THURSDAY, 12:10am: Red Sox GM Theo Epstein and manager Terry Francona met with Scott Boras and Jayson Werth in Chicago on Wednesday, reports ESPN's Gordon Edes.
WEDNESDAY, 1:58pm: The Red Sox are serious about Crawford and have met with him and his representatives in Houston, according to Yahoo's Tim Brown (on Twitter). The Angels have also met face-to-face with Crawford, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports.
8:28am: The Red Sox have been relatively quiet this offseason, making a waiver claim and a couple minor trades, but generally staying out of the spotlight. They’ve been busy behind the scenes, according to Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald who reports the team is working hard to sign Carl Crawford or Jayson Werth.
Silverman suggests Crawford is asking for an eight-year deal and Werth is asking for a six-year deal. Since teams such as the Angels, Rangers and Tigers could use outfielders and have money, the asking price in terms of dollars and years figures to remain high for both players.
As Silverman points out, a new deal could surpass the J.D. Drew and John Lackey contracts to become the largest free agent deal under Boston's current ownership group.
My bet is that Werth goes to the Sox, and Crawford to the Angels, but in the back of my mind I think their is a chance that Werth also goes to the west coast either the Dodgers or the Giants.
Sorry The Dodgers nor the Giants could commit to 6years for Werth. I see Crawford with Angels and Werth with the Red Sox
The idiots on the D&C show this morning were complaining about how bad a deal Werth would be. Although I do agree to a point that it could become the next J.D. Drew (which wasn’t as bad as people like to make it out to be), I still think if the money is “relatively” right, he could be a very valuable asset to the organization.
Sure, if the money is right. But if it is larger than the Drew or Lackey deals it wont be right, at least not in my opinion.
Hindsight is 20/20. I don’t like looking at bad deals too much because their easy to critcize, there are more good deals than bad. If your team wins the world series than your deals were good.
I wasn’t refering to how good or bad I thought the Drew or Lackey deals were (I’m actually one Sox fan who still approves of both) I was simply saying that I don’t think Werth is more than that. I could see giving Werth a Drew type deal but that’s about it.
Problem for the Sox is, they have quite a few bad deals on the books. Fortunately, Drew, Ortiz and Cameron ($35mm in contracts for about $15mm in production) are done after this coming season, but the Lackey and Beckett deals are not good by any stretch and I am talking in years. Papellbon is going to get paid $11 or 12mm, which is tragic. They have no LF, technically. Which Ellsbury will show up this season. Cameron will play 40 games at the most in the field. Drew is drew. No 3rd Baseman. Scutaro is average. No solid catcher. The way I see it; the Sox have Youk, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, and Bard as their pillars of strength.
And as I’ve said before, sadly, the Red Sox don’t have the big name impact player, or potential Hall of Famer on the team. Let’s put it like this, I like a lot of other teams for next year far more (not including the Yankees) than the Sox. I like the Jays, Tigers, A’s, Rangers, Angels and shoot if the Mariners and Orioles get their crap together, well I think the Sox are going to have a far more difficult time getting to the post season in 2011 than they did this year.
These “bad deals” you’re referring to are tying about a small portion of what the Sox have to spend. That moneys not going to make a difference and they’ll be up at the end of the season.
They’re not even bad deals. He’s only blowing smoke because last year. He’ll crawl back under his rock when Beckett/Lackey rebound in 2011.
Wait, you don’t like the Red Sox? I am shocked…
I only speak in facts.
Who could argue with facts like “The way I see it…”, “I like…”, or “I think…”
This is coming from someone that is a fan of a team that has Arod signed for 10/275M, Burnett 5/75M, Still has a year of Posada at 13.1M,will be paying Tex 22.5 for 6 more years, Sabathia 23M for 6 more years and who knows how much they are about to over pay Jeter for how many years.
Please.. Don’t even go on about Drew at 1 more year at 14m, Becket 4/68m and Lackey 4 years left on 5/82m. The core of Boston’s team is all signed for value conscious dollars and for the foreseeable future
Hey John. Why do Boston fans always overreact and bring up Igawa, AJ and Arod as if it were the Yankee fan who signed those bad deals? It’s not like Johnsilver signed Jon Lackey or Century signed Igawa or Arod right?
cameron was a bad deal same with aj burnett and igawa dont judge lackey for 1 year though no one works for the nyy or boston we only can watch lmao no one here actually does the signings of these players.kei igawa is richer than most here same with alot of other guys who arent worth there value while alot of us work hard for alot less quite a sad world
cameron was a bad deal same with aj burnett and igawa dont judge lackey for 1 year though no one works for the nyy or boston we only can watch lmao no one here actually does the signings of these players.kei igawa is richer than most here same with alot of other guys who arent worth there value while alot of us work hard for alot less quite a sad world
Because Yankees fans continuously point to Beckett and Lackey like some certain Yankee fans present here today. Plus Igawa sucks.
It is tough to compare the long term effects of their bad contracts (both teams have them) because the Yankees seem to care a lot less about their money, likely because they have more. That makes the bad contracts not as big a deal in Yankeeland.
A bad contract is a bad contract, no matter how much money your team has. Look at the Giants they are STUCK with Rowland and Zito both bad contracts. Can you imagine what SF could do in this years FA Market without those bad contracts?
Yeah but just because someone calls Beckett or Lackey a bad deal doesn’t mean that they feel AJ or Igawa weren’t. Of course I’m taking this convo out of context but this back and forth stuff is kind of irrelevant. If I say “Signing Tulo to an extension when he’s alreadt under contract until 2014 should bring out comments about Arod”. Ppl act as if the fan is the GM for their team or something.
“Problem for the Sox is, they have quite a few bad deals on the books.”
Those are Century’s exact words. The comparrison is pretty direct as they play in the same division and are probably the Red Sox most direct competition and everyone knows Century is a Yankee fan (And has some psychotic and irrational grudge against Epstein). It is textbook pot calling the kettle black. As I’ve point out before, the Sox have TWO potential albatross contracts: Lackey and Beckett (And neither is that bad if Beckett bounces back to career norms and Lackey performs up to his 2010 second half numbers). Drew, Ortiz, Cameron and Papelbon’s contracts ALL lapse in a year and none will be brought back at their current price (Or likely at all). Besides Lackey and Beckett, the only players the Sox a contractual obligation to past 2011 are Matsuzaka (Free after 2012), Scutaro (Also free after 2012, and 2012 is only 1.5 million) Youkilis (Also a potential free agent after 2012), Lester, Pedroia and Iglesias. Of those players, Youkilis will be the most expensive at any point, clocking in at $12.5 million in 2012. Not exactly the “quite a few bad contracts” he cited.
Comparatively, the team HE routes for has FOUR contracts coming in at over $15 million per with the first one not coming up until after 2013 and another two (Jeter and Lee) almost certainly on the way. Of those four, three are for over $20 million annually. By month’s end, the Yankees will 90% likely have about $135 committed to 2013 and close to $100 million committed straight through to 2015 or so on a total of four players.
What it boils down to is the ludicrous hypocrisy of a Yankee fan saying ANY team has “quite a few bad contracts” when the Yankees roster is basically a cavalcade of ill-conceived contract offers.
Whoops. forgot about Rivera, who’s almost certainly going to get at least $15 million over two years.
Wow…it’s not a question of who has bad contracts and who doesn’t. It’s a matter of “baseball fans” should be able to comment on other teams issues w/o having to drudge up their own teams situations. You are not Theo Epstein so when someone says “Arod was signed to a bad deal” then the logical response would NOT be to say “Well the Red Sox have (insert whoever) signed to a bad deal as well”.
Unless someone is specifically comparing what their team does to what another does it’s irrelevant to keep bringing up examples that have no bearing on what another team says.
If I feel the Lackey deal blows then that’s my statement. To bring up AJ’s deal is irrelevant because I think that one blows too.
Most of us here are somewhat intelligent about baseball matters and all this partisan stupidity severely wears down the conversation.
Cut and paste the following. “The Yanke spend a lot of money. Arod, AJ and Kei Igawa are bad contracts. Jeter’s next contract will be overpaying by market standards. Jeter has lousy range”. Feel free to review the proceeding and mentally review it each and every time a Yankee fan chooses to make a posting regarding anything.
These yankees fans are a sad bunch. They are seriously obsessed with our team.
These yankees fans are a sad bunch. They are seriously obsessed with our team.
YFS78, I take offense when someone in particular is always attacking and never posts anything constructive. This never ceases with this one person in particular and once again..Was very easy to show how the shoe was MUCH bigger on the other foot.
You don’t see me refuting you like this, but when this one particular troll goes around this site and does nothing but attack, attack, attack the Red sox in one post after the other, many times with faulty, or inaccurate information?
Have kindly suggested to the person to stick to NYY topics, but they continue this “shotgun” approach mentioned and continue. noticed that this person can be docile on NY topics, perhaps put a leash on them there.
One thing I think a lot of people are overlooking is the loss of Farrell. By signing Curt Young, the Sox got one of the absolute best Pitching Coaches in MLB. The staffs that have been coming out of Oakland in his time have consistently been among the best in the league. Look for Lackey, Beckett, and Dick-K to all have rebound years this time around, and Lester and Buchholz to ride the success they found last season.The Giants proved that you do not need to have the 100 Million Dollar impact bats that teams like the Yankees always have. The Sox still have a team that should be among the league leaders defensively. Hopefully this year, the staff can carry the team.
So are you blaming the struggles of Beckett and Dice K on Farrell? If you give him blame for the bad results then don’t you have to give him credit for the successes as well like Buchholz?
Actually, I never blamed Farrell for anything. I am merely stating the fact that the Red Sox now have a far superior pitching coach.
Well you said now that Young is coming expect Beckett, Lackey and Dice-K to have better years. Doesn’t that mean in someway that Farrell was ineffective?
Can’t wait to see his magic constructing pitchers at Fenway instead of in Oakland.
Yeah, um, Pedroia already has ROY, 1 MVP, a silver slugger, and even a GG. Too bad he lacks “intangibles” or he might be a decent 2nd baseman. Maybe some year the Sox will get some HoF talent like the almighty Yankees.
Pedroia is real good but he has many many more years of high-level performance in front of him before he is in a HoF discussion.
I agree that Pedroia still has a ways to go to show that he is HoF worthy but to say that the the Sox have NO big time, impact players that have potential to reach the HoF is, imho, idiotic to the extreme. I know that Century is a troll but sometimes it’s fun to play with the trolls.
in 3 years the al east will be a 5 team race plus the royals have deadly prospects the tigers have a great team the a’s have a monster rotation and the rangers have amazing young prospects plus the twins and angels are winning teams to it will be tough in the years to come for both nyy and boston for sure cuz both have alot of age to them by 2013
It’s April right? Time to jump off the nearest bridge. Wait, it’s December 1st. Do you seriously think THIS is the roster going to Spring Training?
How about your beloved Yankees? You don’t have a SS or a closer. What to do? What to do?
They will over sign for both. But I would definitely give Rivera a 2 year deal.
Problem for the Sox is, they have quite a few bad deals on the books. Fortunately, Drew, Ortiz and Cameron ($35mm in contracts for about $15mm in production) are done after this coming season, but the Lackey and Beckett deals are not good by any stretch and I am talking in years. Papellbon is going to get paid $11 or 12mm, which is tragic. They have no LF, technically. Which Ellsbury will show up this season. Cameron will play 40 games at the most in the field. Drew is drew. No 3rd Baseman. Scutaro is average. No solid catcher. The way I see it; the Sox have Youk, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, and Bard as their pillars of strength.
And as I’ve said before, sadly, the Red Sox don’t have the big name impact player, or potential Hall of Famer on the team. Let’s put it like this, I like a lot of other teams for next year far more (not including the Yankees) than the Sox. I like the Jays, Tigers, A’s, Rangers, Angels and shoot if the Mariners and Orioles get their crap together, well I think the Sox are going to have a far more difficult time getting to the post season in 2011 than they did this year.
Werth cannot be compared to Drew. Drew suffers nagging injuries and misses a lot of time. Werth has proved to be durable.
Yeah, other than their numbers being almost identical they are nothing alike.
Neither one of them can drive in 100 runs.
Touche..
Drew batted in 100 runs one time; Werth has exactly 0 times (I know, I know Werth drove in 99 I’m just being difficult). Seriously though they have both batted in over 90 runs twice in their careers. I should have specified career numbers and not current numbers but if you look at their career numbers they are almost earily similar.
Still not Werth it.
Except Drew has been a full-time player for 12 seasons where as Werth really has only been full-time since 2008.
Both CC and Werth are interesting players and the Sox would be better w/ either. My only concern is that CC in a 8 year deal can be risky because once his speed becomes less than elite then he simply isn’t worth $20 mil per unless he can compensate with speed. Arguably a 15-20 hr/50 SB performance is = to a 30 hr and 20 SB performance. Question is, can anyone see CC developing into a 30 HR guy? Maybe the Pesky pole hill help him out?
crawford’s value is speed not power werth is more power both are risky but the sure bet would be upton to bad he would cost alot more in terms of players
That is a perfectly fair point when you are talking about cumulative stats such as RBI, which is part of why I try not to use stats like that. But when you are talking about career averages they are, well, averages so it doesn’t really make any difference that one has played longer than the other, unless you are talking about sample size but Werth has had four seasons where he played over 100 games so I would say that that is a fair enough sample size to see the type of player he is (or more correctly has been which is what I am talking about; Werth has had the same career trajectory as Drew). Just a few examples:
Career BA: Drew .281 – Werth .272
Career OPS: Drew .886 – Werth .848
ISO: Drew .218 – Werth .210
The major differences I see are:
BB/K: Drew .77 – Werth .50
and UZR/150: Drew 6.7 – Werth 10.3
So Werth strikes out more and walks less but has better range in the outfield. And if you wanted to look at cumulative stats Werth has played in basically half as many games as Drew and has ≈ half as many HR’s, Doubles, Hits, and RBI.
