3:29pm: Toro will make $1MM if in the majors, per Chris Cotillo of MassLive.
9:50am: The Red Sox and free agent infielder Abraham Toro have agreed to a minor league contract, reports Daniel Alvarez Montes of El Extra Base. The Republik Sports client receives an invitation to major league spring training.
Toro, who turned 28 last month, was a well-regarded prospect with the Astros who has at times flashed some of that potential in the majors. He posted a roughly league-average batting line and popped 11 homers in 95 games between Houston and Seattle in 2021 — the same season that saw the ’Stros deal him to the M’s in exchange for reliever Kendall Graveman. Toro appeared in 60 games with Seattle following that trade, walking at a slightly above-average clip and fanning in only 13% of his plate appearances during that age-24 season.
At the time, Toro looked like a potential regular for the Mariners, or at the very least an oft-used and versatile semi-regular. The switch-hitter saw his output crater in 2022, however. Toro batted only .185/.239/.324 in 352 plate appearances with the Mariners. The following offseason, he was traded to the Brewers in return for Jesse Winker and Kolten Wong — a move that didn’t pay 2023 dividends for either team.
Toro hit well in Triple-A for the Brewers but never got a real look in the majors, tallying just 21 plate appearances as a Brewer. Milwaukee flipped him to the A’s in the 2023-24 offseason, netting righty Chad Patrick in return. Toro hit .240/.293/.350 in 364 plate appearances with Oakland before being passed through waivers and electing free agency at the beginning of the current offseason.
While Toro has yet to produce in the big leagues (.220/.285/.353), he’s spent the majority of his time in pitchers’ parks like T-Mobile and the Coliseum. He’s a switch-hitter with a career .305/.396/.486 batting line in parts of five Triple-A seasons, and he has experience at third base, second base and (to a lesser extent) first base.
Toro gives the Red Sox some more depth in the infield as the team continues to face a glaring question at second base. Top prospect Kristian Campbell may eventually claim that spot as his own, but he’s versatile enough to handle shortstop or an outfield spot as well. He also still has only 19 games of Triple-A experience under his belt (though he showed brilliantly there). Other second base options for the Red Sox include David Hamilton, Vaughn Grissom, Romy Gonzalez, non-roster invitee Nate Eaton and top prospect Marcelo Mayer. It’s also feasible that oft-injured Trevor Story could move over to second base, though for now he’s still ticketed for regular work at shortstop.
That’s some bull!
Tom – You can’t spell “bathroom” without Abraham Toro.
I like the move. Insurance for Campbell/Grissom.
I like it too but Gonzalez is the forgotten player who was just as surprising (to me) as Hamilton was. I’m hoping either has worked on their defense. I’m surprised Hamilton hasn’t been traded.
dewey – I like RomGon, but it’s a classic situation where with a 3-man bench (plus backup catcher) you can’t have a bench guy who puts up a .498 OPS against RHP.
If they had two more bench spots available, THEN you can carry him all season. I think he may be an early casualty.
Hamilton is a keeper, he had the same WAR as Rafaela in 254 fewer PA’s. His speed makes all the difference.
There’s your 3b replacement, Fever! 😉
Sal – They lost a couple Canadians, so I’m glad they are replacing one of them at least ;O)
Let’s start the queue for snarky comments about the red sox finally getting that lauded ‘right handed hitter’ into the lineup…
And…
Go!
But seriously, as a minor league filler piece, they could do worse. You just wonder where he slots in with everyone in AAA really needing to play almost every day in the middle infield already… maybe 3B, but, for all his shortcomings with the glove, Devers is fairly durable and this kid would never displace him.
I figured if he made the sox roster it would be in a utility role. same with AAA probably spilt time between 2B/3B if campbell or Grissom aren’t ready.
Well, maybe Breslow shouldn’t keep telling us they need/plan to add a right handed bat if they have no plans on acquiring a right handed bat. It’s not rocket surgery.
Until they either start acting like a serious front office again or at least stop pretending to by making all these stupid comments and empty promises, snarky comments are all we got.
Back to being serious, I think Worcester will have plenty of room for Toro at the infield corners. Campbell and Mayer need to be playing every day up the middle if they aren’t with the big team, but they don’t have anyone at first or third down there who looks like even an organizational depth type of big leaguer. I’d have no qualms with him being the every day guy at either or splitting time at both for the WooSox, and if he impresses and the opportunity arises, maybe he can work his way back to being a bench bat in the show.
The right handed bat we really want is Vladdy Junior
Not happening because should he not stay in Toronto, he’s NY bound. Henry will again pretend to be in it but will not pony up at the end.
