Getting a clear picture of the Cardinals’ plans for 2025 has been a bit of a moving target. Multiple reports over the past months indicated the club was looking at a sort of reset year, lowering the payroll as they pivot towards a focus on player development. As such, it seemed fair to expect that a number of veteran players on the roster would be available in trade. In recent weeks, that expectation has been softened, something that president of baseball operations John Mozeliak discussed with Katie Woo of The Athletic this week.
“We have every intention of fielding a good baseball team,” Mozeliak said. “It’s going to have a different profile, but we still have a lot of belief that some of our younger players will take that next step forward. We’re excited about what we have. Now, it is Dec. 5, and things can happen and things can change. But we’re still going into (next season) with optimism that it’ll be a fun baseball team to watch.”
It seems the plan is to walk a bit of a fine line. The Cards are definitely planning to take their foot of the gas pedal a bit, though maybe not to the degree that was initially expected. All signs point to the club spending a bit less on the 2025 roster, but they might just do that by being less aggressive. RosterResource already projects the club about $35MM below last year’s payroll, so the Cards could just avoid signings as opposed to actively looking to move players with notable contracts.
As of a few weeks ago, it seemed fair to expect players like Nolan Arenado, Willson Contreras, Sonny Gray, Ryan Helsley and others would be available. Helsley is an excellent reliever but is one year away from free agency, making it logical for them to explore trades. The other three are in their mid-30s and making eight-figure salaries. They all have no-trade protection but it was assumed by some that they would prefer to be traded to a competitor, rather than sticking out a rebuilding process.
But it was reported last month that Contreras actually wanted to stay in St. Louis and didn’t want to waive his no-trade clause. Since one of the goals of the 2025 season is for the club to evaluate players including catchers Iván Herrera and Pedro Pagés, Contreras will be moved to first base to replace free agent Paul Goldschmidt. Though the reporting was a bit less explicit with Gray, it seems he also had a desire to stay with the Cards next year.
Recent reporting has also suggested that they will hold onto Helsley. They could eventually trade him at the deadline but there is some risk there. Helsley could get hurt or put up less impressive numbers in the first half of 2025. Holding onto him now also prevents the acquiring team from making a qualifying offer after 2025, potentially reducing his trade value.
All in all, it seems the plan is to do something in between rebuilding and full-throated contending. The Cards are going to give playing time to some less proven players and hope for some internal developments. Woo lists Nolan Gorman, Jordan Walker, Lars Nootbaar, Alec Burleson, Pagés and Herrera as players who should get long auditions in 2025. That’s notable for Gorman as he seemed to fall out of favor this past year, getting optioned to the minors with Mozeliak seemingly delivering a harsh assessment of his situation at that time.
“Obviously, it’s a game of production up here and at some point, you’ve got to consistently produce, or we have to find someone who can,” Mozeliak said in August. “I mean, that’s what it ultimately comes down to, and these are hard messages to hear. It can be frustrating, but this is what ends up defining you. With our offensive struggles this year, I think you can strictly look at the inability for consistent performance, day in and day out.”
It seems much has changed since that comment, as Mozeliak now tells Woo that they’re hoping for Gorman to get 600 at-bats next year. He seemed to break out in 2023 with 27 home runs and a strong 11.4% walk rate, working around a high strikeout rate of 31.9%. But his walk rate fell to 8.5% in 2024 as his strikeout rate climbed even higher to 37.6%, leading to his aforementioned optioning to the minors.
The Cards have a few of these talented but unproven players and it seems the plan is to give them a chance to step forward. Walker also had a strong 2023 but fell off in 2024. Burleson had a nice breakout in 2024 that he’ll try to maintain. Nootbaar has been limited by injuries and still hasn’t played 120 games in a season. Pagés and Herrera have been stuck in backup duty behind Contreras.
The overarching plan then is to proverbially throw these players into the deep end and see how well they swim. The Cards believe that, with some success from that group and others, they could potentially compete in 2025. That mentality is leading them to hold onto players like Helsley for now and see how things go. Depending on how the players and the team perform in the first half of 2025 could then determine next steps.
