The Guardians have reunited with a longtime veteran of the organization, announcing a one-year deal with first baseman Carlos Santana. The Octagon client is reportedly guaranteed $12MM. The signing comes on the heels of the club agreeing to a trade that sent first baseman Josh Naylor to Arizona on Saturday.
Santana, 39 in April, is a veteran of 15 MLB seasons who made his big league debut with Cleveland back in 2010. A catcher early in his career, Santana eventually moved to first base and has been defined throughout his career by phenomenal plate discipline. His walk rate has never fallen below 10.5% in a season across his lengthy big league career, and his strikeout rate surpassed 20% just once back in 2011. The one-time All-Star has spent ten seasons in Cleveland and will now suit up for an eleventh in year 16 of his big league career.
A career .251/.368/.450 (121 wRC+) hitter with the club, Santana has seen his bat decline somewhat since he last suited up for Cleveland back in 2020. He’s played for five teams over the past four seasons, including the Guardians’ division rivals in Kansas City and Minnesota. Santana has been more of a league average hitter in those stints away from Cleveland, hitting a collective .224/.320/.392 (99 wRC+) since he last played for the club. With that said, 2024 was a bit of a rebound season for Santana as he slashed a solid .238/.328/.420 (114 wRC+) in 150 games for the Twins while playing strong enough defense at first to earn his first career Gold Glove award. What’s more, even in his down years Santana has continued to hit well against left-handed pitching with a 125 wRC+ against southpaws across the last four seasons.
It’s hard to imagine the Guardians committing $12MM to a longtime face of the franchise coming off a three-win season just to make him a platoon player, and Santana surely figures to be the club’s regular first baseman in 2025. That leaves well-regarded youngster Kyle Manzardo, a top-100 prospect prior to the 2024 season who posted a 98 wRC+ in his first taste of big league action this year, likely relegated to a part-time role with appearances at DH while occasionally spelling Santana at first base. With that said, Manzardo’s presence offers the Guardians some insurance against Santana’s age catching up to him as well; pairing the lefty-swinging youngster with Santana’s switch-hitting bat that has long crushed lefties figures to be a solid way to get value out of the first base position even if Manzardo doesn’t take a step forward and Santana finds himself unable to replicate his excellent 2024 campaign.
Notably, Santana’s $12MM salary for 2025 is identical to the $12MM projection put forward by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz for Naylor’s final year of arbitration eligibility. That makes Santana and Naylor a one-for-one swap from both a financial and team control perspective. Naylor (118 wRC+, 2.7 fWAR) was the slightly better hitter but slightly less productive overall in 2024, though the 11-year age gap between the two means he also projects better than Santana going forward. Even so, the addition of Santana allowed the Guardians to trade Naylor for right-hander Slade Cecconi and a pick in Competitive Balance Round B of the 2025 draft without losing much if anything in terms of on-the-field production for 2025.
That sleight of hand by the Guardians had the side effect of taking two more names off of a crowded first base market that has rapidly begun to thin out in recent days. Naylor and Santana are joined in having found their 2025 homes recently by Paul Goldschmidt, who signed with the Yankees on a one-year deal earlier today, and yesterday saw Christian Walker land a three-year deal with the Astros. Pete Alonso is the top free agent available at first base and remains on the market, with players like Anthony Rizzo, Josh Bell, Justin Turner, and Mark Canha still available in the lower tiers of the market. The trade market has fewer options who are clearly available, but Nathaniel Lowe of the Rangers, Yandy Diaz of the Rays, and LaMonte Wade Jr. of the Giants are all at least plausible candidates to change hands.
Jeff Passan of ESPN first reported the Guardians and Santana were in agreement on a one-year, $12MM deal.
Plot twist
Solid signing, Guardians! $12 million is more than I expected but well worth it. ANot to mention, adding a gold Glover compliments their attempts to upgrade the rotation nicely. Overall, just an intelligent signing by a team with a clear strategy.
You don’t have to rub it in. /sarc
I wish the Giants had signed him,especially at that price. How can you be unhappy with a guy like Goldy for one year?
@Dank
What makes you think there “miscalculations” rather than just a difference of appearance between their actions and your opinion? Fans act as if Cashman can dictate what the other side accepts or where they may prefer to play?
With all due respect, their hasn’t been a single article stating the Yankees offered a contract to Santana or Turner or even a trade proposal for Mountcastle. We know indisputably that Cashman made no serious effort to sign a lower cost, higher floor alternative. In that scenario, what the player would have decided is irrelevant because we know our GM’s laziness precluded any possibility of signing them in the first place.
You will eat those words!
How exactly does Santana have a higher floor than goldy? Santana is a below 800 ops guy for his whole career but you’re talking about him like he’s some stud
Who won the AL gold glove for first base last season? Who had the better strikeout and walk rates last season? I suspect you’ll avoid answering the questions. I’m not misrepresenting Santana as a stud so much as you and the other clueless hordes are attempting to negate the steep decline Goldschmidt is indisputably in.
The one stat based argument for Goldschmidt I’ve heard is that “he hit better in the 5 and 6 holes” and even that relies on a grand total of 113 PAs last season.
The apologists for this signing need to stop lying to themselves.
I’m the biggest Santana fan in here. Many thought he was finished when Pirates signed him. At 12m not as big a fan as past years. Goldschmidt has same floor and higher ceiling. I’m also the biggest Goldschmidt fan here so no biased.
Goldy had to have a down season just to reach how avg Santana has been his whole career. You’re going off one year and it’s laughable.
That’s a nice attempt at spin but one season’s worth of stars still carries more weight than pure nostalgia.
@dank
I’m 100% positive that the media is unaware of every conversation had between GM/Agent. Maybe he had a conversation and didn’t like the terms the player sought or maybe the player didn’t want to come to NY? To call Cash lazy is crazy considering all that he’s done so far this off-season. I guess some opl win never be satiated. That’s more to do and I’m sure they will.
Nice try, but Bob Nightengale had no trouble reporting on the talks that Santana and the Yankees had:
clutchpoints.com/mlb-rumors-yankees-carlos-santana…
What he didn’t report was any sort of contract proposal because nothing of the sort ever occurred. I can’t wait for the explanation of how a player can reject a non-existent offer.
@dankyank LOL. Ya should submit your resume to Hal for Cashman’s job.
You should try making an actual argument in favor of Goldschmidt instead of relying on nostalgia and appealing to Cashman’s authority. I won’t hold my breath…
Goldy is fine so long asits understood he is likely to be about league average
Here is my argument, I like Goldschmidt better. I could Period that, but here’s more:
I’ve always been a fan, had him on numerous fantasy teams.
I thought his “steep decline” was overblown. I like his career numbers better than Carlos’.
High possibility his signing gets Nolan to wave his no trade clause.
I’ve never been a fan of Santana. Again fantasy plays a part, but you talk numbers a lot and that’s all about numbers.
So today, I got a favorite player on my favorite team which I’ve been a fan of since the early 80’s. I’m happy about it.
My GM obviously liked him better, too.
We good? Because it’s honestly subjective anyway with many ways to view it. And yours, for sure, is not the end all, be all.
And, for heavens sake, let’s just give this forum back to Guardians fans.
Thats a lot of truth. But dnt forget your GM liked him based on the price tag more than all else. Its unlkkely you will find any impact everyday player for that price in free agency. I do agree he beats santana for sure
Well yes, but they were about the same price so not sure that makes a difference here per se. Great price on both tbh! Probably two of best of the off-season money wise.
