Astros righty Roy Oswalt indicated yesterday that he would be willing to re-structure his contract to accommodate a trade to the Cardinals, and that his 2012 option worth $16MM would not be a deal-breaker if the team approached him about a deal. The Phillies are still trying to unload Jayson Werth to help facilitate a trade for Oswalt while the Dodgers and Astros have exchanged some names. The Twins, however, are not in on the 32-year-old right-hander.
That's a quick summary of what we learned yesterday, so here is today's batch of Oswalt rumors…
- Philadelphia remains more focused on Oswalt than Haren, tweets Heyman.
- The Phillies could swing a three-way trade involving Jayson Werth in order to land Oswalt, writes Ed Price of Fanhouse. Earlier tonight, we learned that the Phillies could also use Werth to get the prospects needed to land Dan Haren.
- Astros owner Drayton McLane says that there's nothing imminent right now, writes Brian McTaggart of MLB.com.
- In addition to the aforementioned Phillies, the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cardinals will all be watching Oswalt's start tonight, according to the Houston Chronicle's Zachary Levine.
- The Dodgers' chances of landing Astros ace Roy Oswalt do not look good, Rosenthal says in his latest Full Count. In fact, some major league executives think that Houston won't trade Oswalt at all. The fact that the Astros were seeking both major league-ready position players and prospects in a deal with Los Angeles may indicate that they're not all that anxious to move the hurler.
- The Phillies, along with a dozen other clubs, will scout Oswalt tonight as he takes the mound against the Reds, tweets Jim Salisbury of CSN Philadelphia.
- Rosenthal tweets that the Astros asked the Dodgers for both big league-ready position players and prospects in a deal for Oswalt.
- Joe Strauss of The St. Louis Post-Dispatch says that the Astros rejected a proposal from the Cards earlier this week that would have sent Brendan Ryan and one other player to Houston.
- The Yankees may be in on Dan Haren, but they aren't in on Oswalt, according to FoxSports.com's Ken Rosenthal.
Brendan Ryan for Roy Oswalt. That’s a good one. Can we have Chris Carpenter for Tommy Manzella?
Ludicrous proposal even if the other player is Shelby Miller
Well the astros front office is a bunch of clowns. I guess it was worth a shot for the cards to try and pull a fast one on the astros.
Indeed the Ryan offer is laughable. Probably the trio of Tyler Greene, Shelby Miller and another pitcher (Ottavino as a PTBNL?) would be slightly closer to the mark. Might need to include Craig or Jay as well.
That’d be a lot closer but it’s just not worth it to include Shelby.
If I’m the Astros front office, I’m not accepting less than Shelby Miller, Allen Craig, and Niko Vasquez.
Then you’ll keep Oswalt, unless you’re willing to eat a ton of money. Oswalt almost certainly won’t be worth the money left on his contract so giving up anything of value without getting considerable money back would be stupid for any team to do. Unless the Astros’ front office figures that out, Oswalt will continue pitching in Houston.
The point is, we don’t want the Cardinals’ prospects. That only looks like a lot to give up when you have so little in the first place.
It’s inarguable that the Cards have very few real prospects. I don’t think there’s much of a match here, to be honest, particularly since the Cards plan to try and extend Albert Pujols in the offseason. However, Astros’ fans (and probably the front office) are going to have to adjust their expectations unless they plan to eat most of Oswalt’s salary. Without salary going the other way, and I mean more than $4-5 million, they’re going to end up with a package like Brendan Ryan and Jon Jay.
It’s inarguable that the Cards have very few real prospects. I don’t think there’s much of a match here, to be honest, particularly since the Cards plan to try and extend Albert Pujols in the offseason. However, Astros’ fans (and probably the front office) are going to have to adjust their expectations unless they plan to eat most of Oswalt’s salary. Without salary going the other way, and I mean more than $4-5 million, they’re going to end up with a package like Brendan Ryan and Jon Jay.
chucktb is right. Oswalt is not a financial asset. He is basically being paid what he is worth, and that’s assuming he doesn’t decline at all, which he probably will. Look at it this way, imagine what the Cards could buy on the free agent market this winter with $16 million. I bet they could exceed Oswald’s production if they decided to spend that on a free agent or group of free agents. Personally, I’d rather have them go after someone like Westbrook. We just need a league average starter to replace the mess that is Jeff Suppan.
I disagree, but I won’t get into the value calculations and performance projections again. I’ve already hashed it out a dozen times.In any case, if you are the Cardinals, would Jake Westbrook (assuming both him and Oswalt stay healthy) guarantee you a playoff berth and make you the immediate frontrunners to make it to the World Series? Roy Oswalt would.That’s what you’re buying. The Reds are giving you a serious run for your money, and your situation for the postseason is pretty similar to what it was last year. If you want to improve your odds of advancing in the playoffs and make sure you actually get there, you’re going to have to ask yourself what that’s worth to you.
