The Yankees would consider swapping Joba Chamberlain, but "probably only" as part of a larger package for a "viable starter," tweets Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated. Chamberlain's name was connected to trade rumors last summer, as teams like the Diamondbacks and Blue Jays were trying to "buy low" on Chamberlain, but there was never an indication that the Yankees were seriously considering moving the right-hander.
Chamberlain, 25, was rated as the third-best prospect in the sport by Baseball America before the 2008 season. His star dimmed a bit after a shaky 2009 season in the New York rotation (4.75 ERA, 4.3 BB/9 rate, a league-leading 12 hit batters), but he pitched better out of the bullpen last season, posting a 4.40 ERA, a 2.8 BB/9 rate, and a 3.5 K/BB ratio. Chamberlain is eligible for arbitration for the first time this winter and is under team control through the 2013 season.
Heyman says Chamberlain will remain a reliever for the Yankees "for now." We heard last month that the club wasn't thinking of moving Chamberlain back to the rotation, but even if Chamberlain's role changed, there's no guarantee he would bring needed stability to the back end of the Bronx Bombers' rotation. Moving Chamberlain would be a win-now move on New York's part, but given the team's fruitless pursuit of Cliff Lee and Andy Pettitte's lean towards retirement, the Yankees may be so uncomfortable with their starting pitching that they feel dealing an asset like Chamberlain is necessary.
Wandy Rodriguez or Edwin Jackson come to mind.
For Joba straight up?
Why not?
Both are considerably better then him, it would have to be joba and a few prospects.
Wandy Rodriguez for Joba, Brandon Laird, and Jose Ramirez
way too much
Yea and the Bat Boys too , I say.
Maybe for both not straight up.
You get 2 draft picks if you’re the Yanks and a 14.3 career WAR pitcher for a non proven hard thrower who is one season removed from a -20.2 wFB
Yankees are not too big on draft picks. The Philosphy being that they look to win now.
Jackson and Rodriguez, while they have a longer resume are not anything that resembles an upgrade over Joba.
I honestly can’t tell if that was a joke… Jackson and Rodriguez don’t even resemble an upgrade over Joba?
Two young starters who have both pitched 400+ innings in the past two years adding up to a 7.3 and 7.6 WAR, respectively?
I tend to think Joba is undervalued, but both of those guys are a huge upgrade and neither team would part with them for just Joba, I don’t think.
It has to be a joke, or dream. The rumors from a few months ago are finally confirmed and Joba is dealt to the Pirates for Paul MAHOLM. Now that would be an even trade.
Rodriguez is 31 and has put up some pretty solid FIPs over the past several seasons. Joba + B prospects for Wandy would be solid for NY.
The Astros could do a lot better than that
The joke would be if the Yankees actually agreed to a trade such as that. They are two starters that aside from Jackson, have accomplished very little.
Wandy Rodriguez is 31 yrs old,has 6 yrs of service, has a losing lifetime record. I know that W-L record is longer en vogue and ERA is a throwaway stat as well, but WAR is not the all encompassing stat everyone thinks it is. Rodriguez’s WHIP is 1.352, he gives up 8.9 hits per 9 innings, just about a hit per inning. 1 HR per game, and 7.7 SO/9.
all for a paltry $5MM
Edwin Jackson is 26 yrs old, has 8yrs of service , also has a lifetime losing record, his WHIP is 1.485, gives up 9.5 hits per game, 1 HR per game and has 6.7 KO’s per game. Has a no-hitter to his name as well as the distiction of having played for 5 different organizations in his 8 yrs in the majors.I guess lots of teams like quality, huh?He’s making $8MM per yr.
Joba Chamberlain is 24 yrs old, has 4 yrs of service, has a lifetime winning record, WHIP is 1.358 gives up 8.6 hits/9, .08 HRs/9 KO’s 9.2/9 makes $500K per yr. Is ARB eligible this yr.
You really think these two NL never were’s are an upgrade over a young and still growing Chamberlain?
I think it’s pretty clear that both Wandy and Edwin are more proven than Mitre and Nova, who seem to be the #4 and #5 guys to get thrown out there. Hell, I’d say Wandy and Edwin are both better than where AJ Burnett seems to be. With Pettite saying he won’t be in the Opening Day rotation, that puts the Yanks at CC, Hughes, Burnett, ?, and ?.
…and he’s more or less sucked for two straight years.
Joba may turn out to be serviceable, but right now he’s a dime-a-dozen middle-reliever. He doesn’t have much trade value. To get a serviceable starter (which Rodriguez and Jackson has both proved to be), a straight-up deal isn’t going to work.
This. It’s like saying “Cubs willing to trade Colvin for viable center fielder.” You can’t just take your unrealized former prospects and trade up.
Well honestly you’re spinning a lot of stats. W-L record means absolutely nothing at all, especially for someone like Wandy who’s been playing for a crap team like Houston.
You’re also looking at career numbers, which doesn’t do Wandy and Edwin justice because only in the past couple years have they developed into their potential. I realize that’s picking out specific years, but both of them have posted good to very good numbers in the past 3 years with a substantial number of innings.
You’re not posting any of the good numbers, such as Wandy’s 8.5 K/9 in the past 3 years, a HR/9 < 1 and a strong ground ball rate, which do much to make up for the walks. And I can't tell if you understand what a good H/9 is, because 8.9 really isn't bad at all. Some select H/inning from 2010: Josh Johnson (0.85), Roy Halladay (0.92), Johan Santana (0.90), Chris Carpenter (0.91). I could easily go on, maybe with some guys that aren't quite the studs those guys are: Liriano (0.96), Gallardo (0.96), Dan Haren (1.04)… my point not being that he's as good as any of these guys, but I think you're just referencing that number because it "sounds bad" to have a hit per inning. His 0.98/inning (0.95 in the last 3 years) isn't the end of the world given his other abilities (which is reflected in his FIPs and WAR).
Edwin Jackson's advantage is that he's younger, but I don't think there's any doubt Wandy is superior in pretty much all aspects. Yeah, good players never get traded a lot… Cliff Lee must be a total bum having been on 4 teams in the past 3 years.