Also Goldschmidt is the way better signing. Even with the gold glove defense value of Santana he barely produced more WAR then Goldy and it’s the first time ever Santana was more valuable. Goldy has the way stronger track record which you have to know and has been far more productive recently last season aside. Goldschmidt also hit much better the second half of the season and is going to a very hitter friendly park. The man won the MVP 3 seasons ago. Goldschmidt had MUCH higher exit velocity and hard hit rate. Santana had slightly more luck with BABIP and even with that and Santana “supreme plate discipline” Goldschmidt still managed to have a higher BA. Goldy had more XBH. Outside of the singular gold glove season and the SO & BB rates it’s hard to find an argument that Santana was even better last season then add it Goldy has been 10x more valuable throughout his career and it’s a no brainer. I hope your somehow impossibly right though and the Yankees suffer from this signing.
That’s fantastic. Sounds like you’ll have no trouble proving Santana rejected a tangible offer from the Yankees. And if the entire report is false, that means both the talks and the offer never existed and thus, couldn’t logically be rejected.
But thanks for taking the time to put your ignorance on full display in a public forum. Truly your finest hour.
If your reasoning is merely the guy comes of the books it doesnt exactly bode well
The disappearing walk rate and escalating K rate. The defense that is now merely league average. I hate to break it to you but a further decline is at least as likely as a rebound.
It’s a one year deal, dank, I’m willing to take that chance. The Yanks are way better than the Cards, so it’s highly possible this also reinvigorates him. This shouldn’t be a make or break acquisition for you especially when you’re arguing to get Carlos Santana who’s a year older who could face his own decline just merely based on age!
I’ve given my kudos to the Guardians in separate comments on this signing, thanks.
Nostalgia isn’t fact based, the MLB isn’t fantasy baseball and Goldschmidt isn’t the player he was in 2022 or 2023. Why do the apologists for this signing insist on projecting loudly after they’ve demonstrated their inability to understand simple concepts? The complete denial of reality is getting nauseating.
Santana *could* enter a decline whereas Goldschmidt is already in a steep one. So we both agree, Santana is the better player at this point in time. I’m sure you’ll keep finding a way to dance around the obvious.
As Cashman had conversations with both players’ agents and the Yankees paid $500k more for Goldy, it’s plain that the team viewed him as the better player for 2025. Time will tell if this was a wise or unwise decision. But the idea that this decision is the result of laziness on Cashman’s part is kinda an absurd take. I look forward to seeing what the team does at 3rd base next, as I’m hoping for an upgrade at that spot next.
Santana was a full 1.7 wins better than Goldschmidt, yet cost half a million less. Only someone willfully obtuse would claim “great prices on both” when the cost per win is so widely divergent. Just admit what we all already know. Revisionism is not a good look for you.
No I’ll just stop arguing with someone that has a complete lack of respect to others with differing opinions. Peace out!
You’ve already admitted that your preference for Goldy was based on emotion and having him on some past fantasy team. If you’re going to assert that he’ll be productive in 2025, try offering some supporting evidence.
I don’t think you realize how nauseating it is watching someone relying entirely on nostalgia and past production as their argument attempt to position themselves as the voice of reason. Seriously, get a grip.
He is a first ballot hall of famer. He does not need to provide u with more evidence to think goldy can give some value, get over it. Theres a chance goldys numbers go up a bit. Age implies neither santana nor goldy will improve, so its a boring debate. Likely neither player has much left, but maybe some league average production
Look at how you talk, man. You started this whole tirade calling your fellow fans morons as if you somehow magically are smartest fan in the room. And you’re telling ME to get a grip??? lol, bro, I’m beyond the voice of reason compared to you.
But, you asked for an argument, my argument was thus, and as a fan that’s more than enough. I didn’t assert anything because I cannot pretend to predict the future and neither can you. We have no choice, BUT to look at the past.
And downplaying fantasy when it gives me better insight regarding numbers on more players than most average fans is silly.
But more importantly, again, my advice to you is to learn how to converse with respect for others. My emotion and nostalgia might make you nauseous, but you’re exactly the kind of fan that makes people hate the Yanks.
We can debate this until we’re both blue in the face but the past for the proponents of this signing conveniently circumvents the 2023 and 2024 seasons. That’s called selective memory.
Furthermore, the team didn’t acquire the moniker “evil empire” by repeatedly signing role players, but from a well documented track record of trying to sign and trade for the biggest name on the market. That strategy is a hallmark of the Steinbrenner family and it’s failed more often than it worked.
I really hate to break it to you but opposing fans route against us because of the big signings and acquisitions based on name recognition, which are the polar opposite of what I’m arguing for.
Make of it what you will buy I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that even the defenders of the Goldschmidt signing believe their own arguments.
The move makes sense but its not something that makes the yankees better really, just fills the hole and retains flexibility
@dank
Maybe it’s something way simpler than he wanted to retire with the team that drafted him and he was with for most of his career? Like I said, I preferred Santana but maybe he didn’t want the Yanks?
By all accounts a contract was never offered so there was no opportunity for Santana to turn down the Yankees in any definitive sense. Again, I blame Cashman for precluding any possible signing.
Obviously a free agent is free to make any decision he wants but the Yankees were effectively never an option since our GM never advanced past the talks phase. Trying to look solely at a player’s actions while ignoring every other preceding development is just lazy and dishonest.
I’ve given Cashman full credit for the moves that were indisputable upgrades (the Williams and Bellinger trades) but rounding out the lineup and accumulating depth have been his weaknesses for a very long time. In light of those shortcomings, I have zero hesitation believing he took the path of least resistance and offered a deal to the biggest name.
If I’m being totally uncharitable, Cashman is acting at Hal’s behest and opting for name recognition as a way of giving the perception the team is spending more than it really is. Perhaps that’s conspiratorial but I find it unfathomable that this team spends so much only to go into every season with numerous holes in the lineup.
@dank, you okay, bruh?
I’m surprised you’re not more apoplectic that the Yankees didn’t get Naylor…10 years younger, about the same price as Goldy, and the Diamondbacks got him for a SONG. That 27 year old left handed power bat would play just fine in Yankee Stadium. That is where Cashman dropped the ball.
@Dat
wouldn’t revisionist comments be too premature since we have no idea how either player will perform next year? and you have to get past the idea that every player will go simply where either the most money is or because of the lie of the Yanks. Seeing as how the Yanks were connected with him and he decided to go back to Cleveland maybe he wanted to retire in the city he started with??
@dank
Why are you upset over the signing of Goldy on a 1 year deal? This isn’t the days of the Boss signing a 35 yo to a 5 year deal. It’s a stop gap.I preferred Santana but maybe he didn’t want to come to NY? I’m sure he likely had other suitors as well. Maybe they want Ben Rice to start in AAA?. Maybe they want to keep 1b open for other options in winter 2025 like Valad or Arraez or whomever? relax.
@ Salzilla. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, so this is an objective take. All you did was offer an opinion about players based on their careers not what they are likely to do in 2025. Why is Goldschmidt’s decline overblown? He’s 37 and it probably isn’t, IF you look at the actilual numbers. He’s a HOFer and Santana isn’t, but that and your fantasy teamw mean nothing about 2025. You got your clock cleaned in this little debate.
And just to pile on, the decline can’t be attributed to injuries since Goldschmidt has played 154 games in each of the last two seasons.
I got my clock cleaned for liking a player A more than player B? This wasn’t a fight, clocks don’t get cleaned for differing opinions. I cited why I like the player more. If you tell me I’m wrong that’s where your viewpoint fails because it’s subjective.
Nothing means anything in 2025 because NO ONE CAN PREDICT the future. Not dank, not me, not Cashman. I’ve already stated that, so that’s nothing new if you actually read my posts.
Thats a faulty premise
I would have liked Naylor more than both, but I can’t say Cashman dropped anything because Idont know the whys abd whats. That’s the thing with all of these arguments. None of us are actual GMs and none us have the experience or resources of a Cashman. We attribute way too much to some sort of ineptitude when the reality is there are many factors at play that none us (sports writers either!) are even privy to. We’re just floating words in the ether.