There’s no sense in having both vlad Jr and Devers on the same ballclub, particularly with Casas around.
Of the current dh or 1b types you’ve got Casas, Devers, and Yoshida already plugging things up. If you want Vlad Jr, fine, but two of the other 3 need to leave town first.
Den – Not sure I want to invest half a billie on a guy who had just an .804 OPS combined in 2022-2023.
Especially if it means moving Casas or Devers off the team.
Denden — If you really want Valid Jr, I’m sure the Blue Jays would accept Casas, Durran, and Yoshida for him.
…maybe at the trade deadline when it’s even more obvious Toronto needs to move him and get something before he too becomes a Dodger.
sorry but he will be a Dodger
Randy — Yeap. They’ll move Freddie to RF, Mookie to 1B, Vlad JR to the bump, and Othani to Catcher.
Grr, Dodgers, grr!
Dirty – I’d really like to know how surgery is performed on a rocket?
And yep as even Kennedy and Breslow have said, they deserve the criticism until they put the team back in contention.
Toro would be a bench glove though, not a bench bat. A career .285 OBP is not something we want starting or pinch hitting in the big leagues.
Fever, rocket surgery involves a nose job, a booster shot and blasting off some of that extra pad we all have.
Very carefully, of course!
Good point about him being a bench glove rather than bat. Bad habit of referring to a guy as a bat just because he’s not a pitcher. He “bats” I guess you could say, but isn’t likely to do anything at the plate you’d want to see.
Dirty – Well back in the day the bench guys WERE mostly bench bats.
But these days it’s common to see guys with batting averages under .220 coming into games to pinch hit because of the short bench and then stay in the game. It’s not that often you see a guy pinch hit and then get removed for a better defensive player.
As much infield depth as the Red Sox have, they don’t seem to have anyone to backup 3rd if Devers is hurt. There’s a long list of guys who might be able to do it, but last year they tried going to Romy and he looked awful at 3rd.
Toro was primarily a 3rd baseman in the minors, and in the majors he’s been average-to-better defensively by all primary defensive metrics.
Break glass in case of emergency signing.
Absolutely. I’m fine with it, as far as emergency/organizational guys go he’s fine. And like you said we have zero of them at third. It’s good depth planning. I just remain disappointed that this is the only thing even partially resembling a major league bat they’ve added, with odds appearing low that anyone better will be coming. Tyler O’Neill contributed 31 homers, 2.6 bWAR, 61 RBI, 74 runs, and a 132 OPS+ last year. I continue to find it absurd that they are not remotely interested in replacing that production while continuing to make comments about how serious they are about getting us back to the playoffs.
Dirty – I think O’Neill’s production will be replaced by someone graduating from the farm. Whether that’s anthony or Campbell remains to be seen.
I don’t think its Mayer anytime soon since he has been particularly fragile, hasn’t even played in AAA, and seems to have learning pains each time he jumps levels where he slumps and needs to adjust a bit. Not the profile of a guy who skips levels or makes quick jumps.
The other thing is it sounds like the FO is hellbent on ‘rebuilding some value’ with Yoshida at the expense of competitiveness and the mlb club. Putting him in the field hurrs everyone. They need an addition by subtraction to put the best 13 guys on the bench that can contribute to a ‘w’ every game. Yoshida has value, but, isn’t a good fit in BOS. Eat the money, get a defensive 3B, and let devers/Casas split 1B/DH.
I hope you’re right about one of the kids stepping up to replace that production. I’m as excited to start seeing them as anyone, I just am not crazy about thrusting them into position where they’re expected to do too much too soon. Some guys relish that kind of pressure but it destroys a lot of promising young kids. So I’d feel better if we brought in one more established hitter so we can let the kids play their way into the lineup at their own pace, but hopefully at least one of the big three will be ready and able to make the jump early on.
I think at this point there’s no other conclusion than that you’re spot on about Yoshida. I want to treat him as a sunk cost, but the FO clearly doesn’t. If they were willing to, I’m sure they’d have already found a new home for him. Like you say, it’s not that he’s not a useful player, but he is a poor fit for this roster and also moderately overpaid. At least he’s not overpaid to an extreme degree. It’s at least within the realm of possibility that he could put up just strong enough of a season that somebody would be willing to take him come July. Beats the outlook for Story’s contract, we’re gonna be stuck with that until the end whether we want to be or not. (I already don’t want to be).
Mayer will be at AAA and has shown the ability to make adjustments. It’s not unrealistic that he will be playing in the Majors by the end of the season.
Dirty – Not just the kids.
A healthy Casas.
A healthy Devers.
A healthy Story.