So your justification for Chamberlain being better is that he's younger (fair), has a winning record (with the Yankees and mostly as a reliever… so no credit to him at all), has a worse WHIP than Wandy, has a slightly better K and hit rate (which is much, much easier as a reliever) and is cheaper (possibly fair, although neither $5M nor $8M means a damn thing to the Yankees, especially with how much money they have to spare right now).
Do I really think these two "now-are's" are an upgrade over Chamberlain? Absolutely. Not a doubt in my mind, and not a doubt in my mind that Cashman and the other GMs see it that way. Until Chamberlain can prove he can handle the rotation, he's either a gamble (which isn't worth a solid starter) or a good reliever.
Yes, Joba is also only proven in any way as a middle reliever which is far less valuable than starting pitchers like Jackson and Rodriguez.
Only the fact that they are quality starters who you know what they’ll
provide. Come on man.
Blanton for joba (both teams add prospects)?
Only if the Phillies took about 95% of his salary.
Of course they have to eat some of his salary and depending on how much they eat thats how they decide which prospects are added. The prospects come in to offset last seasons bad performances from both and uncertainty for this season, and of course Blantons contract.
Then only the Phillies would have to add in prospects, not both.
True, but if I were the Phils i would want a propect in return just in case joba flops (so its not a complete loss). Obviously the Yanks would get the better prospect while they would give a prospect of lower value. BUT the prospects I’m talking about shouldn’t be top guys. My proposal is just a thought, obviously none of us have a say in this.,
Then you will not get a deal. Dealing Blanton and his fat contract while still getting a young serviceable reliever should be the number one priority. I’ll be just happy to get rid of Blanton even if I don’t get anything in return other than salary relief. Asking for more than that is just crazy, unless you plan to eat 85% of Blanton’s contract.
To tell you the truth I really dont care what happens to joba in the end. My comment was just a thought I thought I’d share.
You guys are seriously over-valuing Joba. 24 is one thing; 24 and coming off two straight crap seasons is something else.
I’m not over-valuing Joba at all. Seems to me people are over-valuing Joe Blanton and are unaware that for an average at best pitcher, he makes a boat load of money, and his WAR as a starter has barely been above Joba’s war as a reliever the past 2 years. Both of them, at best right now, are average pitchers.
Exactly, and to think the Phils would have to pay 95% of a league-average STARTER’s salary to get a league-average RELIEVER is folly.
As for overpaid, he probably is a little but it’s not nearly as egregious as some think. The general consensus value of 1 WAR on the FA market is around $3.9-4.5m right now…FG puts his value for last season at $7.5m.
Look at the SP’s that have signed this offseason. Garland got $5m after putting up less than half Blanton’s WAR despite playing in Pitcher Heaven last season. Harang got $4m despite half of Blanton’s WAR. Westbrook got basically Blanton’s contract despite not even playing in ’09. Vazquez got $7m coming off a season of NEGATIVE WAR.
Like it or not, this is what an average MLB starter costs these days.
and threw in a top prospect
Yea, I don’t think so at all. Blanton is relatively fairly priced. Joba goes to arbitration this year and will likely get a bump in pay that will kill his value. I think Blanton for Joba straight up is fairer than you think.
I never said it wasn’t a fair trade straight up. And I admit I’m wrong about Blantons salary, I thought he was making double digits at around $12 million but his is $9 mil, but I still feel the Phillies should eat a lot of that salary. Blanton is an average at best, of course Joba is too, I don’t know how much Joba is making in 2011 but he’s made minimum wage every year and I also don’t know how much the bump in pay goes to for Joba.
Yanks get a bona-fide, although flawed MLB starter, and the Phils get a guy who may have reached his ceiling as a middle inning or possibly set up, young guy with the benefit of salary control.
I think that’s about fair. If I’m either side, I think about pulling that trigger.
Depends on the prospects. That said, Blanton’s done much more than Joba so far, and would be an upgrade over Burnett.
There’s no reason to think Blanton would do any better than AJ. The only thing he has over him is he’s a lefty with slightly better control.
Blanton vs AJ
6.9 K/9 vs 6.9 K/9
11.9 to 11.6 HR/FB
42 to 49 GB%
2.16 to 3.76 BB/9
Pluses for Blanton: Better control and is a lefty.
Pluses for AJ: Better stuff w/ bigger upside.
The contracts don’t matter since you’re proposing a trade to the Yanks w/ AJ remaining.
Last time i watched blanton on the a’s he was throwing right handed…did he switch with the phillies?
WTF!? do watch other players other than yankess? Blanton is a righty and judging by the way you posted it doesnt look like a mistake
You haven’t be playing close attemtion have you? Blanton has become ambidexterious since coming to Philly in order to stay in the rotation.
You aren’t looking for someone to do better than AJ. you’re looking for someone who can be better than Mitre or Nova. Blanton has post season experience, has been a solid dependable guy and compared to the other options out there, would be an upgrade in the 4 slot for the yankees.
Joba for Blanton and a mid grade prospect and the phis give NY 4 million bucks. Thats a fair deal.
Better than Mitre, not necessarily better than Nova, considering Nova will be in the rotation next year so it don’t matter really of who pitches better between Nova and Blanton.
If I may ask, why include the mid grade prospect. Why not just straight up, with teh Phillies eating some/most of Blantons salary?
Because eating MOST of Blantons salary is counterproductive to moving him. Name a BETTER number 5 starter in Baseball than Joe Blanton. The only reason you trade him is if you have a better/cheaper option than him. Eating most of his salary doesn’t necessarily give you either.
The Phils BLANTON-IORITY as follows:
1) Dump him and his salary for a bag of balls, to free up the cash to make other moves, and let Kendrick/Worley fight for the fifth spot.
2) dump him and eat 25% of his salary for something decent in return
3) keep him till the trade deadline, when someone is desperate/or as an insurance policy shoud one of the PHOUR get hurt.
4)Keep him around all season and try and move him in the offseason, or wait and see what Oswalt does after this year.