I’m not interested in Naylor either. He’s defensively subpar and the hitting fell off a cliff in the second half. Quality defense and range at first has a spillover effect on the rest of the infield and the pitching staff. With all due respect, I think the Yankees have pursued enough power hitting but otherwise physically limited players to know this isn’t a winning formula.
We both know the team’s true strength is pitching, thanks to Matt Blake’s wizardry. It only makes sense to support the staff with a quality defensive alignment.
I can’t believe there is such an argument over who is better between THESE two players! Who cares! The Yankees signing either is a huge let down. The only worse available 1b option is Bell….thank god it didn’t come down to that or DJ playing first.
Cashman and Hal are killing the Yankees.
You aren’t wrong, Goldy wasn’t my first choice. Honestly of the free agents I would have actually wanted long term, there was only Pete. Otherwise I would have liked to see what a trade could have fetched like Naylor. And further, I thought Walker would have been Cashman’s overall choice and that’s who I had in the contest. But personally I wouldn’t have given him 3 years. So for me, as a player I’ve liked, as detailed, Goldy isn’t terrible on a one year deal. Glad abd Murakami next year are preferred to anyone this year anyway.
But I can’t say after our offseason so far that the FO is killing us. They’ve done a remarkable job pivoting from Soto and spreading that money around. To me (please note that with big asterisk because I’m unflaappable here, and tired of the argument) we are already MUCH better OVERALL (again, note that too, not just in one position) now than in 2024.
*Vlad and Murakami. Left the screen without an edit, par for my course.
This comes down to projecting whether Santana or Goldschmidt will have a better 2025. You’re suggesting the 38 year old with a weight issue and no WAR higher than 2.6 in the last 6-7 years than the younger, very fit guy who has had one bad half season in his career.
But hey, you seem to know better than everyone else.
Why do you care how they compared in 2024? We’re not replaying last season.
I’d love to hear you explain why Santana could rebound around his age 35 season, but Goldschmidt can’t at roughly the same age (on second thought, I don’t want to hear it.)
For the millionth time, the disappearing power, the league average defense, the worsening K and BB rates. He’s declined the past two seasons so this isn’t some half season blip.
I can attribute Santana’s previous dips in production to a series of injuries he suffered in a roughly two week period in April/May 2022. Since that point, he’s been a more or less .750 OPS hitter with excellent defense at first. Goldschmidt’s decline can’t be attributed to health since he’s played 154 games each of the past two seasons.
So save me the projection when the apologists for this signing want to sidestep the stats because they inconveniently reveal that Santana has plateaued and Goldschmidt is in freefall.
A 38 year old Carlos has plateaued? Don’t you have to have had a peak before you plateau?
This has been a great example of cherry-picking stats to come to the conclusion you want. In 2023, Goldschmidt had a WAR of 3.4. By early June of 2024, his WAR was around -0.5. He then rebounded to post a 1.3 for the season. If Goldschmidt had a poor second half in 2024, I’d agree with you. But he didn’t. Paul Goldschmidt has had one terrible three month span in his career. If you want to say he has declined, I guess he’s declined from the 7.0 WAR player he was in 2021-22. He’s around a 3.0 WAR player now. I believe he’ll post better numbers than Santana over the next two years.
The thing is, I don’t call a three month slump followed by a rebound a “steep decline.” To each his own.
Is close to 1800 career hits and 324 home runs not enough of a peak for you? Again, hilarious to think other posters defending the signing implied that I was implacable.
I call be on your alleged war breakdown since none of baseball reference, baseball savant or fangraphs provide a monthly total. Even then, a pace of 1.8 over four months translates to a less than 3 win pace. His second half output, which his proponents are passing off as is his new peak, wasn’t even .800. He shouldn’t be playing 154 games a season anymore.
Perhaps if his walk rate recovers and the Yankees limit his playing time he posts the same win and change as last season in 130 games or so. I think that’s the absolute, best case scenario.
How is this good? The goal in trading naylor was to cut cost right? Didn’t naylor make 10mil? We spent more money for what? Maybe I have my contracts mixed up but doesn’t seem like we have a plan at all othrt than be cheap. Trade kwan while we are at it cause you know they won’t sign him to an extension
No. The goal of the Naylor signing was to get something out of him before he left in free agency. We used to have Naylor. Now we have Cecconi and Santana. Is that better? We will find out. If the Guards can turn Cecconi into something, then the answer is yes.
Dude has an era of over 6.5 and a negative WAR from what I saw. So we got garbage and paid more for it. Santana is a 1 year deal as well so I mean you got a more expensive 1 year deal
Cleveland didn’t even look at his era or war as it would be completely useless to do so.
Speaking of mention mlbtr didn’t even feel like he was worthy of a honorable mention.
Seattle is really missing on everything this year. Looks like Justin Turner for them
Big Santa had a good season, but wow at 12 mil
Reunited and it feels so good. Reunited and it’s understood.
Sing it with passion brother, I’ll hold the mic
Just saw this on X…twitter or whatever you call it
Just call it xwitter.
Or twix
Interesting. The price is the same. Naylor’s more bat than glove, Carlos is more glove than bat, but aside from summing to a similar value for 2022–2024 the chances are much, much better that this is Carlos’s collapse year, while Naylor is the one of the two with a chance to taken a step forward in 2025.
It’s also not as if CLE’s staff is noticeable for producing an inordinate number of balls in play. They K’d more than the Dodgers did, for example, and presumably they’re not bringing Carrasco back in 2025. It’s more like…
“Cleveland Treads Water, Manages to Pick Up Mildly Interesting Lottery Ticket., Doesn’t Think Manzardo is Ready”
In context it’s a poor way to spend $12m when Cleveland could have hung on to Giminez for another year for $10.6 and just let Manzardo play. That’s a much better way to add wins than this swap of modestly talented 1Bman.
@SashaBanksFan That’s better.
I refer to it as twixter.
The M’s have put themselves in a tough spot
Now that is done…… come on Justin Turner!!! You’re our only hope!
Lots of trade options for M’s. And they are willing to pay as evidence of Randy trade.
JT should make them pay extra now.
You mean tight wallet.
We can always bring back Ty France. No worries
Please Nintendo, buy back the team.
Wanted Turner anyway.
Sure you did Batman.
Triston Casas incoming
Betcha they start the season with Raley as the full-time 1B. Because, you know, cheap.
Mountcastle plus (intl bonus money to use on sasaki?) for Castillo
The tiny amount of extra bonus pool money will not help entice Sasaki; he will choose his next team based on many criteria but having an extra $500K or million will not be the difference maker. As for Mountcastle…nah, how about Mayo? I think if Breslow will offer up Casas that would be the best upside play.
That’s was fast
And expensive…
He’s coming off a year at the plate that justifies it .
18 mil would’ve been expensive. 12 mil around what he deserved
Slamtana is back!
You know what they say, third times a charm
More Mariner fan freak-outs in three, two, one…
Yep
Stevil…I’m not freaking out…yet.
Welp! We suck.
Giving up on the off-season already?
No, but man it is tough being a Mariners fan. It would be so different if we were not close, and did not have a really, really, good pitching staff, and to not take advantage of this opportunity and not take the next step by ponying up and paying for some bats. The M’s are getting Gilbert, Kirby, Woo, and Miller for literally nothing. What they are doing, baseball wise, is negligent and criminal. Care more about the city, the fans, the current players on the roster, and want to win.. I really dislike our ownership.
$12MM is quite expensive for a guy like this.
Oh stop it. Six 1b had a War of 3 or more. Vlad, Harper, Freeman and Perez are 1-4. Santana was tired with Walker who just signed for 3/$60. Giving Santana, fresh off a gold glove deal, is a good deal. It’s one that I wished the Yanks had made.
