As he heads into the third season of his five-year, $87.5MM contract, Willson Contreras is headed for a position change. The Cardinals plan to move Contreras from catcher to first base next season, reports Jesse Rogers of ESPN. President of baseball operations John Mozeliak told reporters at the GM Meetings today that the move to a first base/designated hitter role was made with Contreras’ long-term health and longevity in mind, adding that he’s “unlikely” to catch much at all in 2025 (X link via Katie Woo of The Athletic).
Mozeliak added that Contreras was quite clear about his desire to remain in St. Louis even as the team embarks on something of a reset (via Woo). That makes it unlikely he’d be willing to waive his full no-trade clause this offseason. It’s a similar story with right-hander Sonny Gray, it seems. Mozeliak didn’t directly state as much, but Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that Gray has also expressed a preference to remain with the Cardinals. Like Contreras, Gray has full no-trade protection.
The move to first base for Contreras opens the path for Ivan Herrera and Pedro Pages to split time behind the plate. It’s perhaps possible that an injury to one or both players could result in Contreras suiting up and crouching behind home plate once again, but it seems the organization’s preference is a shift away from that role. It’s the latest in a winding saga with the Cardinals’ seeming distaste for Contreras’ defense — one that began just weeks into his first season with the club.
The Cardinals announced early in the 2023 season that Contreras would be moving off catcher for at least a few weeks. At the time, Mozeliak stressed that Contreras hadn’t caught his last game for the club but added that the team had grown accustomed to Yadier Molina’s glovework behind the dish, adding that “this is going to take a little time to get him to where we feel he understands the expectations of what this role is for us.” It was a stunning announcement less than two months into a five-year contract, and one that generated even more confusion when Contreras returned to catching just one week later.
With the contract now 40% complete, Contreras appears ticketed for a more permanent move off the position. The 32-year-old has long been regarded as a bat-first catcher, but the ongoing questions about the Cardinals’ satisfaction with his defense (or lack thereof) has at multiple points prompted questions about why the team signed him to a five-year deal in the first place. Those questions will only grow louder now. Statcast has generally given Contreras plus grades for his throwing and rated him as a solid blocker, though his framing skills have been panned. He’s lived up to his end of the deal at the plate, however, hitting a combined .263/.367/.468 in 853 plate appearances. A broken forearm and finger, among other smaller injuries, have limited his time on the field, but Contreras has generally been one of the Cardinals’ best hitters when healthy.
That’ll presumably continue as he moves into a new role on the field. Contreras’ position shift seems likely to close the door on a potential reunion with free agent Paul Goldschmidt, who’ll now look to rebound elsewhere after a disappointing finish to his St. Louis tenure. It’ll also finally give the 24-year-old Herrera a crack at the starting catcher role for which he’s appeared ready for several years.
Herrera was thought to be a potential heir to Molina behind the plate, but any such hopes were dashed when the Cards originally signed Contreras. He’s a .289/.365/.398 hitter in 325 major league plate appearances (117 wRC+) and carries a stout .281/.414/.453 slash in 176 Triple-A contests. Pages, 26, hit .238/.281/.376 in 218 big league plate appearances in 2024. The righty hitter did post solid offensive numbers as a 24-year-old in Double-A in 2023, but scouting reports on him have questioned his hit tool while characterizing him as a likelier platoon option or backup.
Turning to Gray, his apparent desire to remain in St. Louis makes him a less obvious trade candidate than he was entering the winter. The Cards were reported to be open to offers on Gray even before they publicly revealed their plan for a step-back to focus on player development. Gray’s no-trade clause and heavily backloaded contract were always significant roadblocks in a potential trade, but ones that potentially seemed surmountable. He was quite selective about his destination in free agency, preferring to be relatively close to his Nashville home. Still, there was some thought that a trade to a geographically close club might hold appeal.
Working out such a swap would’ve been complicated. Gray’s three-year, $75MM contract paid him just $10MM in year one. He’s owed $65MM over the course of the next two seasons. That’s a huge number for an acquiring club to take on, particularly if said club has luxury-tax concerns (e.g. the Braves). A team acquiring a contract is taxed on the remainder of the deal rather than the original AAV, meaning a new club would be on the hook for a $32.5MM luxury hit in acquiring Gray. Those hurdles are all rendered moot, however, if Gray prefers to remain in St. Louis and see how things play out in the short-term.
