The Pirates announced the acquisition of first baseman/second baseman Spencer Horwitz from the Guardians for a three-player package: righty Luis Ortiz and left-handed pitching prospects Josh Hartle and Michael Kennedy. Cleveland dealt Horwitz within hours of acquiring him from the Blue Jays in this afternoon’s Andrés Giménez deal.
Horwitz, 27, looks as if he’ll get a crack at Pittsburgh’s starting first base job. He would’ve been an imperfect fit on a Cleveland team that already has Josh Naylor and Kyle Manzardo. There’s a much clearer path to playing time in Pittsburgh. The Bucs used Rowdy Tellez as their primary first baseman for most of the ’24 season. He didn’t perform well and was cut loose at the end of the year.
The lefty-hitting Horwitz has shown offensive promise both in Triple-A and the big leagues. He turned in an impressive .265/.357/.433 batting line over 381 plate appearances this year. Horwitz picked up 12 homers and 19 doubles while showing excellent strike zone awareness. He walked at an 11% clip while striking out 18.4% of the time.
Horwitz has a stellar minor league track record. He’s a career .316/.433/.471 hitter with nearly as many walks as strikeouts in 208 Triple-A games. He clearly has offensive ability, but he’s yet to get a full MLB run because of a lack of defensive value. Horwitz has been a first baseman for most of his minor league career. His 5’10” frame and hit-over-power approach are rare at that position. Toronto used him as part of their second base mix as well, but teams don’t seem to view him as an everyday player there.
The Bucs don’t have a great option at second base either. Nick Gonzales is the in-house favorite on the heels of a pedestrian .270/.311/.398 showing. The Pirates will probably stick with Gonzales at the keystone and use Horwitz at first, but the latter is at least capable of kicking over to second base as a fill-in option.
Horwitz has yet to reach a full year of MLB service. He’s under club control for six years. He’ll very likely be eligible for arbitration after two seasons as a Super Two qualifier, but the Bucs will get a couple years of what they hope is a plug-and-play first baseman on roughly league minimum salaries. It’s questionable whether Horwitz has sufficient power to profile as an everyday option. If he hits his ceiling, he’d probably project as a LaMonte Wade Jr. type who gets on base enough to be a solid regular. Pittsburgh’s first-year hitting coach Matt Hague worked for Toronto in recent years and is surely bullish on Horwitz’s offensive acumen.
Ortiz is the only member of the trio heading to Cleveland who has MLB experience. The 25-year-old righty has pitched in a swing role over the past couple years. Ortiz struggled over his first two seasons but turned in a quietly strong ’24 campaign. He started 15 of 37 appearances and logged 135 2/3 innings of 3.32 ERA ball. Ortiz managed solid results no matter what role he was asked to play. He turned in a 3.22 mark out of the rotation while allowing 3.49 earned runs per nine in relief.
The underlying profile didn’t match the strong ERA. Ortiz neither gets ground-balls nor strikeouts at high rates. His 8.8% swinging strike percentage was well below average. To his credit, Ortiz did take a major step forward with his control this year. After walking at least 12% of opponents in his first two seasons, he limited the free passes to a 7.6% clip.
Ortiz will have a tough time repeating this year’s success unless he finds a way to miss more bats. That’s not out of the question, as he has intriguing raw stuff. Ortiz sits in the 95-96 MPH range with both his four-seam and sinking fastball. He found a lot of success with a mid-80s slider that served as his top secondary offering. If he can sustain this year’s command while finding a better swing-and-miss pitch, he’d have a shot to be a mid-rotation arm. If not, he could find himself back in the bullpen as a long reliever.
The Guardians have a solid track record of pitching development, but they’re thin in the rotation for the second straight season. Tanner Bibee is the only lock for their season-opening rotation. Gavin Williams and Ben Lively will probably occupy back-end roles. Ortiz has a decent shot of cracking the front five, which would also include one of Triston McKenzie, Logan Allen or Joey Cantillo if they don’t make any further additions. Shane Bieber re-signed and could factor in by May or June as he works back from Tommy John surgery.
It’s still a relatively weak group, but the Guardians papered over a poor rotation by relying on a dominant bullpen this past season. While they’ll likely need to do so again, Cleveland could add at least one more starter via free agency or trade. Pittsburgh has a lot of upper level pitching talent, so Ortiz would’ve had an uphill battle to hold off arms like Thomas Harrington and Bubba Chandler for a rotation spot.
Ortiz lands between one and two service years. He’s at least one season from arbitration and could find himself on the border of Super Two eligibility next winter. Regardless of whether he gets to arbitration early, he won’t become a free agent for five seasons.
The Bucs also pay a bit of a prospect price to even the deal. Hartle was Pittsburgh’s third-round pick this summer. The Wake Forest product entered the spring as a potential first-round talent before struggling to a 5.97 ERA in his junior season.
Baseball America wrote in their draft report that Hartle has good command with fringy stuff. He sits in the low 90s with roughly average secondary pitches. It’s not the highest-upside profile on paper, but this is the type of arm with whom the Guardians’ player development department has thrived. Bibee and Bieber were also command-oriented college draftees whose stuff didn’t take off until they got into pro ball. While that’s certainly not a guarantee that Hartle will progress the same way, it’s not a surprise that he’s of interest to Cleveland.
Kennedy, 20, was a fourth-round pick out of a New York high school in 2023. He made 18 appearances in the low minors this year, working to a 3.66 ERA with a near-28% strikeout rate over 83 2/3 frames. As with Hartle, he draws praise for his athleticism and control but has subpar velocity. They’re each developmental fliers who have a shot to stick as starters if their stuff comes along.
Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic first reported the Pirates were acquiring Horwitz. Mark Feinsand of MLB.com had the return going to Cleveland. Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet suggested earlier this evening that Horwitz might end up being flipped to Pittsburgh. Images courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Kk 4
Wut
Goku the Knowledgable One
Pirates 1B solution
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I like the trades for Blue Jays and Pirates, not so much for Guardians. Guardians are pretty smart though….
User 3716094111
Then you haven’t watched Ortiz. Somewhat amazing that the Pirates would opt to trade him for a guy who likely will do very little for this anemic offense. Meanwhile, I expect Ortiz to do quite well for Cleveland.
Goku the Knowledgable One
I think Horwitz is insanely well rounded batter.
This is far better than any of the crusty vet FA 1B I had been suggesting for Pirates (Bell/Santana/Goldy)
Horwitz like the Bryan Reynolds of 1B, literally a plus in every batting category and never strikes out.
We’re talking about a prime talent that was blocked by Vlad in Toronto and Naylor for 2 hours in Cleveland
I do think Cleveland intended to trade Naylor, but Pittsburgh changed their mind with a pretty hefty offer for Horwitz.
Ortiz is good pitcher entering his prime too, but Pirates had 3 guys fighting over the final 2 rotation spots.
.. so this gives way to Oviedo and Falter behind the Big3 until Bubba is ready
User 3716094111
Again, you’re placing your hopes on an iffy left hander, a guy coming back from TJ and a rookie. Meanwhile, Ortiz was their real number 2 down the stretch
Typical Pirates move
All of what you have explained may be true, but it’s basic economics and nothing more
Instead of bringing in a legitimate 1st baseman, they again opt for the cheap
All to again play into the small market/cash strapped myth that KC, Baltimore, Cleveland, Milwaukee blow holes in
Most pathetic owner in baseball.
Goku the Knowledgable One
For the number 4 & 5 spots in the rotation?
Ya that’s solid, especially given Oviedo’s upside as a legit 3
I do believe they did just acquire a very legit 1B.
Off-season is not over and they still have whatever funds they were going to use on 1B to address the closer situation.