A healthy Yoshida.
They will MORE than make up for O’Neill’s offensive contributions last year.
FPG yup a healthy Casas should be worth 30 plus homers but a healthy Story can be a big help against lefties he’s always had hefty splits, including in Boston. A healthy Story, a big if, goes a long way to not only helping with lefties but solidifying the infield defense.
I assume Yoshida’s use in the field will be limited. He is the obvious DH so give him an occasional start in the field to convince a trade partner he is capable. If he is used too much in the field he could get injured or show that he had no value there which defeats the purpose. Is he supposed to be ready for spring training? If so maybe they can showcase him and unload him before the games count.
Uncle – Yoshida was still swinging off a tee a couple weeks ago. He probably won’t be throwing in ST, at least not early on. Kinda ironic he had the exact same surgery as Ohtani, very close in time too.
I think the best case scenario is Yoshida proves himself in the first half and then gets traded at the deadline if he’s no longer needed.
they are not remotely interested in replacing that production
=======================
I like TON, but he didn’t fit in our OF. Opening day will be Duran, Rafaela & Abreu. By the ASB, we might be looking at trading one of those three to bring Anthony in.
Of course, the outfield as constituted is too crowded already. I never expected to keep everyone, but I guess I wanted to see a bigger shakeup than the FO did this winter.
My preference for finding a way to squeeze in that veteran bat to upgrade the lineup would’ve been one of the following:
1. Trade Abreu for pitching and either sign Teoscar Hernandez or re-sign Tyler O’Neill on a shorter term, higher AAV deal with an opt out after year 1 or 2 so Anthony can take over once he’s ready and they can move on – Too late for that
2. Dump Yoshida for whatever you can get, move Devers to DH, and get Bregman or Arenado to play 3rd. Could maybe even kill two birds with one stone and attach Abreu to Yoshida in a trade and be able to get somebody with a pulse in return while still opening up RF for Anthony. This is theoretically still possible though they’ve publicly ruled it out, so looks like the ship has sailed here too barring a major surprise.
3. If they’re going to insist on keeping Devers on third (my least favorite idea, since we’re fantasizing here), could at least still dump Yoshida and go get Pete Alonso to play DH. If we’re going to roll with that big of a defensive negative at the hot corner, we need to compensate by having a bigger stick at DH imo. Slap hitting singles isn’t gonna cut it. I’ve never heard this floated by anyone well-connected as even being a possibility, so I know I’m completely dreaming on this one.
I was afraid of that. I had a feeling he was not that far along. If he was closer to returning maybe they could have found a taker. Hopefully he can at least provide some decent offense when he returns.
WCSoxFan – I disagree with the statement we don’t have anyone to back up Devers. First, the hot dog vendor could play defense better but if we lost Devers bat since he’s getting older and slowing down quickly, we have Story who could move over, Campbell who is comfortable playing there, Rafaela who has the athleticism to play there, Dalbec who never got a shot at playing there and so many other minor league guys that SOME DAY might be qualified, this is just another wasted move for unnecessary depth.
The goal of a GOOD or EXCELLENT team is to acquire back-ups with talent, not slugs who are cheap. The guy who steps in for Devers must be able to hit at the MLB level (Story, Campbell, Rafaela). They don’t have to be a great fielder since Devers is so incredibly bad ANYONE would be better defensively, including guys who have never played there before.
Think 13 hitters on the roster and realize there are four bench spots.
1 – Back up catcher
2 – Back up middle infielder
3 – Back up corner infielder
4 – Back up outfielder
As of today our back-up catcher is inadequate for a winning team. Our back-up middle infielder should be Grissom which is Boston’s gamble on his future being a good one so he’s an appropriate back-up. Our back-up 3B is unknown because ANYONE they name will put fear in Devers’ heart because he knows he doesn’t belong at 3B so NOBODY since 2017 has been allowed to prove how costly it is to have Devers at 3B. I don’t see that changing so the issue you point out is NOT ADDRESSED because of the fear that EVERYONE would realize just how much Devers costs us on a daily basis., especially the pitchers. The 4th outfielder will be Abreu once Anthony is promoted. So we have good depth in the outfield and middle infield but not at catcher or corner infield. Corner infield will not be addressed by Breslow since he won’t do the right thing for the club and move Devers to DH.
Bottom line, Toro is irrelevant to the success of the ball club.
Dalbec is now with the other Sox.
WCS – Grissom has experience at 3B, and of course Campbell when he’s promoted.
He would never displace his bat in the lineup, but a cinder block on wheels could displace Devers at 3b defensively..