Mozeliak told reporters today that he spoke to all of his players with no-trade clauses. That means he’s at least broached the possibility with third baseman Nolan Arenado. It’s not yet clear, however, whether Arenado is as convicted in his desire to remain on board through the team’s reset. Certainly, the lack of comments or concrete reporting on the matter doesn’t mean Arenado is requesting or even open to a trade, but the lack of information on him will fuel natural speculation. Arenado’s trade from Colorado to St. Louis, after all, was prompted by his frustration over the Rockies’ inability to field a competitive roster. Playing for a contending club was a priority for him — so much so that he passed on an opt-out opportunity in his contract to remain in St. Louis due in large part to their status as perennial contenders.
Arenado now has three years and $74MM remaining on his contract. The Rockies are on the hook for $5MM of that sum. He’s had two straight pedestrian seasons at the plate, batting .269/.320/.426 since 2023. That’s still slightly better than league-average production by measure of wRC+ but is a far cry from his MVP-caliber 2022 showing when he hit .293/.358/.553. Whether he can bounce back as he heads into his age-34 campaign is an open question, but Arenado remains an elite defender with rare durability. He’s missed 28 games over the past two seasons but has played in 94.6% of his teams’ games dating back to the 2015 season.
He is gone.
Not if he doesn’t waive his no trade clause.
Thank God I can finally stop hearing all this stupid nonsense about him returning to the Cubs. He’s just fine where he is thanks.
He would be an upgrade to whatever turd hoyer brings in
If you keep telling yourself that you might actually start to believe it. Rather have a cheap turd than an expensive one. Not that I’m expecting some kind of religious experience or anything from Hoyer either.
Besides, Cubs have Aliendo and Ballesteros who should be catching at AAA next year. I still have severe doubts Ballesteros can be a Major League catcher but I have no doubts Alendo can. Hoyer made a huge mistake not protecting Aliendo last year but he’s going to have to this year. He got hurt at AA last year or he would have been in Iowa with all the other guys they promoted. I don’t have any idea what Hoyer is going to do at C, But if Bethancourt came back I’d be slightly disappointed they couldn’t do better but I wouldn’t be hugely disappointed. He could hold the fort until the Cubs could develop somebody.
What a Stupid move it’d be to move Contreras to First Base!!!!
Goldschmidt is a perennial Gold Glove candidate!!!
It’s unreal as to how many errors Goldschmidt saves a year by catching all of the bad throws from each infielder —— every game!!!!
By putting Contreras at First Base to get a better Framing catcher is Tunnel Vision —— it weakens the entire infields Defense!!!
(Is Mozeliak so dumb that he can’t see that?)
Moves like this from Mozeliak are exactly the reason why the Cardinals are now going through a rebuild!!!
If I didn’t know better —— I would suspect John Mozeliak is making irrational moves such as this one… on purpose!
Just to insure the Cardinals are Rock Bottom before he leaves!!!!!!
I would assum Marmol had a rather large say in this (GMs don’t usually dictate where a coach needs to play a player without coach buy-in). Although my feelings towards Marmol aren’t much different. Either way, this is a mistake. Let him catch, where his value lies, or trade him. He has no value as a 1B.
His value is as a hitter, not as a catcher. Signing him in the first place was an act of desperation but he’s been a solid hitter when healthy. I would much rather see Herrera and Pages catching instead of him, and statistically, we win more games when that happens as well.
Would have liked to see them shed salary tbh, but if they can’t do that, might as well get the most of his bat.
Goldschmidt hasn’t been a Gold Glove Candidate in a couple years. He was worth 0 DRS last year in 1300 innings.
Goldschmidt not showing up this year at all is a big reason the Cardinals missed the playoffs.
More like goldy is gone
But it is smart to move Willy to 1st so that pages and Herrera can do catcher
Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of the soap opera Cardinals. Stay tuned. It will be something different next week.
@ lets: It really is amazing how screwed up this team is now.
I would think playing Contreras at C, 1B and DH at a roughly a third of games might be a better approach.
In his career he has hardly played any 1B. I agree with another commenter’s point while you are making the change trying to improve the defense at C but you don’t want to hurt your defense at 1B in a major way
Playing a good 1B is more than being tall and able to scoop bad throws. It involves positioning, range, agility, communication with your pitcher and 2B man. Initiating double plays, fielding bunts etc. Well this is where a good use of spring training will help a lot, of course.