How does Oswalt guarantee anything? He’s a great pitcher, but we already have 3 aces. If anything we desperately need him in the middle infield, not pitching. If I’m the Cards front office and the Astros won’t accept Miller and another average prospect or so I’d just wish them luck working with the Phillies.
You don’t have three aces. You have two aces and a rookie who looks like he might shape up into a number two. But I agree that the Cardinals are not a good fit with the Astros on this trade.
Meh maybe an exaggeration on my part but the guys been studly so far.
The Wild Card may well come out of the NL Central anyway. The Cardinals may not need to win the division.
no one is ever an immediate frontrunner to make the world series. don’t let that fool you.
Playoffs are a crap-shoot.
don’t believe me?
04′ cards..06′ cards..07’rockies..03′ marlins..09′ rockies who came outta nowhere..the brewers run..the 08′ cubs.
a lot of these teams were favored one way or the other just proving how much of a crap shoot things are in their.
I disagree, but I won’t get into the value calculations and performance projections again. I’ve already hashed it out a dozen times.In any case, if you are the Cardinals, would Jake Westbrook (assuming both him and Oswalt stay healthy) guarantee you a playoff berth and make you the immediate frontrunners to make it to the World Series? Roy Oswalt would.That’s what you’re buying. The Reds are giving you a serious run for your money, and your situation for the postseason is pretty similar to what it was last year. If you want to improve your odds of advancing in the playoffs and make sure you actually get there, you’re going to have to ask yourself what that’s worth to you.
chucktb is right. Oswalt is not a financial asset. He is basically being paid what he is worth, and that’s assuming he doesn’t decline at all, which he probably will. Look at it this way, imagine what the Cards could buy on the free agent market this winter with $16 million. I bet they could exceed Oswald’s production if they decided to spend that on a free agent or group of free agents. Personally, I’d rather have them go after someone like Westbrook. We just need a league average starter to replace the mess that is Jeff Suppan.
The point is, we don’t want the Cardinals’ prospects. That only looks like a lot to give up when you have so little in the first place.
Then you’ll keep Oswalt, unless you’re willing to eat a ton of money. Oswalt almost certainly won’t be worth the money left on his contract so giving up anything of value without getting considerable money back would be stupid for any team to do. Unless the Astros’ front office figures that out, Oswalt will continue pitching in Houston.
Maybe the Cardinals office thought that it was April Fool’s Day to make that proposal.
That’s what happens when the Astros won’t pick up any salary and Oswalt wants his option. Expect more crap offers until something changes.
Oswalt has said numerous times now that his option won’t be an issue for the right offer and he’ll restructure his contract to accommodate. The Stros have said they’ll pick up some salary. I’ve been accused os being misinformed, but really…
Without Miller, a trade isn’t worth it. Not saying we won’t screw it up, but hopefully they don’t compromise this opportunity away when Roy’s value will never be higher.
Astros’ fans seemingly don’t realize that Oswalt’s value simply isn’t that high. He’s owed at least $18 million after this year and, potentially, up to $32 million. It’s unlikely that he’s going to be worth that much money over the next 2 years so why would a team give up anything of value in order to get someone who has little value.
Shelby Miller’s value to the Cardinals, based on his being a top 50 pitcher, is about $16 million. Oswalt’s value is near $0. Therefore, just to make this trade even out, the Astros will have to eat a minimum of $10-15 million in this deal. And that’s to get Shelby Miller ONLY! Maybe the ‘stros are willing to eat most of Oswalt’s salary but, knowing Drayton McLane, I sincerely doubt it.
Oswalt is a good pitcher but we need to dispense with this myth about his “value never being higher.” It simply isn’t. It’s ok for Astros’ fans to live with that fantasy but, if the Astros front office lives with it as well (which I think is likely considering we’re talking about McLane and Ed Wade), they’ll end up keeping Roy Oswalt.
Oswalt is making exactly what the market dictates, he’s an impact arm, and there’s no reason to assume he won’t be viable as a frontline starter. Comparrisons aside, just looking at age, you’d have to say that cliff Lee and Doc would also not be worth the money because they’ll be too old come 2012 to contribute at the same level.
If you assume they’ll still be elite, and based on the drool at their mention, most people do, then you also have to assume Roy will be pitching somewhere near his career averages, though definitely not his career bests, with only a typical amount of decline, if any, since 34 just isn’t that old with the advancements in recovery and rejuvenation available to players these days.
