TODAY: The Pirates officially announced Pham’s deal, and moved right-hander Dauri Moreta to the 60-day injured list in the corresponding move. Moreta underwent a UCL surgery in March 2024 and will miss at least the first two months of the season rehabbing.
FEBRUARY 6: The Pirates and outfielder Tommy Pham are in agreement on a one-year, $4MM contract, per Ken Rosenthal and Katie Woo of The Athletic. Alex Stumpf of MLB.com adds, slightly more specifically, that Pham is guaranteed $4.025MM. The Vayner client can earn an additional $250K via incentives. Pittsburgh has a full 40-man roster already and will need to make a corresponding transaction to accommodate their latest signing.
Pham, 37 next month, split the 2024 season between the White Sox, Royals and Cardinals (his second stint with the team that originally drafted him). He’s suited up for nine teams in his 11-year big league career, including seven teams in the past three years alone, as he’s settled into a journeyman role player signing a series of affordable one-year deals that frequently render him a trade chip. The Pirates make an even ten teams as Pham heads into his 12th big league season.
Pham hit well for the White Sox last season, slashing .266/.330/.380 in 297 plate appearances before heading to the Cards as part of the three-team Tommy Edman/Erick Fedde/Michael Kopech swap between the Sox, Cardinals and Dodgers. His return to St. Louis sparked an immediate feel-good moment, as Pham belted a pinch-hit grand slam in his first plate appearance wearing Cardinal red since 2018. He followed that up with three multi-hit performances in his next four games and went on to pop his second Cardinals homer just a few days later. Through eight games back with his original club, he posted a Herculean .379/.400/.759 slash and looked to be just the jolt the lineup had needed.
The good vibes didn’t last, however. Pham fell into a deep slump that saw him go 3-for-39 as the Cardinals faded from contention. He was placed on waivers in late August and claimed by the Royals, who plugged Pham in frequently as they pushed toward their eventual postseason berth. He didn’t hit well in Kansas City overall but had a few big hits, including a three-run homer against the division-leading Guardians that proved to be a game winner. Overall, he finished out the season at .248/.305/.368 in 478 plate appearances.
Over the past four seasons, Pham has produced offense almost exactly in line with the league average. He’s a .242/.322/.391 hitter (98 wRC+) with 57 home runs, 94 doubles, nine triples, 51 steals, a 10.1% walk rate and a 23.7% strikeout rate in that stretch. He’s been a bit better against lefties (.238/.328/.413) than righties (.243/.319/.383) but has generally held his own in the batter’s box regardless of opponents’ handedness. He did see a notable dip in batted-ball quality (albeit with still-strong marks in exit velocity and hard-hit rate) as well as a notable dip in walk rate (down to 7.3%).
Results-wise, Pham’s 2024 output doesn’t look all that different from former Pirate Connor Joe, whom the Bucs non-tendered earlier this winter. He’d been projected for a $3.2MM salary. Like Pham, Joe is a righty-hitting corner bat who’s provided almost exactly average offense in recent years. He’s slashed .238/.330/.396 in 888 plate appearances from 2023-24. Pham provides more speed and a more natural outfield glove (Joe split his time between first base and the outfield corners.) Pham does have far better quality of contact, so perhaps that made the Pirates a bit more bullish on his outlook than the comparably priced Joe, but it’s nonetheless quite arguable that this is a lateral move.
With the Bucs, Pham can be expected to play frequently in a corner, perhaps forming a de facto platoon with lefty-hitting Joshua Palacios or Jack Suwinski. Both struggled against lefties in 2024, with Suwinski also struggling so much versus righties that he was optioned to Triple-A at multiple points. Given that neither is established as a consistent big league presence, it’s possible that Pham simply emerges as a regular alongside Bryan Reynolds and center fielder Oneil Cruz.
The Pham signing isn’t especially exciting but is emblematic of the Pirates’ free agent approach under owner Bob Nutting, who is staunchly against taking virtually any risk on the open market. The Pirates have never given a free agent more than Francisco Liriano’s three-year, $39MM deal more than a decade ago. Russell Martin’s two-year, $17MM pact (also more than a decade ago) is the largest free agent position-player signing the team has issued.
Under general manager Ben Cherington’s watch, the Pirates have never signed a free agent to a multi-year deal. Aroldis Chapman’s $10.75MM pact last winter is both the largest signing for Cherington and the lone time Nutting has authorize an eight-figure free agent salary in the current front office’s tenure. The Bucs have spent more on extensions for Bryan Reynolds (seven years, $100MM in new money) and Mitch Keller (four years, $71.6MM in new money) but there has been no appetite for any meaningful risk when it comes to open-market spending.
On paper anyhow, the Pirates looked well positioned to dip into a solid crop of free agent first basemen and/or corner outfield bats as they looked to beef up a lineup that generally lacked punch in 2024. They’ve instead brought in a new first baseman via trade (Spencer Horwitz) and signed veteran role players Pham, Adam Frazier and Andrew McCutchen, with short-term deals to match on the pitching side (Tim Mayza, Caleb Ferguson). The Pirates’ hope seems to be that a young rotation anchored by Paul Skenes, Jared Jones and Keller can make further strides in 2024, with rebounds and/or breakouts from Horwitz, Cruz, Suwinski, Nick Gonzales and other young bats (Henry Davis, Endy Rodriguez, Billy Cook) can spur a more productive offense.
That’s a big bet to make, when the first full season of Skenes/Jones dovetails with the Cardinals taking a step back and the Brewers seemingly unable to add to their payroll whatsoever this winter. The Pham signing pushes Pittsburgh’s payroll to $83MM, per RosterResource, a few million shy of last year’s $87MM mark. The Pirates haven’t run a $90MM payroll since 2017.
Just cherrington doing nuttings bidding. His fa history is horrid and this ain’t any better.
he posted a Herculean .379/.400/.759
Sorry they don’t do heavy lifting like Tommy Pham. He’ll still hit lefties, but don’t get excited when he’s taking an AB against a RHP
Jack Suwinski will bat or excuse me, strike out against righties
Somewhere, Henry Davis is renewing his frequent traveler pass for the Indy Shuttle
Tommy Phams days of being Herculean on Cherington’s farm flips is beyond foolish and down right laughable. It’s like they don’t want to go forward, but refuse to go backwards either.
Cheringtons tenure to me can be defined at best today as stuck vs success or failure. I like what’s going on below the mlb roster, but you’ve got to piss or get off the pot and these last two off seasons are very telling.
And now this is back to back seasons in a very weak nl central that the pirates narrative is we’re gonna try and that’s it over breaking the glass on very realistic chances to not only compete but take the division outright in consecutive seasons.
The bucs aren’t knocking the door down, but if the moves on the board weren’t played by Cherrington hand the way they have been this could be a legitimate playoff team despite its overwhelming flaws across the board.
All they needed to do was bring in a couple of affordable, mid range (salary wise) bats
They refused.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Not even a move for Nutting. Just a gm who doesn’t know enough about baseball. Could have signed Tauchman and got same or better production for half the $. For 2m more Grichuk who is actually a needle mover.
I’m much rather have tauchman too personally. Idk about grichuk. He can stay blocking jones as long as he thinks he can. That’s an arizona problem.
not that I was ever a fan of Connor Joe but they could have signed him for a million less than Pham and is 5 years younger
Ben fits right in with Shelton who also doesn’t seem to know enough about baseball
Don’t worry. Tauchman will be flipped at the deadline so there’s always a chance he’ll land in Pittsburgh.
Might have got Joe on Minor league deal or 1m. Pham is better than him maybe.
Pittsburgh woukd easily be able to get Tauchman. Because like in free agency the smarter teams will go after impact players.
100 percent agree. And Joe could play some 1B if needed. This shows even more that there is zero confidence in Henry Davis who tried to play RF. The buccos need to trade Davis while they can for anything before he ends up being a DFA total bust in a few years.
I doubt Ben would DFA Davis considering he was a #1 draft pick
It would be a complete embarrassment
But Dream, I agree with you about everything you say regarding the GM. And yeah, the whole front office and managerial staff needs to go
But we will never know the guard rails Cherington works with for signings.