StL management/coaches are trying to get better productivity and value out of their investment and minimize the wear and tear on his body. They are hoping for upside offense with less aches and pains but they know their will be defensive growing pains as the season unfolds
Considering Crooks was the Cardinals minor league player of the year and their 5th rated prospect by mlb.com I think he might be the long game for the Cards.
I would say it’s smart to get young guys reps at C, but dumb to do it by moving Contreras to 1B, where he’ll be below average in every aspect of the game. Why not let young guys get reps there too, and just trade Contreras for more young guys? This makes no sense.
No what was dumb was giving Contreras that much money in the 1st place.
His 134 wRC+ last year would ranked 4th at 1B last year behind only Freeman, Harper, and Vlad Jr.
If Mozeliak and Marmol had this sour opinion of Contreras’s Catching Skills ….. why in hades did Mozeliak sign him in the first place???
This is Crazy!!!!!
Typical wasted money by Mozeliak on his poor player evaluation prior to Mozeliak signing him!!!
Not Contreras’s fault!!!
“Front Office Errors” —-
in evaluating Free Agents —- Not assessing the pros and cons of the desired players’ offensive and defensive skills… “prior to”signing them —— is the reason John Mozeliak has pushed the Cardinals into Tanking their 2025 team for the first time since 1892!!!!!
The Cardinals are waisting a full season of rebuilding by allowing Mozeliak to even be associated with the Cardinals players.
Since he’s torn it down —- it makes no sense to think he could possibly be of any Benefit at rebuilding anything within the Cardinals organization.
Give Bloom the total rein and let him rebuild what Mozeliak has destroyed!!!
…he had a 136 OPS+ last year, it’s not wasted money no matter what position he plays. He would have been a top 5 1B with those numbers last year
This comment!!! YES!! Contreras to 1st makes a ton of sense. I’m sure both hom and gray were approached about getting traded by management. Both want to stay. I like it alot!! His bat plays in the entire league and he won’t get hurt behind the plate anymore… I’m not saying the Cards are winning anything at all in 2025 but I think they might surprise some people!
Yeah 77. It’s Mozeliak’s last chance to trade away the next Lane Thomas, Arozarena, Gallen, Sandy Alcantara, Jordan Montgomery, Edman, etc. Who will it be in 2025?
Contreras will be an “Error machine” at First Base!!!!!
He’ll have to hit .400 just to make up for his Defense.
Hmm.. Well you say that without knowing if he can find his a$$ with both hands at first- And that on the heels of having a gold glove first baseman there for years.
He’s a catcher with well above avg blocking ratings. I think he will figure out how to scoop a ball just fine lol
So you play Burleson, who was more valuable at 1B last year in ~120 innings than Goldy was in 1,300, at 1B most of the time with Contreras spelling him against righties. That lets Contreras DH most of the time.
Goldy hasn’t been a Gold Glove level first baseman in 3 years.
You said it right Dizzy. How MO can still be employed after how his office has performed is beyond comprehension. He should resign or be shown the door.
You just said it yourself, they’ve never rebuilt under Mozeliak. They’ve had winning seasons in all but one season. Fans like you cried when he signed Berkman to a 1 year deal then said how amazing Mo was after Berkmam had an mvp caliber season.
I sorta get the frustration of having a lame duck GM, but the guy has earned his keep and then some with his 17 year history with the team that includes a championship, in my opinion.
Mozeliak had a great pick up in 2011 which replaced Rolen’s bat in the lineup!! Bergman was that great pick up!!! That move most certainly helped win their 11th World Series Championship that season.
Bergman was injured most of 2012 and left following that season. However, Mozeliak made another nice pickup in Carlos Beltran to replace Bergman.
After the 2 yr. Beltran pick up —- Mozeliak got lucky in—- as he called it — finding a “Lightning in a Bottle” type player. These cheap players helped a season— then were gone……
Unfortunately for John Mozeliak and the Cardinals Franchise, Mozeliak …. to this very day has endeared himself to the philosophy of obtaining “LOW HANGING FRUIT” as his method of filling gaps in the Cardinals Lineup.
Nothing permanent through Quality free agent players as he’d done with Bergman or Beltran.
