Free agent Michael Lorenzen has primarily been a pitcher in his career but has occasionally dabbled in hitting and playing the outfield. Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports that Lorenzen and his agent, Ryan Hamill of CAA, are pitching him as a two-way player for the upcoming season. However, the idea isn’t really to sell Lorenzen as a viable hitter, but to get around the roster rules that limit how many pitchers a team can have.
Major League Baseball instituted a rule in June of 2022 limiting clubs to 13 pitchers on a 26-man roster. When rosters expand to 28 in September, the pitcher limit goes up to 14. As part of these rules, each player is designated as a pitcher or a hitter or a two-way player. In the case of a two-way player, they don’t count against that pitcher limit. For instance, the Angels were able to carry Shohei Ohtani and 13 other pitchers on their roster during his time with that club, giving them one extra arm compared to all other teams. The Dodgers will be able to do the same in 2025 and beyond, after Ohtani didn’t pitch this year while recovering from Tommy John surgery.
To qualify for two-way status, a player needs to have met certain criteria. They need to have pitched at least 20 innings and have played 20 games as a position player or designated hitter, getting at least three plate appearances in those games, in either the current season or the previous one. The status allows the club to get around the roster limitations, as well as the rules on when a position player can pitch.
The plan from Lorenzen and his agent, as laid out by Rosenthal, is to let Lorenzen get the necessary plate appearances this year in order to qualify for two-way status. Once he has that status, it would be in place for the remainder of 2025 and in 2026 as well.
It’s a creative plan which would theoretically increase Lorenzen’s value. In this day and age, pitcher usage has been shrinking, with starters getting pulled earlier and relievers taking up larger workloads. Having one extra arm would certainly appeal to a club, so it’s understandable with Lorenzen and his reps would give it a try.
The challenge would be in implementation. Lorenzen wasn’t an especially good hitter even when he was doing it regularly. With the Reds from 2015 to 2019, he got between five and 53 plate appearances each year, getting to 145 in total over those five seasons. He hit seven home runs but only walked at a 4.8% rate and struck out 31.7% of the time. His .235/.279/.432 line led to an 84 wRC+, which is not too bad for a pitcher but still subpar. It’s also mostly buoyed by a four-homer burst in 34 plate appearances in 2018. He stepped to the plate 53 times in 2019 but went deep just once and slashed .208/.283/.313 for a wRC+ of 53.
Even getting to something in that vicinity is probably a tall ask. Lorenzen got exactly one plate appearance in both 2020 and 2021, followed by none at all in the past three seasons, so we’re talking about a guy who essentially hasn’t hit at all in five years and is turning 33 years old in January.
But the way the plan is outlined, that doesn’t seem to matter. The idea is for a rebuilding club such as the White Sox or Marlins to run Lorenzen out there, knowing full well he isn’t likely to hit much, but presumably not caring since they’re not really trying to win anyway. Once he has unlocked two-way player status, he can be traded to a contender that would benefit from having another pitcher on the roster.
It’s perhaps worth noting that this plan could theoretically be done with any pitcher, though a theoretical hurler might not be keen on the idea. A random free agent pitcher might not want to embarrass himself by stepping up the plate in those 20 games, and there’s also the risk of suffering an injury on a stray pitch hitting a hand or some kind of strain while running the bases or sliding into a bag. Lorenzen at least has the potential to be somewhat passable in the box and it’s possible he welcomes the challenge of getting back in there.
Lorenzen has been utilized more as a pitcher because his results have been better on the mound, and he would have value even just as a standard hurler. He has a 3.99 earned run average in 854 1/3 innings at this point, working as a starter, reliever or swingman over his career. He has signed one-year deals in each of the past three offseasons, just based on his abilities on the mound. He got $6.8MM from the Angels going into 2022, $8.5MM from the Tigers going into 2023 and $4.5MM from the Rangers last offseason. He just posted a 3.31 ERA this year between the Rangers and Royals and would presumably be able to get another solid one-year pact in the coming weeks or months.