GaSox – You complimented Devers? Has your account been hacked? ;O)
Toro is the typical all-glove no-hit insurance policy so that if a starting infielder goes down, they won’t be scrambling for a Araúz-type fill in.
He’s like Bag Zombroski (look him up), not good and not bad, just one of those players you may call up to be the last guy on the bench for a couple games. Like a can of chicken, you keep it on the shelf and you don’t even consider using it unless there’s a hurricane or blizzard going on and there’s nothing else in the house to eat and you’re starving.
Fever – I don’t dislike Devers the way I dislike Yoshida or Casas, I just feel he doesn’t belong at 3B.
In fact, I think it was TF/KD that I used to stand up for Devers a year or two ago, sort of, to the extent there were a couple outlier seasons that, with the help of egregious scoring, he was *close* to leave average fielding percentages.
However, of the former big three of Bogey, Devers, and Mookie, I was quite vocal in that the one I’d be most willing to let go was Devers.
Even with the recent salary inflation he is somewhat overpaid just because of the defensive liability and what he costs the pitching staff via being forced into the stretch, elevating pitch counts, leaving men on base to score, etc etc etc which doesn’t show directly in his stats either.
Of course, you’re free to chalk some of my generous attitude towards him to 2 weeks of lung infection and all the new treatments heaping on…. or chemo brain…. or ???
GaSox – I was just teasing of course! Everyone has certain players that frustrate them, your feelings towards Devers are justified.
I think most of us believed after Mookie was gone that both Devers and Xander would remain. I remember the debates surrounding the two though, a lot of people chose Devers because of his younger age. I refused to choose though, that’s like choosing between your kids ya know? I just couldn’t do it.
I totally agree Devers was way overpaid, I think everyone agrees with that. The fact he himself said he was surprised at how much was offered, that definitely indicates overpay. But similar to any employer, the last remaining longtimer usually gets treated the best. That’s just the way it works, when there’s nobody else left then you have all the leverage.
I’m so sorry to hear about the infection, is it gone now or are you still dealing with it? Despite all you’re going through you are still sharp as a tack my friend.
I have a niece who donated hair to a non-profit that uses it for chemo patients, there’s some really admirable organizations out there.
Fever – thanks for asking.
Actually still fighting it. Been a beast, on the upswing though. A lot of people around here have come down with something similar, and they fought it a week or more without the same side issues I have holding me back so in a twisted way that’s encouraging.
Would you appreciate the irony in that in my (much) younger years I grew the hair out twice to donate myself to be used for cancer patients?
I think its getting to a good time of the offseason perhaps we ought to do some informal polling about who in our mlbtr crowd might be interested in a ST meet up.
Even better the more of us who butt heads are in one place with a drink or two to debate in person, put faces with names.
GaSox – I’m not at all surprised you donated twice, because it’s something good guys do.
I’d be interested as I do ST every year, but I think anyone else who does would want to be discreet about it and so would I. Certain people I wouldn’t feel comfortable with because they took things too far, and maybe one or two wouldn’t want me there ;O)
Feel free to take the lead gauging interest, I’ll try to follow along as my notifications are hit or miss. I don’t recall others posting about attending games like I do, so I wouldn’t expect too many to be interested … worth a shot though.
Are you talking JetBlue only? Or possible Red Sox ST road games too?
The way JetBlue’s stock has been crashing (no pun intended), there may be a new ballpark name on the horizon for the Sox.
The beauty of it is, for the most part I feel folks don’t know eachothers real names. You get to be whoever you want, in person. Go by a first name, an alias, who cares.
Share a username, don’t share a username. I’ve had heated exchanges (I think) over time, we all have. Doesnt change the fact that, for the most part, we’re all passionate fans.
Beauty of it is just having a day enjoying nice weather and baseball.
GaSox – Without private messaging on this site, it’s tricky but I do know some ways around it.
I’ve been involved in this sort of thing before, we have to be careful.
For instance what if somebody else shows up and claims to be me?
What if somebody else shows up and claims to be you?
I’m guessing hundreds of people have already read these messages.
Fever, if someone showed up and claimed to be me i’ll watch em take doses of chemo twice a day at the game. If they want to experience that I say let em! LOL….
It’s an odd effort to make, we’ve done it so many times via car clubs and websites devoted to particular cars and I’ve never seen someone who took the time effort and expense to pretend to be anyone else. That’s some serious real estate to own rent free in their minds to make em try.
GASox – Just recently someone here posted where they *thought* I lived, pretty creepy. Over the past few years I’ve had to mute several accounts that created handles with my Fever Pitch Guy in them. I’ve been the subject of a few obsessions, not kidding.
