Starting pitching has been a priority for the Red Sox this winter, and the club has actively addressed that need by trading for Garrett Crochet and signing both Walker Buehler and Patrick Sandoval. Several other starters have been on Boston’s radar throughout the offseason, including some talks with the Pirates about right-hander Jared Jones during the Winter Meetings, according to the Boston Globe’s Alex Speier.
The depth of the negotiations aren’t known, or whether Boston’s interest was perhaps anything more than a due-diligence check-in just in case the Crochet trade didn’t come together. In an example of how teams are constantly following multiple paths at once during an offseason, Speier notes that the Red Sox were also showing interest in the Mariners’ Luis Castillo as a trade target along with Jones and Crochet, and also speaking with such free agents as Buehler, Nathan Eovaldi, and Nick Pivetta.
Despite their rotation additions to date, it can probably be assumed that the Red Sox would still be interested in acquiring Jones, simply because every team would love to have a controllable, 23-year-old pitcher coming off an impressive rookie season. Reports from earlier this month indicated that Pittsburgh was (somewhat surprisingly) open to the idea of at least hearing offers for Jones, though that was before the Pirates dealt from their rotation depth by moving Luis Ortiz to the Guardians for Spencer Horwitz.
Heading into the winter, it was widely assumed that the Pirates would swing such a pitching-for-hitting trade, given the team’s need for offense and its number of available pitchers. Even with Ortiz now in Cleveland, the Buccos still have a projected rotation of Jones, Paul Skenes, Mitch Keller, Bailey Falter, and Johan Oviedo, plus several highly-touted prospects in the minors who are knocking on the door for their MLB debuts.
Whether or not the Pirates would be willing to further deal from the pitching ranks remains to be seen, and in Jones’ case, it would assuredly take a massive offer for Pittsburgh to even consider moving the right-hander. As it relates to the Red Sox in particular, the Pirates would be justified in asking for any of Jarren Duran, Triston Casas, or at least one of Boston’s “big three” prospects (Roman Anthony, Marcelo Mayer, Kristian Campbell) in return for Jones.
Casas’ name was already floated in talks with the Mariners about Seattle’s cadre of young starters, while Anthony, Mayer, and Campbell are thought to be all but untouchable in trade discussions. Speier writes that none of that minor league trio was ever offered to the White Sox for Crochet, and “the White Sox understood the Red Sox weren’t going to discuss” those players. However, it should be noted that the Big Three was initially a Big Four, but Kyle Teel ended up being the prospect sent to Chicago as the headliner of the Crochet trade package.
A blockbuster swap of young talent between the Pirates and Red Sox shouldn’t be ruled out entirely, given how a deal would neatly address the twin needs of both clubs. That being said, even if Skenes might be the only entirely untouchable Pirates pitcher in trade talks, it can be assumed that Pittsburgh would explore moving any of its other arms before looking to deal Jones. If the Pirates were considering a trade from closer to the top of their rotation, moving Keller and the $69.5MM remaining on his contract over the next four seasons would seem like the preferred option for the ever budget-conscious Bucs.
Jones or nothing! Offer Wyler, Crawford and something else! Or Casas and something
Casas for Jones
Hell no
Mayer and some other lower prospects for jones
It would be nice for the Sox to keep him but Rafaela is going to stay in the infield
I have a sneaking suspicion that this could turn out to be a Matt Harvey/ Noah syndergard vs. Jacob degrom situation. You had to big personality, quasi celebrities who’s star shone bright but fades away relatively quickly. But in the end degrom proved to be the best of them all. Skenes looks fantastic now and reminds me a lot of Harvey. His pitching arsenal is quite similar, he’s heavily reliant on his fastball and his secondary pitches are slightly above avg. although I do give the slight edge to skenes on his secondary pitches. However both are/where mainly 2 pitch pitchers. And both have a quirky awkward personality but seem to enjoy the celebrity status the game brings. And jones reminds me of degrom he’s quite, reserved and his pitch mix is comparable to degroms at this stage of his career. Degrom added a wicked change up which I think jones has the potential to add. Also the hair…
Rafaela could be a Gold Glove caliber Center Fielder so it’s not a given that he stays in the Infield
Cherington will want a major league ready player if he decides to trade from the pitching depth
Trade sounds like it’s long gone not happening for Boston.
Skenes has a lot of elite pitches and can attack multiple ways. His fastball can still be significantly improved. Usage can be changed. Extension to be increased. He’s so elite you don’t want to mess with him but if need be there’s a lot you can do to adjust if need be.
It’s scary how good he already is. I mean he isn’t even throwing the football slider yet! It’s over when he adds that!
his slurve is hardly above average
Did you seriously compare skenes to Harvey
Fan-El Chapo should have been comparing him to DeGrom.
You Are forgetting how good peak Harvey was, look at his peak numbers. guy had a wipeout slider and an explosive fastball with run. I don’t think that’s it’s a bad comparison at all
I say have Rafeala, Duran, and Anthony in the outfield
Trade Abreu and Casas for Jones and a prospect
Move Mayer into short….put Story on 3rd and move Devers to first…Grissom plays second…That would make a decent team if healthy….
Grissom for now but probably Campbell at some point
@ el chapo
You lost me at “his secondary pitches are slightly above average.”
Have you seen Skenes Splinker? It’s simply the best secondary pitches in all of organized baseball. A million times better than anything Harvey ever threw.
@ el chapo
You’re the only one who thinks that.
What pitching depth?
The Pirates have had 3 good pitchers in the past 10 years and Cherington has discussed trading 2 of them this offseason.
Pirates need to just sign a closer and see what happens, but this idea of possibly trading proven starters needs to go out with the bathwater
with Bednar projecting to me $6.25 million from arbitration it’s highly unlikely they will sign another closer
Another would infer that they have a closer
Anyhow, I think if they add Andrew Kittredge then that would be the move that gives them the best chance this season. Just cross your fingers and lean on the pitching
El chapo- You are correct in comparing for a three year period.
I am not too familiar with Harvey but it seems that I recall that the New York nightlife may have contributed to his downfall,
and a rapid one it was.
Skenes may have a pretty and successful girlfriend but he seems to be a down to earth low key guy.
He had a first year comparable to the best of all time.
I have been following the Pirates since 1961 and as such I am a biased observer but I do not recall any ML rookie pitcher having such an impact.
Barring injuries Skenes has a good chance of being one of the best of all time.
He was that great as a rookie.
But it is just one year,Harvey had three.
We will see how it turns out.
Goku- They did that last year and how did that turn out?
Their 25 man roster is close to being set but they need at least one if not two left handed relievers and another hitter.
With options on several young relievers they could also use a veteran right hander to close if necessary.
The optimal tact would be to trade some of their young players who are excess but they would not get much for them.
if Nutting is simply frugal but not cheap he will spend another $20M to sign free agents if the positions cannot be received in trade.
The Skenes clock is ticking.
Mendoza: The two players I would pay to see are Skenes and Elly de la Cruz. The only thing I would fix with Skenes are too many long counts that run up his pitch total too early.
I read something from either Passan or Sports Illustrated stating that the clock was ticking on signing Skenes to a long term contract and that it had to be done by the end of spring training
Guess I’m at a loss as to why Skenes would sign such a deal, other than immediate money alone. Pittsburgh will hardly be the center of the MLB universe and let’s face it, if this offseason is any indication they have shown no urgency in trying to build a contender which would showcase his services
And Skenes was Air Force. That brings a certain amount of character and discipline.
Skenes has said that he wants to join the Air Force when he retires from baseball.
Maybe he’s only planning to play for 10 years
I’m just saying that they aren’t likely to spend more money for a closer due to Bednar being on the roster
Chapman wasn’t a good closer
The logic was good. Just not the right player.
Nutting will spend like 6 mil more (max)
Can either get a mediocre RF or a good RP
I’ll take the RP and let Henry Davis, Palacios and Suwinski battle it out in RF.
Bednar is a huge question mark as even a good RP next season, let alone closer.
Cant hang this bullpen out to dry when this teams’ main upside is in stopping runs.
I think Kittredge is a guy who’s stock could explode on a 1-year deal as the Pirates closer
Lot of capable options out there tho including Kyle Finnegan and David Robertson
That’s just a case of trying to buy out a year or 2 of free agency for some extra guaranteed money up front.
Standard practice, but would have to offer 35 mil for those 2 seasons to get Skenes to even bat an eye
Rafaela is horrible in the infield.
Goku- Chapman did a good job last year and they would have won about 70 games without him.
Same thing is true this year without another closer.
At the very least you need one because one arm injury would ruin your season.
I think that Bednar will be better but maybe not as a closer.
Too many eggs in one basket.
Robertson is 40.I would go with Turnbull,Kittredge,Finnegan,or,for the right price,Jansen.
Canha could take Joe’s place.
they would have won more games if they had not been near the bottom of the league in runs scored
I really want to keep Casas, Duran, Campbell and Anthony. None of them should be traded just because the Red Sox are too cheap to pay for high quality pitchers.
Duran, Campbell and Anthony are the three I want to keep. Casas and his Agents unwillingness to work on an extension makes him expendable, in my opinion, if the Red Sox can get equal value in return or trade Casas for lesser return if the Sox can salary dump Yoshida.
Pittsburgh is not trading Jones for anything but a haul back such as Mayer AND Casas. I just don’t see a trade. For the Red Sox to call Pittsburgh, it’s like them calling the Sox and asking about Campbell. The one who could be moved that no one is talking about is Ceddane.
Dewey – Nobody is taking Rafaela without the Red Sox eating a huge amount of that albatross contract.
I hope that is sarcasm I’m reading here buddy…
Fever, it’s way too early to call the contract bad. His glove is as good as it gets and he only needs to learn discipline along with hitting a fastball. He is not on my view underwater. That said, it’s the risk of signing players early.
Not sure what you mean Rsox. A) No one is trading a 23 year old with a MLB fast all unless a true haul is coming back. Both Casas and Mayer have high ceilings but both have also not been healthy. Sox would not make the trade but I don’t see Pittsburgh doing it for just one of them.
Dewey – Rafaela has batted in the heart of the order and NEVER got pitched around before 2024 because his previous managers knew what they were doing.
