Earlier this offseason, the Cardinals declined an offer from the Yankees that could’ve sent Marcus Stroman to St. Louis for Nolan Arenado, according to a report from Mark Feinsand, John Denton and Bryan Hoch of MLB.com. It’s unknown whether Arenado would have approved that trade. MLB.com reports that the Cardinals never brought it to the star third baseman because they were uninterested in acquiring Stroman.
That’s not to say that talks between the clubs on Arenado are finished. The Yankees still have needs at both corner infield positions. Feinsand, Denton and Hoch report that they’re showing increased interest in Paul Goldschmidt at first base. They write that signing Goldschmidt might make Arenado more likely to waive his no-trade clause to join his former teammate as a corner infield tandem in the Bronx.
Various reports have tied the Yankees to Goldschmidt throughout this week. It seems they’ll turn to one of the short-term free agent options to upgrade first base. Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic reported on Thursday that the Yankees were increasingly likely to pursue a more affordable first baseman than to spend at the top of the market for Pete Alonso or Christian Walker. Walker, whom the Yankees had reportedly preferred to Alonso, has subsequently come off the board on a $60MM deal to Houston.
Interestingly, Goldschmidt’s asking price could itself prove a sticking point. Most predictions, MLBTR’s included, assumed he’d sign a one-year deal as he enters his age-37 season. Feinsand, Denton and Hoch report that Goldschmidt is seeking multiple years. That doesn’t guarantee he’ll find a two-year deal, of course, which would be a lofty ask coming off a middling season.
Goldschmidt hit .245/.302/.414 with 22 homers during his final year in St. Louis. He posted career-worst strikeout and walk rates with overall offense that measured exactly league average. Goldschmidt had a better second half after a dismal start to the season, but the overall numbers are worrisome given his age. MLBTR felt he’d secure $15MM on a one-year deal.
Money is also a complicating factor on Arenado. Even if the Yankees signed Goldschmidt and Arenado were willing to play there, they’d still need to find an agreeable return with St. Louis. The Cardinals owe the eight-time All-Star $64MM over the next three seasons, while the Rockies are on the hook for another $10MM between 2025-26. (Colorado’s obligations would carry over in the event of a trade.) $12MM of the Cardinals’ $64MM is deferred. MLB.com writes that the net present value of what St. Louis owes is around $60MM.
The Cardinals are trying to shed at least the vast majority of that deal. Katie Woo and Chandler Rome of The Athletic reported that the Astros would’ve absorbed around $45MM had Arenado not vetoed the proposed trade to Houston earlier this week. ESPN’s Jeff Passan reported differently, writing that Houston would have taken $59MM. In either case, the Cardinals would have shed most of the money.
Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch wrote this afternoon that the extent of the Yankees’ interest in Arenado depends on how much of the deal the Cardinals would cover. While it’s not known how much the Yankees want St. Louis to eat, their proposal of Stroman would’ve been a financial counterbalance. The righty will make $18MM next season and would trigger a matching player option for 2026 if he throws 140 innings. An Arenado/Stroman swap would’ve gotten the Cardinals off the hook for the former’s salaries in 2026-27, but it would not have represented a significant cut next season.
Arenado has a $32MM salary next year, $5MM of which is Colorado’s responsibility. Another $6MM is deferred, so the immediate savings for St. Louis would only have been $3MM. The Cardinals could have tried to flip Stroman themselves. The righty is coming off a 4.31 ERA over 154 2/3 innings. His salary is above market but not egregiously so, but it doesn’t seem the Cardinals had any interest in that sequence of moves.
A player’s competitive balance tax number resets if they’re traded. Assuming the NPV on Arenado’s contract is around three years and $60MM, he’d carry an approximate $20MM luxury tax hit for an acquiring team if the Cardinals did not eat any money. RosterResource calculates New York’s luxury tax number around $287MM. Signing Goldschmidt or taking most of Arenado’s contract would push them beyond the $301MM final tax tier. Doing both would vault them well beyond $301MM, which comes with a 110% tax on every dollar spent from that point.