Mozeliak’s “LOW HANGING FRUIT” methodology has been his and the Cardinals Franchise’s Achilles Heal.
Mozeliak—- and no one else —- can be blamed for the Cardinals current state!!!
Maybe you’re right and Mozeliak can direct magical changes in the Cardinals this season and surprisingly win the NL Central!!!
Should that happen …. I will Gladly and Happily eat my words and apologize publicly to John Mozeliak and anyone else who has been offended.
He got what I would call lucky with a lot of players. Beltran was thought of as damaged goods. Goldschmidt showed signs of decline his last year in Az and his first year in Saint Louis. Both out performed any expectations they had upon their arrival. Arenado’s only option was to come to STL, every other team that was able to take on his contract was already set at 3B. Mikolis coming over from overseas outperformed as well. Maybe he knows more than we think, but I lean towards luck. Prior to 2011 it was LaRussa making the roster decisions. All of his first round picks thus far have been a bust as first rounders. He gave out a lot of bad extensions. Has never been able to build an outfield.
When you get lucky 10 or 15 times in a row that’s a skill, not luck.
LaRussa wasn’t making roster decisions. That’s nonsense.
You need to go look at his first round picks again. He’s been much more successful with them than other teams routinely picking in the 20s like the Cardinals have. Flaherty, Wong, Gonzales, Lynn, Wacha Piscotty, and still have Walker, Gorman, McGreevy, Hjerpe, Davis, and Wetherholt to pan out. Bust rate on picks in the last 20s is somewhere around 80%.. His bust rate is closer to 40% with those same picks.
Which extensions were bad?
I would hope he’s gone. Moving him to 1B, where he will be a below average offensive and defensive option, makes no sense. If you’re going to clear room, clear room by trading him and let some of the less experienced hitters like Burleson and Baker have a shot at 1B. This is just silly.
Contreras’ offensive line last year would have been 4th among MLB first baseman behind only Freeman, Harper, and Vlad Jr. There’s a very good chance it improves without the wear and tear of catching too. Below average? His defense remains to be seen but in the little time he played 1B with the Cubs he was adequate. They’re also framing this as a move to 1B/DH which could very well mean Burleson getting the bulk of the 1B innings with Contreras DHing and Contreras only playing 1B against lefties when Burly sits.
I think all three players are traded this winter: NYY-Nolan Aranado
ATL-Sonny Gray
CLE-Willson Contreras
That means Arenado’s probably gone.
Yep, if we know anything it is that Arenado will publicly whine his way off a team trying to rebuild making that rebuild even more difficult.
You would need a trade partner for that. He’s been declining and has three years left on the deal at $20+ million per year. Who is willing to give up anything for him?
Who says a team would have to give up anything of value to trade for Arenado
Hey 57, $69 million spent on something else has value which is why no team wants his contract.
How about DJLM + Peraza and/or Vivas?
Seattle.
Dodgers.
Honestly, there are a few teams that would either take him and have the Cards eat half the salary, providing a solid prospect or two in return, or a team like the Dodgers could take on the entire contract and provide a couple of midling “project” prospects in return, if the goal is to just dump salary.
arenado to phillies
Where would he play? They are set at the corners with Bohm and Harper.
Ya know the point of using 8 is to eliminate a, T, & E,
I have a StuStutter
Bohm falls out of favor twice a week with the Phillies. They’d have no problem moving on from him.
He just hit .280 with 97 RBI and has gotten better every year. They would never trade him to bring in an inferior Arenado.
Arenado to Phillies is worse than trout
Good. The Cardinals can’t get rid of Arenado fast enough for me.
He’s fine, but he’s no longer a superstar. He’s never been a leader.
He’s probably a good guy, he needs to be on a better team where he can bat sixth and filter into the background.
As for the return? I don’t care. Even if they have to pay half his salary, it’s worth moving on from the failed Arenado/Goldschmidt years.
According to Sports Illustrated Arenado will wind up in Boston with Devers moving to 1B and Casas traded. I kind of doubt it but it’s always interesting to see Sports Illustrated’s “throw s*** at the wall to what sticks” approach to reporting
It might not be 100% accurate, but that’s why they are called rumors and not facts. Honestly I’d rather read a bunch of realistic though made uo trade rumors, than be bored until baseball starts up again. At least that way you get an idea of what might be doing and it kills time while reminding me of my younger days when in winter I would get my baseball cards, divide them into team sets and then make logical trades to try and make the best teams possible.