The hope from Lorenzen and his reps seems to be that this unorthodox idea could perhaps get him a bit more money or maybe a second year on his next deal. It’s unclear whether any club would have the appetite for such a strategy, however. In the age of expanded playoffs and the draft lottery, very few clubs are going into the 2025 season with no hope of contending. Even clubs that have been bad in recent seasons like the Angels and Athletics have been aggressively adding to their rosters this winter.
The White Sox just had a record-setting season of futility and are surely going to be bad again in 2025, but intentionally tanking a lineup spot to gain some theoretical marginal boost in trade value might be a bit too egregious for a club that probably has some desire for a less embarrassing season next year. It’d also take some at-bats from younger players the team would like to develop.
Rosenthal scoffs at the idea of the White Sox or Marlins having young players that they want to give big league at-bats to, but that’s oddly dismissive. Surely the Fish would have to weigh a plan like this against trying out various players they hope can become viable major leaguers, such as Kyle Stowers, Griffin Conine, Deyvison De Los Santos and so on. Even if they feel they have DH at-bats to use, they could go the more traditional route of just signing a free agent hitter such as Jesse Winker or Tommy Pham with the idea of trading that player at the deadline.
Time will tell if any club will bite, but one has to tip their cap to Lorenzen and his reps for thinking outside the box.
Now he can demand $700M+
If only this was a thing when Rick Ankiel was playing.
There was. It was called no DH the NL. Except Ankiel did not want to pitch after 2004.
Ankiel got the yips and couldn’t pitch.
At least he has a legacy of some fantastic OF throws. One of my favorite repeat videos.
Yet he could throw someone out from centerfield on a perfect throw. It was so odd.
He’s just gonna ruin it for everyone when they change the rules
I love this idea. I’m not an expert on the Ohtani Rule, is the gist that you can gain two-way status within a particular year after 20 appearances on both sides of the ball? I’d’ve figured you wouldn’t be eligible until the next year.
Yes, it says right in the article you would have it for the rest of that season and the next.
I know mlb made this rule because of him, but is he eligible ? since he did not pitch last year.
Ohtani
Not at the moment, but it won’t be long until Ohtani regains two-way status early next season.
Besides, he still doesn’t take up a spot as a pitcher, since he’s only classified as a hitter right now. So the Dodgers will still be able to carry 13 pitchers aside from Ohtani even before he regains his two-way status.
Ah, never mind that second part. The Dodgers will need to initially designate Ohtani as a pitcher to qualify him to start games (and not just pitch in blowouts or extra innings). As such, the Dodgers won’t be able to put a 14th pitcher on their roster right away next year, but it’s still true that it won’t take Ohtani long to regain his two-way status (barring another injury).
shapiro ” IN ” on this guy ?
That has to be one of the crazier sells for a good but not great player I’ve ever seen. I hope it works out simply because it would be hilarious.
I don’t know why but this article made me think of Bartolo Colon hitting a bomb for the Mets.
Bartolo Colon was a more legitimate hitter than Lorenzen in his best/most lucky season at the plate- which isn’t saying much, haha.
Sir… look up and compare their stats in regards to hitting. Colon had one memorable at-bat, but Lorenzen was/is the better hitter.
I gotta agree. Colon was a horrible hitter. Lorenzen was/is a much better hitter. Colon was entertaining though. I’m sure James Shields will never forget Mr. Colon though.
That is simply not remotely close to true Trillion, as Lorenzon was actually once a hitter coming up before switching to pitching full time… and through 133 AB in the majors he has 7 HR and .710 career OPS at the plate.
In 299 AB, Bartolo had 1 HR and a whopping .199 OPS
Ken Brett – career .262/.291/.406/.698
1526.1 ip 3.96 era
Forgot to add that brother George always said Ken was the better ball player
Great. Now we know who the Red Sox are going to sign next, he can start and hits right handed!
Isn’t baseball magical, kids?!?
When he shows up to spring training he’s gonna be like Glavine and Maddux in that 90s Nike commercial
“Chicks dig the long ball.”
Sounds like Ohtani won’t start out 2025 being a two way player and will have to be counted among the 13 pitchers until he hits for 20 games. So some position player is going to be cut or optioned in late April.
