The Hall of Fame announced the results of this year’s Baseball Writers Association of America voting. Ichiro, CC Sabathia and Billy Wagner topped the 75% threshold for induction. They’ll join Dick Allen and Dave Parker in the 2025 class. Allen and Parker were elected by the Classic Baseball Era committee at the Winter Meetings. Ichiro appeared on 99.7% of the ballots, falling one vote shy of unanimity.
Two of the three inductees, Ichiro and Sabathia, get into Cooperstown on their first year. Wagner gets in on his 10th and final opportunity. He’d fallen just a percentage point shy last winter and jumped beyond an 82% vote share with the writers having their last chance to elect him.
Ichiro starred in his home country before making the move to the big leagues during the 2000-01 offseason. He signed a three-year deal with the Mariners and immediately became one of the best players in franchise history. Ichiro led the majors with 242 hits and 56 stolen bases. He hit .350 to win the AL batting title at the top of a loaded Seattle lineup. The ’01 Mariners won 116 games and remain the greatest regular season team in MLB history. They lost a five-game Championship Series to the Yankees.
That was one of the best debut seasons ever. Ichiro was an All-Star and won a Silver Slugger and Gold Glove award in right field. He not only coasted to the Rookie of the Year award but narrowly surpassed Jason Giambi to win the MVP. He joined Fred Lynn as the only rookies to be named the Most Valuable Player.
While that’d be the only time that Ichiro finished top five in MVP balloting, he was the game’s best pure hitter for a decade. He topped 200 hits with an average north of .300 in each of his first 10 seasons. He had arguably his best year in 2004, when he led the majors with a .372 average and tallied a career-high 262 hits. Ichiro was a menace on the bases throughout his prime, topping 30 stolen bases on 10 occasions. He was also the sport’s best defensive right fielder, pairing plus range with an elite arm and twice leading the AL in outfield assists.
An incredibly durable player, Ichiro topped 150 games played in 13 seasons. He led the majors in hits seven times and was selected to the All-Star Game in each of his first 10 years. Ichiro remained an excellent player through his age-36 season. He played all the way until age 45, seeing action with the Yankees and Marlins. Ichiro collected his 3000th career hit while he was playing for Miami, doing it in style with a triple against Colorado’s Chris Rusin at Coors Field. Ichiro returned to Seattle for the end of his career, capping it off in a two-game series between the Mariners and A’s in front of Japanese fans at the Tokyo Dome to kick off the 2019 season.
Ichiro finished his major league career as a .311 hitter who tallied 3089 hits. That’d be a remarkable achievement for any player but is especially impressive for one who spent a few of his prime-aged seasons in NPB and didn’t make his major league debut until he was 27. Ichiro was never a huge power threat in games, though many believe that he could’ve been an impact power bat had he prioritized that over elite pure hitting ability. In any case, he concluded with 117 career homers and stole more than 500 bases. He won 10 Gold Gloves and three Silver Slugger awards.
Sabathia was a first-round pick by the Indians in 1998. He was in the majors within three years of being selected out of high school. He won 17 games during his rookie season and finished as the runner-up behind Ichiro in ’01 Rookie of the Year voting. The southpaw was a durable mid-rotation arm for Cleveland for the first few seasons of his career. He earned consecutive All-Star nods in 2003 and ’04.
While he was on track for a very good major league career, Sabathia didn’t look like a future Hall of Famer. That changed in the second half of the 2000s. Sabathia turned in a 3.22 ERA over 28 starts in 2006. He cemented himself as the game’s top workhorse the following year. Sabathia led the majors with 241 innings across 34 starts in ’07. He topped 200 strikeouts for the first time and turned in a 3.21 ERA while winning 19 games. He earned his third All-Star selection and won the Cy Young. He helped the Indians to the postseason for the first time in six years, though he struggled in two starts in the ALCS as they were knocked off by the Red Sox.
Cleveland wasn’t on a playoff track in 2008. Sabathia was an impending free agent whom the Indians had no expectation of re-signing. They traded him to the Brewers a few weeks before the deadline for a prospect package led by Matt LaPorta. While LaPorta didn’t work out, the unheralded acquisition of Michael Brantley as a “lesser” piece of that deal had a huge impact on Cleveland baseball.
Sabathia’s stint in Milwaukee was brief but could hardly have gone better. The southpaw had a legendary second half, winning 11 games with a 1.65 ERA in 17 starts. Sabathia remarkably completed seven of those starts and recorded three shutouts. He more or less carried Milwaukee to a 90-win season and a Wild Card berth, though they were bounced by the eventual champion Phillies in the Division Series. Sabathia finished that year with a career-high 253 innings and 251 strikeouts with a 2.70 earned run average. He finished fifth in NL Cy Young voting even though he spent half the season in the American League.
The following offseason, Sabathia signed with the Yankees on a seven-year, $161MM megadeal. He tossed 230 innings of 3.37 ERA ball and won an MLB-best 19 games in his first season. He followed up with a 1.98 ERA across five postseason starts, winning the ALCS MVP award while helping the Yanks to their 27th World Series title. Sabathia would respectively win 21 and 19 games over the next two years, topping 230 innings with a low-3.00s ERA in both. He finished in the top four in Cy Young voting in each of his first three seasons in pinstripes.
He earned his final All-Star nod in 2012 and reached 200 innings for the last time in ’13. Sabathia remained in the Bronx on a series of short-term deals after the expiration of his first free agent contract. He was a capable back-end starter until his retirement in 2019. Sabathia finished his career with nearly 3600 innings over parts of 19 seasons. He posted a 3.74 ERA, won 251 games, and recorded more than 3000 strikeouts. His 3093 punchouts rank 18th on the all-time leaderboard.
Wagner is the ninth primary reliever to earn the call from Cooperstown. A first-round pick of the Astros in 1993, he would spend the majority of his career in Houston. Wagner debuted in ’95 and earned his first handful of saves the following year. He was Houston’s full-time closer by ’97, when he saved 23 games with a 2.85 ERA over 66 1/3 innings.
The hard-throwing lefty reached 30 saves for the first time in his career the ensuing season. He followed up with a sterling 1.57 ERA while striking out 124 hitters across 74 2/3 frames in 1999. Wagner picked up 39 saves, earned his first All-Star nod, and landed fourth in Cy Young voting. He was named MLB’s best reliever that season.
