstein before I evaluate Ricketts’ performance
True but just the fact that we are at this point discussing it is really good. Btw, I tend to agree with Keith Law that the Cubs shouldn’t balk at sending Brett Jackson to the Red Sox if that’s what they want. Sure, try to keep him but if it comes down to it send him. I think people are over estimating him a bit. Klaw calls him a non-star prospect which is something that shouldn’t stand in the way of landing someone like Epstein.
Glad to see the Red Sox pushing for better compensation than just cash. That said, I’ll be surprised if it’s anything big. A couple mid-range prospects maybe, but we probably won’t be able to nab any of the Cubs best prospects. I’m just glad to see them put up a fight for him, and hopefully block him from taking too much of Boston’s staff with him.
soriano in fenway would make manny look like a gold glove lf
terrible post $boy
Manny’s only hope of a gold glove involved spray paint
The ball is in the Cubs court right now. The Sox already named their GM and pushed Theo out the door. The Cubs can tell the Sox to pound sand and they will take what they are offered at this point.
I’m sure that if the deal with the Cubs falls through, Theo will still have his job in Boston. I have no doubt that Cherington’s promotion is contingent on Theo actually leaving.
I disagree….it’s like a bad marriage split at this point. After the controversy, the split, the new GM….Theo is gone and there’s no way of him going back. The Cubs have the upper hand and will give Boston whatever they want.
And what happens if the Red Sox walk away content to just basically hold Epstein hostage in his contract? Are the Cubs going to basically suspend baseball operations for an entire year, essentially putting off their rebuild even further?
There’s no reason for the Sox to just hand Epstein over for garbage. We’ve got a replacement in place already who can move on to other business operations should the Cubs remain unwilling to provide adequate compensation and the Cubs have already come out saying Epstein is their top choice. If the deal inexplicably falls through, it hurts the Cubs a lot more than it hurts the Red Sox. They basically have to suspend any hope of developing a long term plan for a full year if they let Epstein get away or settle for something less than their ideal while the Sox can effectively resume business as usual or even potentially offer Epstein the chance to re-up since the Cubs probably aren’t going to be content to sit on their hands and the opportunity there will effectively be lost.
Cubs fans are really overestimating what leverage they have on the Sox.
So you’re saying, after firing Francona, essentially allowing Theo to walk, the media, the collapse, that they have the upper hand in not allowing Theo to walk for what the Cubs are offering? They said the Cubs are offering cash…not players. I’m sure it’s enough cash but the Sox are asking for more and trying to leverage the situation. But when it comes down to it, the Sox cannot hang on to Theo…regardless if you feel they can hold him hostage. The Cubs are offering cash and they are going to walk away from that and hold Theo, make it worse for them, the team, the organization and continue to pay him instead of getting something for him? No way….I don’t buy that. If I could bet right now, I’d say the BoSox get cash and a low level/mid level prospect at best. They don’t have any leverage beyond that and I think people are underestimating Ricketts. He knows better than to give up anything significant. He’s convinced Theo to walk away from his team that he built and grew up with.
“the Sox cannot hang on to Theo”
He signed a contract, they most certainly can.
“He’s convinced Theo to walk away from his team that he built and grew up with. ”
The thing you don’t seem to be accounting for here is that Epstein has walked away before. If the Sox refuse and the Cubs go with their second choice, Epstein COULD just ride out his contract and go somewhere else, or he could reconsider and stay. Either way, though, the Sox already have someone to replace him should it get dramatic, so why settle for something that won’t help the team. We’re the second richest team in the MLB, cash isn’t going to help us, usable prospects aren’t and a low to mid-level prospect “at best” is of absolutely no use to the Sox, we’ve got plenty of those and none of them are ever going to crack the roster for more than a cup of coffee.
You now have Henry coming out saying he never wanted Crawford. He’s taking jabs at Theo on his way out the door. There’s bad blood there and when I say the Sox cannot hang on to Theo, this is what I mean. You hang on to him, get a miserable employee that’s destined to leave and get nothing in return. Rich or not, that’s a horrible financial move, horrible business move and horrible PR move. Theo is done in Boston and the compensation for him, my bet is, has been decided. It’s a matter of getting public. We should hear shortly and if I was a betting man, I’d put a Benjamin on nothing more than a few mil, and mid-level prospect.
Theo said at the time that he had to convince ownership to agree to the Crawford deal, so we already knew that Henry was opposed to it. And I don’t have a problem with Henry not being all for the deal; he’s the owner, not the GM, that’s what he has baseball ops people for. He said in the same interview that he doesn’t make the baseball decisions because he doesn’t know what the scouting and baseball ops people know.
