Marc Narducci spent 37 years covering all sports for The Philadelphia Inquirer before retiring in July 2021. He covered everything from high school sports to the Phillies winning the World Series and the Eagles winning the Super Bowl. A lifelong southern New Jersey resident, he remains a freelance writer and broadcaster. Once again, Marc reached out to see if MLB Trade Rumors would be interested in publishing his Hall of Fame ballot. I am happy to do it and hope it can be an interesting topic of debate for our readers. Here’s Marc…
It’s always an honor to be published by MLBTradeRumors.com, among the most respected baseball publications around. For those who haven’t read the previous years, just a little housekeeping. I don’t vote for those associated with steroids, which means Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez, don’t receive my vote.
I have also not voted for Carlos Beltran who admittedly was the mastermind of the 2017 Houston Astros sign-stealing scandal, which altered the perception of that World Series winning team. Those actions cost him his job as a manager and for now, this vote. I don’t feel all the Astros should be punished, but as stated before, that’s a story for another day.
I never criticize how a fellow voter votes. That doesn’t mean our votes aren’t subject to criticism, including mine. Each voter has to do what he or she feels is best.
And now, here is this year’s ballot, which includes five names.
The Holdovers
There are three holdovers I voted for last year and again got my vote this year.
There is no question injuries slowed down Utley’s career and many feel he didn’t have the counting stats to get in, but he was a six-time All-Star and only four HOF second basemen have more home runs than Utley’s 259. Those four are Rogers Hornsby (301), Craig Biggio (291), Ryne Sandberg (282) and Joe Morgan (268). I’m big on second basemen who show great power, which is why I voted for Jeff Kent (377 career home runs) when he was on the ballot. Also, we tend to look at excellence, even if it is shorter-term. As mentioned last year, from 2005-2009, Utley’s slash line was .301/.388/535 and he averaged 29.2 home runs, 110. Runs. 101.4 RBI, 151 games and 675 plate appearances. His BWAR during that time was 7.7. Just nine HOF second basemen have a higher career B-War than Utley (64.5).
Utley won a World Series in 2008 with the Philadelphia Phillies and the next year hit five home runs in the 2009 World Series against the Yankees, tying an MLB record with Reggie Jackson in 1977 and George Springer in 2017. He was a career 275/.358/.465 hitter with an 823 OPS and 117 OPS+. Utley also won four Silver Slugger awards. Will it be enough? Last year in his first season on the ballot, Utley received 28.8% of the vote, so he has a long way to go.
This is Wagner’s 10th and final season on the ballot after coming close last year by earning 73.8% of the vote, missing by five votes. Those who don’t feel Wagner is a HOF player point to his low number of appearances and World Series statistics. Both are valid.
Wagner pitched just 903 innings. His postseason production, even though it only consisted of 11 1/3 innings over 14 appearances, was poor to say the least. He had a 10.03 ERA.
The reason for voting for Wagner was his excellence. According to the Baseball Hall of Fame, his career WHIP of 0.998 is the lowest among all retired relievers with at least 700 innings pitched, and his career 2.31 ERA is lowest among retired left-handed pitchers with at least 500 innings pitched in the live ball era. His ERA+ of 187 is second all-time to only Mariano Rivera.
According to HOF expert Jay Jaffe, Wagner’s 11.9 strikeouts per nine innings (minimum of 900 innings pitched) is the best in MLB history. There are now others ahead of him, but they have pitched fewer than 900 innings.
Wagner finished with 422 saves, second highest among left-handed relievers and eighth overall. According to MLB.com, he converted 422 of 476 save opportunities (.887).
He was a seven-time All-Star and played on teams that advanced to the postseason seven times.
Wright falls in the Utley category of not having the counting stats due to injury. This is his second year on the ballot, and he only received 6.2 percent of the vote last year. Still, Wright was a dominant force when healthy. Wright was a seven-time All-Star during a nine-year period from 2005-2013. During that time, his slash line was .302/384/.505 with a 138 OPS+. He averaged 23 home runs, 90 runs and 93 RBI while also winning two Gold Gloves and two Silver Slugger awards. Wright finished in the Top 10 for MVP voting four times. During that nine-year period, he was among the best players not only at his position, but in baseball.
According to the Baseball HOF, Wright is one of our four third basemen in history (along with Hall of Famers George Brett, Chipper Jones and Mike Schmidt) who retired with at least 350 doubles, 200 home runs and 150 stolen bases. He ended with 390 doubles, 242 home runs and 196 stolen bases.
He was a career .296/376/.491 hitter with a 133 OPS+. Only seven HOF third baseman have a higher OPS+ than Wright. Due to injuries, he was never a full-time player past his age 31 season.
The Newcomers
This is one player who is sure to create some debate. Among his biggest selling points were his career wins (251) and winning percentage (.609) in an era where wins aren’t valued the way they used to be. He is tied for 47th all-time in career wins.
Some would use his 3.74 ERA against Sabathia, which is fair. His career ERA+ was 116, solid but not spectacular.
On the positive side, he was the ace for the three teams that he played for (Cleveland, Milwaukee and the NY Yankees) and led all three to the postseason. (Later In his career he wasn’t the best pitcher on the Yankees, but for the first five years in New York, he was the ace).
The lefthander was a six-time all-star and the 2007 Cy Young Award winner with Cleveland. He finished in the top 10 of Cy Young voting four other times. He was a workhorse, having made 30 or more starts 12 times. Sabathia helped lead the Yankees to the 2009 World Series championship during his first year with the club. During that year he was the ALCS MVP, going 2-0 with a 1.13 ERA in two starts against the Los Angeles Angels. In 10 of his 19 seasons he played on playoff teams and has a career 10-7 record and 4.28 ERA in 26 postseason games. Sabathia is one of three left-handers with at least 3,000 strikeouts. He recorded 3,093 strikeouts, which is 18th all-time.
Just as Adrian Beltre was a slam-dunk first-ballot selection last year, so is Ichiro this year. He has the credentials to be a unanimous selection. Probably the best stat is that Ichiro had 200 or more hits and won a Gold Glove in each of his first 10 seasons with Seattle. In 2001 he became the second player to win both the Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player award in the same season. What’s more impressive is that he didn’t make his MLB debut until the age of 27. In those first 10 seasons, he his slash line was .331/.376/.430. Before coming to play with the Seattle Mariners, he had 1,278 hits while playing in Japan. He finished with 3,089 career MLB hits and a .311/.355/.402 slash line. Ichiro won two batting tiles when he hit .350 in 2001 and .372 in 2004. He also stole 509 bases in 626 attempts (83%) in his career and was a 10-time All-Star, all coming in his first 10 seasons. In 86 postseason plate appearances, he hit .346/.400/.436. Mainly a right-fielder, Ichiro played 1,970 career games in right, 322 in center and 117 in left. He also had great durability, playing 150 or more games 13 times and 160 or more on nine occasions.
They should make a poll where we can all vote for our ballot that would be sick
Yea it would be great to see a bunch of HOMERS vote for players not worth just because they played for a fan favorite team. How exciting
You get that NOW. This guy in the story is a writer for the Phillies that is voting for Chase Utley. Now you could make an argument for Utley, I don’t deny that. But it’s hard to make the argument for choosing him over some of the guys left off by this guy.
And picking David Wright, but not Troy Tulowitzki or Dustin Pedroia makes ZERO sense to me.
Hiflew: I agree with Pedie but neither Wright nor Pedie should be in. Both great players but injuries are part of the game. Fred Lynn should be in if you elect Wright or Pedie. Great career but not as deserving as Belle, Evans, Munson and so many others.
I wasn’t arguing that ANY of them should be in. Just pointing out that IF you are voting for one of the trio, how can you exclude the other two?
Tulo, lol.
I can see David wright since he definitely would’ve been HOF without injuries and he had 7 all star appearances
But utley??? He looks like a classic hall of very good player with his high peak for a few years
Giving Wright and Utley credit, but not Felix is judging by different criteria for different players. Felix accomplished the most of the 3 by age 31, but then his arm fell off.
My name means I am biased but even when I watched king Felix I never thought HOF
Of course Felix never saw the postseason but I remember in august and September he would choke an important game or have a bad month when it was playoff push time, I’m not saying he’s the reason why there was a 20 year drought but I never thought he was clutch
The list of players who “would have been hall of famers but for injuries” is very, very long…it can’t be a reason to hand waive away the standards
Tulo was one of the best players in the game for about 5 years when healthy. At the very least the best fantasy player for several years when healthy. Let’s not act like he was a bum or something. He had a stronger resume than Barry Larkin until injuries knocked him out of the game too soon.
Felix has 1 Cy Young (should be 2), a perfect game, an immaculate inning, a 4k inning and a grand slam. His peak was absolutely HoF worthy.
There is no standard for starting pitchers anymore. It used to be wins, but now no one really knows what makes a great starter over the long run. To me, there wasn’t much difference between Sabathia, Buehrle, Felix, Johan Santana, and Tim Hudson. But to the voters, Sabathia looks like a first ballot guy (or at least a high vote total). Buehrle has been hanging around the bottom of the ballot for a few years. Felix looks like he might be in that same boat. Santana and Hudson both failed to get 5%. I just cannot grasp what the voters are looking for now. Really the only main difference I see is one was on the Yankees andthe rest weren’t so they weren’t on TV every other day.
I have two Felix jerseys, but… no. He was heavily used for a decade, throwing 200+ innings every season, and his arm fell off, so there’s an argument for his almost 50 WAR career being good enough…
…except…
one of his co-rookies of 2005 was Justin Verlander. Yeah. I don’t need to say anything more.
And side by side Felix falls into “Hall of Very Good”, not Hall of Fame.
@sad tormented
You must not have paid attention to the beginning of King Felix’s career. He was absolutely HoF-bound before he turned 30. It’s the same way I feel about Soto’s and chances now. It’s not Felix’s fault that he had low run-support and that his teams never sniffed the postseason. You need to look at his cumulative yearly numbers, not just focus at his moments of failure.
@hiflew
In order: WAR, IP, ERA+, K/9, CYA voting, Postseason, HR/9
(It’s a reason why Snell’s high BB-rate doesn’t matter today bc he’s dominant at everything else.)
No longer relevant: Wins/Losses, Complete Games, Shutouts, Walks
Voters today don’t look at the back of 1990-2000’s baseball card stats anymore.
Now I’m a Mariners fan so I don’t take this lightly but I am not completely convinced Felix should get in. And the reason for that is that it wasn’t that his arm fell off at 31, it was that he refused to to make any adjustments once his stuff deteriorated at around age 31. I believe every great pitcher hits that wall at some point but the truly great learn how to pitch in a different way. Felix had no interest in doing that, so if he couldn’t blow it by guys anymore, he decided to just pout, take his ball home and eventually quit on himself and his team. The exact same thing happened to another great pitcher in Arizona named Madison Bumgarner.
Yankee: very sad commentary. Voters should use their eyes first. Narrow the list by what you saw if you’re old enough.
By filling in the box apparently. He explained his reasoning for the players he chose.
Alot of his voting makes little sense, could have also voted for Torri Hunter, Andrew Jones? but votes for Wright and Utley.
Ichiro, Wagner, and Sabathia make sense
IP? Really? So basically if a guy is there long enough, then he is a HOFer? Isn’t that the exact argument people use for why Harold Baines should NOT be a HOFer?
If wins and losses don’t matter because the pitcher cannot control the entire game, then why does postseason matter since a pitcher cannot control whether his team gets into the postseason either?
I stand by my statement that there is no standard.
