The Mariners officially acquired first baseman Casey Kotchman from the Red Sox for Bill Hall, a player to be named later, and cash. Jason A. Churchill of Prospect Insider says the PTBNL will be a minor league catcher. Churchill's colleague Chris Crawford first broke news of the Kotchman trade on Tuesday, with Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports tweeting the Hall element later.
WEEI's Alex Speier explained that this trade was closely linked to Boston's Adrian Beltre signing, and allowed the Red Sox to add Beltre without raising their luxury tax payroll much. The Mariners, meanwhile, have their regular first baseman and Russell Branyan replacement in Kotchman. In recent years Kotchman's defense has been strong, his offense subpar. He's arbitration-eligible this winter and figures to earn more than $3MM in 2010.
I’ll bet it’s cheap because Kotchman does not have any power. Where are the Mariners going to replace Branyan’s power?
That is what I was thinking – while I think Kotchman can be a pretty good 1B given full playing time, he probably won’t even get 20 HRs.
I guess they could get 25+ HRs from Lopez, but who exactly are there power threats after that? Not saying you can’t win without power, but it’d definitely help.
Oops, Bradley could very well hit 20+ as well. Still, he is very inconsistent. I think they could still use some power.
I don’t know what happened to Kotchman. In 2005, he hit 7 HR’s in 125 AB’s which was 41 games. If he would had continue what he did in 05. He would hit 20+ HR’s with elite defense who can win GG’s every years.
Not sure if they care much about scoring runs anymore – seems like defense and defense alone is their concern. All their hitters (sans Bradley) are really floaters around the .330 average wOBA mark.
That would be a perfect fit…Haven’t thought of that kinda deal yet ..hmmm
That would be awesome. Great defense, high OBP. Not really a power bat, but I’ll take it.
Good idea, Sox should at least get a pretty decent prospect for him. Maybe this means that Lowell is staying in Boston as a DH/backup 1B, which is an amazing idea. Really liking this if it all plays out.
Why would the Sox get a “decent prospect” for Kotchman. The M’s know the Sox have no use for Kotch — they’ve got Beltre at 3B; Youk at 1B; and Lowell pulling down $12 million a year on the bench. Since the Sox are desparate to get rid of Kotch, the M’s have no reason to give up anything of value for him. My guess is the Sox get nothing other than the M’s agreeing to pay Kotch’s entire salary (and maybe a low-tier M’s prospect). Having Lowell as a backup DH/1B/3B isn’t so bad; except that he’s making $12 million, which is a lot for a bench player (unless you’re the Red Sox or the Yankees).
or the Mets, or Phillies, or Cubs, they could all afford it considering they had a higher payroll than the Red Sox last year.
Why would the Red Sox get a decent prospect for Kotchman?
The M’s know the Sox have nowhere to play Kotchman — they’ve got Beltre at 3B; they’ve got Youk at 1B; and Lowell’s immovable thanks to his $12M salary. The Red Sox won’t carry Kotchman (who will probably make over $4M this season after arbitration) as a backup corner infielder (that’s what Lowell’s for), so they’re only real options are (1) to dump Kotchman (in a trade) or (2) to release Kotchman (and pay his salary anyway).
Given that, the M’s have no reason to give up anything of value to get Kotchman. If the Sox demand a “decent prospect,” the M’s will simply walk away and wait for the Sox to cut Kotchman loose (or pickup someone else who will put up comparable numbers).
The Sox would not need to pay Kotchman’s salary if they released him. They could instead go through the arbitration process. By going through arbitration Kotchman would receive a non-guaranteed deal. The Sox could then cut him lose for baseball reasons (Lowell is better) and only be on the hook for 30 days of his salary depending on when they cut him.
Even if you are correct (and I think you are), this doesn’t change the main point of my message at all: The M’s have no reason to give up anything of value for Kotchman.
The Sox are not going to get back a piece they can flip for Adrian Gonzalez; they’re not even going to get back a piece that will help them in the near future. This is a dump trade (to free up a crowded roster at the corner-IF position). Even if the Sox can cut Kotch loose without paying his salary, that doesn’t mean the M’s will give up anything of value for him…
That’s a great way to get sued by the union. I know the Padres did that with someone a year or two ago and ended up paying the salary after a judge ruled that releasing them after the arbitration timetable did not leave enough time to find an equivalent job.
I hear you. I’m honestly not expecting the Sox to get anything solid in return for him. The best the the Sox will likely get out of the deal is deciding where he ends up (along with saving some small amount of money).
the m.s are going 2 give up somebody. they are not going to get him for free. its baseball not a handout. if the red sox was going to get max ramirez from the rangers for lowell, they are going 2 get something from the m’s.
You are correct, the Sox were going to get Max in exchange for Lowell and $9M. Lowell is a far better offensive player than, although his defense at this point is certainly suspect. That being said, the Rangers were only looking at Lowell for his bat and the fact of the matter is they would be receiving a better hitter at a smaller financial cost than Kotchman brings. The Sox will not get a significant piece in return for Kotchman, the best we can hope for is someone to replace the prospect we gave up for Hermedia.
And yes, this is coming from a Sox fan.
Do you really think the Sox’s are going to keep a 12 million bench player,i really doubt
it.
no way, they need power. They should sign LaRoche or something, Kotch is a great defender but come on
I absolutely agree. Laroche is just about as good on defense but actually can hit a ball. I have been thoroughly disappointed with Kotchman the year I had to suffer him being in Atlanta.
I agree the M’s could use some more power, but to say LaRoche is “just about as good” with the glove as Kotchman isn’t close to true.
LaRoche UZR/150 over the past four seasons: -0.5, -8.1, 6.7, -3.3
Kotchman: 11.1, 5.3, 7.5, 20.3
If I were running the team, I’d have thought LaRoche would’ve been a better fit, but Jack Z seems willing to accept that he’s in a pitchers’ park and that he has to win with pitching, defense, and OBP rather than power. Gotta respect the man’s gameplan.
Plus, Kotch has shown some power in the past… he won’t hit 25+ home runs, but he could crank out 15 and I wouldn’t be shocked by any means.