I suspect his hands are tied tight
Nutting is the worst owner in sports. Anywhere. Doesn’t live in the area, isn’t in attendance at games a great deal, doesn’t do interviews. Has no sense of responsibility to fans in this region. They’re marks, nothing more
Doesn’t matter. Frazier + Pham = Grichuk. Ok he really hates Pittsburgh so take a reliever away and go cheaper there.
You have 17 2b and still sign Frazier to a mlb deal? That doesn’t look like I have a strict budget. Chapman for 10.5? These are splurges to me.
They paid Chapman with the money saved because they could not find another decent starter under $10m and when they got Gonzalez and Perez they figured that they had enough starters.
Chapman was a fallback in case Bednar went south.
Which he did.
They found one. They just refused to pay him league minimum and Cherrington struck the market way too soon on his sp choices last off season. All 3 moves/non moves were awful on his part and I stand by it on.
Cherington was working under salary restrictions.
I presume that you mean Skenes up in mid May.
Who are the other two starters that were available for a total of $10M?
Remember who they had to bring up late in the season which are the normal no names that the Pirates use every year because of the lack of starting pitching depth.
Hopefully that changes this year.
You’re using hindsight here as a rationale and it won’t fly
There was no reason to believe Bedmar would ‘go south ‘. Only through his misfortune did the Chapman signing look acceptable. But it was an outrageous waste of money then and still is
He was a luxury that a limited budget team did not need
As you are aware I was happy that they got him in the first place.This guy may could be a HOF some day.He is still making over $10M as a reliever maybe 12-15 years into his ML career.Not bad for what you say is a mediocre pitcher.
I thought that it showed that the Pirates actually would spend the money saved on a starter and try to improve the team.
You and I disagree that good teams have two guys who can pitch in save situations.In that regard they were the ones who were prescient.
Who would you have signed instead of him?
First off, I didn’t say he was mediocre
He’s difficult to watch in a close game as evidenced by what we saw last season
Secondly, most MLB teams that hover around .500 or lower and who have an All Star closer don’t go out and recklessly spend $10M on another closer. Especially when you want people to believe you’re “cash strapped”
It was ridiculous then and remains as such no matter Bednar’s bad season
“We are Phamily”
Nutting spent money?
Yea just enough to get the mlbpa off of him that’s all he’s obligated to do.
What team will he be traded to?
Anyone willing
Adam Frazier and Tommy Pham in the same offseason. Go crazy.
It’s unfortunate that solid players continue to have to wait to be desperate just before spring training.
mlb – And the saddest is JDM, who has been a Boras disciple for years.
This is at least the third time he’s gone a week into February without a contract, the guy will never learn.
@fever
Is that a Boras issue though? Or is that a wrong side of 30, bat only guy who doesn’t hit as much as he used to but still semi-expensive for what he is issue?
I mean, maybe he’s been thrown a $6-8mm offer and Boras told him to hold out for more then sure, but it’s more likely that the few teams that could benefit from his bat would prefer to keep the DH spot open (like SF) or find a cheaper alternative (like TEX did with Burger, or another team will do with Andrew Vaughn).
PS: I laughed out loud at your “taking a stab at Pham” comment.
dis – First time it happened, he had turned 30 and was coming off a stellar 1.066 OPS season in which he played almost 1,000 innings in the outfield. But Boras dragged it on and Dombrowski capitalized, signing JD on February 26th.
JD has actually been quoted as saying he leaves the decisions to Boras, he completely trusts Boras which is a mistake.
I’m glad you got my pun, looks like Riddler didn’t get it. LOL!
@fever
Sure, but he played those 1000 innings of outfield like he was wearing flippers, as Grant Brisbee puts it. So he was hardly anymore of an outfielder then than he does now. And Boras got him $110mm, which is pretty good for a player who, if his bat starts to fade, becomes a liability (see Castellanos, Nick). Who cares if he got it 1 month or 4 months into the off-season?
dis – No question he was below average in the field, but not as bad as you claim.
His -8 DRS was better than 15 OF’ers, I mean you had Cabrera at -20 and you had Span at -27 …. now THOSE are truly awful defensive outfielders.
Regardless, as for your last sentence …. never heard of the term “supply and demand”?
At this late point in the offseason if you’re still a free agent your options become extremely limited. When teams have a strong desire to fill a position, they make a big push in December and finalize by end of January. All you’ve got left now are a limited number of teams that wouldn’t mind a Bregman at a discount but can certainly get by without him.
He has lost his leverage because the Astros already acquired Paredes, the Jays are out because they know Boras was trying to use them as leverage, the Red Sox and Cubs refuse to go longer than 4 years and don’t need him, and the Tigers can certainly get by without him too.
If Bregman/Boras was more reasonable early in the offseason perhaps the Mets, Dodgers and Yankees would have made a push …. but now all of those big spenders are done. That’s what happens when you wait too long, the market can dry up very quickly after the big spenders have made their big purchases already.
Supply and demand, that’s what drives the market. And history has shown free agency in February is like when the lights go on right before the bar closes …. demand is low, so you are stuck getting whatever you can instead of what you really want. I’m sure you get the analogy ;O)
While I generally agree that waiting later in the off-season decreases your demand, you again haven’t pointed out how his loss of leverage was Boras’ doing. At this point, Martinez is nobody’s Plan-A. So the Astros not getting Paredes might mean they target Martinez eventually, but that sort of logic requires a lot of things going poorly for a lot of teams that they are targeting Martinez earlier in the off-season. That said, I would concede that Boras f*Ed up if we learn Martinez got one or more good offer, but he held out for more money or years, but again, given Martinez’s current status, I highly doubt that’s the case.
Also injuries happen later in the off-season. So sure, the available suitors may be awful at the bar, but if once in a while, a pretty dame might come in crying because her boyfriend just broke up with her. Not something I’d hold out for, but definitely possible.
dis – I’ve pulled up this direct quote from JD so many times with others, I should have it memorized. LOL
This is proof JDM leaves all the contract decisions to Boras, in this instance he was asked whether he would opt out of his contract with the Sox:
“I don’t know. I am just worried about right now,” he said. “That is the last thing I am thinking about. When the media asks me, I am just like, ‘You know Scott Boras? Call him up.’ He’s the guy that is going to help me with that decision. I let him worry about that stuff.”
And as further proof of Boras being primarily responsible for many of his players receiving less than expected, here’s a direct quote about Alonso:
newsweek.com/sports/mlb/agent-scott-boras-was-reas…
“Known for his aggressive negotiation tactics, Boras established ambitious market expectations for Alonso’s services. Reports indicate he leveraged the Yankees’ perceived interest to elevate his client’s market value, initially projecting a contract exceeding $150 million. However, the actual market has failed to approach these lofty expectations,” Molnick wrote. “This development suggests Brian Cashman and the Yankees’ front office recognized the artificial inflation of Alonso’s market value and deliberately avoided entering the negotiation process.”
Yes I understand Boras works for the players, but many of the players truly allow Scott to make decisions for them. I suppose you think that’s crazy, but then again he gets paid to sort out all the financial stuff so I don’t blame some players for not being involved in the negotiating.
@fever
This is probably the best back-and-forth I’ve had about Boras given your baseline knowledge, level-headed approach, and seeking helpful information on the topic, so thank you for that! I feel like most of these conversations go off of feels.
I don’t understand what Boras handling JDM’s contract matters, though. I don’t doubt Boras has tried and failed to inflate other players’ values (like Alonso), but that doesn’t seem to be reflected in JDM’s free agency trips. His first one he had a monster offensive track record, and got paid accordingly. Waiting until February doesn’t tell us much. Did Boras have better offers and botch them? Or was he able to force Boston’s hand?
And since then, he has been a slightly above average hitter, but with no position and expensive for what he is. Again, he’s no team’s first choice of player, so signing early in the offseason is unlikely. And getting him signed earlier than likely can also mean accepting a lowball offer.