It’s a non-issue.
That all aside, for it or not, the money’s coming from Henry’s checkbook, he still had to sign off on the deal in the end. He may not have been into the idea, but clearly he respected Epstein’s opinion enough to agree to sign Crawford’s checks.
Exactly
“You now have Henry coming out saying he never wanted Crawford. He’s taking jabs at Theo on his way out the door.”
You should consider avoiding responding to sound bytes of out of context statements from a garbage pile of a radio show like Felger and Mazz. In the same interview, Henry went on to take responsibility for the Sox collapse, stated he’d have loved for Theo to be around for another twenty years and didn’t really take any jabs at Epstein.
“You hang on to him, get a miserable employee that’s destined to leave and get nothing in return.”
“We should hear shortly and if I was a betting man, I’d put a Benjamin on nothing more than a few mil, and mid-level prospect. ”
So, you’re willing to bet that either the Sox keep Theo and get nothing in return or let Theo go to the Cubs now and get….effectively nothing in return. So your basic stance is that the Sox are in the business of doing the Cubs favors?
A year’s worth of a disgruntled Theo Epstein at least showing up for work is more valuable than a mid-level prospect and some cash to an organization like the Red Sox.
“We should hear shortly”
The story you’re commenting says this probably won’t be resolved for another three days. I keep asking and you keep dodging it: in what conceivable way is letting Epstein go to the Cubs for garbage any more helpful to the Sox as an organization than keeping him around for a year? It’s not like he’s going to turn around and trade Ellsbury and Pedroia for Vernon Wells just because his feelings are hurt, there’s bad blood, but Epstein’s still a professional. In the unlikely chance he IS liable to do something like that, I have to imagine the Cubs may reconsider employing someone like that.
Either we get something of value and the Cubs get started on their rebuild or we get an extra year of Epstein working with Cherington and the Cubs get…well, they get to continue being a disaster for at least another year. Which situation would YOU rather have for your team?
In all likelihood, even if Theo comes back, Ben and the owners will be running things next year. But even in the event that Theo is running things the owners can still nix any deal he would hypothetically try to make to sabotage the team.
Yes, the Sox have leverage. The Cubs will have a huge disaster on their hands if they let Theo slip through their fingers at this point, and they know it. If they don’t get Theo, they will either have to have the PR nightmare of sticking with an interim GM for the offseason and possibly more, or they will rush out and sign the first person who says they’re interested, and still not be able to confirm them before the offseason starts. They got their guy, who will excite the fan-base and who has had plenty of experience managing a big budget, and now they gotta do whatever they can to make sure he doesn’t slip away. I think the Red Sox would be fair in asking for one of their better prospects rather than cash, and the Cubs know it. I expect the Red Sox to just make it a waiting game, until the Cubs agree to what they’re asking for. And Boston won’t mind if they get Theo back for another year, and while Theo might not be -thrilled- at that possibility, he hasn’t had personal attacks towards him like Francona, and will likely still work hard for us. Plus, he’ll know he’ll almost definitely get to go to Chicago next year if it falls through, which will be enough incentive for him I think.
And I would think Boston’s not too worried about this 4m bonus; what’s another 4 million dollars to them at this point?
See, that’s where I think it’s wrong. The Cubs won’t have a huge disaster on their hands. They are out for a top GM…..if it’s not Theo, it’s Cashman or Beane or someone nearly as equal. GM’s are jumping at this job to have their names immortalized in baseball history. to be a God in Chicago so don’t think the Cubs are stuck with waiting or being swayed to give too much for Theo. And I don’t think Theo would continue to work hard….his foot is out the door and he’s ready to go. If not this year, the Cubs could wait one more year and get him then without giving up anything. We’ll find out in the next couple days and we can come back to discuss. But I don’t think they will get anywhere near a top level prospect.
Cashman has said repeatedly that he is staying in New York, and Beane has ownership stake in Oakland, so there’s almost no chance he leaves. You can also add Friedman to the list of GMs that are almost certain to stay put; by all accounts he gets along exceptionally well with the ownership and really likes his current situation in Tampa.
There’s plenty others and Rick Hahn to name one that would fall over himself running to the job and would do fine as a GM…as would others. Theo is a bonus and the Cubs aren’t going to overpay for him. I guarantee…come back in a couple days and we’ll talk about the price that was paid. Boston opened the door for him and they are now trying to get as much as they can. They should have done all this before they gave away his job and before he even interviewed….they have given the ball to the Cubs without any real negotiating power.