I have to agree with this completely. Building a team on power is a recipe for failure in that ballpark. I really don’t even know if it’s necessary. OBP, speed, defense and fly ball pitching (that’s right…see Silva, Carlos if you think otherwise) will lead to a 95 win season.
I know it’s quite different, but have you ever tried playing video game baseball at Safeco? Your power threats turn into routine fly ball hitters. You have to go with high on-base, speed guys to run around the bases as there aren’t too many homers hit. I imagine success in real life mirrors this approach. Z certainly seems to think so.
When you raise those points you are right. I didnt realize Laroche had those defensive numbers in comparison. Also you are right about building that team on defense. I just have such a negative view of Kotchman because of the way he was acquired by the Braves. I suppose Im still sore over the Teixeira raping.
It will be very interesting to watch the seattle mariners this year!
I don’t see how Beltre’s signing affects the need for Kotchman. The Sox will still need a bench corner infielder (assuming a Lowell trade).
if they deal kotchman, why would you still “assume” a lowell trade? lowell is difficult to trade, kotchman should be easy to trade.
You can’t really “assume” a Lowell trade.
The Rangers nixed a deal for Lowell because of his injury. And, Lowell’s contract makes him nearly impossible to move. (To get the Rangers to give up Max Ramirez for Lowell, the Red Sox had to offer to pay $9 million of Lowell’s $12 million salary.)
Decent offense, good D.
1 year/$2.885M contract is very affordable.
Good buy low candidate.
If I were Z I’d look into adding 1 more SP & reliever.
Curious to know what it will cost. Two years ago he was traded almost straight across for Texiera, then last year traded almost straight across for Laroche. Why hasn’t he stuck anywhere? and is he much of an upgrade over Carp?
So who’s going to get suckered into giving Russell Branyan two years at some ridiculous price? And where does Adam LaRoche end up?
My guess: Giants sign Branyan for two, Orioles sign LaRoche for two plus an option.
orioles dont want to block 1st base prospect Snyder, laroche isn’t worth blocking a top prospect. i could see him signing 1 plus option, not two
Snyder’s solid, but certainly not a top prospect. Especially when you’re talking first base in the AL East.
Snyder has 15, maybe 20 homer pop and isn’t much of a defender. His bat would play much better if he had stuck with his original position, catcher, or maybe switched to the outfield. Of course, the catcher and outfield spots are all taken in Baltimore for the foreseeable future…
Anyways, as an O’s fan, I wouldn’t mind blocking Snyder with LaRoche, as I’d take LaRoche’s bat over Snyder’s any day of the week. And if the O’s sign LaRoche, he can keep first base warm for Brandon Waring, who’s got serious power and should be ready by late 2011. Snyder then becomes trade bait.
Agreed, Branyan had a good year last year, but for the most part it was pretty flukey compared to his career, giving him a two year deal will more than likely be regretted. I’d guess the Kotchman deal is intended to buy the Ms a potential replacement in the event that Branyan doesn’t go for a 1+1 deal.
As an Ms fan, I wasn’t convinced last year that handing over the full time gig to Branyan was a good idea, and although it seemed to work when he was healthy, still not convinced it’s a good idea.
This would be another solid move by the Mariners. Kotchman has a lot of upside.I still think they should resign Branyan. He can play 3B, and has shown what he can do when he gets his AB’s. And mabey Figgans can play SS?1) Figgins SS2) Lopez 2B3) Ichiro RF4) Branyan 3B5) Griffey DH6) Kotchman 1B7) Bradley LF8) Gutierrez CF9) Johnson C
Jack Wilson will play SS.
No way Branyan plays 3rd
Appreciate the effort, but seriously, why do folks insist on posting line-ups all the time? Everyone who comments is pretty in tune with personell.
Especially lineups with Ichiro batting 3rd, Jack Wilson (ummm…released shortly after signing a 2 year extension, I guess), Branyan at 3B?
Come on now.
There’s no way Branyan plays anywhere but 1B. And if they did get Branyan, their lineup would IMO be:
RF Ichiro
3B Figgins
LF Bradley
DH Branyan
2B Lopez
CF Gutierrez
1B Kotchman
SS Wilson
C Johnson
He used to be a 3rd basemen
But with age comes limited range. Plus he has back problems, so…
Figgins can play everywhere, but you guys have Jack Wilson. Ichiro is more of a lead off guy Jose Lopez is your power threat.
Holy cow! I’m a Mariners fan livnig in Atlanta and I had the unfortunate experience of watching Kotchman play for the last year and a half. He is awful…end of story. Defense is pretty good (not as good as LaRoche who also was in Atlanta) but the bat is a double play waiting to happen and he is awful in the “clutch”. Not to mention my Grandmother runs twice as fast as Kotchman does and she’s passed away 20 years ago. This would be the first completely “awful” decision by Jack Z in my opinion. throw out all of the stats you guys look up on Kotchman…there’s nothing like watching a guy in person every day and trust me when I say he just adds one easy out to a batting order each time around. The only solid rope hits I ever saw him get was when there was nobody on base and the Braves were either leading by 10 or down by 10 and it was the 8th inning. Otherwise…he is like having a pitcher in our batting order.
not sure what games you were watching in Atl, but Kotchman may very well be the best defensive first bagger in the game… saying LaRoche plays better defense is just silly…
offense is nothing special, but im really interested to see how this amazing defense thats being built in Seattle works out…
not sure what games you were watching in Atl, but Kotchman may very well be the best defensive first bagger in the game… saying LaRoche plays better defense is just silly…
offense is nothing special, but im really interested to see how this amazing defense thats being built in Seattle works out…
I wonder what we’d get in return? Felix Hernandez? I can only dream………
I’m going with, uhh, nothing of value.
So that would make the Mariners’ lineup:
Moore – C
Kotchman – 1B
Lopez – 2B
Wilson – SS
Figgins – 3B
Bradley/Saunders – LF
Gutierrez – CF
Ichiro – RF
Griffey/Bradley – DH
I could see that working pretty well. It’s a lineup focused on defense and OBP with a lot of smaller power sources, rather than one guy who can mash 40 home runs. I would still try to resign Branyan instead, though, if I were Jack Z. Maybe he’s got something else up his sleeve… Maybe they try to acquire a catcher? I don’t think Moore will be able to replace Johjima’s production, but I guess we’ll see.