I’d include RF, but I’m pretty sure it will end up being Henry Davis unless he’s traded.
User 3716094111
But again, Oviedo is returning from TJ surgery. Before that he was a .500 pitcher. Falter is a .500 pitcher. You can’t count on Bubba yet
And let’s be serious. They have Skenes. Jones looks like he’ll be a good pitcher. And they have Keller, who goes through stretches where he can’t keep his fastball off of Main Street and can place his spin pitches.
You may be right about Horwitz, but this was an overpay, that’s all. Ortiz have you starts where he always kept the Pirates in the game where Keller often didn’t down the stretch.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Ortiz has a lot of upside but I wouldn’t put him too far ahead Oviedo, if at all.
Ortiz was very competent through 5, but needs to keep building up to be a real QS guy.. luckily for him, he’ll be in a great situation in Cleveland to get the absolute best out of him.
I guess we just disagree on the value of Horwitz.
I think we just traded 3 ok guys with upside for a proven commodity at a position of need.
TheMan 3
PNC Park was constructed using Pennsylvania state revenue from taxes and is commonly referred to as the nicest park in baseball.
Having a beautiful park to watch baseball at is the only positive aspect of a franchise whose owner values profits above winning
User 3716094111
I just boned up on Horwitz and watched a number of highlight reels. I like his swing. I like that he seems to play with some fire, something sorely lacking here
Hope you’re right
IsIt2025Already?
A .500 pitcher with the offense and fielding Cherington has put together is actually pretty good…
YourDreamGM
Rowdy tellez was insanely well rounded
Goku the Knowledgable One
I was thinking the same thing lol
More importantly Oviedo boats a consistent career 8 k/9 with a WHIP around 1.39
As for Falter, he’s never going to be anything special, but I’d take anyone who dialed up 1.28 WHIP in close to 30 starts last year as my number 5 in a rotation
User 3716094111
That’s simply not true
I have to wonder if some here watch this team and specifically pitchers, game in and game out
Ortiz kept the team in games despite little run support and shaky defense. I can remember one poor start
In calling Oviedo a .500 pitcher, I was alluding to numerous starts where he either couldn’t find the plate or lived dead red and got shellacked
Falter is probably somewhere in between but doesn’t have the heat of either
Goku the Knowledgable One
The stats say otherwise, despite being, like I said, good over 5 ip , he only had 7 QS in his 15 starts, and doesn’t strike out many batters
YourDreamGM
Goku has me muted but teams don’t even look at wins. Don’t look at era. Don’t look at whip. Don’t look at quality starts. You need 6 innings for a quality start. 3 runs or less. You think they aren’t happy with 5.2 0 runs or 1 run etc? They aren’t happy with 7 8 innings 4 runs? You think the only reason they collect all this data is so Brownie can scream in excitement about how many mph the cruz missile was? It’s because they want useful data not back of baseball card garbage. No offense to my beloved old timers. I like a 20 game winner as much as the next guy but deGrom was the best pitcher in baseball in years he struggled to get above .500
And Cleveland doesn’t give a rats as how many strike outs he had as pirate. Just like Tampa didn’t care about Glasnow Pirates stats. Yankees didn’t care about Holmes Pittsburgh stats. Houston Cole well you catch my drift.
TheMan 3
Rowdy also ran ( more like walked) like a robust lard
User 3716094111
Yeah, agreed completely.
Old timer or not, Ortiz is clearly the best of all options that have been listed here. I was carping about him a year ago and the Pirates finally came around. Had a solid year. Gamer. I feel good that he’s going to a contender
Macbeth
Gringo who else would they bring in for 1B that would both outperform Horwitz and be a reasonable trade or signing?
User 3716094111
Mac, that’s not the point. I mean, look who they’ve had over there the past few years
You just don’t trade a guy who looked to be on the cusp of being a solid starter for a question mark, that’s all.
Yeah, they need someone to play 1st. And yeah, they’re not going to spend any money
But jeez, how do you make this kind of trade?
YourDreamGM
@Macbeth really though @GringoStar he will enjoy this more.
How about anyone who isn’t a platoon player? Walker, oh wait can’t have the payroll going over 80 90 million. Goldschmidt that’s still gonna put you over 90m. How about Santana? Bell? Heck even that Rizzo rumor sounds better than trading 3 young pitchers for a platoon. Put Reynolds there. Heck bring back Rowdy and Joe. Make a real trade. Teams are paying 15 and 20 million to anyone with a working arm. 12m for non working arms. No one wants Ortiz? No one wants pitching prospects? Only Cleveland? And only for this platoon? Cant even get Naylor? Cleveland front office had a good laugh over this trade. They sounded just like Paul did in 2024 in every single article. Why didn’t they just sign Carlos Santana?
Maybe our new hitting coach can teach him how to hit LHP. Then again it was the same coach who failed to do so in Toronto.
On the bright side trading 3 young starting pitchers for a platoon 1b doesn’t come remotely close to cracking the top 10 worst pirates trades!
My new grading scale to adjust for Cheringtons awfulness.
A+ for Pirates. Awful trade. Totally fleeced. But at least he didn’t give them Bubba!
User 3716094111
I just don’t get it Dream. The trade or those here saying “good deal for the Pirates”
Didn’t anyone watch Ortiz over his last six or seven (or more) starts? Yeah, there was Skenes as number one, but this guy was number two. Point blank. Period. Not Falter. Not Jones and not even Keller
Consistent outings every time.
Is it that fans here think it’s just a flash in the pan idea? That it wasn’t real?
I have to believe there are many writing who just don’t watch the games
Trading Falter or Oviedo for this return made much more sense
Here, you’ve taken a huge chunk out of your rotation in return for very little.
I mean, it’s just incredible. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop—that we must be missing something
Yeah, this goes down as one of the franchise’s worst trades in many moons
TheMan 3
you’ll love this rumor; Dream.
Ben might bring Grandal back to catch Skenes and they are looking to trade Davis if they sign Grandal
TheMan 3
this trade ranks a close second to obtaining DLC last year
Give Ben credit, he’s consistent
YourDreamGM
I do love it. Just so I can find a stretch where he hits 300. Worth it so I can say Grandpal. My most simple yet most awesome nickname I use. I don’t care that he can’t throw anymore. Nutting doesn’t care about winning so why should I? They can trade Endy and Bart as well. I would find it more entertaining for Grandpal to start every day. Or he can platoon at 1b since we don’t have a everyday starter there! Bam I am on fire today.
YourDreamGM
Hey. I told you guys in 2020 2021 2022 2023 that I have to give Cherington enough time to fairly evaluate him. You can’t fix Player development over night. These people don’t grow on trees. But after that and he fails I will trash him more than anyone. Have I kept my word? Am I still a Cherington Nutting apologist?
YourDreamGM
I think Ortiz is a #4. #5 at worst. If Cleveland gets his stuff to up tick just a bit he is a strong 4 at worst.
TheMan 3
Horowitz struck out 70 times last year and didn’t play in every game.
Claiming he never strikes out is a blatant lie
TheMan 3
I don’t recall seeing anyone
calling you an
apologist, Dream.
Perhaps other expletives maybe
User 3716094111
I go to the PG’s site a moment ago and see Jason Mackey’s update from the winter meetings. “Keller and Jones Available”
The idea is to trim payroll and shore up the offense
What a sickening team
User 3716094111
post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2024/12/11/rumors-…
Goku the Knowledgable One
70 k’s in 328 ABs is incredibly good
How much better do you want him to do in that department? Lol
Goku the Knowledgable One
Right now I’m peachy with them pretty much just adding a vet closer free agent and not really doing much else, imo
… if they trade Jones or Keller, though, my interest in the team will be minimal, starting the exact minute they’d make such a move.