That’s not true at all; the Cubs would be in panic mode trying to find someone if the Theo deal falls through this close to the off-season.
you’re misunderstanding the boston situation. it wasn’t clear immediately, but we now know that theo was not interested in working out an extension to stay in boston. he was deciding whether to stay the extra year or leave early. in other words, boston already lost him
they have nothing to lose now. they are just trying to gain as much as they can. that’s sort of the definition of leverage. you might be right that the cubs will just move on if it goes too far, but unlike the sox they definitely have something to lose here
boston has already lost epstein. at the absolute latest, he’s leaving after next year. so it would be an ugly PR situation, but there’s nothing to lose here. lame duck epstein would just be cherington & ownership running things
the cubs have at least one thing to lose in addition to the PR stuff: epstein
it’s true that they might be able to scramble and bring in a second-tier guy and it could work out fine, but cashman beane and friedman are just about totally out of reach by now. it would have to be seen as a step back. same is true of having an interim GM for a year while waiting for theo. not a pretty situation
i don’t expect a top level prospect either, but i do think the cubs are likelier to give up ground here than the sox
And really, does anyone believe that Boston’s owners care about bad PR situations at this point? Heck, it seems like they make their own just to stay in shape.
they’d relish the opportunity to paint epstein as wanting to abandon ship for a rich contract with the cubs and refusing to give back anything decent in return for their benevolence
dbags
This just in, Jacoby Ellsbury has been traded to the Braves for Derek Lowe because shut up, we do what we want.
(Somewhere, there’s a Braves fan’s heart is shattering after dreaming of this scenario and its impossibility, but hey, you guys collapsed just as hard as us and nobody’s bugging you about it, so I have no regrets)
In sports all teams will have a # 1 target in this case Theo Epstein. If the the Red Sox come out and demand too much I am sure the Cubs have a second choice. And what will happen to Theo??? Well he will go back to Sox as a lame duck GM ( i doubt any other team would try and hire him based on the negotiations between the Cubs and Sox. Theo would either finish his contract and get paid 3.5 million PLUS a 4 million finishing clause and sign whereever he wants next year. Would the 2nd choice be as good for the Cubs???? maybe maybe not. I think 1 or 2 mid level prospects would be a good package.
The Sox have already chosen a new GM, they don’t have to rely on Epstein should they pull him back, life will go on in the exact same manner it will if the Cubs take Epstein. Sure, they’d be eating money, but this is probably the second most profitable franchise in the MLB, we can afford to take the hit. If the Cubs aren’t willing to give up something that we’ll likely eventually use, what’s the point in letting them have Epstein?
Because they have already essentially kicked Theo out the door. He won’t be back next year and why not get something instead of letting him walk? And they aren’t going to let Theo sit and rot because they didn’t get the Cubs to overpay for him. Theo’s out the door….now it’s a matter of what they will take.
and from their perspective, if it’s just scraps, why bother? i love the guy, but epstein can work out his own mess if it falls through. not their problem
Let 0bsessions extremely over play the sox hand at this point as a cubs fan I could care less if the cubs get him or not. We will suck with or without epstein next year anyway the 1 thing that they could do to help the team without hiring theo this winter is fire quade and hire sandberg wait for zambrano’s contract to expire and offer arb. to pena and ramirez and then hire epstein next winter with the cubs in better position. Rather than letting the bosox rape the cubs.
You know, I get it that both sides seem to think they have the upper hand but to me it’s really not a case of one having much leverage over the other. Both the Sox and Cubs could move on from the deal if it comes to that and both will end up fine, assuming that the Cubs end up with a good GM and Boston’s front office doesn’t disintegrate. That said, there’s no doubt in my mind that the deal gets done and both sides will be content with it.
Remember when Lou Piniella went from Seattle to Tampa Bay? The (Devil) Rays sent Randy Winn to the Mariners as compensation. The importance of that is that Winn was probably the DR’s best player at the time, at least he was their sole representative in the All-Star game. The Cubs may not be willing to give up major leaguers but that doesn’t mean they can send organization filler to the Red Sox. And vice-versa, the Sox can’t expect to rape the Cubs system in exchange for a GM that doesn’t want to be there anymore.
I don’t disagree.
I’m not expecting to pull down Castro or anything, but there’s a lot of unreasonable “low to mid-level prospects” talk going around which is just ridiculous. What incentive would the Sox have for taking that?