The issue is that they’re not “rumors”; they’re blanket (and thus empty) speculation. One of the words I’ve come to most hate seeing in sports is “linked”, as in “Red Sox are linked to St. Louis slugger”. At this stage, the standard for being able to present that headline without being an utter lie is for just one of the most random bloggers online to toss the idea out there, and then writers who might as well be bots churn out an article in which the original post is cited and linked and then the idea is given a cursory examination.
I am perfectly fine with blanket speculation as you call it. Regardless of whether it is cited, linked, noted, and has a bibliography, no rumor is actually anything unless something happens. So I just have fun with them and treat them as the fiction they are.
But it appears that we just like different things. Nothing wrong with that. Good day to you.
I agree. Most people are just too stupid to handle speculation. They’re the first person to tell their friends, “Did you see what the Red Sox are going to do?”
Actually makes sense. Arenado and Story are best buds.
@eatonculo
The fact that i can’t reply to you directly implies that you have probably blocked me, but I’m going to anyway; it’s not that people are “too stupid to handle speculation” this website is literally based on it. It’s the fact that a once renowned publication such as SI is reduced to literally making up stories. They even quote this website and in an article about the Sox going after Corbin Burnes they cite Steve Adams in the article.
Even funnier when posters here make up trade scenarios they usually get lambasted for the same ridiculous things published by SI
I haven’t blocked you, and I agree with you about Sports Illustrated.
I wasn’t talking about people here. I was mainly talking about people I know in real life saying things like, “Did you see what the Cardinals are going to do?”
People take rumor as fact. That happens. Those people are stupid. Just look at the Facebook responses for your team’s MLB Trade Rumors page. It happens every day.
Sports Illustrsted used to be a trusted place for journalism. Now they just throw up trade proposals that may or may not make sense.
So correct, SI is a rag now.
Tom Verducci is still there, right? Solid baseball journalist.
I guess he is, dunno. I’ve met one of the new owners, minority share. He is a piece of work. I don’t see a future for it in any serious sports journalism. .
They wouldn’t trade Casas? He’s only 24. He had a break out year in 2023 and was hurt most of 2024 but still had an .800 OPS in 63 games.
Who said they wouldn’t trade Casas? I doubt the trade as a whole would happen because i don’t see the Red Sox parting with the prospects or taking on the remainder of Arenado’s contract
I said it.
Ok. Because you phrased it as a question so it looked more like a “why not?” Type of response
My apologies. It started off as a question to why would the Red Sox trade him, but I changed it to an affirmative statement. Looks like I forgot to remove the ?
His age and contract limit his value. If St. Louis pays some down, it becomes more palatable. If they don’t, it won’t take much in prospects.
Rsox, sports illustrated is now the bottom of the barrel. It’s amazing, isn’t it? SI is crapola. I won’t even click on their articles.
I’m surprised their AI generated articles are capable of doing any “speculation” at all.
The Chaim Bloom transition has has begun.
Only a FO person that doesn’t understand MLB at all would bring in Willson Contreras on a multi-year contract to call games and handle a pitching staff…..
Let alone give him a 4 year contract……3 of which remain. It’s pretty clear that no team will pick that up. If he hots decently and doesn’t screw up 1B they can find a contending team that needs a RH bat in 2025….26….27.
Chaim Bloom didn’t sign Contreras and the Cards were already talking about moving him off catcher in 2023 while Chaim was in Boston.
He could go back to the cubs to be their catcher
Or split time with Busch at 1st/DH and then bellinger gets traded
Cubs let Contreras walk because he had serious anger management problems and he lacked the soft skills at catcher. He’d smashed all the i-pads several times. Wouldn’t stick to the gameplan with pitchers. The Cubs tried to trade him at the break but no contender wanted to bring in a hot head catcher down the stretch who didn’t pregame well or stick to the script,..
The Cards interviewed him and offered him a contract immediately instead of asking around and doing their homework. A month in they tried to move him off catcher because he’s a nut.