Pittsburgh, adult entertainment venues brace yourselves, “Strip Club Tommy” has arrived. You ain’t seen nothin yet! Ahahahahaha
NYC – You can’t blame the Bucs for taking a stab at Pham. Ahahahahaha
Fever- Sure it’s worth a shot I guess, at minimum he’ll show’em the real Tommy. Ahahahaha!
Sorry didn’t mean to flag ya on the last one riddler phones getting touchy.
Was trying to say “James harden says hold my beer”
Fever
What will happen first?
Cut from roster or cut with a knife?
Fever -apparently I was asleep at the switch “taking a stab at Pham” nice touch pal. Ahahahaha!
At opposing parks, can they play Bryan Adams when Pham comes to the plate?
“It cuts like a knife.”
LOL!
I believe lack of free agent market is why alot of baseball players retire. People turn 38 and it’s like all of the sudden they stop hitting? Others make it to 42 like Albert Pujols, or Nelson Cruz and there’s a huge difference in there age 42 seasons. Baseball clubs know the risk for drop off at or around this age like Nelson Cruz had. The eyes just don’t work right anymore, you can try surgery, but usually it’s all in the minds reflexes
Guy – It’s no different than the corporate world. Just like older baseball players, older office workers are riskier because many have declining skills and are more likely to suffer injury or illness. When they do suffer injury or illness, it typically takes longer to recover.
Especially a player like Pillar who has always played with reckless abandon.
In my opinion Pham at any dollar amount is an overpay. He is a nutjob.
Pirates have little leadership from players and absolutely none from manager. Tommy will have to keep himself inline lol
as long as he doesn’t stand at the plate watching to see if the ball reaches beyond the wall like Telllez did last year
I dunno how much hustle on field he has but off the field he works as hard as anyone.
He is a bit nutty but he is a good role model with his game day prep and hustle on the field
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t he the guy who b*tch slapped another player on the opposing team over fantasy football? Lol. Now I know why everyone else said pass
Unclutch your pearls, he bit slapped Joc, who was indeed being a beeyatch
Yes, that was him. Was Joc Pederson that he slapped … and it was when Pham was playing for my Reds.
Joc Pedersen, we’ve all dealt with bags like that at work and school. The guy that cheats at monopoly or fantasy sports or cards. In the Old West he’d be the guy put in the stocks or tarred and feathered after being outed. Maybe he should become an Astro
Ok I’m glad I’m hearing the full story. Eff joc! Pham is a crazy person of principle at least
They should DFA Skenes and just end this charade
Nice fallback after missing out on Alonso
“Just a bit outside.”
they didn’t miss out on Alfonso, they deliberately ignored him
They whiffed on Soto, obviously!
They are just scouting him in advance to sign him for his age 38 season. No worries.
What is the over/under on Pham getting cut before the 250k kicks in?
Over under? Your question is just a yes, no, isn’t it?
It is just yes or no, but he has a gambling problem so it has to be over/under
Oh it will happen. Pham thinks he is a 200 million dollar player lol but what he doesn’t realize is WaR is a stat but his attitude and narcissism is the reason he has failed to get a long term contract and lost a lot of money in the process. Not to mention he is about to break the record for the player who has played on the most teams. lol.
Rich Hill would like s word…
100% chance. I wouldn’t even bet against it.
4 mil is actually insane for him
Should’ve gone Duvall for like 1.2 mil
Cherington isn’t exactly known for having any logic when it comes to signing free agent position players
Probably hard to find anyone willing to play here tbh
Had to overpay for Tommy Pham
Harsh
Not hard to sign guys in the 1-2m tier.
I agree. I was making a joke
I wanted Adam Duval for that price.
Pham actually kindasux but adds some character to the team.
Decent signing for the Bucs. He’ll be good to have around if the team takes the next step forward this season and if not, he should play well enough to get flipped at the deadline for something.
Good luck.
To the next step
Meh he’s an upgrade over Conor Joe
But I’d say he’s either mid or DFAd
Don’t think he’s worthy of trade bait
We are Phamily!
Excellent!
That is good. Good as it gets. Deserves 200 likes. Shame it won’t be seen by everyone.
Man, you hit that one with a sledgehammer. Great take!
Pitty Phamatic
Big whoop. Below replacement level last year, probably worse this year.
But still an upgrade over Conor Joe
Is he? If Joe played strictly vs lefties and didn’t get overexposed because Suwinski couldn’t do his part., numbers may be better.
It’s debatable, but Pham has way more power potential
Both are below mid
4 mil is still mind blowing
Should have paid twice as much and grabbed Verdugo instead. What a wasted signing.
lol you guys get so emotional about this
Can’t help it when you have it in your blood.
I get so emotional baby…
Tom, perhaps you needs to revisit reading comprehension, There is little to no emotion in what I stated.
You should see them stressing in the Wendy’s drive tbru
You think Macbeth is emotional check out the Lady
Verdugo….is cancerous; you don’t want this guy near your young players.
Verdugo was an awesome teammate with the Yankees last year. I was rooting for him all year long to hit better so that the Yankees could resign him. You don’t have to like his personality but saying he’s a cancer couldn’t be further from the truth in his one year in NY.
If anyone is an issue it’s Pham (who’s now going to be with his 10th team in 12 years)
Dugie jamming to Cube during the WS was something.
Verdugo so much cancer they only got to world series but didn’t win it!
In his last year with the Red Sox….he showed up late to BP, and practices and started hanging out with Devers….and it was time to send him packing. The Sox don’t have a Judge in the clubhouse….when your team is young, and Veerdugo is your “veteran”….that’s not good. Glad he was a professional with the Yankees…..he went through long periods of disinterest with the Red Sox. Why didn’t the Yankees bring him back? He played great defense…..but maybe he is affect is marginal.
Verdugo is cancerous but Pham isn’t?
nytimes.com/athletic/4840461/2023/09/07/diamondbac…
Common sense says if he wasn’t cancerous teams would want him to come back. He is a decent baseball player. Instead he gets a few months and is shown the door.
The Yankees don’t appear to want him back.
Mac – There’s always Turner and Duvall.
Keep signing the former Red Sox players, what could possibly go wrong?
I understand that Jacoby Ellsbury is still available.
Big papi is a free agent
Verdugo scouted the tattoo parlors on East Carson St and wasn’t a fan.
Wow. This is Suwinski’s platoon partner with an old friend ‘paid down’ Marte available at about the same price plus a top 30 to 60 prospect.
Agreed. Shoulda been Marte.
no one knows what player the Bucs were offering for Marte or if Nutting even gave permission to trade for him
Optimism I love it #JackIsBack
A pessimist will see Pham as everyday player.
The Marte who had an .844 OPS vs LHP in 2024? The Marte who is a perfect reserve for the Mets?
The weak side of a platoon DH, who can also PH and PR. He is perfect for the Mets roster as currently constructed.
If he craters, see Cano, Robinson.
So why should the Mets pay him to play in Pittsburgh as a reserve when he is an ideal fit on a roster with a bunch of guys he’s known for 3 plus years?
10 million plus dollar reasons because of 110 % tax AND Keep Acuna on team to plug in at second and center. Opportunity for Alvarez to get more bats at DH. Rest Soto and Nimmo at DH and play Taylor. What is wrong with that? Marte is an injury risk the Mets don’t need hanging around for playing time against lefties at that cost once they signed Alonso. Players come and players go.
Phittsburg Phirates MOUNT UP
Ugh
Really?
Better than nothing
I was expecting nothing
might as well have been nothing
He’s 37 years old and is probably going to get hurt at some point
it’s just a matter of time
Ya I don’t disagree with that either
Deal would make way more sense if it was league min because I see Pham as someone who just buys them a little bit of time so presumedly Cook and Davis can start in AAA without having to force the issue.
Seems they’re all-in on Jack S , which is fine for a season, since they’ve already marginally accepted defeat.
Raise the Jolly Roger! Raise it!
Should Pham have to fight Tim Anderson before he gets a crack at Jose Ramirez?
Box off! I like it. What if they both hit each other square in the jaw at the same time?!
Idk, not a lot of fighers in MLB. We know Joc Pederson wouldn’t fight. Too bad Rugned Odor isn’t in the bigs anymore
This team makes me sick.
you can’t blame the players for being horrible blame management. Nothing they’re too cheap to care about winning.