Same exact player as previous years but older yet salary doubles is interesting. Teams severely undervalued him.
This I’d agree with. He got hosed on salaries the past couple seasons.
12MM is like….1.5 WAR max in “expected value”. Its really not much
12 mill is nothing nowadays. Open your mind. Start the reactor.
No it is not. He has more than earned it.
I still do not get people who comment that basically every player is too extensive
He put up a WAR value that in pure equivalency should pay him about $17.5M to $25M for one season.
$12M is extremely fair and a fair price for the team to pay.
How do you value players and why do you want wealthy ownerships to pocket an extra $5-$10M from players who are producing the very product that generates that revenue?
I rarely ever say a player is overpaid. Don’t get me wrong, I am glad for him that he got $12MM. But 1st basemen are always cheaper than any position player. He is 38 or 39 years old so at this point you have to bank on regression. In my opinion he is worth about $7-$8MM. It is very risky with a player of his age, especially considering they just trade Josh Naylor who is going to make the exact same money.
I have tried to type this a million times but pop ups keep messing up the comment section (I’m on my phone) anyway—
Santana has been underpaid for a couple of years now, anything cheaper than Naylor’s arbitration price is a net gain and Goldschmidt set the market at $12.5M with NYY, which is cost effective by any team’s standards on a one year deal.
It’s just market price and a fair one at that.
Smooth move by cleveland
Carlos will be back to his evil ways with his old tm
I see you Carlos Santana with Rob Thomas.
I’m commenting because I just read the Naylor article and refreshed my feed. Upgraded defense at 1st and a pitcher/draft pick for same price.
This is awesome!!!! 40 year old Justin Turner is the only option you have left Dipoto. I’m dying laughing right now! Not that hard to be a GM is it for teams to fill their needs immediately??? But not the super dummy Mariners. When you fans finally get it???
You sound upset
I’m becoming much more amused than upset I have already planned for a new team to root for because I knew they would do nothing this off-season so far it’s coming to pass
I think you should reminisce on all the good times in mariner history. That’ll cheer you up. Think of all the world series they’ve been to. The pennant winning celebrations. Think of record setting 2001 performance.
If that doesnt help, just do what i do. Drink a liter of jack daniels by yourself in a corner until you black out
Key words, “so far”. The off-season is far from over.
It’s over trust me…Dipoto will fail AGAIN! And you know my ideas are exactly what this team needs I could do his job easily
“I could do his job easily” say so many fans who have no experience doing the job.
What were your ideas for third, second, DH, a platoon partner (RHH) for first and at least one reliever with options?
It’s not just having the ideas, either. The other teams have to agree to trades, free agents have to be willing to sign, and ownership has to provide the budget to afford everything.
There are two months left and first base was never a pressing need, so it’s a little weird to me that these first basemen acquisitions are setting people off.
If they have Moore and Bliss as the starting third and second basemen, I’ll worry.
Stevil, you are correct, as almost always. Sadly, it would be very un-Stanton-like to see a any scenario other than your last sentence (unless it’s Shenton instead of Moore). And don’t forget the sunk cost of Haniger at DH. Unless every hitter has a career year, they’ll be good but not in a World Series,,,again.
I’m just saying what I would like to do not saying it would all happen but a scenario that makes reasonable sense and could possibly happen…Resign Turner to platoon with Raley at 1b and Garver at DH sign the posted korean guy Kim to play second and try to make a trade with Baltimore to get a stud young 3b (Mayo) and if you have to give up Woo or Castillo and something else it is what it is sometimes you have to do things that are uncomfortable…Then maybe sign a 4/5 starter and reliever with the extra Castillo savings (if he’s traded)
How about Walker Buehler 2/30 is that fair? We need a lefty in the pen how about AJ Minter for 2/15 and that is the Castillo money…
There isn’t nearly money for all those players.
And they’d be banking on two players for regular roles that have zero, and little, MLB experience and success.
It’s a tough task the front office has.
The biggest surprise of the offseason for me has been the fact that both Mitches are still rostered.
I assumed we would see a bad contact swap, prospects attached, or some other creative trade with cash to move those two, or at least one of them.
Turner Kim and Mayo would cost about 20 mil a year that should be in the budget…
Maybe. But how do you get the replacement pitcher you gave up for Mayo?
Tack on another 10-15m (or more).
Until they clear salary, there’s half that total to work with.
But it’s unlikely to happen anyway for all the other reasons mentioned.
Payroll is around 140m right now. The budget is believed to be somewhere between 150 and 160m, likely right in the middle at 155.
They have three glaring holes, plus additional needs for role players and relievers.
Nothing is simple about this.
Do we need 5 stud starters? We can use Hancock or maybe Evans at #5..
Evans isn’t MLB ready and Hancock currently represents their lone, true reserve starter. Most teams use around 10 in a season. Seattle, luckily, got 161 games from just 6 SPs. Diaz got one spot start. This k they’re likely to pull that off again?
I’ve been saying this since the start of the offseason: they need starter depth. They should be adding pitching, not subtracting.
But think about this for a minute…
If they weaken their rotation to bank on bats with no MLB success, what do you think the odds are of them making the postseason?
There wouldn’t likely be money to buy help at the deadline, either.
I think the odds of that happening are better than rolling out Moore and Bliss all year. Lol…I think they need to try something different they are doing the same thing over and over expecting different results and you know what the definition of that is its not going to kill the team long term to trade a pitcher or take a shot on a few inexperienced guys next year well have more money minus the Mitches. I’m just trying different scenarios
Moore and Bliss have more experience–and success-than those two. Then there’s the money and cost to acquire your targets.
Seattle can’t afford to put both money and their fate on the hopes of unknowns like those, especially for the prices you suggested (or hinted at).
I doubt Mayo is even available, If Seattle end up with a pre-arb player at third, Brett Baty might be more likely.
Stevil you’re killing me a .177 BA at tmobile is not success I don’t care that he won a gold glove he still sucks…Or trade for Acuna and sign Bregman they can suck it up for one year before they dump the mitchwitches
I don’t understand the issue. There is still plenty of time and there are still plenty of options.
It’s almost like some fans forget that ultimately the players decide where they’ll play… blaming Trader Jerry (or any FO, really…) for NOT signing somebody seems like an inadequate perspective.
They have built the park for pitching no hitters want to come here! Don’t you understand that???? Plus they are cheap!! Bad combo! Kirby Cal Gilbert are definitely not signing here
It’s low hanging fruit for folks who are too lazy or who lack the brain power to formulate a better insult. Like people who tell me my screen name checks out.
It’s possible you might be either Dipoto or Hollander because the screen name fits..
That’s correct, we cannot force free agents to come to Seattle. There are many reasons they don’t want to come to Seattle…some things we can change (dimensions of the ballpark, the batters eye) and some things we cannot (always Top 3 in amount of travel required, the marine layer.) We have to trade to get players here so we will see what happens.
Dipoto and Hollander are not responsible for setting the team’s budget or controlling how far the fences are from home plate. Fundamental understanding of what a baseball front office executive may help to redirect the misguided anger that you have toward these people.
Arranged marriages not allowed you mean
Some player will come to Seattle just for the “halibut.” 😉
Orcas they get a great contract offer…
Ok let’s hear some of your options..I think they don’t have many at all..Polanco might be back..
You try having several holes to fill and be told you have 20 million to do it. Ownership ties his hands financially. Thankfully Jerry can draft very well. With this ownership group draft/develop/trade is the only chance seattle has of being good
Prospects are just that…Prospects!!!!
@hllywdjiff You know that every MLB player, every star, every superstar was a…. prospect?
And what percentage of them become above average major league players?