Can someone please explain the 2004 AL MVP vote to me…
Odd – I agree to a point – if a guy is on the cusp – Wright might be that guy – and was at an age where he just had to show up and he average for a few last years, I think I can live with it. Overall all though, I agree that you can’t just extrapolate the rest of a career because where do you stop.
“His best ability is his availability!” Mike Tomlin (he may or may not have been the first to say it)
Tulo wasn’t a bum. He’s nowhere near a Hall of Famer either.
And in Pedroia’s case his delayed recovery from some of those injuries was self-inflicted.
It would be interesting to see the alternate timeline where Pedroia’s fire didn’t hamstring his health. Health is a skill, particularly as regards recovery from injuries.
Odd – Let’s look at Pedroia vs Munson …..
Pedroia was elite for 11 years and accumulated a 52 WAR (for those that believe WAR matters).
Munson was elite for 9 years and accumulated only 46 WAR.
Obviously Munson was a more tragic situation, but it still doesn’t justify his going into the HOF and then voters calling Pedroia unworthy.
That’s absurd.
Utley 2005-2011: 49.3 bWAR
Soto 2018-2024: 36.4 bWAR
Utley’s 7-year peak dwarfs Soto’s 7 seasons to date, and everyone believes Soto is on a HOF arc. If Soto puts up another five 5-WAR seasons (his 2018 pro-rated, his 2019, 2022, and 2023) he’ll crack the key benchmark of 60, total.
Utley has already done that with a 64.5 bWAR career, and did it with a far better peak than Soto, who is just a two-tool player with his peak capped by the three missing tools.
Ignorant – I saw your post in the Buehler thread. Within the past few weeks I had two people tell me they couldn’t reply to my posts even though I didn’t have them muted. Well now I can’t reply to your posts even though you said I’m not muted, so the glitches on this site seem to be getting worse. Just wanted you to know, hopefully you see this and had a good Christmas!
You seem repeatedly confused by all this.
Felix’s 7-year peak equals that of Juan Soto
Felix 2008-2014 37.4 bWAR
Soto 2018-2014 36.4 bWAR
7 years, 1595 IP, 230 GS, 138 ERA+, but you never thought he was a Hall of Famer. Incredible. Felix was at his best according to Baseball=Reference in High Leverage situations, and at his best with 2 Outs RISP and in Late & Close situations, but you never thought he was clutch. Amazing.
He’s not a HOFer, but that’s because his arm was destroyed by injuries after his age 29 season. He had a clear cut HOF peak for a starter pitching in his era. .
hiflew – Sorry but Wins alone never got pitchers into the HOF, do you see Tommy John (288 wins) or Jamie Moyer (269 wins) in the HOF?
Sabathia was an absolute horse, what he did for Milwaukee in terms of not only Run Prevention but Innings Pitched (including on short rest) was legendary and sets him apart from most other pitchers.
so injury prone players should be in the HOF.
That’s absurd.
Felix also had 2.48 Cy Young shares, 18th all time. Pitched his best in Late & Close, and 2 Out RISP and in High Leverage situations. At 110th all time his peak is notably below pitchers like Scherzer, Kershaw, and Verlander, but those are first ballot guys. They can’t be the bar for every starting pitcher. Felix is more in the tier with Chris Sale and deGrom.
He doesn’t have the bulk of a HOF career, but in a full decade his ERA+ was 129 in 2140 innings. That’s in comparison with a solid HOF career in the 21st century of 3000 innings with an ERA+ of 125 innings. He needed 860 innings with an ERA+ of 115 to meet that standard. Instead he could only put up an ERA+ around 92 in 590 innings.
Close, but he just couldn’t pull it off with his arm in tatters.
There should be way more SPs than any other position in baseball. As a result of the 5 man rotation, there are 5X as many SPs than any other position. Felix was top 5 in his position.
Also, if non- Rivera relievers are going to make than the threshold for SPs shouldn’t be as high. It shouldn’t be easier for Mason Miller to make the HoF by staying as closer, than if he transitions back to being a SP.
Strange comment, as the standards couldn’t be more clear.
The – I don’t think anyone is saying “injury prone” when they discuss an elite player for many years they had a career shortened due to injury.
Kind of moving the goal post here.
I’ll show you what I mean – “so injury prone players should be in HOF. That’s absurd.”.
Clayton Kershaw could be described a “injury prone”.
JackStrawb
You seem repeatedly confused by all this.
Felix’s 7-year peak equals that of ???
=============================
Anyone wanting to vote for Felix probably needs to vote for Guidry as well.
Player A Peak 7 37.9 Career bWAR 49.9 169-136.117 ERA+
Player B Peak 7 36.5 Career bWAR 47.9 170-91 119 ERA+
CY votes
Felix Guidry
1 1 1
2 2 1
3 1
4 1
5 1
6
7 1 2
8 1
Over course it does. It’s almost as if voters noted they played different positions, where catchers are significantly penalized wrt durability.
Oh–sonuvabitch! They DO play different positions.
Fever, F WAR. Anyone who saw Munson knows he’s a HOFer. ROTY, M P and the only Yankee to show up in the 76 WS. In his limited time, he did enough. He was also the most clutch hitter the Yankees had (not Jackson) in their glory days. Compare him to Puckett. I had the pleasure of speaking to Diana where I explained I realized my “hatred” got Thurman was actually respect. She said she was offered to have him on the ballot immediately after he died (like Puckett subsequently was) but she said no as he would have waited the five years like everyone else. It’s too bad because he would have been elected then based on emotions.
I assume you’re wondering why Ichiro didn’t win. I think the main explanation is that fielding was perceived differently back then. Today’s statistics make him look horrible in the field, but back then, Vlad was thought of as a good fielder with low range but a cannon for an arm where people rarely ran on him and he still got double-digit assists. Even today, these kinds of things are hard to put into stats. Vlad had a great year as a hitter and was just unbelievably good in September, carrying Anaheim to the playoffs while Ichiro played on one of the worst teams in the league. I could see the argument for Ichiro or even Manny or Tejada, but it’s supposed to be the Most Valuable Player–If Ichiro was so valuable, why did his team lose 99 games? I haven’t looked it up, but I can’t imagine there are many MVPs who played on teams that lost that many games.
The talk was Felix didn’t work out or take feedback from the coaching staff. That doesn’t say HoF player.
No, on Wright and Utley. The numbers are either there or they are not. If voters considered injuries all the way back to the 1930s, the HOF would be bigger than Cooperstown.
Also, wins should not be minimized as teams take the field to win.
dewey – You’re missing my point. Of course Munson was a HOF-caliber player, but so was Pedroia.
Pedroia should be inducted because he played just as long (actually longer) than Munson, that’s all I’m saying.
The more I look at Utley the more it makes sense that him and Andruw Jones belong in the hall of fame. They both had 7 year peaks of 46.4 and 49.3 WAR that’s insane. Jones is the 11th best CF all time and Utley is the 12th best 2nd baseman. If Craig Biggio is in and Roberto Alamar with similar numbers I don’t see why Utley doesn’t get in. Recently though Jim Edmonds didn’t get in or Kenny Lofton so maybe this is also why Andruw Jones doesn’t get in.
The only issue i have with the “look at this stretch of years” argument is it starts to sound like the NFL, where if you survive 8 years in the league you are basically guaranteed enshrinment to the HoF
I love Pedie Fever but if I’m picking one, it’s Munson. I loved that rivalry era and no one feared me more in a clutch spot than Munson.
Arnold, say hi to Fred for me.
Alas, the plight of the entire conversation: “the numbers are either there or they aren’t”
Which “numbers” is the question. Does a 20 year career of accumulating “numbers” get you in when you were never a dominant player?
Or
Does 7/8 years of being a dominate player but not having 20 years to really pass the “numbers” get you in?
I guess it depends on who you want in and that is my conversation thst I started.
The original set of “numbers” applied to the all time greats and that carried the first 45-50 years of the HOF because those guys of those generations defined which numbers mattered.
I just opened the door up to the likelihood that a Gen Z (for reference) take over of the voting may transition the numbers to more modern thinking.
Neither suggesting it’s right or wrong but as i said above, I accepting of the reality of change.
To each, his on opinion as to whether or not it should.
Chase Utley was one of the dirtiest players in the game. The idea that this guy takes the moral high ground so seriously, and Utley is the first name on his ballot makes no sense. Only a homer could hold this position.
That;s not fair in either case. A team cutting a player isn’t exactly “taking the ball and going home” especially when the Mariners pitched King Felix 190+ innings/year from age 20-30, including a ridiculous 238-249-233=232 stretch from ages 23-26.
Once upon a time that level of usage was normal, and expect.
Tom Seaver from his rookie season in 1967 (23) til his age 34 season in 1979 never threw less than 236 innings and that was in ’79
Steve Carlton has a 13 year stretch where he never threw less than 232 innings even going as high as 346 innings
Jim Palmer threw at least 315 innings three seasons in a row.
Nolan Ryan from age 38 thru 43 threw 200+ innings in 5 of those 6 seasons
From 1988 thru 2006 Greg Maddux only failed to reach 200 innings in a season once (2002) and that year he missed it by two-thirds of an inning
The Mariners didn’t abuse Hernandez, Hernandez just didn’t like staying in shape and conditioning
And Cy Young once pitched 453 innings in a season, so all modern pitchers are lazy!
If you look at the IP leaders this century, excepting Smoltz and Verlander who are both outliers (and Smoltz famously went into the pen for four seasons in his early 30s), many of Felix’ contemporaries who pitched big innings early in their careers (Johan Santana, Dontrelle Willis, Tim Lincecum, Brandon Webb) were done at or around age 30 and a good number more by 35. Heck, even Clayton Kershaw hasn’t pitched 180 IP since 2015,
It’s an interesting discussion for sure.
Morg – A phormer Phillies writer has two phormer Phillies players as carryovers on his ballot … yeah no phavoritism there!
Fever, you see local players every day so I don’t object (not that I would vote for them) but your ballot then should contain more votes as you’ve lowered your personal bar.
Pretty Phunny, Phever Pitch Guy
no it was painfully unfunny unless you’re being sarcastic becker.
Wagner literally played all of 2 years in Philly and is disliked by many of the fanbase.
Dark – Two years is plenty of time to become BFF with a local writer, and fan sentiment has never played into HOF voting.
Try learning how to spell before making a nonsensical comment.
FPG,
I’d think a phormer Phillies writer would vote for Bobby Abreu. I know most don’t think he’s a HOFer, but he’s criminally underrated.
I hate all these writer voters that say they won’t vote for steroid players. They were all doing it so as a player you had to, to level the playing field. A sport that plays 162 games in 180 days or whatever is a crazy season. If you are a player looking for a way to recover and stay on the field then so be it. That’s how I feel about it. PETE ROSE should be in the hall too!
Sorry CK but PED users are why so many got dropped from the list and just don’t get in. They in my view are frauds who got paid at the expense of others. Not everyone used. Also, please don’t bring up greenies from the past. Greenies did nothing but keep you alert like energy shots today. They were provided by team doctors unlike PEDS.
This ^^^
@Fever Pitch et al
From an intrigue point of view I’m grateful for Marc sharing his choices. It creates debate on a quiet boxing day. I can see the argument for Utley and Wagner, and to fair to Wagner he was only in Phillie for about two seasons. I guess you’ll always get some locality bias anyway. And I dispise Utley for his assault on Tejada.
But hey, I guess we’re all in agreement on Ichiro! Have a great Christmas & New Year
@dewey greenies were amphetamine pills more specifically the drug clobenzorex which are sold over the counter in Mexico as a weight loss drug. Clobenzorex metabolizes into dextroamphetamine in your system. Dextroamphetmine is a performance enhancing drug and banned by all world sporting bodies/competition lobbies. It’s acts very similar to meth and is way more powerful than a mere energy drink or Red Bull as you proclaim. If you were ever wondering why guys in their 40s were getting pace-makers implanted into their chests it was because of stimulant abuse.