5)) get a great return and eat 50-75% of his salary.
You need to define ‘quality’. What I know for certain is that Rodriguez will get lit up in the AL east and Jackson has been previously.
PS read my post to Matthew T. That applies to your earlier post as well.
Yankees fans are the only ones that think this makes sense. Not only is Joba hugely overrated in NY, no one wil lever trade a starter for a reliever the influence a reliever is minor compared to a starter. Yankees fans just think that they are gonna get whatever they want its hilarious.
Granted that many Yankees are overrated including Joba, but that shouldn’t be a reason to trade for mediocre players in return. I prefer to keep Chamberlain with his poor performance, his still present up-side and modest cost. Make him a starter over one of two, older starters with unimpressive histories.
I agree SPAN . Only names that would come to mind or Paul Malholm
Gorzallaney or Wells(along with a prospect of course) come to mind as well.
If you’re going to be unrealistic, why not go all the way and suggest Lincecum?
Explain to me how Wandy Rodriguez for Joba is that unrealistic?
Wandy Rodriguez is a very good starting pitcher. Joba is a decent middle reliever who failed as a starter.
If you need it explained, it can’t be done.
what did he say that was unrealistic? Sorry to burst your bubble but Joba isn’t an elite prospect or carry a ton of trade value.
Joba for Yovanni Gallardo. The Brewers would probably have to throw in Greinke and Marcum as well. Do it because the Yankees say so.
I was waiting for someone to post something like this. Because as all Yankees fans know, teams like the Brewers only exist to be glorified feeder teams.
Why not move Joba back to the rotation, and put Mitre in long relief role? Maybe I’m one of the last fans that still believes in Joba…
because we don’t like logical arguments ’round these parts
Because Joba is not that good? Yankee prospects get hyped too much?
He is better than Mitre…and at this point, that is all he would have to be.
It wasn’t hype when he broke through. The dude was just flat out filthy.
Since then … he leaves a lot to be desired.
The real question is what the heck happened to him? How could he be so electric and so dominant and then a few years later a 6th inning bullpen option?
I think a lot of it has to do with dumb luck. In 2010, he averaged 9.67 K/9 and 2.76 BB/9, which are both excellent. He also had a 2.98 FIP, which is also very good. Unfortunately, he had a left-on-base percentage of only 66.6%; if that number were closer to mid 70s, he probably would have had a much better ERA. I’d put him back in the rotation.
And maybe you’re a little biased and don’t bother to look at facts? I can offer three categorical reasons why Joba Chamberlain would be a fascinating pitcher to at least 15 mlb teams.
Age, peripherals and playing condition.
a) He’s only 25 years old.
-He was rushed thru the Yanks system by making his professional debut and major lge debut all in the same year only pitching 90 innings in A, AA, AAA before being called up in Sept.
-Despite his young age, he already has 350+ innings under his belt.
b) Peripherals as a starter @ ages 23 & 24 w/ little minor leage seasoning:
43 starts-4.18 ERA, 221 IP, 8.4 K/9, 4 BB/9, 1.48 whip, 4.27 FIP
In comparison, among all AL starters in 2008-2009 w/ at least 200 IP he ranks ahead of Gavin FLoyd, Dice-K, Scott Kazmir, Nick Blackburn, Edwin Jackson and Fausto Carmona (he also ranks ahead of Francscio Liriano but I recognize he was recovering from arm surgery and left him off the list).
-He obviously needs to work on his control. He obviously plays up better as a relief pitcher.
-He has a solid mix of for pitches which he use to varying degrees but because he was sent to the pen AND rushed to the majors he hasn’t had as much time to develop them. He throws (avg velocity/% used) a FB (94 mph/66%), Slider (87 mph/26%), Curve (78 mph/8%) and a Change (82 mph/3%).
c) Playing conditions- He plays in a tough division in a hitter friendly park which is tough on flyball pitchers.
Career home (starter and reliver): 188 IP w/ a 4.26 ERA and 1.42 whip
Career road ” ” ” ” : 165 IP w/ a 3.21 ERA and a 1.28 whip
My conclusion: At worst he can be a solid #4 or #5 in the AL East as a starter (if healthy). For a NL team or pitching in a bigger park he can be a solid #3 and possible front of rotation pitcher for the M’s, A’s, Tigers, ROyals, Marlins, Padres, Pirates, Mets, etc if given a little patience.
It would be insane for the Yanks to trade him now because they would be selling low and unless it were a salary dump where it was a one for one in exchange for a solid #3 or better then it shouldn’t be done.
On 25 out of 30 other teams he would be in someone’s rotation.
As for the NY “hype” factor. Yes, Yankee fans overhype their own. However, Baseball America, John Sickles and all the other “experts” could careless where a prospect comes from, and I might even go so far to say that the NY overhype HURTS the perception of most prospects OUSTIDE the NY metro area because it is ASSUMED that there’s more hype than talent involved.
He wouldn’t make the A’s starting rotation, let alone be a front of the rotation starter.
You forgot to add he hasn’t been league-average in two seasons.
I’ll say it again: 24 with talent is one thing, 24 with talent coming off two straight sub-par seasons (one where he couldn’t even reach league-avg as a middle reliever) is something else.
As for the NY overhype hurting a prospect’s perception outside NY: you’ve got to be kidding. Most believe what they read, and Joba was the toast of the friggin league in ’08/’09.
This site has had problems posting replys in the right place. I responded to your post. Look at Joba’s 2007 minor lge debut and his Sept call up. The guys was a beast and it was all facts and no hype bro.
I didn’t phrase that well. I wasn’t saying Joba got undeserved hype – he was sick in ’08, the hype was warranted. I was trying to say that a NYY/BOS prospect isn’t going to be looked down upon JUST because they from those teams, and the hype machine.
To be fair, no prospect is going to be looked down upon if he puts up those numbers/performance once in his young career. It’s like, the scouts and front of office people get enamored by what he once was, and believe they can get him back to that level, regardless of prospect.