I do see the other side of “why would the Cubs, who are hiring Epstein to turn around a disaster of a franchise, start off his tenure by destroying their farm system to get him?”
Personally, I’m with MaineSox, I’m pulling for a pair of young, projectable, high upside low minors guys, one of which I’d prefer be a top ten organizational prospect, basically someone we could at least use to trade for something useful or develop within the organization. As a team, we don’t need a guy who’s going to step in and take over on the big club, we need to restock the farm a little.
i don’t see why marshall should be so off limits. for the cubs, his production is meaningless. his value is in two 2013 draft picks or a couple of prospects traded for in july. is that so much more to give up than a couple of non-top draft picks now? it seems like less
meanwhile, boston would love to have him in the bullpen, even if only for a year. and the draft picks would be gravy
My response to that would be that Marshall is just as valuable to the Cubs as he would be with anyone else. As much as the Sox would like to have him the Cubs also like having him. I don’t really think his production is necessarliy meaningless even if the Cubs end up below .500 but they haven’t ruled out trying to contend next year so they’re going to be extremely reluctant to part with him, or at least as reluctant that you can be when parting with a relief pitcher. Marshall has done a lot the last few years to solidify the Cubs bullpen and they don’t really have the pieces in place to let him go.
every game marshall wins for the cubs only lowers their draft position. they are a club out of contention, his production is not meaningful. no insult intended, it just is what it is
now you’re probably right that the cubs should and do take the position in negotiations that his production is still valuable to them. but it’s still not true. his value to them is what he brings back either in a trade or in draft picks. precedent suggests a trade won’t bring back much more than draft picks
if you’re talking about keeping him long-term, that’s possible but seems very unlikely. epstein is not hendry. especially with a team he’s rebulding, he’s much more interested in draft picks than a pricey contract for a relief pitcher. it’s completely inconsistent with his philosophy, and part of the deal with going to the cubs was gaining complete control over baseball ops
i’m still in the camp that says marshall won’t be sent to the sox, but i’m also pretty convinced at this point that it would be a fair swap if it happened
I actually agree that neither side has significant leverage over the other, but I think you’re exactly wrong about why. I don’t think they can both walk away and be fine; I think neither can walk away and be fine.
For the Red Sox, Epstein doesn’t want to come back and while they might not have wanted him to leave, they don’t want him back either. He will instantly be a lame duck GM, in addition to being pissed. They have already been grooming his successor, who instantly becomes an option for other franchises if Epstein returns. Cherington was always an intriguing GM candidate, and to have the Red Sox essentially declare “we were ready to name this guy GM before his boss even left, he’s that ready to be the GM of one of the biggest markets in baseball” is a tremendous endorsement. Are the Sox really going to say no if the Cubs ask to talk to Cherington instead? Or probably more likely, if a team like the Orioles or Angels came calling? Do they want to be the franchise that locks people up so tight that they won’t let them have a job that only exists 30 places in the world if it’s offered to them? Fans love to scream about contracts, but that’s not how you run a franchise. Not only that, but (right or wrong) Epstein is getting caught up in the whole “clubhouse problem” story.
From the Cubs’ perspective, they fixated on Epstein from the start. I’m not sure any other name is even on their list. Anybody else, no matter how good they are, is instantly the second choice; a move down from “The Cursebreaker” to “this guy will probably be good too.” Probably more importantly, they delay their offseason even further and have to scramble to find a replacement. This offseason, regardless of which direction the team goes, is vitally important and some of the decisions need to be made SOON. Bringing in ANY external GM is going to require time to get them up to speed on the system, and every day that passes is a day lost.
Neither team can afford to let this fall through. They both suffer. The Sox will get a decent player, but I have a very hard time to believe it will be Jackson or Szczur. I have a hard time thinking it could be McNutt too, but I don’t think that’s impossible. I think Carpenter is definitely an option. I think Vitters is definitely an option. I haven’t heard much rumor surrounding him, but I think Rafael Dolis is definitely an option; he could take a bullpen spot in the event that Bard goes to the rotation, but he also offers up the possibility that Bard takes over closer duties and Papelbon leaves, which would save the team huge bucks. (No, I’m not suggesting a rookie be dropped into an 8th inning role, but he can still be a bullpen piece.) Jay Jackson is probably an option as well. If the Cubs are confident with Soto, Wellington Castillo could be an option.
Who says that Theo takes his position as GM back over if the deal falls through? Most likely Theo would be, at most, a figure head should that happen, with ownership and Cherington running things, and Cherington has already been named the GM so no one is going to get him from the Sox at this point.