He struggled in 2000 but rebounded with a dominant three-season stretch to close his Astros tenure. Wagner topped 60 innings with at least 35 saves while allowing an ERA of 2.73 or better in each season between 2001-03. He was selected to two more All-Star Games over that stretch. Wagner had arguably his best year in ’03. He led the majors with 67 games finished while turning in a 1.78 earned run average. Wagner struck out 105 batters — one of four career seasons in which he topped the century mark — while throwing a career-best 86 innings.
The Astros traded Wagner to Philadelphia over the 2003-04 offseason. While his first season with the Phillies was shortened by injury, he posted a 1.51 ERA with 38 saves across 77 2/3 innings in ’05. He inked a four-year free agent deal with the Mets the following offseason. Wagner earned two more All-Star selections while posting a cumulative 2.37 ERA over three and a half seasons in Queens. He had a strong month in Boston after an August ’09 trade.
Wagner returned to free agency and signed a one-year contract with the Braves. He finished his career in style, posting a 1.43 ERA with 37 saves across 69 1/3 innings at age 38. Wagner punched out 104 hitters en route to his seventh and final All-Star nod. He finished his career with a 2.31 ERA over 903 innings. Wagner recorded nearly 1200 strikeouts and ranks eighth all-time with 422 saves. He struck out a massive 33.2% of opposing hitters over a career spanning parts of 16 seasons.
Opponents of his Hall of Fame case have pointed to his lack of a postseason track record. Wagner indeed struggled in October, allowing 13 runs in 11 2/3 playoff innings over seven seasons. That’s an extremely small sample, though, and his regular season performance was remarkably consistent despite the volatility of most relief pitchers. Wagner had a sub-3.00 ERA in all but one season and reached 30 saves on nine occasions.
Carlos Beltrán and Andruw Jones find themselves within shouting distance of induction. Beltrán appeared on 70.3% of ballots in his third year of eligibility. That’s a marked jump from last year’s approximate 57% vote share, giving him a solid chance at election next offseason. Jones appeared on 66.2% of ballots, up around five points from last winter. He has two more seasons of eligibility.
No one else received a vote share of 40% or higher. Aside from Ichiro and Sabathia, the only first-time candidates who reached the 5% cutoff necessary to stay on the ballot were Félix Hernández (20.6%) and Dustin Pedroia (11.9%). Wagner was the only person in his final year of eligibility. No returning candidates dropped below a 5% vote share, so the only players who fell off the ballot were the first-time candidates who received minimal support.
The big question of next year’s class is whether Beltrán and (less likely) Jones will be elected. Manny Ramírez will be entering his final year of eligibility and is likely to drop off the ballot after receiving around 34% of the vote this year. Cole Hamels leads the crop of first-ballot players in what’ll likely be a smaller class than this year’s group of inductees.
Full voting breakdown available via the BBWAA. Images courtesy of USA Today Sports.
TheYankeesFan99
Congrats!!!
roob
Who is the Ahole that didn’t vote for Ichiro?
Pronklington
Probably that Philly writer that explains his HOF ballot on here. It’s always awful. He’s a huge idiot.
The Krukker
Nope. Probably some bed wetting Yankee coddler who couldn’t handle Ichiro getting the same respect as Mariano.
hiflew
What difference does it make whether he got 100% or 99.7%? They aren’t going to make him sweep up afterwards at the induction ceremony because he didn’t get everyone’s vote.
Hell, with the disagreeable nature of people nowadays, just getting 51% of anything should be considered a miracle. Just appreciate that is a Hall of Famer and forget about the minutia and white noise of stuff that doesn’t really matter.
VegasMoved
Yeah, I don’t really get why this is such a crime to some people. That one vote literally changes nothing.
deepseamonster32
It means everything because it means the only player to be unanimous is a failed starting pitcher, making the Hall of Fame look completely stupid.
VegasMoved
How does that change anything?
deepseamonster32
It makes the voters look stupid, because there’s 100 players more deserving than a failed starter
SkenesandSlopes
The difference is the fact that a sportswriter covering baseball for decades basically made a case that Ichiro is not a Hall of Famer. If that sits well with you then all the power to you. I do not know if there is a good argument to keep Ichiro off the ballot considering the depth of players to choose from. Especially from a so-called expert that has the privilege to vote based on years of service.
VegasMoved
Ok, so now they would be 100 players more deserving that a failed starter and an outfielder. What has changed?
VegasMoved
But what difference does that have on…. anything? Do you recall George Brett’s hall of fame vote total? Do you even care? What about Tony Gwynn? Or Pedro Martinez? These were all slam dunk cases that failed to get 100% of the vote. Do you care about those?
Of course not, they’re all hall of famers, and that’s all anyone remembers.
deepseamonster32
George Brett deserved 100%! Certainly more than a failed starting pitcher!!
VegasMoved
Yep… and that fact that Brett failed to get 100% changed literally nothing. It’s almost as if it’s not worth getting upset about.
SkenesandSlopes
Not sure which one of the odd comments is for me, however you are missing the major point. The baseball writers are doing a disservice to the game and the Hall of Fame by the way they vote. George Brett, you ask? I remember he did not get 100% of the vote. He should have. Same with Yount and Ryan who were inducted with him. In fact, both Carlton Fisk and Gary Carter should have been inducted as well.
The very same writers who knowingly protected players using PEDs only to pretend they did not know, punishing them when it came to the Hall of Fame. That aside, a player is either a Hall of Famer or not. Vote properly.
wayneroo
I’d just like to know who didn’t think he deserved it. Whoever it was is an idiot.
SkenesandSlopes
wayneroo, exactly! It makes all the difference in the world if that writer has a vote for life.
Carcass Melancholy
Exactly. Ridiculous. Griffey, no not worthy. The HOF is a joke.
KnicksFanCavsFan
@hi
The difference is nevertheless he’s clearly a HOF and the no vote is because they feel like they need to separate the Babe Ruth’s and Ted Williams from those that are clearly amazing but not, in there eyes, the historically perceived top 1%. It’s silly. Petty.
deepseamonster32
Babe Ruth and Ted Williams didn’t get 100%! It’s an absurd tradition that should’ve ended probably by Jackie Robinson, and there’s several dozen more since!
But, nooooo, the failed starter can only get 100%.