I bow my head to the M’s this year, BY FAR the best offseason, and if they get Kotchman and they locked up F-Gut for cheap over 4 years. They are going to be a heck of a team to stand up to.
Single best move of the year. Getting rid of the most useless contract in baseball. Carlos Silva. At least they have a guy who can produce for that money now.
I’d rather trade Lowell than Kotchman if we could get rid of Lowells contract
Lowell can be moved in ST at the latest which is why this Kotchman moves is bewildering. He should be staying, along with Lowrie who can play 3B,SS and 2B and between them, they can cover the entire IF. Moving Kotchman is a mistake.
This is just to avoid paying any of the lusury tax.. Be like the NYY and pay a couple million like they did in 2004 and 7. Kotchman’s glove as a reserve for when Beltre gets hurt (he will) is worth it.
it would fit their defense-first approach pretty well. i think they are expecting some power to come from milton bradley.
1. ichiro rf
2. figgins 3b
3. gutierrez cf
4. lopez 2b
5. bradley lf
6. griffey jr. dh
7. kotchman 1b
8. wilson ss
9. moore c- do they sign another catcher or will moore plattoon with josh bard?
Don’t forget that Kotchman was traded for laroche
I guess this means Sox will hold onto Lowell and use him as a bench player spelling Papi, Youk and Beltre–also shows (by Beltre’s 1 year contract) that they intend on moving Youk over to 3rd next year and play prospect Lars Anderson (if he can hit better this year) at 1st…
I hope it is not going to cost the M’s to much. Hopefully a fringe prospect at best
So does this mean Theo accepts the fact that they won’t save much, if any money, so the Red Sox are better off holding on to Lowell? Is there still a great chance that they try to deal him if they also trade Kotchman?
But back to the topic of the Mariners…wow, quite the offseason they’re having. I had a feeling they would be pushing 70-80 wins last year, but keeping that in place while adding Lee, Bradley, Figgins, and possibly Kotchman, I think the M’s will win the AL West for sure next year and might even win 90-95. Hats off to Jack Z, he’s done a hell of a job with that team.
I agree, the M’s are having a fantastic offseason. Bradley is the only risk, yet they got him by trading the most useless contract in carlos silva, plus he adds power. Heh, looking at what the M’s have done, and then what the Red Sox have done (cause I always turn every topic towards the Sox :P), they are creating very similar teams. Both are emphasizing defense and run prevention (although I think the M’s had their defense already well-set before this offseason, and the Sox have completely revamped), with strong pitching (although I personally don’t know who will be 4 and 5 for seattle..anyone good?) and less focus on guys with power. I will definitely be watching the M’s as well this season, they could be interesting. Seeing these two teams play each other could be exciting! 😀
It looks like they’ll go with Rowland-Smith and Snell in the three and four spots. As for the fifth spot it wouldn’t surprise me if they went with a cheap, low-risk, high-reward type of rehab project. They do have that kid Cortes they got in their trade of Yuniesky, maybe he could win a job as the fifth starter if he impresses in ST.
Aww. I was hoping the Sox could find some way of trading Lowell. 😛 Well, I hope we get something good out of it, he’s a great guy. Maybe if they’re -still- looking to do some AGon thing, try to sneak a half-decent prospect or two from the M’s so that they can have more options for San Diego? Plus it’ll be some guys that Hoyer doesn’t know as well 😉
and of course this would have to be for next winter, since with Beltre/Youk there isn’t room in the infield for the deal to happen this year. I dunno. I still wish it was Lowell moving instead! That at least makes sense simply on a money level. This obviously doesn’t cut payroll by much, and is trading away a pretty good player. As I said, hope we get something out of it!
Red Sox Speak: Kotchman for Felix Hernandez.
Don’t go stealin’ my hilarious trade proposals!
Hahahah…nice to imagine though. What if somehow they could make that trade, kotchman/buchholz/another prospect or seventeen, for Hernandez…Lol our rotation would be:
Felix
Beckett
Lester
Lackey
Dice-K
That’s pretty damn unhittable.
Also very imaginary. 😛
Wow, I think you are missing the sarcasm tag.
If they didn’t re-sign Griffey, I think this deal would be great–however, instead of plugging someone like Branyan at DH, the Mariners handed out that feel-good contract to Griffey.
Am I missing something? When did Kotchman become something more than the type of starter you’re perpetually trying to upgrade?
That’s it Crunchy… He’s the backup 1B, the kind most teams want, GG caliber glove and young that has hit fair before and Boston is the kind of team that can afford to give him 3M. it makes no sense to trade him and keep Lowell as an injury risk, with Beltre possible being a injury risk also. Boston is better off waiting until ST and moving Lowell + part/most of his salary then.
Eh seems like an odd move for a win now team, if the money saved on this goes towards a bigger upgrade at DH then I understand it but why not just shell out the extra couple million and get Overbay who is better in every offensive category, I understand Kotchman has better defense but it’s first base, i’d sacrifice the minor difference in defense at first bag.
Overbay is under contract with the Blue Jays. The M’s can’t just “shell out” an “extra couple million” and “get Overbay.”
Also, I think Jack Z probably would have preferred Overbay to Kotch, but my guess is the Bluie Jays were asking for a decent prospect in return for Overbay, whereas the Sox are probably just trying to get rid of Kotchman (who will likely make $4M this year after arbitration). Jack Z probably figured Kotch at $4M (and no decent prospects lost) was better than Overbay at $7M (his 2010 salary) (and some decent prospect(s) lost).
Yes I understand this, the idea behind the extra couple million was that I believe Lyle could be had for salary relief, i’m a jays fan, i’m aware he isn’t a free agent.
The grey area being that no one knows what Anthopoulos is looking for in return for Lyle, definitely true. I just don’t really believe it would take much more than 80% salary relief to acquire him.