As for your comparison of Crawford and Werth; if they both get the deal they are looking for they would be approximately the same age at the end of their contracts so I would argue that there is an equal level of risk there. Werth’s game is base more on his power than Crawfords is and how many times have we seen a hitters power start to leave them in the mid 30’s?
Crawford might not either (says the guy who wants Crawford even at $7 MM more a year than Werth) but he will be more valuable OVERALL then Werth. Not Werth it.
crawford did amazing for the rays for years you cant base value on rbi;s how about how much chances
That and the rediculous, and let me stress rediculous amount more it will take to sign Werth then it did to sign Drew. Take the extra year or two and 5 MM per year as I said in my previous post and sign Crawford already. Not Werth it.
Ok, even so, Red Sox aren’t looking for an upgrade to JD Drew, but an upgrade to the upgrade to JD Drew. Look for something big to happen. Not all the deals that go down are ones that are yaked about for months.
nagging injuries that 5 year olds can push on through with…hang nail, bruised knee, minor cut, lets see oh and the worst of all the dreadful dizzy spells.
who will play 1b this year in boston? youkilis? or will he be at 3b?
Hopefully Beltre will be back at 3rd.
That would be the end of the Adrian Gonzalez era. Do we really want to replace A-Gon with Beltre?
Because it’s obviously a given that the Red Sox trade for Gonzalez.
lol, beat me to it.
Yeah that’s what I said. I said “The Sox will trade for Adrian Gonzalez”. Get off the jealousy dude. I said if we sign Beltre, we won’t be going after Gonzo anymore, which would put an end to that era. The Sox have been in ties with the Padres about Gonzo for years now, and it’s no secret that Theo covets AG, so signing Beltre would tie up the corners and put an end to that discussion. Try not to put words in my mouth when you can’t even understand what I said.
I stopped reading after Get off the jealousy dude.
Good. Because you weren’t part of the conversation. Quit being nosey.
while I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.
Peter Griffin
or Voltaire. whichever
I’m glad you said that.
RSD likes this comment? goodie!
Jealousy? I’m a Red Sox fan myself.
Apparently, Devern Hansack doesn’t give it away…
No but it’s a given that they don’t if they sign Beltre. It’s also pretty much a given that they don’t sign him as a free agent next year if Beltre is here.
Woah. Since when do people read comments and understand them on this board?
My Mom always say I is a good reeder.
Me fail English? Thats unpossible.
Me fail English? Thats unpossible.
Can you reach the Crispix? Yes I can!!
Do you get the reference?
hehe
It’s also a given that Anderson will never pan out…seriously i love how a guy like Theriot can be an everyday player with below average numbers and this guy gets a sniff of the big leagues for a month and doesnt show jack for it.
No, but if they resign Beltre it most likely means there is no chance at Fielder, AGon or possibly Pujols when they are eligible for FA. I don’t see the Sox trading Youk.
but they’ll have an open DH spot..
I’ve heard that said before but in your opinion who would you put at DH? I don’t think Beltre would be valuable enough to justify his contract if he were a DH, Fielder or Gonzalez likely wouldn’t agree to sign as a DH and would have to be paid like a 1B even if they would, so that would leave Youkilis as the likely DH and with his defensive value at first that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. Or would you go with some sort of rotation?
Why wouldn’t fielder agree to DH? He’s a perfect DH if I’ve ever seen one
While I completely agree that he is a perfect fit for DH, I think he has said he doesn’t want to DH and he wants to play first. Not only that but he certainly isn’t going to sign a DH type of contract so while you might get him to agree to DH you would have to pay him 1B money.
With the way baseball is evolving, Prince isn’t going to have very many teams going anywhere near his demands.
Maybe you’re right. He would be quite a DH.
Maybe you’re right. He would be quite a DH.
Maybe they should trade for Fielder to play first this year moving Youk to third and sign Fielder to an extension to DH then sign A-Gonz to play first after next year and end up with both of them… (I know, I know but a guy can dream right?)
If Boston had to rank Fielder on their wish list, he would be number 3, I am going to leave Pujols on two on this one because well, he wont be a free agent, the Cardinals are pinching pennies and already have three dumptrucks ready to unload hundred dollar bills on Pujols’ lawn, but if he becomes a FA, he is number one but by default, it would be Agon number one on their wish list and it is not to make Youkilis a DH, it is to make him a 3rd baseman.
Who pays a DH 20M a year?
I’m sorry, where in our conversation did we mention money sir?
You don’t think the Sox end up with one of Gonzalez/Fielder/Pujols? (I don’t think Pujols, but he will be a FA)
I think they have to. Else Youkilis stays at 1st and they have to find an impact 3rd baseman. Not sure there will be many of those on the near horizon.
You think if Pujols becomes a FA, the Red Sox will pass on him for Agon? seriously? look, Adrian is a solid player, but Pujols is a guy who only comes around once a generation, go to ebay and look up the guys rookie card, its worth a grand straight up, why? because he is the best player of our generation, remember he has only been in the league for 10 years and has how many home runs? look up Adrians rookie card, you can get it for 100 bucks with his auto, he is solid, but no Pujols.
I would certainly hope the Red Sox would go after Pujols. I just don’t think the Cards will let him get away. I kinda think Pujols wants to stay there too. But if he does want to test the market, I would definitely take him first amongst the three. That’s a no-brainer.
(I don’t think Pujols, but he will be a FA) if you think Pujols will be a FA, believe me the Red Sox will say Adrian who?
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think you misread what he was saying. I think he meant that Pujols is technically set to be a free agent but he doesn’t think that the Cards will let it get that far so it wont likely be him (because they wont have that option, not because they would rather have A-Gonz.)
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think you misread what he was saying. I think he meant that Pujols is technically set to be a free agent but he doesn’t think that the Cards will let it get that far so it wont likely be him (because they wont have that option, not because they would rather have A-Gonz.)
That’s the Sox problem, they want Gonzalez so bad they don’t know what to do with 3b.
No.
Do people not realize that signing Beltre does not prevent a Gonzalez signing next year??? Papi will be a 36 year old free agent next offseason and the Sox will need a big lefty bat. Youk only will have 2 more years on his contract, him and A-Gon can easily split time at 1B/DH for 2 years.
When it comes down to it, next year both Ortiz and Gonzalez will be free agents and Theo isn’t gonna pick the guy who is 36.
Yes and no. Depends on the $$. Mariner Money= No way. Raise from 2010= Sure.
I actually prefer the idea of Konerko at 1B I mean the guy rakes, unless a deal for A Gon can be done during the offseason.
sign a guy for 1yr for either and wait for prince or adrian stay away from beltre long term
sign a guy for 1yr for either and wait for prince or adrian stay away from beltre long term
The Sox need to sign someone for the outfield. Preferably someone that can hit. Losing V-Mart
So is every Major League team. We’ve heard these rumors since 2009. Why is this news?
If they are right that either one would be the largest deal given out under the current ownership I really hope they go hard after Crawford even though he would be the larger of the two. I just don’t see Werth being worth that kind of money, or years.
Agreed. Werth is the opposite of clutch.
Jose Bautista for Jacoby!
That would be a bad trade for Boston as its likely Bautista had a fluke year
How do you know that?
He’s a fan of the yankees.. they get a magazine in the off season with a list of things that will happen in 2011 .
Right, because walking 100 times is a fluke?
Pitchers couldn’t see the strike zone they were the blinded by the sun off Jose’s beard… Don’t believe me? Check this out
Jose after 2 days of no shaving – .305/.413./.690 53 HR’s/93 BB
Jose after a fresh shave – .202/.312/.402 1 HR/7 BB
Woah….sooo intense….
rumor is Bautista was so good because he got his beard from none other than Chuck Norris…it explains everything.
Yeah but according to FanGraphs his OPS+ wasn’t so bad if he was wearing Old Spice after he shaved…
He’s a fan of the yankees.. they get a magazine in the off season with a list of things that will happen in 2011 .
That would be a bad trade for Boston as its likely Bautista had a fluke year
Signing Crawford for eight years would mean that he would be locked up through age 37. He seems to hit to the opposite field a fair amount, though, so his bat could probably play pretty well in Fenway. Nevertheless, I’d be leery about the Red Sox signing Crawford, a player whose value greatly depends on his ability to field and steal bases, through age 37. I could, however, see them hammering out a five or six year deal with one or two vesting options.
Apparently the Sox don’t mind signing old outfielders. If we’re open to signing Cameron for 2 years, we should at least get Crawford for 5 good years and 2 old years. At least we’ll get 5 good years out of him. We just picked up the 2 old years on Cam.
Right, but Cameron was worth 4.2 and 4.4 WAR in 2008 and 2009, respectively. He was playing around his career average even at an advanced age. I’m not sure how the front office perceives Crawford’s aging, but I’m not sure they’d be willing to commit eight years to him.
I’m not saying that I would agree with the contract, I think it would eat up the Sox at the end, but Theo is taking a risk on youth by letting Salty be the catcher this year, and he’s saving money in that aspect, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he took a bit of a risk with a 7 year/133mm (19mm AAV) contract for Crawford. At some point you have to hand out a monster contract to a position player. The Sox would have an incredibly dynamic OF for the next few years with Crawford – Ellsbury – Kalish. All 3 of them have 40+ SB speed.
I don’t see Kalish as an everyday of for the Sox.
Let me persuade you. First off, Kalish started in AA last year, moved all the way up and was our starting CF for 1/2 of a season thanks to some injuries but also stellar play.
Kalish’s rookie line (Age – 22, 53 games) – .252/.305/.405 4 HR, 24 RBI, 10 SB
Crawford’s rookie line (Age – 21, 63 games) – .259/.290/.371, 2 HR, 30 RBI, 9 SB
If you honestly don’t see Kalish as a starting RF with multiple all-star appearances, I have to question your ability to judge young talent.
You’re already calling Kalish a future all star because Crawford has been and all star and had a similar rookie line to Kalish?
Well I guess since the fans vote and I guess since probably a majority of the fans who vote in the AL are Yankees and Red Sox fans, there’s a chance he does make the team.
But please, can we see him play a full seaosn and all before you say he is all star talented? My gosh.
I’m not saying he isn’t going to be, but you can’t guarantee it.
Yes. I’m already calling Kalish an all-star. I really see him as being a 15-20 HR/40-45 SB guy in his prime. I watched just about every game he played last year and was incredibly impressed with him.
I’m not calling him average, but you know more times than not, these “all star caliber” players turns out to be average at best don’t you?
I’m not calling him average, but you know more times than not, these “all star caliber” players turns out to be average at best don’t you?
If he’s that good why are they looking for an outfielder.
Because Crawford is a stud and Drew will be gone after next year, which is when Kalish will take over in RF?
How many at bats?
Kalish 163, Crawford 259.
Also, Carl Crawford was not a full-time baseball player until he literally landed in the minors. He was a multi-sport athlete and eventually chose to be awesome at baseball because it gave him the best career path.
So leave the Kalish starting at AA and eventually becoming a rookie out of it, Crawford, like Austin Jackson, had a lot more to overcome in a baseball sense.
Kalish had a scholarship to go play football at Virginia if he wanted to, but he got drafted by the Red Sox, so he chose baseball. Most position players, especially dynamic outfielders, were multi-sport athletes in high school and were far from full-time baseball players until they “literally land in the minors”. So don’t try to act like Kalish focused every day on playing baseball since the day he was 5. Casey Kelly had a scholarship to play football at Tennessee.
Also, Carl Crawford was not a full-time baseball player until he literally landed in the minors. He was a multi-sport athlete and eventually chose to be awesome at baseball because it gave him the best career path.
So leave the Kalish starting at AA and eventually becoming a rookie out of it, Crawford, like Austin Jackson, had a lot more to overcome in a baseball sense.
All that with less than 200 plate appearances. Slow down a minute! Wait until he starts for a year or two.
Crawford was also in the majors 2.5 years earlier than Kalish, age-wise, despite being within 300 minor league at bats (Crawford had more). When you’re just learning a new sport, I think putting up similar numbers at age 20 in the majors is more impressive. Not to mention, you can PMS all over this site when people disagree with you all you want, but at the end of the day you’re the one proclaiming all-stars based on half a season of baseball because of less than 300 MLB at bats.
Christ, and I should go home? Seems to be you’re as “home” as you can get.
How was he learning a new sport?!? He had played baseball in high school. It’s not like a Rays scout went to a high school gym in Houston and saw him play kickball and decide to sign him, and then he had to learn eye to hand coordination. You’re making it sound like Crawford had never picked up a bat before. I guess hitting .638 his senior year in high school, man, he had no idea what was going on around him huh?? And he was only 1.5 years younger than Kalish, not 2.5 Go check your math.
You’re right, you got me. I’m damn convinced that because Crawford and Kalish had a similar 300 at bats Kalish is going to be the next Crawford, and somehow that means the Sox shouldn’t pursue Crawford in 2011.
Just for reference to your undeniable ability to notice talent, let’s look at these numbers from a guy after his first 520 abs in the majors:
.275/.355 with 42 extra base hits, 27HR/87 RBI.
Yeah, that’s Shane Spencer.
But don’t worry Shane was right around 26. Then again, age doesn’t matter and 300 abs makes you not only completely confident Kalish is a multi-time all star and adversary to Carl Crawford, but also makes you question anyone’s intelligence who disagrees.
So, you’re not going to say anything about Shane Spencers kneeinjury that put him down and he never could quite recover from? Nah, lets not mention that, that would weaken your argument too much!!