The big remaining unknown seems to be Arenado, who seems to be more open to waiving his no-trade clause than Contreras or Gray, but he hasn’t demanded a trade and the Cardinals don’t seem hellbent on moving him. Whether he returns to St. Louis in 2025 could perhaps depend on what kind of offers are put on the table for him. On top of that, players like Erick Fedde, Steven Matz and Miles Mikolas are impending free agents. The club may be open to trading them depending on the offers, but like Helsley, they could also be retained as the club tries to see if contending in 2025 is possible.
Delusional President. Ruined the Cardinals…
Not trying to defend Mo, but I think this is coming from the owners. They are scared that a total rebuild will destroy ticket sales. They are more concerned about the cash coming in through attendance/Ballpark Village and do not have the stomach for a total rebuild which is what the team probably needs. What’s the point of fielding a team that at best will be 5-10 games under 500
I think this is a fair take on the situation. However, I think the plan was to do a quick rebuild until they realized Contreras wanted to stay, and Sonny Gray wants to hold out. Suddenly, further shedding of payroll isn’t really practical which stops a rebuild. At this point, they are trying to be competitive but don’t want to establish positive expectations.
I think Gray and Contreras unwilling to waive their no trade clause took them a little by surprise and threw a wrench into their plans.
They were hoping upcoming decrease in ticket sales along with getting rid of big contracts, they could at worst break even, which i’m sure they can still be profitable.
Don’t get give no trades if you want to trade them. Not a big deal though. Trade anyone who has value. Try to contend. Do the Cards and their casual fans really want to be a bottom 4 or 5 team just for draft lottery odds? Trade everyone with value. Keep those who aren’t getting offers. Sign guys to fill the holes. Filling the team with my bargain bin values will allow them to contend in nl central and for final wild card. Even get a longer term deal. Don’t think ownership wants to rebuild for 4 or 5 years. Reload and give it a shot.
I liked what mo did selling off 2023 deadline. Easy thing to do but he didn’t mess it up.
If it was that easy to just sign bargain bin values that will work out that’s all teams would do. There is a reason these players become bargain bin and that is the question marks they carry.
Those question marks are known all across MLB that’s why the players are discounted. Now let me guess you know better than all MlB front offices. That’s about as amusing as when you tried to say a player “wasn’t on your top 100 prospects list”. Like you had a detailed top 100 prospects list!!! LMAO!!!!!!
Sorry to clue you in here man, the rest of the world doesn’t have this same high opinion you do of yourself. That’s why you are here commenting and not being paid handsomely to advise some MLB team or have a permanent job with one.
That is all some teams do or mostly do. I hit on my recommendations all the time. I been here a long time. Everyone in here knows who I am. I literally grade every single significant trade and chime in on most free agent signings. There’s no way I could act this arrogant if I was wrong. I would have to change my name half a dozen times I year like most of you do. Who says I don’t work in baseball? Who says I would want to? Anyone with average intelligence or higher can figure out if I wanted to I could. And if I could create formulas for projecting player value I could do the same for something else and for a much larger company than a mlb team. I outperform teams doing this a hobby with little time invested and spending zero $.
Fans will show up regardless they have a huge outreach and people will travel to St Louis. Just give out some Yadi bobbleheads to appease them
In the NL Central, you’re kinda obligated to field a competitive team. This may be the year that the Brewers finally fizzle out after losing too much talent, and the Cubs seem to have ZERO interest in spending the necessary dough to dominate the division.
John Mozeliak, (as verified by all of the Boo’s he receives every time his name is announced over the loud speakers at Busch Stadium), has established himself as the most hated person ever employed in the Front Office by the St. Louis Cardinals!!!!
…Over the last 8 seasons Mozeliak’s philosophy of obtaining multiple Low Hanging Fruit players during the Off Season and at the trading deadline …. rather than building around Goldschmidt and Arenado with quality players —— literally killed any chances the Cardinals Organization had of being a Team designed to be legitimate division champion contenders …. much less National League Championship contenders.
John Mozeliak’s Legacy will now go down in Cardinals History as the individual who caused the National League’s Historic Cardinals Baseball Team’s “DOWN FALL” !!!!
“Not the person who helped build a 2011 World Champion team”!!
A man is just as good as his word!!!
Judging by that old Proverbial saying ——
John Mozeliak, as a person, isn’t worth a plug Nickel and cannot be Trusted with anything he says or does!!!!!
Apparently his plans are to try and trade washed up players with bloated contracts, while retaining the players that teams would actually want to trade for.