Cant see why the M’s would want him as anything more then a backup. Also don’t see Jack Z. giving up anything of value for a guy who barely gets on base and has no power at all. He plays above-average defense but his career 743 OPS is what you expect out of a good 4th outfielder not a starting 1st baseman on a contending team
and I at least hope that Theo won’t give UP kotchman for anything less than a decent prospect…which means this trade won’t happen. (I hope)
You’re joking, right?
no indeed not. I don’t mean like a superstar prospect, but someone who isn’t bad. Kotchman showed he has potential in 2007; all his other bad seasons have been because of injury or moving around. Obviously he could just stay bad as well, but he’s young enough that he might just not have been given the chance to prove himself. I was getting kind of hopeful about the possibility of him playing 1st for us; he has the potential to be good, I think. Plus, when it would make more sense for the Sox to avoid the tax by trading Lowell, I really just don’t want this to happen. Lowrie+Kotchman = very strong backup IF for the Sox, and Lowell will end up being dead weight. We can trade Lowell as late as Spring Training, I don’t know why they’d want to suddenly unload Kotchman, unless M’s are offering something good, or they have another trick up their sleeve.
Kotchman isn’t worth anything more than a D grade prospect.
I’m thinking the return for the Sox has to be about equal to what the Red Sox would have earned in draft picks for losing Laroche, a type B free agent. (Laroche was flipped for Kotchman at the deadline). Otherwise, the Sox made a mistake in that deal.
If they offered and he decline they would have received a supp pick between the 1st and 2nd round in return, no way they get that type of prospect for Kotchman.
You cant say Sox made a mistake in that deal, LaRoche could have accepted arb and made 10m, think he was at 7-8 last year.
The M’s don’t give a crap what the Sox would have gotten in draft picks for losing laRoche. And yes, the Sox made a mistake in that deal.
Boo.. cough up the money and pay Laroche damnit.
Ya I really don’t like this move for the M’s. This was the one position they had a hole where they could put some power at especially since Bradley’s power will drop at SafeCo. Brayan was really the perfect fit as a LH pull power hitter, I really don’t think LaRoche would’ve thrived in Seattle since he’s not a pull hitter which makes it very difficult to hit them out there. I love what the M’s have done so far and I think they’re going in the right direction modeling after the 80’s Cardinals w/ Whitey ball but I think they need one big bat in that lineup to take the division from the Angels. Now if their reasoning for getting Kotchman is to save money to lock up King Felix and/or Lee then that’s what they have to do. I can’t wait to watch the M’s play the Red Sox this year it willl be difficult to watch as a Red Sox fan because they are gonna run all over them. That should be other teams in the AL west first priority right now getting a catcher w/ a gun
Maybe Jack Z is expecting his career .303/.354/.408 at Safeco Field to continue
The M’s are toast if they can’t hit for power. It might work in the NL. What’s with them collecting other teams rejects?
1. Ichiro rf
2. Figgins 3b
3. Gutierrez cf
4. Lopez 2b
5. Bradley lf
6. Griffey jr. dh
7. Kotchman 1b
8. Wilson ss
9. Moore c
King Felix and Cliff Lee for one year. They’re gonna have to pitch like Koufax and Drysdale. Lee doesn’t want to be there. Bradley couldn’t play for Pinella, he’ll shred Wakamatsu. This is a disaster waiting to happen. The Angels and Rangers don’t have to do anything.
The Mariners and Braves are going to be in a lot of low scoring games with their offenses.
In spite of your name tag, you’re not much of a Mr. Baseball, are you?
I know a far sight more about the nature of ballplayers than you must. Your snippy little post proves it.
I’m not sure how my comment proves anything, other than that I don’t think you’re making any sense with your claims:
a) Ms are toast without power
b) Bradley will “shred” Wakamatsu
c) Ms have picked up everyone’s rejects
d) Lee doesn’t want to be there
e) Angels don’t have to do anything (what does that even mean?)
and just about everything else you said in previous posts on this particular thread.
I respectfully disagree…I think that now that they absolutely have the best defense in the league and the best 1-2 in their starting rotation in the AL if not all of baseball, they are going to do well. Remember that pitching and defense win championships and although I am not saying that they do not need hitting…i am just saying they have enough solid hitters in ichiro, figgins, bradley, gutierrez, and now kotchman that their offense will be ok.
all you guys that think the red sox are going after Gonzalez & Cabrera (Miguel, not Everith), where would we put him? 1B is manned by Youkilis & no one is moving Youk to the bench! 3B is now (unfortunately) covered by Beltre, where would Gonzalez fit it? If Papi & Lowell both get injured at the same time then i could see them going after him for DH, but that’s it
Ortiz, Lowell (whether before or after the season), and almost certainly Beltre are gone after this season. There would be absolutely nothing stopping Theo from acquiring Gonzalez, Cabrera, etc. if the opportunity arose. It would be the best possible option to have a superstar-style bat. Someone would be benched, whether it be Ortiz or Beltre, or Beltre becomes a defensive replacement for Youk. The Beltre deal is NOT stopping Epstein from aggressively pursuing these types of corner infielders.
Role player? Langerhans? Hall?
Hall makes too much, unless Mariners are paying a lot of the money which I doubt, but we shall see.
Probably Langerhans, Hannahan, Bryan LaHair orChris Burke
Milwaukee is paying 7.15 million of the 8.5 million owed to Bill Hall. He would be a very good fit with the Red Sox as a super utility bench player. He hits lefties fairly well, and has played 2nd, SS, 3rd, and all 3 OF positions in the majors. Some of which (2nd and the corner OF spots) are small sample sizes, but he appears capable of handling all of them, while playing some at an above average level. It is tough to say if he can still handle all these positions at the level he played them a few years ago, but it is worth a shot from the Sox point of view.
Of course that versatility and cheap contract is also valuable to the Ms, so unless the minor leaguer is throw in, I don’t think he will be coming to the Sox.
Really, I knew they were paying some, but not that much. That is great. I’d love to have Hall especially for that price.