It’s not just the Yanks/Sox. Look at the D-Train. Everybody knew Willis was done, yet people continued to take a chance on him because they remembered how dominant he once was. It happens with almost everybody, man.
Err, I didn’t read that properly, sorry. I guess tack that reply to your earlier post?
On topic, Yanksfan is saying that sometimes, because people know that the guys coming out from the Yanks/Sox farm are so often overhyped, even if a player is good, people will brush it off to the hype machine, and not evaluated talent. It’s not that far of a stretch…
Err, I didn’t read that properly, sorry. I guess tack that reply to your earlier post?
On topic, Yanksfan is saying that sometimes, because people know that the guys coming out from the Yanks/Sox farm are so often overhyped, even if a player is good, people will brush it off to the hype machine, and not evaluated talent. It’s not that far of a stretch…
You are probably the last one who believes in him. I don’t know what happened to him in his time as a starter, or of it was something to do with his dad almost dying or his mom being crazy, but something did happen over the last two seasons and he’s just not the same guy he was coming up. Maybe he can get back it, maybe he can’t. I think KC would be a good landing spot for him in a trade. Close to home, less constant pressure and media attention. He seemed to crawl into a shell once he got a little criticism after so much crazily positive attention. Don’t think the Yankees and Royals make good trading partners right now though since the Soriano signing.
that would make too much sense. Especially since the yankees might have the best bullpen in baseball now, and really can get by with two or three starters who only give them five innings per a week.
Think about it. you’ve got Robertson, Marte, Feliciano, Soriano, AND Rivera. thats one hell of a pen.
That is one hell of a pen! Joba in the pen gets relegated to mop up/long relief, the same role Gaudin/Mitre have played for us in the past.
A counter point to my argument could easily be that the Yankees don’t want to take a PR hit by trying to move Joba back into the rotation. You know talk radio and fan blogs will have a field day taking shots at Yankees brass/mgmt about how they’re destroying Joba blahblahblah. While I agreed with the banter in the past, I actually think it’s become a necessity to move Joba back into the rotation now.
We’ll see what happens.
At this point you almost HAVE to give him a shot in the rotation, or you have to trade him. He’s not a sixth inning guy for sure. I think Joba would greatly benefit from new surroundings, a ne4w pitching coach, an organiztion that won’t baby him, and the lack of the constant NY microscope in his face.
Believe this. If he gets mvoed he’ll have the best year of his career in 2011.
Yankees should stay young…. Clayton Richard may work… or Mat Latos?
Not a chance the Padres will part with Latos
MAT LATOS? LOLALOLA. yeah you have some wishful thinking going on there.
Yankees arent young and havent been for awhile. also, why would SD do that trade? Latos and Richard are HUGE parts of their future.
put jesus montero, joba and another guy or two might got one of em
Ummm..Latos is a very good SPer that pitches in the grand canyon that is SD. I do not think his numbers would be so dominant after a year in the American League Beast…..
than you need a facts check
away ERA: 3.14
.217 Avg Against at home, .218 avg against on the road.
still dominant. Maybe not quite as much but still worth head and shoulders more than Joba. Oh yeah, he is also 23, younger than Joba.
A possible all star, a middle reliever, and some over hyped yankees prospect would get you a young cost controlled ace?
Unlikely.
I agree that the Padres would not be interested in trading either Latos or Richards or any other young pitcher. That’s not their “MO”.
I disagree w/ someone below that Montero and Joba wouldn’t at least be serious consideration for Latos however. Pads need offense and despite trading for Rizzo, Montero profiles to be an elite hitter and he could be an all-star at 1B even though his defense may be no better than say….Fielder or Howard.
As for the youth issue, for the record, CC is about 30 and aside from AJ every other pitcher so far is in their mid 20’s (assuming the Yanks go with a kid over Mitre). In the lineup, aside from Jeter, Arod , MO and Posada (who is in his last year) everyone else (Tex, Cano, Gardner, Swisher, Grandy, Martin, Montero, Cervelli, Robertson, Joba, Soriano, Mitre) are all under 30-31.
i doubt you get Latos even if you added Montero.
The Friars have no reason to trade him anyway.
we have no need for joba(especially at that price), but the idea of joba at petco is intriguing.
Would you take Joba, Montero, Brett Gardner, and a minor league pitcher with solid upside?
What? overrated reliever for an ace and a upcoming no.2? Outta your mind.
Richard’s not bad but the Yanks would want a better starter than that, and Latos isn’t going anywhere for several years at least.
The Yanks would have to empty the farm to get Latos.
joba for jackson. make it happen KW.
and why would the white sox, a contending team in win now mode, trade there #3 starter? The draft pick(or 2) they would get for Jackson at the end of the season are worth more than Joba….
Easy. Jackson is a FA next offseason and is overpayed at $8.75 this year.
No way will Kenny Williams play ball with Boras for Jackson in 2012.
If the Sox can get another pitching prospect, I could see them doing that, considering Sale can step in either in the rotation or pen.
doesn’t matter if he is sort of overpaid or not, that doesn’t change the idea that they are in win now mode and would be very foolish to trade there #3 starter. If he is a free agent(which i knew), than that is draft picks(which i already said) and the picks are worth more at this point than Joba. Not sure if Jax is a type A or B though.
I actually would love it from a Sox fan’s perspective. It gives KW flexibility at the deadline, and Don Cooper is as good as any pitching coach in baseball. He tends to take prospects who turned into garbage (e.g. Gavin Floyd) and make them very solid starters.
Oh what planet do you live that 8.75m is overpaid for a #3 starter?
$8.75 million is not a lot of money for a pitcher with a career ERA+ of 99? And it don’t matter what spot in the order he’d be. A rotation order is not set by highest contract to lowest contract. It would be a toss up between 3 or 4 with AJ and Blanton.
Nontheless, I tihnk the Yankees would be better off getting Justin Duchscherer for a few million than trading Joba for Blanton
Jackson was worth 3.8 WAR in 2010 and 3.5 WAR in 2009. Assuming $5 million per win, which is pretty safe right now, he was actually underpaid. By a lot. If he puts up another 3+ WAR season, the White Sox will be getting essentially a 50% discount.