What percentage of what. You have to define what you mean. Top 10? Top 100? Top 1000? College players? Etc. I drafted soto in a keeper league before he even hit top 100 when only top 10-15 prospects were rostered. Its more predictable than u think
It should be pretty clear that he’s talking about all prospects collectively.
And he’s right.
It also goes without saying that the better the prospect, the better the chances of success.
Seattle has exactly two players on the position side of their roster that they’ve developed into successful major-leaguers and one of them is arguably a generational talent.
Fans being skeptical of the Mariner organization being able to develop bats is fair. But maybe we’ll see some (more) hitting prospects traded to address their needs.
Draft/develop/trade is a fine philosophy except the M’s don’t appear very willing to trade players they’ve developed; only minor tinkering. So it’s draft/develop.
To me, the obvious move is to flip Woo for something good before he breaks down, but that doesn’t seem to be on the table..
Josh Naylor in 2024: .243/.320/.456; 118 wRC+; 2.3 fWAR
Luke Raley in 2024: 243/.320/.463; 129 wRC+; 2.3 fWAR
They need a platoon partner for Raley. His numbers were even better the last two months of the season when they started playing him regularly vs. RHPs. He had a 181 wRC+ August through September.
I’d be more worried about third, second and DH. And yes, Turner still makes sense for the DH and 1B vs. LHPs role. They would still need a fourth outfielder who can DH (not named Haniger).
Trades are viable option.
Wow, what a move 39 years young
As somone who’s second team is the Rangers (split my life between Dallas and cle) sometimes I wonder which ownership is worse… But then I remember Texas at least learned to spend to put themselves over the top and got a ring out of it. Something cle will never do. They will always be competitive without winning it all
Riiiiight. As if losing in extra innings of game 7 (which they’ve done twice now) and losing the ALCS after being up 3-1 (tantamount to winning it all that year) PROVES there is no way CLE can ever win it all. Uh-huh.
Fans are rubes, simple as that..
They would have been bent over a table by the dodgers. They would not have won the world series. Championship runs through LA or the mets. They will be competitive no doubt. I compare them to the cowboys in the NFL. They will be in the playoffs, maybe even win a round or two. But they won’t win a championship being the paupers they claim to be.
My issue is bigger though. They won’t keep their home grown talent. Lindor is gone, Manny walked back in the day, and unless their mindset changes, kiss kwan goodbye in 2 years. Bieber stayed but why wouldn’t he. If he’s good, he walks – if he’s trash he has security and stays.
They signed Jose but that’s only because he took a hugggeeee discount to stay, and honestly id love to get his honest feelings on how they spent the money from the generous discount he gave them
I wonder why the Yanks went with Goldschmidt vs trying to trade for Naylor or signing Santana? Seems they were both acquired for very little or similar. Santana is the better glove and is a switch hitter. Would’ve been an easy opportunity to add a lefty bat.
Look at his splits.
Someone suggested the Yankees trading for Ryan O’Hearn. It’s the same reason that they shouldn’t.
I doubt the Orioles will deal with us???
Goldschmidt the better player bigger star doesn’t cost prospects.
Goldschmidt also has excellent power to the opposite field. The other thing people overlook about him is what a good baserunner he is. He’s a big guy (6’3” 225 and muscular) who looks like he’d be slow, but over the last 2 years, he’s 22 for 24 in SB and is excellent first to third.
Yanks want Alonso.
To backup Goldy.
Dang dude! That headline somehow escaped my field of vision today. I need to get with the program.
For the money, the Yankees did much better with Goldschmidt.
Right. The Lesser player in steep decline was their best move. Related to Cashman, are you?
I know you won’t believe this, but you’re going to love Paul Goldschmidt – he hit well in the second half last year and he does so many things well – base running, moving runners over. The fans in Stl and AZ loved him.
Abraxas!
I prefer Santana II
Like Zeppelin the first seven Santana albums are masterpieces.
The live Moonflower is tremendous.
I’ll check that one out! Thank you, I need to spin some Santana, it’s been awhile for some reason. Not cool.
Not sure I understand trading one year of Naylor at $12M for a reliever and a draft pick and then signing Carlos for $12M.
Save no money, get no more years of control, don’t get anyone valuable back. Could’ve traded Naylor at the deadline if out of contention. I’ve always like Carlos Santana. I just don’t understand this.
Simple … Santana is better.
Both are good 1b. Both cost the same. Why not get prospect and draft pick?
They picked up a draft pick and an arm, and for no extra cost now have a better defensive 1B who’s likely to be just as productive at the plate.
Naylor has a $14.2 million salary for 2025 so the Guardians actually clear $2.2 million while adding a win and a half in value. Plus, the gold glove defense further aids their attempts to improve the rotation.
Cleveland really hit a homerun with this series of moves.
They add a win and a half in 2024 performance but Santana is also going to be 39 next season. Currently projections favor Naylor for 2025 so it’s not so clear cut.
I don’t care what the MLBTR summary says, Santana is going to be the short-side platoon to Manzardo at first AND is going to be a defensive replacement for Kyle late in games (Manzardo is a klutz) AND Santana is simple insurance against injury (he’s far more durable than Naylor) AND he’s insurance against Manzardo simply not performing.
Basically, Santana at 39 has a better body than Josh Naylor at 27, so yeah, it does add up.
@Renotribefan Worst of all? Given the trivial return the Guards got for Giminez they could have kept him one more year at $10m, turned 1B over to Manzardo, and gotten more wins, as many as 5 more, versus dumping Naylor and picking up Santana.
He’s signed through 2029, they can’t just keep him for one more year.
If Cleveland kept Gimenez they’d be eating money to get rid of him next year. That was an excellent deal to dump and he’s only producing value from his defense.
I hope Alex Bregman is forced to play in Mexico with Bauer next year.
What? That’s ridiculous. You shouldn’t mention Bregman in the same sentence with low-life Bauer.
All Bauer did was what most young men do: he put it in crazy And he paid an extremely high price for doing so.
Bauer is a cancer. Every organization he’s ever been in couldn’t wait to get rid of him.
While I don’t think Bregman has done anything to be driven out of the MLB, I do think his asking price is insane and just not realistic and would effectively be highway robbery of any team that would agree to a 6 or 7 or 8 or 10 year deal in order for him to reach or surpass his goal of $200M+ in new guaranteed money.
I think Alonso and Bregman are in similar boats- if they dropped their asking prices by a couple million a year and by a couple of guaranteed years, they’d have multiple offers in hand and would simply be choosing who and where they play for, rather than if they’ll get a contract.
I’ll pass on commenting about TB because nobody should want to get that. For Bregman I predict the Jays will sign him to rejoin Springer. Then Atkins trades Bichette to the Twins for Correa, some magic beans and a trash can. World Series guarantee for 2025!
Cherington fails again. Great for Santana!
Cherington got his 1b for 11m less. Nutting approves.
Not quite ready to let Manzardo take over for 1B? One year of Santana at 12 million plus the return from the Naylor trade, Guardians pounced quick. Cleveland always finds ways to develop their players, I really wouldn’t sleep on them.
May never be ready for Manzardo
@Acoss1331 Don’t forget the opportunity cost of dumping Giminez’s $10m salary for Santana’s $12m salary.
Terrible set of moves by Cleveland.
All solid moves for a team destined for consistent competitiveness. Thank goodness fans aren’t running this team.
I loved watching Andres Gimenez play defensively at 2B, but watching his bat was becoming very painful. Cleveland has depth at 2B including Juan Brito, 21 home runs and 40 doubles at Triple A Columbus in 2024 and 2024 overall #1 pick Travis Bazzana. Gimenez was not worth $96M with his bat. Santana’s contract has nothing to do with the savings on Gimenez. Naylor was projected to get between $12 to $14M depending on the site. They just transferred that from Naylor to Santana.