Cot’s site says that the Brewers are paying “as much as” 7.15M of his 2010 salary, so just *MAYBE* it’s not as bad as could be. Bad thing? It knocks Lowrie back to AAA and maybe out of the picture altogether. Lowrie deserved his chance, since he will be 26 this season and Hall, at 31 looks like nothing but a 1 year rental with his 2011 9.25M option certain to be declined.
maybe they flip Kotchman to Jays for Overbay?
either way, i think this is a better move for this season than locking in with LaRoche.
this for sure gives the M’s the D that everyone has been saying. the reward is that Casey at the bat can resemble — and then proceed to progress from — the potential he had with the Angels. Risk is that he proves to be a decent complementary hitter in a deep lineup, but not a guys that fills a key run-driving need.
wow they gave up a major leaguer and a prospect fpr him
Great defense but the M’s really need a power bat..
I believe it’s more the Padres that are holding up talks with any team right now, they want to see how they do the first half of the season, which is entirely understandable, given that they could quite possibly be competitive in the NL West, particularly with the Dodgers in disarray.
I also think it’s far more likely that Ortiz would get benched, unless he was somehow on a real tear (though I’m fairly confident those days are behind him) if the Red Sox acquired Gonzalez and either Youkilis or Gonzalez would DH, in order to keep the defense up, if Theo is that concerned with it, now that the team has finally announced Ellsbury being moved to left as well…
Good points. Hehe, makes me hope the Padres compete this year then, much less likely that the M’s or someone would sneak in and nab AGon at the deadline! For some reason I see Boston more likely getting him next winter instead of the deadline, unless they really need him then. It would cause a lot of complications, although as you said benching Ortiz would make most sense.
I really like Theo being this aggressive!
Strange acquistion. The M’s offense was already pretty weak & this makes it even weaker.
I sure hope the starting pitchers & bullpen are ready to roll this season.
No offense Mariner fans, but I would hope that Aardsma retains his control of the strike zone. I liked Aardsma and always did, also didn’t like it when they shipped him to the M’s for Fabian Williamson, but the guy has had serious control issues for his entire ML and MLB career, except for 2/3 of last season and that should give anyone a severe scare.
>First of all, Adrian Gonzalez is not the end all and be all. He will be a free agent in 2011, we can go after him then or at the next winter when his value will be less. The Padres aren’t dealing him right now. He is cheap, young and a hometown hero. He would be a great fit in Boston however, his benefit would outweigh his cost. You do realize we would be dealing all of our future as well as some of our present in Buchholz and possibly Ellsbury to acquire him. For just seasons. The Red Sox as they are built can win the Wild Card easily and will challenge for the AL East. Our pitching and defense on paper is ridiculous. There is no reason to go after Gonzalez now.
Theo is beeing very aggressive this year, huh? On paper, the Sox look pretty good. A lot of questions still with Drew, Ortiz and Lowell, but nice aggresive moved being made.
Drew’s health is a question mark, but his offense remains pretty solid, so I wouldn’t really consider him a problem. Ortiz and Lowell though are still two huge questions.
ill bet you the player that gives boston versatility is bill hall…
It is Bill Hall. I don’t mind having Bill Hall chilling on the bench. Guy can do it all pretty much.
By “all”, do you mean strike out and ground to second on the level of a replacment player?
“replacement player”
Those are the important words: that’s exactly who he’ll be.
I meant more towards his ability to play multiple positions. Sure, his last year was terrible and year before that was not too much better but maybe the hitting coach will work with him a little. No way you get another 35 HR 85 RBI season out of him (PEDs perhaps? Hopefully not) but I mean, off the bench at least he has a little pop. We’ll see.
I have liked EVERY move Jack Z has made this offseason, his latest two. I think he got a little caught up in his “brilliance” and tried to make even more moves to show it. He basically gave away Brandon Morrow for practically nothing Morrow is still extremely talented. And this move is great if all the give up is Bill Hall. they can actually use Kotchman unlike Hall. but if they give up more, it would have been better for them to put up more of a fight with the Yankees for Nick Johnson, signed O-Dog, and used Jose Lopez as trade bait for a 3rd or 4th starter/Grade B prospects. they defense would be more improved, and better OBP.
I would agree that Jack Z has made good moves all around the baord. The only one I question is the trading of Morrow, he has great potential and they got little in return, but I digress. This is another good move by the Zed. He gets a great defnsive first baseman who can give hit for a decent average and give you some pop, though not as much as Branyan. I think he would have rather had Branyan but Kotchman is a good plan B. I like the Sox getting Hall as well. He is inconsistent, biut is a great super utility guy who can play anywhere and can provide good value wherever he plays form the bench.
Branyan had a career year, if I were a Mariners fan I’d be far more comfortable with Kotchman. Plays very good D and has an underrated (not great, but serviceable, at least) bat.
thank you! someone else who thinks his bat is underrated!
For a future GM you don’t know squat. Morrow was not given away. In return we received Brandon League and a minor leaguer. If you think that wasn’t fair value, perhaps you think too highly of Morrow.
Dude, I think you are being a little disrespectful to League as a player. This guy throws smoke and it moves. He is one of few P’s in the bigs that has a sinker in the low 90’s. Yes he can be erratic at times, what late inning guy isn’t once in a while If League is used as a 1 inning guy, set up in 8th or even close if Aards has issues, he will better better on far more nights that he isn’t. Give him a chance before you declare they gave Morrow away for nothing!I hope the Jays can fix what the M’s did to this kids head and arm. With proper coaching and care for his arm, the Jays may have a pretty good #3 for a lot of years! Hell, maybe even a #2! (fingers crossed).But alas, it could be nothing more than a long reliever or sorta closer.That’s the beauty of the game and prospects! You never know!
K Man, good luck with Morrow. It’s fun to wish and dream… we know… but this guy has no control and he never has.
I’d expect Lowrie and Hall to fight for the super utility role in Spring Training.
The reason that the Padres are holding onto Gonzalez is their is more leverage in a midseason situation. They are going to rape some teams farm system come summer.
Wait. Wait. Wait.
Bill Hall is earning 7m?!
Doesn’t sound good to the Sox then…Unless of course most of that is eaten by the M’s.