Having Jones and Keller behind Skenes is by far the best thing this team has going for it
Goku the Knowledgable One
I’m really hoping PG got old/false information late, that was regarding a potential Naylor trade
Call me crazy, but I do feel that Ben called initially to discuss a Naylor deal, but both teams found themselves more comfortable trading their less proven players
User 3716094111
Well, Mackey and Hiles are there and these are pretty much “live updates”
Here’s my thing. If you’re open to trading Keller and/or Jones and the idea is to trim payroll, why are you holding onto the team?
You have no business being in MLB when you already have one of the lowest payrolls
And if it’s offense you’re looking for and you’re dangling these two, why not just trade Skenes now?
Seriously
People say the A’s are the joke of MLB
Not so. Nutting has turned the Pirates into the laughing stock
User 3716094111
This site being “trade rumors” and all, would love to see someone here get to the bottom of it
YourDreamGM
See what they do. I can stomach this trade. Jones isn’t a big guy. How well will he hold up? Other teams are thinking this as well. Hard to see a trade return that is worth it. But if possible I am fine with it. For trading anyone if it makes the franchise better. Cherington doesn’t seem like the gm to do it though.
TheMan 3
Does Cherington realize that Skenes can’t pitch 162 games?
I am no longer surprised by the incompetence of this organization
TheMan 3
you said that he doesn’t strike out, his stats say otherwis.
With 550 at bats his total would be 117
they have enough players who strike out 100+ times in a season
TheMan 3
considering that Jones makes the league minimum, how much money does Ben expect to save by trading him?
User 3716094111
I’m thinking the two rationales applied to the two pitchers separately. Keller….save salary money. Jones…bring in some bats
You know, it’s hilarious. It really is
TheMan 3
what I understand from reading the article, they are more interested in trading Keller because his salary for now year is $15 million and Ben wants to improve the offense by trading Mitch.
question is which team will fleece Ben for Keller?
User 3716094111
We both know that the “haul” Mitch fetches will be 3 or 4 kids you’ve never heard of
User 3716094111
So I have to ask you…if they dump Keller, does it indicate another rebuild?
TheMan 3
exactly!
Keller for 4 low level prospects and Ben will claim it’s for the future (one that never arrives)
TheMan 3
Tired and I often joked about this franchise’s propensity to having perpetual rebuids during our conversations last year so it wouldn’t surprise me if this is what happens
User 3716094111
I *am* Tired. Please forgive me as I lose passwords, have corresponding email addresses archive on me for lack of usage and run into problems with MLBTR because although I do not use a VPN, the site believes I am corresponding from overseas
I’m hopeful that this is the end of the shenanigans.
Goku the Knowledgable One
The Man3,
“you said that he doesn’t strike out, his stats say otherwis.
With 550 at bats his total would be 117”
Bro……. literally every single player strikes out 100 times
Ohtani struck out 162
Soto 119
Coup
117 would make Howitz be in the top 1/5th of the league in that category
200 is really bad.
100 is phenomenal (JRam 82 , Vlad 96)
Arreaz is the only guy who truly never strikes out (29 k in 2024).. total freak of nature
YourDreamGM
@GringoStar Depends what they get in return and who they sign.
They could have shopped every starter they had other than Skenes and seen what the best offers were. Preferring to trade Ortiz or Falter but kept options open. Now that they traded one they may be done. Or they could trade Falter as well and simply replace him with fan favorite Perez or Quintana.
YourDreamGM
@GringoEduardo All that travel and correspondence with your latin lovers like Eduardo makes them think you are outside of USA.
YourDreamGM
Paul has zero tolerance so choose your words wisely. “Striking out 29 times in a season isn’t NEVER! It’s 29 times!”
User 3716094111
You obviously have me confused with some of your Thai friends. Female flamenco dancers? Maybe. Male waiters….not really my thing, not that there’s anything wrong with that
YourDreamGM
“I been a pirates fan since 1902” “Honus never struck out 100 times, that’s why he was my favorite player to watch.”
TheMan 3
Ohtani also has extreme power and the ability to drive in multiple runs in each plate appearance
TheMan 3
and don’t call me Bro
Paul is my given name
TheMan 3
I used to lose or forget my passwords too until I developed a second email address and listed passwords for each account that required them and would send each to the new account from my other account
TheMan 3
every player strikes out.
Even good contact hitters.
Our own Cruz struck out over 180 times last year. Everyone speaks of his raw power but he’s never Ohtani or Soto. He’s a free swinger and who still doesn’t know the strike zone
Not putting the ball in play won’t score runs and this team was near the bottom of the league in runs scored last season
TheMan 3
Sounds more like Rebuilding again
Bucfan21
Ortiz’ peripherals tell the real story. He is good, not close to great. 4.25 FIP. 4.59 xFIP. Really below-average 8.8% swinging strike rate.
Pirates fans: “Idiot Cherington needs to sell high on guys!”
Also Pirates fans: “Oh my God, don’t sell a guy overperforming!”
Bucfan21
Yep. Compare to Ortiz, who has a career 6.9 K/9 and a 1.33 WHIP.
IsIt2025Already?
The Pirates have a lot of good pitching and one good hitter in Bryan Reynolds. That’s the deal here.
RagingFE
Dang, I was kind up on Horwitz for the Guards. Hope the return is worth it.
PTkirk
Return is Ortiz Hartle and a random milb sp prospect
mlb1225
Kennedy is pretty good, he did great last year and could be the best of those three.
Chrome 8550
Hardle no.17 on pirates Luis Ortiz and Mike kennedy.
paddyo furnichuh
That seems like a lot for just Horwitz, as impressive as his ’24 season was.
PTkirk
Yeah Ortiz is a great get by cleveland
Goku the Knowledgable One
Luis L. Ortiz showed he’s a big league starter
The way Cleveland gets the most out of their SPs, this could end up being a good get for them
cr4
Ortiz has all the tools to be the next Cleveland revamp project not that he was bad before but he has the tools to be a solid no. 2 and Kennedy is a fun lottery ticket with nice tools
energel
Chrome 8550. “Not hardle”, Hartle
User 3716094111
He doesn’t need to be revamped. He’s going to excel in Cleveland. Just a solid, hard throwing, hard working young guy
Cleveland gave up little for a guy who’s going to win 10+ games health-willing
Yankee Clipper
Might be good news for you guys though…. Perhaps Naylor won’t be moved after all.
YourDreamGM
Terrible news Clipper. You trade the more expensive soon to be free agent 1b and keep the minimum wage one!!!
Getting 3 young pitchers for a platoon 1b that you just got for absolutely free is pretty nice return. These aren’t blue chip prospects or elite or even great. A lot of odds beating needs to happen. Ortiz is a pencil in #4 though.
TheMan 3
knowing Ben’s track record of trades
(can anyone sy DLC?)
if Horowitz doesn’t work out, Ben needs to be shown the door
User 3716094111
Yet another ridiculous trade from a pathetic GM here in Pittsburgh.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Dang?
calibucsfan
Good baseball trade. Kennedy and Ortiz are good arms. I was high on Kennedy.
AaronJudgeMVP29
Lol… all I gotta say. Gleyber Torres to Guardians now?
Yankee Clipper
I saw that the two teams currently leasing the Gleyber race are the Blue Jays (although I’m assuming they’re out because of Gininez?), and the ANGELS….
YourDreamGM
He is so so Angels. Perfect match
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Torres and Arenado to Angels. Where is the Riddler’s laugh when you need it?