He needs to train in the off season on how to deal with being treated like crap by Cora and being stuck in the part of the order where there are seldom base runners. The amazing part about what he did in 2024 is that he out produced Abreu who most frequently batted 2nd.
He’ll make adjustments to his hitting but it sucks that he has to be so disrespected by his idiot manager. Also, he’s so much better in the outfield than Abreu (check the stats not the BS metrics) that he should be the Right Fielder going forward so Duran can stay in Center Field until Anthony arrives then he can go to Center and Duran can go to LF.
Campbell should start at 3B or SS and move Story to 3B. Without either of those moves, Boston is out of the hunt for a playoff spot.
Rsox – Too many similarities to Myles Straw, hopefully Rafaela can mature and improve though. I’m rooting for him, but like Sag said it doesn’t help having an awful manager and hitting coach.
Dewey – I get the homerism but facts are facts. As Bill would say, you are what your numbers (and GG voting) says you are.
How bad has he been at the plate?
Tied for THE WORST chase rate in MLB since records began being kept in 2002.
And the LOWEST walk percentage in MLB since 2018.
There’s much improvement needed to justify his versatility keeping him in the lineup.
Fever Pitch Guy – Chase rate is a worthless stats. 3rd most productive player on the team is what should be relevant because it’s what impacts wins and losses, NOT CHASE RATE. That’s just something for data nerds who don’t understand the game.
I’d trade Casas and Abreu, Pittsburgh would take that seriously. That’s the ceiling for Jones
bum – I wouldn’t pay that price because Jones hasn’t proven himself on the MLB level while Abreu and Casas obviously have.
It’s a big jump from AAA to the majors, we were reminded of that again with guys like Rafaela, Holliday, etc.
@Dewey
My comment (while mostly sarcasm itself) was meant in regards to fever calling Rafaela’s contract and “albatross” and the Sox needing to pay it down to trade it. Even with a little over $49 million left on the deal, it’s still not that bad if an acquiring team can unlock the potential that Rafaela has. A Gold Glove caliber CF or a solid SS with some pop in his bat doesn’t exactly grow on trees, it would be silly not to think that playing multiple positions, especially as a rookie didn’t effect his offense at times
Rsox – You sound like Sag! Haha!
All you need to do is look at the many websites. For instance there’s a great one called “SoxProspects.com” and here is what they said word-for-word before this year:
“Very high chase rate against minor league arms that could be exposed even further at the major league level if he does not continue to improve his swing decisions.”
Hopefully he can work on his plate discipline, otherwise everyone is content with his defensive abilities in the outfield. But if you think some team is willing to commit that kind of money on the “hope” he will improve, think again …… nobody wanted to pick up Straw’s contract either.
The swing and miss is a problem for sure. Saw it a lot in April and again in September but there were flashes of plate discipline in between. It’s probably not a coincidence that his two worst months may have been the team’s worst month’s.
This is where i think there are too many coaches, too many voices in the room. This offense didn’t run hot and cold last season, it ran hot and anemic, Rafaela is a nice microcosm of that…
Rsox – I totally agree! Cora, Fatso and the rest of the coaching staff need to be held accountable. They get paid to help the hitters perform better, so far they haven’t done that.
Yea I’m not trading Casas he still has 4 years of control.
I would trade Abreu if something can be done possibly in a package for Chandler. I doubt that Pittsburg is trading Jones. I’m confident the Roman Empire is starting very soon in 2025 maybe even out of spring training. Abreu is expendable despite having a very good rookie season. I think Breslow will explore what he can get for Abreu.
And how many years do you think Jones has?
That was mostly in response to he won’t sign an extension not in the Jared Jones part. If Pittsburg would trade Jared Jones straight up for Casas it would make sense. Mayer and Casas is crazy talk.
Bruin, I’m not suggesting Boston do that; only what I believe Pittsburgh would insist on back.
If Cherington was willing to give up Jones for Casas he should not be in a FO anymore.
Christian Walker is a better 1B than Eovaldi or Manaea are as a pitcher but the latter two are compensated better. 5 years of Jones for 4 of Casas wouldve been extremely dumb.
Bruin – I agree with all that. The Sox are obsessed with a RHOF so Abreu is the odd man out.
I would only trade Abreu if they sign an a RHOF to a multi-year deal. The past 4 years they’ve cycled through Hunter Renfroe, Tommy Pham, Adam Duvall, and Tyler O’Neill trying to fill that spot and if it’s going to be another one year and out player they should keep Abreu
He clearly wasn’t or he would have.
hey Einstein, Pittsburgh is spelled with an H
Rsox – My preference would be an ADA outfield with Rafaela mostly playing infield and CF only when facing LHP.
FPG I’m not even going there I just think Anthony will be the right fielder so Abreu is expendable.
Bruin – Is it because you don’t feel Roman can play LF or CF?
He’s played 6X more in CF than RF, and about the same in LF as in RF.
I’d rather go with the guy who has already mastered RF in Fenway.
They need a righty thumper. First choice to me is at third to improve defense. The team will be lucky to win with Devers at third. As great a hitter as he is, the infield defense has to improve.
FPG I think he can play any outfield position. I just like Duran in either left or center and Rafaela in center leaving right for Anthony. I do believe Anthony could play any position in the outfield though.
Fever Pitch Guy –
First, no outfield is like Fenway so where a guy plays in the minors before coming to Fenway is irrelevant. Each individual outfield spot is unique enough that it must be learned.
Duran struggled at first in Center field as did Bradley. Heck Evans struggled in right field at first. Mookie might be the only guy I can’t remember struggling in each of the outfield spots since the 60s.
Second, there are two speedsters with great gloves and that’s Duran and Rafaela. Rafaela has the stronger arm. Anthony played CF but his build and skills suggest a corner outfield spot so he is well suited for right field but since only half the games are in Fenway, he would be perfectly suited for left field too.
Three, You constantly insult Rafaela because you can’t comprehend what it might be like to be well respected and then run into Cora and get no respect because you are from the wrong country. He hit in the heart of the batting order and was the best player on the team all throughout the minors and then he comes up and hits in the mid .400s in August of 2023 and Cora pulls him from the top of the order and he hits like crap against the AL East best pitchers while Abreu is being benched against really tough lefties and 2024 becomes a lesson in humility for Rafaela thanks to Cora.
It takes a whole different mind set to be forced to hit 9th after batting in a top 3 spot your whole career. Rafaela struggled with the demotion but he still proved he is incredibly productive by being 3rd in almost every offensive category while batting out of the 9th hole.
Rafaela will either adjust like Mookie did and Duran did or he’ll be gone by the end of 2025 which would be a shame but typical of Cora the most biased manager in baseball.
Story is a slug so far and doesn’t deserve the respect he gets over the younger players. I believe either Campbell or Rafaela should be given SS position and Story should have to earn it away from them.. With Cora, I’m guessing Story will get the nod despite doing nothing for 3 years. The team isn’t winning in 2025 so start assembling the future team now and get the young players experience. Story’s absurd pay is a sunk cost and at this point try to play him enough to raise his market value to dump him. He’s not part of the future.
Mayer has proven to be injury prone and makes errors almost as often as Devers did in the minors. Apparently based on how he “looks” he’s a great player but his stats simply don’t reflect that. He’s trending towards being the next Jeter Downs and it would be incredibly smart to move him as this current value than his value at the end of 2025.
Teel being traded was a flat out mistake. He was too unique to trade. Montgomery hadn’t proven himself like Teel but he should have gone several places higher in the draft so he was a huge over pay like Teel. Even the guy the front office gives no notice to, Meidroth, has a higher value than he was sold for. If the farm system players had been ranked on skill not hype it would have been Campbell, Anthony, Teel, Montgomery, Meidroth as the top 5. Trading away 3 of the top five instead of Mayer, Bleis and Arias makes absolutely not sense. Is the secret already out about Mayer or is the front office still imagining things with him?
FYI….The highly lauded farm system now has TWO quality players left to graduate in the next several years because Breslow picked the wrong guys.
A quite comparison…… Trading Teel Montgomery and Meidroth for Crochet instead of Mayer, Bleis and Arias would be like trading Bogaerts, Benny and Duran for Sale. Dombrowski gave up pretenders for Sale and Breslow wasn’t savvy enough to know who the pretenders are. He made a horrendous trade that will hurt Boston for years because in two years if Crochet is actually good, he’ll be gone just like Teel, Montgomery and Meidroth.
Sag – Great post, Merry Christmas!
maybe write a novel instead
TheMan 3 – WOW what an intelligent comment. All that thinking and that’s what you came up with. What kind of an ass are you?
That’s why you don’t have Jones. Can’t get a good mlb pitcher with 5 years left hugging all your best talent.
Jimmy – Clever handle ;o)
It’s a good thing there was no extension. He needs to prove he can go a whole season without injury. I’m fine with waiting 2-3 years before extending him.
Fever I don’t think Breslow is trading Mayer either. Mayer’s upside is just too high. I know some people are down on him but he really had a solid year offensively. Feels like this season is just the tip of the iceberg so much talent but he has to stay healthy.
I wouldn’t lose any sleep if the sox traded Jarren Duran tomorrow. Sell high on the guy who’s already late 20s and really has had one great year under his belt.
He’s a speed guy so he’s at his peak right now. Why not get a great starting pitcher in exchange?
There’s already too many outfielders on the roster and one or two are definitely capable of playing a good centerfield. I’m almost hoping they trade Duran this winter. You have to admit that last year was the first he wasn’t a knucklehead in the field as well.
Gary Duran hit pretty well in 2023 as well. The guy can hit he may not be the guy he was in 2024 but Boston has him controlled for four more seasons. He’s very likely to be a top 25-30 player in baseball with his hit, run, field combination. I don’t like the thought of trading my igniter he’s a guy I’m loathe to move.
Bruin – Agreed, he’s the first real leadoff guy since Ellsbury/Damon. I say keep him for at least 3 more years.
BTW he’s not going to FSG Fest, hope it’s not a sign.
Henry isn’t going either ..
Dewey – Ownership stopped going after getting booed and heckled 2 years ago.
As they say, you reap what you sow.
Gary – Monty was traded, if Duran gets traded too then the only competent outfielders left are Abreu and Anthony. And who would bat leadoff? They’ve got nobody.