But to your point, do those car club websites have PM’s? That’s how every other forum of mine has arranged these sort of things, via private messaging.
They have it, but, we just made an open thread. For example, the fiero group just put an open thread and sets up a tent at the gm nationals at carlisle every year. They have drinks and snacks on honor system to toss a few bucks in. People bring parts or manuals they don’t need and we hold a live auction on some, silent auction on others, and the money is just donated.
Last year saw around 80 cars plus guys who didn’t bring one and just came themselves.
Whole different situation. No tough guys, no doxxing behaviors. Even the automotive swap meets, whole different culture, it’s like stepping back 60 years in America.
Guys watch the neighboring spot of someone they’d never met before that weekend. Nobody steals. Sharing food, drinks. Totally different
GaSox – Well here’s my suggestion. Give it some time, see if anyone else here is seriously interested. If not, I’ll happily sign up with one of those car forums so we can message privately (please don’t post the forum name here)..
Okay I’m calling it a night, Maybe I’ll wake up to news the Sox finally got their RHB in Mark Canha ;O)
Great, now they don’t need Bregman!
They never really needed Bergman to be fair
@acell the Mets didn’t “need” Juan Soto but look how that turned out
Right now we have no idea how that move turned out. Also a 26 year old Soto is far more valuable then a declining 31 year old Bergman
Value is relative to the amount of improvement you get vs the person you displace.
Take for example, bregman into the devers/Yoshida mix.
Yoshida was a 1.4 war DH in ’24. Devers was a 3.7 war 3B in ’24.
Soto was a 7.9 war OF in ’24. Bregman was a 4.1 war 3B in ’24.
Abreu was 3.4 war, rafaela was 2.8 war, Duran was 8.7 war.
Arguably, if you signed Soto for his exorbitant price tag, you’d bump ceddane out of the mix and net a 5.1 war improvement.
However, if you signed bregman for HALF the aav of Soto, you would see Devers war rise because he wouldn’t be penalized his negative defensive value. Even after positional adjustment, I think it’s fair to judge Devers would’ve been worth about 4.8 war in 24 as a dh with no fielding. Thats a 3.4 war improvement over Yoshida. Then, you get to add the 4.1 war of bregman to that. Thats a 7.5 war improvement in production.
So, across the TEAM lineup, you’d register a 50% better improvement from adding bregman than Soto, at half the investment.
That’s where the bloom years were such a failure in the roster construction, which, still has logjams after year one of breslow.
The most expensive, highest performing player doesn’t always equal the greatest positive impact to your ballclub.
You can dicker over what Devers as a dh would’ve been worth, but, the overall net improvement is going to be higher getting a glove out there at 3b vs soto, not to mention what it does as far as keeping pitchers out of the stretch, baserunning off the paths, lowering pitch counts, etc etc…
The gist being, 1 player for $700 million? I don’t think any team “needs” to do that
The value is that Soto is a player on the rise whose offensive profile is that of a a hall of fame player vs Bregman who’s on the decline offensively and could be headed that way defensively too.
If that’s the case then the sox don’t need to spend $200 million on a 3B especially one like Bregman
Ace – Agreed! Bregman will cost $25 to $30 million per year, so the comparison with a player making MLB minimum is pretty different.
And the Sox didn’t “need” Trevor Story and look how that turned out, what’s your point?
What’s your point is a better question.
GA- Interesting analysis of the potential value someone like Bregman could have. Never thought of it like that. Great way to interpret the upside of a move. I think initially I was hoping the Red Sox would get Soto no matter how much he cost, because we could say look what the Sox did. It has been so long since they were throwing money around like the Yankees, Mets, and Dodgers, you just long for it even if it would be a complete waste of money.
The only problem with Soto is he very well could be starting his decline half way through his contract and you still owe him over $350 million. He could also catch the injury bug and be lost for a couple of years in his prime. Yes, Bregman may be starting to decline but he is only 4 years older and at 30 he could turn things back around on a different team. If he was 37, I would agree that he is done.
Not that I am saying he is the best option, but he does bring veteran experience and solid defense. I think the number of years he gets will be the deciding factor. If the Sox were really in on him I think he would have been signed by now, so we can likely move on from him. I expect him to end up back in Houston.
acell10 – Bregman or another real 3B is needed and that’s been obvious since 2017!! The trick is to move Devers. Without him moving, Arenado or Bregman or Mike Schmidt won’t be allowed to play 3B and that’s the Achilles Heel of the Boston Red Sox.
KD17: I have no problem moving Devers off 3rd. I have a problem paying Bregman or trading for Arenado and paying that contract when both players have excited their primes and have shown clear signs of decline.