That makes him worth the saluary, and likely more since inflation will drive up the market for elite pitchers, but he’ll be locked in at what is now average, but in 2 years could very well seem affordable.
First, those values assume regression on Oswalt’s part. Second, those values are calculated in a vacuum. What is more valuable to St. Louis: a quality pitcher on a large salary right now, or a chance at a quality pitcher on the cheap in 3 years when Holliday is 33, Carpenter is 38, and Pujols may be gone?
In 3 years Oswalt will be nearing 36 and will be on another contract. He’s not signed past next year, with an option for 2012. And the likelihood that he’ll be a $16 million pitcher in his age 35-36 season isn’t very good at all.
His next contract is likely irrelevant, because while he likely will not be a 16mil dollar pitcher in 3 years, he has stated his desire to retire at the end of this contract, and the pitcher he will be in 3 years will be good enough to close out his current contract because while he may not be worth 16 mil in 2012, for now he’s worth more, so it’ll even out. If he stays beyond this contract of course his next will be for less
I never said he would be. My comment was referring to the fact that Oswalt now is worth more to the Cardinals than Miller in 3 years, when Holliday is declining, Carpenter is retired, and Pujols is god knows where. Sure, Shelby Miller has a lot of value, but thats not going to matter much if the Cardinals are a 3rd place team.
First, those values assume regression on Oswalt’s part. Second, those values are calculated in a vacuum. What is more valuable to St. Louis: a quality pitcher on a large salary right now, or a chance at a quality pitcher on the cheap in 3 years when Holliday is 33, Carpenter is 38, and Pujols may be gone?
Astros’ fans seemingly don’t realize that Oswalt’s value simply isn’t that high. He’s owed at least $18 million after this year and, potentially, up to $32 million. It’s unlikely that he’s going to be worth that much money over the next 2 years so why would a team give up anything of value in order to get someone who has little value.
Shelby Miller’s value to the Cardinals, based on his being a top 50 pitcher, is about $16 million. Oswalt’s value is near $0. Therefore, just to make this trade even out, the Astros will have to eat a minimum of $10-15 million in this deal. And that’s to get Shelby Miller ONLY! Maybe the ‘stros are willing to eat most of Oswalt’s salary but, knowing Drayton McLane, I sincerely doubt it.
Oswalt is a good pitcher but we need to dispense with this myth about his “value never being higher.” It simply isn’t. It’s ok for Astros’ fans to live with that fantasy but, if the Astros front office lives with it as well (which I think is likely considering we’re talking about McLane and Ed Wade), they’ll end up keeping Roy Oswalt.
Happ, Mathieson, Gose, Rizzotti
Take out Gose if the Phils aren’t getting any money from Houston
as a phil i would happy if they got full value for him. i am not a fan of his, the only thing he is valuable for is his speed. yes he steals a lot of bases but when your only hitting 265 in high a there is a problem.
He’s only 20 years old. He has tremendous physical tools. He’s not some small guy either. He has a chance to be very good.
thoughts on possibly packaging Wesley Wright or Matt Lindstrom with Oswalt for that package?
I have a hard time believing any team will be interested in Wright. He’s very good from the bullpen, but he struggles with consistency. He has potential as a bottom of the order starter, though. Still, I don’t see a lot of interest forming. Could be wrong.
Lindstrom, on the other hand, is very valuable, especially as he establishes himself as a top of the line closer. What team doesn’t want a fireballer at the back of tthe pen waiting to shut the other team down? He needs to get a little more control, but as a reliever, he could have a lot of years left in him since he’s not overworking his body the way a starter does.
Personally, and I’m no GM so I could be wrong, id hold onto him, let Arnsburg develop him a little more, and trade him next year when he’s potentially worth more… or he could tank, but life’s a gamble. And besides, I may not be a GM, but there are some real geniuses who are…
Yeah I only mention Wright because he’s a lefty and the Phils would use him out of the pen as a specialist, haven’t watched him pitch but his numbers don’t look terrible and I’ve read he’s got pretty good stuff.
Most likely however if the ‘Stros were gunna throw someone on it would have to be Brandon Lyon and that awful contract but I would hate to see the Phils add that terrible contract to the list of awful contracts they already possess. Though adding Lyon may bring the asking price down which (if it does) would have to be something to look at.
I dunno, ridiculous contract aside, Lyon has been effective. I can’t spit saberstats to prove it, and was told I need to learn them, but I watch the games, so I think I can trust that. He’s not worth 5mil/yr but easily 3.5 I think. Maybe 5 if he was a solid closer as initially projected, but he got hurt and we have what we have.