For example, he is willing to trade Arenado and Matz, washed up and overpriced.
Ryan Helsley: Everyone would want, but he is unwilling to trade him.
Arenado had a 3 win season last year which was better than most 3b. He’s not washed up. Also his contract declines the next few years so as he declines so does the contract.
Three wins ain’t enough for $30m (what he makes next year after the Rox contribution). He’s under water, albeit only slightly now. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to move him unless they want to return Gorman to his original position.
The Cardinals owe Arenado 27 million, then 22 million then 15 million the next 3 years. Your 30 million number is entirely false.
They don’t want to move him. The only reason they would trade him is because he is unhappy.
$3m is hardly “entirely false.” His salary was $35m for a long time, so sue me I missed that it dropped by less than 10%.
Doesn’t change that his contract is underwater. Always has been. Can only be dumped for minor prospects unless they pay it down.
It starts at 27 then goes to 22 and then 15. It’s an average of less than 22 a year. He’s slightly overpaid but it’s not some albatross of a contract.
If they need to move someone to 3B, it should be Walker.
Walker is bad at 3B
Walker is too big and stiff to play third base in the bigs. They should have moved him to right field OR first base when he was drafted. Spending so much time at third stalled his defensive development.
The past two years, working on his defense has stalled his offense!
2.5 WAR for Arenado this season. Isaac Paredes had 2.7, and I’m not big on Paredes, but he makes less than a third of Arenado’s contract.
He needs to go to Bloom or whoever is taking over and let them sell everyone with 2 seasons or less remaining that any team is willing to give fair value for. Keep the rest. Fill in the holes and contend or central final wild card.
The talk about lowering payroll at the end of year meetings was to explain why they were letting Lynn, Gibson and Goldschmidt go. Thats what it always was. This idea that the team was rebuilding and selling off their talent came from somewhere else. Heck myself that’s what I wanted them to do but thats not what they said they were going to do.
If the Cardinals need to sell off their team and rebuild then so do half the teams in baseball. There are teams that need to be rebuilding the Cardinals are not one of those teams.
I don’t think 2025 is going to be the year. But lets not pretend the Cardinals can’t lower payroll and still put a good team out there. They can. They need the young talent to get opportunities and then perform with those opportunities and that is where the offseason focus is.
I feel the Angels need to rebuild badly.
Yes completely agree the Angels are in denial they need a total rebuild.
@Blackpink/Joel You don’t quite grasp a subtle approach do you? When he’s speaking of getting young players playing time and a team being fun to watch, that’s not a guy saying we re good enough to contend.
They have multiple players who have NTCs who won’t make trading them easy. They are decreasing spending and have multiple aging players filling every day rolls.
Come the trade deadline They are still at the mercy of multiple players NTCs. That dies not change. You might not like hearing reality but that is reality.
I’m surprised Perry is still running things there. Maybe Moreno wants it to be run like this though, not sure how they do things over there
I don’t think they can rebuild. Anderson Renfengo whatever Ward should all been moved. Why keep Pillar? Then they would draft a lower ceiling guy at a non premium position just because they can throw him on the mlb team soon. Take on some non needle mover with bloated salary in trade.
As usual, Mo offers lots of words and almost no substance. The perfect politician. There’s no point in speculating about what they will or won’t do. The fine fine line he is trying to walk is lowering expectations without hurting ticket sales. Classic Mo.
Am i missing something? He pretty clearly stated what their intentions are for 2025 – let a lot of the talented and unproven players get as many at-bats in as possible and see what the Cardinals got while also improving player development.
Now is that a good plan? I don’t like it not urgent enough for a Cardinals team that hasn’t won a postseason game since 2020.
We don’t know the behind the scenes story with Arenado. Maybe he was battling some nagging injuries, who knows? The guy still plays amazing defense. He just needs to get back to pulling the ball. Stop trying to be a spray hitter. If they get a decent prospect offer, trade him. If not there is a real chance of him improving offensively next year. Of course Marmol will bat him 3rd or 4th which does not work. Move him down to 6th or 7th and he will relax. Not a clutch guy at all any more, sadly.
His D is down substantially. No longer elite. And when that goes, it goes FAST.
This is entirely wrong! His defense was excellent in 2024. In the first half of 2023 he struggled some but after he recovered from the injured shoulder he was quite good in the second half!