One of the positives is you can always get a good seat at a cheap price for a game at one of the best ballparks in baseball to see visiting major league teams.
Well, the Savannah Bananas are coming in late August. Maybe they’ll want to relocate north
Pierogi yum
Savannah Bananas sell out.
Try Stubhub
The Bananas announced their 2025 tour schedule last fall and made anyone interested in tickets sign onto a mailing list. They then have a lottery to see who gets to buy tickets
I don’t believe that lottery has taken place yet as I’m on the list
Imagine. Baseball. That popular in Pittsburgh
About the only positive thing that could be said for Pham is that he’s continued to be fairly decent into June, after which he tails off – that tailing off becoming worse and worse as he ages. If Bucs can get a good April and May, that’s at least something. But as an acquisition to get Skenes into the post-season, it sucks.
The fact that this will take at bats away from Cook and Yorke makes me ill. Seriously Cherington and Shelton HAVE to go.
Unfortunately Nutting will continue…
Exactly. If your plan doesn’t entail bringing a couple big bats in to support their starting pitchers, then play the kids
This is yet another PR idea—like signing Frazier— to tell fans, “Hey, at least we’re trying”
Those 2 shouldn’t be starters anyways
You’ve seen enough of them already, Goku?
We’ve had what seems like ten years watching Suwinski and Davis now
What have Billy Cook and Yorke done to deserve automatic starting roles on a major league team?
Pham buys them time and can easily be DFAd if things don’t work out
But at least you’re getting major league ABs from a guy who’s shown some power in the past.
Billy Cook might be OK, but he’s not a guy I automatically slot in to the RH portion of a platoon prior to opening day
Who said automatic?
Your logic here entails endlessly going with retreads, year after year. Nothing changes. Same results. You jam younger players up with nonsense signings like these
Here’s hoping that there are some honest baseball people who give the kids a long look rather than guys who justify signings and money spent with “automatically “ bringing old war horses north
Exactly, that’s the thinking that keeps the lineup bad. Wow, they hit garbage AAA pitchers, let them earn it just like Suwinski and Davis this year. I get though that it’s tough to balance letting young guys work and improve and hurting the team. Suwinski had two years of production to warrant his spot last year but totally fell apart. Pham is good enough to at least give them a proven option for a few months.
Your comment is right on target, holecamels and it’s a great magnification of where the Pirates farm differs greatly from most MLB farms. With the Pirates, it’s all hype. Much lauded prospects get here and land with a thud. Most are on the Indy Shuttle, back and forth. Relatively few of their studs have done anything at the MLB level. It’s reflective of their scouting and development programs. Horrible. Who have they developed outside of pitchers?
Hayes exemplifies how poor it all is. What a bust
But I suspect most MLB teams who have kids they say are on the cusp of playing at the major league level actually ARE nearly ready. Here, it’s a joke.
Now you have a few kids who came from other organizations. Here’s hoping they get a long look because you can lose just as easily with them as you can retreads
This team needs to strip its scouting and development programs to the studs and start over
Ben isn’t known for DFAing a player mid season, especially with a salary of $4 million
That’s why he waited until there was only 6 games left to the season before he dumped Tellez
It’s an overpay out the gate, but I don’t think it will alter their plan for him.
I don’t think that Nutting allows him to DFA free agent players as Cherington would be admitting that he had made a mistake.
Lets be real, Nutting knows it’s a racket
Can’t win an offseason with a 7 mil budget
Nutting is the worst in the league.
Probably wants to go to a lesser team and hopes to get traded to a playoff team.
Professional at-bats….he’ll do fine in Pittsburgh.
Welcome to the over the hill gang! Why do we sign guys like this on the way down and take bats away from young guys with potential?
Because simply giving prospects starting roles has been a huge issue in player development for the Pirates over the years
Yeah, this is what I was afraid of as the names were falling off the board. I don’t see him helping this team. It is so difficult being a Pirate fan.
Getting closer to Octavio Dotel who pitched for 13 mlb teams over his career, this is team 10 for Pham and he could realistically get traded later in the season as well.
Fernando Rodney is another player that’s in that group.
Edwin Jackson, Immaculate Grid legend.
The Pirates actually found a way to downgrade from Bryan De la Cruz. I’m honestly somehow impressed.
For more money? Am I right?
Pham turns it on during the playoffs so he might be a trade chip for a contending team if the Pirates fall out of contention by the trade deadline.
If?
Players that sign one year contracts are guaranteed to be traded at the deadline
It’s their M O
Well, I was trying to be nice to Pirates fans. I don’t see them getting a playoff spot, but didn’t want to be rude about it.
no need to be nice to us, we’re accustomed to the dumpster diving contracts this franchise offers
Pirates didnt trade Chapman, Tellez, Taylor, or Grandal last year, all on 1 year deals. So much for the guarantee.
Probably because they were over 500 and bought at deadline last year!!! Pirates fans here are negative and thinking they will be below 500 this year and sell. Previous year Hill Choi Santana all gone. Quintana Vogey year before.
With the exception of Chapman, nobody probably offered anything for these other guys.
The Pirates. The last refuge of scoundrels.
Naw, for many it’s the last stop before heading out to playing in Asia. Pittsburgh: Gateway to the Orient
Dolly Parton and Lord Byron
They said “patriotism is the last refuge”
But now it’s me
Is this really an upgrade from Connor Joe?
There aren’t many free agent upgrades at this point in the offseason.
Actually, there are a number of guys in the pool this year who probably offered the Pirates huge upgrades over what they have. But hey, this is the Pirates
Some of those probably turned down the Pirates. Probably not but probably.
Should have bought earlier then. Refuse to pay market value and won’t get free agents.
This organization is a joke. Signing retreads every year. Not trying to build a winner. Cheerington only wants to deal with Toronto or Boston because of familiarity ridiculous….
Nobody that’s any good will sign for 1 year. That’s a Nutting thing, not a Cherington.
Retread is too kind.
This is like driving on the rims.
Yep. Predicted it on the Grichuk D’Backs signing thread
Typical Pirates. This guy won’t help to move the needle.
Hope Tommy enjoys pierogi races
don’t forget saturday night fireworks
And fantasy football!!!
So happy Randal went with us again. Pirates are stupid for not paying the extra mil for a younger better player in Grichuk
Well, you nailed it early on. The Pirates are stupid
And run by a miserly carpetbagger
If you were Grichuk would you choose the D’backs or the Bucs???
Just sayin
But if the Bucs offered 2 years 12 mil with an opt out he’d have taken it
1 year 8m. They don’t choose. They just take the most $. Pham didn’t choose to come to Pittsburgh. Just 4m is better than 2m.
MAKE A TRADE you fools. This infuriates me ! Could have had Grichuk, could have traded for Ward or Sanchez but you won’t trade some prospects. How many prospects do you want ?Totally disgusted with this organization. Dumb leading the dumb. Nutting you suck
Bucco, I don’t think they could have had anyone, because they didn’t even try.
Agreed, been following them since 1966 when they had great players. They don’t even attempt to be competitive. Wasting Skenes, Jones, Keller, Chandler. This organization sucks
I’m from that era, too
And you’re right. Their inaction this offseason defies logic. It’s how *not* to run a franchise, one that has a very good, very young starting pitching staff
It’s almost as if they care more about lining their pockets
Here’s a question: if you’re a blossoming superstar like Skenes or young star in the making like Jones or Chandler, what would make you want to stay here? After this off season, how is there a commitment to winning? If you’re Mitch Keller, how are you not asking for a trade?
Skenes will never sign here long term. It would be a stupid mistake and not just because it’s Pittsburgh. If healthy he’ll be one of the richest pitchers in the history of the game in just 5 years and he’ll make miiiiiiiiiiillions in arb.
Yep. Agreed
But ownership makes the decision so easy not just for a guy like Skenes but really, any of their young guns
Cant wait for Skenes to be traded. He deserves better. Usually I say take that extension if you are a pitcher. Skenes take the risk and get out of here. What joke of a team. I don’t know how you guys stick around. I just enjoy making fun of them.