Move Ceddanne Rafaela to center. Anthony should be ready. Abrue in right, Yoshida plays left, Ref off the bench.
That’s a pretty full outfield plus I think they’re looking for a right handed bat to add. Could be Bregman or it could be another dude to play on the grass so Yoshida can DH.
Wouldn’t miss Duran at all especially if you pick up a great starting pitcher in exchange for him. I think he’s a luxury that you need to cash in on.
Yoshida, with that speed… I still love him as a hitter but he needs to go so Devers can be the DH.
Yes, Dewey. I’d love to move Yoshida but while he’s on the team, I guess he’s in left and DHing. You have to count him as one of the outfielders available on the roster especially when answering fever pitch above. Cash in on Duran now.
FPG Roman Anthony has batted almost exclusively leadoff. He gets on base at a ridiculous clip, he can steal some bases very smart baserunner, and he can get you that leadoff homer. He’s special and the Empire starts this year.
To be clear I’m not advocating trading Duran I think he’s come a long way and I think he will have another outstanding season. I’m just saying Roman Anthony has hit mostly leadoff and would be an option even though he is so young. Boston will have some decisions to make come spring training. Personally if he shows decent in spring training I’d turn right field over to him.
If for some reason Breslow traded Duran for say Mason Miller or some other pitcher maybe a Mariner or Pirates young pitcher. Then I could see Abreu in right where he’s already excellent, Rafaela in center and Anthony in left but that’s the only way I’d play Anthony in left.
Bruin – Thank you, I appreciate your feedback on Roman. It’s good to know he can replace Duran if necessary.
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas FPG, yea I’m a big believer in Anthony. I’m actually a big believer in all of the big three. It’s not hard to see all three making their big league debuts this season and ushering in a new era of Red Sox baseball.
Bruin – No concerns about rushing Campbell too much? I just wouldn’t want another Holliday situation.
I’m not really worried about rushing him. With the way this team is constructed right now I would just let Grissom and Campbell to slug it out in spring training for 2nd but I would lean toward sending Campbell back for a month or two to see how he starts in 2025. My guess is we see him relatively early in 2025 especially if Grissom vaulters again. Kristian Campbell is so versatile defensively if he hits you can find a place to play him everyday. He can play any position he probably profiles best at second but he can play anywhere but pitcher and catcher.
What is this fascination RS fans have for Casas? He’s a 1B only player mate and not a very good 1B at that.
Cleav – .856 OPS as a rookie with a ton of power.
Cleav- If you watched him in 2023 you would understand why the fascination with Casas is. He was very poor in April and into May but he made his adjustments and quite frankly from July 1st until his season ended he was one of the best hitters in all of baseball. It wasn’t just the stats either he absolutely controlled the at bat against the pitcher. He also knows the strike zone extremely well it’s frustrating at times because he looks at strike three a lot but more often than not he’s correct the pitch missed the zone. I’m not saying he’s perfect he has some in zone swing and miss especially up and in like a lot of lefties but his power is real he has hit 42 homers in 717 at bats. His power is real and the upside is massive. The only real issue is injuries he’s been injury prone but the upside is a middle of the order bat with big power and high on base percentage.
Bruin – I’m glad you mentioned the called third strikes because it happened a lot after his return from the IL this year. Considering he always did have great command of the strike zone prior to the rib injury, perhaps it’s safe to attribute all the strikeouts looking as a lack of confidence? He was in such a bad slump that he simply wanted to reach base even if it was just by walking?
Oh joy. Ben will just give him away to them because he has a bias towards the prospects he drafted.
Get another Bryan Reynolds type and replace Jones w Bubba.
Just trade bubba for a equal blue chipper
I don’t he’s going anywhere
Yeah I know saying what
The depth of the negotiations aren’t known.
Hard hitting journalism.
Can we get more details on what’s for dinner? I’m off to church and I’m curious.
I think your expectations for a site with mlb rumors in the name might be a bit high.
Not to mention it’s Christmas Eve.
People act like weirdos during the holidays. Not my favorite time of year.
You included
Bit – Yes people act nice during the holidays, I can see how you think that’s weird though.
Church was very nice. Clams for dinner. I think we will get takeout somewhere. Then back to the hotel. Ah, Christmas with no place to stay.
Hayzee – Merry Christmas! Midnight service is much better, or at least late enough for the lights to be turned off.
Now this is a guy i would love to get if the price is right. Time to unload Yoshida somewhere to at least get one deal off the books
No talk of Paul Skenes?
Yes. For Yoshida, one for one. Breslow said no…
Exactly. Thank you for putting this into its proper perspective.
Dewey – That’s because Roki can’t resist playing for such a great Red Sox ownership!
He’s already met with the Red Sox … right? Right?
Casas for jones is fair
Big 3 or jarren would be absurd
Might be fair but the Pirates would want substantially more. Like Casas + Mayer.
Casas has potential. Has a floor. Nice player. Not close to Jones value. Pirates already got their 1b. For 6 years. Combine with Reynolds he’s a all star. All it cost them was 3 backend starters 2 still a couple years out. Lowe went for a reliever. Naylor for a failed prospect and comp b. 12m got you Goldschmidt Santana. No reason to trade Jones for a 1b.
Horwitz? Seriously? They got their 1st baseman and you’re combining him with Reynolds at 1st?
Pure genius
So when Reynolds plays 1st you have two holes in the outfield corners and a work in progress in center. I don’t know of many beer league softball teams that have your kind of confidence
Only option. They aren’t trading real players for a 1b. And look at the comments. Fans don’t want to trade keller jones bubba ot anyone that has value. Didn’t even want to trade Ortiz. So trading for a 1b is off the table. Only other way is to sign one. Well look what they cost other teams. Imagine would it would take to get them to sign with the biggest loser team in baseball. So free agents not happening. It’s either Horowitz or Rowdy. I ask fans to give me a name every year. 90 percent of them don’t. The other 10 percent give me fantasy names. Here’s your choices Horowitz Rowdy Joe Rizzo. Maybe Bell but he’s a dh so better off with Rowdy Rizzo.
I don’t know how good Horwitz becomes, but you’re dead on with assessment of 1B only players.
Pretzel logic, again.
The problem with this continual rant comes back to your basic idea of “rebuild”
Can a rebuild be over if there are so many holes in the foundation? You say yes
Then you claim that trading large parts of that foundation to bolster those holes is the way to go. Never mind that you’ve taken from a strength and now made it weaker and never mind that you’re going to fill that new hole with never been used mortar
Sheesh, your examples and logic are so inane that it’s ridiculous
The rebuild should have emulated what we’ve seen in Milwaukee, Cleveland, Baltimore and KC. It should mean augmenting those young players with proven guys who can make the entire program a viable commodity. But instead, ownership wishes to squeeze as much money out as possible. Those kinds of signings will never happen. That guys like you wish to give it veiled acceptance and place blame elsewhere is galling. The small market/limited budget rant is a myth. It’s a continual lie to fans
It shouldn’t be trading guys away—guys who’ve proven their mettle—for question marks like Horwitz
You keep poking fun at Pirates fans as know-nothing hicks who are clueless. Enough already.
GM-Casas seems to be the power hitter that the Pirates need.Send them Keller or Jones for him and bring Priester back.
First base should be a power position.Move Horwitz to second and Gonzalez to short and use Triolo and IKF as your utility players.
The Pirates need power.Every good team has some.
The Pirates do not.
@Mendoza Horowitz doesn’t have the range for 2b. Gonzales doesn’t have range for ss. Peguero can play ss and has more upside than Gonzales Triolo IKF but they never developed it.
Appears they are set on and in love with Horowitz. Appears Boston is set at pitcher. At least for a major trade.
You may very well be right young man but one can still hope.
I understand the knock on first baseman who cannot play anywhere else but raw power is not common.One swing of the bat can change the game very quickly.
I think that many of us are frustrated with the lack of risk taking by this management team.
They are going nowhere without substantial changes.
@MrMainStreet Fans are stupid. Pirates fans aren’t immune. It’s not a insult. You guys are smart enough to see and accomplish many things. Fan is short for fanatic. Something happens to your minds. Might be able to do complex math etc but when it comes to your team you are stupid. Just look at every time you see another fans trade proposal and hiw stupid it is. All their bad players for your best players. I’m not that into it so I’m immune. If they never play baseball again I wouldn’t care. I’d find something else to do. Every year it’s naming all the 20m multiple year guys when there is nothing in Nuttings history to suggest this is a possibility. How are you going to be like these good teams you name when you can’t develop players? That’s why they are good.
No small market has have spent more than 130m. Whether they can’t or won’t is irrelevant. Whatever reason they don’t. Pirates have much lower attendance than other teams and much much much less playoff revenue. Logical they never been over 100m or so.
It’s not a Hill or Ortiz situation where the era is fake. Keller Jones era is legit. That’s how they pitched. You are making 4 something era guys untouchable key core pieces of rebuild. I get it. The pirates have been so awful you see these guys as something special they aren’t. The Mets signed Manae Quintana Sevy off the scrap heap and guess what, they were better. Heck the Pirates went to the dumpster and Quintana Anderson Perez Velazquez were just as good as Keller Jones. That’s why they weren’t traded. Why trade away something of value when there is a dozen free agents better than Jones Keller. That’s why you had to trade Ortiz AND 2 prospects to get a platoon 1b. These guys aren’t special. Just guys. You are fanatic and biased. You don’t want to see it. I’m not that into it. I see it clearly.
I already broke down multiple times what a rebuild is and proved it’s over. A rebuild doesn’t have to be successful. This one can be but it isn’t looking good and didn’t come close to what it could have been.
@chemfinancing fine to disagree but I don’t think any gm would agree with you. You can see what 1b are being paid vs what pitchers are being paid.
@Mendoza Line 215 I think Horowitz will work out. Pnc good fir for him. I’d find a platoon him and it’s a all star 1b. Or a platoon for Reynolds so he can play 1b.