CKinSTL
I don’t think the Guardians will sign anyone for 2B. They need to keep 2B clear for when Bazzana is ready. They have a few guys internally that are worthy of an extended look at the majors in the meantime.
solaris602
CLE’s system is full of middle infielders. My guess is Schneemann will get the bulk of the starts there next year with maybe Juan Brito getting a shot. Gabriel Arias just hasn’t worked out at the major league level, but for whatever reason the FO wants him playing on a regular basis.
harrycarey
I guess they will not be giving him Rowdy like incentives and then cut him before achieving them.
YourDreamGM
Minimum wage is all he gets
solaris602
I hope Horwitz works out at 1B because that position has been a revolving door of subpar journeymen since Josh Bell’s departure. I thought PIT might bring Bell back on a modest contract, but in Horwitz they pay minimum wage which is why they find him so appealing.
mlb1225
All I can say is that I’m happy. Did not think Ben could pull that off, but the Pirates might actually have a competent first baseman for the first time since Kevin Young.
dpcollects
Adam LaRoche was definitely “competent”.
YourDreamGM
This proves any gm can trade a young #4 mlb ready starter and 2 additional pitching prospects for a platoon 1b. Lets not build the Cherington statue yet.
Scott Kliesen
He was awful until the season was lost, then he became a great stat filler in meaningless games in 2nd half of season. That’s how this Pirates fan remembers him.
Rww59
Minor leagues for first half with Vladdy blocking him at first base.
Second base was only about getting his bat in the lineup.Jays were were buried by the time he debuted
TheMan 3
except that LaRoche was a slow starter, and by the time he began to hit, the team was out of contention
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Same day huh
Why didn’t Cleveland just use horwitz for a year and then let bazanna do his thing in 2026?
FartJesus
Because now they add two potential starters that have stalled in another system. And Cleveland develops pitchers better than most. And that’s for a 1b prospect with little power.
Col_chestbridge
I’m thinking they’re planning on using Juan Brito and/or Gabriel Arias at 2B this year.
stymeedone
Because Horwitz is not a 2B. He is a 1B. Cleveland has better options.
Salzilla
Because Horwitz is a 1b by trade. Toronto was playing him out of position to get him in the lineup.
YourDreamGM
It would be like your team trading woo and 2 20 to 30 range prospects. How could Cleveland say no?
Diggydugler
What the hell is Atkins doing!
YourDreamGM
Taking on 23m a year that Cleveland is thrilled to dump, hoping Gimenez doesn’t slow down. Oh and giving away a 1b capable of getting a #4 young starter and 2 prospects just for the heck of it.
Ratherbesailing
Your just going to hate anything that Adkins does. They got the best player in the trade and he’s here long term.
scissormetimbers
CLE probably has a role for him once he gets fired in TOR. He’s just making sure he squeezes the Jay’s of any competitive hope for the next 10 years.
wvsteve
Even fair for both sides. Ortiz may have been pirates second best starter at the end of the year. Pirates finally got a young controlable side first baseman. Hopefully they make some real noise in right
bucsfan0004
Why include Cleveland at all? Horwitz for Ortiz would have been a good trade. Instead the Jays stockpiled another light-hitting infielder. Ortiz throws harder than anyone on the Jays roster.
Horwitz is a great addition for the Bucs. Instead of just plugging him in the #2 or #6 hole and letting him do his thing, i foresee Shelton jerking him around in the lineup daily
This one belongs to the Reds
Interesting deal. Good for both, I think.
solaris602
So in essence they turned Gimenez and Sandlin into Luis Ortiz? I know they need rotation help, but PIT didn’t know what to do with this guy. Somebody in the FO must see a future none of the rest of us can.
alwaysgo4two
You’ll like Ortiz, at least the second half version of him. The Pirates are overloaded in pitching, hopefully Horwitz can hit enough for a 1b.
FartJesus
No they turn Gimenez, sandlin, Horowitz, and $100million, into two pitching prospects and nick Mitchell. Which is a solid move.
You missed the guaranteed dozens of millions.
pohle
am i the only one who thinks the guards made out well here? a good young swingman and two pitchers drafted in the 3rd and 4th round of their drafts, the latter of which has been successful down on the farm, while the former was just drafted this year.
FartJesus
No, you replied to my comment that explained why the guardians got a good deal.
YourDreamGM
Ortiz isn’t a swingman. Solid #4 starter. 5th at worst.
panj341
You are correct, Pirates are easily fleeced.
YourDreamGM
Price for Santana must have got above 3 million. It was either sign Rowdy again or make this trade.
Salzilla
Well this makes more sense now. Dumped Gimenez’s salary and flipped Horwitz (who wasn’t needed in Cleveland) to Pittsburgh who need a 1b. Spencer was pretty decent last season. Essentially this was a three team deal in two portions.
YourDreamGM
Who needed a 1b that doesn’t cost $. They could have signed Walker… Yeah right but Goldy maybe, Santana for sure. Josh Bell shouldn’t break the bank but as Paul says, they signed Rowdy because Santana cost 2 million more..
Grr arg grr
I’m a jays fan and I’m kinda shocked
How does Spencer Horowitz have this much value.
I mean he put up a nice half season…. But this is a shocker to me!
Diggydugler
Atkins is a horrible GM, that is why.
tomyo10
Didn’t Shapiro teach him all he needs to know in Cleveland?
Ratherbesailing
I agree he is not good, but what did he do wrong on this trade?
Too many people just hate just for the sake of hate.
But if you look at the individual trade, he fid good here.
I really don’t want to give him credit, but he does get credit on this one.
Grr arg grr
Yup Jimenez had something like a 7.4 war 2 years ago and is only 26.
kwolf68
You got depth guys. Pittsburgh won’t miss any of these players
YourDreamGM
2 prospects will take elite pitching development to get anything significant out of them. So unless your team can do that they aren’t that valuable. Ortiz though is legit mlb starter. Lots of years. Pirates (who have former Jays hitting coach ) fell in love with this guy. Bit of a overpay. Hope they are as smart as they think they are.
debubba
Cleveland has Elite pitching development. Bieber and Kluber were players no one heard of and Cleveland worked their magic.
Goku the Knowledgable One
.790 OPS and never strikes out
TheMan 3
never?
YourDreamGM
If you combine him with Canha the Pirates will have a all star 1b
Black_Pearl
Seems like a steep give for a part-time player and Canha’s best days are behind him.
YourDreamGM
400 abs. And they could teach him to hit lhp……. Over pay I agree but not too bad.
Mike Adamson
The Pirates gave up Ortiz and 2 prospects for a guy that made a season at 27? Rather have Ortiz.
Led Hoyer
Ortiz was pretty good last year. I am stunned they had to add prospects to the deal.
Mike Adamson
Yea me too… It seems like just Ortiz was too much but you make it out of positional need.
benhen77
Guards playing 3d chess
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Nope, Toronto is playing 3D Hangry Hangry Hippo
ChefDaddy7
Seems Like A Decent Trade For Both Teams Heading Into Spring Training!
I definitely didn’t see this trade coming either, just like the first one the Guardians Pulled Off, Good For Them & the Pirates too!
Rsox
That was fast
HalosHeavenJJ
I figured the first trade would set up a Naylor trade.
Really nice day for Cleveland picking up Ortiz and freeing up cash.
Hope Pittsburgh cones out good as well.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
There go the rumors of Anthony Rizzo signing with the Pirates. Thank goodness for that. That would be awful. It would be like seeing Derek Lee in a Pirates uniform.
getrealgone2
I forgot that Lee was on the Braves. I just looked up his career. Hah
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Yeah it was a weird situation. He didn’t want to waive his no trade clause finally accepted a trade to the Braves. The following series for the cubs was against ATL at Wrigley. Then he was later traded to the Pirates (Maybe it was the following season but his first games with Pittsburgh was at Wrigley Field. Crazy how that worked out like that.