Point being, Lyon could grow into his contract, but with lindstrom performing so well, he won’t get a chance to find out. Even still, there is some value here, though salary relief could be good too, and 5mil is 5mil so if I understood you correctly, I could see your point
I dunno, ridiculous contract aside, Lyon has been effective. I can’t spit saberstats to prove it, and was told I need to learn them, but I watch the games, so I think I can trust that. He’s not worth 5mil/yr but easily 3.5 I think. Maybe 5 if he was a solid closer as initially projected, but he got hurt and we have what we have.
Point being, Lyon could grow into his contract, but with lindstrom performing so well, he won’t get a chance to find out. Even still, there is some value here, though salary relief could be good too, and 5mil is 5mil so if I understood you correctly, I could see your point
Yeah I only mention Wright because he’s a lefty and the Phils would use him out of the pen as a specialist, haven’t watched him pitch but his numbers don’t look terrible and I’ve read he’s got pretty good stuff.
Most likely however if the ‘Stros were gunna throw someone on it would have to be Brandon Lyon and that awful contract but I would hate to see the Phils add that terrible contract to the list of awful contracts they already possess. Though adding Lyon may bring the asking price down which (if it does) would have to be something to look at.
I have a hard time believing any team will be interested in Wright. He’s very good from the bullpen, but he struggles with consistency. He has potential as a bottom of the order starter, though. Still, I don’t see a lot of interest forming. Could be wrong.
Lindstrom, on the other hand, is very valuable, especially as he establishes himself as a top of the line closer. What team doesn’t want a fireballer at the back of tthe pen waiting to shut the other team down? He needs to get a little more control, but as a reliever, he could have a lot of years left in him since he’s not overworking his body the way a starter does.
Personally, and I’m no GM so I could be wrong, id hold onto him, let Arnsburg develop him a little more, and trade him next year when he’s potentially worth more… or he could tank, but life’s a gamble. And besides, I may not be a GM, but there are some real geniuses who are…
thoughts on possibly packaging Wesley Wright or Matt Lindstrom with Oswalt for that package?
I doubt they would pull the trigger if Houston doesn’t kick in some money
Why would a team that is at least a couple years from contending want a back of the rotation starter who turns 28 in october?
Because Ed Wade is a buddy of the Phils, and he’s made dumber trades in the past.
Brendan Ryan of the Mendoza line hitter for oswalt? Brendan part time player Ryan for Oswalt, What am I missing? Was that a typo?
One would hope that’s a typo. If he was really the offered player, the Astros probably hung up laughing.
oswalt and berkman for pujols….
lol
Would the Astros have any interest in Victorino? Not as the centerpiece of the deal, but in addition to some decent A ball prospects? Probably not with Bourn, Pence, and the rotting remains of Carlos Lee’s career there, but Victorino can play all 3 outfield positions so maybe they can flip him or one of their outfielders to a 3rd team.
I only suggest this if the Phillies can’t move Werth, since they would need to relieve themselves of some salary before adding Oswalt.
Dejesus, Mitchell, Loney, Hu, Withrow, Elbert, and Ethan Martin for Oswalt and Berkman (Astros pay a chunk of their remaining salaries).
Table, I’m pretty sure Astros asked for Kemp or Ethier and our two best position prospects, who are Gordon and Sands.
Dodgers probably hung up the phone when Astros’ GM was in the middle of saying Jerry Sands’ name.
I can’t believe they would be that stupid.
It had to be Loney and/or DeWitt they were asking for. There’s no way the Astros think that Oswalt is worth Ethier or Kemp, and besides, we’re already set in the outfield.
I get that you are exaggerating, but I am pretty sure they would want infielders, they have a set outfield.
It says big league ready position players not established near free agency stars. So Dejesus, Hu, and Mitchell are our closest to big league ready infielders, none of them are really good, but Wade is dumb enough that he could look at their inflated AAA stats and go for it.
Wow. That’s way too much. Loney, Withrow AND E. Martin? Are you sure you’re a Dodger fan?The Astros would have to be paying Berkman’s ENTIRE salary for that. And a good chunk of Oswalt’s, too. Berkman is a downgrade from Loney right now. I’m not that high on Loney, but look at Berkman’s numbers. Loney is the more productive player. Berkman has a very, very slight edge in OBP and SLG, but his BA is terrible, he’s slow, and his 12 HRs aren’t exactly overwhelming. Loney has far superior numbers wRISP. Figure in Berkman’s contract and the fact he’s on the decline while Loney still has strong upside… it isn’t worth swapping those two unless it means the Dodgers sending lesser prospects for Oswalt.In which case, I’d hope the deal was something like Loney, Elbert, Mitchell, DeJesus, Hu and McDonald or Ely (not Withrow or E. Martin)
Well, if the Dodgers only have 2-3 million to work with on their payroll, the Astros would have to pay the majority of those contracts. Maybe some doe to help pay for their contacts next year as well. I know it is allot, but much less and that deal becomes laughable anyways.
no way loney is on the table. he’s the only reliable bat, aside from Carroll, right now.