I hear that much of the problem is that the club overvalues its prospects to the point where no trades can ever be made.
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
What a waste of a fine rotation.
Endless clicks on websites, X, and podcasts for another off season. Done wasting my time with this franchise. Pham was a bad sign. Not a good guy. 5 signings and a total WAR of ZERO last year
Nahhhhh, who ya foolin? You’ll be back when the pitchers report. 🙂
It was below zero bwar but who’s counting
okay, now that Ben signed an over the hill outfielder, which player will get the boot from the roster?
Palacios or Bae is my guess, or one of the relievers
I never was too fond of Palacios and Bae cannot hit major league pitching
bae runs like forest gump in the outfield
Too many choices
Seriously how many teams has this clubhouse cancer lunatic been on 15? Lol
He will get cut or traded before he sees those incentives
This is total head scratcher to me! Thought we were going to trade from pitching to get legit player with upside!!?
Welcome brand new pirate fan
It’s whatever but atleast it’s another guy infront of jiwan bae getting into the OF…solid plan BC
That actually is the only plus
So the plan is essentially to pray that Matt Hague can fix Suwinski/help Palacios breakout? Cool/s.
Uninspiring as usual.
Connor Joe>Pham
warm body if Suwinski. Davis, Yorke, (add your name here) can’t do anything of value in the OF.
I understand not wanting to make an exciting signing, if some of the bats don’t work out then a bigger signing is a waste but then again if they could get a couple better than average bats then that isn’t a problem.
Even if you say those like Nutting are cheap, when you are one of the pack in value even with the ‘free’ money you don’t want to take that big of a risk on a longer more expensive deal.
Sorry. That’s baloney
If you have made no commitment to being competitive —and unless you count the Horwitz deal as a tremendous gain—you don’t need to sign retreads like Pham or Frazier. You don’t spend $10M on an iffy reliever like Chapman
This franchise is simply trash, run by a stingy owner and stocked by an incredibly inept front office.
If you expect to lose, as they undoubtedly do, then embrace what Branch Rickey told HR King Ralph Kiner here 70+ years ago: We can lose 100 without you, Ralph
This is the same scenario.
Might as well play the young guys
that certainly is not the scenario here.
And yeah Horwitz deal was a pretty big move even if it isn’t the splash we wanted.
They may not lose 100, Joe, but this is a 70-72 win team, at best. There’s no cavalry coming over the hill to help
You bring in Frazier, Pham and let younger guys fester on the bench or on the farm? Defies logic
Horwitz will be a trivia question by this time next year. Everyone the Pirates touch seem to turn into….uh….dirt
Assuming health is good, they’ll be closer to 80 than 70. They didn’t degrade anything other than Chapman. They still upgraded 1b and the OF while spending next to nothing to do so. not counting the prospects that likely will be up. Pirates have one of the top starting prospects in the league that is expected this year.
I’m gonna go with my track record of three straight years being right. Doesn’t mean I think I am a genius but rather, that it’s easy to predict
Again this year, the question is simple: where will the runs come from? You can largely count on Reynolds, but who else?
Cruz? His pitch recognition and knowledge of the strike zone is horrible. He waves the white flag against lefties. He’s lazy and doesn’t hustle
Yes, I like his abilities but I’m guessing a slide back season ahead
Bart? I generally like the guy and can see 20+ homers, but with Endy in the mix, I’m guessing Shelton will somehow mess him up
Nick? It’s a hope, at best
Cutch? How long can he put up 20 homer seasons. Mostly solo shots as he bats at the top of the order
Hayes? Forget about it
Frazier? Pham?
And as much as I’d like to Jack or Davis or Triolo jump up, they’re long shots
Lots of ifs, lots of hopes.
Guess we’ll see
Ok Joe, not sure how the Pirates upgraded 1B and the OF unless you think Matt Hague can work wonders and unlock Horwitzs power hitting abilities.
@jab:
moving Cruz from SS to OF improves the OF and gives better defense at SS leaving just one OF spot to fill. Last year bar is pretty low so could probably put Clint Hurdle out there and have it be an upgrade. Joking aside they don’t even need an average bat to be an upgrade.
Rowdy was a general failure at first. he was over all negative. Horwitz. Horwitz in his 400+ PAs has shown to be well above average on offense. not huge power but could easily be a 20hr guy.
@Muy predicting the pirates is pretty easy since the 90s.
the trick is, pirates don’t need runs if the other team doesn’t score 🙂
INF defense is pretty solid with Horwitz, Nick, IKF and Hayes (if healthy). OF defense.. well… .. hm..
and starting pitching that has a legit shot at being the best in the league.
play off shot slim, but I have a strong feeling that we’ll be talking about a decent shot at the WC in September even if they fall short the last week or two.
You’re right, Joe. But here’s the difference from the 90’s: none of these starters will regularly go more than 5-6 innings. Then what?
Wish I could share your optimism—-I really want the team to do well—-but this ownership refuses to spend even a relatively small amount to build around their true players
Give me Skenes and staff in the. 90’s and I agree with you.
let’s remember that Santana wanted to return last year but wanted 2 million more than Tellez
With Shelton at the helm, he will find ways to misuse the pitching staff
If you want the best way to make your predictions use me instead.. When i’m optimistic they really suck. when i’m pessimistic they do better 😀
LOL Joe. It’s like me picking the right lane at the supermarket. Follow me and we’ll be in the one that takes longest. I know the feeling
Just a dog it gm. Grichuk for bit more Tauchman for bit less both better odds signings. Canha better.
Not Cheringtons fault. He fell on the sword. But this is what happens when you have a owner who doesn’t pay attention and a hockey guy running your team.
So….not an A+ signing?
Pham will be decent enough to flip at the deadline for a couple of minor leaguers
The endless mediocrity of Pirates team building
Perpetual rebuild
Two years away from being two years away
I wouldn’t be surprised if the next rebuild is in the offseason of 2025
They needed like, one more real hitter…now they have to hope Cruz plays like an MVP
Anyone know what the record for most teams played for is? Pham has to be getting close.
baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_franch…
Pirates will be Pham’s tenth franchise. Edwin Jackson is tops at 14.
There are HOFers that have played for 8 or 9 or (George Brett with) 11 teams . Moving around teams is not indicative of someone being a bad teammate for those that are claiming so with their “common sense”.
You lost me on the George Brett stat
What do you mean 11 teams? Maybe his brother, but he was a lifelong Royal
George BRITT! Lol. Yeah, I posted too quickly.
Another miss by Preller
Preller can do better than this
Sell the f’n team.
selling the franchise could mean relocating it to another location
The area strip clubs are on alert.
Maybe its closer to where his daddy is incarcerated, humm.
He’s not just a clubhouse cancer, he’s a clubhouse Chernobyl…
This is a 5.5 month contract. They’ll cash him in at the deadline.
Pham signing can be good depending how the Pirates use him. If he plays everyday, then he will produce like he did for the D-Backs and White Sox, but if they platoon him he will produce like he did for the Royals and Cards.
10 plus million dollar reasons because of 110 percent luxury tax now. DH Nimmo And Soto and Alvarez at times and play Taylor.Keep Acuna on roster and plug him in at second and center and DH. What’s so wrong with that instead keeping an injury risk.
This screams platoon with Frazier in left or right cook with platoon at first
I was literally thinking this morning about the Pirates scraping the bottom of the barrel and getting Pham but thought no way that even the Pirates would go this low.
This is beyond pathetic.
beyond pathetic is stamped on the team’s logo
Another player taking the spot of someone young who could make a difference. Why? Why bring that into the clubhouse?
C Still had nice hit data. Limited outcome. Floor is around 700 ops Ceiling 800. More likely floor.
Grichuk mvp vs LHP. Canha all star vs LHP. Winker all star vs RHP. Pham? Just a guy. I love it. Cherington needed fired. These all stars might have got him an extension. Maybe Pham can get him fired.
the only way he could ever get fired is if Nutting’s profits suffer
D for this. C too generous. They needed better.
I have to alert the media on this one. It’s a first
Future trade deadline candidate if he hits decent. Quickest way to the postseason!