I saw no mention of Saggese or any other minor league players. That’s who I want to be given a chance.
Please let them trade Siani so he can’t be the CF starter. Anybody is better offensively.
Saggese will get chances but he’s not going to be counted on as a starter until midsesson at the earliest.
The only team need when it comes to position players is a right handed hitting center fielder. With one of those Siani should at least sit vs lefties.
I agree. Siani may never be a good hitter, but a platoon would be ideal. His defense plays.
“ it seems the plan is to do something in between rebuilding and full-throated contending”
Isn’t that what the Cardinals have been doing for over 10 years?
The Cardinals always try to compete sometimes it’s more successful than others. The team from 2004 to 2015 was as good as any team in baseball. And if you look at the payroll they actually started spending more after 2015 they just didn’t spend it wisely. Fowler, Leake and Cecil all stupid contracts. Taveras died that also set the team back.
Like I’ve said, Mozeliak was handed an excellent team built by others then slowly but surely ran it into the ground.
His ultimate legacy will be neglecting minor league development in a small market. That’s going to take a while to rebuild. Luhnow left it in great shape. The Cardinals should have promoted Luhnow to GM instead of Mozeliak.
He hasn’t ran the organization into the ground. The team was a division winner as recently as 2022. The farm system is in good shape right now and has carried the team in the past. The problem lately has been either players coming up and not performing(Walker,Gorman) or players being ready and not getting chances(Liberatore, McGreevy).
Your last sentence proves my point about his legacy. He gutted minor league coaching.
Firing Schilt after he had a good season and replacing him with Marmol was definitely a mistake. And having Marmol has led to lesser coaches on his staff because nobody wants to work for Marmol.
Mo has muddied the water with his prospects. He makes poor trades and makes sure all the new guys get ample playing time. He is probably trying to make himself look good even though we all know he’s not. This takes away from the advancement of the drafted players.
Not quite. He was given a budget. He wanted to bring in some outside talent. He was told, do it…but you have to rob peter to pay paul..
I’m generally well disposed to the DeWitts. But this was on them. The part left out was that they greenlighted increasing MLB payroll, but 9only if he made cuts elsewhere. He tried to walk the wire, and it didn’t work. But that was on BDW.
Nonsense. 2011 doesn’t happen without Mozeliak. 2013 doesn’t happen without Mozeliak. The weird cult of Luhnow is….well it’s just weird.
So you do admit MO decided the priority. As I see it the DeWitts are making a decision by who they hired to replace MO but allowing him to end his contract.
Why is it weird to acknowledge who built the Cardinals farm system then went on to build championship teams in Houston?
sudsy11 ……
You’d better check out the rosters of the teams you mentioned….
2011 …. You’ll see players main roots began With Walt Jockerty and others.
2013 … Mozeliak did do a good job. He replaced a superstar quality player with a superstar quality player!! added Carlos Beltran to replace the loss of Berkman.
I wish Mozeliak would have stayed with his original philosophies he began with!!!
Replace star Quality players with matching Star quality players!!!
Somewhere … Mozeliak became dedicated to the two theories and phrases which killed him and the Cardinals!!!
“Lightning in a Bottle!”
&
“Low Hanging Fruit!”
In what bizarro world, alternate reality universe was Liberatore ever at a point of “being ready”? 5.00 plus ERA (even the FIP/xFIP were bad) never screamed ready, yet he got a few shots, and he proved what he proved in Memphis: That his fastball was slow with no spin rate as a starter. Matz never blocked Liberatore. No, Liberatore’s abysmal performance and abysmal fastball blocked Liberatore.
McGreevy wasn’t ready in 2023, he only had a few good starts, scattered throughout the first half of the season, with most of that in Springfield in April 2023. He had like 3 of 5 excellent starts in July 2023 with Memphis, but that wasn’t a mandate to start in the Majors….especially since the other 2 starts were are around 5-7 Earned Runs Allowed. That meant he WASN’T going to be anywhere near an opening day starting rotation. in 2024….Just like Liberatore.
Please stop with “Libby and McGreevy were being blocked by GIbson, Matz, Lynn, Mikolas” ….you don’t perform, you don’t get the chance….. McGreevy had an excellent summer in 2024, so….he got the chance in 2024.