Starting pitching was a huge weakness for the 2024 Guardians, Cleveland acquired two controllable starters and two prospect starters. I like the Luis Ortiz pickup much more than the Cecconi one, but I trust ‘Cleveland’s front office that they see something in him that they can help him improve. Cleveland can’t play in the starting pitching free agent market, so they have to develop their own.
Well, now I gotta ask: What was the point of the Naylor trade? Naylor was gonna cost $12M and they didn’t get much in return for him…
That said- in a vacuum, this is a solid price point and signing.
Good for Santana. He earned this payday.
Both 1b. Both same price. Get prospect and draft pick. If you can get something of value trade a player before free agency.
I really enjoyed his short stint in Minnesota. Guy can still play.
Hope he has a good third stint in Cleveland!
And the dominos continue to fall.
After Goldschmidt it was just a matter of time before deals started happening.
The Gold market dictating assets lol
More like a fool’s gold market
I was thinking similarly. Goldschmidt’s $12.5M w/ NY also set the market quite firmly, hence this nearly identical price point for Santana, a very similar player in quality, age, veteran presence, etc.
What 1st baseman are left? Alonso? Turner? Mets the only team left that will spend , Alonso’s market is gone isn’t it?
Mets will re-sign Alonso.
I hope so
Good for Alonso. Santana to mets would have been great.
Try to get Alonso at a bargain if not trade for 1b.
Not the M’s?
Trades for Yandy Diaz or Lowe from Texas. Seems like Alonso’s leverage is evaporating. That might make him more open to a shorter deal with another team like Seattle or Detroit.
I really do not see alonso going to a small market in the hopes his numbers are better nxt year and that the money will be there next year. Good for him if he does tho, but he culd do it in NY why go to the midwest or the mariners
I agree unless it is a short term overpay.
Yea but i think mets would be willingt do “short term overpay.” Cohen and stearns love that
The only small market team where I could see Alonso going would be Tampa if it traded Díaz, because that’s Alonso’s home town. He could create some excitement there but it’s doubtful it’d be worth it for either side in a minor league park. As a Mets’ fan, I hope Cohen and Stearns bring the polar bear back.
Alonso to WASH OR to KC as part time 1B and DH, Oakland?
LAA has a young LH 1B Nolan Schanuel so Not there
He could hit a lot of HRs in COL but be eliminated from playoffs
by June so I doubt he goes there
Please not to DC. They need more pitching before it is worth spending big FA dollars.
Cleveland:
“Goodbye.” 🙁
“Welcome back!” 🙂
This is a highly intelligent signing by a front office with a clear vision. While $12 million is higher than I expected, the gold glove defense will help to further improve the rotation. Not to mention the team improves by roughly 1.5 wins while clearing out another $2.2 in payroll space. This is how competent front offices operate.
He’s has one gold glove in his whole career, and will be almost 40. It’s more likely he sucks than it is he wins another one.
@dankyank On the contrary. CLE managed to move 4-7 wins making $10m in 2025 salary for next to nothing in trade. They’re idjits.
Only fans see subtraction and no additions. It’s not like no one is going to play first or second base, good grief.
Evidently Goldy was the 1B log jam.
That was quick.
I’m having trouble making sense of this. You trade a younger/better player for a pitcher with a 6.66 ERA, then you sign an old guy hoping to get a productive year out of him-which also costs you more money. Puzzling
So you pay him more than naylor got paid… Way to go idiots smh
Because he is similar value and they wanted a trade return.
Naylor is projected to earn anywhere between $12M to $14.2M depending on the website so no they did not pay him more.
Deep 1B market with players at multiple price points available in FA and trade. So of course that’s the market that GMs clear first.
Cool. Those dominoes dropped quick!
Pete Alonso Micheal Conforto’d himself!
Interesting. The price is the same. Naylor’s more bat than glove, Carlos is more glove than bat, but aside from summing to a similar value for 2022–2024 the chances are much, much better that this is Carlos’s collapse year, while Naylor is the one of the two with a chance to taken a step forward in 2025.
It’s also not as if CLE’s staff is noticeable for producing an inordinate number of balls in play. They K’d more than the Dodgers did, for example, and presumably they’re not bringing Carrasco back in 2025. It’s more like…
“Cleveland Treads Water, Manages to Pick Up Mildly Interesting Lottery Ticket., Doesn’t Think Manzardo is Ready”
In context it’s a poor way to spend $12m when Cleveland could have hung on to Giminez for another year for $10.6 and just let Manzardo play. That’s a much better way to add wins than this swap of modestly talented 1Bman.
The team simultaneously cleared $2.2 million in salary and improved by a win and a half by swapping out Naylor for Santana. Plus, the gold glove defense will have a spillover effect on a rotation they’ve been trying to upgrade all season. Not to mention Gimenez’s steep offensive decline and the glut of young, defense first middle infielders that were already on the 40 man roster.
Chernoff did a fantastic job by simultaneously creating payroll space and improving their overall level of talent.
I am kind of surprised Santana got more than about 8M.
Good for Him!
I wouldn’t be. A 2.5 WAR player in 2024, even one turning 38 is going to make a salary at least 50% of his 2024 value
Jack, Gimenez;’s salary jumps to 15M the following year and then three more years at $23.5M. With his questionable bat, he would be much harder to find trade partners and the return would have been a lot less.
……as an afterthought, after today’s news where does this leave the Boras clients? It looks like the chairs are filling quickly and the music is about to stop.
that’s what I’m wondering too…
Will the Mets bail out Pete? Will they take him on a one year pillow contract?
Don’t do it, Stearns!!!
Last year’s “Boras 4” (Bellinger, Montgomery, Chapman, and Snell) could be this year’s “Boras 3” Alonso, Bregman, and Burnes. Teams don’t want to pay for multiple years of a player’s decline. Makes sense to me.
I’m interested in what Cleveland sees in the pitcher they acquired. Knowing them they’ll turn him into something pretty good.
If so, this combination of moves is really nice.
Amazing low walk rate is a great foundation. He used to hit high 90s max. Great slider so could end up in pen and be good great. But with some change up improvement could be a starter. His 2024 role and home away splits are interesting. Sss but interesting.
Traded Naylor and replaced him with a corpse.
And yet that 39-year-old corpse has a better body than the guy who is 27.
OYE COMO VA ! His song plays on.
Naylor traded, Santana to Cleveland, and Goldy to Yankees… Mariners better sign JT before there’s nobody left…
Mariners will likely trade for Casas or Yandy. A little birdy just told me not to worry.
Nope we aren’t giving up front end starters under cost Controlled contracts when pitching is worth MORE than Offense in Seattle and our cheap arse Ownership…
How is almost 40 year old Santana better than Naylor??
Elite defense and strong at bats. Doesn’t have to be better. Doesn’t have to be the same. Just has to be close enough. They wanted prospect draft pick.
They are both fairly rotund but Naylor has packed on the pounds and his gut will get in the way. He may be only 27 years old but all that extra weight can add years to the swing. Although Santana is also a large man, in order to be a successful athlete at his age he must be doing something right.
Again, Scott Boras is overplaying his hand with Alonso. Goldschmit, Walker, and now Santana. Alonso is not going to be happy
It was Pete who got greedy and had no idea how the market valued bad def 1Bmen turning 30.
Pete didn’t do his homework and it may cost him $50m, even $100m.
If Pete couldn’t do his own homework, then somebody who cares about him should have done it for him…like his wife or even better, his agent.
In essence, Cleveland traded Naylor for Santana, a former high draft pick SP prospect with MLB experience, and a comp pick. Thats a big organizational win long term.
But the real question is does this make the Guardians a better team in 2025…and thats iffy. Santana had a very good season in 2024, but it was far better than anything he had done since 2019. What’s the odds that he can repeat it at age 39?