DarrenDreifortsContract
Are the Cardinals going into full rebuild mode?
Rsox
Maybe. They haven’t had much success trying to keep the contention window open by trying to fuse young and aging players together the past few years so maybe they are looking to hit the reset button and just let the kids play and see whats there for the next competitive cycle
John Madden’s neck coochie
No. They’re not even trying to rebuild. They’re treading water until Mozeliak is gone and they’re going to fire Marmol and try to pull an Orioles/Guardians.
They’re a small market team now. They dug themselves in too deep with the Stadium/BPV and now the regional cable money is gone and they’re F*****d.
stlcardsblues
The team is not in financial ruins. They cry poverty but are still extremely profitable. Dewitt was slow to change outdated business models. Now they are trying to use the rebuilding of their minor league development staff as an excuse to cover up they still refuse to increase payroll to current industry trends.
BITA
I truly think they are using this minor league development talk to cover for the fact that ticket sales are way down and the team is making less money. I think thats the problem people are not going to games and spending money and now the team has less to spend.
Raymond Flagstaff
inflation is a beast. i would suspect a lot of teams are worried about this issue
case
If both players rebound Stroman would be more useful at the trade deadline, a lot of playoff teams might be set at 3b but more SP is always a good bet.
Salzilla
lolz, I mean you have to give Cash credit for trying. I’d have said no, too!
But now we know, Nolan was/is in the crosshairs for sure. How’re we feeling about that? Who would it take? I’d give up Clarke.
Rsox
I think it’s more interesting that the Yankees keep targeting RH bats (Bellinger aside) and not trying to play to their ballparks strengths
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
They’ve traded for belly, jazz, Soto
Cashman tries to replenish the lefties
Salzilla
I don’t disagree, but most of the decent available players are righties right now.
top jimmy
Santana is a switch hitter and IMO a better option than Goldschmidt at 1B. I think Polanco, assuming his medicals clear from his offseason knee surgery, is a good rebound candidate for 3B or 2B. His LH bat would play very well at Yankee Stadium.
Raymond Flagstaff
Santana is a better option than goldy? what universe is that in, i’d like to know which one im in now because it seems to keep changing these days
Mynameisnoname
Can’t give up Clarke. Clarke had an ERA under 3 and has a similar cutter value and shape as Burnes. If he ever learns not to overthink sequence, watch out.
Arenado like Bellinger had due to money owed vs fWAR, has negative trade value. Depth prospect only, maybe Warren if you’re taking the bulk of the money.
Gil was likely ticketed for the bullpen and was given his last chance to start in ST games out of circumstance opposed to initial plans after a long injury layoff. He could be back on the IL any moment now- really thought they should have leveraged his peak value (29) and change for Tucker (31).
Anyway, if you ignore the value gap sending off Clarke you have to consider that would thrust Stroman into a SP role, likely triggering his IP option year- handcuffing a potential move next off-season. Don’t force it. Stroman for Arenado made sense, otherwise you’re trading cost controlled value for glove first fading star being paid like a no. 3 hitter.
BITA
Stroman for Arenado makes no sense for the Cardinals. None.
Mynameisnoname
I was talking from the Yankees side as he mentioned Clarke, but Clarke has much more value than Stroman.
And it makes some sense for the Cardinals as well. 60 mil/3 years vs 36 mil/2 years does save money and limit the commitment time. Comparative players as well. Not enough to pull the trigger in Mo’s eyes, but there is absolutely logic in the discussions.
BITA
There is no logic in the Cardinals acquiring Stroman. He’s old and overpaid and the team doesn’t need another starter.
Mynameisnoname
So is Arenado. I’m guessing Cash thought they may opt to save some AAV and shave off a year on a bad contract for bad contract.
Mo said no, but you’re acting like there wasn’t credence to the thought. But getting HOU to eat almost all of it is obviously a much better result if that circles back successfully.
Ultimately, St. Louis had a negative run differential and an expected W/L record well under .500 last year, while the NL is pretty stacked looking forward. With a rebuild around the corner cutting any years and $ makes plenty of sense. And the StL rotation could definitely use another arm. After Gray it’s dreadful.