Acell10 – Arenado is owed $52Million in cash for 3 years. That’s $17.3Million per year. That’s less than Giolioto who didn’t even play. Arenado should not be a money issue but clearly Bregman would be and I agree he’s not a good answer.
KD 17: and Gioloti is only paid for one more season. THat’s still too much money to be handing to Arrenado unless the cards are picking up a larger portion of that tab.
acell10 – I only pointed out Giolito because he was a waste of more money than Arenado would be receiving. From a value perspective, Arenado is worth more than Devers as a 3B and Story but is probably less valuable than Casas, Campbell, Duran and Anthony. If Devers moves to DH then he becomes more valuable than Arenado so talent is maximized and cost is below the AAV Breslow is willing to pay. It’s a huge win-win to get Arenado. Remember, they aren’t spending over $21Million for a player and $17.3Million works within the plan.
Nice move. Toro covers a lot of grass, some say he runs like a Deere
I’ve heard they say he charges grounders like a bull.
The real problem will be anger management with all those red sox running around him and in the dugout….
The Riding Lawnmower
What’s on second.
As Bugs Bunny would say: “What a gulla bull!” What a nin cow poop!”
Mayer is talking about taking reps in the OF at AAA. I still think he should be getting reps at 1b/3b to begin the yr, Once Story is gone he can be the regular SS. This will allow him to be on the 26 with Story and still get AB’s along with Campbell /Grissom et al.
Mayer does not need to take reps at 1B. he’s is an above average defender at SS and would be wasted at 1B. If anything he’d be fine at 3B or the OF.
Acell10 = The data suggests his .950 fielding percentage in the minors as a SS IS NOT above average. He’s very far below average as a fielder which is one of many issues I have with his skill set. Check his hitting, we have several better hitters who have shown better numbers in the minors including Campbell, Anthony, Casas, Rafaela, Meidroth. They all have outperformed him at hitting.
Thus the scouting report based on PERFORMANCE not opinion, is that his defense is below league average and his offense is not representative of a guy who went 4th in the draft in 2021.
His minor league career so far shows:
.274/.362/.465/.828 with 42 errors at SS and a .949 fielding percentage. But he has stolen 46 out of 54 bases in his 272 game minor league career.
For comparison purposes:
Campbell drafted in 4th round (not pick) in 2023 (two years later)
.327/.439/.546/.986 with
4 errors at 2B and a fielding percentage of .979 in 51 games
3 errors at SS and a fielding percentage of .971 in 36 games
0 errors at 3B and a fielding percentage of 1.000 in 5 games
Has stolen 27 of 38 bases in his 137 minor league games.
The numbers explain why I believe Campbell is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Mayer and it has nothing to do with what GM selected him it has EVERYTHING to do with PERFORMANCE.
Campbell blows away Mayer and Mayer should try to start looking for a new position based on Campbell being far more qualified at SS than Mayer. Some folks will tell you he’s played more at 2B so he’s a better fit there. That’s BS and you can see from the REAL numbers he’s merely played 15 more games at 2B than SS and in the scope of things, THAT IS NOTHING!!!
Campbell is literally the best SS, 3B and 2B in the organization and as such belongs at SS for the rest of his career since that’s the most demanding and critical position of the three.
KD17: As has been well established at this point Fielding percentage is the most biased non objective way to evaluate a players defense. You have continuously railed against the official scorer at Fenway for giving players like Devers a break for that very reason. A statue could have a 100% percentage but would still be a horrible defender if they had no range. You know this. .
Fixating on one number because you think it supports your argument doesn’t make you right. While Campbell is a capable defender at 2B and maybe the OF Mayer is superior defender it isn’t really debatable.
Acell10 – Who established the fielding percentage comment you made? That’s an opinion not a fact.
Explain it’s bias because I have gone into great depths why metrics are grossly inaccurate and I did it with facts not just comments. If you are pointing to the “cheating” that is going on with regard to Devers as a reason the fielding percentage is inaccurate, you have a very fair point. The current trend is to over estimate the fielding percentages by ignoring true errors and that is a HUGE issue. BUT, when we talk about a bad fielder and go into how bad they are we are doing it in a conservative way because their fielding percentage is actually OVER ESTIMATED not under estimated. The bias you reference is a fair one but the net result is we don’t focus on how good a person is by fielding percentage we highlight the fact that someone is bad and technically worse than the fielding percentage suggests.
That’s why seeing performance stats that have huge differences like Campbell vs Mayer on defense, you can be assured Campbell is the far better fielder. The numbers probably don’t reflect how big the difference is because of the bias you pointed out. That’s a very strong argument for Campbell over Mayer.