Stop the revisionist history, Joell. They didn’t play in 2022 and 2023 b/c they hadn’t earned the shot or we’re near AAA at the time.. There was no conspiracy
Stats and performance matter.
Yes, they’ve smartly taken advantage of a perennially weak division to stay in the running year in and year out. They could still do that actually, as nothing’s changed in the NL Central.
But that is changing. There are no weak sisters in the NL central, anymore
Exactly true. And that’s why they wasted the best Goldenado years and even many peak Pujols years. Always a starter and a couple relievers away from actually going for it to be being great and actually win the WS.
2006 ruined it for us. Since then they have always had the goal of simply getting a wild card and then it’s hopes and prayers that we get hot at the right time. They need to actually rebuild and get these young g possible future core players enough ABs to know who they are.
Exactly!. Mozieliak has only been doing the bare essentials with fielding these cardinals teams in recent years. only enough to put asses in the stadium just for the Dewitts to sit back & count their hundreds of millions each year!. If they really wanted to put a winning team on the field they could very easily do that!..Dont be fooled cardinal fans. any team truly wanting to win championships do everything possible to achieve that goal. Not half ass try to win by only going after the cheapest talent available or pray to the baseball gods some team literally gives you a decent player by mistake so u can then take credit for scooping up that player just because they fell in your lap from pure luck!…you never heard the dodgers ask their fans to pray their franchise can compete NOW HAVE YOU??….my point exactly!!
They weren’t exciting in 2024, which is why fans dind’t show up.
They will be even less exciting in 2025.
Baseball is a boring sport. I think having Pujols masked that fact from us Cardinals fans but it’s boring.
And you’re here why? Shouldn’t you be watching a group of men stand in a circle, before then having 2 seconds of activity for every 40 seconds of game time? That’s really exciting.
@sudsy He doesn’t watch the sport he’s made that obvious time and time again. He’s a fan of stats and baseball news.
He has this weird obsession of posing straight up 1 for 1 trades as well as this weird affliction for Moncada. I’d have to guess the word “spectrum” has been used with him often.
Actually, if the fans had watched, instead of being locked into “hater” mode, there was some really good stuff to watch. I’ve been around a long time, and never seen such insane negativity from a fanbase for a team playing roughly 500 ball.
Winn was brilliant, Siani was a defensive revelation, Donovan was his entertaining scrappy self, Burly was just flat out fun, the bullpen was filthy more often than not. The whining and crying was sad. A lot of people missed a lot of good baseball because they were intent on being miserable.
Sudsy11 —- as usual, I agree with most of what you stated. The players you mentioned were fun to watch and you are correct … the bullpen looked good.
However…. I believe what the fans are crying about is the fact that an additional quality pitcher or hitter wasn’t added when they could have been the boost the Cardinals needed to power them into the playoffs.
Instead ….
Mozeliak’s theory of ‘throwing away money’ on 2-3 “Lightning in a Bottle” or Wishful thinking “Low Handing Fruit” type of players never panned out.
Common sense would tell you to add just a little more money, plus time and effort… Could have actually gotten that key player to put the Cardinals over the top.
Mozeliak either didn’t have the skills any more or just would never go that extra mile to accomplish a team Championship building mentality.
Basically a battle to see who gets everyday playing time and who is relegated to DH.
I despise m o and hold him accountable for destroying this franchise. The wallet as well. Greedy politicians is all they are.
He doesn’t own team
Dewitt??? Or…the wallet???? Huh????
If they can extend Helsley for 5/50, that would still leave the door open for a trade later on. The mistake would be not trading him if they can’t extend him. Mo’s comments don’t come across delusional if you factor in a rebound offensively from Arenado, 140+ games of Contreras, development of Noot and Walker, and see Mathews in the rotation. I believe Matz and/or Fedde will get traded, thereby opening a slot behind Gray, Pallante & McGreevy. If they can sign an effective bp arm for less than $5, I can see them competing for the Central. The outfielders need to take a step forward (maybe even a leap) if they’re going to be relevant.
Arenado’s offense declined steadily the last 2 seasons. Counting on a rebound seems foolish. The glove still plays though.
You’re correct that it would be foolish to count on him to rebound. Maybe he does improve a little if the lineup around him is doing well. He’s no longer a clean-up hitter. I haven’t liked him batting 3rd, 4th or 5th these last two seasons. I would be fine with 6 or 7. I do believe Contreras can play 140+ if he’s not catching. That said, a lot of things need to bounce the Cardinals’ way in order to win the Central.