Ya, a lot of that is untrue. There were absolutely interested suitors in a trade scenario with the Cubs. Teams actually approached them. And to talk about a guy being a complete hot head and doing nothing right on a team as if it’s completely well known, and then say another team came in and didn’t know any of it and were taken off guard, because they “didn’t do their homework” is just silly.
uh the Cubs didn’t trade Contreras at the deadline because nobody offered them any better than the 2nd round compensatory pick they got from offering him the QO that off season. Which turned out to be Jaxson Wiggins. Not to mention Contreras has catching flaws. Not to mention that teams don’t like to spend a lot of capital to bring in C’s who are unfamiliar with their pitching staffs with 2 months left. But other than being completely wrong, Good point Charlie. Thanks for playing.
Huh?
Chaim is there now and he’s inherited the problem.
One of many he has to dig the Cardinals out of.
They may find a team that needs a 1B/C/DH, but as he won’t waive the no trade clause, it just doesn’t matter.
Contreras at 1st might look really, really good. Cautiously optimistic for what that can mean for him health wise, and happy if Gray actually stays to help lead and mentor the rotation. Forces them to look more at moving Matz or hopefully Mikolas since their ceilings are lower
Contreras at 1B instead of Goldschmidt will lead to a substantial increase in infielder’s errors, not to mention the ball’s he won’t field that Goldschmidt would. Just sayin.
Looking at Fangraphs defensive info across Statcast/UZR/DRS, Goldschmidt has been an average-ish defensive 1B over the past couple years. He’s several years removed from playing Gold Glove caliber defense.
So we’ll see how it works out for Contreras. Maybe he’ll be fine, maybe it won’t go well. Picking balls out of the dirt – your apparent concern – is an area where a catcher’s skills should translate relatively well.
Joe Mauer was a very good defensive 1B after being a catcher, and Posey was fine.
Contreras played a little bit of 1B with the Cubs from 2016 to 2019, though not enough innings (50) for defensive stats to provide any relevant info.
There’s also the option to just play Burleson who looks like an above average 1B defensively as the strong side of a platoon while Contreras DHs and plays 1B against lefties when Burleson sits.
That’s what they get. Giving no-trade protection to a player you never should have signed anyway is pure Mo. Moving him to 1B makes the most sense. I imagine he still mostly DH’s against RH pitching, but playing him at 1B against lefties is a good idea.
DonOsbourne;
They gave him no-trade protection? Unbelievable!
LOL
The list of sweeteners Mozeliak gave to those over-the-hill vets he brought in on long-term contacts borders on bizarre. Bloom can’t even get rid of most of those guys without paying in money, prospects, or both.
This guy not only ran the organization into the ground and painted the organization into a coroner, he had multiple timed locks installed on the door that even pro locksmiths can’t open.
Sure, he’s not going to work in a major FO position in MLB again. But the question is: Why was he ever promoted to that level with the Cardinals? This schmuck may be the worst FO baseball head of an MLB franchise this century. Legendary! MLBTR should do one of their famous polls.
It’s hard to understand. Mo’s entire baseball backstory is bizarre. His Wikipedia page reads like Hollywood fiction. He got his first job with the Rockies by showing Bryn Smith some good fishing spots around Denver. Seriously.
Uh,Jed Hoyer has entered the chat.
Mozeliak’s moves in recent years leave a lot to be desired, but he’s been in charge of the Cardinals front office since 2007.
Over the 17 seasons from 2008 to 2024, the team has gone to the playoffs 10 times, made it to 2 World Series, and won one. They’ve had a losing record in one of those 17 seasons.
And the Cardinals have done that with annual payrolls that have been around 10th to 12th in the league, give or take a few spots.
It’s utterly ridiculous to act as if the team hasn’t had a lot of success during Mozeliak’s time running the FO.
Saying that Mozeliak is the “worst FO baseball head of an MLB franchise this century” are the rants of a delusional fool.
realist101;
Not at all…..
Those teams he took credit for were built by players drafted by Jeff Luhnow, Mike Elias, and Sig Mejdal. and developed by GM Walt Jocketty. and Manager Tony Tony La Russa.
They were playing St. Louis Cardinals fundamental baseball that was taught to players throughout their minor league system.
When La Russa and Jocketti left (and Mozeliak took over) things slowly began to change in how the Cardinals were training their players in the minors and using them in the majors. When Luhnow, Elias, and Mejdal left to build the Astros suddenly the Cardinals couldn’t draft very well (being polite).