No, not all
Greenies were used for alertness only and prescribed by doctors openly. Sorry but I can’t compare their usage then to PEDS where they hid their usage because they knew much of was illegal in the U.S.
Greenies let players play more games. Day games after night game in particular accounting for more games played.. i Thust increased performance.. How much? I have no idea, same as i have no idea how much steroids helped or hurt as even pitchers took steroids. Whatever you may think greenies had their impact.
ck420, use his full name, Degenerate Gambler Statutory Rapist Pete Rose.
dewey – Greenies provided energy, like a much more powerful energy drink. And I will always believe it shouldn’t have been banned.
Players use energy shots today. Greenies didn’t increase your strength or improve your vision. Again one was done openly and the other in secrecy. They knew they were cheating (exception being Andro before it was outlawed(.
Players today likely take more of the energy shot and supplement it with B12 shots. They were not available then
Are you suggesting that’s not what these voters do? Lol
I think they’ve done that in the past. That would be really cool. The poll result would be one collective ballot of the commenters of the site.
Chase Utley was a great 2B in his prime. 65WAR I think it’s A-okay to have him on your ballot. Nearly a quarter of voters did last year .
Utley was very good, NOT great. Let’s get that straight! Wright fits in the same category. Neither was great, and that’s what used to be needed to get into the HOF! The watered-down process and voting have unfortunately changed things, and it should NOT! Wagner, Suzuki, and Sabathia should be the votes!
I won’t discuss Beltran, Manny, or ARod in depth here, but they have better cases than Utley and Wright. IMO!
I suggest you take a look at Utley’s prime. From age 25-31 he put up 45 WAR at 2B. That is great production from a 2B.
That’s not longevity, and one WAR stated does NOT work in this instance. Utley was very good but definitely NOT great and NOT HOF worthy! 6 years is NOT a career, Ragnar. I suggest you don’t cherry pick!
Wrong.
Actually that might make it harder than you think to get 75% of all ballots.
My ballot would just have Ichiro. I am open to an asterisk wing for steroid users like AROD and Manny, but I lose no sleep if there is not. My only defense for the steroid users is that many owners, general managers and managers must have known what was going on. Thank you Jose Canseco for exposing baseball’s dirty little secret to the public.
BARRY BONDS NEEDS TO BE IN THE HALL!
Anymore, this is the Hall of All-Stars, not the Hall of Fame. Only the best of the best career players should get in. We are now in an age where people are only judging 4-5 years of a player’s career. Before long, this will be the watered down Hall of Fame.
Albert – I’m an old guy so I can relate to your stance. That said, I think it’s fair that like most things in life, the HOF is evolving or changing with the times as they say. So many older generations won’t like the new ways of many things. Without saying I agree with it or like it, I can accept that this isn’t your dad’s HOF anymore.
Nothing stays the same if it wants to remain relevant.
BS! Tell me that since 1905 the game of baseball has not evolved, players played hard, adapted and across decades excelled to highest standards to be Great. The HOF measured all with stats & contributions to get Only the best into HOF. Injuries, drugs, or being very good etc NOT enough.
Long – Good post and I agree with your overall viewpoint, but if the HOF is changing their induction requirements then they need to go back and induct guys who would have gotten in under the new requirements.
Yankee – first, it isn’t the game evolving that I said and well, the HOF hasn’t around since 1905 if you want to check that out. It’s the evolution of the voter – this “younger generation” or even the folks buying tickets to visit thst I was referring to more than “the game”. That said, the game has evolved and that suggests standards for voting must also evolve. No longer will a SP get to 300 wins for example. That can’t be a deciding factor anymore – see my point.
Second, I didn’t mention drugs.
Third – “very good” isn’t even the point. A player that is elite for 7-9 years isn’t “very good”. Say, a top 10 MVP guy for 7-9 years. That guys is elite in a window.
I’ll throw out Andruw Jones – he has the “counting stats” due to longevity and well, was a “very good” player for a number of years. However, he was only elite (compared to his peers) for 1 year, maybe 2 of his 17 years – based on MVP votes.
Do you let him in because of voting standards from 50’s – 80’s?
Fever – I dont really think that is the case because they played when they played and were subject to the viewpoints of their day. That said, I won’t complain if 5-10 guys that were identified as “almost made it” were analyzed under 2000’s viewpoints and enshrined.
Today’s players are playing under different criteria so, fair to not apply old school criteria to them – see the 300 W’s for SP or innings – 300 / year was expected back in the day and now 200 is a “wow” moment. Some similar batting stats can be raised. See how Arreaz is treated on this site b cause he only hits singles – even though he is winning batting titles!
@Longtimecoming A strong comment fell apart at the end. It directly implies you think the pre-sabermetric era writers’ MVP votes are the gold standard.
Ewwww.
Andruw compiled 22.7 bWAR in just 3 years and only got an 8th place MVP vote in one of those seasons. If that’s your standard, it’s evidently absurd.
Jack, I made no such implication. If anything, it was contrary to how you apparently interpreted. If you look at my original post for context, I’m saying I’m ok with the new generation voters applying a different standard from the 50’s – 80’s.
My last point was that Arreaz would have been deemed a “prolific hitter” and today, “just a singles hitter”.
FanGraphs has a link where you can fill out a ballot:
fangraphs.com/tools/hall-of-fame-crowdsource-ballo…
Andruw Jones, K-Rod, and Abreu are some other acceptable ones. But not on this ballot, apparently.
Given that he is a Philadelphia-based writer, I would love him to add a section as to why he felt Abreu (any any other Phillies on the ballot) were lacking. Abreu is on the fence for me, so the fact that a local writer doesn’t support him is a significant item.
Yep kind of weird. At no point when he was playing did I think he was an all time great but he has the WAR and an impressive stat line.
No shame in it. It only means that at that point you didn’t understand how value is created on the diamond.
Abreu was steady if unspectacular. He was sort of the NL Garrett Anderson in that you pretty much knew what you were going to get year-in-and-year-out
Abreu would be in the top 10% of the Hall of Very Good for me. But not a HOFer
Abreu was the Al Oliver of his generation. Solid player with enviable career numbers, but probably the best player on his own team only one or two seasons?
Al Oliver is a great comp.
I would love to see K-rod get more traction, the saves record and the ‘02 World Series feels like HOF even though the end of his career got uglyish
When jones and abreu played no one thought of them as all time greats
You must not have watched Jones play. He revolutionized defense in center. He was so good that he played super shallow and picked off many singles in front of him, but was fast enough to get to balls at the wall. He also had the power to hit 20-30 HRs every year, and is one of under 2 dozen guys with 50 in a season. Add to that his speed, and he definitely should be at least mentioned as an all-time great center fielder, if not Hall of Fame worthy.
Jones was a fine player, but he didn’t ‘revolutionize defense in center’… Willie Mays did just what you described just fine in in the 50s and 60s.
Also, Jones’ MLB career was pretty much done at 30 (his high in his last five years was 107G), that’s simply not enough time at the top of the game.
Abreu made 2 all star games and hit less than 300 home runs lol.
Rickey should be a platinum level Hall of Famer.
He set a new level so there should be an elite elevation for a player such as him.
As if there ever was another such as him
wiffle: I don’t know. Ichiro’s numbers look pretty amazing. He could do it all, offensively and defensively.
Willie Mays blows Rickey out of the water.
If you could cut Rickey in half and get two HOFers (Bill James) you could cut Willie into thirds and get three HOFers.
Willie Mays is one of the two players in the classic argument of who was the greatest player of all time – and the other player is not Ricky. That’s true for a lot of amazing ballplayers, however. Not being Willie doesn’t mean that Ricky wasn’t a truly great player. His accomplishments put him in a very select group. If some folks want to label that elite production as platinum, go for it. I don’t think that takes anything away from Willie Mays.
Agreed, but that’s not what the OP said—which is what I was responding to.
You should lose all credibility for not having Andruw Jones on your ballot and the fact he’s not already in is criminal perhaps the best defensive outfielder of all-time and has 430 plus home runs and is the youngest player to hit a Home run in the world series. And from what I’m hearing Andruw will fall short again this year and probably will have to wait for the veterans committee to actually give him the credit he deserves. And yet I’m the one they call Butt-Head smh
Facts. Another wasted ballot.
Jones definitely should be in. He’s the best defensive center fielder I’ve ever seen.
I don’t know what’s keeping him out other than when he started to decline, it was quick and brutal.
I don’t know how anyone can justify Jones being in, but Jim Edmonds not being in. Neither topped 2000 hits. Both were equally great in the field. Jones had a higher peak, but also fell off a LOT earlier than Edmonds. If Jones had even been an average player after age 30, he would already be in, but he fell off a cliff. To me, that is not Hall of Fame worthy.
Exactly hiflew if jones was still a good player for a few more years then he’d be on my ballot
@hiflew 11 year peaks, WAR:
Andruw 60.1
Edmonds 56.1
Edmonds was worth very little outside that peak.
It’s easy to see why someone, especially a peak voter, would put the cutoff south of Andruw and north of Edmonds.
You say that Edmonds was worth very little outside that peak, but Jones was actually negative outside that peak. That was my point. His drastic drop off after the PED 90s, should raise some red flags. But people don’t seem to want to associate the wholesome Atlanta Braves with those things because they seemed too nice I guess.
I am not trying to start an argument nor am I making accusations, only paraphrasing what I read, albeit only a few sources several years ago. I also have never seen a HoF voter mention it just some writers/bloggers and again it’s has been a few years.
Some raised suspicions as to Jones’ fall off. He slipped slightly in 2007, at age 30, then fell off a cliff. Some found it funny that the Mitchell report was 2006.
Now, testing had started in 05 but it was so easy to beat compared to now, but the Mitchell investigation seemed to rattle a few and indicate tougher things to come.
Again, just stating only a few things I read some years back and is I read it and some speculated maybe some writers read it/heard it as well.
Cat: Your post needs a de-tangler.
ok…a few writers/blogs I read a few years ago said they thought the reason AJ was not getting votes was ped suspicion.
Easily beatable testing started in 2005. 5.6 war
Mitchell investigation in 2006 rattled some. 3.0 war
He started to nose dive fairly young. Combined war over the next 5 years 0.3
Sorry if that was hard to understand (for some). Next time I’ll include charts and cartoons.
He got fat.
@Cat
Yes, cartoons please. There aren’t enough of those in the comment sections.
I’ll work on it A’sfan
If you look at Andruw Jones and Mike Trout’s career trajectories from age 19 to age 29 the parallels are absolutely there and no one would argue against Trout being a Hall of Famer. Both however, hit brick walls after 30. Trout has been plagued by injuries and Jones got what was considered at the time to be a “big money” free agent contract and cratered upon arrival in Los Angeles. Jones has the numbers just in his Braves career alone, which probably would have included an MVP or two if not for having the best years of his career in the same league as Barry Bonds and Albert Pujols
Rsox, Jones was not close to Trout.
WAR – Jones had 20 less
OPS+ – Jones was a 116. Trout 176
As far as the HOF goes he has a shot there.
Jones HOF Number Comparison
Center Field (11th):
62.7 career WAR | 46.4 7yr-peak WAR | 4.6 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.5 career WAR | 44.7 7yr-peak WAR | 5.4 WAR/162
Jones needed 3 more years putting up at least passable performance to be a show in. He may still get in just on how great his defense was.