VegasMoved
In spite of that convoluted thought…. Ichiro is now a hall of famer, and the way this one guy voted had no impact on that. Go back to yelling at clouds.
emt126
You are a moron.
deepseamonster32
Great point, emt. That really drives the conversation. I’m glad an adult like you can really help everybody understand the issues!
Best Screenname Ever
Somehow I don’t think the hysteria over one vote is because people are concerned for the reputation of the BBWAA writers. Instead, I think it’s an opportunity to exaggerate the significance of a minor circumstance
The Usual Suspect
@ Skenes. I hear you, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that voter doesn’t think Ichiro is a HOFer. Some voters get hung up on whether someone is a first ballot HOFer, which is still an utterly ridiculous position to take. Either someone is in the voter’s opinion a HOFer or they’re not. I get the outrage regardless.
Scott Kliesen
It didn’t take that vote to make the HOF look stupid. They literally have several KKK level racists there, but refuse to honor some of the best who ever played because they were doing something the majority of players were doing in 90/00’s.
JPR
Good grief.
gramuna12
Every reliever is a failed starting pitcher according to you. Just happens to be the best reliever of all time.
He also wasn’t really a failed starter. During the 1995 season, due to depth, he was tried as a reliever and was lights out in the ALDS. Was he a dominate starter? Nope, but he also didn’t develop his cutter yet.
Yankee Clipper
Scott K: Although the KKK issue is a major moral issue, I think the difference is that, unlike PEDs, membership in the KKK did not help them cheat to better performance, better health, or better recovery.
In short, it’s a valid argument to keep people out who were/are part of extremist groups/movements based on the immorality of their actions, but I don’t think you can compare that to keeping players out that cheated at the game of baseball.
Keep in mind, I’m not making an argument for or against the PED-era guys here, nor equating their actions on a moral scale; rather, I’m just making an observation about the comparison between the two groups of people as it relates to baseball.
high_upside
It’s just funny. Everyone agrees on ichiro expect one dude. It would be funny to know who and hear the reason. “I dunno I just didn’t care for him. Can’t put my finger on it.”
high_upside
It’s just funny. If it had been 10% instead of one vote it wouldn’t be a thing. It’s entertaining
deepseamonster32
His ERA was 5.94 as a starter. Looks like a failure.
From 1989 to 2006, Randy Johnson threw at least 84 innings 17 years. In his 19 seasons, Rivera threw more than 84 innings once.
Randy would’ve been a dominant closer (he pitched the last 3 innings of that 1995 ALDS, just like he did in Game 7 of the 2001 WS), but he was a dominant starter. But he doesn’t get 100%? It’s ridiculous. Starting is so much more valuable than closing!
Scott Kliesen
@YankeeClipper: The Steroid era ruined the HOF. Not in the way some may think though. It ruined the HOF because it made writers, who at best were accomplices for the crimes against baseball during Steroid era by not doing their job, into judges and juries of who did and didn’t partake in taking PED’s. A job I can guarantee they have no chance of doing accurately.
That’s what made HOF dumb, not Mariano Rivera unanimous selection.
Yankee Clipper
Scott, that’s well said man. Can’t disagree with your perspective on those points.
KnicksFanCavsFan
@deep
I just used them as an example
BPax
I’m an M’s fan and saw Ichiro’s Seattle career up close. I’m not upset that he wasn’t unanimous. If Jeter or Griffey weren’t unanimous to name two, so it goes with Ichiro.
deepseamonster32
Personally, I’m irritated that they did it for a failed reliever, and now we’re back to this stuff again about one jerk voter.
If Rivera had been the icebreaker, and Ichiro was the 5th unanimous, OK. But to backslide to the HoF’s historic stupidity? That’s why I’m advocating the voter be charged with a Capital Crime!
emt126
A failed starter, a failed reliever. Go back to sleep, it is nap time. Let the adults discuss this.
deepseamonster32
Don’t condescend at this adult over a typo. Real man you are lol.
Hope you get the same fate I’m hoping for for this voter.
Best Screenname Ever
Babe Ruth wasn’t unanimous. 37 people didn’t vote for Walter Johnson. I’ll live knowing that one person didn’t vote for Ichiro.
LordD99
It’s almost assuredly the same writer who didn’t vote for Jeter. Maybe he’s submitting a blank ballot?
CarverAndrews
Wow – there are so many people that get their noses out of joint for the smallest of reasons on here. This is a bunch of sportswriters that are voting for HoF induction – this is not major league baseball running the show. To expect 100% agreement is just about as silly as it can be.
ronnyalton
For real
LouWhitakerHOF
Ichiro Suzuki: 393 votes, 99.7% CC Sabathia: 342 votes, 86.8% Billy Wagner: 325 votes, 82.5% Carlos Beltrán: 277 votes, 70.3% Andruw Jones: 261 votes, 66.2% Chase Utley: 157 votes, 39.8% Alex Rodriguez: 146 votes, 37.1% Manny Ramirez: 135 votes, 34.3% Andy Pettitte: 110 votes, 27.9% Felix Hernández: 81 votes, 20.6% Bobby Abreu: 77 votes, 19.5% Jimmy Rollins: 71 votes, 18% Omar Vizquel: 70 votes, 17.8% Dustin Pedroia: 47 votes, 11.9% Mark Buehrle: 45 votes, 11.4% Francisco Rodriguez: 40 votes, 10.2% David Wright: 32 votes, 8.1% Torii Hunter: 20 votes, 5.1%
DarkSide830
Godo stuff, no complaints. Andruw is hopefully in soon.
RunDMC
Yeah, no complaints. Very happy for Billy. I wish Andruw could soon join him.
Zerbs63
Andruw Jones? No way didn’t even have 2000 hits, 0 rings, and was a below avg player at age 30.
johnrealtime
Now mention the other parts. Generational defensive talent at CF. 434 HR, .823 career OPS. He even has more career WAR than Ichiro, if you care for that metric
He’ll get in IMO, being at 66% with 2 years left. Though I do think he is borderline
Gobraves88
434 homers one of the greatest defensive player of all time I think he deserves to get in. But I am a little biased because I’m a Braves fan.
smkelly1970
Jones’ case is interesting to me because it could well influence the eventual case of Mike Trout, who, to me, is a bonafide HOF’r, but whose numbers (hits and honers, for example) could end up very similar to Jones’ – save Trout’s ROY and 3 AL MVPs (can argue that he should have 5 or even 6)- if he can’t stay healthy.
horaceallen
Trout is a lock.