Yeah I’m pretty sure you can do better than Joba if you’re trading Jackson… contenders don’t trade starters with rotation spots for relievers.
I don’t think you’d have to give up a ton for Jackson, but probably more than that.
I think it’s a given that any team interested would be thinking of using him as a starter first and a reliever only if he proves he can’t handle it.
But just because you want to try him as a starter doesn’t mean you’re really trading for one. You’re trading for a reliever and a gamble.
I’m not advocating that he would net a starter in a one for one trade. I know it would probably take more than that unless it was for a huge salary dump like Zambrano. All I’m saying is that most teams interested in him would probably want to use him as a starter.
The one clear bias that I am hearing is that he can’t be a starter. Think what you want but there is ZERO evidence that he couldn’t succeed. Look at his age, look at his peripherals as a starter in 2008-2009 and what you see is a then 22-23 yo pitcher with a 4.27 FIP in the AL EAST that has shown the ability to strike batters out who simply needs a 3rd pitch to be at least average inorder to be a likely productive starter. When he came into the lge he had 4 pitches. As a reliever he mainly used two of them.
Alright, we’re pretty much on the same wavelength then. I agree that Chamberlain could have some degree of success as a starter, but he needs to show that before he’s going to net a solid starter in a 1-for-1.
I was just saying that teams (especially contending ones) are extremely unlikely to give up a starter in their rotation for a player they know can be a good reliever and might be a decent starter. It just doesn’t add up.
Why not just make Joba a SP? Hello.
Because he’s a better reliever than a starter. That isn’t saying much thugh.
well that certainly didn’t work when they tried…
Ummm…yes it did or at least it was inconclusive. He had a freakin’ 4.27 as a 23-24 yo starter who was shuttled back and forth and given inconsistant starts. They were impatient with him and weren’t going to have both Joba and Hughes in the 2010 rotation.
Wouldnt put Laird in a deal for him though
Yeah, that sounds perfect.
Oh wait, it’s January 2011 when no available starters are worth trading for, and not January-July 2010, when they could have nabbed someone better for Joba+. Like, say, Dan Haren.
LOL!
Kazmir + Angels pay Full Salary for Joba?
There is literally nothing left in Kazmir’s tank. No way.
if they are going to pay full salary might as well keep him… i still have hope Kazmir will turn it around somewhat and put up decent numbers *crossing fingers*
Kazmir’s done. He was done when Tampa traded him. I wouldn’t want him on the Yankee roster. If I’m wrong about him and he pitches well in the future I’ll admit I’m wrong and eat my words
I’d want him on the Yankees roster. Although I am a Sox fan…
Joba to the Cubs for Gorzelanny?
A little lop-sided, um Wells and maybe a low level prospect for him?
I do it. Gorzo for Joba in a heartbeat.
This is 2011 Joba, not 2009 Joba. He’s been a below-avg middle reliever for nearly 2 seasons now.
I was thinking Demps and Gorz (Cubs eat half owed) for Joba, two plus prospects, and a mid level.
I don’t think Demp would agree to a trade and I wouldn’t want him to, he’s been solid for the Cubs and I actually expect an extension for him. As for Gorzelanny, although most Yank fans won’t agree, I’m guessing a pitcher of Gorz quality is about what Joba would bring back. Gorz is a descent 4 and he is a lefty, while Joba’s value has significantly diminished. I actually don’t like the deal for the Cubs as they have a nice looking pen now and plenty of young arms that project as future SP. I’d rather see them deal Gorz in a package for a 2nd baseman that hits leadoff or just get back a handful of prospects. Gorz is underrated, hopefully the Cubs will get value back.
You kind of touch on things that make my reasoning for that trade. Let me just start by saying I really like Demps. He is a class act and always puts forward a great effort. Trading him would hurt but like you said, the Cubs have plenty of young arms. I would rather have Z and Garza (wasnt happy about the Garza trade btw) take the first two, Cashner take three, then have Wells – Coleman – Shark – Joba battle for the last two. Cashner can be just as effective as Demps this year imo and we would save like 10m a year for the next 2. It a win win in my book but I’m just spinning thoughts here.
I get your reasoning, but with Dempster being the most reliable SP on the Cubs and his open love for the organization and desire to remain with the team, I can’t see Hendry even approaching the idea of a trade. I’d really like to see Cashner starting this year so 1 if not 2 of Silva, Wells, Garzelanny need to be moved. Gorz seems to be the one Hendry is shopping, mostly based on the fact that he is probably the easiest to move, but as a lefty, he actually makes the most sense to keep. I keep on checking the headlines because I really don’t know what his trade value is. The other day when I read they signed Reed Johnson, I was positive it was a precurser to an outfielder (F-bonb) being moved, but still no news on that front either. That being said, I think Hendry may still have one big move left in him. Despite the fact that everyone thinks the Cubs should be rebuilding, he seems to be trying to contend.
I’m not sure, but I think Dempster has a 14 million dollar player option at the end of his con tract. I’d love to move that over to the Yankees.
Wouldn’t do that trade at all. Neither of them are worth two plus prospects on their own.
Jered Weaver for joba+ jesus montero?
i doubt Angels are in sell mode, and i would expect a near grienke-esque return for Weaver. This doesn’t qualify as that IMO.
Jered Weaver is a young ace. That trade is awful. Joba, Montero, Banuelos, Laird and a B level prospect my not even be enough. I wouldnt do weaver for cano and joba.
The Yankees wouldn’t do Cano and Joba for Weaver, either, so you have company. They wouldn’t do Cano for Weaver straight up.
yeah but two things:
1) He is a free agent after 2 seasons
2) boras
Cano and Joba is probably a tad overpay.
And you are absurd? Did you even bother to look at what Greinke, Haren, Halladay and Lee got in trades recently? In a pitchers vs position player comparison Cano is at least equal to Weaver.
I agree that elite starting pitcher are a rare commodity but their have been enough precedent set to say that proposal is crazy.