Where did I say that the Sox shouldn’t pursue Crawford in 2011? Oh, wait, I’ve been advocating the move the entire time? Oh, wait, the reason I compared the initial stats was because that’s all we have to go on, and I was responding to someone who said they didn’t think Kalish will be an everyday player in the MLB?
I don’t question anyone’s intelligence on here, I state my point and argue for it. Nothing wrong with that. When you start posting trying to give Crawford an upper hand on Kalish because he played football in high school, but you don’t even check to see if Kalish may have played football in high school, I’m going to rip you for it. Do some research.
That only further illustrates my point. Ryan Kalish has had 300 MLB at bats. He isn’t anything yet. Does he have the potential to be good? Yes. Does he have the potential to be an everyday player? I think he already is. But whether it’s a hot start, whether it will be injuries, or whatever, making a statement like,
“If you honestly don’t see Kalish as a starting RF with multiple all-star appearances, I have to question your ability to judge young talent.”
is foolish for someone with less than a full season in the majors. As a previous commenter said, there are tons and tons of guys (Spencer included) who show limitless or all star potential who flame out, get hurt, or end up average. Cameron Maybin comes to mind perhaps most recently. Personally, I feel everyone’s hype about Danny Valencia is overrated, but that may just be me.
You just can’t make statements like that. If you said this kid has the potential to be a multi-time All-Star, than fine, he had solid numbers in the minors, he was an above-average prospect and though he wasn’t great in the majors, he was OK, very good defensively and playing in perhaps the toughest division in the toughest market to play baseball.
But you didn’t say that, you said he WILL be a multiple all-star with some number predictions, that’s just foolish, especially just because Carl Crawford two years younger had similar and comparable numbers in less than 300 at bats. That’s my issue.
And for the record, Crawford signed a letter of intent to play for Nebraska, he was pulled away with first round money by the Rays. He had to learn an entirely new hitting approach at the age of 17 in his first year in the minors.
Kalish played football, yes, but as someone else said, many good athletes play multiple sports. The difference is baseball was an afterthought for Carl Crawford and he really had very little knowledge of the game itself when he started, yet he still put up similar numbers to Kalish two years younger after just about the same amount of time in the minors. Yet you think they’re comparable despite one having a body of work and the other not.
Let me persuade you. First off, Kalish started in AA last year, moved all the way up and was our starting CF for 1/2 of a season thanks to some injuries but also stellar play.
Kalish’s rookie line (Age – 22, 53 games) – .252/.305/.405 4 HR, 24 RBI, 10 SB
Crawford’s rookie line (Age – 21, 63 games) – .259/.290/.371, 2 HR, 30 RBI, 9 SB
If you honestly don’t see Kalish as a starting RF with multiple all-star appearances, I have to question your ability to judge young talent.
Well said. That outfield sounds great. Sign me up.
I still think they will resign Tek, and have a really long look at that Lavarnway guy who looked solid in the AFL championship game, he may be the biggest surprise of the year for the Red Sox.
If there was one guy who i could think of that could age as well as Cameron, it would be Crawford.
beat me to it.
The Sox arent afraid of outfielders in the 37 year old range…see Cameron,Mike.
They might be afraid now…see Cameron,Mike.
Yeah Cameron was hurt all last year, my point is Crawford’s contract would be done by the time he is 37, and so he could be good up until that point, and Cameron will have a good year this year and wont be as bad on paper as he was last year.
8 years, seriously?
Why do the Rangers have an interest in the OF? They have Hamilton, Cruz, Murphy, Borbon, etc. They don’t need an overpriced outfielder. Borbon could arguably be viewed as a raw Carl Crawford.
Agree – why are the Rangers in the mix here?? They need to save that dough and extend Hamilton, he’s much, much, much better than Crawford and is the anchor of the Rangers OF.
as much as I love Crawford as a player.. 8 years is just too long..I’d sign him to a 6/80 though
Crawford would feel insulted if he got offered a 6/80 contract. He’ll make at least 16-18 AAV. 6/120 with an option he may take. Limit the years, increase the value.
Well tough if he feels insulted.. As good as crawford is, there aren’t many teams going gaga over him. If the Sox end up finding him to expensive and target worth, Crawford really would only have one big market suitor in the Angels…
MLB free agency is just plain ridiculous. Its why so many teams are re investing in to scouting and development. Its just a better option then handing out 100 million dollar contracts and 5+ year deals.
I’m not saying I agree with it, I am a big fan of the home grown talent. The Rays, for example, to me are a much better organization than the Yankees because top to bottom they go out and developed their talent, did a lot of good research, drafted really well, took advantage of high draft picks, etc. The Yankees just go out and outspend. Anyone can do that if you have the resources.
yankees also drafted a top end starter, catcher, ss and closer who have stuck with the team through 5 world championships, not many other teams have drafted such impact players and kept them, so its hard to say its ALL resources, but it obviously helps..
It also helped Tampa that they finished last for a decade and accumulated high picks, but considering many people already consider their window to be closing… is 10 years in last place worth 2 play off appearances??
I bet the Pirates would say yes. They’d be due for 6-8 playoff appearances.
pirates are the exception, not the rule
Stuck with the team…for about $70/M per season…AND one left for awhile…
I’m sure if the Rays gave Crawford $20M per season he’d stay.
Right..and Boston is too poor to sign their draft picks? and keep their stars? what exactly is your point, if you even have one.
“The Yankees just go out and outspend”
Yeah because they didn’t develop a bunch of future hall of famers, MVP candidates and All Stars in the last decade or so. Shoot, you could even make the argument that if both Brett Gardner and Ellsbury were both put on the market tomorrow, Gardner would get a lot more interest. Anyway you look at it, the Yankees have developed quality players at every position.
Yeah they have. Look at A-Rod, Teixera, Swisher, Sabathia, Granderson. Gardner would get half the interest Ellsbury would, don’t fool yourself. The Yankees developed Rivera, Jeter, Cano, Posada, and Pettitte. Hughes won’t ever amount to what the Yankees think he will, he’s completely overvalued by Yankees fans. I’m not saying that the Sox don’t overvalue their players, but Hughes is overvalued by Yanks fans.
Swisher and Granderson were acquired via trade, so two strikes there. Last I checked, based on rumors here, about 1/2 dozen teams have contacted the Yankees about Gardner (with serious interest) and last I checked no one has asked about Ellsbury. Actually I can’t remember a single rumor where someone asked (emphasis on the word asked) for him. “Hughes is overvalued by Yanks fans.” Kind of like Buchholz is to the Red Sox fans? Just saying…Guy won 18 games last year and is a power pitcher. Anyway you look at it soxfan0928, your logic is completely off. Sorry, dude.
“Guy won 18 games last year and is a power pitcher” BAHAHAHAHAHA. Dude. Go look at his 2010 stats. He AVERAGED 9.6 runs of support PER GAME!!!!!! HE LEAD THE LEAGUE!!!!!! He had a 4.19 ERA and only posted a 7.45 K/9 ratio! Shaun Marcum throws 88 mph and had a higher K/9 ratio than Hughes. Dude you’re a joke. Come ON man be serious!!!
I was not trying to show that the Yanks went out and signed Swish and Grandy, I was saying they aren’t homegrown, but I can see how I didn’t portray that clearly.
Clearly you don’t pay attention to any of the Upton rumors because Ellsbury and Bard were two centerpieces that Towers wanted from the Sox in exchange for Upton. That was rumored maybe..uhh…2 weeks ago. Not sure how horrible your memory is, but it must be incredibly bad.
Don’t be knocking Marcum! That 88 mph fastball packs a punch and is followed up by one of the best change ups in the game. ( I know you weren’t insulting Shaun, I’m just saying)
I think Marcum is a great pitcher! But he’s not a power pitcher, and that’s the point I was trying to portray. Century said that Hughes is a “power pitcher” but he has a lower k/9 ratio than Marcum, who is much more of a finesse pitcher.
“Ellsbury and Bard were two centerpieces that Towers wanted from the Sox in exchange for Upton” Took me a while, but I located what you were saying. It was a tweet (one single tweet) from Heyman, which never said that was what Towers requested. It was more speculation on Heyman’s part. Also it was mentioned that these two would not be centerpieces, but more so “part of” a package. Still to this day I have yet to see a rumor that says “so and so ASKED for Ellsbury.” You can’t honestly believe that just Ellsbury and Bard got it done or more importantly were the center pieces of any deal for Upton. Still doesn’t take away from the fact that multiple teams have contacted the Yankees over the last 12 months about Gardner.
are you actually arguing over who has been asked for more? I’m sure Justin Upton is asked for more times then Albert Pujols, doesn’t really mean anything.
They ask why are you still playing this weak armed bum. haha
“Still doesn’t take away from the fact that multiple teams have contacted the Yankees over the last 12 months about Gardner.”
I’ll go back 12 months with you.
12/8/09 – The Tigers wanted Buchholz + Ellsbury for Granderson, Sox declined.
All 2009 offseason – Padres in talks with Red Sox over Adrian Gonzalez. Ellsbury included in talks
At the trade deadline, the Padres inquired about Ellsbury.
2010 offseason, Towers included Ellsbury in the trade talks.
That’s a lot of action for a young CF. I guess his 120 SB over 2 years is a lot more attractive than you think. Oh – and by the way – don’t forget he missed virtually the entire season with rib injuries last year…
First just let me say I think Gardner will never be a high caliber player, he is called a “pest” because he walks alot or gets a basehit and steals bases, when they figure this “pest” out he will anger you for years ans years as he will be the record holder for most times picked off, second Elssbury was in more rumors when he was a rookie than Gardner was ever in, only thing was Theo clung to him and envisions him only on the Red Sox and will never want to watch him play for another team, just like Cashman doesnt ever want to see Gardner play for another team, so what is the point here? seriously who cares if they arent mentioned, that only means they are a core part of the team, which would make you wonder what the Yanks think of Gardner and his “pest” presence.
Okajima was a “pest” in 2007. Look how that turned out. Just sayin…
um ok?
by the way speculations are the same as rumors
Sox fan you are the most biased person in the forum. Buch is one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball by sox fans. His ERA was great but have you looked at his BABIP? Guy shoulda had an ERA above 4. He is not nearly the pitcher Hughes is in all honesty and I believe Hughes is 2 years younger.Also, of course Gardner has way more value than Ellesbury. According to WAR Gardner was one of the most essential players in the league this year. A lot of scouts also say he is faster than Ellesbury and on top of that he was out all year long! Stop giving red sox fans a bad name and being so bias.
Yeah I’m biased because I said that the Yankees overvalue Hughes and that the Sox overvalue their players too. Buch is 100% a better pitcher than Hughes is.
“Look at his BABIP”. Ok .265. Felix Hernandez – .273. David Price – .279. Adam Wainwright – .281. Ubaldo Jimenez – .273.
I guess Hughes is better than all of those pitchers because his BABIP isn’t as low. None of those pitchers earned their ERA or will ever be as good as they were this year.
You can have Gardner and his 2010 line of .277/.383/.379/.762 with 47 SB.
I’ll take Ellsbury and his 2009 (last healthy season) line of .301/.355/.415/.780 with 70 SB.
You’re a riot… probably one of the least knowledgeable fans i’ve run into. read some non-red sox articles for once. Bucholtz had a 6.22 k/9 which is AWFUL, not only that but his BABIP was well below the league average. Those other pitchers you named have k/9’s of 8.11 (price), 8.36 (hernandez), 8.32 (waino), 8.69 (ubaldo)
Trust me all of those pitchers deserve the hype, they are elite. Buchholtz is NOT. His FIP was 1.3 HIGHER than his ERA, thats unheard of. Basically means he was one of the luckiest pitchers in baseball.
He is a good pitcher, but hes not where you put him.
Also Ellsbury was rated one of the WORST defensive centerfielders in the game with a UZR of -18.6 in 2009 (i realize UZR is a long term stat but thats just bad)! That is Terrible. Gardner is rated one of the best defensive outfielders in the game and actually rated #1 this year with a UZR at 22.
Please before you tell me the Red Sox have 15 Ken Griffey Jr.’s and 20 Felix Hernandez’s in your farm system, do some research.
Well first off if you’re going to call me the “least knowledgeable” fan you’ve run into, then go on to try to tell me how to do things, at least spell Buchholz’s name correctly. There’s no “t” in it, smart guy.
Second off, I was not comparing Buchholz to the likes of any of those pitchers. I was commenting on how they all had low BABIP’s, and that a low BABIP does not mean that you’re just “lucky”, but that a lot of good pitchers have lower BABIP’s.
By the way – the Sox were offered Cliff Lee for Clay Buchholz straight up in 2009, but rejected it. Apparently I’m not the only one who thinks that Buch is going to be an exceptional pitcher.
Gardner plays LF for the Yankees. Try having him play CF at Fenway and see what his UZR would be.
Tori Hunter’s UZR was -2.2 this year. He hasn’t had a positive UZR since 2005. All he’s done is win 9 consecutive gold gloves. Don’t give me that UZR bullcrap. Ellsbury is MUCH better defensively than one bad year’s UZR. Why don’t you talk about 2008 when Ellsbury’s UZR was 21.3? Oh because it’s incredibly inconvenient for your argument, that’s why.
Next.
No I wasn’t ignoring those stats, just bringing up recent trends since ellsbury was out all year. But if you want to bring up career stats how about the fact that Brett Gardner’s WAR for his career (1 year shorter than ellsbury) is 8.6 meanwhile ellsbury is only at 7.7. Oh yea and this was gardners first year as a regular.
And previous to this year, if you had any clue, you’d know that prior to this year gardner played CENTER. Centerfield in NY is much larger than it is @ Fenway.