This is not at all true, because he will start the season out hitting before he even pitches. He isn’t expected to be ready to pitch on opening day.
It would be the opposite. Ohtani is considered a batter until he pitches (and then he would be a two-way), so he won’t count towards the pitcher limit at all.
Sure, but if he’s counted as a position player, he can pitch only in certain situations like blowouts. To take regular pitching starts, he’ll have to be counted as a pitcher until he amasses both the pitching innings and batting games (at least as I understand it). That’s the scenario I meant, him taking rotation starts.
Ah, but there are only designation requirements for two-way players. Otherwise, it’s the team’s choice as to designate someone as a pitcher or a hitter. The Dodgers will simply designate Ohtani as a pitcher at the beginning of the season despite him not actually pitching last year.
From there, Ohtani will quickly regain his two-way status. albeit the Dodgers won’t get that extra pitcher on their roster until he does.
The Dodgers should sign Lorenzen. Then after Lorenzen hits for 20 games and Ohtani returns to the mound they can carry 15 pitchers.
so I guess my question is – what is to stop a team in blowouts and such making a pitcher a DH in order to try to get an extra pitcher spot on the roster – or 2
Because in order to reach two-way status, you have to have 20 games where they get at least 3 plate appearances. That would mean you’d probably be subbing in the player you want to get two-way status by like the 4th inning. You can’t just put in a pitcher in the 9th inning as a pinch-hitter/substitue fielder in a 10-2 game 20 times, and then get the extra roster spot.
It’s a real shame that pitchers can’t still be sent to play LF for a batter while a reliever takes care of him.
As far as I know, it’s still legal to do that LF trick, as there are no restrictions on pitchers playing the field. However, you would have to keep him out there for three consecutive batters or until the end of the inning. Maybe it’s worth the risk in certain extreme situations when there are already two outs.
Or throw a position player out to pitch in 20 meaningless games.
But there are rules now to limit when a position player can be called on to pitch in blowouts.
@Brick House That’s the part of this rule that I don’t think is fair. You can’t really get a position player enough appearances to qualify, so unless they do both right from the get go they’re stuck in that role.
Jake Cronenworth is a good example of this. He came up through the minors as a 2 way player but won the starting 2B job when he broke in to the big leagues so he just ended up getting locked into position player status. They probably would have wanted to him to focus on hitting anyways, but I feel like they should have the option.
Cronenworth is who I was thinking of as well. He was their closer at Michigan, and even in the Rays organization he was throwing meaningful innings at AAA on days where he wasn’t playing IF.
Position players can also pitch in extra innings, so it’s not that much of a stretch to get him 20 appearances in one season as long as he’s a good enough pitcher that you actually trust having him pitch in close extra-inning games.
As such, that seems like a decent middle ground where a position player who really deserves two-way status can earn it without too much trouble, without allowing for just any position player who dabbles in pitching who would be just the 13th (or 14th) best pitcher on the team from getting it.
I’m torn on this one yall. On the one hand I don’t think much of it from a baseball perspective and it’s certainly dodgy at best from a roster rules point of view. On the other hand its a hilarious Yolo move that I very much enjoy on a rubbernecking level lol.
If I hope for one thing here it’s that this inspires greinke to try and make a two way comeback lol.
Doesn’t matter for position players, since there’s only a pitcher limit.
It still allows the team to have a 14th pitcher on the roster who would be allowed to pitch in any situation.
I dunno – you probably could if you’re the White Sox…???
He did great with that when he was with the Reds.
Noah Syndagaurd’s agent should pay attention.
Love the “galaxy brain”
Max Fried could get away with this since he can actually hit.
Imagine the furor on Pinstripe Alley when Fried gets drilled by a high-and-tight fastball. They’d be calling for Boone’s. Of course, they call for Boone’s head regardless of what happens.
How valuable is that extra pitcher? I guess that’s the question.
He already tried this for 2 seasons as a Red and it did not work. His pitching got worse and immediately got better when this shenanigan was put to a stop. He also could not hit a beach ball when he got exposed as a pinch hitter (Micheal is an automatic out if you throw any other pitch than a fastball) and appeared to frustrate other outfielders with his over-agressiveness while playing in the field. Michael do us all a favor and just stick to pitching. You are not Ohtani.