Cecconi is the wild card. He has never shown anything but potential, but he is the exact type of pitching acquisition that Cleveland targets. While the thought is that the Cleveland pitching factory automatically makes an acquisition better, that isn’t always so. Several young starters have failed once obtained by the Guardians…Peyton Battenfield, Connor Pilkington, Tobias Myers, the first Logan Allen.
But IF Santana has a season generally equal to Naylor, Arizona could have just signed Santana, while saving a pitching prospect and a high draft pick.
A word on Carlos Santana…
He was the undisputed leader of the Cleveland clubhouse in his last go around there. He is beloved there. He may be the only player in baseball that could replace Naylor without the team being upset.
One thing to consider is that the signing helps fill the RH-hitting void of not having David Fry through the first 3 months.
However, no longer is there a cleanup hitter. Not currently, anyway.
@CATS44 By ignoring the Giminez salary dump, a projectable 5 wins in 2025 for $10m, you’re all leaving out the most important part of Cleveland’s offseason.
With the light, light prospects they got for Andres, Cleveland’s FO could have easily traded him next offseason. He’s prime age and his deal only runs through his age 31 season. He’s an infinitely better addition than, say, Bregman, and he’s been worth more the last 3 years by bWAR than Kyle Tucker—and he’s 2 years younger.
The biggest need for Cleveland this off season was starting pitching.
They signed Bieber for $10 mil this season and an additional $4 mil due next year.
They traded Gimenez $10 mil this season, and got a viable MLB SP in return, plus two mid level pitching prospects. That’s not a light, light prospect package, esp when you throw in the fact that Toronto takes on nearly $100 mil in salary.
Now the Naylor-Santana combo.
Cleveland’s off season so far has been basically cost neutral, and they have gained three MLB SPs, two SP prospects, two CF prospects, a comp draft pick, and about $90 mil in future financial flexibility.
The cost for all this has been the best defensive 2B in baseball, two middle relievers, and whatever the difference there is between Naylor and Santana.
Cleveland no longer has a rotational depth problem.
And the equation isn’t Santana vs. Naylor, it’s Santana/Manzardo vs. Naylor. I don’t believe for one minute Santana is going to be an every day player. They are going to use him as a short side platoon at first, a defensive replacement late in games, and DH from time to time. That’s the way you keep Carlos fresh at 39 and maximize his contributions.
High draft pick? I thought the balance pick was between round 3-4. Most rounds other than round one take years to get to the biga normally no?
The pick Cleveland recieved will be around #70 after everything shakes out. They also have the one two ahead of it.Thats between the second and third rounds.
I agree with this 100% as the future returns and ease of filling 1st base clearly outweighs keeping Naylor… 1st base isn’t 3rd Base by a Long Shot
It’s interesting to see how other teams operate (I’m a Blue Jays fan). We’ve seen a bunch of teams in recent days make pivots when something happened that affected them, usually within a day or two – Boston getting Crochet, Yanks signing Fried and Goldy, Astros signing Walker, D-Backs trading for Naylor, Guards getting Santana. The Jays don’t get someone they chased, and they just sit around and don’t pivot. It’s like they’re hoping something will just fall into their lap.
You got a first hand look at how other teams operate when Cleveland dumped Gimenez on you. They got his best cheapest years you get the expensive ones and hope his speed doesn’t fall off. They trade Naylor for nice arm and draft pick and instantly replace him. Front office master class.
In my opinion, Alonzo is to blame for Alonzo not signing just as Bregman could be blaming himself shortly for not taking the money offered from the team they want to go to vs the highest bidder. Bregman to the Yankees, Redsox or Mets (maybe Tigers) if the price falls but where does he actually want to be? Same question to Alonzo, if he wants to be a Met, then what’s the best offer they will give him? If I’m Bregman I’m asking the Yankees for their best offer and then comparing years and annual $. I wonder if he realizes the best chance for a World Series and to stick it to Houston is to join the Yankees. All told, he would be a great addition and fit and is the remaining piece to complete the Yankees off season. I tip my cap to Cashman and Steinbrenner for what they have done so far and think they should go get Bregman on a 4yr max deal as icing on the cake if possible.
That’s completely absurd.
Neither is worth what they allegedly asked. Either settle for less, hope some team is stupid and pays what you want, or get left with no chair.
I don’t think the Yankees want Bregman and certainly not at the price he’s asking for- and if the Yankees and him had mutual interest as a player and a team, they would absolutely low ball him and he would absolutely demand something reaching record breaking and therein lies the impasse that is likely insurmountable in a hypothetical Bregman-Yankees union.
Agreed on Bregman and the Yankees not being aligned on a contract and most likely won’t match up. Perhaps a trade for Hayes materializes or we go with O Cabrera and pray for the best. Not sure there is much else worth getting as an upgrade.
I agree, An early 80’s Yankees fan!
Alonso and Bregman got very fair extension offers from their respective home teams, but they both were greedy and felt like they were being low balled.
I also understand that it is logical to assume that any initial offer by a club was made with the club feeling like they’d be getting surplus value if the player accepted that offer, meaning it was a hometown discount and they could get more on the open market or if their club was forced to match competing offers once free agency kicked in.
That said, they call it ‘betting on yourself’ because it’s still a bet to turn down a relatively massive extension offer, bird in hand, hoping for two in the bush.
Obviously it worked out for someone like Juan Soto and will likely work out for Vlad, Jr.- but that’s not always the case
Betting on yourself doesn’t always work out, as we are likely seeing with Bregman and Alonso.
Sometimes fair market value is the result in the end. In Sotos case I don’t believe it was fmv but an overpay (but this is subjective)which also sometimes is the result. Perhaps a team pays Bregman 200 mill for 7yrs but if he was offered a year shorter and 200 million was the driving factor and by that result missing out or pricing out of the teams he truly wants to play for then at some point is this not on the player to decide to take the money or go to the team they want. It’s easy for us to say since we’re not I. Their shoes and 160 vs 200 million is an argument that the everyday person can’t seem to digest or feel sympathy for. So you get one yr less and maybe sign another 1-2 yr contract and who knows if the annual would be the same in 6 yrs from now for a late 30s player. I would like like to see players sign with the teams they want to play for vs losing out on that team for money and going to some irrelevant team and be buried in nowhereville.
For most players, the team they really want to play for is the one that gives them the biggest and longest contract. They are mercenaries, ( nothing wrong with that ), and mercenaries don’t care where they do there thing.
There are very few exceptions.
Jose Ramirez is one.
The Players Association generally frowns upon players signing below market value, because higher contracts beget even higher contracts.
Greedy? You betcha. But free enterprise has always been driven by greed.
There isn’t a reader of this web site that wouldn’t seriously consider a job offer that exponentially increased his and his entire family’s financial situation.
Anyone turning down 200Million needs their head examined…
From sometime around June 23- to may/June24 Naylor was top 10 players in the game. He cooled off big time in the 2nd half.
Was Cleveland gonna get 30/100 from him again? Will Santana/Manzanardo/Noel give them that? Maybe…
Theoretically Slade just needs to be better than 3War to “win” the trade.
So I’m guessing trading Naylor got them a SP and pick, but moreso opens a spot to get Mazardo a mentor more than anything in Santana?
Guards fans, would this be a correct read on these two moves?
Is Naylor not a good mentor? Santana certainly is. If they thought Manzardo was a sure thing they wouldn’t block him. I haven’t seen him since Tampa but I wouldn’t bet on him being as good as Naylor Santana. So unless they improved him he’s just a guy.
I’m just trying to find the reasoning behind the two moves. I thought they really liked Manzardo. I guess it’s really just get something out of Naylor because Manzardo is their future, but they aren’t quite ready to fully commit to him yet.