BITA
Arenado had a solid year last year. Stroman did not. Stroman isn’t projected to be in the Yankees starting rotation.
I dont think you know anything about the Cardinals.
TB Sox NY
I would love it financially if the Yankees took on both salaries.Both on a decline and expensive.I love it.
Raymond Flagstaff
but its short and won’t hurt them in any way, so hold your joy
Floyd Rayford's cat
Doesn’t make any sense for the Cardinals! They’re looking to save money and get younger
buns cherington
arenado for stroman would have saved them money and made them younger
Floyd Rayford's cat
What? They want prospects, not 34 year old expensive relievers!
TB Sox NY
If i am the Cardnials i ask for Dominguez.Then eat some salary for the Yankees benefit.
LakeersYanksChiefs
Dominguezyou cards fans are funny
Salzilla
No chance that would ever happen.
nowheredan
Why not Judge AND Dominguez?
pt57
Only if the Yankees pay down Judge’s salary.
Rsox
I don’t blame them for balking at Stroman as he would have been a salary dump for the Yankees to even things out. I do think a package with Schmidt or Gil with either Cabrera or Peraza and at least one or two other minor leaguers would probably be more to the Cardinals liking.
LakeersYanksChiefs
omg you must be out of your damn mind if you think arenado is worth anything close to that omg im dying laughing
Rsox
You think the Cardinals are just going to gift him to Cashman for a signed late-career Derek Jeter Baseball card?
rct
“You think the Cardinals are just going to gift him to Cashman for a signed late-career Derek Jeter Baseball card?”
He’s expensive and probably a 2 WAR/season player from here on out. A league average bat. He’s not exactly a gift, which is why the Cardinals are trying to dump him.
Raymond Flagstaff
theyre dumping him to save money knowing they can’t expect to compete at the moment. 2 WAR is valuable and somewhere around 20 million is not absurd to pay for such a thing. He will likely be better than league average bat for a few more years imo
vikingbluejay67
Why not? The Rockies did.
Salzilla
I’d give up one of those, but not Gil, for Arenado. A large chunk of money is coming back this way, too, so player wise I don’t think it’s going to take more than one or at most one and very low minor leaguer.
El Kabong
What would be a reasonable Yankees offer for an Arenado/Helsley package?
Salzilla
I love Helsey, but with Williams here now that isn’t a trade I’d try to make if I were Cashman.
El Kabong
Oops. I forgot about Williams. That would be a heckuva bullpen, though. Deep and deadly in October.
RobblyDobs
Arenado, Helsley, Chase Davis (2023 1st rounder) for Dominguez. Cards might also have to kick in some cash or lottery prospects.
Yanks won’t want to trade Dominguez but this ticks a few boxes for them.
top jimmy
Stroman would instantly be the #3 starter in the Cards rotation. And Stroman only has one year left on his contract, so it’s ridiculous to say his salary “evens out” with Arenado’s.
BITA
Stroman sucks he would not be the Cardinals number 3 and his contract is far worse than Arenados even if it’s only for 2 years.
Raymond Flagstaff
saying stroman sucks is buffoonery. do better
Bochys Retirement Fund
I think the Cardinals would rather just spend Arenado’s contract two times over before adding someone like Stroman
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Nah, St. Louis could simply DFA Stroman, then some other team (probably) would sign him for the league minimum.
Raymond Flagstaff
you know they still would have to pay him, right?
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Raymond
Of course, but he said the Cardinals would rather spend $128 million than take Stroman. But they could cut Stroman at a cost of only $37 million so Bochy’s statement is, if taken literally, false.
Raymond Flagstaff
oh i didnt realize you were arguing against something silly.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Yup, I probably should have just ignored it as obvious hyperbole
Raymond Flagstaff
trolls are so successful because we often just think its an innocent dummy and when we try to help we suddenly experience the regret of having to deal with their juvenile behavior. slippery slope!!
top jimmy
Arenado is not an asset anymore. With that contract and his declining production with age, he has become a liability. Why do you think the Cards are trying to move on from him?