Ah. Which I see now it could be.
I actually think the Brewers are still paying some of his deal, but Hall is making 8.4 mil and has a .5 mill buyout for next year
***Sorry I didnt realize that info was included above in the update
Yea, I’m pretty sure Brewers are paying most of it.
Lol, once I read the post suggesting we would get a “Major league role player” I went to look at Seattle’s roster thinking “who in the hell would that be?” Once I saw the name Bill Hall I said, hmmm…probably him or Jack Hannahan.
Figured it wold be Hall. This makes a lot more sense now. Mariners will get Kotchman basically for free. Still would be nice to great Branyan.
it wont be for free. they will be paying a heavy majority of halls contract my guess.. 4-5 million worth
The Mariners already got the money for Halls cntract from the Brewers
Haven’t you dolts figured out yet that the Red Sox aren’t going to be getting Adrian Gonzalez?Signing Beltre for $9 million to put him on the bench for Gonzalez wasn’t “pure dumb” for two reasons:1) He isn’t going to be on the bench, because, if you haven’t noticed, the Red Sox obviously aren’t going to be able to strike a deal with the Padres for Gonzalez (who, San Diego has absolutely NO incentive to move, by the way, seeing as how he is not only from San Diego, but he is about the only Padre drawing in fans anymore…why on Earth would a rookie GM want to make his first order of business trading the hometown fan favorite? He’s not going anywhere until at least July, and even then, it probably won’t be the Red Sox. (2) So with that said (although most of you still probably won’t get that it won’t happen), would you rather pay Lowell $12 million to hobble around at third base with a bum hip and try to replicate his past few seasons at the plate after a torn thumb ligament, holding out with the pipe dream of getting Gonzalez, or pay Beltre $9 million to play the best defensive third base in the league from a possible .270-25-95 hitter? If you look at it from a perspective of what you’re paying for what you’ll get, Beltre is a bargain. He will play far better defense (the main reason he was signed in the first place), and given Lowell’s recent injuries, it’s not too absurd to expect similar or better offensive output as well. All for three million less. “Dumb dumb dumb” huh? Maybe if you don’t get the concept of numbers.On another note, if you look at WAR numbers last year for all the players added and lost by both Boston and New York this winter and reflecting that accordingly on their 2009 records, just for pure speculation (not necessarily in the least bit accurate seeing as how injuries, progression, and regression aren’t accounted for), the Red Sox had roughly four wins less than New York before the Beltre signing. Guess who figures to be a ~4 WAR player next year? Factor in Bill Hall somewhere between ~0 and ~1, add in that the Sox will enjoy a full year of Victor Martinez as opposed to a mere two months, probable progression/improvement from Ellsbury, Lester, Bard, Matsuzaka, Drew, Delcarmen (although Manny D improving is the biggest longshot of this list), and the Red Sox can very easily win the division next year. The Yankees may have added Granderson, but don’t forget they lost both Damon and Matsui to go along with that.
I think the Beltre signing indicates that the Red Sox don’t feel that they can make the deal they want for AGon in the short term (e.g. before the trade deadline or, more likely, next winter). If they can sign AGon at the trade deadline, the Sox will figure out a 1B-3B-DH(?) platoon that will get them to the end of the year. Beltre will opt out of his 2nd year and the 2011 Sox will feature AGon at 1B, Youk at 3B, VMart at C or DH. I’m willing to wait a half season or so!
I agree. I think if there was anything indicating to Theo he would be able to acquire Gonzalez for a reasonable price, he would have pulled the trigger already. But if they are major players for Gonzalez come July, I don’t think there will be much “figuring out” involved between the on-paper mess it would create, because if I had to guess now I would say one of Beltre/Youkilis/Ortiz would be struggling mightily if the Sox were to be serious players for AGonz at the deadline.
Wow Mr Baseball i can tell you never have watched the Mariners play. First of all Wakamatsu would NEEEEEEEEVER LET ANYBODY WALK ALL OVER HIM!!!!! And second the Angels have got a lot worse and the Mariners have got a lot better, Texas could do anything. And none of those players will be considered rejects after this season just watch. Bradely is the only “reject” in that lineup anyway. And i really doubt Guiterrez is gonna bat 3rd with Lopez and Bradely in the lineup i say 6th.
I keep reading these posts from everyone on both sides and EVERYONE seems to forget the one key thing in this deal. Casey Kotchman is A-W-F-U-L. I just simply can’t imagine that Jack Z lost his marbles overnight but I guess someone may have compromising pictures of him or something. If he trades ANY prospect AND Bill Hall or anyone else besides the towel boy then he is going to regret every minute of it. As a lifelong M’s fan this is the most unbelieveable thing I’ve witnessed. We were one position (first base) away from realistically contending with the Angels and Rangers this year (forget about ALCS and World Series please) and we get Casey “F’ing” Kotchman! Wow…I thought we had some $$$ to play with but apparently the team is flat broke and getting desperate. I have to keep pinching myself to see if I’m having a nightmare but it keeps saying “Mariners Set To Aquire Casey Kotchman” at the top of my computer screen! M’s fans get ready for an 80 win season! You heard it here first!
So another 1b would add ten wins? Kotchman isn’t great, but he’s better than Hall! M’s can still get a decent Lf/1b or Dh. The whole season didn’t just implode because of the loss of Bill Hall.
Nobody said it did because of Bill Hall. It did because we had two major needs after all of the recent moves and those were starting pitching and a first baseman that can hit. I don’t care if it was Bill Hall or Monte Hall…Casey Kotchman is NOT a starting forst baseman in the major leagues. There’s a guy named Bobby Cox down in ATL that has some experience in this game and you can ask him how the great Kotchman experiment as a starter worked out if you don’t believe me.