The fly in your ointment is that in 2024, we’re able to watch other teams. I don’t have to rely on listening to WCAU to follow the Phillies or KMOX to follow the cards at night
And while you’ll continue to bang the drum of a comparison to the Mets per se, the fact is the Pirates compare very favorably to the Brewers, O’s, Royals and Guardians in terms of market size
Watching them, it becomes clear where the disconnect is regarding “rebuild”. Again, they’ve built a structure and reinforced weak areas from outside their organizations with viable talent. The Pirates have rebuilt with a shaky structure and instead of spending to do the reinforcement, would rather trade away the very instruments of the rebuild itself
Let’s say it again: It. Makes. No. Sense.
Let’s add the wonderful habit of Pirates GMs over the past ten years giving away talent for garbage.
No, Dream. Real fans *arent* stupid.
Pirates don’t compare to those teams at all other than a small city. Those teams have better attendance. More playoff games. Can actually develop prospects. Those teams would have fired Cherington. Wouldn’t have hired him in the first place. Would have hired a baseball guy instead of a hockey guy to be their president. And you compared the Pirates to the Mets. All is said is they signed better pitchers than Keller for less than Kellers 20 some million. That’s not a comparison.
So you’re saying the obvious:
The Pirates’ biggest difference to teams in comparable sized cities is that their owner is a carpetbagging miser
Nothing more. End of story.
Your attendance comment is a myth. In fact, attendance in an average year paid team salaries alone a couple years ago
The MLB golden revenue streams insure incredible profits to owners
Please, stop blowing smoke
Cherington is here because he is “young” and willing to work within financially restricted means set by his owner. That’s all it is
Didn’t say that at all
Yes. That’s the point. You dance around the obvious
ALL of what ills the Pirates emanates from one place. ALL of the problems we discuss—-whether it’s the GM, scouting, player dev, Shelton, coaches et al, ALL of it originates with Nutting
Continually providing long rants about money, market size and the like is just giving Nutting a pass
The worst owner in MLB
None of the small markets spend $. They just have smarter baseball people. Nutting is the problem but no because he doesn’t spend.
No it isn’t, interference to Casas. Big market teams try to take others to the cleaners. Pirates would want Duran which is too much, and Boston wouldn’t want to part with elite young talent so it’s a waste of time. Or at least it should be. Cheap pitching is the best currency to have.
hole – The past year it’s been the other way around, Red Sox have been taken to the cleaners.
Look at how lopsided the Luis Garcia, Vaughn Grissom, Danny Jansen, James Paxton, etc trades have been thus far. All four provided nothing, and only Grissom is still with the team.
I shudder to think how the Yorke, Teel, Montgomery etc trades work out ….. especially if Teel or Monty end up back in the AL East someday.
Jones has way more value than Casas. Jones has an extra year of control for one thing. More importantly in terms of reading their respective markets every starting pitcher free agent is being signed well above general assumptions whereas first baseman are shuffling around the league in underwhelming trade packages and relatively modest free agent contracts.
Anyone questioning Jones value hasn’t been following free agency. Do you have a arm? Can it throw a baseball? Here’s 20 some million for you.
I feel like the Mariners would only trade Luis Castillo if they were essentially trading Luis Castillo for Pete Alonso. That trade would definitely be worth it. Pete Alonso could be another Nelson Cruz in Seattle.
Princess, Seattle will not pay for Alonso (which is all it would take). Boston wanted one of their younger pitchers, which is why Casas wasn’t traded. He has the power that would still play in Seattle.
Castillo doesn’t have much value left after he was extended a contract. This happens to almost every player that signs long term. They get fair compensation and their trade value drops to near zero.
I think this deal would have made more sense before the moves both teams have made recently.
The Red Sox have left handed hitting outfielders and that’s what the Pirates need. But I don’t think the Red Sox need much from the Pirates at this point. Perhaps Bello and Abreu for Jones?
D you think before you post garbage like this…. Bello is signed for a very reasonable contract…. and you think Abreu and Bello is a good offer for Jones…. SMH…. try again.
Abreu and Crawford or Abreu and Fitts make more sense.
Try again lol. Have another drink champ. Like I said earlier people acting like weirdos during the holidays.
BITA – I would have offered PIttsburgh Mayers, Abreu and Yoshida for Jared Jones. And I would have paid $9Million of Yoshida’s $18Million contract in 2024.
Would you have taken that offer?
Yoshida has big time negative value even with the Red Sox paying 9 million.
Do you mean Marcelo Mayer? That might be too much for the Red Sox to give up. Close though.
BITA – Mayer is a bust. WAY over rated. Can’t stay healthy and can’t field.
Coop – Most would prefer Rafaela and Bello instead, that’s fair for both sides. And the Red Sox don’t eat any salary.
Jones, Bednar and Hayes for Tork, Jung and a young pitcher or two not named Jobe.
Jones could pull that package all by himself, and while I’ll acknowledge that Hayes value is questionable, you’re drastically underestimating Bednar based on one bad year.
Sure that might be a little light. Sounds like Pittsburgh would like to ship out Hayes so him and Tork are essentially a 1 for 1 (another Pitts fan didn’t have a good teport on Hayes, but some Tigers fans feel the same about Tork). Jung is a top 100 prospect and the Tigers have TONS of highly rated pitchers like Jaden Hamm so that is getting close for Jones…add in another lower end pitcher or hitter. Bednar is a good pitcher coming off a bad year so don’t overvalue him….Tigers have some solid young relief prospects coming up who would be good replacements. Pretty sure they could work something out. It would address some of the Tigers needs but would it address Pittsburghs needs? You’d know better than I do if you are a Pittsburgh fan. Thanks for the chat dude. Cheers
Let me say it again: if Hayes gets traded to Detroit I will happily help him pack.
Yeah, he’s a solid glove. You can have it
I’ve seen enough of his batting approach and attitude to last a lifetime
Tork has little value. Really zero value unless you can out develop Detroit. If he was making real arbitration $ he would have been non tendered. I wouldn’t trade Bednar for him, way more valuable. Hayes I would if his back is toast I would trade him for anyone just to get out of contract.
Jung swing is perfect for pnc but they already traded for a 1b and have him for a long time. Jung isn’t close to Jones value.
You’re out of your mind.
Yes. But we were talking about baseball.
I would have traded Henry Davis/Rodriguez and a fringe prospect for him but they are gonna try Horowitz at first. Unless they play him at second and Nick G at short.
I do not want to trade Jared Jones. Especially for Tork who I do like but is a huge question mark.
Horowitz looked sharp with Toronto. I like that pickup. I really don’t know why they would look at reading Jones. They shouldn’t except for a massive overpay.
They aren’t looking to trading Jones. Cherington just likes to trade and other gms know he will listen on anyone so he gets a lot calls. If he can get fair value and it makes the team better he will trade him. With Jones value so high it’s unlikely a team trades away that amount.
They are not going to Jared.
Casas and Durran are about to start getting expensive in Arbitration, and Pittsburgh likes cheaper players. If they move Jones (they shouldn’t & won’t) they’d be looking for a longer windows of cost control, I’d think.
Or Casas and Durran and $$$ for Jones…but Boston wouldn’t ship both and cash. And with all the other SP the Sawx added, it seems pretty unlikely that Boston would still make the trade.
Jackson Merrill for Jones is closer to what Pittsburgh would/should want/aim-for.
Casas and Durran have 4 years of control each thats plenty for even the Pirates. But they don’t need Casas anymore and Durran was very unlikely to be traded.
Ah, thought they were each 3 years left. That does change the equation. I think that’s a deal both sides should like.
So people want to give up very good major league players or our top prospects for a pitcher who had a 4.15 era last year and a 4.33 career minor era. While he has the stuff that is to high a price. Deal Yoshida eat some of the contract and include a low level prospect or two
Some people realize era is pretty worthless and also realize that career minor league era is somehow even more worthless.
Top ten MLB pitchers with lowest eras went 151-65.
I know that wins are absolutely useless too but there seems to be a correlation.
It is a 699 win %,or a team winning 113 games during a year.
They come from the best teams but it is amazing to me that a useless stat leads to the most wins in ML history.
Just sayin.
Completely meaningless. Obviously if you have a low era you are most likely to have a lot of wins unless you are deGrom Mets. Prime Verlander Kershaw Cole etc are usually going to have a low era that will usually result in wins. So yeah someone healthy in their prime who always pitches to a low era you can use era to evaluate them and will mostly be right.
Who had the lowest era and most wins in baseball last year? Guy hasn’t had a full season era under 4 since 2018. Everyone said he was toast. Well everyone but the greatest baseball mind in the universe.
You do remember pirates fans wanting to give up on Mitch Keller and his 6 something era after 3 mlb seasons. Well not every pirate fan.
The jury is still out on Keller. His streaks of ineffectiveness where he gets hammered should be considered troubling. Periods where his fastball can’t get off Main Street or he loses the feel of his spin pitches and can’t spot them
Bednar had the same troubles last year
Let’s see if their pitching gurus can right them
Keller just needs a real strength and conditioning coach instead of whoever Cherington found at planet fitness.
Mr and GM- Cherington will take a third year for Keller to have mediocre at best second halfs for him to get the trend.
If the pitching staff gurus were that good Keller would have righted the ship already.
I am not totally convinced that either him or Jones are all stars without further experience or changes made.
I would not be totally surprised to see Keller traded.
They need a real hitter,and they will not be paying for one.
And certainly one of the reasons that Sale was the Cy Young award winner and won 18 games was because he did not give up runs.
ERA may not be the most important pitching statistic that it historically was,but it still is used for HOF ballot and enshrinement consideration by really the greatest minds in baseball.
And another reason that Sale won the CY was because in enabling himself to win 18 games by limiting the earned runs that he gave up he helped to enable his team to make the playoffs.
Real statistics provide real wins and that is the basis of a team sport.
@Mendoza In Keller and Jones there era is a correct evaluation of what they have been. Another team wouldn’t care though as they would think they could get Jones improved and get Keller better conditioned for the entire season. Pre all star break Keller is a low 3 era. Right around there he wears down. You can see it with the eye test and see it in the data.
I bet on Sale to win cy young. Won a lot of $. If I valued era even the slightest bit I obviously wouldn’t have bet.
It’s like when I pounded the table to claim tim hill. I didn’t want his 6 era. I wanted what his era should be. Many times era is correct. Sale Skenes Skubal era was all legit in 2024. Wheeler. But sometimes it’s not. My formula is more accurate. If era was the best I would use it.