Being with 10 teams in 12 MLB seasons just may say something about clubhouse presence. Just saying.
Hey Pirates fans…look at the bright side….Little Livvy will be cheering for her boo once in a while when he pitches…..lmao
I sympathize with the Pirates (and Cherington’s) payroll restrictions, but there’s such a thing as a “spring training invite” level of player, and IMO, both Frazier and Pham qualify. A team may not have a lot of money, but throwing away $2 million here, $3 million there, starts to add up.
The only payroll restrictions the Pirates have are what Nutting himself places on the franchise when he’s determined how much profit he wants to bathe in this season
Other than that, agreed
Grichuk for $5 million to the snakes and the Bucs wouldn’t pony up. So they blow $4 million on Pham. I threw up in my mouth a little bit. Ugh the Pirates deserve what they get.
Pointless signing. Pham was sub-replacement level last year (he did take the field, remember?). The Pirates don’t have some 21 yo glove gazelle they can get a win out of? Put the kid’s +10-15 glove in LF, have him crowd the plate and get hit enough to put up a .300 OPS, which gets him on base enough to steal 30-40 bags at a good clip—then spend that $4m in the IFA or an above slot draft pick or a KBO lottery ticket.
It’s a sorry thing, that low-spending teams tend to be so uncreative.
Decent player but terrible in the locker room. Glad it’s the Pirates.
Baseball in Pittsburgh is held hostage by the worst owner in all of sports! Alll offseason they could’ve made a move to bring in an upgrade and chose not to. Gets old. Pham is done and sucks… The entire plan is the rotation to carry us to WC contention! Sell the team Bob
My only question is why?
Hope that he gets slapped like he smacked the ogre
Here’s how I see this move. Suwinski or Yorke is the 3rd starting Outfielder. Pham is the 4th Outfielder (platoon if Suwinski is a starter). Short term insurance policy if Suwinski or Yorke don’t cut it. Pham surely wasn’t signed to be a starter.
Adam Frazier was the same type of signing (potential platoon/short term insurance policy at 2B). But can also play elsewhere.
That’s 2 of 4 bench positions, with the other 2 being the 2nd catcher and Jared Triolo (who will likely platoon at 1B and play a lot at 3B—Hayes will be hurt).
Despite all the talk about pitching being their strength, it’s really not (excluding Skenes). They still need help here.
It’s kind of sad that after 5 years of a rebuild, and drafting at (2x) or near the top for 5 years, they have the 5th rated farm system of the 5 teams in the NL central. That seems to be a major problem.
Classic signing designed to last until sometime in late July. Pay a fraction of a low salary, then turn him into a low-end prospect or two. I’d say the Pirates are rebuilding, but have we seen any indication there’s an end goal? It’s just going through the classic “rebuild” motions (collect prospects, sign nobody of value, pocket money, preach patience & bleat that this is how they HAVE to do it) every year, with no plan (or apparent desire) to ever emerge & compete. Poor Skenes is on the Garrett Cole plan & has 6 more years to kill before he escapes. Well, probably 3 or 4 because the Pirates won’t want to pay Year 2 or 3 arb prices & will want maximum prospect return…so they can go back into rebuild mode.
This signing is so weak I give the Pirates off season which was on pace for a A and then a B to now a D for disappointing.
If they would have signed Grichuk it’s a A. Anyone who wouldn’t feel better about their off season if they signed Grichuk instead of Pham?
Sign Canha I will give them a C for giving the team a Chance.
Pham signing made Mendoza switch to Phillies.
I do follow the Phillies now but I live in the past with the Buccos and follow MLBTR only because of a few knuckleheads like youse guys.
Dream-I see nee “old dude” has changed his pen name for the 2047 th time.
I’m sure 2048, 2049 and 2050 will be imminent, as well. It’s a literary reaction, a response to the many drone-like fanboys one finds on these pages who meet critique with either meaningless analytics or fan club talking points, and this site’s heavy-handed approach with editing and censorship
My writing style is my footprint. The name is inconsequential. I’m just looking to occasionally irritate keyboard legends in their own minds.
Eres muy bueno.
Hombre divertido.
Arb 2 guys who at trade deadline or off season will need traded if not extended.
Bednar Santana
I estimated next years payroll with arbitration and even bringing Cutch back at 5m. Pirates tv deal is up. So if attendance is same and they negotiate to the same tv deal and Nutting doesn’t increase spending the Pirates have 2 million to spend in free agency. That was having Jack dfa. If he is Back there goes that 2 million easily. Cruz will hit arbitration, others arbitration will go up and Keller Reynolds will make more.
2027 to 30 Reynolds will make 15m a year. They already talking move to 1b because his outfield defense. Santana Goldschmidt hit similar to Reynolds at cost 12m. Reynolds look like a salary Nutting would like to get rid of? 15m of 80m 90m payroll. When you have Horowitz for 6 years. A Winker Grichuk platoon is less than 15m. One guy starts one is pinch hitter later. Reynolds 14m next year.
Nutting didn’t build a team that I would say excite people so why should attendance go up significantly? Why would someone give them a bigger tv deal?
Bednar Santana have to be traded just because of free agency. Reynolds maybe because of $.
Without signing a single free agent other than Cutch for 5m. The payroll will be the same as it is right now. Close enough as I only did 3 minutes of work. To sign any free agents Nutting will have to increase payroll. Unless they trade Reynolds and bam instant 15m which should cover their dumpster diving. Or because of “their pitching depth” “prospects” they could trade Keller who makes yes 15m.
Food for thought. It’s either trade Keller or Reynolds vs Nutting taking payroll to 100m. Which of those options do you think sounds more appealing to Nutting?
Another option don’t bring your icon Cutch back. Trade Falter and increase payroll a tiny bit.
*I think this is one of those comments that makes you say this is why I haven’t muted dream yet!
I think that all three owners of Pittsburgh’s sports franchises have done a great deal to either kill or at the very least stifle fan enthusiasm via their actions in the past couple years. It’s like watching Al Bundy sitting on the couch with his hand down his pants. That is, ownership seems very content with doing nothing
We can go round and round where Nutting is concerned. He’s the Mr.Potter of our Bedford Falls. The crotchety, old, greed obsessed owner who has little concern for his business beyond numbers in the ledger. And those numbers are fabulous. A continued windfall for a guy who knows little about baseball
Again, he feels no allegiance to the city. No responsibility to the citizenry where putting a competitive product on the field is concerned. And that he conducts his affairs in a taxpayer funded palace is of no consequence to him
Look, it’s nothing personal…he may be a wonderful human being. But as an owner, he’s the absolute worst, a study in how not to run a sports franchise
You’ve done a solid job of analyzing the realities of it all for us. Everything you’ve written isn’t just hypothetical, it’s likely things which they’ve discussed in their high echelon meetings
And it’s emblematic of why I watch less sports than ever and have resolved to watch less Pirates baseball than ever. It’s all greed. From ownership like Nutting to the players. It’s sickening and illustrates how our priorities as a society are out of whack.
Professional and “college” athletes, owners and coaches. Everyone gets paid. And paid well.
Screw them all
End of rant
Pittsburgh sports is about as pathetic as it gets. Pirates in best position. If they traded for Tucker you would feel pretty good. Signed Winker Grichuk feel pleased alright giving them a chance. Even as is all it would take is Jack to hit again or Davis to hit. They got the most expensive and important thing, pitching. Got pitching depth. Even got position player depth. Just need some offense. Pens Steelers much more difficult path. Steelers need to wait for lady luck in draft to get a qb. Only ever had 2. Hard to find.
Maybe Pham will be better than Grichuk. Pirates smartest guy in room. Would it kill them to sign Canha? He would just platoon at 1b but could play outfield if need be.
Would you rather sell your tv rights after a playoff season or 70 win season? You’d think they be more motivated.
I think people are miserable and desperate for entertainment. I find these tv shows and movies awful. Handful of alright ones a year. Nfl boring. Huddles injuries penalities replays. Hockey I could watch if pens were any good. At least in playoffs. Baseball I will watch Skenes starts and Konnor in minors. If Pirates surprise I will pay more attention but 70 win team isn’t much fun. I got plenty of hobby movies tv recommendations for anyone who needs entertainment.