It was Baltimore that traded him to the Pirates in 2011
On a positive note he was traded from SD TO FLA for Kevin Brown.
TheMan 3
or signing Michael A Taylor for his offense but I wouldn’t put anything past Cherington
I think he will still sign Rizzo
holecamels35
Don’t worry, they can still sign Joey Gallo and talk about his defensive flexibility and power “potential”.
El Kabong
Spencer for Hire.
Samuel
It’s spelled with a “s”…..like the poet.
El Kabong
I know, but it sounds the same.
TJECK109
With the price of pitching on the open market, you’d think the Pirates could have worked for more in a deal involving Ortiz who is still only 25.
Seems like an overpay by the Pirates just to say you have a 1B
Goku the Knowledgable One
They got one of the top blocked 1Bs in the MLB
(Not his fault they had Vlad Jr.)
I love this deal.
Horwitz reminds a lot of Reynolds at the plate.
I’ll take him over any of the clunky vet FAs I’ve been suggesting
User 3716094111
That’s amazingly short sighted, Goku
You trade one of their better starters for a question mark and say you love the trade? I just don’t see how that’s possible
Goku the Knowledgable One
He’s not a question mark at all to me, Gringo
He had a .790 OPS in 381 plate appearances last year in his rookie season, after looking great in his cup of tea in 2023
YourDreamGM
All this .790 ops talk. What about the .194 batting average and .522 ops vs LHP? I love a platoon more than anyone. Do we agree? Remember Joe Suwinski? I ain’t thrilled about trading Ortiz and 2 prospects for one though. I’m hoping the geniuses have a fix to make him everyday player. I won’t be placing any bets on it though.
No questions mark for me!!!!!! .194 batting average is nothing to be concerned about!!!!! Shelton will coach him up!!!!!! It could just be sss. But not even the slightest bit of concern?
User 3716094111
This is the Dream magic we come for.
Yes. This is the point. I am hopeful Horwitz leads the offensive onslaught this year. But at this stage, it looks like one helluva overpay. Next to Skenes last September, no pitcher I’d have rather had on the hill in their rotation.
YourDreamGM
I wouldn’t buy into the sss bit either.
2022 2023 in minors low 200s average under 700 ops vs LHP. And the mlb LHP is drastically can’t express enough drastically better than minors.
Cant blame goku either. Didn’t see splits in article. Couldn’t find any mention of them in any scouting report.
I wonder if Cherington is even aware of the splits? This should be taken as a joke but yet this is realistic concern. A guy sitting on toilet can easily look them up in 45 seconds yet I wonder if Cherington did? Does he know and doesn’t care and still thinks a platoon 1b is worth 3 young starting pitchers? Or… Try not to laugh…. His coach staff is the one to teach him to hit LHP?
TheMan 3
maybe Ben made the trade while sitting on the toilet
YourDreamGM
Or had his head in it.
Goku the Knowledgable One
None of the guys they gave up were meaningful in any major capacity
Ortiz OK, but Pirates have a full rotation.
Horwitz by far the best player in the trade, thus why it was a 3 for 1
YourDreamGM
I love this goku guy. The new bright eyes
TheMan 3
that’s more believable Dream
YourDreamGM
Will put together a trade but it’s basically Horwitz for Ortiz. Hartle has little value. They just got him this summer. Wasn’t even drafted I believe. Someone you can get any year. Kennedy is dependent on projection and or just becoming a command master. Not a elite arm. Has value but probably a back rotation guy at best. Just have to think about how I value Ortiz. Leaning towards win win trade.
Horwitz. 1b. Doesn’t strike out. Walks. Crushed rhp at a 800 ops. Stunk vs LHP. Pirates just hired a Jays hitting coach. He should know this guy better than anyone. Sees more power coming? Cause he hasn’t hit the ball hard yet. Ability to hit LHP? Lots of team control. Interesting his home away splits. SSS or something he didn’t like. New hitting coach would know the answer.
El Kabong
For Cleveland, it’s really Gimenez for Ortiz. This is a shrewd move for a pitching-conscious organization that will also welcome Bieber back at some point.
YourDreamGM
Opps had the wrong page up. Hartle has value. More than Kennedy. More details to come….
YourDreamGM
Won’t cry over Hartle. I never seen him pitch an entire game though so not a expert on him. I do have notes on him and he’s a major project with chance of high upside. With Pirates development his value is probably at a all time high. I have no confidence of them developing him. Best used as trade chip.
I seen Kennedy though and I won’t cry over him. Nice slider but he really needs more fastball or better changeup. Pirates have better arms.
debubba
Cleveland can take guys with good command and unleash a few more miles on their fastball, which makes it average. These are the types of guys that Cleveland does well with. Control, accuracy and a decent slider are all plusses.
emptybattingavg
writing off those two prospects is a dumb, especially since Kennedy has a low velo fastball with good shape, and Guardians are one of the best teams at increasing prospect’s velo — they tend to draft low velo good FB shape guys for this very reason. Don’t undersell Ortiz, he’s probably a back end rotation guy or better with team control, and given the price of starting pitching, that means a lot. Horwitz has little power, he really is LaMonte Wade Jr at best. Pirates got fleeced.
YourDreamGM
Not dumb at all. Smart. I know the Pirates weren’t developing those 2 prospects. What Cleveland does with them is irrelevant. It’s like Glasnow Holmes. I knew they were great but they weren’t happening in Pittsburgh. These kids aren’t that but same situation, they weren’t happening in Pittsburgh.
emptybattingavg
If the pirates can’t develop pitching prospects, they should just trade all their pitching prospects for mlb ready talent. Anyways, pirates have improved their pitching development a lot in the last few years, they certainly could have developed those two guys, unlike 5 years ago. What CLE does with them is very relevant, because it indicates potential value — pirates should know how good cleveland is at developing, and then use that to gauge how CLE values the pirates prospects. They sold low on them, so I doubt they used that knowledge or thought of it.
YourDreamGM
Pirates know their value. That’s why they drafted them where they did. That’s why they are ranked in their top 20. If they thought they could get them to their ceiling though they wouldn’t make this trade. They realize how bad their development is. It’s certainly improved from 5 years ago. It went from bottom of the barrel to lower third. Much improved. Still bad.
emptybattingavg
pirates are better than lower third, and you don’t have to get a pitching prospect to their ceiling to still get value from them. Should the teams in the lower third of pitch dev just trade all their pitching prospects? I think you should consider the pirates might just have a dumb FO, how long have they been rebuilding for? and take a look at their position player talent + prospects, its dreadful even after years of rebuilding. Horwitz isn’t changing anything.
TheMan 3
The
offensive player development in the minors has been their achilles heel but their minor league pitching development has been one of the best in baseball
They fired the position player developmental staff and the worthless major league hitting coach.
Don’t write us off yet
twopitchmix
After looking at the prospects, guardians may easily walk away from this deal with a win. 3 guys who profile as starters in a time where fried gets 200+ million, for a platoon infielder
Samuel
They picked up a young OF prospect that hit extremely well in college and hen in his first year of pro ball.
YourDreamGM
Already a win. Cheaper to sign Santana than a #4 starter.
DarkSide830
Ortiz is a legit pickup. Very Guardians-esque addition.
El Kabong
Bieber for $10M and Ortiz for $747,500. That’s potentially great value in this pitching market.
TJECK109
Seems like an over pay by the Pirates. 25 year old SP coming off a nice season and you are adding prospects for a 27 yo 1B?