It’s a division without a big spender. More than any division in baseball I feel like smart FA signings can take you to the top. I think the Cards will be the there in a year or two. I think they should trade some pieces to set them up for a big run next year.
This team is not contending……. They kept marmol. This is a transition year to bloom. There is no reason to keep Arenado Gray Contrases or Helsley. Yes probably will have to pay some of the contracts down to get better prospects, it happens in baseball. If Mo would have invested in the minor league system this probably wouldn’t be happening. When they decided to fire shildt is when this SHOULD have happened. Since then with marmol has been a joke. Watching him manage is just as bad as Mike matheny easily the top two worst cardinals managers of all time. Long time cards fan here just preparing the rest of red bird nation its gonna be a rough couple of years but got to believe in bloom TB and Boston have good farm system. It will turn around
The trio have a no-trade clause so they have to approve the trade. That can be a very big obstacle to work around. Some of the traits I have seen in Pujols that made him so good was that he was always watching tape, working on his swing as well as his defense. He was an absolute grinder and machine-like with his approach. He was always adapting to what pitchers did. Arenado would do well to follow that model.
I know they do. But age winning the World Series should factor in their decision. This team isn’t going to win till at least marmol and mo are gone. Probably going to be a couple of years. If a team that has a shot at a World Series and calls I’m going.
True, if the Dodgers are interested in Nolan, we should try to make it happen. It’s already a team of superstars, he could finish his career on the biggest contender’s stage. I would also be listening to the Yankees if they called.
@Nick Gray flat out said he wants to play in the STL and mentioned his NTC. Contreas alluded to the same. They obviously don’t prioritize being on a viable contender and have other reasons that they prefer staying in STL.
Also very good analysis of Pujols.
Everything I’ve seen on Arenado says he’s constantly working and striving to improve both fielding and hitting. Molina did the same to become the great catcher he was.
I kinda expected Goldie to decline but for Nado to decline this much was a shock. He’s 4 years younger. I guess Father Time is undefeated, though.
I think Arenado is a very good bounce back candidate. He works hard and stays in excellent physical condition.
“We wanted to trade all of our expensive veterans but none of them would let us so we’re just gonna have to go with what we’ve got”
Any cardinal fan can read between the lines, and what Mo just said. We plan on not spending money to try to win. Why did Mo come out today and say this.? Simple, anybody can see there’s a change of thought at the top. If they cared about winning, they wouldn’t be talking like this and they certainly would not have dusty rusty as they’re pitching coach, and Ollie Molly as their manager.
Teams have budgets. Not all can do what the LA and NY teams do. Keep St.Louis spending in perspective. How much are they spending compared to their levels in the past, and their current revenue. They can’t be expected to sign Soto.
Until brass finally accepts that Oli isn’t the man for this job, this team will be stuck in no man’s land.
No real facts in anything Mozeliak says. Just his mouth moving. A no-trade cause is not insurmountable, just takes money and real interest by a real contending team and most any player would pull the plug on staying in STL. STL and Mozeliak screwed themselves by giving out no-trade clauses in contracts in the past.
As a Brewers fan I absolutely LOVE this. No quicker way to not only fail in 2025 but for many years to come.
Have to prop expectations at the hot time for season ticket sales!
For the life of me, I just don’t get the negativity thrown at Mo & Ollie. No other manager in MLB would have finished 4 games over .500 with Arenado & Goldschmidt having down years, Contreras missing almost half the year, Nootbaar and Herrera missing significant time, Gorman & Walker playing their way to Memphis, on and on. As for Mo, the recency bias is ridiculous – his work over the past 20 years has been exceptional. He will be leaving the Cardinals in great shape as their 40-man nucleus is above average and their minor league system is excellent. One last thing – after May 11th, the Cards were 13 games over .500, and fans stayed away. So much for the “best fans in baseball.”
I don’t know if Mo ruined anything in StL but he sure has watched a great run for the city come to a very unceremonious end. Probably he should be remembered as the last of the greats to retire, after Molina Yadi and Pujols. In his mind anyway :lol
It’s hard for a Cardinalss Fan to even look at a picture of John Mozeliak without wanting to tear it up.
Just like he has torn up our Historic Cardinals Franchise!!!