Manzardo might be just a guy. I haven’t seen him since his Tampa days but I wasn’t impressed then. Tampa knows what they are doing a bit right? You need injury depth. Dh. Service time is important. Not need to rush when a Santana is just sitting there. Santana Naylor same. So they picked up a nice arm and draft pick for free. Cleveland does this all time. You have to if you want to win as a small market.
I looked at his data. Hit hard hit is fine nothing exciting. Walks way too low with his hrs. K’s way too high his average. Defense can’t contend with Santana unless something crazy happened. Slow slow runner. He can be a lower strike out high average 20 hr 1b only. Didn’t hit LHP. If Santana goes down hey awesome to have this guy sitting here. As other players get more expensive in arbitration or you need to sign a pitcher hey glad we have this guy. But if trying to go all in on winning this year Santana is the guy you want. Rest days, pinch hitting, dh. There’s playing time hopefully.
@salzilla
Nah. Don’t listen to those who keep repeating that Santana is Cleveland’s first-baseman. It’s a Santana-Manzardo platoon, pure and simple, with Carlos being a late inning defensive replacement when Kyle starts. CLE knows better than to wear down a 39 year old. They’ll keep him fresh by lowering his workload and using him in a manner which maximizes his contributions. He’s excellent insurance against underperformance by Manzardo or Noel.
Manzardo will see many at bats at DH with the David Fry injury. Santana provides a Fry replacement for the first two or three months as well as insurance in case Manzardo struggles at all. Manzardo is definitely in Cleveland’s plans for 2025.
I think its more that Cleveland plans on seriously contending and NEEDED starting pitch, not only for opening day, but for depth over 162 games and playoffs. They’ve added three.
They are happy with Manzardo, but without a veteran presence to go with Ramirez, Thomas, and Kwan it would be much more difficult to contend.
As it now stands, Cleveland will have at least six starters that are either rookies or have no more than one full year in MLB.
Black Magic Woman back in Cleveland for a third and final(?) Tour of duty
The competition for Rizzo must be intense.
Where are the Pirates fans who were pining for any number of signings this off season, with signing Santana looked upon as the most viable option?
Here’s a suggestion to MLBTR staff: do some digging to reveal logical conclusions as to Bob Nutting’s profit margins. Then examine the moves made this off season. Keep in mind the Pirates had a pitching staff that would be the envy of most clubs. All ownership and the GM had to do was add some pieces to guys like Reynolds and Cruz
Instead, they’ve subtracted
Is the idea to tank? Is the idea to scuttle the ship for even more profit?
Is there a worse owner in all of sports? A worse GM?
Pirates filled 1b with what’s his name.
Might be worst owners. At least you never see or hear from Nutting. When you do it’s like seeing bigfoot.
Tons of worse gms. Cherington is upper middle of the pack. Just Pittsburgh needs top 5.
Can’t wait for the Mariners to sign Richie Sexon…
Back to back to back 1B deals.
Alonso next?
Alonzo leverage is dropping as more and more teams drop out of 1st base market. They may have over played his hand.
clearly the writer didn’t do his due diligence; naylor is an injury waiting to happen and because his defense is so poor his WAR for 2024 was only 1.5 while santana posted a 2.5 WAR in 2024. so not only could the team get more WAR out of the 1B position for the same money, cecconi is the centerpiece of the deal. arizona doesn’t have much history developing starting pitching while CLE is one of the best in MLB at doing so. if the coaching staff can teach him a two seamer to replace the indifferent four seamer the way they did for kluber, he’s at the very worst a middle of the rotation starter under control until 2030. and the FO loves pitchers with the kind of spin rate cecconi has shown.
They were worried about how fat and outta shape Josh was by end of season.
I may be in the minority as a “Guards fan but I really don’t see how this makes it better for us. Yes, we are getting better defensively on paper. One thing you can’t change is Santana is 39. Decline could be really sharp at 39.. like over a cliff sharp. Would I want him over Goldy? Yes. Cleveland has always had this bring back a guy mentality. They did this so many times with Francona (with Bryan Shaw…. oh he is doing that in Cincy now). I am ready for the new Guards and fresh blood here. It’s the same reason I didn’t want Bieber back either. You could in theory not signed either and went after a big impact bat. I mean you did this, and you still need an impact bat. Would I rather have, say Santander instead of Santana and Bieber? Yes. Now, Santander can’t play defense, but we know what his offensive numbers will be, and we need offensive numbers. It’s to me a step forward and one back. I mean if we don’t add another pitcher (aka Fedde, Matz type) and another impact bat, this has not been a good trade-off.
Santander is just as prone to a steep decline in performance as Santana is.
So which teams are still interested in Pete Alonso at this point, except the Mets?
Good signing for the Indians.
Cleveland dumped Gimenez’ salary, make no mistake about that. The net of SP from Pittsburgh was target. They can, sort of, cover loss of Gimenez’ in house. Cheaper. I will miss Gimenez’ hustle and beautiful glove. He followed Ramirez’ lead and busted his rear. I will miss that.
Naylor was Sgt. at Arms. Psycho dude with big bat, and clutch too. Never ‘looked the part’ but played well for Cleveland. Maybe aging and body build does him in. Santana a one-year fill as Manzardo gains responsibility. Hopefully he is good enough but TB usually doesn’t miss and they traded him away. I don’t count on Noel at 1B.
Next to go is Thomas IF Cleveland can get solid (cheaper) SP and or OF
Thomas has value to several teams but Cleveland sees cost first.. Maybe he stays, but I cannot see available stud OF (except Garcia, Texas) that would help and fit. Gonna cost an arm, but not arm and leg. Maybe Brennan and a MiLB pitcher with promise.
Re: Goldy, Damn good move for NY. One year, affordable cost. Goldy will work hard to have rejuvenated season, and likely will. Plus Arenado might now consider NY as destination. Neithr at level of 4 years ago but still veteran pros. NY doing okay in this pursuit.
AL Central still not really strong. 13 games vs ChiSox should give chance to be 7 over .500. But Naylor will be missed as he smashed Chicago pitching.
Seemed like it anyway.
Det, KC nearing challenge but benefit from ChiSox games also. Minne stuck in limbo. Detroit most dangerous but others are cash strapped. At this point , Cleveland /Detroit is the race.
Throw a hat over all the teams in the AL Central, but I see it as between Minnesota and Cleveland, basically, as it has been for awhile now.
And Cleveland doesn’t “see cost first” it sees value first. There’s a huge difference, a distinction fans fail to make.
Santana is making Goldschmidt money. Shows you what a Yankee discount to don pinstripes looks like.
Huh? They both basically got market value for their services. I realize $12M in NY and $12M in Ohio ain’t the same, but in overall baseball terms, they were of similar current value and historical performance levels and both got a fair price, especially in a slightly deflated market for first basemen, a position that has seen its overall relevance and value plummet in recent years.
I have a question that’s nagged at me about this:
Goldschmidt set the market for veteran first baseman power hitters looking for one year deals around their age-40 season, at $12.5M…
Why did Santana agree to $12M and not push for that extra $500k to match Goldschmidt? Assuming Goldschmidt’s deal was announced or known of internally prior to Santana and the Guardians coming to an agreement? Did Santana not care about the extra $500k, was it not discussed?
Point noted. That supports the statement I made earlier about players wanting to play for certain teams. Santana in Cleveland just feels right like he has come back home. Obviously 500k is very different than the 35-40 million difference that Bregman is looking at.
The difference is pretty negligible… if anything though, I think it is surprising that Goldy didn’t get a bigger deal. Not only is he younger but he was the NL MVP just a few seasons ago. He’s really just coming off of a single bad offensive season and has a much higher upside.
I love carlos santana, even before he played for the buccos, great guy, funny leader, and does great every where he goes (except KC)