I mention it every time Andruw Jones’ name comes up. Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine all have credited Jones for their own illustrious careers bc they weren’t afraid to give up flyballs with Jones behind them on defense.
Is “giving up fly balls” something a pitcher can really control though? Especially the slippery slope where a fly ball becomes a home run. I would think that is a line you don’t really want to dance around. You go for grounders and weak contact (and strikeouts depending on how long the team needs you to go that day.)
If anybody could just give up just fly balls, it would be Greg Maddux.
Jones played a position that unfortunately for him had some exceptional HOF players at that position. The average HOF CF had a 71.5 WAR. Jones had 62.7. While Jones had a high enough 7 year peak, his body of work over a career was found lacking by voters, 38.4% of which did not vote for him last year.
To me, the way Jones’ production fell off a cliff after age 30 is the reason he is not in already. He went from 3.0 WAR directly into negative WAR and never rebounded to even MLB average. It wasn’t just his offense either. He fell from a 16 DRS in CF in 2007 to a -6 DRS in one year. He never again played CF regularly after 2008.
This year is #8 on the ballot for Jones, so he still has a shot even if he misses this year. He just needs to continue to see growth in the number that vote for him.
Think about this – playing CF Willie Mays had 12 GG, Jones had 10. Sometimes the eye test is all that matters.
Think about this, almost all the time the eye test is not all that matters. In fact, very seldom does it tell the whole story.
Eh, Andruw was done at 30. He put up enough value in his first 11 years to warrant a HOF vote, but it’s easy to see why ordinary voters can’t see it. 119 OPS+ isn’t much for a HOFer.
24.4 defensive WAR is a ton, and you have to believe it’s accurate to within 10% to believe Andruw makes the 60 bWAR cutoff.
“Andruw was done at 30′. I have wondered at times (nothing to base it on…just me wondering) if he was 30 and not older.
I don’t recall any instances of false birth certificates or switching them with a relative in Curacao, but I wonder?
Dustin Pedroia should not be forgotten
His brother surely won’t be forgotten by his victims, and Dustin most likely for helping cover it up with his money.
and he won’t in Boston. The rest of the country remembering him is debatable and why he probably won’t get in. If you are not a die hard baseball fan he does not jump up to the top of the list of second basemen and that is a problem for him. Hall of very good sure. Hall of fame that will be left to hose with votes.
Don’t think you can take Pedroia while Grich and Whitaker are not members. Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, and that level of 45-52 WAR scrappy 2Bs need to be left for whatever they call the Veterans Committee these days.
Tulowitzki, Zobrist, etc. are strictly Hall of the Very Good.
Whitaker not being in is insane, especially since Trammell is in. Whitaker will be eligible next winter for voting for the Class of 2026 ballot for the Contemporary Baseball Era, Players edition (last year was Contemporary Baseball, Managers Executives, and Umpires). Here’s the definitions from the BBHOF:
The Contemporary Baseball Era, consisting of the period from 1980 to present day.
The Classic Baseball Era, consisting of the period prior to 1980 and including Negro Leagues and pre-Negro Leagues stars.
The Contemporary Baseball Era will split into two separate ballots – one ballot to consider only players who made their greatest impact on the game since 1980, and another composite ballot consisting of managers, executives and umpires whose greatest contributions to the game have come since 1980.
Contemporary Baseball Era/Player Ballot: December of 2025 for inclusion in the Class of 2026
Contemporary Baseball Era/Managers-Executives-Umpires Ballot: December of 2026 for inclusion in the Class of 2027
Classic Baseball Era: December of 2026 for inclusion in the Class of 2028
baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/election-rules/era-c…
Once Whitaker and Grich are in, it will be time to reevaluate middle infielders.
Utley and CC, the Hall of Very Good perhaps.
CC was a bonafide #1 ACE.
He lost his gas towards the end, and reinvented himself by being crafty.
He has the complied stats, he is the complete package as a HOF’er.
He should be 1st ballot.
My first thought of CC Sabathia is when he was traded from the Indians to the Brewers. I believe he pitched several games on 3 days rest. He was fabulous and helped get the Brewers into the playoffs. He was definitely the ACE and a workhorse for those teams.
CC Sabathia was never a crafty pitcher. He was big and powerful and didn’t need gimmicks.
His last 2-3 seasons saw a 3-4 mph dip in his average fastball, and a higher reliance on his excellent off speed offerings.
=
Crafty.
Why do people believe Fame and Very Good are on the same scale?
Not too long ago, the line was redrawn. Jim Rice, Jack Morris., guys like that. Very good players, but hall worthy? I don’t see it.
@BaseballBrian I think you missed my point. It is not about the line, it is about the fact that Fame and Very Good have nothing to do with each other, The Hall of Very Good would only make sense if the other was called the Hall of Excellent. The step down from Hall of Fame should be Hall of Noteworthy.
@hiflew Except it’s a “Hall of Fame” in name, only.
It is in practice a Hall of Excellence.
@baseball Brian
One of the qualifiers for being in the Hall is being the dominant player of their time. Regardless of WAR, Jack Morris was The Starting pitcher of his time. He led Detroit, Toronto and Minnesota to the playoffs. His entry did not lower the bar.
Jack Morris. Game 7 1991 WS. Competitor extraordinaire. Agree. “The Starting pitcher of his time”. Wish he was Oriole back then.
Their semantic skills are not very fame.
If Chase Utley or David Wright should be in then so should Don Mattingly. Mattingly at his peak was better than both of them. His career and performance was also cut short by injuries.
Wright and Mattingly both had potential Hall of Fame careers cut short by back injuries. A good case can be made for both of them to make it. Wagner absolutely deserves to be elected
Plus the fact Wagner was a right hander who broke his right arm a couple of times and had to learn to pitch left handed. Just a little extra information to his pitching career/story.
But then everybody who has a better peak should also be in. If you take Wright, you have to take Jones and Abreu. Can’t penalize them for being healthier than Wright.
Jones and abreu never got hurt…
Can we put Moncada in now? His one healthy season was excellent. He shouldn’t be punished because he spent the next decade on the IL.
I don’t see anyone that would vote D Wright but not D Murphy. He was a top 3 hitter in the 1980s.
Mattingly would get my vote. At his peak he was the best player in the game. I prefer someone who was truly great over a player that was good/very good over a long time, but never really a top player.
@SFGRab That reads like a bad joke. Mattingly’s peak lasted all of four seasons. Rickey’s peak lasted 14 seasons and was four times as valuable as Mattingly’s
Subtract Mattingly’s career from Rickey’s and you still have a HOFer.
If Thurman Munson played 10 years or longer prior, he would be a HOFer.
@Arthur Gerry You’re being ridiculous.
Mattingly, best 7 consecutive years = 32.8 bWAR
Utley, best 7 consecutive years = 49.3 bWAR
Utley’s peak cr*ps on Mattingly’s and kicks it down a sewer drain.
I am 100% on board with Ichiro and CC.
Both should be 1st ballot HOF’ers IMO.
I am not on board with Wright and Utely, for the simple reason that Don Mattingly was better than both of them, and did not get in.
Maybe they get in through the ERA Committee, but I don’t think they earned the front door.
Wagner is deserving IMO, he was the 2nd best Closer of his era, with the best Closer ever being in his era too.
Wagner was the best lefty closer ever imo and did it so consistently for so long and still had plenty left when he retired in 2010 to raise his kids
Poor Norm Charleton, gets no respect.
Who are “they” and what malady affects our ballot?
What a waste of a ballot. You should have your rights revoked.
There is nothing stopping you from going out and working a team’s beat for 10 years to get your own ballot so you can correct all of these perceived wrongs.
My guy, people who haven’t wrote a sports column in decades get a ballot. The bar for entry is much lower than you think.
“wrote a sports column”
Unfortunately people care more about his opinion than they care about yours.
*Fortunately.
There. Fixed.
Any nard who can’t be bothered to vote for 10 people should have their vote revoked
There isn’t 10 worthy names on that list. Unless they’re going to make a separate hall for genuinely great players.
Utley and Wright have no business being on ballot over Andruw Jones
fathead: Utley and Wright have no business being on the ballot period.
Beltran isn’t on the ballot as a manager or coach. He’s on there as a player and his stats say he should be in the Hall. Between he and Andruw Jones not getting a vote from you is horrible.
Beltran cheated as a player
Doesn’t that mean CC is just as guilty as Beltran didn’t magically figure out how to be the mastermind in the off season. He played with CC prior to coming to Houston.
This is the worst mental gymnastics I’ve seen someone do in my life.
If Utley and wright in proves it is who writers like and what team they played for LOL.
Of course. That’s the name of the game.
Really poor ballot. Voting for David Wright but not Jimmy Rollinsvir Andrew Jones means you should lose your vote.
Hall of fame ballots are pure opinion backed by cherry picked stats. Fair? No, but it is what it is.
It is ok to want a small Hall and not use all ten votes. It is also ok to burn a vote on someone marginal who you covered. But once you do those things there needs to be consistency.
On this voter’s ballot, you can’t take David Wright for peak and not take Bobby Abreu or Andrew Jones. The slots are there. It’s either all three or none of the three.
Years ago, I played golf with a high school umpire from Norfolk, Va area. He recounted a game where the leadoff hitter for this team was a pipsqueak, 14 yr. old freshman who couldn’t have weighed 120 lbs. This was a varsity game. The ump thought what is this little kid doing batting lead off? The little shrimp turned on the 1st pitch and hit a 320 ft HR. It was David Wright.
And then everybody clapped.
Hank, it’s Christmas, try to not be so miserable for a few hours.
The guy told a great story. Only person being miserable is you smh
So Utley can intentionally break guy’s legs but you’ll find every excuse in the book to not vote for Beltran.
“I know you are but what am I?”
Yikes, I didn’t realize I was engaging with such a skilled master of rhetoric.
You really shouldn’t have a vote, what a terriable ballot. I like David Wright, but you loose credibility when you put him on your ballot.
If a relief pitcher can be unanimous Ichiro should be the first position player to be unanimous…
There are a handful of players who career was cut short by injuries that should be considered for the HOF because they were one of the best if not the best in their position for around 10 years. David Wright falls in this category now, but the veteran committee (or whatever it is called now) needs to look back at players like Mattingly and others that fall into this same category who were left out previously. Sandy Koufax is the model for this, best for around 10 years but injuries cut his career short, but was elected to the HOF.
because Koufax was one of the best ever. Not very good.Love Donny Ballgame but he , like CC is not worthy.
Hey Marc, thanks for the insight. Liked your take on the steroid guys and Beltran.
Curious. Where do you draw the line in regards to performance integrity? For instance, Gaylord Perry admits to throwing a spitter at least for part of his career (even writes a book about it mid career) and he gets in to the HOF. Did you vote for him?
I feel strongly there are already ped users in hall. Upper tier ones popped greenies like candy.
I also feel any reporter that uses the if you did them I’m not voting for you soap box that was a reporter during that period should have their vote stripped.
Wasn’t a problem when it was going on because they gave you stories. Only an issue now because a decent part of fan base as an issue with it.
The high majority of that era was on something and a large chunk from say 60s on were doing stuff that would get dinged today. Get over it. Vote for the best players of the era. Heck there are deadball pitchers who look amazing that aren’t in hall because amazing now was pedestrian then.
I have no problem with the PED users being enshrined. The game’s powers-that-be were okay with it when it was happening.
Selig is in the HOF. How hypocritical is baseball?
Not a big follower of HOF voting/inductions. That said; I am okay with human beings deciding who gets in. It’s not all about stats. IE there’s subjectivity mixed in with the objectivity. Cool.
All said; the HOF is not affiliated with MLB. Who’s stopping someone from starting a competing greatest player’s “club” based on stats alone?