The Usual Suspect
@ Zerb63. Ted Williams had zero rings. So? The rest if the stuff you mention is pertinent. The rings? Not so much. Lots of bench guys have rings.
BKS1110
He’s the best defensive CF in history and by a laughable margin. No one else comes close, not even Mays. If you’re going to let in Designated Hitters who don’t even play defense at all, you have to let in the top 10 best defensive players in history…and Jones was also an above-average hitter with 400+ home runs.
outinleftfield
At age 30 he was a 3.0 WAR player, which is above average. If you had said age 31 you would be correct. That would not disqualify him from HOF consideration.
Rings have nothing to do with HOF qualifications. Neither do # of hits unless the number is just so staggeringly high that its an automatic.
outinleftfield
Trout is an automatic, 1st ballot, absolute no-doubter. If he retired today his WAR is 24 higher than Jones and his WAR is the 5th highest all time for an OF.
luclusciano
Agreed – other than Ichiro not being unanimous.
DarrenDreifortsContract
Andruw was a lifetime .254 hitter and 5 time all star.
Why exactly should he be in the HOF?
sosaspelledbackwardsisasos
Uh… maybe 10 Gold Gloves and 400+ HR’s??? If he was half as productive in his 30s, he would already be in
DarrenDreifortsContract
isn’t 500 the magical number?
vinc3nt3
Juice
Simm
Someone said he hit some homers and played some defense.
Braves Butt-Head
10 gold gloves, youngest player ever to hit a world series home run 434 home runs 62.7 WAR.
There’s players with far worse resumes on the HOF.
hiflew
There are also players with resumes that are as good that didn’t even get past the first ballot like Jim Edmonds..
Non Roster Invitee
Lol gold gloves.
Ezpkns34
I’d be fine with Jones and Edmonds in the HOF, so I don’t get the argument
outinleftfield
Edmonds – 60.4 WAR. 42.6 7 Yr Peak WAR. 393 HR. His resume is not as good. Close, but not as good.
hiflew
Except Edmonds is not going to get into the Hall. I doubt he ever even gets on the veteran’s ballot at all. So do you get it now?
DarkSide830
Again, I can’t spell. Congrats Godo Baseball Club I guess?
wifflemeister
Way to go, Wags!
About time
johncoltrane
congrats ichiro, cc sabathia, and billy wagner! totally worthy of the hall!
especially ichiro, what a pleasure to watch him play . he’s 1 of those guys that you rooted for always. he was a thrill to watch
johncoltrane
absurd that ichiro isnt unanimous!
AfterBobo
A glove supreme!
shark stitches
The person who didn’t vote Ichiro better have not voted for anyone.
FenwayFanatic
He voted for someone. There were no blank ballots
slund24
he voted for 10 people and not one of them was Ichiro. Probably the same dude that didnt vote for Griffey.
VegasMoved
If they voted for 10 people I at least get it. Probably thought “Ichiro is getting in either way, let me use that vote on someone who really needs it.”
slund24
thats stupid logic. You get 10 votes and you should vote for the 10 guys that you feel should be in HOF. Not on someone you probably didnt vote for in the past but are only voting for now because they need the help. If you’re not voting for Griffey or Ichirio you’re basically saying there are 10 guys on that ballot you believe are more HOF worthy.
VegasMoved
It doesn’t mean that at all. If you believe there are more than 10 worthy candidates on the ballot then it makes sense to distribute your vote in a way that improves the chances of all those players making it. One vote isn’t hurting Ichiro.
slund24
well there was only 1 guy with that logic with a HOF vote.
VegasMoved
Very few voters submitted ballots with 10 players. The point is only relevant to those voters.
slund24
well you can submit 10 votes. So even if you only submit 3 votes, you’re saying that those are the only 3 players that are worthy of HOF. So if you leave Ichiro off, he’s not HOF worthy in your mind
stpofsd
this! everyone criticizing the one voter trying to get the most guys votes. used to be a handful of voters who never voted for 1st year guys trying to make sure nobody worthy gets left behind
VegasMoved
Again, it doesn’t mean that. If you think there’s more than 10 HOF-worthy players, then you’re going to have to leave somebody off. May as well leave off the person who needs the vote the least.
hiflew
I respect that decision. He KNEW Ichiro was going to be a HOFer regardless of his vote, so he chose to cast a vote for someone that needed it more. You only have to get 75% of the vote. They don’t bring out dinner to the Hall of Famers in order based on vote total or anything. There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between 99.7 and 100 and 76 for that matter in this regard.
hiflew
“Stupid” logic is still logic. People have a right to their opinion, even if you disagree with them.
SalaryCapMyth
@slund. Do you know how many players got 100% of the vote on the first ballot? Just one; Mariano Rivera. Vegas is correct.
FenwayFanatic
How do we know he voted for 10? Is it said somewhere?
VegasMoved
I don’t know, I’m basing that off of slund’s comment that “he” voted for 10. The ballot probably isn’t public yet. But strategically leaving Ichiro off the ballot seems more plausible than leaving him off based on merit.
FenwayFanatic
They said it with no clear evidence and everyone took it for truth. I would just like the link or report that they are citing, no shade towards them.
LordD99
I did see one writer who was thinking of not voting for Ichiro because he knew he was assured to get in, and he wanted to have a full 10-person ballot with giving Ichiro’s vote to someone else. He decided NOT to do that because he was afraid he would be “that guy” who would draw the anger of two countries. Perhaps the guy who didn’t vote for Ichiro did it for that reason. If so, come out and say so. Don’t hide like the non-Jeter voter did.
FenwayFanatic
To be honest, if he comes out, gives his rational and reasoning, and apologizes to Ichiro, my bitterness might subside
Astros_fan_in_Aus
“rationale”
slund24
@Fenway If he didnt vote for 10 than that means he didnt vote for Ichiro because he was voting for someone else that needed the vote but was then not voting for Ichiro because he doesnt think he deserves HOF. That would be worse if he didnt vote for 10 and left him off.
slund24
@SalaryCapMyth Yes, I know only 1 has been unanimous. I think that is dumb. 1 voter did not vote for Griffey either which is stupid and many others. Old timers used to make sure no one got in unanimous because their favorite players from the old days didnt go in unanimous so no one should in their minds. When Trout is on the ballot, every one should vote for him, same with Ohtani, Soto, Verlander, and others. But none of them will go in unanimously either because 1 person wont put them on their ballot.