BITA
The Cardinals are trying to trade him because he wants to be traded knucklehead. Not because he isn’t any good.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
You are both wrong.
Arenado is a nice asset. Just not worth $64 million over three years. I am sure the A’s would have paid half that amount in a heartbeat.
And the Cardinals are not trying to trade him just because he wants it, they also want to cut payroll.
I am sure you both know those things, but it is not the way your posts are phrased.
BITA
The Cardinals are cutting payroll by not bringing back Goldschmidt, Lynn and Gibson.
He is worth his contract. You are wrong.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
BITA
“The Cardinals are cutting payroll by not bringing back Goldschmidt, Lynn and Gibson.” True, no disagreement here. I think they would be happy to cut more.
“He is worth his contract. You are wrong.” He is “worth” what another team is willing to pay on the open market. I don’t think $64 million over three years will fetch a suitor without it being bought down. I concede that he is a borderline hall of famer, but his bat markedly declined in 2024.
Raymond Flagstaff
people always go to the one extreme or the other, with almost everything. for some reason they have a mental block against the middle way… sad but true
BITA
It’s got deferred money the value is more like 60 million that is stated in the article.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #BannedForBeingABaseballExpertAGAIN)
I hope Mozeliak blocked the Yankees number at that trade proposal. I don’t know how the Yankees keep getting away with this robbery. They trade their worst players that they don’t want for allstars. Cash has been doing this for years. Yet, David Stearns is hitting on his couch right now with a toothpick in his mouth bragging about signing Jacob Young, Chris Williams, Griffin Canning and Anthony Goose. What are we doing here? Yankees missed out on Soto and they proceeded to get Fried, Bellinger, and Devin Williams. They are still going after great players. Shows what an A+ organization the Yankees are and how dysfunctional of a franchise the Mets are. A rotation of Senga, Peterson, Blackburn, Canning, Holmes, and Montas. World Series, here we come! The Dollar Tree David Way!
Reyday
Give the man a break Jesus!! After last years run and the fact it’s still only mid/late December, he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Raymond Flagstaff
sheesh what a whiner
Ben K
That’s like a bad fantasy trade you know as a manager is gonna get shot down as you send off the offer.
hiflew
OK,Rockies offer Kris Bryant for Stroman NOW!
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Angels offer Anthony Rendon for Stroman NOW!
YankeesBleacherCreature
He’s got a full NTC and likes California and sometimes likes playing baseball.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Bryant has $108 million to go
Rendon has $77 million to go
Stroman only has $37 million to go and at this point is the most useful player of the three
Yankees can just cut Stroman and hope a team wants him at the minimum so that Yankees save a million a year
YankeesBleacherCreature
If Stroman was a free agent, he’s probably signing for one year at $12+ given that Frankie Montas is worth $17. No reason to DFA him.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
There is no doubt in my mind that Stroman is less of a risk on a one year deal than say Soroka at $9 million. But there do not seem to be any teams that want to touch him. Stroman is actually a great guy in the community and he was received ok in the Cubs clubhouse, but when he went after management for not giving him an extension, he burned his bridges. He was lucky the Yankees got him. But a team like the Cardinal will not want him.
Raymond Flagstaff
stroman sitting out during the psychopathy inflicted on us always sat the wrong way with me
BITA
Two Cardinals Yankees trade proposals
Arenado
Nootbaar
For
Dominguez
LeMahieu
Or
Arenado + 10 million or so
For
Lombard Jr
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Arenado and $17.5 million in cash for
Griffin Herring.
With St. Louis, he would be a “red herring”
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I now think $17.5 million is too much. Arenado gets $74 million but Colorado pays $10 million for a net of $64 million. Including $13 million in case would bring Arenado to three years at $51 million. I could see that. The problem is that Arenado has a no-trade clause and really only the Mets, Yankees and Angels could use him. Someone is going to sign Bregman, whether it is a long term deal (likely) or a high AAV deal with opt-outs (unlikely but not impossible).
vtadave
Yankees also looking to sign Rafael Furcal at this point
BlueSkies_LA
He’s still available.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Furcal and Kershaw were teammates, blast from the past.