Back to your pitching argument, if you look at the FIP at the other pitchers you named, they at least resemble the pitchers ERA. Buchholz had a fluke ERA year. Seriously, look it up, read some articles, you might learn something. I’m not saying he’s a bad pitcher, just don’t be ignorant to reality because he’s on your team!
Oh PLEASE! Talk about manipulating stats!! 8.6 to 7.7 WAR and you say that he’s played 1 year shorter than Ellsbury.Come on man. You know just as well as I do that Ellsbury was out this entire year, so they’ve played the same amount of seasons at two and a half. And Ellsbury played with broken ribs in the games that he did play this year, which is why he had a -0.2 WAR. So if you REALLY look at the stats, it’s 7.9 (Ells 2.5 healthy seasons) to 8.6. Not nearly as much as a discrepancy as you make it out to be. Yeah. Gardner played CF for the Yankees in 2009 and his UZR decreased by almost 12 points! Yankee Stadium’s CF is 408 feet deep, Fenways is 420 with that horrible triangle back there to play into. CF in Boston is a complete terrible stadium to play, I’m sure Gardner and Ellsbury can agree on that. As for the pitching argument, I was not defending his ERA vs FIP, only time will tell what really prevails. I was saying that Buch is better than Hughes. Buch’s ERA, FIP, and WAR were all better than Hughes, and Hughes BABIP was .281, not much higher than Buch’s .265. As of right now, you can’t argue that Hughes is a better pitcher. They pitch in the same division, face the same hitters, and Hughes wouldn’t have won 18 games or gotten close without his 9.6 runs per game of support.
just to give you some incite, Hughes is 24, when Buchholz WAS 24 he went 2 – 9 with a 6.75 ERA. And still last year, Hughes had a better walk rate AND strikeout rate. Basically your only argument is ERA. So we can have this conversation in 2 years when Hughes is the same age as Buchholz was this year but basically Buchholz is in his prime and Hughes still is years away from his prime.
2009 is more in line with the kind of pitcher Buchholz is.
2009 is in line with the kind of pitcher Buchholz is because…..??? Because you’re a Yankees fan and want Buchholz to be a bad pitcher? Because his FIP in 2009 was 1.3 higher than his 2010 FIP? Because Buch’s 2010 FIP was consistent with CC Sabathia’s? Because in his last 8 starts of 2009, he went 5-1 with a 3.49 ERA?
I will say this. I am 110% happy that Gardner had a good year last year, as well as Swisher, because if there was a hole in the Yankees OF, Crawford would be going there, and I’m a huge fan of Crawford. I think Crawford – Ellsbury – Kalish would be an incredibly dynamic outfield worth about 120-150 stolen bases between the 3 of them.
Except your stuck with Cameron and Drew. You may get Crawford, but your OF in 2011 will either be Ellsbury/Cameron/Drew or Crawford/Cameron/Drew if Ellsbury is traded and Crawford is signed.
Lucy Liu was also stuck with Cameron and Drew though also, who are now potheads
We’re stuck with Cam and Drew for 1 year. I was saying from 2012 forward. Drew will be hurt for a good 70-80 games this season because last year he almost played a full season. Cameron’s got a grandkid on the way, he’ll be retired by May.
I don’t see where you mentioend 2012, it seems everyone is talking about next year. I believe if the Red Sox sign an OFer, Ellsbury is either on the bench or is traded.
I didn’t. I should have, but I didn’t. My bad, not clear on what I was saying. If the Sox get rid of Ellsbury, then in 2012 they’re going to be in the same boat they’re in now – looking for a FA outfielder to take over RF for Drew. They won’t trade Ellsbury, not this offseason. His value is way too low after the injury ridden season.
Sorry guys I just really wanted to see if the posts would keep getting skinnier or if it would ever actually start moving them away from the edge of the screen and start making them wider again. There I’m done now…
why post so much in a red sox post get a life your never gonna play with jeter or arod in your life come on now no one cares
“why post so much in a red sox post”
Says the Rays “fan”?
Not to mention A-Rod is only technically a FA signing because he opted out of the contract the Yankees TRADED for when they included Soriano (from the system) as the main piece in the Texas deal.
Swisher and Granderson were acquired via trade, so two strikes there. Last I checked, based on rumors here, about 1/2 dozen teams have contacted the Yankees about Gardner (with serious interest) and last I checked no one has asked about Ellsbury. Actually I can’t remember a single rumor where someone asked (emphasis on the word asked) for him. “Hughes is overvalued by Yanks fans.” Kind of like Buchholz is to the Red Sox fans? Just saying…Guy won 18 games last year and is a power pitcher. Anyway you look at it soxfan0928, your logic is completely off. Sorry, dude.
Yeah they have. Look at A-Rod, Teixera, Swisher, Sabathia, Granderson. Gardner would get half the interest Ellsbury would, don’t fool yourself. The Yankees developed Rivera, Jeter, Cano, Posada, and Pettitte. Hughes won’t ever amount to what the Yankees think he will, he’s completely overvalued by Yankees fans. I’m not saying that the Sox don’t overvalue their players, but Hughes is overvalued by Yanks fans.
Aroid, CC, Burnett, Texiera = $100,000,000+
Yeah, the Yankees don’t “just go out and spend”. Nope, not at all. They probably will pinch pennies and not bid on Cliff Lee this year and instead will develop a starting pitcher. Riiiiiight….
If you are interested, those are the only players the Yankees have on their roster who they have via FA. Everyone else is homegrown or came via trade.
Just because the Yankees acquired someone thru trade doesn’t mean that they aren’t there because of the Yankee’s massive payroll. The Yankees routinely acquire very good players with very high $$$ contracts at the trade deadline.
Well that’s not the Yankees fault that those teams gave the players a high contract. And it’s their decision if they want to trade with the Yankees. An accepted trade is as easy as a rejected trade. Remember how many times the Dbacks rejected trading Randy Johnson ($16 million contract) to the Yankees before a deal finally went through?
I find it laughable when Yankee homers try to pretend that the reason the Yankees are competitive every year is because of their farm system and not because they have the advantage of being able to offer contracts other teams are unable to offer and because they are able to acquire good players thru payroll dumps.
Well that’s not the Yankees fault that those teams gave the players a high contract. And it’s their decision if they want to trade with the Yankees. An accepted trade is as easy as a rejected trade. Remember how many times the Dbacks rejected trading Randy Johnson ($16 million contract) to the Yankees before a deal finally went through?
You obviously know nothing about the Yankees, since half the team is homegrown
Actually 13 of 25 players on their roster on opening day were homegrown
Jeter, Mariano, Pettitte, Hughes, Posada, Joba, Robertson, Cano, Gardner, Nick Johnson, Marcus Thames, Cervelli and Pena.
why does it have to always be about nyy vs boston this topic has nothing to do with that come on can anyone stay on topic instead of always saying the same useless crap both have developed a fair share of there players
Really? You should do some research before making assumptions. The 2010 Yankee team had the following homegrown players: Jeter, Mo, Pettitte, Posada, Cano, Gardner, Robertson, Hughes, Joba, Cervelli and Pena on the roster all season.
11 out of 25 “homegrown”..so it seems they don’t just “go out and outspend”
I never understood the obsession with homegrown, I really dont care where my players come from as long as they win.
Boston fans care desperately about “homegrown” because they still buy this myth of blue collar bootstrap baseball there even though that team rakes money in and robs their fans just as much as any team in the league. Homegrown is this badge of honor myth perpetuated by Gammons and Theo. It’s the theory that we’re not going to be money spending pigs. We’re going to roll up our LL Bean flannel sleeves and out work the rest of the league and develop stand up players of character in our no nonsense organization. They won’t sully themselves with greedy free agents and instead will craft a team of real American boys who would die for the Red Sox if the nation asked them to. In other words, it’s garbage. I don’t see what the difference is between signing good free agents, using prospects to make good trades and developing a few players along the way to help you win. There’s no better way to win. There’s just winning. Just because you develop your own players doesn’t make it cleaner. Especially in a draft where bad teams pass on good players because only Boston, NY and Detroit can afford them. That makes the draft a farce when the players can tell teams they can’t afford them and the three highest spending teams can sit at the end of the round and pluck talent.
I wish I could like this repeatedly.. Probably one of the best posts I’ve ever read on this site.
Best comment I’ve ever read on here from anyone.
Is that what you think? I think Boston fans care about “homegrown” because that generally means affordable and that the Sox’ scouting department knows how to identify talent (supplemented by the fact that small market teams let tough signs slip).
The Sox loved Manny, Pedro, Damon, Schilling for many years (admittedly before souring near the end in some cases) and they were FAs.
I think that the fans of every team hope that the draft produces All Stars and would prefer that over being big spenders in the FA market.
I’m betting that you cheer for Microsoft and Verizon, too. Some people just like honest and fair competition. While I realize that the Yankees spending double, triple, or even quadruple what other teams spend on payroll isn’t against the rules, it doesn’t mean that there is a level playing field. People hate the Yankees because they believe in winning by bludgeoning people to death with their wallets. I wonder what the Yankees would look like if MLB teams could slap a “franchise” tag on their players like teams can in the NFL.
I have a Microsoft computer and a Verizon phone. I’m also a Yankees fan. So yes, I root for all three because for me personally, all three have given me a solid product since I’ve been involved in their respective markets. Just to clarify, I was born in NY, so I didn’t choose the Yankees because they were winning, I in fact started following in 1993.
The Yankees are the biggest market with the biggest taxes and the biggest city in the country. They’re going to have the biggest payroll, they’re never going to have top 10 draft picks and they’re never going to win if all they do is spend on FA. They proved that from 2004-2008.
MLB teams cannot flap a franchise tag, there is no salary cap, there is no salary floor, and yet MLB continues to have the most diverse winners of any major team, except maybe the NFL, which is pretty even. I’ll take a goliath who keeps the game interesting, produces nothing but love and hate and keeps the sport relevant, and there’s nothing you can point to that will change that.
The Yankees aren’t breaking any rules and while you may imply their business strategy is in poor taste, it’s a successful one and I think you and every other fan who has to whine because your team isn’t as competitive, is just as in poor taste.
Same for me, Microsoft computer, Verizon phone, Yankee fan since 93 lol
Also I wouldn’t call the NFL very even but it’s the closest to MLB than the NHL and NBA (lulz) are. If the Patriots had beaten the Giants in Super Bowl 42, then the Patriots and Steelers would have won 6 of the previous 8 Super Bowls prior to the Saints winning last year. No team has won 2 straight WS since 1999-2000, although currently the NHL has the longest streak going.
I think that you might understand where I am coming from. The team that I root for has been more successful in recent years than the Yankees. I’m not whining that my team can’t compete. I’m saying that I don’t think that it is in “Baseball’s” best interest that the playing field isn’t more level. If anything that would work against the Red Sox as we are ampngst the few teams that can pay outrageous amounts for players that don’t pan out without it crippling our team.
Personally I would rather have 20 competitive teams and 10 other semi competitive teams without one (or 2 or 3) behemoth team(s) that dominates strictly because they have vastly more resources than anyone else strictly because of their location. I wish MLB would add a Brooklyn team as their next franchise add just to siphon off some Yankees $$ and level the playing field. Unfortunately that will never happen. There is a reason that the NFL is the most popular sport now. Just about all of the teams are in the playoff equation within a 5 year span. Fans of the NFL can cheer for a certain player because they know that there is always the franchise tag and the Patriots/Steelers or whoever can’t poach any player they want just because they have more resources.
I guess I really shouldn’t care if the Yankees want to spend another 2 billion dollars before they win another world series but I, personally, find it distasteful that teams like the Pirates, Oakland, KC, etc. have a MUCH smaller chance of winning the WS than teams that have gigantic payrolls.
What I find in the poorest taste are the Yankees fans that come on here and spout “we win because we grow our own talent”. The Yankees win because they have huge resources. Even then, they don’t win nearly as much as they should. Cashman is a joke. If you can’t win the WS more than once every BILLION or two dollars you really shouldn’t be running an MLB franchise.
flickadave, I believe in many recent years, they’ve announced that well over half and possibly a good 20, of the teams in the league (although some of this is due to poor divisions) are in a playoff hunt during mid to late August.
And not once did I say “we win because we grow our own talent”, I think that’s just you putting words in our mouths.
Sorry for the arguments, but I think it’s time that all the bitching of the other teams stop. Yankee fans complain about the Red Sox and their fans, Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees and their fans. But teams have good and bad fans, both teams make good and bad decisions, both have high payrolls, both get free agents, both have talented homegrown players.
The Pirates and Royals are POORLY run organizations. The A’s develop talent and then trade it away.
Remember, Padres were 1-2 games away from the playoffs and have the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball. The Rangers defeated the Yankees in the ALCS and have a payroll 3x less. The Rays won the AL East despite having a payroll over 2x less than the Red Sox and almost 3x less than the Yankees.
Which of those teams won the WS?
And which of the teams I listed won the SB in recent years? The answer, 0.
Baseball has had 9 different WS champions the last 10 years. That is a lot if you ask me.
NBA- 5
NFL- 6
NHL- 6
You act as if the same teams win in baseball, what more has to prove to you that it is 100% false?
I am unconvinced because the same teams DO win every year. Do the same teams win the WS every year? No. Are mostly the same few involved every year? Yes. Doesn’t it strike you as pretty coincidental that the Yankees have won as many WS as the Expos/Nats, Mariners, Rangers, Rays, Brewers, Astros, Rockies, Angels, DBacks, Padres, Royals, Jays, Marlins, Mets, Indians, White Sox, Twins, Phillies, Orioles, and Pirates PUT TOGETHER? Thats TWENTY teams put together.