Give them the finger.
“. I have no doubt that Cherington’s promotion is contingent on Theo actually leaving ”
I have not read that anywhere.With the sox naming theo’s replacement I dont see where the sox have any leverage anymore.
Will 1 of you genius GM wantabe’s enlighten me.
They said in the Chicago Tribune that Brett Jackson, Trey McNutt, and Matt Szczur are untouchable. They said that Josh Vitters and Chris Carpenter could start a package for Epstein. I say just trade bad contracts and their you go. Soriano 2 year 36 mil for Lackey 3 years 45.75 mil. Red Sox replace Papi at DH and Cubs have another arm in the rotation.
What’s that- subtraction by addition? Tony La Russa has so little faith in Epstein’s abilities he’s willing to give up Carpenter to get him to the Cubs? 😉
baseball-reference.com/players/c/carpech02.shtml
*Sigh*
I figured the 😉 would have tipped you off. Silly me.
Josh Vitters stink. Red Sox wouldn’t want him.
listen to me. you can keep the prospects. that’s your future. just fork over sean marshall. he only has a year left anyway, he’s useless to you
(tom he’s gonna to be a type A)
DAMMIT THEO
Yea like that is really gone to happen Marshall is the best bullpen arm the Cubs got even better than Marmol!!! Any team would love to have a lefty setup pitcher that has a 6-6 2.26 ERA 1.10 WHIP and 66 holds.
That whooshing sound, it means… aw, nevermind.
The Cubs aren’t going to compete by the time Marshall’s contract is up and it’s highly unlikely he’ll factor into Theo’s long term plans.
The only reason to hold on to him is the very reason notsureifsrs brings up, Epstein’ll want to keep him around to collect draft picks on him.
Personally, I’m against the idea as there’s always the risk that the next CBA could feasibly revamp the compensation system and one of the most broken parts of the compensation system is the concept of Type A relievers.
I see a couple of issues with your thinking– first Bostons bullpen was as much to blame as the starters for the collapse and the Cubs have one of the best lefty setup pitchers in the game and I doubt Theo would trade him, second MLB does not allow players to traded for draft picks. The Cubs had an awful year but they are finnaly shedding bad contracts–rumors have it Z is going to Florida ARAM and Dempster might be leaving, in baseball today it is not hard to turn a team around in a year or 2.
I don’t see how your response makes any sense in context of what I said:
“second MLB does not allow players to traded for draft picks.”
Where did I say anything remotely approaching that? I said his biggest value to either team was in draft pick compensation. You know, Type A status and all of that?
“The Cubs had an awful year but they are finnaly shedding bad contracts–rumors have it Z is going to Florida ARAM and Dempster might be leaving”
Rumors are rumors and if Zambrano goes to Florida, you can bet the Cubs’ll have to eat most of his contract (If not all, the Marlins are cheap, remember?), meaning he’ll still be a payroll albatross. And Dempster and Ramirez are leaving, but Soriano’s their biggest albatross and he’s still around.
Now, I expect Epstein to turn the Cubs around, but the odds of it happening next year are slim to none. They have one of the worst farms in the MLB, very few competent players on their current roster and are in a huge transitional period. They have a pretty decent offense, but their pitching and defense are among the worst in the game. They’d have to basically find a way to sign Wilson, Sabathia, Reyes AND Fielder in order to compete for a playoff spot next season, because there’s very little of value past them on the market.
Two or three years is possible, (I’d call three maybe even reasonable), but the Cubs don’t stand a snowball’s chance of competing in 2012 and Marshall is going to be a free agent at the end of the season.
If Epstein becomes your GM, he’s not going to re-sign Marshall. Epstein’s gone on record NUMEROUS times that he does not like to hand out large, multi-year deals to relievers (And the only one he handed out last year was a complete bust) and Marshall will be offered big bucks somewhere.
So yeah, the Cubs aren’t going to turn their franchise around in a span of six months and Epstein almost certainly won’t retain Marshall past that point, sooooo again, what purpose does it serve holding onto Marshall if, hypothetically, he was all you had to give up to get Epstein, thus sparing your farm system entirely?
I completely agree with everything you’ve said. As a Cubs fan, I’d like
to keep Marshall for that exact reason (to get Type A compensation), but
it’s still a very fair exchange to give the Red Sox Marshall. I
wouldn’t go so far as to say Marshall is overvalued, but frankly, we
have plenty of mediocre pitching in the minors. Carpenter probably
projects as a reliever, and with Cashner coming off an injury, he might
go back to the ‘pen (closer at TCU, FYI). You can fill your ‘pen in a
transition year with basically anybody. There is ZERO reason to have a
strong bullpen in a year where you’re not even going to sniff the
playoffs. Play young guys, get sample sizes for future.