We have no idea like you said whether Mayer is a good outfielder versus the rest of the Boston outfielders. It may be something he could be great at or not. Until he has some performance stats, it’s a guess. What’s not a guess is his .949 fielding percentage which could actually be worse representing his minor league defensive performance. Remember, Devers minor league fielding percentage was .941 which is only 8 points lower than Mayer. That speaks volumes to how bad Mayer is on defense. Also, remember Campbell played nearly the same number of games at 2B and SS in the minors and his SS fielding percentage was 22 points higher than Mayer’s fielding percentage. That’s a massive difference when it comes to fielding percentage.
Mayer is 8 points higher than Devers minor league numbers and 22 points lower than Campbell’s. These are facts not me picking on Mayer. He owns the numbers.
Baseball has been around a very long time. The experts have always understood the importance of fielding a ball and accurately throwing it to get an out. That’s NOT changed since 1871. To suggest something is more important than that with regard to defense is blasphemy. It defies the fundamentals of the game. Performance should dictate a players skills because a perfect body, with great speed, a huge arm and great eye sight is all reflected in performance. Some players effectively use their god given skills and some don’t. The answer is in their performance stats..
I don’t know if it makes him a SS for the rest of his career, but all these teams playing these prospects all over the diamond simply makes it look like they are hedging their bets. If the player is good at SS, let him get reps and get even better. Don’t work to turn him into utility, just in case.
KD: you’re relying on a subjective measure to determine fielding acumen. I’ve explained why fielding percentage is a poor measure as have many before hand. Times have changed so relying on measures that were established over 150 years ago when the game has evolved isn’t as effective anymore. It just shows a lack of ability to evolve ones thinking and understand how the modern game is played and analyzed.
acell10 = Smart people don’t evolve to weaker, more inaccurate solutions. No offense but your non critical factors are immeasurable with any type of accuracy. I’ve explained this so many times and not having played the game has paralyzed your thinking. Evolving theories need to improve results and that’s not the case with fielding metrics. That’s a universal opinion by people who played and understand the game, not the kids that grew up on their Playstations.
There is a couple of generations of very ignorant fans thanks to video games. They can’t even relate to the concepts being preached by the knowledgeable experts of baseball.
If you want advice on pitching I’ll take Smoltz over a nerd who played MLB video games as a kid.
That is the difference between you and me. The measurements established in baseball 150 years ago are still valid. The contrived crap your generation is spewing is just people trying to get 15 minutes of fame without putting in the effort to know the sport. You can tell an ignorant fan because they are the ones that say “Batting Average doesn’t matter” or “Fielding Percentage doesn’t matter”. They believe bastardized estimation involving normalized distances, conditions and speeds are all that matter. They at best are tie breakers when all REAL data is comparable between two players. The real performance data is ALL that matters because it determined the results that exist. No hypotheticals, just the facts.
For me, I see you, with your head up your hind quarters, seeing the future and it’s not it’s just crap that you see. There is no basis of fact in the new metrics. The metrics were INVENTED not derived from a need because the measurements are irrelevant without stats. How fast a guy is will never be more important than whether he can field successfully. How fast he swings a bat will never be more important than getting a hit. Trying to evolve the fundamentals of the game is a generational error that feeds the ego of the generation but has nothing to do with improving the measurements of the game, the STATS. Metrics are trivia that occurred but has no reflection on what will occur in the future.
MLB-1971 – Explain how a guy with a .949 fielding percentage is an above average SS? That’s a totally ignorant comment. The facts clearly show he sucks. Not quite as much as Devers but way closer than anyone could have imagined.
Performance stats don’t lie. They didn’t with Devers and they haven’t with Mayer. Two guys who can’t field at a MLB level.
Mayer is ranked 88th now. That alone should tell you that I’ve been right about him since he was drafted. Could have had Cowser, could have had Lawler who is much higher ranked, could have had Matt McLain, and of course we could have had Jackson Merrill.
MLB=1971 and acell10 – Here is a fun fact for both of you.
Mayer has yet to make the MLB team as the 4th pick in the draft. You know who has made the majors already?
The Seattle Mariners 20th round pick Troy Taylor. By round from 20 t0 1 here are how many players beat Mayer to the majors from the 2021 draft.
20 – 1
19 – 1
18 – 1
17 – 1
16 -1
15 – 1
14 – 1
13 – 1
12 – 2
11 – 4
10 – 2
9 – 0
8 – 2
7 – 5
6 – 8
5 – 5
4 = 6
3 – 5
2 – 11
1 – 16
TOTAL = 74 players have beat Mayer to the MLB from his draft class!!!! Wow, what a stud he must be considering he was the 4th pick!!!