There is a difference between winning and making the playoffs. On the bright side, not sure if you agree or disagree, but I agree, baseball is possibly going to expand playoff teams.
And half of those teams you listed have been in the league 40 years or less. And at least every team in baseball now has at least won a playoff series, and every team but 2 in baseball has been to the World Series.
And here’s an interesting note. Those 2 teams are the Nationals and Mariners. Why is it interesting? Because you keep bringing up payroll info. And here’s what’s interesting, the Mariners are 1 of 3 teams in baseball owned by a company, one of the richest companies there are, Nintendo. And the Expos/Nationals owner is the richest owner in baseball amongst teams owned by an invidual owner.
I do expect good things in the future from the Nationals, it just sucks for them they have the PHillies and Braves in the same division.
I guess more baseball is always a good thing but when it get like hockey where almost everyone seems to make the playoffs it gets a little ridiculous.
As for the M’s and Nat’s making the playoffs… Nintendo didn’t get to be profitable by blowing money on lost causes and Lerner has to overcome the fact that winners usually don’t want to play on losing teams but with a few more good drafts, Strasburg healing well, and a little luck hopefully they will become competitive. It’s a shame that the O’s were able to force the Nat’s into giving them a portion of their network otherwise the Nats would really be a team to be reckoned with.
I have a Microsoft computer and a Verizon phone. I’m also a Yankees fan. So yes, I root for all three because for me personally, all three have given me a solid product since I’ve been involved in their respective markets. Just to clarify, I was born in NY, so I didn’t choose the Yankees because they were winning, I in fact started following in 1993.
The Yankees are the biggest market with the biggest taxes and the biggest city in the country. They’re going to have the biggest payroll, they’re never going to have top 10 draft picks and they’re never going to win if all they do is spend on FA. They proved that from 2004-2008.
MLB teams cannot flap a franchise tag, there is no salary cap, there is no salary floor, and yet MLB continues to have the most diverse winners of any major team, except maybe the NFL, which is pretty even. I’ll take a goliath who keeps the game interesting, produces nothing but love and hate and keeps the sport relevant, and there’s nothing you can point to that will change that.
The Yankees aren’t breaking any rules and while you may imply their business strategy is in poor taste, it’s a successful one and I think you and every other fan who has to whine because your team isn’t as competitive, is just as in poor taste.
I do, since my computer is by Microsoft and my wireless provider is Verizon.
If dollars spent = winning a champioship then the Yanks would’ve won 75 WS titels and not 27. Please stop this non-sense about “unfair”. Unfair is the fact that the Yanks spend about $75-$100 mil a year in luxury tax and revenue sharing, rarely get to draft top 10 draft talents and then have to contend with the teams that feed off the very teet that the Yanks are providing. Then we have to sit back and listen to fans of the Marlins and Rays complain about who they can and can’t afford despite the fact that we are almost single handedly paying your payroll and keeping you afloat because your own fans don’t support you. The Marlins and Rays aren’t having trouble keeping their players because of the Yanks they are having trouble keeping their players because they can’t draw more than 1.5 mil even when the team is a playoff contender.
I would just rather you say “Thank you” to the bigger market teams and keep it going. In the words of Brick Top from the movie Snatch “if I throw a dog a bone, I don’t want to know if it tastes good or not”.
And for all the ppl constantly comparing the NFL to MLB, many, MANY things would have to also change if we had a salary cap including saying bye bye to 3 or 4 franchizes that are struggling to be viable teams due to poor attendance despite a good product.
Like I have said before, thank God for Cashman. With the way Bob Watson had things going the Yankees might have won every WS since 1998 if he was still running things.
You know what is unfair? That some franchises can’t fill more than 1.5 million seats a year because their fans know that their teams is behind even before the season starts and that every time they get a great player to cheer, the Yankees just buy him. Contract the Yankees and other teams would flourish.
Contract the Yankees and baseball will suffer. The Rays and Marlins have had years where they were FAR SUPERIOR to the Yankees and fans still didn’t come out. It’s absolutely insane to blame the Yanks for other teams poor attendance. If anything the Rays should THANK the Yanks for visiting because those crowds, a large amount of them transplanted NY’ers, gave the Rays some of their best draws. I can almost guarentee you that for many teams a NY road game is probably one of their best draws of the year and having lived in Cleveland,OH for the past ten years I can attest to that.
For the record, the Yanks probably won’t sign Crawford but let’s pretend they did. The Rays fans have had at least 6 years to appreciate Crawford. What was their excuse for poor attendance when they’ve had the likes of Crawford, Longo, Pena, Garza and 2 post-season runs in the last few years.
Fantastic.
What was the Yankee’s “homegrown” payroll compared to their “imported” payroll? Take your time, I’ll wait…
I’d actually like to know the answer to that
Arod, CC, Tex, and Burnett come to over $100m. If you add Swisher, Granderson, and all the rest I’m betting it comes to roughly 2/3 of the Yanks overall payroll.
No idea, but why does it matter? Is signing your own superstars a bad thing now?
I see…the “homegrown argument” was disproven, so now its “homegrown payroll”.
Not losing your own superstars because you can outbid any other team while poaching other teams superstars because, well, you can still outbid them, doesn’t really say much about how well you grow talent. All it says is that you still win bidding wars against every other team and that you can amass enough talent that, everything being equal, players would rather play for your team because they will have a better chance of winning because your team will field a team of all-stars every year.
Whether or not it says anything about growing talent is moot. The original argument I was responding to said the Yankees don’t have homegrown players, I provided the facts showing they do.
And if Jeter, Mo, Posada, Pettite and Cano don’t say anything about how well they grow talent, I would love to know what would. Thats not even mentioning the young guys that can still become good/great.
Whether or not it says anything about growing talent is moot. The original argument I was responding to said the Yankees don’t have homegrown players, I provided the facts showing they do.
And if Jeter, Mo, Posada, Pettite and Cano don’t say anything about how well they grow talent, I would love to know what would. Thats not even mentioning the young guys that can still become good/great.
Not losing your own superstars because you can outbid any other team while poaching other teams superstars because, well, you can still outbid them, doesn’t really say much about how well you grow talent. All it says is that you still win bidding wars against every other team and that you can amass enough talent that, everything being equal, players would rather play for your team because they will have a better chance of winning because your team will field a team of all-stars every year.
Left out 2- Nick Johnson and Marcus Thames. That’s 13.
In mid 2009, the Rays were tied for the 2nd WORST, (Worst, not BEST) percentage of home grown players on its 25 man roster. 28% of the Rays roster was homegrownWould you like to take a guess on what team had the Best or Highest percentage of homegrown players on its roster? (56%)I’ll give you a hint, they play in the AL East, and it’s not the Red Sox, Orioles, Blue Jays, and Rays.
I should say best and worst in the AL, not all of MLB.
Give me a hint. Does that team usually spend a one or two billion dollars in between World Championships despite having a payroll that is ridiculously HUGE?
That’s not what we were arguing. What you said is, the Yankees buy every free agent available. And it’s already proven money doesn’t buy championships, otherwise the Yankees would win every year and they don’t.
Also, the Yankees are not the only team to have spent over $1 billion the past 10 years.
The Dodgers, Cubs, Phillies, Mets, Red Sox and Angels all themselves have spent over $1 billion the past 10 years. And half of those teams have nothing to show for it.
I could even be missing a team or 2 but I’d have to re-check.
For the most part all of the teams you listed have at least been in the hunt with half of the teams that you listed having won at least one WS recently. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Now, how many WS have the Pirates, Royals, A’s, Nationals/Expos, and Padre’s been close to lately?
Your point was “The Yankees always win and low payroll teams never do”
Padres haven’t been close to a WS but were this close t making the playoffs. The A’s made the playoffs 3 straight years I believe from 01 to 03 until the Angels started running away. The Pirates have an owner who does not care about the franchise or the fans. Ever read the article on what the Pirates mascot said on Facebook?
No, my point was that the Yankees have a HUGE advantage because they can sign the best FA every year and acquire good high cost players from teams that are dumping payroll for a minimal cost. That gives them a HUGE advantage over the teams that can’t afford to keep their players when they become FAs or when they aren’t able to be immediately competitive.
In the last 2 seasons, the Yankees have (yet) to acquire 1 big free agent. And 2 teams who weren’t extremely high in payroll happened to give their franchise players contracts of up to $157 million and $189 million.
The Yankees break no rules in signing free agents, if you want to complain talk to the commish and players union. Again, stop acting as if the Red Sox or other teams are incapable of signing FA’s.
I never said the Yankees broke any rules in signing FA. I never said no one else including the Red Sox were incapable of signing free agents. Just stop pretending that the other teams in MLB play on a level financial playing field with the Yankees. They don’t. To pretend otherwise is foolish.
Now you’re saying that I said that baseball is a level financial playing field. I said no such thing. I said the same teams do not always win.
No they don’t. The ones with the most money usually beat the ones with less money tho. I wonder who the odds on favorite is to win the 2011 WS….
Well lets wait till the offseason to end and spring training to start before we go and pick that.
YOu forget that they had the luxury of finishing last for several years inorder to get those high picks.
Funny thing here is Moonraker is the closest on what Theo probably will offer, they made reference to the Lackey contract, so i wouldnt rule out Theo saying 6 years and in the 85-90 million range.
I think they only mentioned the Lackey contract because that’s the top contract that the Theo/Henry management has every signed, and it’s about to get smoked by this contract.
doubt it seriously do, he wont offer anywhere in the 100 million range, Theo’s problem is lately he is thinking too far into the future, instead of worrying about this year and maybe next he is worried 5 years from now and it makes the team suck this year and next as he watches player he could of had play and the sun still rises in the morning.
To me their a 3 key every day players left on the board for the Sox, Werth, Beltre,and Crawford. They need to get one of them.
You have convinced me that Beltre is out for the Sox. It’s down to Crawford and Werth.
Your alternate personality convinced you?
But how will those small market Sox ever compete with the big bad Yankees
The same way those smaller market Rangers did.
It’s all about pitching! If the Sox have 5 starters pitching to their potential next year they will be tough to beat, but that is a big IF. Of course is Burnett pitches well then the Yanks win by 5 games.
Although I think Pitching is extremely important, if you cant hit you still cant win, just ask the Padres. And for the Sox fans that say they dont want AGon. You guys are crazy, move him out of Petco and he is a .350/50/125 player. Those are Pujols numbers, and fenway would only help. Petco was designed to be Barry Bonds Proof, Left handed hitters die in petco. And one last comment about Agon. Listen to just one interview with this guy, He is one of those players, that does the right thing for his team, community, and his family. He is guy worth paying 20 mill a year. If we have any other GM besides J.Hoyer, this deal is already done for the soxs, the problem i think is that Jed knows the team very well, and he isnt backing down from who he wants in return. (Kelly for sure ive heard)
AGon really impressed me last spring when everyone was asking him about being traded and he predicted that he wouldn’t be because the Padre’s would be playing for a playoff spot.
Although I think Pitching is extremely important, if you cant hit you still cant win, just ask the Padres. And for the Sox fans that say they dont want AGon. You guys are crazy, move him out of Petco and he is a .350/50/125 player. Those are Pujols numbers, and fenway would only help. Petco was designed to be Barry Bonds Proof, Left handed hitters die in petco. And one last comment about Agon. Listen to just one interview with this guy, He is one of those players, that does the right thing for his team, community, and his family. He is guy worth paying 20 mill a year. If we have any other GM besides J.Hoyer, this deal is already done for the soxs, the problem i think is that Jed knows the team very well, and he isnt backing down from who he wants in return. (Kelly for sure ive heard)
Save your money and go with the up and coming players. They saved your behinds last year.Also, get rid of some of the stikeout leaders. drew, ortris, etc.
What has Werth done to merit these kind of numbers? He is a better than average player, but please, 15 mil/yr for 6 years? Someone may pay that to get him from other teams but they will regret it. Kudos to his agent.
Crawford doesn’t have as much power but does everything else as good or better than Werth. He wants to hit further down in the lineup. He has a quality bat and gives some speed further down the lineup. He’s a good fit for the Sox. I don’t know about 8 years. The Yankees might step in and give him 8 years.
After Cliff Lee resigns with Texas, the Yankees go on a warpath and sign both Werth and Crawford. Angry Sons of Steinbrenners out of control! Grr! #hilariousandprobablytrue
justin bieber’s a red sox fan?
Regardless of what Crawford’s agent wants for Carl, the forces of the market will determine his years and annual salary, henceforth. All the Sox have to do is outbid the Angels, who are also after Beltre, who wants, like, 5 years @ $80M…. IMHO, Werth isn’t “worth” what he is asking for in terms of dollars and years… he is too old, and, besides, he plays RF, where the Sox already have Drew (@$14M) for 2011 and Kalish. The team needs a LF’er not another RF’er in his 30’s….who plays in the NL…. And, I wonder whose spot on the roster Lee will take, if they sign him, Beltre’s, if he goes? Ideally, then Sox re-sign Beltre, sign Crawford, and bring in one solid middle inning relief guy. Otherwise, they play a pat hand…. with a team that should have won 95/96 games in 2010…. and can win 100 games, as is, in 2011, if everyone stays healthy. I must admit, Crawford would make a nice addition to the lineup, with Ellsbury leading off, and he batting in the #2 or #3 hole, in front of Youk and Ortiz… Lots of power, hit ability and speed in that lineup…
good non biased evaluation lots of good points you have made sir good job werth seems more of an NL guy to me myself
Upon noting your “handle” ….Crawford’s leaving Tampa most conger up a few pangs of anger. My sincere sympathies are extended. I suspect there is more than an adequate replacement waiting in the wings to play LF for the Rays in 2011?