I wouldn’t listen to Cubs fans that think like our old GM did. They are
probably people who are giddy about Darwin Barney and loved Ryan
Theriot. Can you start to see why this franchise has been in such
disarray? When you crank out guys that are allergic to walks, you won’t
find sustained success.
We’ll get picks for Aramis and Pena next year, and hopefully Demp and
Byrd the year after that. Would be nice to get something for Marshall
too, and it’s tempting to give up Brett Jackson instead, but we don’t
exactly have any other CF in the minors. Jackson is essentially Byrd
2.0, but also a lefty presence which we need with Pena all but gone.
Logical guy to give up that Red Sox would want: Marshall.
Just this Cubs fan’s opinion.
two draft picks seems like the equivalent of what the cubs are offering the sox in negotiations right now: non-top prospects in their middle-of-the-road system. so the difference is a year of marshall’s production. but that’s meaningless to the cubs
so the difference really is that between the two draft picks and what they think they could trade marshall for either now or in july. how much more would it be though than the picks? look at what the orioles and padres got for their relievers, who had more than a half season left
i get the feeling marshall is staying put. but it kinda seems like it would be a win-win, outside of cubs fans possible emotional attachment to the guy or something
and if there is thought to be a big difference somehow, i think boston would be better off sending a low-level prospect of their own to the cubs to even it out rather than accepting a pair of the cubs low-level guys
It does seem to me that the Red Sox are pretty peeved at the Cubs coming in and nabbing Epstein. It really sounded like they were agitated when Henry and Lucchino were on WEEI (I think it was last Friday). I know they don’t speak about these things, but it did sound to me that they were agitated. Just my opinion. It could explain their insistence on Epstein not bringing anyone with him. I’m not entirely sure about this, but weren’t other guys that left the Red Sox allowed to bring at least one guy from the Red Sox staff with them? I think I read that somewhere, maybe it was here on MLBTR. If so, then it really seems like this is their way of paying Epstein back, so to speak. Again, just an opinion…
None of those guys was our current GM. I don’t blame them for not wanting him taking anybody. They’ve built a pretty solid system here, losing the head is bad enough, having to give up a body part or two would really hurt us.
He can take Bogar with him…
Sadly, not a chance. Epstein’s too aware of the stigma with the Cubs to drag along a guy who’s just waiting to become a goat (See Skinner, Joel).
I agree. I wouldn’t mind giving two mediocre guys from our system, but I just feel like the Red Sox are too smart for that. They are going to squeeze whatever they can from the Cubs, and they probably should. It’s their right, we’re basically taking their guy. Cherington is probably cut from the same cloth, but you never know what can happen with him at the helm. Epstein is established as a great GM. You’ve gotta expect to take a little bit of a hit, and dealing Marshall is an acceptable loss.
Problem can be the guys left over from the Hendry staff. You’re probably right in that they will want to keep Marshall. Epstein really needs to put those guys of crossing guard duty and keep them away from baseball operations when he gets there.
interesting update. squabble seems to have less to do with prospects and more to do with what’s going to the cubs. believe it or not i’m more loyal to epstein in general than to the boston ownership, but i can’t blame them a bit for playing hardball when it comes to other staff leaving with him
seems to me that changes the calculus pretty dramatically in terms of compensation, too. if they’re taking multiple staff members, the price has to go up doesn’t it? can’t have it both ways
As a Cubs fan, Marshall is not off limits to me. I was advocating trading him at the deadline.
I would prefer it not be him, but not because I want to keep him on the team. Rather, because I think with a good GM at the helm that he could have strong trade value. Really though, it depends on the conversations that are going on right now. If we’re going to end up sending a top prospect anyway, then I’d rather sub Marshall.
If I could see that list Ricketts is passing around, I could give a better answer. Where the hell are press leaks when you need them?
right? boston and chicaco media for crying out sakes. shows you how little investigation is actually achieved by these writers in general, despite all the content they spill every year. those “team officials” are beer vendors
They’re too busy leaking things about Tito’s marital issues and drug abuse.