Matt Laas that may be the funniest joke I have ever heard!!! LMAO!!!
What does “major league position players” mean? James Loney? Blake DeWitt? The Astros shouldn’t be asking for that. Go after the prospects, forget about the big league guys.
Position players are anyone on the field who’s not a pitcher.
Um, yeah. I know that much. I was referring to who the Astros would be asking for specifically. None of the Dodgers’ MLB guys make sense for the Astros to deal for, IMO… at least none of the ones they have any chance of getting, anyway.
Clearly Sands and Gordon were part of the deal. And like I said prior, anyone of our “core” players.
Neither of those guys are MLB players though. They are prospects who won’t be in the majors until at least next year. Apparently the Astros are asking for major league guys. I was asking who… and why.
i’m thinking loney but who else? and if it is loney why when they have berkman? im with you i have no idea who they’re asking for and why they’re asking for them.
Why is right. If we’re rebuilding we don’t want anyone over 23 or 24 because we’re looking at 2012 or 2013 to contend, which I think is the point you’re making, though feel free to correct me. Though if drayton stays at the helm he may try to get us to believe were contending next year since he thinks every year with no noticeable improvements made.
I like our core, this year not being in keeping with the norms, of pence, bourn, cj, and castro, assuming cj stays hot and castro develops some consistency. Sanchez is turning into a pleasant suprise at the plate after a horrid start. But if we could get another middle if, a lf, and a corner if, plus some pitching both in the pen and out… I know its a lot, but the point is I think we have something to build around. Am I wrong?
Phils better hurry up and trade Werth for some prospects if they want any shot at Oswalt.
I don’t think Werth coould net Oswalt-worthy prospects by himself. Not because he isn’t a professional hitter, but because no one seems interested. Theories about Oswalts worth aside, if I have a 500 dollar diamond and the most anyone will pay is 200 its worth 200.
No one is beating down the door for Werth. A few polite inquiries, but not a lot of noise. If Roy really weren’t worth the money, my views as a loyal fan saying he is, but obviously other people think he is. There’s a demand, big demand from the noise being made, for a pitcher like Roy, and his pricetag is no secret.
His stuff is fantastic. Reports are he gets bored down in Houston. Revived for a pennat race year in and year out? Sure think he would be. This guy is a stud and Werth can net some decent prospects along with the few the Phils have should be plenty to get Oswalt. As long as the Phils are willing to eat all that money and give up the prospects. And as a side note, Werth will get traded if the Phils want Oswalt that bad. The Red Sox have interested, along with the Giants and Rays. Those three teams would give enough to get Werth if the deal is right. None of those teams would overpay though, so Philly needs to really consider how bad they want Oswalt.
From what I have read, the Gaints are focusing on lefties. Raul Ibanez perhaps? š I kid….
LOL
Astros are Offering to pay over 5 million dollars of Oswalts Salary to get what they are looking for. Oswalt has also said he would restructure to acouple of teams Not just the Cards. He just wants to go there.
I would almost think the Astros Asked for Dodgers James Loney Blake Dewitt Jerry Sands and a pair of SP prospects Javy Guerra and Aaron Miller could get this done.
Phillies: Jarred Cosart Aaron Hyatt Matthew Rozzotti and 1 Of the Prospects you get when you trade Either Jayson Werth or Ibanez.
Cards Ill say it fast and In hurry No One wants Craig Ryan Greene Lynn Jones Hawksworth Salas or Jon Jay. To the Astros those guys are not Prospects there the AAAAAAAAAAAA a Team. Shelby Miller Matthew Adams and Colby Rasmus with a PTBNL (Which would depend on if the Cards go to the Series and if they dont its a Swap and Astros have a PTBNL) The Only 2 young PLayers that have value to the Astros are Rasmus and Miller. As I have said on the Radio this morning when I pitched it to 610 Am Radio this morning The Cards have no Value and if they want to go to the Series then so Be it. But what will happen to Jon Jay and his Almost .400AVG when Ryan Ludwick and his 6 million a year .300 AVG and 12 Hrs comes back? Do you stick your fan favorite back on the Bench and let him loose Confediance? Or do you try and grab someone with your CF whom has the most Value. Only has 1yr under his belt and really only has showed half a years worth of actual baseball XP. Sure he was playing Last year but series he is the only valued player. So Read it and wheep
“Rosenthal tweets that the Astros asked the Dodgers for both big league-ready position players and prospects in a deal for Oswalt.”