FenwayFanatic
yeah yeah yeah……
hiflew
Apologizes? For what? He was not required to vote for Ichiro.
FenwayFanatic
I know, he shouldn’t have to, but this is what would calm me down. He has no mandate to apologize, I would hope he would if he did it solely to keep others on the ballot, but its fine either way.
JackStrawb
A small Hall proponent could reasonably argue that with his closing 6 to 8 seasons, Ichiro was the first man to play himself OUT of the Hall of Fame.
Not saying I’d make that argument—but it’s a reasonable one that deserves a stronger counter than ‘but he’s FAME-ous.’
—Bizarre that the voters couldn’t do better than vote him 7th for the MVP in 2oo4. 9.2 bWAR, highest in the AL, and 1.6 bWAR higher than the second highest total for a position player that year. That was his 262 hits year, when he won a GG, batted .372, and played 161 games
MetsFan74
There are people who will give up their vote because they assume that someone like Ichiro will definitely get in. I think that’s not fair to 100% obvious players like Ichiro!
vincent k. mcmahon
Congrats to all 5!
Astros_fan_in_Aus
% ?? Who are the five ?
outinleftfield
Dave Parker and Dick Allen are the other two.
MeowMeow
What weirdo didn’t vote for Ichiro?
C Us Sink
Probably one of the writers that figured Ichiro, was ROY, made it to the post season very seldom, and was a selfish slap hitter, that didn’t help his team win overall…
truthlemonade
Why would anyone hold ROY against a player?
C Us Sink
Because it didn’t help the team win…
YankeesAreDodgersEast
@c us stink
Probably the biggest clown take I’ve read in a while. “Selfish slap hitter”…you’re right, he should have been striking out, for the team. Also, Mike Trout sucks, he only went to the playoffs once.
Bozo
C Us Sink
Mike Trout is an incredible talent. He’s always injured. So when he isn’t playing, it sucks…if you watched Ichiro, really watched him, you’d see he’s over rated…I like and respect your disagreement tho.
slund24
Ohtani been to playoffs once. Also, Trout was rarely injured until the last few years. He finished top 2 in MVP voting his first 5 years in MLB and top 5 his first 9. That led to 1 playoff appearance. In MLB, you can have the best player in the history of the game and it doesnt mean you will even compete for division titles
C Us Sink
You just made my point. Everyone seems to think Ichiro walked on water. Great. That’s their opinion. We had supposedly “the best player” and didn’t win a WS. I’d rather have several above average players in Ichiro’s place that helped to win the WS.
slund24
Griffey overrated? Never won anything. Edgar overrated? Selfish doubles hitter that never helped the team win.
C Us Sink
Edgar had one of the biggest hits in franchise history to help propel his team…yes, a double. Not a slap hit.
BabyBoyBlueDiamond
Don’t blame Ichiro for the rest of the team not pulling their weight. That’s just ridiculous. “I don’t want one great player and no playoffs… I want a handful of better than average guys who get to the playoffs?” What?! How about surround an all time great with talent?
C Us Sink
That’s not what was said. I would prefer above average players that would win the WS. If people think he’s that great, that’s their opinion. I have mine, and wasn’t that impressed with the guy.
MartialArtisan
How can you say he didn’t help his team win? His rookie year they won 116 games, the most ever. They don’t do that without Ichiro.
C Us Sink
Respectfully, I don’t care if the team wins 516 games. They didn’t win the WS that year. And everyone knows they should have.
MartialArtisan
Yes they should have. It sucked when they lost to the Yankees. I think they lost a lot of momentum when the season was postponed due to 9/11. That’s not an excuse, just an unexpected reality they had to face. Winning the WS should always be the goal (tell that to the Mariners owners) but tying the all time regular season win record is still quite an accomplishment and Ichiro scored the most runs on the team that year and had the highest WAR.
MartialArtisan
In fact, I wish he’d come out of retirement and play for the Mariners this season. He’d probably hit better than half their lineup!
It reminds me of the movie “Cobb” where Ty Cobb is asked what he thought he’d hit if he played now and he says .290 then he’s asked “why only .290, you were a career .356 hitter? And he replies “Cause I’m 72 F**kin years old!
YankeesBleacherCreature
@C Us Sink
By your standards, Ernie Banks should not be in the HOF, right?
AndyWarpath
Racism is alive and well.
bravesiowafan
Definitely some crusty old timer
C Us Sink
Crusty, no. Old timer old enough to remember he didn’t help our team win anything, and felt he was over rated? Yes.
VinScullysSon
So, you’re the voter aren’t you?
slund24
10 time GG, 10 time AS, MVP, ROY, 2 time batting champion, and most hits in a season in the history of baseball. Not overrated at all. Also, was best player on team that won 116 games.
JackStrawb
He wasn’t, quite. That was Bret Boone’s career year, when Boone played GG-caliber defense at an up the middle position while putting up a 153 OPS+.
That’s against Ichiro’s 126 OPS+. Ichiro did win the GG but by the defensive numbers of the day he contributed 1.0 dWAR vs. 1.7 dWAR for Boone.
It’s close, but fairly clear in favor of Bret.
C Us Sink
Thank you, very much!! Boonie…
slund24
well, Ichiro won the batting title and was MVP of the league that year.
junior25
Probably same guy that didnt vote for Griffey Jr
FenwayFanatic
or Jeter
CO Guardening
Probably the guy who realized that while Ichiro had a slightly better 10yr peak over Andruw Jones, Jones had the better career after said 10yr peak.
Just my assumption.
slund24
what about his other 9 votes?
FenwayFanatic
Where is this from?
JackStrawb
Fair point, though it’s close. 4.7 bWAR for Andruw in 6 seasons, 5.1 bWAR over 9 years for Itchy.
Andruw also had the better peak in his best 7 seasons: 46.7 to 43.7.
slund24
also, its not MLB HOF. Its baseball HOF. That includes his 8 years in Japan where he was the best player there before coming to MLB. Also, Ichiro had more batting titles, MVPs, more AS, well over 1000 more hits, and same amount of GGs than Jones. Very arguable that Jones had a better career.
Smelly_Cobb
Maybe the voter’s brother / father fought in WW2?
deepseamonster32
Some dummy who probably did vote for a failed starting pitcher when that guy was the only unanimous guy. Which is a disgrace that a failed starter is the only unanimous.