Agreed about entertainment. Where local sports teams were once the primary focus, it’s just not applicable anymore. But then, times change
I come from an era when many if not most pro players actually lived here. Many took jobs in the off season. And retirement didn’t mean the end of looking for work. And college athletes? If you were that good, your perk was a free education
Look at all of it now and how it’s changed.
I don’t care what players make. Owners are making more than them. And in baseball they choose to pay them. They only have to pay them 800k. Owners could use the luxury tax as a legitimate excuse to limit payroll but they just blow right past it. They choose to spend. They should be more financially conservative like Mr Nutting.
That’s where we differ greatly. Yeah, the owners are the land barons. I get it. They’re scumbags
But the players? Sorry, if the entire system is rotten, I can’t put a smiley face on them. Tell me you support nurses. Or teachers. Or police officers. But pro athletes? Just another level of scum baggers.
Easier to teach and nurse than hit mlb pitching. How many nurses throw 100mph. Anyone with out a mental disability can learn to teach and nurse. Why would anyone accept less $ than someone is willing to pay them? My doctor dentist attorney account all make more than a teacher and they certainly don’t take less $. No one does. Paul did you do your engineering work for teacher salary? You are truly worthy of saint hood my friend.
as long as Cutch is popular with the fans he will continue to signed
Dear lord. Other teams are out there throwing around 500 million plus contracts and they’ve never spent more than 39 million on a player in free agency?
I wonder why Nutting doesn’t just sell the team and go into another business. Is whatever additional money he makes doing this over something else really worth being this hated?
Free agency is worst way to spend $ unless you have tickets to sell and there’s a absolute super star available like Harper or even Machado did for PHI SD. Jays tried this with Ohtani Soto. Mets don’t think Soto is worth 700m. They just want to sell 200k more tickets each year, charge more, try to get more fans by time their tv rights are up. So it was ok enough signing. If Yankees signed him it would have been AWFUL.
Pirates should have been in on Harper. They could have used ticket sales and a super star. Nutting takes absolutely zero risk though. He doesn’t care about $ nearly enough because to make the most money you need to take risk. 90 some percent of the more expensive free agents is just throwing away your $. Not only aren’t Bryant Baez Rendon Boegarts any good but fans don’t give a it about them.
Dream- You are correct in your assessment,but also know that Harper would not have even considered Pittsburgh,no matter what the money was.
He basically was promised by the Phillies owner who wanted him very much that he would spend $$$ money on future free agents.
I wonder if any super stat head ever made a rigorous analysis going back ten years of the WAR for each free agent of over a say $50M contract for five years before free agency and five years after,then compare the five year total salary for each before and after.
Sounds like something that Nutting may have done.
Everyone has a price Mendoza. I’m not talking 340 350 I am saying 400 plus. And it would be worth it. Look at their attendance before and after. Harper will end up not only being free but providing surplus. Very few players capable of this. Better players than Harper weren’t nearly as marketable. I’d rather have Harper than Soto and look what Soto cost. Maybe he is crazy and would take hundreds millions less to be on Philly. Make him say no. Fantasyland. Nutting wouldn’t call a guy making more than 12 million. Pirates needed a rebuild anyways.
Freeman would have been perfect as well. We all know Pirates needed 1b and once he messed up with the Braves he had no market. Unfortunately Pirates were in beginning of rebuild so I get it not that they would if it was today.
These opportunities don’t happen often. If one does I will be here pounding the table. I know Nutting won’t do it but I have to be on record so I can criticize him. If Freeman was a free agent in 2014 2015 I would be here still today calling Nutting out on it.
You are using your name as a verb instead of an adjective.
Harper has been here for six full seasons and how many championships has he won?
Do you know that he wanted to extend his contract into his forties last year?He basically has “suggested” directly to the owner who he wants them to sign.
Do you really think that the newness would not have well worn off by now with Pittsburgh,especially since he would have been the only really good position player on the team?
Do you think that he will still be an all star into his late thirties?
Do you think that that contract would become an albatross for a small market team,and fairly soon?
Do you think that they could trade him without eating much of the contract even now as he would want to be traded?
It is important to dream,but not make them be your aim if they are impractical.
The 2 most important things are owners care about $ more than anything. I’m the same way. Is it Harpers fault they didn’t win? Next is they don’t care about his late 30s. If they are even slightly above average that’s a huge win. Those contracts are just to stretch out the AAV.
It’s not the NFL where you can sit out half the season or NBA demand a trade and get it. Ownership laughed. Should have signed with a team stupid enough to give you a opt out like Machado did.
Harper has surplus value. Easy to trade. Would have to waive no trade clause which he would gladly do to get out of Pittsburgh.
No,it was not his fault,but the notable free agent signings since 2019 have basically been approved by him.
He has surplus value now,but in five years?
Harper did not want an opt out clause which impressed Phillies management.They have not been giving them anyway.
The big difference is the amount of revenue generated by each team.The Phillies had 40% more attendance than the Pirates peak 2015 year.Other sales are probably at least proportionate.
The insurance in itself would have been huge for that big of a contract.
Nutting may be cheap but this is the main reason why small market teams cannot compete for a championship.They cannot afford the superstars.
Why didn’t he want a opt out? Is he a idiot? It only benefits the player. He doesn’t have to use it. I would guess he absolutely wanted a opt out but didn’t want to sacrifice guarantee $ or sign with another team. So vs taking less $ he didn’t want a opt out. Then gives his lil pr move about wanting to be Philly for life for the gullible fans to eat up. Then hits them up for extension so he can play until he is 50. Want to be Philly for life do what Cutch Kershaw do. 1 year at a time.
5 years he has 2 years left so who cares. He’s a team legend hall of famer ambassador. Like having Cutch around. He could age well. Doesn’t matter. You aren’t trading him at that point or any point unless he wants it.
Any team can give out a big contract. Only 1. Pirates just have a awful owner and fans just keep rewarding him with more $.
The proof is in the pudding.No small market teams are giving out contracts like Harper’s.If it goes south it would kill a team.
I actually think that Harper knew that he was going to make so much money and with the rabid fans here and the influence that he had with the owner that it was a really good situation.
Not everyone needs more money when they can make $30M per year for 13 years.
The Phillies have got their money’s worth so far but these stars are getting older now and the optimum time for a championship is running out.
Franco Yelich Davis Votto Stanton Witt.
There’s only 2 teams that never done a 100m contract.
Who have the Pirates had that was worth paying 200 300 million? They haven’t won a playoff series in 40 some years. Division in 30 some years. They shouldn’t be giving out contracts because they have no idea how to build and supplement a team. Yet they extended everyone worth extending Cutch Marte Reynolds Keller. Even fan favorites Polanco Hayes. You want to pay them more just to have a impressive number? Big problem is it’s smarter to get the prospects than signing the player. It’s either take our team friendly extension or we will trade you. No great trade return available ok we will take our 1st round draft pick then.
Good points, but Polanco and Hayes certainly weren’t fan favorites yet. These are examples of the Pirates overestimating their young players and trying to lock them in. Huge mistakes where both were concerned and again, it calls both the scouting and player development departments into question
I would believe both have become caution flags for the Pirates where Cruz is concerned. Maybe they’ll try to extend, maybe not, but you’d think that the “fool me twice” idea is at work here
Hayes makes like 7m a year. That’s 2 or 3 million more than washed scrubs like MAT Yoshi Pham. If he never plays again it doesn’t matter.
Point is, he was never a fan favorite
He was called “the cornerstone of the franchise” by the front office before proving anything
A bigger bust than Polanco ever was, no matter how much he was paid.
Just another bad decision from a really stupid front office
Thank you for making my point.
Franco- we know how that turned out.The Rays are lucky that they do not have to pay him.I do not doubt that Arte Moreno would have wished the same thing about Josh Hamilton
Yelich- several years of mediocre return then a comeback then a serious injury
Davis- poster child for owner induced contracts- see Arte Moreno
Votto-got their money’s worth for over half the contract then basically nothing the last two or three years
Stanton-like the Pirates have done with several much smaller contracts found a big market taker who has experienced mixed results at best with him
Witt- may very well be a good contract but we really do not know yet
Even the Pirate extensions have had mixed results with a 4 to 3 result when Tabatha is included.