MLB and the MLBPA. While the HOF is not owned and operated by MLB, MLB and the MLBPA allowing them to use player name, images, and likeness as well as donating memorabilia is what makes it possible.
Isn’t King Felix on the ballot this year?
He is and, considering how the writer justified voting for Utley and Wright, I don’t know why he didn’t also vote for Hernandez.
The comments here are absolutely classic and hilarious. Thank you ! OBTW, don’t hurt your delicate fingertips, keyboard warriors.
The fact that you were triggered enough to write this and insult the “keyboard warriors” for fair criticism projects how delicate you actually are.
I love how we’ve gotten to a point where it’s not just “I disagree with your vote” but now “your voting privileges should be revoked.”
Yeah and it’s not limited to the baseball HoF
You know what would make the HOF fun? For everyone you vote for you have to supply the committee with a player who is already in to be removed. The committee then takes all the ” nominated for removal” names for a vote. the writers have to pick 2.off the list Top vote getter gets bounced – in case of a tie all those who tied are resubmitted for revote until 1 loser is determined. Every year 1 member will be scrubbed from the HOF….talk radio would love it
Two 1B enter! One 1B leaves! Two 1B enter! One 1B leaves!!
There are plenty in the hall that really have no place in hall. But there will come a time where that isn’t the case. Nothing wrong with big hall and celebrating history. Just need to avoid guys that wouldn’t even be the top tier of the hall of good.
Than change the name.
It’s not called the hall of great either. Fame does not necessarily equate to greatness.
Of course it does. You’re mistaking in for the Hall of Infamy or the Hall of Notoriety.
It’s with good reason that every synonym dictionary uses “greatness” as a synonym for “fame.”
riffraff — Why would you want to take someone’s honor away from them? Jealousy? Spitefulness? Low self-esteem? Which is it?
Talk radio. LOL.
Post was meant in jest and not to be taken seriously , a bit of levity. Now I have answered your question perhaps you could answer mine..why do you feel the need to personally attack someone on a message board like that? Just the way you are? Felt like being a keyboard tough guy? ( that’s kind of how it comes off btw) Didn’t have a great holiday and are cranky?Would have expected more from someone with a cartoon themed user ID ( we have that in common).
Did he vote for David Ortiz?
If he did then he’s a hypocrite on the whole “ I don’t vote for PED guys” argument.
Ortiz’ name was cleared. He never tested positive.
He was in the Mitchell report….Jose said he used. I guess both are wrong?
He was not named in the Mitchell Report. His name was leaked from an anonymous source to the NYT as having tested positive on a survey test done in 2003, before MLB was testing. At least ten of the 103 “positive” tests were confirmed by MLB to be false positives, and Manfred flatly stated that Ortiz never tested positive.
I don’t know of Canseco was telling the truth. He’s not exactly a credible source. But even if he was, it still remains the case that Ortiz did not test positive and his name was cleared.
Just looking at the fact that Ortiz got better after testing was instituted should be enough to clear him.
You are right. The Commissioner said that Ortiz’s test was a false positive. He never tested positive, even in the survey test.
I’ll acknowledge Utley has the edge over Pedroia, but they’re close enough that it warrants making an argument for including one but not the other.
Are either better than Whitaker (not in) or Grich (not in)? If the Era Committees vote those two guys in, then we can come back to Pedroia.
I don’t think Pedroia belongs in the hall (I do think Machado belongs in baseball purgatory for what he did, though).
I’m just saying if the writer is voting for Utley, he ought to explain why he’s not voting for Pedroia.
They’re not remotely close. Jesus.
I like his selections and ommissions for the most part. Some of these guys even being on the ballot is an embarrassment. Hanley Ramirez??? Torii Hunter??? Good players but not even close to HoF worthy.
Except Torii Hunter’s career WAR is greater than David Wright. If Hunter doesn’t even deserve to be on the ballot then Wright doesn’t deserved to be getting votes.
Wright’s peak was way, way higher than Hunter’s was. Wright basically didn’t play past the age of 31. That said, I would vote for Wright either.
Candidates qualify for the ballot based primarily on service time. There is a committee that screens out the bottom of the barrel, but almost anyone who plays 10+ years makes the ballot.
Torii Hunter is terribly underrated. If so many believe Andruw Jones should be a lock, than Hunter should be in consideration at the very least.
This article really makes me wonder why the actual HoF criteria are never even mentioned in discussions who should be in the Hall. A player’s performance is only one of several factors to be considered, at least according to the criteria. Do the sportswriters who vote not know these other criteria, or do they simply ignore them?
Our culture has elevated quantifiable merit above other criteria, and that’s bled over into HOF voting. The pressure on voters is to support their votes with statistical interpretation because it creates a facade of objectivity.
Yet, voters still exclude candidates on the grounds of perceived character flaws, such as steroid use or, in Beltran’s case, illegal sign stealing. So the qualitative clauses of the HOF rules are still relevant.
I get a completely different impression in reading this piece, and none of the above explains why the actual criteria are never mentioned. It’s somewhat understandable when fans don’t know them or find them relevant, but honestly a little shocking when someone who actually votes doesn’t think they are worth mentioning. I guess that’s why Fernando Valenzuela never made it into the Hall.
Yeah it’s just a “facade” of objectivity.
I guess. The criteria aren’t quantitative, but that doesn’t make them subjective either. Voters are supposed to consider the player’s impact on the sport and on the teams on which he played. By an objective reading of the meaning of these terms, Valenzuela should have been a shoe-in, but he never got close to making it because he hung onto the game beyond his ability to perform. To the bean-counters it looks like he had a mediocre career, totally wiping out the memory of his impact on baseball and particularly on LA baseball. So for this fan, the HoF has turned into something of a joke, but not because it doesn’t use WAR or some such statistical nonsense to decide who should be admitted, but because the voters seemingly aren’t considering the actual criteria at all. And neither do most fans.
The player has to be ‘nice to them’ or have big numbers….that’s the criteria.
If David Wright is a HOFer, than Evan Longoria is a hall of famer. I don’t think either to be true.
Tom the ray fan,
David Wright – Career .867 OPS.
7x All Star
Longoria – ..802
3x All Star
Ridiculous.
Longoria 13.4 bdWAR
Wright 0.3 bdWAR
It’s almost as if you left something out. Wright’s decline phase was also abbreviated because he was out of the game so quickly, whereas Longo had six seasons as a useful player after he was a star.
Wright had the luxury of playing NY, Longoria was stuck in TB his prime years. If he played in a bigger market he would’ve had a couple more ASG to his name if you want to make that argument.
Do these ‘voters’ feel that they have to vote? I’m 74 years old and have seen the Hall of Fame become the Hall of ‘Just Pretty Good’. Voters today seem to feel that A LOT of the players they have seen in THEIR lifetime are worthy of being ranked with Cobb, Ruth, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Williams, C. Young, etc. Seeing a plaque for Barnes (and Utley?) kind of cheapens the honoring of contributions of the super stars, like those I mentioned.
Sad to see Felix on there. If he plays for any other team, he probably gets the career accomplishments that get him in (or at least a lot closer).
I don’t understand why the ballots go to writers instead of former players, coaches, or executives.
This particular ballot goes to the BBWAA, but there are other ballots that former players, coaches, and executives are involved in.
Or fans
Nay to fans. They would just vote for their favorites.
I thought that they at least gave the players in hall a vote.
Ichiro is really the only borderline HOF on the list. The writers are over inflation the importance of many of these players.
I girl isn’t “borderline,” he’s a no-doubt HOF. The rest are arguable, and I’d vote “no” except maybe for Sabathia.
@bcjd
For a bit over half his career, he was above league average but for the other half, he was well below average. He finished with a 104 wRC+, which puts his slightly above league average but not by a lot. He compiled about 60 WAR but the average WAR for a RF in the HOF is about 70. I’d say the only thing going for him is that he had over 3,000 hits.
His dWAR wasn’t even that impressive, being tied for 623rd with 5.4. He just average to below average.
Now, you can say, well, if he had played in the MLB his whole career, he’d probably have great stats, and that’s quite possible, but we haven’t yet integrated the NPB into MLB data yet, so until we do that, we should be evaluating him based on what he did in the MLB.
Old York — You are relying on stats to make your case. That’s fine, but stats aren’t the only reason someone might be enshrined. Ichiro was a groundbreaker whose importance transcends mere numbers. There isn’t just one way to get in, nor should there be.
His first 10 MLB seasons were enough to put him in the HOF. The seasons after that helped him compile stats but also brought down his advanced stats. He had 200+ hits in each of his first 10 seasons and led the majors in 7 of those seasons. He won a gold glove in each of those 10 seasons. He never hit under .300 in any of those seasons. He stole almost 400 bases. He also won an MVP and ROY. He’s not remotely borderline as a HOF.
@El Kabong
I respect your point about Ichiro being a trailblazer, but being a ‘groundbreaker’ or a cultural icon is not the primary criterion for the Hall of Fame. It’s about exceptional performance on the field. The Hall of Fame isn’t the ‘Hall of Transcendence’; it’s the ‘Hall of Excellence in Baseball.’
Statistically, Ichiro’s case is weaker than perceived when you dive into advanced metrics. His career wRC+ of 104 means he was only slightly above league average as a hitter. Yes, his first 10 years were phenomenal, but the latter half of his career dragged his overall production down. Let’s also not forget that his OPS (.757) is the lowest among all Hall of Fame right fielders, far below the average of .878 for the position. If cultural impact were the sole factor, then players like Hideo Nomo might also have a case, but that isn’t how HOF voting should work.
@MC Tim C
You’re absolutely right that Ichiro’s first 10 seasons were his peak, but Hall of Fame inductees are judged on their entire career, not just a decade of excellence. His career WAR of 60 falls short of the average Hall of Fame right fielder (70 WAR). Even if we isolate his peak, Ichiro’s 7-year peak WAR (43.1) is respectable but pales compared to other Hall of Fame right fielders like Frank Robinson (58.1) or Roberto Clemente (50.9).
Yes, he won an MVP, but that was in 2001 when he also won Rookie of the Year—a highly unusual achievement due to his age and prior experience in Japan. Contextually, his MVP win was debatable as other players had better WAR and wRC+ metrics that season. Additionally, his stolen bases, while impressive, are far outpaced by players like Rickey Henderson or Tim Raines, who were also more impactful hitters.
Hall of Fame status requires more than longevity and a high hit total. While his 3,000 hits are remarkable, his inability to consistently generate power (career ISO of .091) or walk (career BB% of 5.8%) limits his offensive impact compared to other all-time greats.
If you vote for Ichiro you’re voting for that 1st decade, only.
His next 9 years he had an OPS+ of 83, he put up 5.2 bWAR in 3395 PA and he hurt most of those teams as a 5th OFer who started far, far too often.
In my book he’s the only player ever to play himself OUT of the Hall of Fame.
That’s not quite the argument against Ichiro. It’s not “Hall of only the top half of all the players voted into the Hall of Fame.”
That’s an absurd standard that over time would make most Hall of Famers unqualified to be in the Hall of Fame as you’d be continuously raising the standard.
Borderline?
@Assdribble_Cabrera
Yes, quite borderline.
He’s in the Rod Carew Lou Brock class. I have no issues with him being elected (I don’t feel he’s a high 90s slam dunk) ears I feel there are others that are being over looked. Pre ped bonds years alone are a superior player.
Suzuki was a great player but he was a singles hitter that could steal a base. Tim Raines superior doing that and he had to wait forever.