Seems like Jon Lieber for Brant Brown all over again.
rct
Kennedy seems like a solid prospect, too. Not sure about Hartle but he was a 3rd rounder just last year so presumably there’s some upside. Good move by Cleveland.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Horwitz was a rookie last year with a .790 OPS …. you tell me
Diggydugler
It makes no sense why Atkins just do the trade straight up with Pirates and save $90Mish over the next 5 years to re-sign Vlad.
Samuel
Because he needs a SS to replace Bo Bichette who will be gone by the end of the 2025 season at the latest.
Diggydugler
Yea you dont pay 25M for a defense first SS, you can get IKF/ Goins/ Johnny mac.
MRSHOWTIME
Tell that to Dansby Swanson and Jed Hoyer
ALL GLOVE ALL THE TIME
HalosHeavenJJ
Exactly.
Cleveland looks great. You can argue Pittsburgh did alright. But the best part for Toronto looks to be a middle inning reliever.
debubba
Sanding was being shipped because he is turn”odd man out” in the bullpen. Easily replaceable. So in essence the guards freed up 40 man space and cut 100 million in one trade. Then turned that around and found a starter for under a million, stocked up their farm system with pitching and still have money to spend on a bat for right field. I give the guards an A for these two trades.
CTS4
It’s amazing how much better Cleveland became after , the lousy GM shapiro and his total lackie atkins left..
Unfortunately they came to Toronto and are doing the same mistakes all over again.
2025 will be a disaster in Toronto until the 2 Cleveland Clowns are fired …..
El Kabong
The Jays weren’t the ones talking to the Pirates. The Guardians were. All Cleveland had to do was acquire someone the Pirates would want in exchange for Ortiz. Textbook planning by a Guardians organization with an eye for pitching talent. They don’t just acquire pitchers. They look for guys they think they can make better.
TJECK109
If the pirates were looking for a 1B you don’t think they reached out to Toronto?
I just think the jays more than likely didn’t want Ortiz and were fixated on Gimenez.
YourDreamGM
I’d rather trade Vlad for all this pitching than do what Atkins did. Gets some carbs in this guy.
Canuck2
With consistent playing time Horwitz will flourish, on base machine, power may yet develope. He really was redundant on the Jays. I’m happy for him.
Guyerbassist
Wtf is Cleveland doing. Trading a contorlable gold glover for a hitter, OK bit hard to understand but ok
Then trade the hitter for… A pitcher… We’re they watching the same playoffs I was. Pitching isn’t the issue. It’s always been hitting and they screwed the pooch again. Even if the prospects turn out, the one from tor was in single A… Maybe they are Good in 5 years
Samuel
Starting pitching IS an issue. They got a young controllable one that their excellent pitching coaches can work with. They also picked up multiple prospects that will start in the minors this coming season.
They had the #1 pick in the draft this year and selected a 2B that can hit….a lot…with power. He may even by up later in the 2025 season.
Guyerbassist
I just meant that they tend to develop pitching. I knew about the 2b, but hitters normally take time to develop more than pitchers in the draft. As a rangers fan I’m looking at Langford who was good, but people in Texas were talking like he was gonna be the next big thing taken #3 a few years back.
Also is this Luis Ortiz the same Luis Ortiz that pitched for the Rangers before? I might be way off on my time line, but I remember they had somone with that name thya was a starter and he was not good lol
Guyerbassist
Edit to my last post that isn’t the same Luis Ortiz but also again I say wtf because I just realized all the players coming back from pit are pitchers??? This team is ass offensively and they traded a decent bat for 3 pitchers and an A ball outfielder.
You cant win every game 1-0 expecting your pitchers to be perfect. That was the story of the playoffs. Heart rate sky high praying the pitching didn’t make a single mistake becuase that’s game over
HalosHeavenJJ
Cleveland gave themselves some payroll room to get a hitter, which I expect they will do next.
Guyerbassist
You have faith out front office will spend money? They are too busy bringing austin hedges back lol
debubba
Pitching was the issue. They had Bibee who could only go five and then every other starter went three, exposing and tiring out the best bullpen in baseball. They now have money to spend to find another bat, hopefully a right fielder.
jdgoat
Wouldn’t be surprised at all if Matt Hague had some input on this.
YourDreamGM
Going to go with win win trade. Real win for Cleveland. They got a lot of pitching. Who gets 3 pitchers in a trade with 1 mlb ready to go? Pirates have or hard a lot of pitching. And better much more better pitching. Is a 1b the way to go with this? Cleveland is the place for these arms though. Pirates development has failed them.
Horwitz as is strong platoon all star. So was Jack Suwinski so lets hope they don’t try to “improve him” but if they don’t improve him they gave up a lot of pitching even 1 current starter. Maybe this hitting coach can teach people to hit though. Only miss will be Ortiz. At worst I think he can be your 5th starter but I feel alright with him at 4. Especially if Cleveland gets his stuff ticked up to where it could be. Pirates have pitching but there’s goes depth. They could though sign a veteran starter.
User 3716094111
By mid-summer, you’ll regret this review
The Pirates once again dealt to get a cheap player. Nothing more. It allows a tightwad owner to again pay very little
And it places a bit more pressure in filling a hole on their starting staff. Instead of having a reliable number 4 or 5, you have a couple guys coming back from surgery and a couple of guys coming up from the farm to take the spot
It’s a pathetic owner. A pathetic GM. A pathetic franchise. But let’s keep pounding that myth of small market/low finances as the profits continue to flow in. What a sick joke this team is
YourDreamGM
I doubt it. I don’t lime this trade. Final grade is a D. See why they did it. It could work out. Just not excited about it. If they just traded Ortiz I would be pretty ok with it. If it was just the prospects I would like it. But all 3 is a lot. The 2 prospects need a lot of development to be anything special. I have no confidence in Pittsburgh doing it so let Cleveland work their magic. Both are ranked 15th to 20th most list and I concur. Ortiz though is mlb ready starter. Maybe he is due for tj and that’s why they needed to prospects or something on his medicals. I didn’t notice anything with his pitching. I think Cherington and his new hitting guru were just in love and paid up to get him now. Fomo. Last year he hit like a near all star vs RHP. Pirates could certainly use that. It could all work out. Just a high price though. A number 4 starter and 2 pitching prospects for a platoon! That plays 1b! That doesn’t sound good. I would guess and hop they shopped Ortiz. Maybe every team sees him as a 5 or swingman or reliever.
User 3716094111
Agree completely.
Overpay for a platoon 1st baseman, at best
And they laughed about the signings of Santana and then Tellez! Sheesh
Just when you thought this franchise couldn’t possibly get any cheaper, they surprise you
Look at the names that were bandied about here and local media prior to this signing/winter meeting period, from Christian Walker (lol ) to Conforto, O’Neill, Santana again and Bell….and try not to laugh
YourDreamGM
I called it again. Only wish they waited a bit so I could see more people run off these names! I won’t be surprised to see people wanting Bellinger still on trade. Or we can still get Walker just don’t bring Cutch back! Since we don’t need a 1b we can sign Hernandez!
More likely Cruz comes back. “We always wanted him” Had to wait because of roster constraints or financial constraints. Still need a weak platoon for 1b Connor Joe!
My favorite could be the old we didn’t like the available options were better than “our in house options”. It was just 2023 that Jack hit those 20 whatever hrs! We like what we seen from him this off season!
CATS44
Over a few hours, the Guardians gained a starting pitcher, two pitching prospects, a centerfield prospect, and freed up more money than they will use to pay Bieber this year. They also got out from under what at the moment looks like a future albatross contract.
Not a bad days work, although it in reality probably took weeks.
Don’t get me wrong, I think quite a lot of Gimenez, who is the best defensive 2B I’ve seen since at least Robbie Alomar. And Sandlin is a fine middle reliever.