Reds – based on reading the actual article, the intent is not to have him hit and pitch consistently for a competitive team. The point is to gain two way player eligibility and then have increased roster flexibility while only pitching.
So for example, he signs with CWS, and gets two way player eligibility and then gets traded to a contender. He is now more valuable because he gives them added roster flexibility.
Correct.
A team will be able to carry 14 pitchers this year AND next year.
Johnny – the eligiblity rule is a little weird to me, because it allows for something like this. It would have made more sense to make them either pitch or hit x amount in a shorter time period (with some grace period for injury) so people can’t game the system like this.
But hey, it’s legal and if it works more power to ya.
It’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off for ’em
On occasion I use this phrase when I am at work or out afterwards, there are only 2 responses:
-blank stare
-ear to ear grin and laugh
Still I continue on….
I don’t understand why he doesn’t just stick with pitching, and market himself as a reliever in the second half since he has been putting up great numbers in the first half until he gasses out.
Too clever by half. Even the dumbest front offices are going to value Lorenzen strictly as a pitcher, and the extra pitcher’s slot won’t mean squat. Clubs can always finagle around the 13-pitcher limit by optioning guys or creating phantom injuries.
But it is a funny note in this offseason’s free agent madness.
Billy Eppler says, “er…”
There’s now a limit to how many times a guy can be optioned in one season, there’s long been a minimum 10 days that an optioned player must stay in the minors (barring a new IL placement on the MLB team), and there’s only so far you can go with phantom injury placements before both the players and the Commissioner’s Office start complaining.
The extra pitcher’s spot is still pretty valuable.
Why not?
So let me get this straight…
AL has had the DH spot since the 70s (?), NL finally gets rid of it, and now suddenly we’ve got pitchers who can hit taking back the DH spot, effectively making it a pitcher’s spot in the lineup again..
I found the same irony back a few years ago when they added universal DH, thus getting rid of pitchers batting in the NL…but at the same time creating the Ohtani rule so a pitcher could hit in the AL…
Ohtani has always been allowed to both pitch and DH, as well as bat for himself in place of the DH whenever he pitches. Any other AL pitcher since 1973 could’ve done the same if his manager felt he was a better hitter than any of his other DH options that day.
The Ohtani Rule just took advantage of his two-way play to allow his teams some extra roster flexibility after having recently created a pitcher limit for the active rosters.
This is so blatant, so transparent, so shameless I’d like to believe it won’t work- but watch him get signed to like 1 year/$10M in this silly, non-sensical market.
@TrillionaireTeamOperator,
Please don’t shout while Arte is on the phone with Lorenzen’s agent.
Trill – Agreed. This goes entirely against MLB’s stated desire to increase offense.
Only 20 games as DH gets you 304 games with an extra pitcher? MLB has jumped the shark.
Lorenzen put up 2.0 and 2.6 bWAR seasons in 2023 and 2024. Someone will give him two years.
I do not know how Lorenzen has aged since he left the Reds. However, when he was with the Reds, he was probably as good of a 5th (or 6th) OF as most teams had. His speed on the bases and baserunning sense was outstanding; and, notwithstanding some of the comments above, he was probably the best defensive outfielder on the roster.
Yes, he struggled to hit breaking stuff but which players do not these days, One thing for certain, if he got a get ahead/ get a strike fastball or a hung breaking ball he knew what to do with it.
How many 5th or 6th OF turn in better than an 84 OPS+ anyway? And if they do can they run the bases, play top drawer defense, and pitch too?
I hear the Red Sox are making inquiries…….
Casual – Cora is probably already drooling at the prospect of having 14 pitchers at his disposal throughout the season.
When he signed with the Tigers they told him he would not be hitting. He pitched well for them as a back end/swing guy and was good last year too.
Silly Michael…MLB only meant this for Ohtani.
This is some real galaxy brain stuff and I’m here for it.
He’d be a better hitter than and first baseman, third baseman or right fielder current on the Angels roster. He’d also be their opening day starting pitcher as sad as all of that is.