El Kabong
Furcal’s arm strength at age 47 is probably still better than Volpe’s.
norcalblue
All the “Dodger fans” wanting Arenado in LA should read and reflect. Seriously, why do you want this guy.l? He’s a shadow of the player you think he is and he comes with enormous baggage, including an albatross salary obligation. Max is a better hitter, without the financial baggage. Let’s move on and address real needs.
BITA
He’s a 3 win player who probably would play better in a better environment. I agree the Dodgers don’t need to do something but I would take him over Muncy. His contract is not an albatross that’s just not true.
BlueSkies_LA
No reason they’d have to take him over Muncy. None at all.
BITA
Are you the one that keeps saying they can play Muncy at 2b? That’s fine with me the Cardinals don’t need Muncy and he has to play somewhere.
BlueSkies_LA
Don’t hurt your finger scrolling or anything. Yes, I’m the one who “keeps saying” that Muncy can go back to the position he played for years.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
There is no way the Dodgers would touch Arenado unless it got them Helsley or Gray in the deal.
BITA
You don’t know what you are talking about. Arenados contract is not bad. With the referrals it has a real time value of about 60 million remaining for 3 years. That’s not bad at all.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Did you watch Muncy in the post-season, oh yeah.
mlb.com/news/max-muncy-reaching-base-safely-postse…
2024 regular season OPS Muncy 0.852, Arenado 0.719. Muncy had 15 homers in 237 at-bats, Arenado had 16 homers in 578 at-bats.
BITA
I will take Arenado. He plays good defense and can hit if he’s focused.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Muncy is $14.5 million in 2025 and a team option at $10 million in 2026.
Arenado is $74 million for three years, but the Rockies will pay $10 million of it.
Arenado still costs $25 million more during 2025 and 2026 even with the Rockies helping pay the tab.
And the Dodgers just won the World Series, even if it was a lateral move, it would be a poor decision.
I am not saying that Arenado cannot help a team, just try someone other than the Dodgers and resign yourself to including cash. Including $14 million in cash would make Arenado three years at $45 million. I could see a team swallowing that, with the Astros out of the picture, it is the Yankees. But if Arenado is $20 million a year, swing for the fences and sign Bregman.
BITA
Why do the Cardinals need to eat salary? It’s not a bad contract. Christian Walker just got 3 years 60 million basically same amount of money when you factor in the deferred money. I would take Arenado over Walker and of course you don’t lose a draft pick.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Walker plays great defense at 1B and is the superior hitter to Arenado based on 2024. Arenado plays a more difficult position defensively and still plays well defensively, but I don’t think there is a team that will pay the full $64 million for Arenado’s defense and declining bat.
We don’t have to convince each other. Let’s wait and se what happens. I was right about Belli. It depends which team has a need that matches the player. Of course, Arenado would have been much nicer for the A’s than Ursela, but Arenado has a no-trade list which makes it even harder to find a team willing to pay close to full ride on his outstanding $64 million, which includes the Colorado largess.
hiflew
You wouldn’t lose a draft pick, but you would lose an already established minor league player or two. I’d much rather lose the unknown quantity over the player(s) that I have already invested time and money into.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Also, there is a chance the Mets could be interested for the right price.
BITA
Why is Arenado declining but Walker isn’t?
You are making stuff up.
BITA
I think Arenado has neutral trade value. So you actually wouldn’t lose anything you just have to pay the money.
BITA
Mets can have Arenado and 10 million for Mauricio. That’s a guy the Cardinals could use.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
BITA
Not sure if you are replying to me
If so:
Walker
2023 OPS+ 122 and gold glove
2024 OPS+ 121 and gold glove
Arenado
2023 OPS+ 108 with no gold glove
2024 OPS+ 101 with no gold glove
You can have the last word, I rest my case
BITA
Weird how you left out 2022.
Walker’s WAR has declined each year from 2022 through 2024.
Raymond Flagstaff
max is not the better hitter
MLB Top 100 Commenter
“Hitter” as opposed to overall player. Max was clearly the better hitter in 2024. Over a full career, it is Arenado.