Here’s a good one. Burnes. I won’t be betting on his era being the same next year. I expect it to go up. But one season anything can happen. Ortiz era should have been a full run higher in 2024.
I understand that there are indicators that predict what the era “ should have been “ that particular year.They are often used to predict the real era the next year.They contend that they are taking statistical aberrations out and developing a norm.
I do not know enough about them to argue.But it is my sense that they may put untold emphasis on strikeouts.
Some pitchers continually get weak contact,for example,which to me is an important consideration also.
The fact is that era is a fact for starters or long relievers based on their real statistics for a year of substantial innings.The best pitchers will have the best eras almost always.
You predicted Tim Hill accurately.But era is of limited importance for relievers due to the limited number of innings that they pitch.One or two very bad outings can skew the data.Subsequently,I take it with a jaundiced view for relievers.
I have always felt that a more representative stat would be the results subtracting the 10% best and the 10% worst outings to see what the middle results create.
Not sure whether these GM’s think outside the box enough to consider other alternative takes on data use.
Weak contact is a big part of it. Park factors. Any relevant data is used pretty much. Depends on team. Who knows what some of them use. Not a single team claimed Tim Hill who was clearly worth claiming. Not a single team other than pirates wanted to trade for Bart who was clearly worth trading for. Some teams didn’t have a spot maybe but mostly they just failed.
Make GM’s wear body cam like the police so we can hear ALL proposals. And make them do it in real-time, so we can all adequately freak out
and you’re poorly educated like about 70 million other Americans
Jones & Bubba more than likely going nowhere. Keller maybe I believe he has 4 more years remaining at reasonable cost putting Abreu & someone else in the deal
I love Jones but I always fear the durability of smaller-framed power pitchers. A guy like Skenes has a big body behind his fastball. Jared Jones has much less torso-leverage behind that same pitch, resulting in more strain on other parts of his physique.
We already have an early sample of his injury-proness. For this reason I’d be open to the right trade.
In Jones’ defense, he had never pitched as many innings as he did last year when he hurt his elbow
They may have brought him along too quickly
Pittsburg fans cried over losing Contreras Hernandez Ortiz. Don’t think they can handle Jones. I have the same fear about Jones and other teams as well. Hence why he hasn’t been traded and I would lean he won’t be at least this year. Will gladly tell fans I’m sure glad we kept this runt!!!!
Baloney
Pittsburgh fans cried over these guys being given away, if anything. No one cried over Contreras
The Pirates are the most pathetic team in MLB. They have one thing going for them: good, young starting pitching
Leave it to them to give away one and shop two others before they can even get established
Carpetbagger of an owner who laughs all the way to the bank
Garbage franchise
Nothing burgers likely. Cherington is well known in baseball to listen on anyone and everyone so it should come as no surprise he gets calls on anyone and everyone. He has the pitching available in minors to trade Keller Jones and be just fine. For a winning trade he should do so. Doubt he gets a good enough offer. The questions he has about them other teams will have as well. And they are so valuable teams won’t want to pay the price. Him listening is a good thing. No reason to hate that. He did same thing on Reynolds and Bednar. Probably should have traded them, at least Bednar. But didn’t. So I won’t be betting on him trading these guys now.
Yes, the minors are loaded with pitching depth. But trading Jones or Keller after giving Ortiz away amounts taking another two steps backwards to take one step forward
Dream, where does it end?
It’s ridiculous now and stubacca (below) asks the million dollar question and baseball fan would ponder, and one every Pirates fan knows the answer to;
Because the Pirates have a habit of giving away players for nothing.
I hope you’re right about “listening”
Merry Christmas, my friend
Ortiz is nothing. See ya. Addition by subtraction. You always ask where are the runs coming from? Right? That’s exactly why Ortiz is nothing. Pirates need guys like Skenes Keller Bubba hopefully. Ortiz ok for some teams but not Pittsburg. Ortiz was fine last year but lucky. That luck will run out. Now Cleveland has real coaches so they might make him legit. Doesn’t matter what they do with him.
Theoretically they could sign a starter as good or bit better than Ortiz for under 15m. Even under 10m. Santana Goldschmidt would have cost 15m if they were even willing to come to Pittsburg. Naylor cost a comp pick which is extremely important to Pittsburg and a failed late 1st round pick arm. Better return than we gave Cleveland for Horowitz and he has 5 or 6 years vs 1 of Naylor. Lowe cost a reliever that we don’t have. So basically it’s make that trade or sign Bell or Rizzo. It’s getting ugly at 1b. Trade looks more appealing now that I seen the complete picture. Unless you want Rowdy back.
Bubba Ashcraft Harrington all ready for mlb look. Burrows Solometo as well but I have more ?’s about them. These guys traded to Cleveland highly likely weren’t going to make it in Pittsburgh. Like you have to have elite talent to make it in Pittsburgh. Pitching development is better than hitting but that isn’t anything to brag about. Like Jared Jones wasn’t going to be this good. They changed his fastball grip and that added 7 inches of movement to his fastball. And when I say they it wasn’t Pirates coaching. They is his friend and teammate Harrington. Like Davis going to drive line, Rowdy calling his childhood coach, Gonzales building his own hitting center and working out with a player from another team, you pretty much have to develop yourself in Pittsburgh unless you hit the genetic lottery.
GM-The last half of your paragraph is striking.I would also mention Cruz inasmuch as he used someone as a batting coach going outside of the Pirates a couple of years ago.
Cherington evidently has 257 coaches and assistants but they cannot figure out that Keller needs better conditioning?Maybe Harrington could become the first pitcher/assistant pitching coach ever.Why do all of these players need external help to get better?
You know my position on Shelton.And I disagree on Cherington with you as I think that he is worse than average.We do not know how much the $ constraints adversely affect him as a GM.But all of these player items that you and I mentioned are more common sense things that BC does not seem to get.
You wrote recently that Pittsburgh needs a top 5 GM.I do not disagree,although,like players,they would eventually lose him or her to the big market teams.You have also been saying recently that they should fire BC.I am starting to think that you are correct.
@Mendoza I pretty much grade not every trade but every trade I have time too. Most the big ones. And it’s a hobby so I grade it as best I can in 5 to 10 minutes vs the days upon days and weeks a real gm would look over it. But Cherington does about as well as anyone. He wins trades. Had some weak ones but I wouldn’t say they were that significant. There’s been some pretty awful loses and Cherington hasn’t had one. Some teams have multiple. His drafts are fine. Griffin should have never been available at #9. The best player in the country not just this year but last as well. Would have been a 1st round pick as a pitcher ( already throws 96mph) stole like 88 out of 89 or 68 out of 69 or something crazy bases. The 1 time he got thrown out was stealing home! He could be a gold glove ss. Only problem he is 6 4 215 or something. That’s ok because he can be a gold glove cf. Best position player talent since bonds. Not a 5 tool player. 5 loud tools. Sorry to get you excited but do you like the pirates chances to develop him? He needs some work. Why he didn’t go #1. But I love it. The alternative was just drafting a guy. 750 to 850 ops guy. Pirates don’t need that. They need a trout Griffey bonds. Or at least a Cutch bay Giles. Going under slot to get Bubba was brilliant. All the free agent A+ pitcher signings.
Other than the most important thing development, Cherington is a great gm. Trades drafts free agents just fine. If he could have top 10 development I would give him my full endorsement.
And I been saying for years his development is awful. So I was always critical if him. I also said who do you know that’s a unemployed hitting pitching guru? Has to take some amo6of time to build an entire organization that was bottom 5 in development. Maybe bottom 2 or 3. But after 5 years you have to go in a different direction.
Sign someone young and cheap but for a lot of years. If they don’t work out oh well. And usually if they end up being good the person under them is good so you just promote them if they get poached.
I think that one of my biggest concerns is that he sticks by Shelton.
Was the “take a pitch” mentality his or Haines,or both?
He has the most analysts and assistant coaches of any team from what I read.How is that helping?
I do not disagree with you necessarily on his attributes,but he does not seem to be a risk taker,as he is very conservative.
And he should have known about the poor position player development long before he purged this year.
The best managers have a pulse of what is going on and try to correct it without having to fire decent personnel.Does he know how to make them better?
Poaching goes both ways.The Pirates could poach someone for a good team if they are stuck behind others.
I like Cherington and he is obviously hampered by the frugality but any improvement in the Pirates overall system has not shown up on the field except in the starting pitching.
I doubt very much that Nutting and the former Penguin’s President have any contacts in baseball to identify any potential replacements for him.
If I was Nutting I would just keep going through gms until one wins. Every year new gm. If one gets into playoffs they get a couple extra years to improve development. Or if they improve development they get more years. Cherington has failed to get a winning record in 2 seasons of trying. GM for 2025 26 27 doesn’t matter. Team is set. It is what it is. Farm system the same. All comes down to trades and free agents.
Cherington should have been fired. Winning would be the worst thing. He needs fired so maybe development can improve. He could somehow improve it. But he had his chance. I’d rather take my chance on what the next person can do.
Dream, winning isn’t the priority. I mean, you can’t see it for what it is?
Being “competitive” is about all Nutting strives for. Lots of theme nights. The beautiful ballpark.
It’s almost as if he had his taste of a championship run 12 years or so ago, really increased his payrolls for them, got nothing in return and said never again
There’s a reason a hockey guy is President. There’s a reason we have this kind of GM
He wants to win I would guess. Because he makes a lot more $ if he wins. Attendance goes up. Research what owners make for playoff games. Owners love playoff games.
Nutting just doesn’t know how to win. Hired a hockey guy who doesn’t know how to win. Brought black the same awful management. Probably doesn’t think he could do better or a new gm would want to rebuild. Doesn’t know the rebuild is over and new gm couldn’t rebuild. Cherington like I won a world series. Let me fire some people. Give me 1 more year. Nutting might be a nice guy. I dunno.
I like Cherington. If he went to a team with good coaches already in place he would be great. He just hasn’t been able to find the needed coaches here. New guy might not be able to either. But let’s find out.