Another comparable player who is horrifically over looked is Kenny lofton
@Assdribble_Cabrera
Yes, borderline. Ichiro’s case rests heavily on his hit total, which is undeniably impressive but shouldn’t overshadow his underwhelming advanced stats. His slugging percentage (.402) is shockingly low for a Hall of Fame right fielder. His lack of postseason success (.341 slugging in October) also detracts from his resume.
Without the Japanese league narrative, his MLB-only stats wouldn’t automatically place him among the greats of the game. A borderline candidate is someone who shines in some areas but falters in others—and Ichiro fits that description.
Solid list however, David Wright should not be a hall of famer. Personally I wouldn’t put in CC either but ever since they let Kaat in, it basically downgraded the Hall for people like CC to get in. Vizquel and Jones you can make a case for but I wouldn’t personally have them in
At some point, if the voters didn’t adjust criteria for 5-man starting rotations and 180 innings now being near the top of the league, there would never be another starting pitcher elected. Nobody is coming near Fergie Jenkins’ 1257 IP in four years (1968-1971) much less his nearly 48 bWAR7 (1968-1975) ever again. And Jenkins, while my favorite pitcher as a kid, is not even the best pitcher of the post-expansion 4-man rotation era.
You can’t vote for players across the generations of the game. Kaat played in a different era than Sabathia. Even comparing him to Maddux is tricky
Really? Nowhere near? Verlander 45.0 (2011-2018), Scherzer 45.7 (2013-2019)
Then there’s Kershaw 52.7 bWAR (2010-2017
Marc Narducci: “I don’t vote for those associated with steroids, which means Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez, don’t receive my vote.”
*Votes David Ortiz into the 2022 HOF class*
Lmao
Cc, ichiro & Wagner. The rest pass. East coast popularity votes. Wright couldn’t field yet got more gg over chipper jones.
If Mattingly doesn’t get in then Wright shouldn’t either tbh
Mattingly isn’t on the ballot. How do you know he didn’t vote for him when he was eligible?
I realize that mets enjoyer. I’m saying in general. Should have clarified but I’m tired from driving up and down Long Island for Christmas seeing family all day
Wright got 6.2% of the vote. He probably will not get in. This one writer is voting for him. 28.2% of the vote in his first year on the ballot in 2001.
Mattingly 42.4 WAR/35.8 7-year peak
Wright 49.2 WAR/39.5 7-year peak
Both played 14 years. Wright was better. Neither are HOF caliber players.
To Citizen1,
That Chipper didn’t get any gold gloves at any time isn’t David Wright’s fault. He had all those years, and didn’t in LF nor 3B.
Wright got two,
In 2007 and 2008 when Jones was in his his age 35 and 36 seasons when Jones played 126 and 115 games to Wright’s 159 at 3rd both seasons.
It’s the writers fault. Wright led the league in errors by 3b, two compairitive years jones had a better fielding percentage and fewer errors, even on non gg years. It’s a popularity contest this writer turned into and shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Sportswriters voting for hall of famers is a joke. Which the hall of fame has become with a bunch of compilers in it. And not voting for Beltran cause of 2017 is stupid. He had a hall of fame career, wiping everything out cause of that is a joke. It’s funny how the least credible profession on earth (journalists) determine what behavior is hall worthy.
“Cause” and “because” are two different words.
@carlos15,
I was going to give you a thumbs up until your last sentence.
But I agree, Beltran is a no doubt Hall of Famer, already paid the price for some bad judgement in his final year of a HOF 20 year career.
I do appreciate this writer sharing his ballot and the reasons for his votes. Not many voters would be willing to do that. I can understand some of his takes but there are so many unanswered questions about votes and omissions.
First, why didn’t he apply the “injured but was good when healthy” process to Ian Kinsler? His numbers were better than Wright’s and he played 2nd base.
Second, Bobby Abreu has better WAR than Ichiro’s (just comparing to MLB playing time) and Andruw Jones trumps them both. Why no votes for either one?
Third, why CC Sabathia and not Andy Pettitte or Mark Buehrle? Well, Pettitte may be due to steroids but was there any rumors on Buehrle using? The two pitchers (Sabathia and Buehrle) weren’t that different.
Fourth, this one just boggles my mind – why all the love for Billy Wagner? Sure, he was good, and he has some good numbers but I’m sure that there are many former players who have really good numbers in some areas that won’t get close to making it into the HOF. Wagner’s career WAR is only better than Carlos Gonzalez, Francisco Rodriguez and Fernando Rodney. None of them are even close. Brian McCann has a better WAR and isn’t getting in. Wagner, if elected, will be the new poster child for guys who shouldn’t be in the HOF.
It’s ridiculous that players like Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, McGwire are not in the HOF. Everyone from the fans, the owners, and the writers knew this while they were active. Nobody seemed to care when the Sosa – McGwire HR chase in 98 helped revitalize interest in the sport after the strike of 93. The hypocrisy by MLB and the writers is absurd. Baseball could’ve tested for steroids a long time ago and chose not to. Probably 75% of the HOF took greenies in their career aka amphetamines. They used to have bowls full of them in the locker rooms. But I guess that was ok.
Now you are suppose to help support the Steroid Boys by proclaiming Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, should be in the Hall. That will make the losers you saw in person/TV more appealing. LOL
How is that funny?
Strike was in ‘94
Another person that doesn’t realize that it was the PLAYERS that blocked testing for steroids and other PED. MLB had been asking for it in CBA negotiations since the 1980s.
The players blocked it.
Again, the players blocked it.
Let me repeat that one more time for the terminally ignorant in the back, the PLAYERS blocked testing for steroids and other PED.
MLB didn’t choose not to test. They could not legally do so. It had to be agreed to by the MLBPA in the Collective Bargaining Agreement before MLB could test.
If you are stupid enough to think that greenies increase performance as much as steroids that allow players to return 33% to 50% sooner from injury and make building muscle mass so easy that we saw players add 50 pounds of muscle mass or more in one offseason during the peak years of steroid abuse, then you really need to rethink commenting because you are adding nothing to the discussion of any worth.
It does not matter how quick you can recover from an injury or how strong you are if you are too tired to leverage those attributes in a game. You are not going to get a hit or make a pitch if you are too tired to even play in a game. Think about the double headers that used to be played when greenies were used. Think about the day games after night games. Those are automatic days off for catchers and older players now. Greenies had far more of an effect than people want to believe.
No Andruw Jones, ballot is invalid imo
Would love to know if there were one or two players Marc considered voting for in addition to these five. And if so, what were the determining factors in these No votes?
Dude should have his ballot revoked.
No love for king Felix who would of had HOF numbers had he played on a competent team.
Folks who say this writer should have their ballot revoked should have the privilege of posting a comment on MLBTR revoked. Especially the ones who can’t give up one lunch a year to pay for the many hours of pleasure and information they receive from MLBTR.
Now apply Poe’s Law of the Internet to this comment.
I wish I could give you multiple thumbs up.
Chase Utley? David Wright? What a couple of crappy choices.
@Melchez17,
Utley played a long time.
Wright, on Hall of Fame track was cut down by injury and I can’t think of any players who put more effort into attempted comebacks year after year, and needed 3 hours of pre-game maintenance for his back just to get ready for pre-game practice battling spinal stenosis, spinal fracture. Had shoulder surgery, neck surgery all in an effort to stay on the field and return after age 31.
Character is also a Hall of Fame criteria, it’s in the bylaws, and Wright was second to none there. Universally beloved, and also known as Captain America, and voted the most liked player in MLB by his peers.
So it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Wright could eventually get into the Hall on the strength of his character and performance. The odds are against that, because his career was cut short, but a career .867 OPS, and 133 OPS+ , batting over .300 seven times, OPS over .900 5 times, is worthy of consideration.
Ichiro was so good.
I wonder if Narducci voted for Bud Selig or Jeff Bagwell or Ivan Rodriguez
Bud Selig was through a different process where this writer would not have had a vote. But your other examples are relevant (though as I recall there was reasonable doubt about Bagwell), as is Mike Piazza.
Was Mike Piazza thought to be a steroid abuser? Or proven to be one?
Strong circumstantial evidence for Piazza, but never proven as far as I’m aware. Put him in the same category as Pudge Rodriguez or Big Papi.
Got some sort of proof that Bagwell used?
Ichiro? Obviously. Sabathia? Definitely yes. Wagner? Should have been in years ago. Utley and Wright? Joke.
David Wright would be a Harold Baines pick for me. Utley I would be ok with. Lower tier 2b HoFer but worthy.
I would never vote for Utley or Wright, but how does a guy who does, not also vote for Andruw Jones? He had a short but easily better peak than Utley and Wright.
Maybe because Jones peaked during the steroid era. Not saying he used them, but I know a lot of people shake their heads at guys who “padded” their stats between 1997-2008.
From what source does Marc Narducci denote Beltran as the mastermind of the sign stealing scandal?
I never read anything stipulating Beltran was the mastermind – and that includes the official report of that scandal.
Beltran has paid his dues for what he did to participate. It was his last MLB season…year 20 of a 20 year career. He was already locked in as a Hall of Famer in his 19 seasons before then.. A beloved, respected player and teammate, he made some errors in judgement in that final season. He belongs in the Hall and deserves to be voted in. He was an all around electric player who did many things well for long periods, and is among the few switch hitters in MLB history who hit 400 or more homers.
He’s also just one of 5 players to hit 400 homers and steal 300. Also at the pinnacle of stolen base success rate.
70.1 Career WAR – Hall of Famer
“Mastermind” is probably an exaggeration, but he definitely played a significant role. He was identified as one of the players who developed the scheme with Cora. The fact that he was the only player named in the report (because by then he was retired) is where this “mastermind” perception comes from.
@VegasMoved,
But perception isn’t fact if he doesn’t have any, especially when a HOF voter is explaining himself and appears to be providing misinformation.
I doubt it would change his view much. “Mastermind” or merely “principle conspirator,” either is pretty bad.
If there was a ‘mastermind’, my finger is pointed at Cora.
Anyone besides Wagner and Ichiro, continue the ‘hall of very good’ mantra. Sadly it’s become a joke now.
Sabathia had 251 wins and over 3,000 strikeouts. That earns him a spot in my book. If not a first-ballot, definitely a 2nd.
Anyone who votes for any award should have their ballots released to the public. There are ZERO reasons to keep it private.
andruw jones blows away utley and wright. you from the NE and didn’t see him until he played fat in NY? best CF of all time
Andruw Jones was outstanding, but he cannot measure up to Willie Mays as the greatest CF of all time.
He was probably better than Mays.
@jeffreybecker77
We NE folks saw Jones many times year after year. Who do you think the Braves played against in same division?
I think there’s the belief that he used steroids. His career went downhill after age 30 which was also his last gold glove. I don’t recall if he dealt with injuries thereafter but I very much recall he wasn’t the same player especially defensively. He played very little CF after age 31.
The pseudo-morality of not voting for roiders is so stupid. All it’s done is degrade the Hall of Fame, You’ve got C-listers like Harold Baines going to Cooperstown, and now Billy Wagner (lol) and Chase Utley, but not the not the true legends of the game who were the last players to make MLB resonate in the zeitgeist. Barry, Roger, A-Rod, Big Mac, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Because of self-important BBWA voters Cooperstown no longer has any connection to recognizing the greats of MLB.
@Matt Nokes,
They were great but part of that was from steroids which they chose to use. And I very much recall how their bodies transformed from doing so. they wouldn’t have used them if they didn’t believe there would be a performance and/or recovery benefit. Sammy Sosa got a really big boost from using. Skinny player who didn’t hit for power and then boom.
If Jeff Kent isn’t a HoF then I don’t see how Utley is. And that’s not a slight on Utley, more a reflection of how damn good Jeff Kent was.