I’ve basically stopped reading all Boston media outlets over this garbage (When top Red Sox mouthpiece Peter Gammons is going around saying how disgusting things have gotten, you know there’s a problem). Henry’s interview today was basically nothing but him taking responsibility for what happened and calling Felger and Mazz dolts who’ve been a much bigger problem themselves than anything going on in the clubhouse. I’m pretty convinced the problem is a combination of Lucchino and the Boston media in general.
Honestly, my moratorium on Boston media the last couple of days has gotten me a few feet back from the ledge. Kind of refreshing.
Sure and while youre at it, just fork over Pedrioa and Epstein and you can have Marshall, Barney, and McNutt
Sensible idea, Pedroia doesn’t factor into our long term plans at all. There’s no way we’ll be competetive again by the time he hits free agency in, what, 2016? Totally comparable.
Dude
you have no use for marshall. if you’re going to give up a couple non-top prospects, just give up the two you don’t have yet: the ones coming from his type A compensation
I’m personally kinda leaning toward high-upside guys in the lower minors at this point. Guys like Jeimer Candelario, Rafael Dolis, Dae-Eun Rhee, Enrique Acosta, and Frank Del Valle are all interesting to me to varying degrees, particularly Candelario and Acosta.
much more likely to be what happens, but the more i think about the more i think the cubs should shutup and fork over marshall. see comment to obsessions above
Yeah, it definitely would make more sense for them than giving up prospects, and if I’m the Sox I’d agree to either one, but I don’t see them giving up Marshall simply because he’s a major league player (as stupid as that sounds; they have apparently been adamant about not giving up anyone on the 25 man roster).
Dude, I gotta commend your research.
However, what do we actually know about these guys? Dolis is really the only guy with somewhat of a sample size. And are you guys giving up on your philosophy that quickly? Basically all those guys are high-risk.
Also, if I were the Red Sox, I’d push for Marshall. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the guys left over from Hendry’s staff would overvalue Marshall. I agree with you that it’s stupid to exclude anybody on the 25-man roster. You’ve gotta expect to give something for basically picking the Red Sox’s pocket.
Oh, I agree that we don’t know a ton about them, the only thing we really do know is scouts’ early impressions on them (they don’t really have a track record to speak of), but that also means that they are not real highly regarded yet. The Red Sox have always liked the high reward type players (even high risk ones in certain circumstances) and seeing as they are not highly touted at this point there is a good chance that their perceived value wouldn’t be as high, even to the Cubs, so there is a chance of bringing back more potential talent that way.
Basically I’m thinking that instead of pushing for one higher level prospect (Jackson or vitter etc) they could possibly get, or try to get, 2-3 of these lower level guys with considerably more upside (and considerably more risk).
I agree though, the scenario that would probably make the most sense (for both clubs) would be Marshall going to the Red Sox.
The Red Sox should take the money—Then they could renovate the home clubhouse — and here are the renovations they could make.
1. Install a beer tap at every locker.
2. Install XBox 360,WII and PS 3 at every locker.
3. Build a small kitchen with chicken fryers.
Wow. Another joke about beer, video games, and fried chicken.
i mean, there’s not much else he can contribute. he doesn’t even understand how ranked free agents and draft compensation works, lol
you’ll notice the posters without much knowledge typically refer to the herp derp
herp derp
I’m sorry, it was just too tempting, carry on.
derp
It’s all up to Ricketts. What does he want, Theo or a couple of kids in the minors that may or may not make it to the majors? Seems like a no-brainer to me. So what’s the problem?
The Red Sox have NO leverage. If the Cubs dont offer compensation beyond cash for Epstein the Red Sox owe him $3.7 million as basically a going away present for NOT being their GM. Its a lose lose for the Red Sox.
Its all posturing by the Red Sox right now. Epstein is gone and the Red Sox are going to let the Cubs pay his golden parachute and take any staff other than Cherington they want for basically the cash and a couple of scrubs.
I agree. I think Red Sox fans are going to be disappointed again.
what is disappointment to Sox fan? this is like extra – we get cash and something decent in form of prospects for a GM who wants to leave and we have crafty Ben all trained and waiting for his chance. This is win for Sox not disappointment.
$3.7M is not a concern for the red sox ownership. their position right now is basically pony up or we will keep epstein as an assistant to GM cherington in 2012
they’ve already lost epstein after 2012; that’s over. it’s now a question of how much they gain. either cubs players or a year of epstein. it’s theo and the cubs that have the motivation to make this deal work
The leverage is more like 55-45 Sox advantage. They both want to do this so it should get done. The Cubs want Theo and they want him now so they are motivated to deal. If Theo is going, we (the Sox) want compensation because you look for an edge wherever it can be found and we dont want lame-duck Theo around at this point. Ben is now in charge. There will be some compromise deal here.