Phillies: Jarred Cosart Aaron Hyatt Matthew Rozzotti and 1 Of the Prospects you get when you trade Either Jayson Werth or Ibanez.
I think if you replace Cosart with JA Happ because they want some MLB ready talent you may get them talking….but I honestly do not think the Phillies will give up Cosart, Singleton, or Brown; so I don’t think a deal will get done.
Also, I think the Phillies don’t find a trading partner for Werth either. They wanted Wade Davis or BJ Upton from the Rays which would be WAY to steep for the Rays at this point.
As a Phillies fan, I’d much rather see them go after Haren, but as a realist, I’m not expecting anything but Kendrick, Happ (when he comes back), Worley, and Carpenter to compete for the last two spots unfortunately.
The Cards would never give up Rasmus… And we will take John Jay! HAHA!
The Cards were seeing how little they can offer, and got their answer. Now I expect a deal to happen soon. Here is what I think:
Astros Get: John Jay, Brendan Ryan, Blake Hawksworth, & Fernando Salas
Cards Get: Roy Oswalt (Half of the contract eaten) & 1 Minor League Prospect
Take it or leave it. š And if the Cards would throw in Rasmus as a sub for 1 or 2 of the 4 above, it would be an instant deal!
i would do that deal.
although i can’t tell if your being sarcastic or not.
I wasn’t being sarcastic at all. You would really do that? Hm… Maybe Hawksworth, Salas, and Jay aren’t as good as I thought. Haha.
This is the trade I think will happen to be honest.
Add Rasmus and it’s a deal. š
Look at some of Ed Wade’s past trades. Can’t blame the Card’s for trying.
Not sure why people keep saying this. Is it just fashionable to dog on Ed Wade? Since he’s so bad at trading players, why don’t you go ahead and point me out two trades Ed Wade has clearly lost big on over the last decade.
I’ll wait.
Meant to like this, not craigs. Wade does the best he can with what he’s got. Pedro came off a season hitting over 80 homers and projected to be an acceptable substitute in case CJ wasn’t ready, then they had to play him cause the money. Lindstroms golden. Bourns making his money.
Not every move is popular, and some don’t make sense, but we don’t have the inside info, yet we try and pretend we’re privy to all the dirt and that Ed is an obvious moron. He’s in an unenviable position of making a mountain out of a molehill, and it can’t always work.
…What?
Late lol to check this, but I totally meant 80 rbis. Not that anyone will likely read this, but for posterity sake I need to correct myself š
No, Wade is just horrible with free agent signings, not necessarily trading. people jsut seem to think both are interchangeable for some reason.
Exactly.
Have a like.
See above. In trades involving the selling-off of elite players, he hasn’t done well.
I’m not referring to every trade he has made, just trades of that type. He’s acquired some excellent talent for peanuts (Valverde, Wagner) but the players he received for his own star players are terrible.
In trades where he is selling off a star player, he hasn’t done well. It isn’t arguable.
Rolen, Schilling, Lidge.
Hindsight is 20/20, as always, but he was shellacked on those deals. Might have missed one or two, but I can’t find a similar type of trade that he clearly won.
There you go. Hope you didn’t have to wait long.
Wade won the Lidge trade. The Rolen trade, you could go either way, when contract issues are factored in. It certainly wasn’t a clear-cut, major loss for Wade.
The only one of those he clearly lost was the Schilling trade.
Also, I note that the only one of those with the Astros was the Lidge trade… which as I said, he pretty clearly won. The other two were at the beginning of the decade, long before he ever became the GM of this team.
He’s made plenty of fair (even) or good trades, too. Tejada, Keppinger, and Lindstrom jump to mind.
How did he win the Lidge trade? Because he received an all-defense no-hit speedy CF, while Lidge went on to have one of the best relief seasons in recent memory leading to a World Series win? Geary had a good ’08 for the ‘Stros, but that’s it. Costanzo…who? Rolen was their franchise guy, at the time, even if he didn’t want to stay. Still, Polanco was useful (certainly not a star), Smith was a prospect who the Card’s sold high on after his no-no. Timlin was a solid reliever. Rolen went on to have a GREAT career with the Cards, helping them win a World Series. In absolutely no way can you claim Wade didn’t lose that trade. That’s laughable and downright absurd. Schilling trade, as you said, he clearly lost.So, basically, the elite guys Wade has traded in the past went on to have excellent season(s), two of HOF-type careers, and each won a World Series with said team. For those three players, they received a haul consisting of a few useful guys, but mostly marginal or completely useless players.You’re way off base. Completely wrong in every regard. You seem to be grasping at straws and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Michael Bourn is a gold glove-winning, stolen base-crown winning center fielder who is probably the best defensive outfielder in the NL, and a solid leadoff hitter. Lidge had one good season then fell off a cliff and is now one of the most overpaid relief pitchers in the game. Bourn will be producing surplus value for the Astros for years.