Uh. Kikuchi is a better pitcher.
Schanuel is a better hitter.
Adell hit 20 bombs last year, and will be better this year.
Lol, sure thing Schanuel is a .600 ops firstbaseman. Adell can’t hit his body weight. Kikuchi is a number 4 pitcher at best.
Actually a really solid idea. I wouldn’t be surprised if MLB steps in a tweaks the rule to require a certain amount of at bats to qualify as a two way player, but if that amount isn’t super high I think most teams would be willing to use him as a pinch hitter on occasion, or toss him in the outfield for some games to give others a rest
Needs 3 (2023 Kolton Wong-ish) plate appearances in each of 20 games. That’s a lot for any team unless they’re willing to bare their whole rebuilding ass
Just like Ohtani is a DH “but has occasionally dabbled” with pitching…
Thats really a smart move, and Braves really should capitalize on this quick cause we literally never use our bench and we need a #5 type pitcher. The question becomes, what’s stopping every pitcher from doing this? A lot of pitcher hit at one point.
@bravesfan. I don’t see how it makes sense he’s a good 10 million dollar pitcher for the first half. He can still pocket another 20 million for his career if he sticks with it.
Because with the DH in both leagues almost no pitcher hits well enough to justify giving him at least 3 PAs per game for at least 20 games in one season.
As A Jay’s fan this team is awful. One of the worst offensive teams and they traded their only bright spot outside of Vlad. This team needs a closer, 3 bats, and an 4th or 5th starter type. Atkins is a complete failure. Poor farm not much of a pen and no offense.
It’s brilliant.
The problem is that he still counts against the 26 man roster.
So, a team would have 9 starting position players, a backup catcher, HIM, and only 2 other spots on the bench.
Teams would do 12 position players. That’s why there’s a pitcher limit.
I’m sure there’s a lot of room in the lineup for that .282 OBP.
Billy Hamilton got consistent at bats for six years.
If a team thinks he could add value, they’ll give it a shot.
The marginal upgrade in prospect return does not seem worth the complete degradation of a team’s dignity.
Plus the poor guy is stuck on the White Sox or Marlins for half a year. Don’t know if that’s healthy for him.
I think the White Sox already lost all their dignity while setting the new record for team losses last year.
Yeah, I was thinking Marlins or White Sox. Outside the box, maybe the Rays?
But then we still need one of these cheap teams to spend 10 million dollars in hopes of buying 2 or 3 prospects.
This rule probably could have given Micah Owings a longer career
Sounds like some BS Stearns would try to sell Mets fans
I was a three way in my day.
Would be cool if he landed on a competitive team.and could be trusted for a few IP so that a LH reliever could come in to close one inning and Lorenzen could come back out for the next, with presumably a good defensive OF in his place. Kind of like Tony Sipp in 2014 or Orosco and McDowell after the brawl with the Reds in ’86.
Small sample size but Lorenzen has a better OPS against RHP than either Tyrone Taylor or Jose Siri, the probable CF’s for the Mets next year. I think there may be a difficulty to keeping him in hitting, fielding and pitching shape at the same time. A competitive team would have a problem blindly pulling a “real” position player in a blowout and give 3 PA to pitcher posing as a fielder in 20 games. Being in 20 games determined to be blowouts by the third inning is not very likely. Is the Orosco/McDowell 1986 move even legal with the current relief pitcher rules? Unless Lorenzen can get in shape to be a pure platoon position player it seems to be a very small slice of baseball probability for this to work out.
It may be a good experiment for a minor league team. That way the player can get accustomed to the oddball day-to-day training regimen.
@depletion. Some rebuilding team might bite. I believe he played center so he could play on Sundays. I just don’t get the point he was a 2.6 war player last year. he doesn’t need extra versatility or roster manipulation to pique interest. He is a good starting pitcher in the first half has been for the last three years. So wouldn’t it make sense to market yourself as that and a reliever in the second half. You should get 10 million atleast.
Personally I think all of this is dumb. Just allow 26 players regardless of position. The teams can dig their own grave on depth of they choose to over load one side or the other.
Every team should carry a bunch of DHs who can pitch.