“M’s fans get ready for an 80 win season! You heard it here first!” By it do you mean a terrible prediciton that someone wth no baseball knoweledge will make? Because that rant you just spouted off makes no sense. In 2008, his last season as a full starter (because he didn’t start after he was taded to the Sox), he hit .272 with 14 HR’s, which is NOT A-W-F-U-L at all. Considering he is also a great defensive first baseman, he becomes even better. They can still resign someone like Branyan to DH, who can provide some good pop in the lineup. And what first baseman is out there that they could get that’s so much better than Kotchman? He’s just as good if not better than any other free agent on the market. What makes the least sense to me is you’re reasoning for an 80 win Mariner season. Last year they won 85 games, and they’ve added Lee, Figgins, and Bradely, and with the regression of the Angels, they would be a 90-95 win team. How does adding Kotchman make them lose 10-15 wins, he’s not good or bad enough to do that. You’re reasoning makes no sense.
Just calling it like I see it…I am a Braves season ticket holder and watching this guy EASILY cost the Braves several wins this past year was truly bad. The Braves would consistently be down by 1 with runners on 1st and 2nd in the bottom of the 8th and who would walk to the plate and hit into the inning ending DP…yep you guessed it…the great Casey Kotchman. Now if you take those 5 wins (bare minimum) I personally saw him yank from the Braves victory column and add into the 5 wins that I personally saw LaRoche add with some clutch hitting down the stretch…yes…I see a difference of 10 runs. Now I do agree that when you guys look at numbers and didn’t actually see LaRoche and/or Kotchman play a single inning last year I can see why you think this is a good deal. I’m the first to admit that. Stats are fabulous but I really like watching the game of baseball and observing players in action. Casey is the slowest player I’ve seen in a baseball uniform since Cecil Fielder, which is strange for a club that wants to compete on speed, defense and OBP. I’ll Casey some props for fine glove work and deserves to be on a big league team as a late inning defenseive replacement (just like the Sox used him for) but as the starter in one of the few positions you REALLY need to provide some offense for…I just don’t like it one bit. On June 1st when he’s batting .225 with one homer and 17 RBIs I can’t wait to see what you guys are saying on here!
You do realize that they gave up Bill Hall, right… If they dont like what they see from Kotchman during ST then you cut him. Simple as that. It doesnt mean that the Mariners wont aquire another 1B. This is a good move because it gives them more options. Another good move by Z giving the Mariners more depth.
Kotchman and Hall are both awful. It’s a meaningless trade. The Sons of Sam Horn are acting like this is a big deal though. They are comparing WARs of each player.
Bill Hall is a good pickup for the Red Sox. He plays above average defense at multiple positions and can hit decently against left handed pitching. Acquiring him allows Boston to give JD Drew days off against tough lefties in order to keep him fresh and minimize the risk of him getting injured.
The more and more I think about this deal the more I hate it for the M’s. Not only was Brayan and also Delgado much better options. People forget Delgado has hit 30+ HR’s in 10 of the 12past seasons and one year (last year) was due to injury and the other he still hit 25, he is one year removed from 38 Hr’s. And the funniest part about it is ya Bill Hall had a bad year last year but he has a higher upside than Kotchman. With Kotchman as the M’s everyday firstbasemen it really just kills their chances of going anywhere this year and just wastes all the money they spent in other area’s and a great offseason is wasted. I mean Ryan Garko would’ve been a better option and that’s horrible. I’m really disappointed in Jacky Z right now trading Morrow was a questionable move but there is no question about this. If Kotchman is the M’s everyday player this year then the M’s have zero chance going to the playoffs and it’s really disappointing to waste a year of having both Cliff Lee and King Felix
Please let the go through.
I still believe Kotchman is going to have a big year someday, he has such a good eye at the plate. It’s possible this trade will have great value for the Mariners. But it is a gamble since he’s never been consistent.
i think if the m’s can find a good 5 hole pitcher and a power bat, they take the AL west… and perhaps the pennant. Mariners pitching seems comparable to yankee pitching right now.
Another good one. Jack Z is unstoppable. Signing Gutz to an extension? Even better. The only thing they need now is to sign Branyan to DH. Then they will be great. I’d expect in the M’s lineup is going to have a breakout year.
I like this move for the M’s. Z has definitely put defense first and they gave up little; the Red Sox certainly don’t have much leverage.As for the Sox, they have certainly shown how many moving parts make up a roster.
I think it was a win-win for the M’s and the Red Sox. The Sox cleared space at 1B and on the bench for a right handed hitter with pop (potentially) and lowered their payroll for luxury tax purposes and the M’s got a young, decent 1B with potential for free (thanks Brewers).
In fact, the deal practically paid for the Sox acquisition of Beltre:
(fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/…)
Good deal all around.
I think it was a win-win for the M’s and the Red Sox. The Sox cleared space at 1B and on the bench for a right handed hitter with pop (potentially) and lowered their payroll for luxury tax purposes and the M’s got a young, decent 1B with potential for free (thanks Brewers).
In fact, the deal practically paid for the Sox acquisition of Beltre:
(fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/…)
Good deal all around.
I dont like this deal very much. But I think we could live with Kotchman until midseason, trade him for a decent prospect, and include the prospect in an Adrian Gonzalez deal. Im trusting Jack Z like I did with the JJ Putz deal, but it just dosn’t make sense for me. But I do like unloading Bill Hall as we already have 3 Left fielders and 2 3rd basemen. Overall, I think the Sox when this deal. When are the M’s ever going to add any power? Wasn’t that our number 1 priority coming into this offseason? Our only other option for power is to move Lopez and a couple other guys for a 3B, or 2B.
Uhh… if the Red Sox couldn’t get a decent prospect for Kotchman, why would the M’s be able to get anything decent for him in July, or anything even remotely tradeable for Adrian Gonzalez?
To the Ms fans who are concerned with adding power: respectfully, I ask you why power matters so much. I don’t care if we win by slapping singles and playing good defense or by putting the ball over the fence. At the end of the day, Kotchman is worth a full win more than Bill Hall, probably more, and that means that the Ms got one win better as a team–a win we’ll surely need with the Angels and Rangers in our division.
My first thought at this is that maybe Z is looking for a cheap temporary option at the moment for 1st base but is also putting together a trade package at the deadline for someone like Adrian Gonzalez.. I would doubt red sox would be the front runners to get Gonzo now since they just signed beltre..