The Rolen trade is close because, as I said, of contractual issues. Rolen went on to have a very good career, but was also paid a lot more money than the pieces Wade got back. You can’t measure trades simply by how well a player performs; you must measure how well they perform compared to what they are being paid.
You’re contractual argument is garbage. Rolen made a lot of money because he was one of the top 3b in baseball who was in the midst of a HOF career. If the players Wade traded him for would have developed into elite players, guess what? They would have been paid a lot more. They didn’t get paid a lot more because they were no where near as good as Rolen. Not even close. And he played a major part on a championship ball club. Wade lost that deal. By a lot. It’s not close, at all. The money argument holds no water. I mean, would you rather have a HOF type player, in his prime, for market value… or a good utility guy (at the time), a solid reliever, and a nobody? C’mon man, you can’t tell me you honestly believe what you’re writing.
Bourn is fast and plays good defense. His only redeeming quality on offense is his speed. He’s a terrible, terrible, terrible hitter. Outside of his one good year, 2009, he has been awful. Speedy, all-glove, no-hit OF’s aren’t hard to come by. A lead-hitter who has posted an OBP of less than .330 in 2 of 3 seasons with the team is not a good leadoff hitter. No sir. Next. Oh, and Lidge played a huge role on a championship team.
I mention Schilling again because, he too, played a huge role on a championship ball club. Notice a theme developing?
So, 3 World Series titles, 2 HOF’ers, a historically good relief season. C’mon dude. I know its not easy to admit when you’re wrong, but this isn’t even close.
Oh, and I’m sure I could dig up the combined record of Wade’s teams with the players he acquired for his 3 stars. That’s not worth it though, because I think it is safe to say they didn’t win much of anything. None of the guys he acquired can be called building blocks for winning clubs, which is exactly the type of players you should acquire when dealing elite talent.
Also, I clearly stated the type of trade I was referring to (Elite players being sold off). Those three guys don’t fit that criteria and I’m not sure why you are mentioning them in this context.
Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling?
Cardinals offered this deal to get offers going on Oswalt.. Clearly there are a dozen teams looking at Oswalt and someone has to make an offer to get this thing going. I think that it on the Phils now to make an offer then the Cards will more than likely swoop in with a brand new trade. Oswalt doesnt want to play for the Phils, he wants to win with the Cards so at this point its only a matter of time. Either way though, they not missing out. They have to get a decent pitcher before next week. Cards/Reds are too close and thr Reds arnt going away so if Mo wants to do his job and do it well he will make a trade for a pitcher. Hope its Oswalt.
I think Oswalt is overrated and Mo should take a pass. I certainly wouldn’t give up Shelby Miller for him. Let the greedy Astros scam some other team.
i agree.
Astros’ front office isn’t exactly the most intelligent group of people. I also doubt they want to trade their best player within the division. Just can’t see a good match up here.
if were gonna spend 16million..do it in the offseason on free agents.
Overrated? Look at his numbers.
They don’t know what they are talking about… Let them be…
Oswalts good.. I would say overrated and lets face it.. he sure would make a great number 3 pitcher in our rotation haha
I don’t believe he is overrated at ALL. He is one of the best NL pitchers, just doesn’t have enough run support. If he was a Yankee, he would be a top pitcher.
Watching him pitch tonight wasn’t exactly awe inspiring if you get my drift. I don’t care about his numbers, he is 32 years old, injury prone, and overpriced. The Cardinals don’t need to spend the money for a rent-a-pitcher.
Halladay and lee have bad nights too, lees texas debut comes to mind. And injury prone is an exaggeration. He had some back issues, one year, and hasn’t shown any indication of regression. His biggest “injury” this yeah was a ball off the ankle that amounted to nothing. Before last year, no history
I never said he was a bad pitcher, just not worth the asking price to the Cardinals.
I can understand that. But I still believe that if you put him on a good team like the Cards, he would have numbers like Carpenter has.
Woops I meant to say “Wouldnt say he’s overated”
Everyone is freaking out over Oswalt’s contract, but think of McLane’s position. Oswalt is one of the few players the fans come out to see any more. In an Astros’ uniform, he could pretty much pay for himself. McLane has been actively looking for buyers of this team as well. Moving Roy will only hurt the sale value of this team. Unknown prospects will not fetch him a higher price and a burdensome contract without a player to make that money back will not help either. This clearly goes far beyond Oswalt’s statistical value.
By virtue of what the Astros are asking other teams for, they’re not all that interested in moving Oswalt. 2 players + prospects from a deep L.A. organization? Funny! Shelby Miller + from the Cards? Good one.