Umm how about the Cubs tell RSox ownership to stop being douchenozzles and just take $3MM along with the $7MM they’re saving by NOT keeping epstein and call it a day. Jesus. Playing this game to drag things on and make the Cubs blink is just stupid. Tell Red Sox ownership to read the Ron Swanson boyscout guide and: BE A MAN.
And then the Sox ownership says thanks but no thanks and takes Theo back and makes him sit in the corner for a year.
sorry to break it to red sox nation but despite what ESPN would like for you to believe, Boston doesn’t run the sports world. MLB has involved themselves, which means this deal WILL go through. bud won’t allow the red sox to make themselves look any worse than they already have. you won’t get our number one prospect, you won’t get an impact prospect, and you won’t get to take your toy and go home. we’ll take theo AND give you a few $MM or some halfway decent prospects so that everyone can save face. either move on, or keep acting like a petty baby and put yourselves in the corner with frank mccourt.
That’s complete nonsense. Theo signed a legally binding contract with the Red Sox; they absolutely can nix the deal and force Theo to stay for his last year and there’s not a single thing that MLB could do even if they wanted to. There is absolutely no reason in the world for the Red Sox to let Theo go for little to no compensation, they literally have zero incentive to do anything like that.
Don’t pull out the righteous indignation over Boston having the audacity to control employees who are currently under contract.
good logic comes from Maine
yeah of course they CAN nix it if they want, that isn’t being argued. but do you doubt that someone from above isn’t going to give sox ownership the parental look of “quit fuDGing around or you’re mine” offering $3MM on top of $7MM savings is not little to no compensation.
They do have the incentive to do it because epstein has ALREADY BEEN REPLACED. it’s happening. and you’re not going to get our best prospect because you’ll look like fools if you demote cherington AGAIN, and insist theo stays for one season, doing what exactly?
yes, i do agree there should be compensation, but be realistic. theo was sold on coming to the cubs in no time, it won’t be that hard to find someone else willing to jump in that seat. maybe we’ll let you keep theo and sign away cherington instead.
I don’t get why the Cubs crowd suddenly thinks they hold all the cards, other than their personal attempts to convice themselves their team deserves to get something for nothing.
The Cubs are essentially trying to buy Epstein from the Red Sox. In order to do so, they will have to meet the asking price. That is how commerce works.
And the whole laughable idea that the Cubs will wait and get him in one year for nothing? First of all, the Cubs better have a GM before Epstein’s contract expires. And secondly, maybe Epstein will get other offers as a free agent. There is certainly some appeal to running the Cubs and being the guy who finally wins there, but then Epstein also has a “Been There Done That” on his resume.
It would be a little funny if the Cubs’ reluctance to part with anything for Epstein insulted him and he decided he’d rather look elsewhere next year. “You wouldn’t give up one prospect for me? You’re kidding!! I’d have rebuilt that whole farm system in 2 years!! If Brett Jackson is more important to you then keep your precious little Brett Jackson! I would have gotten you five Brett Jacksons – my own Jackson 5- but hey! If I wanted Brett Jackson, I would have drafted Brett Jackson back in 2009 when I had the chance.”
I actually think the Sean Marshall idea is the best. The Cubs won’t be one Sean Marshall away from competing this year, and I don’t see why their ownership decided that the 25 players who went 71-91 this past year should be off limits. Castro and Garza? Yes. Marshall? Unless the plan is to convert him back to a starter, why not give away a piece who is going to walk away anyway? Especially with the CBA up this December an free agent compensation a potential unknown right now…
why do Sox look bad? just negotiation and gaining an edge. don’t believe they look bad to most of the universe.
was referring to the overall looking bad for the last week, not this negotiation for theo.
Panic mode? Ha. Have you seen the Cubs lately? There are more than a handful of competent future GMs out there. Theo should never have been available in the first place. A bad month and poof…Red Sox implode. Suddenly Theo’s available. The Cubs had others on their list and they’re all good choices. Don’t be so smug as to think that Rickett’s won’t walk away from the table and leave the Sox with a pile of crap. He’ll hire someone else if he needs to.
“leave the Sox with a pile of crap.”
We will keep that pile of crap then thanks.
I heard the hang-up in negotiation of front office staff is that Ricketts keeps on demanding that “hotshot Yale boy” Peter Brand.
Check out my take on the Red Sox at http://thebestsoxblog.mlblogs.com
seriously