A note on Kennedy…
A pitchability prospect with plus command is the raw material that Cleveland builds pitching staffs out of.
El Kabong
I love stuff like this. The Guardians must have put a lot of thought and planning into this off-season. It’s impressive how they orchestrated the flip so quickly to acquire a pitcher they really wanted.
Big whiffa
It’s interesting to see how the rest of their offseason will play out now. No need to trade either position player for salary relief but if the can bring in some long term pieces, maybe they dip for a season for more long term success. Well ran franchise !
CKinSTL
They also cleared a path for Bazzana. I imagine it will be either Brito or Martinez to start 2025 at 2B. Both of those guys are worth an extended look in Cleveland.
I like the deal for the Blue Jays too. I think Gimenez is a lot better offensively than he showed last year. Sandlin has had a few stretches where he was pretty dominant.
Mendoza Line 215
Spencer is another KeBryan Hayes level of player.He will hit 280 with 15 home runs and field well.
He will need to put 15 pounds of muscle on to hit over 20 home runs though.
Probably a solid player but one who will not move the needle for the Pirates.
Better than Tellez but not as good as Santana this coming year.
Ortiz came on well last year and the Guardians will improve him even more.
Should have been a one for one deal.
The proverbial injuries will cause the Pirates to use the AAA starters towards the end of the season just like they always use.
holecamels35
Not sure if Hayes is still that player. If so, his contract is a steal but he lost all his power last year, even doubles, and was never an on base guy.
El Kabong
A combination of Spencer and Hayes as corner infielders isn’t ideal for those traditional power positions. Suwinski’s and Davis’s lack of progress is holding the offense down. They need Davis to be a star. Is that now considered unlikely?
Black_Pearl
At this point I think it’s safe to say it’s unlikely.
TJECK109
Never thought I’d say he’s perhaps worse than Tony Sanchez but it sure looks like it
TheMan 3
Hayes’ back issues prevented him from having any uplift on his swing last year.
If his back issues weren’t resolved this winter he won’t be playing much next year
User 3716094111
Hayes never was that player
He had one year of filling that description and the rest of his time here has been largely anemic hitting
.280? 15 homers?
It’s his one good season here that was the aberration.
But yeah, it is that pesky, recurrent back problem that somehow allows him to play 3rd but not hit
TheMan 3
Don’t forget that he was good at eating pumpkin seeds and ignoring his position while balls were hit in his direction
TheMan 3
no one ever said that Cherington was a good GM
I keep saying this, he traded for DLC last year and he isn’t even on the team anymore
I believe Ben made this trade out of desperation.
Mendoza Line 215
Paul-Ben made it because he needed a cheap first baseman.
I think that they may plan to use Bart as the right hand hitting platoon mate if he can learn to play first baseman decently quickly in spring training.
DLC was a crap shoot and BC did not give up anything.He did nothing in Pittsburgh.
I cannot believe that even Nutting is stupid enough to keep these clowns in charge if the Pirates do not have a winning record this year.
TheMan 3
in the local newspaper, the Trib, this week, there’s an article about using Reynolds at first base against lefties
Mendoza Line 215
Casas was the guy to get but the Red Sox evidently were not enthralled with Ortiz.
He would have been worth giving up a couple of young pitchers for.
Big whiffa
Pirates had several other better options more valuable than Ortiz to get casas
Black_Pearl
They would have to give up Chandler to get Casas. Not going to happen.
YaGottaBelieveAgain
What about all the CLE fans that bought a Spencer Horwitz jersey?
Do they get a Refund? : )
debubba
Zach Meisel will have twitter fodder with that jersey!
Michael Chaney
I’m devastated. I bought a Horwitz Guardians jersey and now I can’t wear it.
It’ll have to go in my closet next to my Pablo Sandoval and Jean Segura jerseys.
Mendoza Line 215
Michael- No worries.Keep it until the Guradians get another guy named Horwitz.
holecamels35
I will miss Ortiz. He filled in admirably and pitched so well, they had no other choice but to let him keep starting. Wasn’t perfect though and prone to some rough innings. I hope this Horwitz guy is legit and not a flash in the pan. Very small sample size and not too young, late bloomer? Pirates now don’t have to worry much about 1B and can possibly go after someone with power in the outfield. But please don’t forget about rotation depth. Every team has it until injuries pop up. And they need a reliable long man.
Blue Baron
Nice move for the Pirates.
Big whiffa
Nice move for all 3 teams ! Be interesting to see what pirates do next
rmullig2
Damnit, I already bought 5 Horowitz Guardian jerseys. What am I supposed to do now?
El Kabong
Hope he becomes a superstar so you can sell them as Horwitz rarities. Those jerseys might buy you a house (or, at the very least, a Galley Boy at Swenson’s).
PuttPutt⁰³
Big time move here.
Mendoza Line 215
Hole- I think that Falter can be the long man.He pitched well early last year but got tired towards the end of the year as he had never pitched that many innings before.
This means that they are looking for Bubba to be the fifth starter with Oviedo penciled in as the fourth.No veteran reinforcement though.
Ashcraft is always hurt and Harrington is too young.Burrowes evidently will be the backup.
And mediocre veteran starters are $10 M minimum now.
I hope that Horwitz works out well.
TheMan 3
Keller didn’t exactly pitch well after the All Star game either which has become an annual occurrence for him
Mendoza Line 215
He may be the one to be traded with his salary and the need for an outfielder and relievers.
Keller is either very good or very bad.
He took many years to get this way too but he may be able to get someone good in trade.
PiratePartyTime412
Cherington drafted Horwitz with TOR & new hitting coach Matt Hague ex blue j both must like something but CLE got a solid arm back in Ortiz were getting Oviedo back Chandler Ashcraft Harrington Solometo etc plenty of depth good move for both & we’re not tossing millions at a guy like Rowdy who has years of control I’ll take it ☠️
Scott Kliesen
Definitely the right move for Pirates.
YourDreamGM
A for Cleveland. Don’t see how they could have done better from any other team unless Toronto wanted him back.
D for Pittsburgh. Too cheap to pay for a 1b. Zero confidence in player development. Too much confidence in developing this 1b.
Maybe seeing Ortiz starting playoff games and these prospects climbing up the rankings will get Nutting to fire Cherington. Maybe they make this 1b into a real all star and Cherington gets another extension.
TheMan 3
or maybe the sky will turn green and Nutting sells the franchise
User 3716094111
It’s fun to read MLBTR daily and see the moves literally every other team in MLB is making….and then see the Pirates moves
It borders somewhere between hilarious and pathetic.
Yet another ridiculous trade/signing from a GM who clearly is overmatched in his role
User 3716094111
Misread your previous comment on this trade and agree completely here
I get that Cherington is an empty suit
But the problem here is Nutting, arguably the worst owner this franchise has ever had
YourDreamGM
He doesn’t put the team in any danger of financial trouble! Lol.
Ever see that gringo movie with mel Gibson? I never gave it a try.
User 3716094111
Hmmmm. No, I never heard of that one
YourDreamGM
Get the gringo. Reviews scores look ok. Mexican prison movie I dunno. I want something with pirates in it.
User 3716094111
Well, I’ll give it a shot. I took this name after my waiter on a recent trip to Mexico had the name of Eduardo. Good natured kid. Called me “gringo”
I may have to move down there
But hey, no Thai ladyboys in the region
Mendoza Line 215
I hope that you did not drink the water there.
YourDreamGM
I imagine “the gringo” put worse things in his mouth than water!
Bluejay4life
They say Spencer Value is Hitting which is true. He puts up a battle at the plate every time he’s up. I’m pretty sure the Buc fans are going to love him he was a great story for a sad team last year.