Twoston
Wagner!! Finally
tom brunanskys black sock
Hall of Not 2 Shabby!
thebirds
Pete Rose officially served his “life” ban. Can we put him in now?
differentbears
It’s not a lifetime ban. It’s a permanent ban.
MrPeanutHead
Pedo Pete doesn’t belong anywhere near the hall.
BrianCashmansBurner
Voters are so corny to not unanimously induct Ichiro
PNW Optimist
Corny minimizes the insult.
BrianCashmansBurner
Voter is so corny to not unanimously induct Ichiro
Never Remember
The ahole who didn’t vote for ichiro should be banned from ever voting again. Which old fart was it?
runningwithnailclippers
Here’s the scary part: it could have been a younger voter. Don’t assume age. More than likely an older one, but you never know.
Otto371
If they did, they should be banned from voting ever again.
Texas Outlaw
Andruw deserves in too.
tom brunanskys black sock
Dude threw his wife down a flight of stairs on Christmas Day.
Texas Outlaw
@tom wait. What? I never heard anything about that.
hoof hearted
Whose the self-serving jerk who didn’t vote for ichiro ?
YankeesBleacherCreature
Probably the same one who didn’t vote for Jeter.
Astros_fan_in_Aus
“who’s”
Niekro floater
Good class. Ichiru is slam dunk.
el_chapo_
Hall of fame is the biggest waste of time. its a bunch of overweight, outdated, white dudes who still care about wins and batting average. And then you a metal plate in a room in a building in update New York, that has nothing to do other than look at cleats that dukes from the 1800s wore when baseball gloves had no webbing.
Cam
A bunch of overweight white dudes? I guess CC Sabathia has been using Sammy Sosa’s dermatologist.
politicsNbaseball
I think he was talking about the people who vote
Cam
I know, I just couldn’t resist.
I love me some CC, what a gamer.
deepseamonster32
The voting pool is changing, as writers change. I know one of the Seattle voters is an overweight Japanese guy. Other cities probably have overweight Hispanics and overweight Black BBWAA writers. There’s probably a few overweight women too!!
CarverAndrews
The voting pool is a reflection of the gene pool….hence, the overweight moron that just entered the Oval Office. These are the voters that should concern everyone, not a bunch of baseball writers.
BCleveland3381
Which dopey writer is gatekeeping the 100% vote?
deepseamonster32
One who deserves to be charged with a capital crime.
talking baseball
Jeff Kent should be in.
Most HR’s by a second baseman.
tom brunanskys black sock
And a racist shitheel.
cbraves
Playing the race card huh.
runningwithnailclippers
It’s true though.
vinc3nt3
Should have said playing “the juice card”
AfterBobo
The truck washing card?
JackStrawb
Teh HRZZZ.!1!1!
Sigh. Another deranged Alonso fan, no doubt.
astrosrule
First, revoke the credentials of whoever didn’t vote for Ichiro. And second, hooray for Wagner! He was always fun to watch in the Dome and later MMP.
Peter Pan Damme
Who was the one no.
Misty Moobs
Where’s Pedroia
FenwayFanatic
Pedroia should have gotten above 20 percent. No ORDINARY injury took out his career
HalosHeavenJJ
Ichiro was incredible. One of my all time favorite players.
Wagner and Rivera have WHIPs .002 apart.
CC was a horse and super active in the community.
All are great additions to the Hall.
Acoss1331
Congrats to all three, well-deserved by all accounts. The one voter that didn’t vote for Ichiro must think they’re edgy and cool…
Baseballisthebest
More likely they are old and crotchety.
VegasMoved
One person not voting for Ichiro is such an odd thing to get upset about.
DarrenDreifortsContract
Thank you to that one voter. Ichiro was not worthy of being unanimously voted in.
Bauer? But I Hardly Know Her!
If Maddux can’t, no one should.
AHH-Rox
Not to mention Mays and Aaron.
deepseamonster32
Maddux, as a successful starter, is ineligible for unanimous vote. So are 500 HR guys like Aaron, or 3,000 hit guys like. Need to be a failed starter, who throws one pitch, then unanimity.
Maybe we can get a pinch runner in there at 100% one of these days.
politicsNbaseball
Agreed idk why everyone is freaking out.
baseballseattle24
Haha always funny to see people that are obviously on the wrong side of something hold it up as badge of honor. 99.7% of the voters disagree with you and likely that percentage of fans too, maybe you and the voter are just stupid?
Rsox
All good choices
thunderlips
Who is that one a-hole that didn’t vote for Ichoro? I want names!!
rhswanzey
The one person who didn’t vote for Ichiro should lose his vote.
jdgoat
Lmao at the person who doesn’t think Ichiro is a hall or famer. How can somebody so clueless get a vote.
Yankee Clipper
Number 52 jersey retirement ceremony incoming……
CravenMoorehead
Congrats to Big CC, well deserved!
Baseballisthebest
No it’s not.
James Midway
The one voter that didn’t vote for Ichiro should have their vote removed for never having watched baseball.
deepseamonster32
At minimum. I’m in favor of a public hanging.
YankeesAreDodgersEast
I’m happy everyone here is upset at the non unanimous selection by the nimrod voter. He was my favorite player.
JackStrawb
Most of us aren’t remotely upset.
Keep in mind no one gets upset with you when you make foolish comments. Why would they?
YankeesAreDodgersEast
Well not only were you wrong once in your air head response, you were wrong twice. You almost had no room to be wrong that many times but you succeeded.
VegasMoved
Beltran probably gets in next year. Seems the voters feel like they punished him enough.
JackStrawb
@VegasMoved I don’t know how much weight to give the cheating, but putting that aside for the moment, Beltran on on-field merit alone has a career that should put him in the Hall of Fame just for what he did as of the end of his age 34 season.
At 35 and after he had 3-4 seasons as a competent regular. An easy HOFer who then gets the cheating deduction mixed into his record and into the voting.
scruffmcgruff
Not going to lie, I would love to hear that one voters reason not to vote for Ichiro just so I could get a good laugh out of it. Regardless, very well deserved all around.
tom brunanskys black sock
It’s long been an unspoken creed of the BWAA to never allow anyone to be unanimous. So this dude, like it or not, was just adhering to their custom, as archaic as it may seem.
Not sure why everyone so up in arms about it. It’s not like his plaque will have an asterisk or anything. The HOF is already such a broken, toxic system as it is.