I’m in favor of the Sox starting an outfield of Kalish Ellsbury and Drew with a very capable 4th OF in Cameron. A RHH 5th OF/Utility type may be warranted but I don’t think there is a great need to overpay for Crawford or Werth
Kalish is projected as Drews replacement at the seasons end. If we sign an OF and take care of one need, we add a bat and a solid defensive outfielder. Crawford would be a safe bet considering he’s had great success in the AL East for many years and he is without question a game changer at the plate and in the field.
Don’t get me wrong Crawford is a great player but there is no reason Kalish can’t be both Drew’s replacement and get significant time this year.
If the Red Sox went that route, they could make a serious run at Cliff Lee. If they got him, awesome. If not, at least it would potentially drive his price thru the stratosphere (more than it already will be)
I don’t see Kalish as a difference maker for the Sox.
Any reason for this or just a gut feeling?
Kalish is projected as Drews replacement at the seasons end. If we sign an OF and take care of one need, we add a bat and a solid defensive outfielder. Crawford would be a safe bet considering he’s had great success in the AL East for many years and he is without question a game changer at the plate and in the field.
I don’t think they are paying Cameron 7.5 mil to be a bench player. Kalish I don’t see starting next year regardless if Ellsbury is traded or not, because if they trade Ellsbury chances are they would have signed Werth or Crawford.
It’s likely that at least one of the outfielders misses some time at some point and Cameron would likely play quite a bit anyways since he would be the only right handed hitter of the 4. Also, the Red Sox were willing to cut their losses on Lugo and completely release him at a similar cost so I don’t see why Cameron can’t be a bench player at a high cost. I don’t think this scenario is likely but it’s still what I’m in favor of.
I have a plan for the Red Sox, just waiting for Theo to call me. He may have lost my number.
In addition to adding to the bullpen, he needs to sign Crawford and Paul Konerko.
Crawford may be a little overkill in Fenway’s LF, but perhaps it will take less of a toll on him physically over a 7-8 year contract. A Crawford, Ellsbury, Drew OF would be almost airtight. Then slot Kalish into RF after next year.
Konerko has already stated contract length is not that important. So, at 34, perhaps he would be amenable to a 3 year, or 2 + option contract. Youkilis can shift to 3rd for 2 years. Konerko plays 1st for one year, then shifts to DH after Papi’s contract is up. That opens up 1st base for Gonzo/Fielder/Pujols after 2011. When Konerko’s contract is up, Youkilis can move to DH at age 33-34. Search Konerko on MLB.com and look at his hit chart to see why I want him. He plasters everything to LF.
Ellsbury L CF
Pedroia R 2nd
Crawford L LF
Youkilis R 3rd
Ortiz L DH
Konerko R 1st
Drew S RF
Lowrie S SS
Salty S C
Doing this fills LF and the corner IF positions and allows you the flexibility to add a big 1st baseman in 2012.
The only other position I would consider tampering with is catcher. I love Varitek, but I would see what it would take to get Kurt Suzuki from Oakland. While not a prolific hitter, he has the same kind of hitting chart as Konerko. Hits a ton to LF. Considering we already have the Pitching Coach from the team that had the AL’s best ERA, why not add the catcher from that team.
Doing this saves you most of your big trade chips in case you need to upgrade at a position at the deadline or next offseason.
probably the most reasonable and rational post by a red sox fan I’ve read on this site. good work. post more often
Thanks. I mean, no guarantying you’ll get one of the big FA 1st basemen, but at least you’d have the flexibility at the position if you can. You’ll still have Youkilis to slot in there if you can’t, but would leave a tougher task of finding a 3rd baseman.
I have trouble envisioning the Sox having two $20 million guys on the team (Crawford, Gonzalez), but with Drew and Papi coming off the books after ’11, you’d have reasonable contracts at every other position on the field except for those in the rotation.
Konerko just make so much sense to me. He’s from Providence, RI, hits the ball to left, doesn’t strike out a lot, provides serviceable 1st base defense, doesn’t require a long term contract.
Oh well, just my 2 cents. will be fun watching how it plays out.
really good post, I didnt even think about konerko going to the sox. That plan does make sense though, I wonder if the sox could pull it off.
Would seem to fill 1st base nicely for this year, then DH nicely for 1-2 years after that. Konerko is from Providence, RI, but I guess he now makes his winter home in AZ. Wonder what would appeal to him more.
Someone else mentioned D. Lee. He would probably fit nicely as well. Just think that someone that could serve as a one year “bridge” at 1st, then slide to DH would be perfect.
Well said. The only thing is that if you tailor the team around getting players to try and hit it over the monster it can come back to bite ya in the butt. (also drew bats lefty.)
Yep, thanks, good catch on Drew being a lefty, fortunately it wouldn’t affect the alternating Lefty/Righty lineup.
One thing I wish I was more clear on, is how signing Konerko and Crawford affects our draft picks. We get picks for Beltre and Martinez, but lose them for signing Crawford (A) and Konerko (A). What would we net in picks after that? Would we still get Detroit’s #19 pick?
We would still get detriots pick depending if they sign crawford or werth, but we would give up our own first round picks to whoever.
Sometimes, when a deal makes so much sense and gives you a solid 5 years, you dont worry too much about one or two draft picks.
Best proposal I have seen here. If Konerko can’t be gotten, Lee is an alternative.
I would consider swapping Crawford and Drew in the outfield, just because RF has so much more ground to cover and Drew is getting older. On the other hand, that’s changing two fielders’ positions, so maybe not. In either case, it’s an outstanding outfield.
In the lineup, I’d probably flip Lowrie and Salty, just to keep the base paths from getting clogged up ahead of the speedsters. This lineup will drive pitchers (and catchers) insane. Playing Detroit would be especially fun.
switching drew now wouldn’t be the best of moves. He’s comfortable and knows how to play all the curves and walls, plus he is mostly gone after this year with kalish taking over for him there.
Yeah, I basically agree. It just pains me to waste Crawford’s speed in left. OTOH, he’ll look pretty fine out there when they travel to the Bronx.
Yep, definitely switch Salty and Lowrie. Didn’t think of the speed that would be behind him at the top of the order.
Definitely agree with everyone else, good post. The only thing I have to say is Suzuki was just signed to an extension so I don’t know how likely it is that they would entertain trade proposals. I could be wrong though, I’m sure stranger things have happened.
Theo- Call Royal, then return my damn text messages!
The only thing I disagree with is Ellsbury in CF. 1- They signed Cameron ($7.5 million) for a reason, for his defense in CF. Ellsbury according to UZR is bad in CF. 2- If they sign Crawford, they definitily will trade Ellsbury then, unless they want 2 OFers, 1 being Kalish, on thier bench. Aside from that, I do agree with you though.
Regardless of what they do with their other outfielders Kalish wont be riding the bench next year. He’ll likely be a starter in AAA, it would be completely foolish to have arguably your top prospect sitting on the bench in the majors and not getting regular playing time in AAA.
That’s definitely a possibility too.
My guess would be that if they sign one of Werth or Crawford the most likely scenario in the outfield next year is Werth/Crawford, Ellsbury, Drew with Cameron being an expensive 4th outfielder/platoon with Drew/Ellsbury. While it is entirely possible that they would start shopping Ells more aggressively I think he is more likely to move at the deadline or next offseason unless they manage to pull off a trade for one of the bigger names being rumored to be available (A-Gonz, Fielder, Upton, Rasmus etc.) and he happens to be part of that deal.
Regardless of what they do with their other outfielders Kalish wont be riding the bench next year. He’ll likely be a starter in AAA, it would be completely foolish to have arguably your top prospect sitting on the bench in the majors and not getting regular playing time in AAA.
This is one of the best posts I’ve seen in a while. I’m a huge Sox fan but I’ll be the first to admit, some of the ideas that fans come up with for trades/FA’s are absolutely ridiculous. It’s nice to actually see someone on here with some sense of what’s going on when it comes to the Sox. It makes a ton of sense without any “dream world” transactions.
I have a plan for the Red Sox, just waiting for Theo to call me. He may have lost my number.
In addition to adding to the bullpen, he needs to sign Crawford and Paul Konerko.
Crawford may be a little overkill in Fenway’s LF, but perhaps it will take less of a toll on him physically over a 7-8 year contract. A Crawford, Ellsbury, Drew OF would be almost airtight. Then slot Kalish into RF after next year.
Konerko has already stated contract length is not that important. So, at 34, perhaps he would be amenable to a 3 year, or 2 + option contract. Youkilis can shift to 3rd for 2 years. Konerko plays 1st for one year, then shifts to DH after Papi’s contract is up. That opens up 1st base for Gonzo/Fielder/Pujols after 2011. When Konerko’s contract is up, Youkilis can move to DH at age 33-34. Search Konerko on MLB.com and look at his hit chart to see why I want him. He plasters everything to LF.
Ellsbury L CF
Pedroia R 2nd
Crawford L LF
Youkilis R 3rd
Ortiz L DH
Konerko R 1st
Drew S RF
Lowrie S SS
Salty S C
Doing this fills LF and the corner IF positions and allows you the flexibility to add a big 1st baseman in 2012.
The only other position I would consider tampering with is catcher. I love Varitek, but I would see what it would take to get Kurt Suzuki from Oakland. While not a prolific hitter, he has the same kind of hitting chart as Konerko. Hits a ton to LF. Considering we already have the Pitching Coach from the team that had the AL’s best ERA, why not add the catcher from that team.
Doing this saves you most of your big trade chips in case you need to upgrade at a position at the deadline or next offseason.
8 years for Crawford and 6 for Werth? Pass. Guys who get 6+ years are premiere elite bats. Neither Crawford nor Werth are that. They are good. But still not upper tier. Crawford doesn’t want to lead off, and he is not the type of middle order bat the Red Sox need. Werth fits the profile of the kind of player the Red Sox need. NWIH he get’s 6 years out of Boston though.
And for All the whiny ass’s out there who get all butt hurt every time someone mentions Agon going to the Red Sox, wake up and join reality. The Red Sox probably won’t trade for him. They can simply throw money at him next off season. And if the Yankees are not in on him, who exactly is going to out spend them for Agon’s services? All the signs are right there for everyone to see. If your ignoring it that’s a “U” problem. Don’t hate on the rest of us for being able to have enough vision to see past 1 season and look out the plan for the next 5+ years or so.
“And if the Yankees are not in on him, who exactly is going to out spend them for Agon’s services”Orioles, Washington, Toronto, Texas, Oakland, Dodgers… Far from a 1 team race for an elite 1st baseman
None of those teams will outbid the Sox for Adrian Gonzalez. Theo values him incredibly high, the Sox will have Drew, Ortiz, Papelbon, Scutaro, and Cameron coming off the books, which equates to over $50mm in freed up money. Other teams will be in on him, but nobody will outbid the Red Sox, unless the Sox go after Pujols
Again, you don’t know that for sure. . . Did you predict that the Reds were going to outbid everyone for Chapman? … Theo values AG a lot.. you know who else does? ANY GM with half a brain would want this guy on his team… Nats have been increasingly more aggressive in spending, they are going to bud soon, Orioles were in on the Tex sweepstakes and offered him a boatload.. Jays, A’s, Dodgers all have the resources to get it done as well..
Red Sox may be front liners, but in no way are they a guarantee. .. Also the most important thing is where AG wants to play and move his family.
The Sox are not a lock to sign him, I will agree with you there. I’m saying that the only way that Gonzalez does not sign with the Sox is if he just flat out doesn’t want to play in Boston. Theo won’t let another team outbid him in years or dollars for Adrian Gonzalez, even if it means he has to overspend. That’s the only thing I’m trying to say.
To me I don’t see it that way.. I think that desperation breads poor decisions, and because Theo already has a pretty good team and resources, he is not going to let someone drive up the price to where he feels uncomfortable…
Where as teams like the Orioles and Nats, WILL be desperate and that might lead to sillyness.
I believe you underestimate Theo’s ability to bid against himself when it comes to a player that he has fallen in love with. Theo overpaid for both JD Drew and Julio Lugo because he just HAD to have them.
If JD Drew puts up a season similar to ’08 or 09 he will have put up enough WAR to justify his contract. He isn’t overpaid, he’s just under appreciated.
I guess it depends on how you calculate a player’s worth. In my world, when you offer considerably more than anyone else for a player than anyone else, you could have paid less and still gotten that player. This is going to sound really convoluted but just because he might have been worth what the Sox paid him doesn’t mean he isn’t overpaid.
Adrian Gonzalez is not that good, too much hype!
you know nothing about baseball and should be banned from watching, reading and talking about baseball.
If Ike Davis doesn’t take a big step forward this season you can add the Mets to that list who will have boatloads of money coming off the payroll after next year in Beltran, Castillo, Reyes, Oliver Perez. The Mets are going to spend some coin after this upcoming season. Bank on it.
Yup forgot about the Mets as well, that would be another big competitor for his services. and they aren’t shy about tossing around years and dollars
The Mets have spent all their money on management. These guys are going to show you how to build a team without spending alot of money. The only problem with this theory is it doesn’t work.
That’s simply not true, the Rays won the AL East (ahead of teams like the Red Sox and Yankees) using that exact theory. That’s not to say that it works for the Mets (not a lot does lately) but you can’t say that that theory doesn’t work.
8 years for Crawford and 6 for Werth? Pass. Guys who get 6+ years are premiere elite bats. Neither Crawford nor Werth are that. They are good. But still not upper tier. Crawford doesn’t want to lead off, and he is not the type of middle order bat the Red Sox need. Werth fits the profile of the kind of player the Red Sox need. NWIH he get’s 6 years out of Boston though.