The Pirates under Huntington were successful for a limited period in developing home grown position players and augmenting with trades and free agents.He took over a weak system that produced good players for a limited time.
The Pirates will never be good unless they can produce the same model,and it does not seem to work with Cherington even though his drafting is much better than Huntington.
Jays-Nutting is getting a 10% increase on his initial investment every year for almost 30 years,along with 5-7% annual income.
Would you sell the team if you owned it?
If I was as rich as him I wouldn’t be so worried about making money that I would feel the need to crush the dreams of every Pittsburgh Pirate fan out there just to make some more.
First off, Jays, my friend likes to quote the 10% number a lot. This is no insult to him, but I continue to believe that number greatly low-balls the actual profit percentage.
Secondly—and I’ll continue to pound these points—Nutting is not a local. He doesn’t live here. He isn’t a fixture at games. He’s reclusive with regards to answering questions. He does not feel compelled to live by the promises the previous owner made in garnering millions in tax dollars to build the palace the millionaires now play in. There simply is no semblance of civic responsibility where fielding a competitive team is concerned.
You come to PNC Park to see perhaps the nicest ballpark in the US. You come for a festive atmosphere with hot dog and t-shirt launches, pierogi races and a generally friendly vibe. But you don’t come to see a competitive team
To be clear, I do remember the atmosphere of those bygone days. During the first Cutch era. The Leyland, We Are Family, Lumber Company and Clemente eras
This is not what the Pirates are selling now. And fans from that era are certainly not their target audience
Jays-The 10% number is easily calculated by his purchase price and the reported value by Forbes now.
One does not need to be a CPA to calculate it.
The annual income is based on the same source and compares somewhat closely to the Atlanta Braves publicly reported numbers from several years ago.
This is not nuclear science.
Mr Bueno is getting the two mixed up.
But it does prove his point that Nutting is making money hand over fist at least on his initial investment.
And your last point is based on what you would do if you had that much money.Nutting is a businessman first and foremost and his main goal is to make as much money as he can.
Mendoza, I always appreciate your comments.
I know you have an advanced degree, as do I, and I put a lot of stock in your thoughts
Please know that when I question the 10% figure, I am not questioning you, personally
There’s a reason MLB keeps its books closed for public consumption. I am sure all owners understand and tow the company line. As such, I question any team throwing a figure out there as much as I do a publication providing a basis
It all may be accurate but in a marketing sense, it would be reasonable to think profit margins are understated so as not to alienate the public
Still, you’re right. Nutting makes a handsome profit each year. Dream tends to think none of us understand the disparities between where large and small market teams are concerned and thinks we see profit margins as being indicative that a franchise should spend much more
On the contrary, your point is valid. No owner got into this to squeak by or break even. In a business sense, you’re not a winner by overextending payroll in a small market region with a 39K seat stadium
I get all of that
Just a willingness to spend on a par with KC, MIL, BAL or CLE would be nice, and that includes perhaps the most important elements of solid player development and scouting personnel. To me, everything is skimped upon here
He is always going to be frugal/cheap.That we can agree on.
The best indicator of the future is generally the past.
Those teams that you have mentioned have gone through lean periods in wins and also in total salary usually commensurate with wins.
Nutting did increase the payroll during the period 2013-2017 when the Pirates were excellent then average.The amount was similar to the amounts of the teams that you mention and even more with the substantial amount of recent inflation added
KC and Bal have newer front offices,and Mil and Cleve have had successful ones for a number of years.
I do believe that Nutting will spend more if Cherington provides a good team in order to be even more competitive.It will also give him a return on his investment through more sales and more game attendance totals.The 29,800 average attendance in 2015 was substantial and he saw the $ signs from it.
If I am correct,then the main problem that I have with him is that he keeps in place the GM and manager of teams that have consistently lost for five years and their win total is predicted to be only one more this year than last.
He is not a baseball person and has people around him who are not also.
Cherington has mixed reviews at best in my opinion.Shelton will never be a winning manager.He probably keeps Shelton because he will probably do what he did before,fire them both at the same time.
My point is that a small market team must first have established a successful minor league coaching system in order to provide ML players to be successful.Even most of the big market teams know that,Once there,money can be spent to augment the good team with more expensive free agents,
Nutting is clueless to much but even he understands that maxim of Major League Baseball.
Agree with many of your comments here. About Nutting not being a baseball man. About Cherington and Shelton
I agree about Nutting spending money during the Cutch/Walker heyday. And I think I’ve said this before—I’m sure it provided a valuable lesson to him. “I spent all this money, took a loss for that quarter, and have nothing to show for it”
You provide a chicken and egg dilemma here. Which comes first? Fans coming out to justify spending, or spending to build a better team so fans come out?
No doubt, you have him pegged
But they’re in a real conundrum now.
You and I agree about the term “rebuild” but for all intents and purposes, Dream is correct. To them, the rebuild is over. Unfortunately, what was erected has a great many problems within. And this is my biggest area of misunderstanding the modus operandi here:
Where teams like KC, MIL and BAL had similar rebuilds and had similar shortcomings, they decided to augment with affordable major leaguers
The Pirates decided to throttle down and have gotten progressively cheaper
It lacks all sense.
I’d say the Pirates are ahead of where the aforementioned teams were concerned at this stage, at least when it comes to starting pitching and yet, there was no commitment to bringing in a couple affordable bats this off season
To me, it’s outrageous and inexcusable. The only gray area is who makes the decision? The owner, by way of edicts he passes down, or an inept GM?
Probably both,although Nutting gives him an amount that is low and Cherington cannot make any mistakes,so he may not even spend it all.
The problem that I see this year is that they still have say $10M to spend and need another reliever who has closed before like Finnegan from Washington.
I really do not see the need for Frazier,and Canha could serve to play first base and the outfield.
They may not be done but players really need to get a full spring training with a new team.
If Nutting will not spend even these modest amounts,then I will agree more with your take on him.
If Cherington does not see the need to add a couple more decent players then it is on him.
Again, I agree
Perhaps the main point of your previous posting was ignored in my reply: building the farm system
On this point, Cherington has failed.
On the surface of course, he restocked a cupboard that Huntington largely left bare. But here again, the quality of the talent has to be called into question as well as the player development program
Perhaps what’s most disconcerting here is that there is no cavalry coming over the hill anytime soon
I really think that he has drafted well.
Some of Huntington’s first round picks were awful.
Cherington’s have been much better and remember that he got Davis under normal slot cost in order to get Chandler later on.
Chandler could be top ten drafting or better.
I think that Cherington has fired some of his minor league managers and coaches so he has figured out where the main problem has been.
And as I have said before the Pirates have had an uncanny ability lately at developing starting pitchers so he must be doing something right.
You are right though,I see no young Andrew McCutcheons coming here soon.
I’d disagree somewhat but in the end, it all comes down to developing players, no matter who comes into the system
This franchise simply hasn’t. For years
And we’re not talking pitchers here
As for Pham, he’ll still likely be among their RBI leaders if he stays healthy. Marte would have been a better get, but it’s Nutting. Again
$4mm overpay for a useless malcontent.
If the Pirates had waited until March 1st they could have had Pham at league minimum.
The strippers union has arranged a discount for small arms training at the local gun range.
Pham had already said he wasn’t wearing f’ing #90 lol
10 teams in 12 years…why is that?
I don’t know why, but it seems that there always a few guys that continue to get chances and paid, yet their recent performance doesn’t merit another chance. Joe Kelly comes to to mind. And then of course, here we go with Tommy Pham – who also seems to have bad character. Such is baseball I suppose. Bad franchises will continue to exist. But the Dodgers are the bigger problem, right?
Ok. Now outbid the Padres on Rizzo. Of course the powers that be might decide to see if Henry Davis can play first since right field and catcher don’t seem to be working out. Rizz would give Cutch someone to talk to.
Pham needs 15 hits for 1,000. That’s all I have.