VegasMoved
Im guessing it’s just someone who wanted to help a fringe player stay on the ballot.
dlevenson
Beltran should be in.
FOmeOLS
A Trash can, yes he should be in one….
Low IQ Angels Management
Hall of really good is what it’s become.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Long overdue for Wagner. Glad he didn’t wait as long or longer than Lee Smith
What scrub writer didn’t vote for Ichiro?
denistaylor
No Alex, no Manny, no Pettitte. No sense…just pettiness. No way Ortiz wasn’t on something to go from a backup to a star. But somehow that’s OK. They’ll all eventually get in when sanity returns.
Baseballisthebest
They don’t belong. There are 3 voting instructions that exclude them.
Vinz
None of the voting specifications exclude Pettitte.
He should be in.
outinleftfield
I really liked Pettitte. He seemed to be a genuinely good guy and his stats were very good. He admitted to using PED. If a voter is not allowing others in for PED, they cannot allow a guy that admitted using them in.
Lou Sassoll
1. Who TF didn’t vote for Ichiro!?
2. Why is Andruw still not in??
Old York
Terrible. None of them should be in the hall. More watering down of the hall.
hoof hearted
393-1 for ichiro. Whose the 1 idiot?
Veejh
Yankees beat writer who doesn’t want another unanimous vote besides Mariano Rivera.
Astros_fan_in_Aus
“who’s”
Baseballisthebest
Not going to be a popular position and will say it anyway. Sabathia would not be going into the HOF if he had not pitched all those years for the Yankees. His career ERA, his career WAR, and his peak 7 year WAR just don’t cut the mustard. He wasn’t close either. He missed by more than 15% on all 3. His ERA ranks 125th of starters with 2000 IP. 2nd to last of starting pitchers in the HOF. Only Jack Morris has a lower ERA. He was very good, not great.
Yankee Clipper
Popular or not, if you’re discussing WAR he has to be considered an appropriate candidate. He’s immediately above two HOF pitchers in Juan Marichal and Don Drysdale…. John Smoltz and Roy Halladay….
In fact, he slots in at exactly the 50th percentile of HOF pitchers from what I can tell. That makes him the prime example of what is considered HOF.
However, if your argument is that none of those guys deserve to be in, that’s a different discussion and I won’t fault you for your opinion because the threshold is subjective.
outinleftfield
YC,
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (55th): 62.3 career WAR | 39.4 7yr-peak WAR | 50.8 JAWS | 50.8 S-JAWS | 3.8 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 66): 73.0 career WAR | 49.9 7yr-peak WAR | 61.5 JAWS | 56.9 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162
Don Drysdale – 67.1 WAR
Juan Marichal – 62.9 WAR
John Smoltz – 69.0 WAR
Roy Halladay – 64.2 WAR
CC Sabathia – 62.3 WAR
Halladay and Marichal did that in 3 fewer seasons.
Sabathia ranks 55th among of 66 SP in the HOF and only Jack Morris was worse in WAR or ERA since 1947.
JayPhilsFan
3 more HOF’ers added to my seen live list. Congrats guys.
baseballseattle24
Ichiro, the true hit king now has another thing that Pete Rose will never have.
FOmeOLS
Pete Rose doesn’t care, at the moment.
ChangedName
Wonder if Beltran got punished for his involvement with the Astros scandal because as a player, he’s a shoo-in.
VegasMoved
Probably. I think he’ll be in next year.
Poppin' Balls
Personally, I don’t view CC as a hall of famer, and think he benefited greatly from playing in the Big Apple and the current state of starting pitcher’s durability.
Chicken In Philly?
I mean, it’s not a bad thing to reward modern day starting pitchers who do stay durable. They’re throwing fewer pitches, but much, much faster than their counterparts from previous generations.
JackStrawb
I’d like to hear the argument seriously debated by a small HOF voter who values fame less than he does performance that, had Ichiro retired at 40, he was a clear HOFer albeit just in given his 2,844 hits, career, would have meant not getting the 3,000 hit bonus.
“The negative value Ichiro accumulated from 41 to 45 is just enough to push him out of the Hall.”
It’s an interesting debate, where the focus is on whether a player can play himself out of the Hall with enough negative performance or enough weak years.
CC Sabathia is a similar case, where his last 7 seasons drag down his career ERA+. He already had a small peak by HOF standards, 39.4 bWAR in his best 7 seasons vs 49.9 bWAR for the average HOF pitcher.
Outside of that modest peak, in his first 5 years he was a hair above average for 4 of those years with only 1 really good year in the 5. His last 7 seasons, 3 were bad, 1 was poor, and the remaining 3 summed to give him a combined 4.31 FIP.
A 116 ERA+ over 3,577 IP, a poor 4.28 ERA in 130 postseason innings… it’s easy to see the argument for Sabathia as close but definitely out.
SkenesandSlopes
Sabathia induction should open the door to committee inductions for former pitchers. Dave Stieb, David Cone and Kevin Brown come to mind. Tiant should already be in. CC should not be in IMO.
Clofreesz
2026 is probably going to be the exact same. Ryan Braun is the only suitable newcomer, but I doubt he gets in.
With that said, Andruw Jones and Carlos Beltran should have a great chance next year.
Gumby82
Who’s the self serving, hoping to become famous, irrelevant , sorry excuse for a writer that didn’t vote for Ichiro?
rule78.1
394 ballots submitted and one person decides to not vote for a first ballot hall of famer. Need to take away that person’s voting rights and give it to someone who recognizes a hall of famer when they see one.
Reynaldo's
Would love to hear Ichiro speak English for once
The Usual Suspect
Yeah, that’s a prerequisite to being a great player and getting into the Hall. Cripes.
Reynaldo's
Nobody said it was.
outinleftfield
Watch this video of his Mariners HOF induction speech. youtube.com/watch?v=fgossI-oZII&ab_channel=Se…
Salzilla
Congratulations to all! Ichiro was always incredible to watch. CC was such a good Yankee. Wasn’t a Wagner guy, but obviously deserved..
Chester Copperpot
All very deserving in my opinion. Congrats!!
DroppedThirdStrike
The sad thing as a writer is that by failing to vote for a guy because you think he shouldn’t be enshrined in his first year is that you lose the chance to EVER vote for him. That guy will never be able to write his name on a HOF ballot.