My second take at this trade would be that Z is putting something together right now for a trade this off season .. either way i see Kotchman as a temporary piece only leading to a bigger deal..
what do you guys think about mariners making a run at gonzo now?
Of course it would be nice to get Gonzo, but at this point, what would we give up? We have already given up some good young talent, and a trade that big at this point potentially could deplete our stock of good young talent. I’d say wait til the All-Star Break.
Can the Ms afford to give up more top prospects after making the deal for Cliff Lee?
Don’t think they have much more top prospects, if any
They don’t have many, if any, top prospects
The Mariners gave up 3 AA prospects who aren’t that highly touted for Cliff Lee. The Mariners still have several other highly regarded prospects in their farm. Ackley, Truinfel, Saunders, James Jones and so on.
The Mariners gave up 3 AA prospects who aren’t that highly touted for Cliff Lee. The Mariners still have several other highly regarded prospects in their farm. Ackley, Truinfel, Saunders, James Jones and so on.
I disagree with the assertion that the Sox are now out of the running for AGon… far from it. The Sox have positioned themselves perfectly to land him when Hoyer is ready to deal:
(1) The Sox have not shed a single top prospect this off-season (including MLB playing Buchholz)
(2) Outside of Lackey, they haven’t signed a single LT contract; Beltre is one and done leaving 3B open for Youklis in 2011
(3) $55M in salary comes off their books in 2011, including DH, Ortiz, which opens another spot for a hitter.
I think the Sox are in the BEST position to deal or AGon.
If Boston has a game on Mother’s Day, I personally guarantee Billy Hall goes 3-3 with a Walk-off. Other than that, this move seems somewhat lateral to me. You give up the POSSIBILITY of Billy playing like he did early for the Brewers offensively, in trade for the better Glove work at 1st base. Seems like a wash, granted since the Brewers are paying for Billy’s contract, they got Kotch for free… Financially this is an upgrade… I still say the Mariners bring in another good bat, and that will probably be another Ex Brewer, Russel Branyan.
hmmm I’m glad we didn’t give up a decent prospect. Is this guy like a D or C prospect?
this isnt important is it?
so Kotchman okay Kotchman not Morales
so Kotchman okay Kotchman not Morales
Not that a lower level prospect is a big deal in most cases, but you really have to wonder why Boston is looking at adding another catcher of all positions, unless they actually see something in this Hassiel Jimenez. Boston is loaded at Catcher, of all positions the most heavily at positional prospects from Rookie ball up with serious logjams and that is counting from the last draft with with super defensive specialist Michael Thomas, 2008 draft picks Tim Federowicz adn Ryan Lavarnway that quickly vaulted their way to the top 20 of the Sox prospects, with Lavarnway the Sox ML offensive player of the year, Luis Exposito, the probable catcher of the future in the long run set to begin at AA. Mark Wagner, who had a breakout year at AA, struggled at AAA after his promotion, but still has a chance and defensive specialist Dusty Brown still at AAA?
They still have another talented defensive minded PR catcher drafted #9 in 2008 in Christian Vazquez that they drafted and should be coming to the states this year and 700K bonus baby Oscar Perez just signed from Venezuela a tad over 1 year ago that should be ready to play Rookie ball.
Why add another catcher to that most over load of positions, instead of a 3B is just weird, the only other positions they have an abundance of is SS and pitcher.
Not that a lower level prospect is a big deal in most cases, but you really have to wonder why Boston is looking at adding another catcher of all positions, unless they actually see something in this Hassiel Jimenez. Boston is loaded at Catcher, of all positions the most heavily at positional prospects from Rookie ball up with serious logjams and that is counting from the last draft with with super defensive specialist Michael Thomas, 2008 draft picks Tim Federowicz adn Ryan Lavarnway that quickly vaulted their way to the top 20 of the Sox prospects, with Lavarnway the Sox ML offensive player of the year, Luis Exposito, the probable catcher of the future in the long run set to begin at AA. Mark Wagner, who had a breakout year at AA, struggled at AAA after his promotion, but still has a chance and defensive specialist Dusty Brown still at AAA?
They still have another talented defensive minded PR catcher drafted #9 in 2008 in Christian Vazquez that they drafted and should be coming to the states this year and 700K bonus baby Oscar Perez just signed from Venezuela a tad over 1 year ago that should be ready to play Rookie ball.
Why add another catcher to that most over load of positions, instead of a 3B is just weird, the only other positions they have an abundance of is SS and pitcher.
Well I like this deal. Branyan won’t produce like he did. It was a fluke. Kotchman can play defense and that’s what we want. Hopefully we can get rid of Jose Lopez now and find a LF who will do a one year deal and help Saunders develop. Bradley will be playing DH most the year anyways.
Just want to say, I love the deal! I think Mr. Z has another move in place once this deal becomes official.
Not a bad move for the Sox. This move I think had a lot to do with respect for Kotch. He’s wayyyy too good to be a backup on the Sox. He would never live up to his potential as a backup and he’s a class act and a great ballplayer who’s bat could well come around still, though Safeco will be a tough park for him. Lets see how it goes. Best of luck to Kotchman and I thoroughly enjoyed having him as a Boston Red Sox.
WOW THE MARINERS ARE MAJKING MOVES LEFT AND RIGHT
WOW THE MARINERS ARE MAJKING MOVES LEFT AND RIGHT
Not a sexy move to say the least. But its not as bad some people are making it out to be. Kotchman still has a shot to be the player he was in 2007 and is only 26. If he can do that while playing great defense at first, its a *great* move by Zduriencik. Especially since Hall is just a UTIL guy that forgot how to hit.
Kotchman may not be a star but its a tremendous value trade. Typical Jacky-Z move. This one smells a lot like the Gutierrez acquisition of last year.
I like it. Good for the Ms.
It’s about time the Ms seriously start building teams around their ballpark (e.g. the Mets have to learn this and might have to struggle a few years to get it). This team is built on pitching, defense, and slap the ball around and run. I happen to like that kind of ball. They do need more pop though. Though it’s intriguing. In that ballpark I think any hope of Kotchman having a mid-career power spurt is gone though.