I saw your post on the Cardinals’ blog. You really don’t understand the concept of a marginal win having more value to postseason contenders, do you?
You act like this makes some material difference in the calculation. What you’re really doing is using that to distract from the point that Shelby Miller is $10 – 15 million more valuable than Roy Oswalt is. That’s beyond dispute. You seem to be trying to create reasons why Roy Oswalt is more valuable, and therefore worth teams’ top 3 + prospects, than he really is. He just isn’t that valuable due to the salary the team is responsible for. Rather than debating that, you use other statements like the one above to deflect.
You can say, “Roy’s great. He’s elite. He’s worth 3 top prospects” if you want but it just isn’t true. I know you read fangraphs and expect that you’re at least somewhat familiar w/ Sky’s work over at BtB or Victor’s work at THT so my arguments shouldn’t be foreign to you. We can bicker about whether the difference is $10 million or $15 million but there’s no honest way you can defend an argument that Oswalt is worth Shelby Miller + 2 other prospects or 3 top prospects from the Dodgers’ system. He simply isn’t. Unless the Astros eat a ton of coin, they will not be able to trade Oswalt for anything more than so-so prospects. I suppose I shouldn’t be so absolutist since we never know what 1 crazy GM might do so I’ll qualify that by saying that he isn’t worth anything more than so-so prospects unless the Astros eat a ton of coin, the additional couple million that he might be worth to a playoff contender notwithstanding.
astros are crazy. now the dodgers aren’t gonna do anything by the deadline.
I’m kind of at the point where I think this just won’t happen unless some wild card like the white sox with peavy jumps in at the last minute. I don’t trust the Astros front office to finally understand that they need a complete overhaul. I’m sure at this point that they believe that Sanchez’s 52 abs is proof that he is a full time shortstop. They’ll probably keep Berkman and pick up his option, give Lindstrom a horrible extension, and fill in next year with more pedro feliz types.
How is lindstrom NOT worth extending, if we were contending? I haven’t made any derrogatory comments so far, but really, Stupid.
You think extending Lindstrom is a good idea? He’ll make at least 3 mill next year and will never be as valuable as he is right now. The Astros have zero! chance of competing next year and maybe not for the next three years. How in the heck is a closer with one good year under his belt worth keeping around for a team that will win 60 games? How about resigning Myers too!!!? The Stros have three players with some actual trade value and should move them all right now. You don’t have any worries that this guy is having a flash in the pan type year? I guess he could stick around and collect those 25 saves next year. That will be so exciting.
Not gonna trade Oswalt eh? Guess thats the Stros way of getting a little attention this season. Oh well, Oswalts not exactly in his prime right not and Cards would for sure have to give up Miller for that trade and I would rather take our chances with another pitcher than to see Miller pitch against the Cards in the next few years. So, who else is out there… Lilly, Meyers, Westbrook? Anyone! Please! Just get Soup outta there! I rather shave my taint with a broken beer bottle than see Soup take the mound for another pathetic, insured lose again!
Why do these reporters continue to tweet the obvious that has been known for day if not weeks that the Phillies may trade Werth to get Oswalt or Haren. Now Ed Price and the Fox Sports guys join in reportering what has been already known.
Rockies get: Anderson, Cantu, Anibal Sanchez, Daniel Nava and Jayson Werth.
Phillies get: Oswalt
Astros get: Chacin, Marinez, EY jr and Ryan Spilborghs
Marlins get: Hawpe, and Corpas
Red Sox get: Ianetta and Matt Miller
any thoughts?
I think the Rockies would do it and probably the Phillies, although allowing them to get both Cantu and Werth may deter them, and the Red Sox would probably do it. But there is absolutely no reason why the Marlins would do that.
astros i thought too. The Marlins probably need a little more. maybe from the phils? i just dont no who they have after brown
Phillies have Singleton and Rizzotti who are both slugging 1B but that is not what the Marlins want. I don’t know if the Phillies would deal any prospects to their division foes…
thats the beauty of 4 teams. Have the fins keep Marinez and the stros replace him with singleton. Rockies would love one of them but this trade already gave them Anderson
Phillies give up Werth and get Oswalt….I’m in.
5 team trades happen all the time…
they can keep oswalt, after the way he pitched yesterday. suppan and hawksworth couldn’t be any worse!
“Rockies get: Anderson, Cantu, Anibal Sanchez, Daniel Nava and Jayson Werth.
Phillies get: Oswalt
Astros get: Chacin, Marinez, EY jr and Ryan Spilborghs
Marlins get: Hawpe, and Corpas
Red Sox get: Ianetta and Matt Miller
any thoughts? ”
It’s very clear you’re a Rockies fan…