Brick House Coffee Tables Inc
Just a reminder that Ichiro’s HOF speech will likely be legendary. If you doubt that, go watch his 2022 acceptance speech for the Mariners HOF on YouTube. This is the man who made the largest player donation ever to the Negro Leagues Museum in Kansas City. He is an absolute student of the entire game, and he’s going to want his speech to be perfect.
FOmeOLS
No cheaters. Beltran getting in is a huge shame.
The Usual Suspect
Yeah, Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, they never cheated. Everyone who is in is angelic. Like Cap Anson. Beltran is clearly the worst of the worst.
آلي مكبيل_.._.بيتزا بيبيروني آشتون كوتشر
That’s great that they are in.
sufferforsnakes
Shameful that Omar still isn’t in the Hall of Fame. Might as well call it the Hall of Mediocre.
johncoltrane
is this chase utley’s 2nd yr on the ballot? he’s alredy up to 40%
he’s nowhere close to being a HOFer
and i personally hate his guts as a met fan but thats neither here nor there
outinleftfield
Utley is qualified. 12th highest WAR for a 2B in history. 8 of the 20 HOF 2B have a lower WAR. His 7 year peak is higher than 12 of those 20 HOF 2B. . If you just want to talk offense, his 117 career OPS+ and 131 seven year peak OPS+ both rank 8th since 1947
johncoltrane
Jeff kent was twice the 2nd bsman utley was & he didnt get elected
Ranger Danger19
There’s players out that deserve to be in and players in that shouldn’t be. Popularity contests are all about timing.
The Usual Suspect
As Harold Baines knows.
Shrutefarm
and Curt Schilling. His baseball merit is much more worthy than CC’s. Unfortunately, it’s not just about what you do on the field.
bschaef
The guy who didn’t vote for Ichiro should be eliminated from the voter list. He is a moron for wanting to be different and also wrong. Also, the dodo who only voted for two players. Who is he to cheat deserving players out of the Hall. He needs to be eliminated also
MRSHOWTIME
Tons of guys didn’t get in unanimously so I guess that’s the mountain this writer is dying on. I get it, but it’s kinda petty / sour grapes
Astros_fan_in_Aus
They may be one and the same person.
Mustard Tiger
What does this have to do with the Dodgers? Focus on the important things MLBTR!
Bobcastelliniscat
Ichiro is deserving…Wagner and CC not so much.
Astros_fan_in_Aus
Have you actually studied Wagnerr’s record and compared it to others ?
Scott Kliesen
Congrats to all those elected today. Definitely a life changing day for each of them.
I never considered going to HOF Induction ceremony, but may do it just to see my childhood hero, Dave Parker, finally get his just due.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Is it okay to be enthusiastic, committed, and fanatical about baseball but not get very excited about the Baseball HOF or it’s annual controversies/machinations?? I mean it’s just kinda meh to me. I hope I can still be in the club.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Totally fine. I do not get excited about the draft nor prospect hype. I don’t care for the ASG nor its voting. I did excited about the WBC though and throuroughly enjoyed it.
dugmet
Watched Billy pitch a bunch of times when he was in college, 1992.
Goose
Ichiro is a no brainer. Wagner should be in. I like Sabathia but he isn’t a HOFer. He only had one 20 win season and his career ERA is 3.74.
He may have the highest ERA for all starting pitchers in the hall. It would replace Jesse Haines 3.64 ERA
replace baseball-reference.com/players/h/haineje01.shtml
outinleftfield
Goose, 2nd highest since. Jack Morris is higher.
J5
He pitched in the era of a 73 HR/season and the 61HR/season record get obliterated by 3 players.. more than once… 3.74 for his era is like 2.74 in todays game where getting 50 HR is front page/site news….
MRSHOWTIME
More like 1/2 a run lower ERA and that is being very generous
Pronklington
Sabathia first ballot is a joke, while Jones still waits
MetsRTrash
How much deferred money?
Cody1981
The writers are biased and corrupt ..left Schilling out but vote in CC first ballot..what a crock
J5
Ichiro could have hit 25 HR/season & would win every HR Derby he entered. I worked for Mariners in 2004 and watched him hit 6-10 consecutive HR off the Hit it Here Cafe EVERY GAME during BP. Not barely clearing, I’m talking missles off the Cafe. He stated once he could hit more HR, but it would lower his AVG and hit total too much… I’d take .320, 25 HR, *100 RBI’s (*if in 3-5 hole) 45 SB for a decade over what he did, M’s needed pop back then too… IMO.. Crazy this dude got to 3000 AFTER leading Japan league like 7 times in hitting. UNREAL
YankeesBleacherCreature
That’s what I heard about his teammates saying about him. And that he has a foul mouth and can speak English fairly well. Tony Gywnn and Wade Boggs were the same with the power.
Dock_Elvis
Cy Young only received 49% on his initial ballot. I hope those writers are enjoying their day.
outinleftfield
I understand Ichiro and Wagner getting in. Two of the best to play their positions ever. I wonder who the idiot was that didn’t vote for Ichiro and I wonder WTH took so long on Wagner.
What I don’t understand how Sabathia could get in at all, let alone on the first ballot. Only a handful of starting pitchers have gotten in with a higher ERA and only one ever in the integrated ERA. His WAR is 10.7 below the average HOF starting pitcher and again only one in the integrated era has had a worse WAR. Even his 7 year peak is not close to HOF standards and only one in the integrated era has ever gotten in with a worse 7 year peak WAR.
Please explain how he belongs.
If you are wondering, the one guy that is worse than Sabathia that is in the HOF is Jack Morris. He doesn’t belong either in my opinion.
mafiabass
All I can offer is this: averages wouldn’t exist without the low end
mafiabass
The person that didn’t vote for Ichiro should lose their right to vote in Hall of Fame elections.
Ivanwhackanov
Who is the ONE that didn’t vote for Ichiro??? Shame… Shame… Shame…
dasit
congratulations cc! great pitcher, great teammate, great human
as a yankee fan i guess i’m happy that mariano is still the only unanimous vote but seriously what is up with that one voter?
ChetLemonaid
Lou Whitaker not being in is a travesty.
Yanks4life22
Ichiro – 4,367 professional hits
The REAL all-time hit leader
StupendousYappi
I was wondering why someone didn’t vote for Ichiro. I looked up his numbers and he actually wasn’t that good. His career OPS is just terrible really. I thought he was much better.