I salute your faith in the integrity of sports. Of winning versus losing. Of owners feeling some responsibility to field the best teams for their hard working fans. Of athletes putting forth maximum effort and focus to excel
But those ideas are old school, Neanderthal ways of thinking. Big money has destroyed athletics, from the professional ranks to colleges and even high school, in some cases. It’s polluted youth athletics as themes like perseverance, goal setting, commitment and team have been replaced by playing for teams that will play in front of college coaches and what playing for a team can do for me, individually.
Add in sports betting houses now partnering with professional and college athletics
I guess what I’m saying is that you or any fan who believes in the sanctity of sports outcomes or the integrity of owners and athletes might as well believe in the Easter bunny or Big Foot
Big money poisons everything it touches. Period. I won’t go so far as to say that everything is fixed but rather, winning means very little to billionaire owners and multi millionaire players. It’s a facade. Another myth perpetuated to keep fans coming back
You and any fan can believe what you like
But your first thought about Nutting caring and wanting to have a winning team so as to get playoff game windfalls?
Chump change
Why spend tens of milllions on better players when the playoffs may only mean I break even, nothing more
I don’t get too wrapped up in any of this, Dream. I couldn’t care less about the individuals wearing “Pittsburgh” across their chests. They’re nothing to me as I am sure fans are nothing to most of them. I just root for my hometown. That’s all
And it’s a miserable era to be a fan of anything in Pittsburgh
Well thanks but I don’t believe any of that
Then you’re exceptionally naive
Don’t get me wrong. It sounds nice. But Nutting just wants $. He cares about the fans….. Money!!!!!
Again, revenue that comes from attendance pays for the organization’s salaries. You can easily research this
But the gravy is what comes from MLB. A windfall of cash
Why in the world would Nutting add tens of millions in salary for a few playoff games in profits? It lacks common sense.
It’s not about winning with Nutting. It may have been in Cutch’s first go-round. It never will be again
This is a cash cow in an era of incredible riches for owners, players and agents.
Nothing more. It’s a shade above watching pro wrestling only in that I don’t believe entire teams “fix” results. But in terms of “athletes” caring about game results? Believe that, believe anything
Lol easily research it. I did. Like I said you need to. But here I did it for you.
Sixty percent of the money from the above-described ticket sales goes into the pot. And that pot is divvied up as follows: 36% to the team that wins the World Series; 24% to the runner-up; the two Championship losers get 12% each; the four Division losers split 13%; and the Wild Card losers split 3%. The other 40%, plus all of the ticket revenues for games beyond the minimum, goes to the owners. So, if players really wanted to “stick it the man,” they would insure no series goes longer than is absolutely necessary.
MLB has not yet provided a full accounting for the most recent season, but we do know that in 2023 the pool was $107.8 million, just a tick higher than the $107.5 million made available in 2022.
Obviously having 2.5 million in attendance and making playoffs is much more $ than 1.5 million and not making playoffs. Come on you been around long enough to figure this out on your own. I’ll give you a holiday pass but come on. Nutting doesn’t just want the mlb$ that every team gets. He wants all the $. So the very few years his awful gms put together a playoff capable team he will gladly spend $ to make $. He doesn’t care about winning but he greatly cares about the more $ winning provides. Do the math 1.5m times what average person spends at a game vs 2.5m times what average person spends at game. That’s a lot of $ sure. But a playoff run is like winning the lottery. No 4-0 sweeps Sheltie. Make sure every series goes to game 7!
Nutting and these owners want to win more than any fan do.
I didn’t research it but allegedly Nuttings most profitable years were when he spent the most $. It makes sense. A 100m payroll with 2.5m attendance is better than a 60m payroll with a million less attendance and no playoff revenue. 2013 probably his best year having more than just a wild card game. And more people watching on tv means more and better paying corporate sponsorships etc.
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Dream, Nutting has done more to destroy the fan base here than anything else. No amount of pierogi races, fireworks nights, hot dog and t-shirt launches and bring your dog to the game events are going to change that
He’s universally hated among true, old time fans. He’s lost all of media—no one believes his shtick.
The Cuban interview, the PG expose and other pieces have done but awakened local fans as to what a greed obsessed type of owner he is
The ballpark is wonderful. It is the selling point itself. And it’s a shame that in this taxpayer funded wonderland, we have an owner who has provided a pathetic product year after year
This off season however has no parallel. The worst. Ever
I don’t know that the Pirates broadcast teams—yes men for this continuing clown show—-will be able to put a pretty face on things this year
I liked your replies here. It reminds me of an old adage that fits Nutting perfectly. “Everyone wants to go to heaven. But nobody wants to die”
Lil long winded. And I just copied pasted it from Forbes article so just put all of the paragraphs. But basically he will spend more $ to make more $.
If you look at his attendance history 1.5m show up no matter what. The floor. 2.3 2.4 will show up with playoff teams. He sees this. So no reason to spend $ unless it makes $. And spending $ won’t create winning at the 130m small market ceiling. So when rebuilding payroll is 50 60 70 million. Early contending 70 80 90 million. Heart of contending 90 100 maybe one day he pushes 110. Won’t be 120 130 unless he makes it to world series and gets that extra $. If attendance would push 3 million and multiple years of nl championship series it could get to 120 130.
No what could he spend I have no idea. But no small market has gone beyond that and Nutting isn’t the one to break the ceiling.
We’re never gonna agree, Dream
The actions of this owner speak louder than words
Pathetic.
All I did was give you data. So you don’t agree with the data not me. I wouldn’t want the guy as my teams owner. Just sharing with you the data he sees and why he operates like he does.
Weren’t you the one who was talking about not trusting news in the run up to the election? Now you’re asking me to trust data when MLB keeps its books closed. I dunno, Dream
I’m no fan of Nutting. Or Rooney. Or the Fenway Group. Any ownership. And millionaire athletes
I don’t think baseball reference would lie about pirates attendance. And just to be sure I have eyes. Looks to been a million more people at pnc in 2014 2015 than 2021 2022. I know what tickets food and drink cost. As far as trusting the news just look at all the things they said were true that where wrong. Russia. Laptop. Cognitive. Fox news who is more accurate got the voting machines wrong. Cost them a billion. Shouldn’t trust any news completely but definitely not the tv channels. Do what you want. It’s just entertainment for most people. But I found independent journalist I trust. But even still they could be wrong. Just much much much better. They don’t seem to have agendas. Don’t need the advertising giants. Most people don’t care about the facts. They watch the news that tells them what they want to hear. Orange man bad. Elon awesome. Joe sharp as ever. Election rigged. I don’t give a it about making me happy. Just give me the information so I can know the truth. Do I need the jab or not? Don’t want to make a political statement. I want what’s best for my health. It’s not you. It’s me. I’m in the 1 percent. Kenny Lofton is in the hall of fame. I don’t need these old know nothing writers to tell me if he is or isn’t. Just give me the information. I want data. Not agenda.
Complete nonsense
Try to remember this statistic. 54% of the populace doesn’t have a high school education
I don’t trust any one news source. Never have. But I would laud one that is adept at manipulation. Says a great deal about you
As for having ‘gotten things wrong,’ I read the 420+ pages of the Mueller Report. Did you? I read the extensive January 6 report, written by republicans. Did you? I’ve read the court filings regarding election interference in Georgia. Have you?
My hobbies
Stick to baseball, friend. You’re out of your element here
The election result didn’t bear out anything you wrote about earlier, instead it only proved what an incredibly stupid nation we’ve become. Your assumptions and conclusions are remarkably inane
Haven’t read any of those things. Didn’t even watch the hearings. Chaney and that other dude aren’t even republicans not that I would care what the new republicans would say. Non of that stuff effects me. Just I tried the tv news before and there is a lot of fake news. I found better sources. But it’s still on in airports and such so I see it hasn’t changed. Not concerned with education level either. There’s so many newcomers the uneducated numbers should be bad. Don’t you usually have to be 16 to drop out? Maybe it’s 18? I dunno but those final years aren’t anything that special. American education system stinks anyways. And with internet you don’t even need schools. Can learn anything you want. Probably best for society to have a basic education and we do. Really basic but there’s a standard even if low. Many rich powerful people like it this way. It would be easy to improve.
Garbage owner, not garbage franchise.
Who is Parker??
Dave Parker
The person I replied above you, holecamel35 has a gripe with Parker’s induction into the HOF.
He’s like a broken record
Tiki does not like Dave Parker’s selection into the HOF.
It’s amusing that Red Sox fans think the Pirates will trade Jones if everyone worth trading him for is off limits.
Gotta give up value to get value.
Paul-New may have a point.I also think that they kept him out as long as possible to limit his innings
In my opinion we do not have enough data to figure out how good this pitcher will be.
If they could have received two or three bona fide good young AAA and ML hitters it would have been a good trade of him for two and him and Suwinski or Davis for three.
Anytime you can trade with Cherington you should do it. He got absolutely fleeced in the Ortiz deal.
He dumped his trash. It was a lot of trash. Painful to throw out. But certainly not fleeced. Odds of his awful development staff developing those pitchers was slim. In any round 2 3 4 he could draft those same exact players in any year. Don’t believe me? Take a look at farm system rankings. If he could develop those types the rankings wouldn’t be where they are.
We must have been watching two different guys from early August to close. Ortiz was their number 2. Easily. Not sure why you’re calling him “trash”. The kid worked hard to get his shot and other than the Dbscks game, excelled.
But time will tell
You’re echoing others here with the Hope Express. Oviedo. Bubba. Harrington Others
To me, you don’t detract from one of your few strengths. If the rebuild is truly over, why are you already taking a pick axe to the foundation that is starting pitching?
He’s a backend starter. Pirates have signed a guy as good as him or better every year 8 million or less. Sometimes a lot less.
Ortiz 3.32 era. But that’s the final result from luck. If you remove luck and use what his era should be well it’s a full run higher. That’s weak #4 strong #5. Trash to Pirates who can just find that for 10m or less. Have it already coming back in Ortiz. And have 3 mlb ready prospects who are better. And if break down his era by months his highest was August and 2nd highest September so his results didn’t get better. I think we might have another Triolo leg kick here.
Now Cleveland is an entire different story. If they get Ortiz to throw as hard and have his stuff back to where it used to be he is a legit 3 era pitcher. Wasn’t happening in Pittsburgh. They even admitted that because you wouldn’t trade that guy for a platoon 1b. So desperate they brought in a tired old dude to be new assistant pitching coach.