Bloom has been lauded for his draft picks like Mayer. What a complete joke. Remember how Boston has needed SPs since Bloom arrived? Here is who he passed on in the 2021 draft.
Sam Bachman
Kumar Rocker !!
Michael McGreevey
Jordan Wicks !!
Gavin Williams !!
Ty Madden
Jaden Hill
Ky Bush
Andrew Abbott !!
Spencer Swellenbach !!
Robert Gasser
Mason Black
Sean Burke
Dylan Dodd
Mason Miller !!!!!!
Cade Povich
Bryce Miller !!
Jackson Wolf
Nick Nastrini
Chayce McDermott
Evan Justice
Christian Scott
Gordon Graceffo
Tanner Bibee !!!!!
Ben Casparius
Bryan Woo !!!!!!!!!!!
Carlos Rodriguez !!
Spencer Arrighetti
Richard Fitts (we got him from the Yankees)
Grant Holman
Mason Montgomery
Emmet Sheehan !!!!!!!
That’s just through the first 6 rounds!!! Bloom was horrible at drafting, that’s why our farm system is going to be bare once Anthony and Campbell join the Red Sox.
Personally, I sure wish Bloom the genius had selected Mason Miller instead of a bad 2B named Tyler McDonough in the 3rd round. Tyler hasn’t hit over .250 since he was in A ball in 2021!! But I bet Bruin1012 can tell you why he’s a great prospect. Maybe his bat velocity is fast or maybe his fielding is really smooth or he has a plus arm or some other meaningless trait that constantly over rates the Boston Farm System. Nope Bloom was terrible and we are paying for it now. Hopefully Breslow’s players will pan out better.
KD 17:I’ve played the game I just don’t subscribe to archaistic thinking. Just because you don’t find value in newer statistics doesn’t mean they aren’t valuable.
Also plenty of people who played the game use new metrics to assess data and plenty of players have spoken about using launch angles and exit velocities to measure their success. What you don’t seem to realize is that new metrics augment the old ones and improve on them. Not being stuck in the past and using subjective measurements to make assessments isn’t having ones head up their butt. It shows a higher level of understanding that some people don’t have.
So a high school player didn’t make it to the majors as fast as a college player is basically what this list says.
By your logic Dombrowski must suck at drafting because Andrew Painter hasn’t made it to the majors yet.
Ace – Agreed. Mayer is an above average SS. He could be used at 3B if Devers eventually moves to DH. The outfield is already crowded in Boston, so I would be surprised if Mayer spends much time in the outfield. For the beginning of the 2025 season, Mayer will be in AAA Worcester as he was injured in 2024 after he was promoted to AAA, and received no At Bats in AAA.
Saw Toro when he came up briefly for the Brewers. Believe there was a minor injury at third for a week or so. Seemed ML ready and stepped in and contributed in a short window.
Since Gonzalez and Toro are basically the same player this is nothing but a depth move
Rsox – RomGon can pound LHP, Toro can’t cut it against any pitchers that have at least one arm.
True
They need guys to fill out the Worcester roster
Bobby – How many are on it as of today? Can you explain how each level of the farm system fills out it’s roster? Does Breslow do that? Or should he be focused on the MLB roster while others fill the lower level players?
Alright! We replaced O’Neils power production from last year, sadly it took toro’s whole career to do it!
The vaunted RH bat we’ve been waiting for! Oh wait. Breslow and Co. are at it again……will be another thing they do not come through on. It is beyond tough to be lied to these last few years. We will contend! The goal is to win 90 plus games and make the playoffs! Remember when it was win the WS, that’s no longer a goal with this ownership, attempting to say we will make the playoffs is good enough now. So sad. We will go full throttle for the fan base! And then this year, have basically talked the talk on any good FA out there and here we are 2 weeks from Spring Training with yet another offseason of signing has beens, are nobody’s, will be nobody’s, injury prone, coming off an injury or are soon to be injured. Bargain shopping for banged up players isn’t going to build you a contending team. You say you don’t want to give out big contracts? Well this is what you get and when you are not even making the playoffs, guess what Henry and Breslow? YOU ARE PISSING AWAY MONEY. It is really tough to watch this ownership group have zero expectations now. Basically it’s hey fans here’s a team we scrapped together. Come watch us for crazy prices still at Fenway while we claw our way to try and win 80 games. It’s a disgrace. At this point I’m more excited to just be at Fenway than watch them “try” to build a team.
Mariners Legend signs with Bo Sox.
Bring that bull!