Jbigz12
Ben Cherington knows how to scout arms. We’ve yet to see him know anything on the offensive side. We’ll see if this works any better than IKF and De La Cruz
Scott Kliesen
New Pirates hitting coach, Matt Hague, has been Horowitz’s hitting coach in Toronto. This should give Pirates hope there’s even more there offensively. Plus this makes room for Bubba Chandler to be in OD rotation next year.
panj341
Pirates should not have included 2 prospects, Ortiz was enough. Signs of desperation or was it because Nutting told Cherington that he is not paying for a free agent first baseman again.
User 3716094111
Ortiz was too much, himself
TJECK109
100% with the cost of pitching in a the FA market.
Just a ridiculous move by BC.
Now he opens his 4th starter spot.
Having Skenes, Keller, Jones and Ortiz was a solid 1-4.
I don’t get how you deal from your big league roster without a proven player coming back or a proven player that to replace what you are dealing if you are trying to build a winner.
User 3716094111
I’m beating the dead pierogi here, but that’s exactly right. Had this been a trade for a comparable player from the offensive side, it would have made sense
Here, you just took from a strength and now will hope for the best
Mendoza Line 215
Panj-Probably both.
Hopefully,like adding Chapman last year,they will use the money saved on first base to get bona fide relievers.
The Pirates need to add some good players if they actually do want to compete for the playoffs this year.
I have no confidence in Shelton though.
YourDreamGM
I blame everyone of you. I was perfectly fine with signing 1 year deals on whoever the rest of mlb baseball didn’t want. Lets get old Santana Winker Canha Pillar. But fans. We need long-term. Haven’t had a 1b since Young. Some we haven’t had a 1b since Stargel. Well they tried to make you happy.
DDRAIG
Spenser is lucky that Cruz is now in CF otherwise he would strain his back reaching for all those high throws at 5′ 10″.
joew
Good pick up for the pirates. Good option at 1b with control… assuming he continues to be around his 2024 performance a fair trade.
Frosted Lemonade
As a Pirates fan, I would rather have the pitchers still in our system and go with Billy Cook at 1B if they weren’t going to spend the money on the position.
User 3716094111
Exactly right
Ortiz looked better than Keller down the stretch but you trade him away. I mean, it’s ridiculous.
TheMan 3
it’s not ridiculous, it’s the Pittsburgh Pirates and what most people expect from them
energel
I really like this trade. Luis Ortiz’s underlying peripherals just scream decline. While Horowitz peripherals juts scream on the track of getting better. I mean, not a great fielder, but horowitz can just flat out hit, and thats what the Pirates need.
C Yards Jeff
I really like this trade news. It’s throwback hot stove action. Sure as heck beats reading about the latest plain vanilla wrapper mega FA deal. The back-n-forth banter is refreshing.
My contribution? The Guards not my Orioles traded some offense for some of Pitts pitching depth. Come on Elias.
El Kabong
C Yards Jeff — They needed rotation help even with Burnes. It now looks like they’ll have the added burden of replacing their ace. What are your 2025 expectations for Grayson Rodriguez? Do you see him as a potential ace? He was inconsistent before the lat injury.
C Yards Jeff
@ElKabong
When GRod pitches, he’s filthy … and in my IMO at a TOR level. But he has a tendency to throw (and to the point of overthrowing). When he gets carried away like this the natural movement of his pitches which he is gifted with can flatten out. Oof.
I think maybe the culprit here is that he can put unnecessary pressure on himself which leads to this overthrowing thing which in addition to messing with ball movement is what’s possibly causing the recurring lat injury issue. Hoping he grows out of all this. He’s young. I say he will. Fingers crossed.
El Kabong
I agree he has that kind of ability. Overthrowing is a problem for many modern pitchers. They don’t want to give up the long ball. Trust your stuff and your defense instead of trying to strike everybody out. If you give up a home run, brush it off and focus on the next batter.
jabgdn
“On base machine” … “can just flat out hit” ..some of the words thrown around would make you think the Pirates are getting the next Rickey Henderson, Frank Thomas or even Roberto Clemente! Maybe Matt Hague can work a miracle and turn Horwitz into one of these guys. Highly unlikely but not impossible.
YourDreamGM
He just like Clemente except without the running and throwing and fielding. He’s Josh Van Meter against LHP though. Actually that’s probably a insult to Josh.
Mendoza Line 215
Josh Van Meter actually predated the emergence of Shohei Ohtani as Josh was a two way player who was one of the Pirates’ better relievers on those horrid teams.
st1300b 2
Hate him already he’s a Ravens fan.
energel
wait. Dont tell me your talking about spencer horowitz?
energel
Sigma Pirates for making this deal. Beta gaurdians for thinking Luis ortiz is “good” Just possibly the Ohio Gaurdians can work their skibidi rizz on Luis Ortiz, charming him and fanum taxing all his bad quirks and perpherals out of his soul.
User 3716094111
Second time you mentioned “bad peripherals”. Maybe you can explain, because offhand it sounds like nonsense
Ortiz was legitimately their second best pitcher over the last couple months of the season. Did you watch the games or is it a case of just looking at some stats that have introduced you to the word “peripherals?”
The guy worked hard and threw strikes. I’ll make the prediction that he’s going to do very well in Cleveland, with a real team behind him
energel
That was a joke comment, but the thing I said about peripherals was intentional. He had low swing and miss numbers, and a 4.59 xFIP that just screams future regression/ back of the rotation pitching. The fact that the Pirates traded a number 5 starter for a a guy who get most of their games at first with productive hitting numbers, its a win for the pirates.
also I hate that some people think of the Pirates as “not a real team” they only have uncertanty in a few of their positions. Oniel Cruz looks great in center, They could have a 1st/LF split for Bryan reynolds, IKF is solid at short, Nicky Bats at 2nd is good especially if he could maybe improve that power itll be great becuase he already has that clutch factor. and their starting rotation might be the best in baseball. there on the brink of playoffs, i can feel it
energel
And also I watched every single Pirates game, didnt miss a single one, even went to Pittsburgh to watch skenes a couple times. I watched the game where Luis ortiz gave up 4 straight home runs against the D-backs.
User 3716094111
Thanks for the explanation
Agree with you that they have the pieces here and just need to build around them
I don’t get the feeling they’re willing to go that route, however. So instead, just stagnate around .500 until it’s time to dump Skenes
You mention Ortiz’s Dbacks game and I concur—-to me at least, his one lone bad start over the last couple months. I’ve heard the lack of K’s argument before and granted, he relies a bit too much on heat but I suspect a change of scenery will not only pump the velocity a bit but also have him working on spin pitches
Still, with Skenes he was most reliable on the staff at the end. I just don’t understand how you dump the guy for a question mark, that’s all
Then again, they’re apparently dangling Keller and Jones at the winter meetings so who knows. I want to believe they’re a “real” team, no matter how much their owner and GM try to convince me otherwise.
Happy Holidays
Mendoza Line 215
Gringo-I wouldn’t believe everything that I read.
They may be shopping Keller because of his inconsistency which evidently will not go away and because of his contract.
Jones is going nowhere.
Felix NAVIDAD tambien.
YourDreamGM
#WinterMeetingsOver Thank the gods. Sober Cherington up and hope he doesn’t make anymore trades.
TheMan 3
if Ben refrains from having his head in the toilet, there probably won’t be anymore trades
YourDreamGM
No idea why bright eyes and goku the wonder kid muted me.
TheMan 3
Bright eyes muted me too but I don’t care and you shouldn’t either Dream
You’ll forget more about baseball than he will ever know