You’re missing the point. Again
It’s not that Ortiz…or Keller…or Jones….are going to challenge for the Cy Young anytime soon. They just comprised a pretty good starting staff. Most people in MLB know this
But instead, you’re calling them disposable and trash
To many teams with good farms and player development, maybe. To many middling teams that will trade a starter to bring in a valuable bat, sure, as perhaps it’s all they need to contend
This team has a good starting staff. Trade one and you get a lot of “ hopes” and “ ifs” coming up
This team will dump a Keller and get a couple guys who’ll go down and play at AA. It’s the Pirates way
So the rebuild is perpetual.
GM-There is something to be said for tired old dudes.
I forgot about him.
He is smart enough to tell Cherington to get Keller better conditioned during the winter.
Looks like a good pitching build to me. Maybe he is just soft weak. But I bet some team can figure it out. At the very least less work in Spring so he is able to go in the fall.
Sorry, but it’s not conditioning
Mostly, it’s between the ears
Basic tenets of baseball say you can’t live dead red. When Mitch is going through one of his streaks, he can’t get off Main Street
He can’t get the feel of his spin pitches
And somehow during those streaks, Uncle Sheltie likes to keep him in there for shelling
He pitches to a low 3 era all year and just mentally breaks down in August? Seasons over by then. Should be mentally relaxed letting his stuff do it’s work.
Last year he had two such streaks.
Some guys let bad outings snowball and anxiety increase. I suspect Keller is one of these types
It has nothing to do with physical conditioning.
It would be a huge mistake by the pirates if they trade Jones
Would actually be great. Bubba who should be better will replace him. Ashcraft may be as good. Same with Harrington. Most people like era well it was 4 something. Pirates can find that for cheap see Anderson Quintana Perez Velazquez. Oviedo is coming back. They have pitchers. They need a bat. Outfield is glaring hole. Bats play every day. Pitchers once a week. Jones ain’t a big guy. And 1 arm injury at wrong time takes away 2 years.
I believe it’s old news. Jones Keller Falter Ortiz were all trade options. Cherington liked the option of filling 1b by trading the weakest least need pitcher. Not nearly as motivated to trade them now because he already made his one trade from position of strength.
You’re the guy who has continually carped that the rebuild is over. Exactly how is that so when you’re already talking about getting rid of promising pitchers? Just when does the rebuild start to show dividends?
It’s like double talk
How is the rebuild considered effective when your 3rd baseman is a weak hitting dude who plays like he’d rather be elsewhere? When shortstop is still a mystery. When your center fielder is a work in progress and you have holes in RF and 1B. Now you’re already rebuilding your starting staff. You traded one guy and are floating one or two others
Just where does it all end here? Just when can fans see some permanence in the roster and salute the idea of a competitive team?
Rebuild is over. What is a rebuild? You trade away all soon to be free agents. Checkmark. You lose 100 games so you can get top 5 draft picks. Checkmark. You start filling holes with free agents because rebuild is over and you are now trying to contend. Checkmark. You buy at trade deadline instead of sell. Checkmark. Rebuild is certainly over and it was a failure. They are contending right now! If Cherington gets fired the new gm will contend in 2026 because the rebuild is over and can’t be another rebuild yet. 2027 2028 they can do another rebuild if new gm can’t salvage this mess. Worst scenario Cherington has a winning record and they keep him. Attempt to contend with the same failure gm. Cherington did everything he could to get fired. Nutting just didn’t want to pay 2 gms again or didn’t think he could find anyone better to take the job.
You’re a era guy. Jones Keller both 4 something. That’s not good. They are just guys. Easily replaced guy in Keller. He will make 20 some million. 20 some million you can buy a 3 era guy. It’s irrelevant to trade them. They aren’t core key pieces. Just guys.
You are just a fan of a loser team. With a owner who knows his fans will accept any garbage product and will continue giving him their $.
Brewers last year traded a guy named Burnes. Guess you never heard of him but trust me he was better than anything Keller Jones could ever dream of being. So yes the Brewers rebuilded if rebuilding means winning the division.
Yankees were in similar spot last year as Pirates. They had pitching depth but no outfielder. They traded a guy named King for a outfielder. Again a whole heck of lot better than these pirates 4 something era guys. Their rebuild failed though as they didn’t win the world series.
We can’t trade our 4 something era guys! Our owner president gm manager are so so awful that 4 something era guys are key core pieces!!!!! Lol
I can go on all day. All night lol. Tampa went to world series. Traded a guy named Snell. Hint just like Burnes King he isn’t a trash 4 something era guy. Made playoffs 3 years in row after trading him including a 99 and 100 win season.
You are just brainwashed into accepting a garbage product. Real teams trade real players all the time. Keller Jones are absolutely nothing. Just good guys to have. Nothing elite core key untradable about them. Ortiz is less than nothing. Don’t know how that’s possible but ifnit that’s what Ortiz is.
Try not to condescend. It’s Christmas
I’m not an ERA guy. I’m not even a won-lost guy. I’m more of a performance guy. And you’re missing the point. Throwing the Brewers or Yankees into the conversation is a bit of a reach. Both teams are more complete. Both are more than just one component. And both are shown competency when it comes to trades that provide immediate help in trying to contend
The Pirates are not in any of those descriptions. It’s not that I think Keller is superstar caliber or that Jones will be. It’s just that in dumping either, you’ve both torpedoed your rebuild and set the process back in developing two of the kids you mention to take their places
Fan of a loser team…I’ll grant you that
You already have (gone on all day and all night).
Mr and GM-You two want the same outcome but are coming at it from two different angles.
We all know that no big name free agents are coming here.
Mr does not want a big trade because of the starting pitching foundation already provided as a result of the rebuild.Let’s go forward from that.And he does not necessarily trust the young pitchers coming up.
GM says that we should trade any ML’s not named Skenes and perhaps Reynolds if it betters the team,even with younger unproven players.
Nutting I know and BC I think that we can agree are both conservatives.But for small market teams to improve at certain points they must take chances,and there is little wiggle room historically for the Pirates to do that.
Remember the Archer trade,and its attendant ramifications?
For once,I think that the young minor league pitchers are for real.I do not think that they are suspects.I think that Chandler has a chance to be a stud and is untouchable.Burrowes is probably bullpen.Harrington may be a year away.A healthy Ashcraft will do well.
I do not deprecate BC for his two trade deadline moves because it showed that he was trying,and gave up relatively little.
Horwitz is not the young hitter that they need to turn the corner.He is an improvement,but they need to do something more drastic to get this fan’s attention.
Otherwise it is another mediocre year,and closer to 2030 when the stadium lease runs out.
@Mendoza I am not demanding a Keller or Jones trade. Just open to it. I don’t expect it to happen. But if it does they will be getting something in return. And if they traded Keller they could have replaced him with even a better pitcher. Keller eventually is going to make 20 some million. For 20 some million you could buy a 3 something era starter vs 4 something era Keller. Maybe 3rd years a charm and they figure out how to keep Keller good in August September. But if they can’t so decide to trade him I understand because they literally can’t help anyone fix something. So I trade Keller for a all star outfielder or 1b and use his $ to get a even better pitcher than Keller. No idea why any Pirates fan wouldn’t be a fan of this move. Now Jones is cheap and a different story. But they could get a outfielder that would win more games for them than Jones and if they believe Bubba is for real he would be even better than Jones. Bubba Ashcraft Harrington Burrows Solometo and half a dozen other guys coming behind them. Ok now name the outfielders that are coming. There aren’t any. Use a strength to fix a weakness. Kings much better than Jones. And there isn’t a Juan Soto available but same theory worked well for Yankees.
Yes. Then tell me it’s a perpetual rebuild
Dump Ortiz. Get a nobody
Dump Keller, Jones. Get more nobodies
Call up Bubba, Harrington and the gang to take place as the nobodies come in and play positions
And let’s stand in place for another two seasons.
Mr -I think that the difference between you and I and Dream GM in our original assessment of a rebuild is a matter of age.
You and I go back long enough so that when our team had a rebuild it eventually became a good team.That was the reason that you rebuilt.
Not so much now.
This concept has not been applicable for Pirate fans for almost all of the last 30+ years,as you have pointed out a number of times.
He is correct in his assessment of the term rebuild however.
One can think about it with the Pirates as trying to hit the lottery.
The 15 years before Huntington were irrelevant. They didn’t have the front office to pull of a rebuild. Cherington and his awful development are still better than what they had.
Rebuild is over. Was over in 2022. 2023 2024 weren’t rebuilding. Was the rebuild good? No. Good enough to have a chance of winning? Yes. Good enough to have sustainable winning into the 2030s? Not unless the player development significantly improves.
Look, let’s say the rebuild is complete
It was complete in Baltimore and in their case, was almost all a full, we grew the entire team ourselves renaissance
It was complete in Cleveland. With slight augmentation
It was complete in Milwaukee, with slight augmentation
It was complete in KC with a bit more augmentation
We’re arguing semantics here. Point is, all they needed to do was augment. Bring in bonafide major leagues to compliment the home grown kids that came up. In Pittsburgh, they refuse to do that.
It’s complete. They haven’t made rebuild trades in 3 years. 2025 will be 3rd year of contending!
They did augmentation. Choi Santana Rowdy Horowitz!
Baltimore KC started rebuild 2 to 3 years before Cherington did. Cleveland just reloads. KC drafted mvp contender SS Witt. We drafted struggling in minors 2b TJ. Baltimore drafted all star SS Gunnar. We drafted average 2b Gonzales. Baltimore drafted All star Adley. We drafted can’t catch or hit Davis. Easy to augment for them. We would need Juan Soto Kyle Tucker to augment. They developed players to build around. We if we developed anyone, they are just guys.
Casas and Mayer are probably the starting point IMO. He would not come cheap and Duran makes no sense for the pirates. He’d get expensive fast.
Put down the phone Cherington. Pirates fans have spoken. They would rather start Palacios Olivares Joe than trade a 4 something era for a all star outfielder!!!! LOL!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!
#JackIsBack
The problem with your “logic” is that Cherington has proven he’s adept at giving away talented guys and getting nothing in return
Horwitz will be yet another example
Why do you think the Red Sox made the call?