Both should be in.
Agreed, the fact that Jeff Kent didn’t get more traction is insane to me
@Super2 Eh, Kent doesn’t have a strong case beyond teh HRZZZ! and a late peak that wasn’t all that high.
Ages:
24, 26, 27, 28 – Cromulent regular, nothing more
25 – Wasted season
29 – 37 – Fine player, but modest peak, about 9 wins lower than that average HOF 2Bman. Only three seasons better than 4.5 bWAR. That’s an anti-credential for the Hall
38 – 40 – One acceptable year, two bad ones.
Career of 3.9 WAR per 162 games v 5.1 WAR for the average 2B HOFer. That’s huge. RBI total inflated by hitting behind Bonds. Very ordinary defender at 2B. 55 WAR, career, not an impressive figure even for a bottom tier HOFer.
More traction and more discussion, sure. A HOFer, though? No, and it’s not particularly close. Toss the 6 bottom most HOFers at 2B (who are in thanks to nepotism or for managing) and Kent looks not just unqualified, but singularly unqualified.
It’s not “Hall of Most HRs at a Position.”
He won a MVP, finished top 10 3 other times and had 6 seasons receiving mvp votes. For a second baseman I’d hardly say that’s a modest peak. (Though I’ll admit Bonds should have won that mvp).
Btw, you embiggened your argument with the use of cromulent.
Amazing. There have been 143 posts before this one, and nobody has tried to plead the case for you-know-who.
Creep Rose?
Who?
Guessing ARod
Trevor Bauer?
Hey look, a baseball writer who thinks too highly of himself…..
Once again a writer that believes this isabout being a moral policeman. Hate to remind you – already steroid users, amphetamine users, and very dubious characters in the HoF. And this was a sport that banned an entire race AND colluded against players, as ‘writers’ looked the other way. Not exactly a moral high ground. Judge on field results (unfair times of whites only and being able to get ‘up’ for games are also ‘cheats’ on integrity) and quit speculating on ‘some’ and not others. Only the popular users are apparently forgiven.
@Angel 4ever,
Present day voters are not responsible for who got into the Hall generations ago, how. and why. Not responsible for segregation, bad actors like Ty Cobb, etc.
The steroid era is not all that long ago evidenced by prolific steroids users still on the current ballot. Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc were front and center users. A-Rod got caught and then lied himself into a pretzel so badly and over a period of time he cannot take back.
These steroids user super stars weren’t one-and-done mistakes – these were deliberate, extended choices for which they now pay the price and each now is faced with asking themselves was it worth it?
The issue is how many used and didn’t get caught? No idea how many “cheaters” are there already.
The HOF is meaningless until Bonds and Clemens are inducted……some of the alleged druggies are already inducted……it is time to revise the voters eligibility requirements and put a time limit on how long you can vote to get a more current mix of voters.
“Alleged” druggies.
Huh.
Chase Utley for the HOF??? He had a good 5 year stretch. Sorry not enough.
Thank you, Marc, for not bowing to inappropriate pressure from the likes of Brian Kenny, who likes to shame writers for not selecting 10 from their ballots. Your ballot is yours and not his. Making yours public took some brass ones, and I commend you for it. I don’t agree with all your selections, but I respect your opinion.
If I had a vote, I’d have tremendous trouble filling out 5, let alone 10. It’s the HALL OF FAME. Not the HALL OF THE VERY GOOD/GOOD. That being said, Sabathia, Wagner, Ichiro, A. Jones are my 4 this year.
Thanks again
Just make the steroid users apologize. Aaron Judge has proven that the steroid users could have still put up the numbers that they put up without steroids.
Not the same numbers but if you understand the league at that time….. The league welcomed it. McGwire and Sosa’s race pumped life back into baseball. Selig was happy to turn a blind eye.
If you want to start discrediting anyone who gets popped for roids from (2006-2010) on or what have you. That’s a bar I agree more closely with. I believe we have multiple steroid users in the HOF right now.
That’s right. Punish the fans with obvious cheats in their Hall of Fame because Bud Selig.
Princess Judge looks like him and Stanton are juicing together. If anyone is juicing it is Judge.
I respect the writer for sharing his ballot, and his choices are his, but I’ve long stopped caring for the Hall of Fame. I’m not a fan of how players are either selected or left off the ballot completely. Both the Rock and Roll and Baseball Hall of Fame have disappointed me for too long. It is what it is.
@Acoss1331
The HOF selection has always been more of a nostalgic decision than it is on actual facts.
I have somewhat more respect for the NPB HOF, as they don’t always induct players, as had happened in 2021 and 2022. If you’re not good enough, you don’t belong. I feel the MLB HOF has watered itself down in the years, but I guess some have argued that it’s more of remembering players and moments than it is about absolute greatness. Personally, I focus on the overall ballplayer and longevity of that skill level. That’s why I like Rickey Henderson in the HOF, as he was a complete ball player. He had speed, agility and power. He was always trouble on the bases and in the batters box.
Old York,
You’re definitely right, HOF is all about the nostalgia, I think I’m going to view the voting process this way from now on. Objectively I think Ichiro should be a universal hall of famer, he’s got the stats. That should be an easy one for the voters.
You might want to look up the definition of nostalgia. A funny way to put it in any event, given that a player isn’t even eligible for the HoF until five years after they retire.
It’s writers like this we need to get rid of. “Won’t vote for guys I associate with steroids “
Where were you when these guys were using steroids? Not doing your job as a journalist. What a joke. Writers like this could never pick up a bat but they could pick up a pen. They failed fans then and are failing us now. Retired from covering the game years ago but he still gets a vote? The HOF voting process is broken
Yeah, blame this writer without having any idea of his public stance on roids.
Courage!
Thanks for these. They are always very cool. It’s nice to know some logical reasoning behind ballot voting.
Evan Longoria belongs in the HOF more than David Wright. Look at the comparisons.
Even though Narducci says Sabathia’s career ERA could work against him, the same argument for Jack Morris could be made for Sabathia. Outside of a less than 3 month stay in Milwaukee Sabathia pitched his whole career in the American League against the DH. For the vast majority of his starts he faced one more actual hitter, rather than a Pitcher. It worked for Morris, it should work for C.C.
It doesn’t hurt the Jack Morris pitched the greatest game in World Series history either
Nonsense. A horrifically bad vote for Jack Morris in no way argues for a horrific vote elsehwere.
Sabathia goes in fairly easily without lowering the standards to Morris’s level (that is to say, rock bottom.)
The PED users I would allow into the Hall only posthumously, no speeches, no ceremony. Quiet induction to recognize the play but without any fanfare to celebrate the person.
Dropped – According to Canseco, who was spot on with his steroids accusations against other players, there is already a player in the HOF who used.
Take a good guess, Canseco heavily implied firsthand knowledge …. which means somebody who played with him.
Kenny Lofton had way more WAR and had a better career than anyone you voted for. What a disgrace
Sad to say, Lofton’s not on the ballot. Lofton had an 8-year peak of 47.5 WAR. Soto in 7 seasons is at 36.4 WAR. Soto’s not going to catch Kenny.
Lofton then went on to put up 20.9 WAR from 2000 through 2007, a respectable regular until he was 40. In 1994 he was a Gold Glove CFer with a 145 OPS+ (!) Great, albeit that would have been a down season during Willie May’s peak. We can’t all be Willie.
That’s still a Hall of Famer.
I don’t think I would vote for any of these in the HOF except maybe—stress maybe—Suzukii. Certainly not Utley or David Wright.
Also, the article would have been better if it listed all the candidates on the ballot, even if he didn’t go into why he didn’t vote for the people he passed over.
Suzuki had over 3,000 hits he’s in, no questions asked. Its players like Walker and Rolen that have no business in the hall.
Muted, just in case idiocy is contagious.
Utley deserves no consideration whatsoever for the hall of fame. Less than 2,000 hits 259 home runs, he didn’t steal bases and no gold gloves and no MVP award .He was simply an above-average player during his era, not even remotely hall worthy. The Hall Of Fame is meant to be ultra exclusive, the best of the best, it’s not for guys who made 6 all star teams and don’t have the numbers. The Hall Of Fame has already been cheapened in recent years with undeserving players like Scott Rolen , Larry Walker and Todd Helton. Larry Walker is the fakest hall of famer ever and should have his membership immediately rescinded. Barely 2,000 hits and less than 400 home runs when you played the vast majority of your career in that numbers inflated atmosphere of Coors Field. It took Larry Walker 10 years while it took Andre Dawson 9 years, when Dawson was the vastly superior player. Dawson had nearly 2,800 hits and 438 home runs, over 300 stolen bases, nearly 1,600 rbi, 8 gold gloves and an MVP award. The fact that Walker got in at all is a crime against the baseball gods, the fact that it took him only one more year than Dawson makes me think there is some racism with these hall of fame voters. These new-school voters shave very low standards. Let’s just start electing every player who made 6 all star teams regardless of their overall career numbers. Most of these new hall voters have proven they aren’t worthy of this responsibility.
Considering the many names unallowed entry and this guy is talking David Wright and Billy Wagner pffft
Billy Wagner should have been in years ago.
I’ve heard just about every argument for Rollins/Utley/Wright/Pedroia to be in and none of them have convinced me. Simply put, none of these guys are anywhere near HOF worthy. It sucks that injuries hampered their careers but just because they had a good 4-6 year stretch while being mediocre the rest of their career does not make them HOF worthy. It’s funny to me that writers argue for guys like Utley but have nothing to say about Ian Kinsler, who has comparable and arguably better numbers than Utley and was more consistent throughout his career. They argue for the guys who don’t have the numbers but then don’t vote for guys like Wagner and Andruw who should have been in years ago. The BBWAA should NOT be voting for a club this exclusive.
We should just get over the whole steroid and cheating scandals already. There are a ton of players who took steroids who suck, so it literally doesn’t make much difference. A-Rod’s numbers as a Mariner before he took steroids were phenomenal by the way, and he would have had a better and longer career if it wasn’t for the steroids. Barry Bonds may have not hit 73 homers in a single season, but he would have way more career homers and been a consistent 50-60+ homer a season guy for a longer period of time. Barry Bonds could have been the greatest to ever play the game. We’re only mad at Carlos Beltran, because he was a bad cheater. A good cheater and smart person never gets caught. Beltran is a moron. Astros would have won the world series anyway, as they were the far superior team. Manny Ramirez also would have been better for longer if it wasn’t for steroids, as would have Big Mac, Slammy Sammy, Jason Giambi, Roger Clemens, Juan Gonzalez and so on. Plus Aaron Judge, Juan Soto, Shohei Ohtani, Giancarlo Stanton, and many others probably regularly get injections up their ass at least a few times a year. Everyone needs to seriously stop crying about it, and if you all are so morally high above everyone else, how about you stop cheating and doing drugs. And why this Narducci guy votes for some guys who have taken steroids and not others is laughable. He’s just insecure. Narducci probably got caught cheating on his wife with a man who also has a small **** and ***** because that guys took steroids. This Narducci probably provided them! Wouldn’t be surprised.
I agree with most of what you said. ARod was likely using in Seattle too. He was absolutely robbed of an MVP due to RBIs. Dude was my favorite player growing up. Only once I realized he was a tool did I stop liking him, but always knew he was one of the best to ever play the game. Anyone that got to watch him and Bonds got to witness something special.
Ichiro Suzuki and Bill Wagner
Baseball owes a debt of gratitude to some of the players associated with steroids. Just remember what the 1994 strike did to the game and how rhe homerun battle between Sosa and McGwire reignited the interest in the game, brought back fans and then some. Then you have a couple of players like ARod and Bonds who can easily be named in an all time baseball greats’ team.