2024 regular season OPS Muncy 0.852, Arenado 0.719. Muncy had 15 homers in 237 at-bats, Arenado had 16 homers in 578 at-bats.
The question is simple: do you believe that 2024 is the new normal for Arenado’s bat or not?
Raymond Flagstaff
you are comparing apples to oranges. muncy is a specialist, not an every day player…. not as good a hitter
over the last 5 years muncy has hit under 200 twice and twice more under .235 and highest under .250
muncy is an adam dunn type, and not as good . fine but not all that impressive as a corner infielder, maybe as a second baseman
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I agree that Arenado is better fielder than Muncy.
I stand by my position that as of this juncture in time, I would say Muncy is a better hitter than a declining Arenado.
2024 regular season OPS Muncy 0.852, Arenado 0.719. Muncy had 15 homers in 237 at-bats, Arenado had 16 homers in 578 at-bats. I think that this is the new normal for Arenado.
Raymond Flagstaff
you can say it as much as you like, it doesnt change that one is a platoon split the other is an every day player. muncy is also way into decline although the numbers were never really very impressive so its hard to tell
youre comparing a platoon player in a WS champ lineup with 3 future hall of famers, and teoscar etc vs arenado on a pretty garbage team playing full time. its a terrible comp
Raymond Flagstaff
if the dodgers agreed with you muncy wouldnt have been a platoon player. he is a platoon player for the same reason relievers are in the pen, they werent good enough to be starters
there isnt a single year in his career his average was lower than muncy’s best average since 2018
how did muncy get to within 20 or so Ks of arenado in half the ABs? i could go on and on.. i have never been impressed by muncy tho. definitely more than i am suggesting i know exactly where arenado is at currently
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I will give you that Muncy had more talent in front of him.
At the beginning of September, Arenado had Goldie behind him and Muncy had Will Smith behind him. That does help Muncy a little bit.
Raymond Flagstaff
its far beyond that. far far beyond that. again its apples to oranges, goldy is way passed his prime. the dodgers have near elite production top to bottom with three superstars. that means pitchers are begging for outs in the other 6 spots which muncy is one when the matchup is right for him. its not just who is hitting behind you, its who is in front of you, how much does the pitcher have to throw you strikes because he can’t get back to the top with men on base etc
Raymond Flagstaff
im not sure ive ever seen a more misleading WAR than muncy. not sure but seems to me a platoon player should have their WAR halved because this appears to be whats wrong with his WAR. its way overvaluing him because the manager exploited matchups effectively with him. no reason to think arenado or whoever wouldn’t also improve their war by facing only good matchups. but perhaps im missing something here in the WAR calculation but it doesnt make any sense to me. if a player comes out and gets a 3 WAR facing righties then gives back 1 facing lefties that does not mean he is equal to a 1 WAR player that only plays against righties and never gets that win subtracted against a lefty. doesnt mean theyre equal players
Dash 2
Good for the Cardinals. Yankees are always trying to push their leftovers or overhyped prospects on other teams.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
There should be a team willing to take Stroman if the Yankees dangle the right propsects with him, otherwise, Yankees should just keep him as depth. Injuries happen.
Citizen1
Cubs would have taken this deal
If they have Arenado. Trying to shed $60 mil is problematic. Imagine the Mets trying to dump a high salary of $200 mil a few years from now or the dodgers .
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Citizen
It’s all in the numbers. Yankees wanted to send Stroman to the Cubs in the Belli deal and Cubs preferred to send $5 million in cash and get nothing back, which I thought was the right move for the Cubs. I am sure the Yankees would have sent cash rather than received it if Cubs would take Stroman.
EricM8
they hired bloom to help with their financials
they want to dump most of arenado’s money but not taken on anymore, which you can see why they didn’t want to go stroman route
however we’ve seen teams offer to swap one bad contract for another
with starting pitching the most valuable asset, you’ll see some team take a chance.
the whole mkt is kinda at a stall because of pricing, cheap owners, RSN money not being available.