The problem is that they’ll trade a Keller and get back prospects whose careers will die in their farm system
You’re carping about ERA is funny and I don’t know where you get it from. I’ve been saying that Keller is likely a 3-4 starter for a couple years now. His usual bad streaks color my overall opinion about him
Still, you’re saying you’d likely trade the idea of “where will the runs come from” for “who’s going to pitch?”
Ok
Keep in mind who runs the Pirates…..Cherington is not going to do the RSox any favors after they kicked him to the curb.
Hell no.
My recipe is Abreu, Duran, and Anthony in the OF with Rafaella as a super sub. Campbell plays second with Grissom as a backup. Leave Story, Devers, Yoshida,and Casas where they are. Trade Kutter Crawford To the Twins for Vazquez and Jharen Duran to shore up the Penn and add another Catcher. Then sign one more starter ideally Sasaki (1st choice) but crapshoot if we get him, or a one year deal for Kershaw, Verlander, or Morton (third choice) or try to trade for Sandy Alcantara(second choice) (I would trade Meyer if needed but based on Luzardo price he can be had for less.)
Fans of large market teams can’t help being condescending, they don’t even realize they’re doing it. They believe that no matter what kind of ridiculous video game type offer they, or their team for that matter, make to a small market team that the small market team should roll over, thank their lucky stars and just accept it. Then, when they don’t, that team is garbage or trash and all of its players are crap, too. Its pure arrogance and unfortunate that some fans have to stoop to that level.
pre injury Jones was a top half rotation pitcher. second half is a much smaller sample and had two crappy games that skewed stats.
17/22 quality starts often good, but when bad it was fairly bad.
With the current situation i’m not interested in Casas as much as the previous report, but it is still enough to have a conversation about.
Lets face the fact on one thing we all have in common. We all root for millionaires that don’t care at all about any of us, make way too much money to pitch way fewer innings or play way fewer games in the field than they used to and are way more fragile than ever. Lets not quibble about things. Merry Christmas, all.
Very well stated. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Merry Christmas
Quibble is what we do. I think we are all actually pretty good friends. It’s a tuff call. Do I tell them how awful the development is and that the rebuild is over. Been over since 2022. 2023 2024 were very much contending years. Ruin their Christmas. Or lie and tell them all these failed players are magically going to become good.
Really they can make the playoffs or least have a winning record. They were above 500 at trade deadline. If the pen didn’t collapse and Shelton didn’t keep running Bednar out as closer they could have been 500 last year. If they traded for another pen arm and went winker canha instead of cruz.
They can still win. Just instead of winning 90 some games easy playoffs every year because they have good development it’s win 80 some games and hope to get lucky. Can fantasize development improves. It’s possible. Just Cherington had 5 years. I’d give someone else a shot.
Yup. All friends
And we agree on player development. The worst in MLB
I’ll go one step further in saying the scouting department isn’t much better. (Dream will disagree)
I wish the Pirates would trade Skenes and Jones to “any” other team as opposed to leaving them in AAAA. Why hold them back in their careers?
Keller could be had for Abreu, and bullpen arm maybe.
Sox don’t need another young starter with potential; they have Houck, Crawford, Bello, Whitlock and now Crochet. They need an established top of the rotation pitcher, ideally two.
They already have Arroyo-Lowe and Bucholz-Daisuke.
They need Pedro-Schilling or Beckett-Lester.
Priester was their big Pirates trade.
Jones would be good. Keller better.
Remember it doesn’t matter what they did with Pittsburgh. Just ask Houston NY Tampa.
As a Red Sox fan I’m really warming to the idea of picking up Bregman. It’s pretty clear that there are quite a few people in the Red Sox organization who want Bregman. He ticks some of the boxes. He has had reverse splits recently so that’s not great but he would be an improvement defensively, he does bring leadership skills, and he brings tons of post season experience. I think Fenway would be a great park for him. My guess they would sign him to play second but would have him spell Raffy a couple of times a week. This would be a way to quietly shift Raffy to DH where we all know should be. Since Raffy seems to be selfishly unwilling to move off of third then this could be stealth way to begin the transition to DH.
If you paired a healthy Story with Bregman at second that would be excellent middle infield defense. I know Story has been an incredible disappointment but there’s no arguing his defense at short he’s among the best defensively when healthy. The real question is how much does it cost to land Bregman and is it a smart use of money? The rotation seems set with Crochet, Houck, Buehler, Bello, Crawford, and Giolito with a lot of depth options in AAA to start the season. I do think Boston needs to sign one more reliever from the Scott, Hoffman, Esteves group and if signing Bregman precludes that from happening then I’d rather just let Grissom and Campbell fight it out for second and sign one of those relievers preferably Scott or Hoffman.
I am warming up with the sign Bregman idea especially if it is used as a stealth way eventually move Devers off of third. You can see what Breslow has done this winter he’s improving the pitching at both the major league levels and depth in the minors. Sign that reliever and maybe Bregman and this is an A off-season imo. Keep up the good work Breslow.
I only want Bregman for 3B with Devers moving to DH or 1B (which means Casas or Yoshida needs to be traded). If you lock up a middle infield of SS Story and 2B Bregman, then where will Mayer and Campbell play? Can Mayer play 3B someday when Devers moves to DH? I don’t know. In a move to the OF, Campbell probably only makes sense in CF where Duran and Rafaela are now. I am assuming Roman Anthony takes over in RF (and what happens to Abreu then?). Because of all this, I only like getting Bregman for 3B with Devers moving to DH or 1B which doesn’t seem possible now. So, I don’t think it makes sense to add Bregman as things stand now. Additionally, if they add Bregman and trade Mayer and Campbell, then we will be stuck with an older team after trading the good young players.
All- that’s how I felt as well initially but the only person I think adding Bregman really affects is Grissom and I’m fine with that.
I think Bregman starts at 2nd teaming with Story to make great up the middle defense. It really doesn’t mean much to Campbell my guess is Campbell starts in AAA but if he hits his way onto the team in spring training they will find playing time for him defensively he’s very versatile.
I also don’t think it is a problem for Anthony as well. I think it’s very likely that Anthony plays his way into the starting right fielder. If Abreu isn’t traded this off-season he would be a hell of a trade chip for Boston plus there is no guarantee that Rafaela is going to succeed offensively. Big league pitchers are going to adjust to him, he simply can’t chase that much next year. He punished mistake pitches but he chased so much the book is going to be make that guy take a walk they aren’t going to throw pitches in the strike zone to him next year. It will be up to him to not chase. I could easily see an outfield of Abreu, Duran, and Anthony next year.
If they do add Bregman maybe it makes Devers better until he inevitably hurts himself then Bregman can slide over to third and stealthily take over third and force Devers to DH.
Oh and Mayer they were going to play him at third when he got AAA and get him some experience. He’s solid at shortstop but the thought is he may grow out of short but the general consensus seems to he has plenty of arm for third plenty of range can be a plus defender at third. This aren’t my words this is literally everyone who actually watches this guy play and from what I have seen he can play third.
The only real argument against adding Bregman is cost. If adding Bregman prevents the team from adding a back of the bullpen arm. Then pass on Bregman. I don’t see Teo being a good add unless you can move Masa but I don’t think you can without eating a lot of that contract.
Thanks. I didn’t know the plan was to play Mayer at 3B.
It’s a possibility.
If you haven’t seen it already. And if you enjoy a good laugh immediately followed by a good cry. I recommend on YouTube type in all ben Cherington pirates team. You knew he was awful but might be worse than you even thought. I give the video a A+. Well at least a B. Took a bit too long but A+ for the idea of it.
I flipped through it to see the best and worst lists.
Van Meter was not on the best list.
Van Meter was not on the worst list.
I thought that he would have made the top five best relievers.
These three commenters probably should be two and it was awkward thusly,but the research was A+.
As far as Ben’s acquisitions,Jed Clampitt would have said “ pitiful,pitiful”.
The commentary wasn’t good. Video could have been shorter. But the subject matter idea was A+. The entire team other than Skenes Jones is Huntingtons team still after 5 freaking years. Like I said I laughed and then cried. I knew it was bad but this video really drove it home.
JVM didn’t play enough and played multiple positions. He was never at 1 position long enough to put up enough negative war.
The best part is when buying at the trade deadline above 500 pushing for playoffs. The 2 guys Ben traded for are the worst players he had in 5 years lol. To go along with his worst 1b. Yikes.
I agree with you that he has made some good trades and signings.
He did not give up much for IKF and de la Cruz.
And yes,JVM did play a lot of positions,but some of these guys played relatively few games at the position also.
My biggest gripe with BC is keeping Haines and then Shelton and not changing development people more quickly.
I have generally agreed with his personnel decisions for the players that he has but I do not think that he thinks outside of the box as much as he needs to to maximize talent.
Not platooning Suwinski is a perfect example.
It does not seem to me that he has any more years to toe the line based on Nutting suddenly firing NH and Clint Hurdle.BC’s best bet would have been to change Shelton out also but he was too loyal to him which to me implies that he is the one making many of the decisions historically made by the manager.
I have same gripe. Haines 2 years too late. Shelton now will be 2 years too late. Development people at least 2 years too late. Guys having t go to 3rd party training facilities. Calling child hood friends. Secret meetings with Altoona coach. A guy literally had to build his own training center and have his friend and college teammate from another mlb team train him. But you just now realized you had a development problem.
In fairness to Cherington his words and actions said I should have been fired. He admitted failure and took most the responsibility. Nutting should have fired him. So Cherington won’t receive any future blame from me. 2025 season is all on Nutting.
And from Cheringtons comments I took it’s either have at least a winning record or I am fired. So if things don’t turn around it’s his last year unless Nutting chickens out or changes mind for some reason. I don’t think he would. It’s win or bye bye for Cherington in 2025.
And look at Cruz IKF stats with previous team. They weren’t great but ok enough players. I didn’t see anyone thinking they would be that awful. Just victims of sss and didn’t take to the change of scenery. I’m fine with him taking a swing and missing. I graded every single trade at the deadline. Prices were insanely high. So I won’t complain.
How sad is this? Over 250 comments about a trade that didn’t happen.