You sound like Arte Moreno
No way the Yanks trade Cano. He’s the best hitter on the team.
why would they ever trade Robinson Cano? That doesn’t even make sense. Cano is one of the best players in baseball why would they trade him for jered weaver?
The Angels already have a catcher who can mash … and they hate him. By all accounts Montero would be a defensive downgrade from Napoli. They also have top rated prospect Hank Conger ready to start his ML career.
I seriously doubt the Angles would do that. He is perhaps their best pitcher and they’ve saved enough money to afford extending him even if he is a Boras client.
Sounds good but Angels would prob want a bat in the deal
Did you just respond to yourself?
Just goes to show how small your window of opportunity to prove yourself really is coming up from the Yankees farm.
Take Lohse please.
seriously doubt thtll happen
As do I but i can dream dammit
God yes! We’ll even throw in McClellan! 9;
Joba does not have the value he used to have. he is a relief pitcher, and not even really that great at that. 4.40 ERA as RP in 2010 and 4.75 ERA as SP in 2009.
still cheap and team controlled so maybe there is a small market team that would give up a SP that is making more $$, but I would not expect an all star caliber pitcher in return.
Understatement of the century.
Or that nasty 2.60 ERA in 2008, right?
what have you done for me lately. he would get much more value based on what he has done the last 2 season than what he did in 2008. a full season as a starter and a full season as a reliever.
You are cherry picking. And ERA is not the greatest way to evaluate a player.
In 2010, his full season as a reliever, Joba was tied for the 24th in WAR out of 134 qualified relievers.
WAR isn’t all that matters either.
2010 as a reliever, he gave up 71 hits in 71.2 IP. .253 BAA. in 2009 as a starter he gave up more H than IP with 167 in 157.1 IP. .274 BAA. in 2010 as a reliever he had 1.30 WHIP. in 2009 as a starter he had 1.54 WHIP. average/below average numbers.
“maybe” he could end up being s closer somewhere, but right now he has more career blown saves than he does saves.
every team in baseball likely has a reliever similar to Joba, but because he is on the Yankees he gets rated so high.
at one point he was a top prospect, but there are a lot of top prospects that don’t turn out to be good/great.
he is still only 25 so there is still time for him to improve, but right now Joba is overrated.
You’re not wrong, but his peripherals + FIP were pretty good last year.
2.28 FIP in 2010. 4.27 FIP as a 23-24 yo starter in 2008-2009. Good pitching coach and a good ball park with a good defense can do wonders for a guy.
If GMs are only looking at superficial numbers and not the potential of a 25 yo pitcher w/ gas and 300+ innings of experience then Cashman shouldn’t even bother.
they could even put ramerio pena in a deal too but yanks prob wont do tht
Say whaaat? They want to trade a marginal reliever with a league average ERA for a starter? No crap, Sherlock.
Kyle Lohse for Joba! or how about Kyle Lohse to the Yankees and they can keep Joba! Lohse for saaaaaaaaaaale!!!!! anybody want a free Lohse?! only a paltry $23,750,000 left on the final 2 years of his deal! Get him while he’s hot!
Lol Joba was and is overated, and how are they considering him an asset? He’s 25 hasnt done much in the ML and isnt young enough to be considered a “prospect” any more. Dude sucks
Whaddya mean? Just check out the reports from 2008. This man is a first ballot Hall of Famer!
Same exact age as Wade Davis and David Price. Has a career FIP better than Davis and only .40 higher than Price.
What about Joba’s line in his only full year as a starter? How about you give us those numbers. Like I said, perhaps he has always been more suited for a bullpen role instead of as a starter. Joba as a reliever has a lot less value than Joba as a Starter, that’s for sure.
Lol you do realize that Davis and Price are about 50X better then Joba right?
…except they throw 6ish innings a game, and Joba throws 1. When he threw more, he gassed out.
His numbers from ’08 are meaningless. Joba, at this point, is a guy who can go 3-4 innings and usually give league-average production. His only plus, trade-wise, is his age.
I like how the Yanks think Joba is worth a starter. If he wasn’t a Yankee, nobody would even hardly know who he is. Just because he wears pinstripes, I guess he’s premium. Same thing happened with Melky Cabrera. People were tricked into thinking he was good too. Once on another team, (Braves) he sucked. Same would happen with Joba.
Joba for Gil Meche and Sean O’Sullivan. Come on Royals make this happen.
Luke Hochevar and O’Sullivan would make more sence to me considering Hochevar has been relitivly better than Meche
Joba is interesting. He’s like a lot of guys that captured lightning in a bottle for either a brief period of time in the majors or in the upper minors. You have to wonder what happens to guys like Joba, Gordon, Wood, Bailey, etc. Will those guys continue to flounder or do they need a few years (ala Delmon Young) to just put everything together.
Joba has more upside then alot of you think. He has 4 pitches which makes him a likely starter candidate. Jackson for Joba would be fair….Because Wandy Rodriguez is lefty I would think another player would have to be added for him but not Montero. Romine or Sanchez would help the Astros at catcher.
Joba + Romine or Sanchez is wayyy too much for Wandy.
Ive got 4 pitches, doesnt mean I can throw them well.
How about Armando Galarraga? It looks like he is being squeezed out of the Tigers rotation yet again.
I wouldn’t like that trade at all (from either side). For one thing Galaragga has horrible numbers in a pitchers park and gives up almost 1.5 HR/9 innings. 1.5/9 innings when half your games are in a pitchers park is probably equivilant to 2.5/9 innings in Yankee Stadium. Both have had only 1 good full season, coincidentally in the same year also in 2008. Neither have been good since.
Someone said Joba’s only known because he’s a Yankee. Fair, but I can also say Gallaraga his only known because of his “Perfect Game”.
I know Galarraga from fantasy baseball. He was a sick free agent pickup for my team in 2008. He is inconsistent but he has good stuff and if he put it all together he could be a very good starter, and if we’re talking about a Yankees 4 or 5 starter they can give up a lot of runs and still win a lot of games anyway.
Joba for Scott Kazmier would make sense.