And for All the whiny ass’s out there who get all butt hurt every time someone mentions Agon going to the Red Sox, wake up and join reality. The Red Sox probably won’t trade for him. They can simply throw money at him next off season. And if the Yankees are not in on him, who exactly is going to out spend them for Agon’s services? All the signs are right there for everyone to see. If your ignoring it that’s a “U” problem. Don’t hate on the rest of us for being able to have enough vision to see past 1 season and look out the plan for the next 5+ years or so.
I’d say 6/120 would get it done. After the 6 he could go year to year or sign one more 2-4 year deal, depending on how the 6 go. I don’t think he could ask for more than $20 MM per season over 6 years. His power numbers would go up too playing at Fenway half the year. He’d have to cover less ground field wise in left so that should help him stay healthier over time as well. Just seems like a no brainer and I truly hope the Sox don’t choose Werth over a few more years built into a contract and maybe $5 MM a year, because Crawford is ‘werth’ every penny.
I’d say 6/120 would get it done. After the 6 he could go year to year or sign one more 2-4 year deal, depending on how the 6 go. I don’t think he could ask for more than $20 MM per season over 6 years. His power numbers would go up too playing at Fenway half the year. He’d have to cover less ground field wise in left so that should help him stay healthier over time as well. Just seems like a no brainer and I truly hope the Sox don’t choose Werth over a few more years built into a contract and maybe $5 MM a year, because Crawford is ‘werth’ every penny.
Oh and BTW, thanks Michael Silverman for that ground breaking journalism. Way to really blow the lid on a story no one had considered.
Seriously how much do these guys get paid? All they do is rehash old stories with a few new lines and change the date on the column. Every 2nd grader in NE knows the Red Sox need a solid bat in the OF.
A big part of Crawford’s game is his speed. Does he expect to keep that over the next 8 years?
power fades faster then speed.
Or he could be like Damon and become more of a ‘line drive hitter with power’ after he stops swiping 40 bags a year lol.
Or he could be like Damon and become more of a ‘line drive hitter with power’ after he stops swiping 40 bags a year lol.
You’re right, Cameron is still pretty quick in his upper 30’s. I’d go 6 yrs for Crawford.
I’m willing to be there are currently more 34+ players w/ 30 hrs than 30 SB.
Thats relative.. How many players are under 30 that have 30 HRs compared to 30 SB??
You also can’t compare Crawfords speed, to a casual 30 base stealer.. of course they will regress as they were never that fast in the first place. . .
I actually checked, not to refute your statement but out of curiousity…
Last year 2 players 34 years old or older hit 30+ HR- Ortiz and Konerko
2 players 34 or older stole 30+ bases, Ichiro and Podsenik ( Juan Pierre is 33)
A-Rod hit 30
WOW… arods 35? My mistake. I didnt realize how old he was lol
A big part of Crawford’s game is his speed. Does he expect to keep that over the next 8 years?
Crawford is a great talent no doubt..but he is no where near worth 20mil per and 8 years..hes not Manny back in the day..Thats who you pay that kind of $$ to not crawford..Werth is the same..NOT worth the $$$…
Perhaps the report about the Sox preparing to offer Crawford 100/5yrs is true.
Where did you hear that report?
From the same person that Theo Epstein gets his information from..oh wait..
Source tells @SportsCenter5’s @MikeLynch5 #RedSox preparing offer to OF Carl Crawford… team willing to go as high as 5 years, $100 million
From November 24
Perhaps the report about the Sox preparing to offer Crawford 100/5yrs is true.
And in other news…..the sky is blue.
That many years for either of those hitters is insane. I want the Tigers to stay as far away from Werth as possible, and 6 years would just be overkill. Crawford is a great player, but there are very very few teams who can afford to commit 8 seasons and well over 100 million to him.
Sox need to do something, honestly i think their greatest need is bullpen right now, i know they are a dime a dozen but i would like to see Downs in Boston next year. and sure i know this is obvious but AGON really couldnt be a more perfect fit in Boston. he would absolutely rake inside friendly Fenway. and im more than willing to spend top prospects to trade for him. make the deal Theo. and i know AGON is still recovering from injury so any trade would have to be on July 31 depending on how the Padres are doing. but its just a trade that has to happen no matter how you look at it.
I think the Sox should trade for Prince Fielder. With AGon having surgery there is no way he gets traded until the season and I think he would cost more than Fielder in a trade. Trade for Fielder and give him a one year audition in Boston. If he rakes then you can sign him long term and if not make a run a AGon in off-season. Would take one year of Prince Fielder minus a few prospects then a stopgap like Dereek Lee.
Why do teams keep making the same mistake and going long years to guys already in their 30s (werth) or getting close (like crawford) that take them past their mid-30s (in some cases way past)? Didn’t Wells and Soriano teach them anything?
If you can’t get a nice player (like these guys) at a reasonable length (say 3 years), just go ST.
The Red Sox could trade a couple of mid-tier prospects to the Mets for Beltran (taking on maybe 1/2 his salary) and likely get equivilant production in 2011, for 1/2 the $ cost, and no future commitment.
Yes, I realize there is an injury risk (with his knee), but if they need a corner OF, especially LF, that is less running, and I assume he can get some time at DH if Ortiz needs time off.
Beltran is probably not the only option, but he showed in September he still has his bat, and if he is close to normal next season, he will give you more per game than Crawfor or werth at way less cost and no future risk.
save your money to play in the FA market next off seaosn instead.
Werth and Crawford are both too expensive and losing the draft pick for either one hurts in this draft class.
What theo needs to do is sell the house for Adrian and/or Upton. I know everyone is sick of hearing these rumors and it’s been talked about to death, but this is the only way the Sox can form a WS competitor for now and years to come.
First step: Adrian to Boston for Lowrie, Kelly, Reddick, and 2 more A-B prospects.
Next go balls out for Upton: Start with either Bard or Ells, Doubrant, Rizzo, Fuentes, and 2 more A-B prospects. If they turn that down start with Bard and Ells and try again.
With these trades the Red Sox fill up two glaring weaknesses in the field and in the batting order. The Minor League System will be depleted but with 7 1st, supplemental, and 2nd round picks they should be able to restock. Plus with the Rotation and heart of the order (assuming the lock up AGon) signed for the next 4 years it shouldn’t hurt too bad.
CF Ellsbury/Kalish
2B Pedroia
1B AGon
3B Youk
LF Upton
DH Ortiz
SS Scuturo
RF Drew
C Salty
Really? They want him? I thought they thought they were getting that with Mike Cameron.
I think signing Crawford makes it much easier to trade Ellsbury+ for someone named Upton or Gonzalez. Even if a trade doesn’t work out, we could just pay to keep Beltre.
There is a reason why the Sox might pay extra to get Crawford. He gives them the potential to make a big trade to help the future. Not signing Crawford means the Sox will just sign Werth and probably Beltre to 4 year deals. Not great players, but definitely a very steady lineup/team overall.
I don’t see Crawford signing with the Sox, I see the Angels as the front runners for Crawford, Beltre, and Soriano.
Whatever your smoking I want some.
They’ll sign one of the three for sure, but the Angels really don’t spend that much money in free agency. To sign two of them, let alone three. They don’t like competing with and bidding against the Sox, Yankees, Mets, Tigers that way, they prefer to spend their money and the second tier of free agents, extending good players acquired through trades or targeting a player very early in free agency, making a huge take it or leave it offer and hoping they don’t shop it for more. See Gary Matthews Jr (yikes) and Torri Hunter.
I bet the Sox get Crawford. Everyone assumes the angels will get him and rightfully so, Crawford is the kind of player that fits the angels game play. However, Crawford fits the Sox needs too. Vmart is gone, therefore they need a number 3 bat. Which is where Crawford wants to bat. The Sox need left fielder, and I feel Theo liked the speed ells brings to the team, why not add another bat?
Sox sign Crawford 5 yrs 115 mill.
Ellsbury is their LFer unles he’s traded.
So, why can’t Ellsbury play center? And if he plays left, who plays center?
Mike Cameron (if you’re talking about 2011 that is and not 2012 and beyond like someone else was).
Alright… so they rely completely on a 38 year old who played less than 50 games last year while posting his lowest numbers since 1998 (12 years) who is also coming off surgery. To play 150+ games in center field. Great depth!!! I think the Red Sox learned a little lesson last year about these kinda things.
They didn’t give him a 2 year contract for $15 million to be on the bench. Maybe we should wait til opening day and see. Ellsbury is on the trading block anyway so let’s wait and see.
They also didn’t pay Julio Lugo 36 million to sit on the bench, and then to play for another team. But they did. Mistakes happen, if they can get Crawford to play left and Ellsbury to play center, Cameron as a 4th OF makes the team better.
As I said, lets wait and see, Ellsbury can easily get traded.
So, if he’s so easily traded your 2011 Boston Red Sox outfield consists of:
Darnell McDonald LF
Mike Cameron CF
JD Drew RF
I don’t expect him to be traded unless or until they sign Crawford or Werth. Point is, do not expect Mike Cameron to be on the bench next season.
And why should we expect him to be traded if they sign Crawford or Werth? Point is, Theo made a mistake last year by relying on a 37 year old center fielder. If you fix the mistake by signing an all-star outfielder, and then subsequently trade your 2011 starting center fielder (yes, I’m talking about Ellsbury) you make the exact. same. mistake. again. 2 seasons in a row. Who knows? Maybe it works in 2011? Maybe Crawford/Werth, Cameron and Drew all somehow stay healthy, play 150 games each, and the outfield performs well. Then please tell me what our outfield consists of in: 2012? 2013? 2014? Do you just keep re-signing Mike Cameron to play center until he’s 50? Maybe get his wife to play right when JD leaves after this year?
Serious question, did Theo specifically say in 2011 that Ellsbury will be the starting CF? Because if he did then I retract everything I said. If not, then I still think they will start Cameron over Ellsbury in CF. And I expect Nava to be a starter for sure in 2012 when most likely Cameron or Drew, bearing a remarkable year, are gone.
I think it’s more about the contract. Why do you think the Yankees haven’t put AJ Burnett in the bullpen yet. Why do you think Barry Zito was never dumped/traded. Why do you think the Yankees were stuck with a mediocre Giambi at 1B/DH for several years and didn’t bench him.
Did he specifically mention Cameron being the starting CF in 2011? Does Cameron have any sort of advantage over Ellsbury other than the fact that he makes more money? And Nava will be 29 years old in 2012. Let me get this straight. A 29 year old former Indy Leaguer who hasn’t proven to be able to hit in the majors at age 27, who’s ceiling is that of a bench player (if he proves he can be more than a AAAA backup) will suddenly develop mad skills that translate into Major League success. And for the cherry on top of this remarkable fairy tale, Theo Epstein and the FO have been seeing this coming, two year in advance, under your divine guidance. So they trade some trash named “Jacoby” because his UZR in 2009 stunk.
Alright.
Was just asking if he said it on a radio show or something, that is all. And it was a Red Sox fan earlier (forget the name, I think it was sox and then had like 4 or 5 numbers after) even expcted Nava to be a future all star lol
Anyway, it was their plan this year, I have seen or haven’t heard anything of Theo saying he plans to play Ellsbury in CF and bench Cameron. I assume you’re a Red Sox fan and wanted to simply ask if he said something on a radio show.
I never called Jacoby “trash” by the way.
I think you are talking about the conversation about Ryan Kalish, not Daniel Nava. Which, by the way, either one would be foolish to crown an all-star already but at least Kalish has the potential to become an all-star candidate at some point in his career, Nava is a decent player but probably a career 4th outfielder. Some fans tend to get a little excited and confuse potential with accomplishments.
BTW from my recollection the closest Theo, or anyone in the Sox FO, has come to saying Ellsbury will be the CF next year was after they made the announcement that they were moving him to left, they said that they still viewed Ellsbury as the teams center fielder but with the current make up of the team that Cameron in center and Ellsbury in left would be the most efficient team they could put on the field.
My personal opinion though would be that IF the choice comes down to Ellsbury or Cameron on the bench it would be Cameron every time, because while Cameron may be the better center fielder Ellsbury provides more value to the team overall, he may be better suited for left but you wouldn’t take him out of the lineup and replace him with Cameron. Your point about Ells being trade bate if they sign an outfielder is a very valid one though.
LOL my bad, I did mean Kalish. I couldn’t recall the name earlier so I went on their roster page and saw Nava and put him in by mistake lol.I mean that’s easy as a fan to say who you want to play and who you want to bench, and I agree with starting Ellsbury, but from a team/business perspective, it’s a tougher choice when one is making about leage miminum and other is making 7.5 million which is more than chunk change, even for Boston.
I definitely agree but I think playing Ellsbury over Cameron makes too much baseball sense to let 7.5 mil keep them from making that decision. They have shown in the past that they can make tough decisions when they need to: benching Ortiz early last season, benching Crisp for Ellsbury, benching Lugo and finally paying him to play for someone else, paying Lowell to ride the bench, etc…
Again I’m not saying you are wrong, you may well be right, just that it would make more baseball sense to play Ellsbury over Cameron, even if it doesn’t make as much business sense.
The Sox OF next year will most likely look like this….
Crawford or Werth in LF, Ellsbubry in CF, Drew in RF
Cameron will come off the bench to platoon with Drew and to spell Ellsbury/Crawford here or there. He’s a good contingency plan. Who cares if he likes it or not, he’s ancient and going away soon anyway. If the Sox trade Ellsbury, it will be in a package for Gonzo. If that happens, I bet Crawford/Werth in LF, Kalish/Cameron in CF (Theo loves this kid) and Drew in RF. If they get Gonzo, Youk to 3B. The wild card here is Kalish, I think he’s definitely on the team next year, maybe not to start the season but definitely on the team.