You can talk all you want about Carlos Beltrán and the Astros WS scandal all you want. In my opinion that shouldn’t exclude him to be inducted into the HOF. He was one of the best all-around Center Fielders, and OF as a whole, in MLB history.
Here are a list of some of his accomplishments courtesy of Jason Catania for MLB.com:
On merit alone, the longtime center fielder has one of the best cases for election among the players on the docket this year, based on his performance and production over a 20-year big league career. The Puerto Rican-born Carlos Beltrán was, after all, a Rookie of the Year winner (1999), a nine-time All-Star and a three-time Gold Glove honoree.
1,500 Runs and 1,500 RBIs
Only 38 players in AL/NL history have reached the 1,500 mark in both runs scored and runs batted in. With 1,582 runs and 1,587 RBIs, Beltrán is one of them.
Of those, 30 have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame — and that does not count Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols, both of whom should be a first-ballot electee.
That leaves only the following names not in Cooperstown: Alex Rodríguez, Manny Ramírez, Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro — a group of superstars connected to performance-enhancing drugs in some form.
Put simply, if a player scores and drives in 1,500 runs, Hall of Fame induction usually follows.
500 Doubles, 400 Home Runs and 300 Stolen Bases
Even more rare is the 500/400/300 club.
Only five players in AL/NL history have achieved 500 doubles, 400 homers and 300 steals in their careers. Here’s the list in full: Rodríguez, Bonds, Andre Dawson, Willie Mays … and Beltrán, who has 565 two-baggers, 435 dingers and 312 thefts. That is a collection of the most dynamic power-speed threats baseball has ever seen.
What’s wild is that even if you remove the qualifier for 500 doubles, the list remains unchanged: It’s the same five players — and only them. If you want to boil down Beltrán’s case to a single stat, this is as persuasive as any.
Unparalleled Stolen Base Rate
Speaking of swipes, Beltrán’s career stolen base success rate is the best among all players with at least 200 career steals in the Live Ball Era (since 1920).
Highest SB% in the Live Ball Era (minimum 200 SB)
1. Carlos Beltrán: 86.4% (312 SB, 49 CS)
2. Trea Turner: 85.8% (279 SB, 46 CS)
3. Christian Yelich: 85.1% (205 SB, 36 CS)
4. Mike Trout: 84.8% (212 SB, 38 CS)
5. Tim Raines: 84.7% (808 SB, 146 CS)
It’s even more noteworthy when laid out like so, because you can see the gap between Beltrán and Hall of Famer Raines, the only other retired player in the Top 5. The three active base-stealers conceivably could chase down Beltrán, but even Turner couldn’t catch him yet after a famously record-setting perfect season of swipes in 2023.
70 WAR Career Threshold
To be exact, Beltrán accrued 70.1 career wins above replacement by Baseball Reference’s measure. That puts him in the top 10 among center fielders.
Of the 64 position players to reach 70 career WAR in AL/NL history in the Modern Era (since 1900), all but nine — including Beltrán — are Hall of Famers.
The eight others? Many of the names already have been mentioned: Pujols, Rodríguez, Bonds and Palmeiro. The four remaining are Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich — a pair of second basemen who are two of the most overlooked players in the history of Hall voting — as well as Pete Rose and, none other than Mike Trout, who almost certainly will be a first-balloter once his stellar career comes to an end.
1.000 Postseason OPS
Last but certainly not least, there’s Beltrán’s incredible October résumé.
In his postseason career, he slashed .307/.412/.609 — good for a 1.021 OPS that checks in among the top 10 in AL/NL history.
Highest Postseason OPS (minimum 100 PA)
1. Lou Gehrig: 1.214 OPS
2. Babe Ruth: 1.214 OPS
3. Randy Arozarena: 1.104 OPS
4. Lenny Dykstra: 1.094 OPS
5. Paul Molitor: 1.050 OPS
6. Hank Greenberg: 1.044 OPS
7. George Brett: 1.023 OPS
8. Carlos Beltrán: 1.021 OPS
9. Bryce Harper: .996 OPS
10. Albert Pujols: .995 OPS
Beltrán’s most memorable playoff performance came in 2004 with the Astros, when he hit eight homers to tie Bonds’ 2002 run for most in a single postseason (since surpassed by Randy Arozarena’s 10 in 2020). But Beltrán also crushed in the 2006 NLCS with the Mets (despite the lingering memory of that showdown being his infamous series-ending strikeout looking) as well as in the 2012 and ’13 playoffs with the Cardinals.
All told, Beltrán finished with 16 career postseason home runs and more walks (37) than strikeouts (33) in 65 games. That’s the sign of a star player rising to the occasion against the best the sport has to offer.
If he hadn’t cheated, Beltran should have gone in even if his age 34 season was his last.
The debate over whether, without the cheating, he was a HOFer as of his age 40 season was ridiculous.
I’ve said for a long time the MLB should have a juicer era section with asterisk by the stats
These were the guys I watched growing up, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez. It’s disrespectful to negate them from history
Specially when some of them were never suspended for steroids use.
None of them are negated ‘from history’ of course. Twelve much?
They will be in 100 years bub
And these guys were great ballplayers without the sauce too. Especially Barry Bonds. He wouldn’t have the HR record but would still likely be a hall of fame player of a different variety.
And Clemens, seems like he just juiced at the very end of his career. Infact they should allow TRT to players over 37.
Utley and Wright were darn good players, although they wouldn’t be making my ballot.
He voted for Ortiz. That right there is peak hypocrisy.
Ortiz was a bum until 2003 which was the same year he failed a PED test that the media continue to protect him over.
Being likable is why he gets a pass whereas others who were actually good before the age of 27, don’t.
Let’s not forget how Ortiz looked like he was in decline in 2008-2009 then at age 34 experiences a “career revival”. In his last season at age 40….38 HRs 127 RBIs with a line of .315/.401/.620 and leads all of baseball with an OPS of 1.021 and 48 doubles. Lol yeah….
Clemens is left out of the HOF for less actual evidence of cheating than David Ortiz.
The only actual “proof” is an interview from a sketchy clubhouse figure who spoke to the biased Red Sox front office employee conducting a report on PEDs (George Mitchell)
Ortiz has failed more PEDs tests than Bonds, Clemens, etc combined.
That’s just BS. What PED tests did he fail? Dates, times, details, sources of information, let’s hear it.
The Hall of Fame is for GREAT overall players or really good players who performed for an extraordinary long period, not just GOOD players. Utley and Wright were just good players, who on occasion did some great things, but their careers can be summed up as “they could have been a great if only they stayed healthy category” The ONLY players worthy of the Hall of Fame enshrinement from the current ballot, are Ichiro, Beltran, Wagner and Sabathia. They each brought greatness and longevity, simple as that. These writers today need to stop treating the Hall of Fame like it’s a participation trophy exercise.
You forgot Bonds and Clemens
No matter their “crimes,” they belong
This view from the ivory tower is a joke
Ok Boomer
This list is a poor (except Ichiro, & CC)
& so is the justification on his point of view. Injuries and counting a few good years of a player is BS! The HOF best played 12-24 yrs and all their years & stats matter & count. Since 1905 the measuring of greatness for HOF entry has been pretty much spot on. Let’s not twist it with modern flawed thinking!
Agreed on all your selections, but would like to add one more: Andruw Jones.
D wright woulda been hof
Health issues took that away from him
Because of the Farhan Zaidi types ruining the game, the numbers are going to keep going down so basically anyone can get in. And they are
Amazing this hypocrite won’t vote for “PED” users, yet has voted for Ortiz and Helton.
These so called baseball writers are biased. Jeff Kent was a great player and never came close.
If one makes a HOF argument for temporary “dominance” rather than accumulated stats and acclamation, neither Utley nor Wright qualify. Go look at Koufax’s stats. That’s what it should take.
Johan was the best pitcher in baseball for several years and won two, and should’ve been three, Cy Young’s. Nearly 50 WAR over 8 seasons, 2003-2010. And he’s not in. If a player can’t top that career, they shouldn’t be in either. Utley has a case, but don’t see it for Wright.
What? No Mark Buerhle? Sooner or later he will be appreciated by the HOF voters, and I hope it’s not like the recently inducted POSTHUMOUSLY Dick Allen. He deserves to be in there for being the most durable pitcher during a 13 year period, where he never hit the IL and produced 7 GG’s and averaged 14 wins a season during that stretch. Sure he was not a “K” guy, but he was easily the most reliable pitcher in the game during those 13 years and has a NO-NO and Perfect game to go along with his durability.
Hall of Reliability. I’d go…
100% disagree with Utley & Wright.
Potential was there for sure, but not the longevity for HOF.
I think Wagner should be in, Ichiro for sure (duh) and CC eventually.
Normally, I’d take that last line and stamp it and ship it., but since Mauer was allowed in on the 1st ballot last year, then C.C. is a no-brainer this year. It’s a travesty with HOF voting that Mauer wasn’t 3rd or 4th ballot HOF. If Biggio had to wait 3 years before getting in with 3K hits, then Mauer should’ve waited a lot longer.
Silver lining for me at least….Yadier Molina is a shoe-in now for 1st ballot 3 more years
Mauer and Rolen are just the start of the BS entries in there. If they put Wright in Mattingly should be an auto addition. Peak Mattingly was better than Wright.
Wrights peak was sick..put him in
What a kiss ass
No to Wagner. Yes to Andruw Jones.
No to Sabathia this year. Yes to Mark Buehrle.
No to Wright any year. Yes to Utley and Rollins – you can’t separate them.
Yes to Ichiro.
Since the mid forties, the HOF has included many players who should e in The Hall of Very good.
In this current group, every player is better than a number of players in the Hall and every player is worse than a fair number of players not in the Hall. Election has frequently been a popularity contest, and even with more and more statistical analyses, continues that way.
If we then want to move forward with Excellent players instead of the Very Good ones, then only Ichiro should qualify this year with Buehrle a maybe. If you recognize the stats that ARod put up before his supplement troubles, then you have to put him in as well.
This guy, and every writer refusing to vote for Clemens, Bonds, Arod and others should have their vote revoked. The Hall of Fame is a living historical record of the game. You cannot have a historical record without these players being part of it. You want a wing of the HoF named “the steroid era”, go for it, but hall monitoring when you have Ortiz and other possible PED users in there already because they were media friendly is a joke.
The HoF is an utter joke at this point.
The HOF doesn’t carry the same weight it use to. Not one guy on this list is a HOFer imo. They all had wonderful careers but the HOF is suppose to be for the immortal players. However it’s so watered down now you may as put them all in
Not – I think a lot of what you said is accurate. Sometimes, something that is accurate still can lead to incorrect thinking through.
Consider this, if only “immortals” get in based on back in the day standards, there probably are going to be years and years between inductees. At that rate, people lose interest and people losing interest means tickets aren’t being sold and well, a lot of younger generation fans don’t even know who (or appreciate) the majority of pre-1990 inductees.
Those fans aren’t buying tickets to go see those guys. If HOF wants to continue being relevant, it will have to change with the times or go the way of the horse and buggy.
This has been my point of view in all of my posts – I’m not against the old school and not really against the newer school b cause I think change is a necessary element of survival.
I don’t have to like it (as an old guy) but I do need to realize that some of this is marketing to a new generation of fans. So, I’m ok with the needle being moved a little.
Lost me when he determined steroids users were out. His choice but they were rampant in those years
Why do you keep publishing this Philly homer hack who excludes Andruw Jones for no good reason but goes on an on about why Utley should be in based on his traditional stats? Jones’ traditional stats are BETTER!