Kazmir is done. He’s just another Oliver Perez
Not quite. Kaz doesn’t want to hide on the DL all the time like Perez and Pavano. Both of those guys seem to have leaned that habit in NY, though different leagues. Must be something in the water there.
I wouldn’t go THAT low. Ryan Rowland Smith is more like an Oliver Perez
Kevin Slowey for Joba 🙂 hahaha
Blanton for joba(both teams add prospects)? Would work out for both teams, Yanks get a starter. The Phils unload Blanton and somewhat strengthen their bullpen or at least give them another option. Both guys are coming off bad years. Of course the prospects added would offset the uncertainty of each player, so the prospects would have to be mid-tier going from and to both sides.
that would not work… blanton costs way too much money.. and why would the yankees include prospects…
Because he doesnt have a good track record over the past 2 seasons. The Phils would have to eat some of blanton’s contract and depending on how much they eat thats how you evaluate the prospect the yanks give up. The prospect are there just for insurance, so if both Blanton and Joba flop this season it doesnt seem like a complete loss for either side. (My proposal is just a thought,obviously we have no say in this.)
exactly what I was thinking!
The phils could throw in an autographed Cliff Lee jersey in the deal too!
the phils would give the yanks blanton and an autographed cliff lee jersey for joba.
I was thinking more of a Free McDonald’s card for life.
I think a Joba for Blanton trade in some fashion… Maybe Blanton and Mayberry for Joba and a Younger Outfielder (like a double a – lower prospect.)
Joba for Blanton would work out well if Joba doesn’t make too much in Arb.
Also of any team in the majors the Yankees needn’t worry about Blanton’s salary. I wouldn’t expect the Phillies to pay much of Blanton’s salary at all for a trade with the Yankees. Joba is a halfway decent middle reliever and Blanton is a slightly above average starter. In this free agent market, $8.5MM a year for Blanton is actually very reasonable.
The Phillies are looking to unload Blanton to avoid 8.5 MM/yr for both 2011 and 2012, so why would they be interested in picking up another bloated contract in Joba? It just doesn’t make sense for PHI, no matter how many prospects are included.
How would Joba’s contract be bloated? He’s a reliever putting up okay numbers. I’d be shocked if he got more than $2.5MM in arbitration. That’s considerably less of a commitment than the $17MM owed to Blanton.
A career ERA+ of 99 is not an above average pitcher.
i was thinking the same thing. blanton fits what the yankees are looking for a stable pitcher. the phils get a relief pitcher they need.
Blanton’ is slightly above average?
Blanton is slightly above Mitre :-/
Ohhhh the Yankees would consider Joba for a starter would they? How generous of them.
That’s why Cashman tried so hard to trade Montero the catcher last year. Once he proves he can’t catch, he becomes Billy Butler with a few more HRs…
Billy Butler with more HRs would be a great hitter.
It’s about a 2 WAR decrease in value…
Yeah, trade the man when his stock is at a all-time low. Great job Cashman.
To think we could of got Halladay, Cliff Lee, or even Johan Santana a few years back for Joba and a few minor league scrubs.
Thats Cashman for ya. He has no clue on pitching. His track record proves that.
Ya im sure the Jays would have excepted joba and some minor league scrubs for halladay lol
1- They got CC as a free agent and won the WS without losing any of their players
2- In the Lee trade talks with Seattle, Joba was not even involved
3- Toronto wanted Joba, Hughes, Montero and Brackman for Halladay.
If they traded for Johan, I sincerely doubt they would have signed CC (for the amount he got)
Either way, they could of traded Joba a few years back for a good bat or a pitcher.
How about Montero Banuelos Joba and Adams for Liriano? Minny needs a DH, Banuelos in a few years, Adams could be a .280 15 hr respectable 2nd basemen.
First off, the Twins just re-signed Thome. Secondly, why do you Yankee fans always assume every other team wants to trade your team their best starter for your unproven and overvalued scraps? First it was King Felix now I guess its Liriano.
I think you can assume that just about every starters FB will be higher out the pen vs as a starter. However, as a starter in 2008-2009 his FB velocity averaged 93.2 mph which ranked him 16th among all mlb starters. He had a great slider and curve coming into the majors and he was working on his change. All that was stunted when he was moved to the pen where he was focused to become a 2 pitch pitcher.
If I were the Yanks I would start him in AAA and bring him up after 10 starts or so.
I’d be surprised if he has minor league options after all this time in the majors – though I’ll admit I don’t know the details on how that works.
Ya that makes sense. Burn his confidence and distort his role even more. Yankees should just trade him so he gets the kind of coaching and direction he needs to be successful.
If a stint in the minors to help convert him from a reliever back to a starter (unarguably a more important, and better paid, job) burns his confidence then he has no business on the field to begin with.
Joba for Maholm cant wait to have Joba pitch the 7th meek and hanrahan 8 and 9 that will be something, only problem is finding a starter that goes six innings to allow that to happen
Joba’s value is pretty low right now, so I don’t think it’d be the greatest move to try and trade him right now. He’s a project Starter at this point, and if not a starter he’s just a good bullpen arm, nothing more…which isn’t a bad thing, but it isn’t going to get you a top starting arm or anything. I don’t mind Joba, and really the Yanks should try him in the rotation again, but they seem pretty adament about keeping him in the bullpen, not too sure though especially with the rotation they are going to be trotting out there this year. I’d love the Jays to try and pry him away on the cheap, but i’m not sure Toronto have the pieces to get the deal done as the Yanks would probably be looking for a cheapish back of the rotation guy (#3/4), so unless Toronto really felt that he could be a good starter again I don’t see them moving even a guy like Cecil for Joba+.
but…. JOBA RULES!!! right?????????
Maybe we’re simply over-estimating his skills…I always said he was probably more suited as a bullpen guy, and his numbers seem to prove that. Also read that Cashman didn’t like how he lost velocity as a starter compared to as a reliever (which is normal anyways). It kind of sucks to see a 25 year old with his stuff have to toil as the 7th inning guy for the Yanks over the next few years.
meant 2.88 FIP
No. The Yanks would say to him in ST “we are using you as a starter. Go to AAA and air it out and get yourself ready. Work on throwing the offspeed stuff we told you not to throw as a starter”. it wouldn’t be a demotion. More like extended spring training.