The Sox OF next year will most likely look like this….
Crawford or Werth in LF, Ellsbubry in CF, Drew in RF
Cameron will come off the bench to platoon with Drew and to spell Ellsbury/Crawford here or there. He’s a good contingency plan. Who cares if he likes it or not, he’s ancient and going away soon anyway. If the Sox trade Ellsbury, it will be in a package for Gonzo. If that happens, I bet Crawford/Werth in LF, Kalish/Cameron in CF (Theo loves this kid) and Drew in RF. If they get Gonzo, Youk to 3B. The wild card here is Kalish, I think he’s definitely on the team next year, maybe not to start the season but definitely on the team.
Cameron a 15 million dollar 4th outlfielder what a bargain.
Although Ellsbury is on the trading block, I think he is the best outfielder the Sox have at this time, he has alot of potential and is still young. I would like to get rid of Cameron but I think they will just have to bite the bullet on that one.
He played 50 games and most were with a torn abdominal or kidney stone and still put up an OPS .041 less then Ellsbury during his huge 2009 season. The injuries were flukish and he is still a lot better on defense then ellsbury. I’d prefer 150 games of Cameron over Ellsbury.
OPS isn’t a cumulative stat, meaning that the fact that he put up a high OPS in 50 games doesn’t make it impressive, more like irrelevant because it is such a small sample.
I agree with that but a cumulative stat would be even more useless in this situation. My overall point was that Cameron put up similar production to Ellsbury hurt so if he were healthy over the course of a whole season he would be better.
I wasn’t trying to say you should use a cumulative stat simply that 50 games doesn’t make it impressive since it isn’t cumulative.
I agree that he put up decent numbers considering the nature of his injury but my main point is that taking anything from Cameron’s year last year isn’t really fair because it was such a small sample. Over the course of a full season he could very well have ended up with a much lower OPS than he had after 50 games, you really can’t say with such a small sample. He also had the second highest BABIP of his career so he got pretty lucky.
I would also argue that Ellsbury’s value isn’t as much in his OPS as it is in his OBP, Slugging% doesn’t mean as much to an Ellsbury type of player. Don’t get me wrong you always like a higher SLG% but it doesn’t play nearly as much of a role in the style of baseball Ells plays so having a lower SLG% doesn’t hurt his value as much as it would a Drew or Cameron type of player.
Except Cameron’s 38 years old coming off surgery. He’s not going to bounce back to an .800 OPS. He’s not going to play 150 games. And although he might play a decent center field it won’t be anything like his +10 UZR days.
He played 50 games and most were with a torn abdominal or kidney stone and still put up an OPS .041 less then Ellsbury during his huge 2009 season. The injuries were flukish and he is still a lot better on defense then ellsbury. I’d prefer 150 games of Cameron over Ellsbury.
Francona already said Ellsbury will be the CFer as the roster stands today. They said last year when Ellsbury was back for two days, he would the starting CFer for the rest of the season. I don’t know how adding either Crawford or Werth would change that. If anything Cameron is the 4th Ofer and steals some AB’s from Ortiz.
Francona already said Ellsbury will be the CFer as the roster stands today. They said last year when Ellsbury was back for two days, he would the starting CFer for the rest of the season. I don’t know how adding either Crawford or Werth would change that. If anything Cameron is the 4th Ofer and steals some AB’s from Ortiz.
Not at all. Ells is a center fielder. He’s going to be back in CF next season.
Did Theo say this? The reason he got Cameron was for his defense in CF, the same reason they moved Ellsbury to LF because his defense in CF was bad the previous year (according to UZR)
Ellsbury UZR/150 career
LF- 23.2
CF- 0.2
Yeah, in theory it was a good idea. I at first thought it wouldn’t be bad too, Cameron was the older, National League version of Torri Hunter and he looked like he could be one of the few guys who are able to contribute at ages approaching 40. Then 2010 happened. And it didn’t work. Age catches up even with Cameron. Even when he was healthy and able to play. Go look at Cammy’s UZR in 2010. It’s worse than Ellsbury’s. And UZR alone isn’t all that great in measuring defensive contributions anyways. How does Cameron go from -15.0 to +16.6 in one season? Also, Ellsbury’s UZR pre 2009 in center were phenomenal too. Also, the value of having 23.3 UZR in left is not very different from having the league average or slightly better in center. The defensive value of LF as a position itself is lesser to that of CF because it’s easier to play, more players can play LF adequately, and it’s easier to find a replacement player to play above average defense there.
Francona said it.
FYI…..
rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx…
I feel like this needs to be said in light of all the casual trashing of Drew and his contract… Drew has been worth every penny of that contract. For one, the grand slam against the Indians in the 2007 ALCS speaks for itself. As bad as Drew was during the regular season for his first year in Boston, he turned it around starting in October. No Drew, no World Series. And that’s priceless. Then take into account Drew’s heroics in the 2008 ALCS. Even with the loss in game 7, Drew singlehandedly saved the Sox from elimination and took them within a single game of repeating WS appearances. Also, for the duration of that contract he’s been so far one of the best defensive right fielders not just in the AL but in the Majors. He does have his injuries and 2010 was not a good year for him, but the Sox would not have had a chance without him in ’07, ’08 and ’09.American League Outfielders from 2008-2009 by OPS1. Drew (.920)2. Bay (.915)3. Choo (.905)(GIANT CLIFF)4. Markakis (.848)5. Damon (.845)5. Hamilton (.845)When you win 90 games a season, and 5 more wins gets you into the playoffs, the value of those few wins are higher to a competitive team like the Sox who only need a few more to get in to the playoffs than an average or bad team where the wins are not likely to be of much importance. The Sox could overpay Drew because he represented more than just a great all around right fielder with some injury problems. To the Sox, adding Drew to the mix meant possibly the difference between getting into the playoffs and not. And to a team that can afford large contracts, an extra year and a few million do not cripple the club in any way, especially when it means the difference between October baseball and golf. Drew did exactly what he was supposed to: filling a position of organizational need, and being a key piece that put the Sox over the edge to get into the postseason and compete.
Couldn’t agree more! Well said. Two additional thoughts: during one of J.D.’s offensive droughts a few years ago, his son was seriously ill (had to have been a huge distraction); J. D. has been trashed for what some narrow-minded psuedo-fans claim as his indifferent attitude because he doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. What poppycock! He cares. Its just that he has more class than those chest-thumping, finger-pointing, “Yea, ME!” heroes.
Couldn’t agree more! Well said. Two additional thoughts: during one of J.D.’s offensive droughts a few years ago, his son was seriously ill (had to have been a huge distraction); J. D. has been trashed for what some narrow-minded psuedo-fans claim as his indifferent attitude because he doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. What poppycock! He cares. Its just that he has more class than those chest-thumping, finger-pointing, “Yea, ME!” heroes.
Agreed. I actually love Drew. I’d resign him again after 2011 if it weren’t for Kalish. I was at that game in ’07 when the bases were loaded in the first on Cleveland’s ace2 Carmona and I saw Manny and Ortiz strikeout just for Drew to come up and hit a ball to dead center right over the wall. Turned that series around right there. He also had a huge game in the game 5 comeback vs the Rays in ’08. He also had a big homerun vs the Angels in ’09. Guy just seems to come up big all the time.
Now why can’t this great post be applied to the Yanks as well?
It probably could if you were referring to Burnett. Yankees don’t win in 2009 without him. Although its a more extreme example given that he posted the worst ERA by a Yankees starter (given a certain number of GS) in the history of the franchise the following season.
Boston had interest in Andre Ethier last year, or so the rumors went, IF they miss out on Crawford and Werth, does Kalish and Bard for Ethier make sense for Boston. Dre would be a lock for 30+ HRs there and a .900 OPS imo.
And for those very same reasons he’d be a lock to NOT be traded.
The current weakest spot for the Sox is the bullpen. No way they trade their most reliable bullpen arm, one who’s years from arbitration at that, for anyone but Justin Upton or Adrian Gonzalez.
The whole corner infield situation has me really torn at the moment. Wanting Beltre at 3B next season is a no-brainer, but I’m still undecided on the long-term implications a Beltre deal would have for the team as a whole i.e. almost a certainty that we wouldn’t sign an elite 1B FA for 2012. Plus, if Beltre turned down 5 years/64million from the A’s what is he looking for? 5 years/80mil? Seems kind of steep. On the other hand, replacing the lost offense of V-Mart AND Beltre with JUST Werth or Crawford (plus ponying up some bigtime $$ in the process) seems like an iffy plan at best for 2011. I’ve heard some suggest that we could sign Beltre this year and then either trade him or Youk OR make one of them the DH in 2012 in the event that we sign A.Gonz/Pujols. But, neither of those scenarios really seem to make sense for either of those players. Even though Youk would net a BIG return, I’m not sure the Sox would be willing to trade one of their franchise faces like that just in order to make room for a higher-paid but better hitting player at the same position. And I also don’t think Beltre would be willing to sign a new deal if he thought there was a significant chance he could just get traded after only a year..
Beltre seems to be the odd man out. I see the Sox fighting it out for Crawford with the Angels, but in the end I see him going to the Angels. As for Werth, he has it in his genes to be a star player. All in all, the Sox missed the boat when they got rid of Martinez, Beltre, and Bay. All three would have cost less than Werth or Crawford and all three played well for the Sox.
Except not signing Bay proved to be an outstanding decision by Theo…
In hindsight the Lackey signing is killing the sox. They could’ve signed werth and beltre.
I don’t think Crawford is a 20 mill player. Maybe a $15. However I’d take him for 20 mill a year to keep the years down. 6 years 20 mill?
Problem with that is he’s looking for 8 years.
Lackey was not the problem–Beckett and pen management were the problem.
Whether Lackey’s signed for $15 million or $3 million, the Sox were not going to offer Beltre more than they think he’s worth. The Sox aren’t exactly cash strapped.
I don’t really think the sox should sign either of these guys…They should focus on Adrian Beltre and in the outfield have Ellsbury in CF, Kalish/Cameron in left and then Drew in right. The sox did pretty damn good with all of the injuries they had last year and this year Youk and Pedroia will be back so I don’t really see much wrong with this lineup:
1. Scutaro/Lowrie ss
2. Pedroia 2b
3. Beltre 3b
4 Youkilis 1b
5. Ortiz DH
6. Drew RF
7. Ellsbury CF
8. Kalish/Cameron LF
9. Salty C (unfortunately)
No need to go wasting money on overhyped free agents…Theo needs to focus on rebuilding the bullpen (which is what killed us last year) and re-signing Adrian Beltre.
Crawford isn’t overhyped. Check out his numbers they are self explanitory. He’s a game changer at the plate, on the basepaths and in the outfield. I doubt Theo isn’t going to add a big name free agent with all the money they have to spend this offseason. Yes, the bullpen is something that needs fixing but you can just go sign all the guys who had a good year last year because bullpen arms are so up and down every year.
I definitely agree with you about bullpen arms being up and down. Yes, Crawford is an outstanding player and a “game changer” as Tito says, but if his price is too high why not turn to a guy that has already fit in in the clubhouse like Beltre. That is something I feel gets overlooked way too much and as a college baseball player I have experienced that team chemistry is more important than anything in building a successful team. I’m not saying that crawford won’t fit in with the rest of the clubhouse, but the Red Sox know what they have with Adrian Beltre and there won’t need to be any type of adjustment period.
Heck if they sign both of them that would be great! I also would rather they stay away from the 32 year old Werth
I definitely agree with you about bullpen arms being up and down. Yes, Crawford is an outstanding player and a “game changer” as Tito says, but if his price is too high why not turn to a guy that has already fit in in the clubhouse like Beltre. That is something I feel gets overlooked way too much and as a college baseball player I have experienced that team chemistry is more important than anything in building a successful team. I’m not saying that crawford won’t fit in with the rest of the clubhouse, but the Red Sox know what they have with Adrian Beltre and there won’t need to be any type of adjustment period.
Heck if they sign both of them that would be great! I also would rather they stay away from the 32 year old Werth
Two things.
First – if we resign Beltre, we’ll be either amping up for a very expensive 1B/3B/DH trio of Youk/Beltre/A-Gon, or we’ll just be out of the A-Gon race. I think Theo will be much more inclined to trade for 1 year of Gonzalez than to sign Beltre.
Second – If we resign Beltre, we’ll be out of the Crawford race. There is no way possible that the Angels let Theo sign Beltre AND Crawford. No possible way. They won’t be outbid on their top 2 targets.
So it’s basically Beltre and Werth or Crawford and A-Gon. I take Crawford and A-Gon, even if it’s A-Gon in 2012.
I highly doubt they sign two of these guys. And if they are going to get A-Gon they need to fully commit to that plan and do that before anything else. Signing a guy like crawford and then assuming you can just go get A-Gon while depleting your minor league system is just stupid.
Werth (Borass) wants at least 6 years and $120M – for a guy who is 31 and was an AS once! As a Phillies fan, I will be said to see him go, but he is definitely not “werth” that kind of loot! Good luck with him Boston!
I’m with blackcourt. I find it extremely hard to believe the Sox would shell out their second biggest contract ever to Jayson Werth of all people.
Werth (Borass) wants at least 6 years and $120M – for a guy who is 31 and was an AS once! As a Phillies fan, I will be said to see him go, but he is definitely not “werth” that kind of loot! Good luck with him Boston!
SOX get crawford
SOX get crawford
ironic that the team who could never throw Crawford out is the one interested. Every time I picture Crawford in a redsox jersey I get sick.
I kind of feel the same way..just can’t seem to picture him as a Red Sox.
ironic that the team who could never throw Crawford out is the one interested. Every time I picture Crawford in a redsox jersey I get sick.