I like this idea since teams can typically go the first month without a 5th starter. Bring him up when needed and give him a shot in the rotation, he can’t be any worse than Mitre. Trading him at this point would be foolish of Cashman.
Gavin Floyd for Joba + prospects? I know its not an “all in” move, but I’d bet plenty of money that Cooper can fix Joba. It also gives the Sox room to make a blockbuster deadline deal, and possibly a prospect to get it done.
How bout the Yankees just give Chris Young 3 million which is a drop in the bucket for them and see if they can anything out of him. Then they can keep Joba and hope he pitches well enough to be used in a better trade during the season when teams start falling out. I’m sure cashman will find a way to mess up his pitching staff any how.
Scott Kazmir for Joba?
I thought he was a free agent.
He’d expect the Yankees to pick up his option for 2012. Don’t think that be good for the Yanks.
They aren’t obligated to pick up the option… unless there is something hidden in his contract
He was the toast of the lge because he put up insane numbers.
OMG…..think!!! He was drafted in 2006. Didn’t pitch at all until 2007. In 2007 he blew threw A, AA, AAA and made his mlb debut. He was a 1st rnd comp pick. He was throwing 98 mph. He was well hyped because he was that damn good.
In 2007 (his only year in the minors) he had 15 starts, a 2.45 ERA, a 1.00 whip, an insane 13.8 K/9 and a 5.00 K/BB ratio. He struck out 135 guys in 88 IP!!! Then he debuts in Sept that year and rocks a 0.38 ERA, 0.75 whip, 12.8 K/9 and 5.67 K/BB rate. That wasn’t hype that was d@mn good pitching for a 21 yo w/ little mlb seasoning.
You want hyped? And this is no disrespect to Boston, look at what Joba did vs what Casey Kelly has done so far. Kelly so far is all hype. Joba DOMINATED in the begining. My mouth waters wondring what he would be like if they gave him 2 or 3 years to develop as a pitcher in the minors instead of “must win” situations w/ no seasoning.
Kazmir doesn’t have a no trade clause so he can’t demand his option o be picked up. He is owed $12 mil and a $2.5 mil buyout. Either way, I can’t imagine him being better than Joba at this point.
Who said he would demand it? His agent might tho.
so what?
Look….bottom line regardless of whether or not picking up Kazmir’s option would happen or not…the deal’s not happening…why would the Yanks want him in the first place.
Not a problem. I’ve posted it several times already though and it would be nice if ppl bothered to look at stats instead of repeating other ppls nonsense.
First, let me state my thinking. I didn’t say Joba was a great pitcher. In fact I never said Joba was a finished product. And that is really my point. Joba was a starter at age 22 and 23 after spending all of 88 innings in the minors in 2007.
Joba’s 2009 line: 156 IP, 4.84 FIP, 7.6 K/9, 4.38 B/9, 1.7 WAR.
Not sparkling but not exactly horrid for a 23 yo. His biggest issues were walks. Still his K/9 and FIP were better than Cahill (4.53/5.33), E. Santana (6.8/5.09), Guthrie (4.95/5.31) and on par with Danks (6.6/4.59) and Porcello (4.69/4.77)
Little bit more context. Yanks let him pitch w/o limits in the 1st half of 2009 and he posted a line of 4.25 ERA, 1.56 whip,7.6 k/9 in 17 starts. In the 2nd half they started skipping starts, giving him 6-8 days rest and giving him truncated starts in efforts to limit his innings and protect his arm. That resulted in a 2nd half 5.40 ERA, a 1.52 whip and a 7.2 K/9 in 14 starts.
My issue is, you have a 23 yo kid who you gave ZERO seasoning to. While he wasn’t great he showed obvious signs of having good potential giving you 13 of 17 starts w/ at least 5 IP and 3 runs or less in the 1st half and then struggled when he was messed with. Why not giving him a chance in 2010 to continue to improve yourself? I understand they thought they had more of a sure thing in Vazquez and maybe didn’t want both Hughes and Joba in the rotation at the same time but I feel it was a waste.
Overall though, if you look at his body of work as a starter, which was from 2008-2009 he had a 4.18 ERA and a 4.27 FIP w/ a 8+ k/9 rate over 200 + IP. If another pitcher from another organization in any other city other than NY put up the minor lge numbers he did in his 1st year in the minors/majors in 2007 and had a 4.27 FIP and a 8 K/9 rate as a 22-23 yo he would NOT have been made to fight for the #5 spot on their team in ST and then be sent to the bullpen as a relief pitcher. You can go threw history and probably find 50 or so young starters that didn’t post great numbers in their first two years but showed some promise and eventually had success and became good/great pitchers.
When I say “he” that includes his agent. They don’t have a no trade clause in their contract therefor they have ZERO leverage to insist on his option being picked up. The Angels have no reason to ask for it either. Therefor the Angels can trade him to whoever and that team can not be compelled by Kazmir (or his agent) to pick up the option.
My bad.
They can have Oliver Perez for Joba’s glove.
They should have just traded Joba for Haren.
They should trade him for the A’s pitcher who told arod to get off his mound. Anyone that passionate about playing against the Yanks would be equally or more passionate playing with them
I think Joba to Baltimore makes since. The Orioles could give the Yanks Tillman and another prospect for Joba. Then put Joba in the rotation. 1: Guthrie 2: Matusz 3: Joba 4: Bergy
5: Arietta.
what about armando galarraga and a low end prospect for joba. that seems fair to me
Yanks like Zambrano right? Keep it in mind when July comes around
Anyone else see a jaba/Blanton deal? Phillies need pen help, Blanton is a solid horse and knows how to pitch in big games. Deal would be beneficial to both teams
Joba Reminds me of John Rocker. He’s a head case and all he would be worth is a number 4 starter at best.