People like you gave Mozeliak the credit for what others had built, which he happily took. But when those players got older and turned over, the farm system wasn’t producing much, and the Cardinal Way was abandoned. Mike Schlidt (who had worked coaching and managing in that system for years) tried to reinstitute it and was canned for “philosophical differences”.
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If Mr. Mozeliak was so skilled, how come players from his highly regarded farm system came up, seemed to be decent for a year or two, and literally every single one hit a wall and fizzled out. Some were traded to other organizations and have done decently for them.
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Maybe you don’t know it, but Cardinal “tradition” – which their TV announcer constantly talks about and the PR department pumps out – is all about strong fundamental play: On defense, running the bases smartly and aggressively, hitting to the right side of the field to move runners up, etc. And most importantly – Pitching. The Cardinals were known not only for developing their own pitchers, but bringing in so-so pitches in trades and signings and unlocking their potential.
THAT was Cardinals tradition, and it’s been lacking for well over 5 years now.
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When La Russa came in to work with Jocketti the Cardinals were in much the same spot they’re in today. They’d been run into the ground. They began the rebuild of the entire organization. It took some time. But they went to WS’s, had a strong farm system, and their players knew how to play the game. Mozeliak took credit for the work of others, and when he had to keep things going all he could do was take on salaries of FA’s and high-salaried players that either wanted to be traded or teams that wanted to get out from under players with high-salary long-term contracts. (Atkins does this in Toronto….Cashman in NYC). At some point that all collapses. Yadi held it up. When he retired Schildt tried, but he was only the manager.
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I’m not a “delusional fool”.
You’re a lightweight.
How do you possibly write that much about the Cardinals without mentioning George Kissel? He was the Cardinal way.
I think it’s fair to say there were some coat tails being ridden early on, and some running into the ground mistakes in the end, with some solid to excellent results somewhere in the middle. As usual, the truth is in the middle. Unfortunately the team started migrating south about 10 years ago, and while there have certainly been some playoff appearances, that’s less of a standard these days. Success in the playoffs when they do get there has been decidedly lacking, and they’ve looked completely overmatched in what they put on the field. There are better GMs. There are worse. He has probably grown stale at this point and needs a change of scenery though. It happens.
Perhaps if the Cardinals lose too much for his liking, Contreras might decide to waive his NTC down the line. Losing isn’t fun, and some handle it better than others.
Can’t tell if Samuel is on the spectrum or just obtuse.
Samuel-He’s just a windbag. Takes him 300 words to say nothing.
Refusing to waive a no trade clause for a rebuilding team normally means I’ll only waive it for a bonus in the paycheck.
Right Acoss?
Mozeliak: Hey Willy, we are trading you to the NY Mets to play first base.
Contreras: Nah, John, I love you man! I love Cardinals nation. I’m staying until the rebuild is complete.
I just don’t understand why his defense is talked about so much . As a Cards fan have watched most of there games. He’s No Yadi back there but never thought he was bad. Blocks well throws well. May be his pitch calling but seems that could get worked out. Framing maybe but that won’t matter soon. If he wants to stay that’s great. He’s a plus to me. Good hitter. Good clubhouse guy. Move him to first but stop saying he’s not a very good catcher. He’s maybe average but after watching a lot of baseball most catchers all have faults.quit comparing him to Yadi. Nobody probably can fill his shoes defensively
“Framing maybe but that won’t matter soon”
It will matter for 2025, and I think for the rest of Contreras’ contract.
Contreras has 3 years left on his contract. And would likely catch less and less each season just because of aging, especially if he can keep hitting well.
Just how soon do you think MLB will have automatic balls and strikes? Manfred has talked about a go slow approach, including that initial implementation of ABS in MLB might be a limited number of challenges per game. In which case the value of framing would initially be reduced, but not eliminated.
To be fair, the framing thing is often overlooked for offensive-minded catchers. The list of catchers with worse pitch framing metrics than Contreras includes Salvy Perez, Adley Rutschman, JT Realmuto, and Will Smith. Some guys are just given a free pass. There’s often a lot of emotion involved in these arguments.
This will go a long way in saving Willson’s forearms, hands and wrists. No more bats taking a whack at those bones.
This will keep him in the lineup, and the Cards will desperately need a good, veteran bat next season.. I pray he can handle the slightly errant throws half as well as Goldy did.. When they come in hot from SS and 3B, you have to have great hand-eye coordination like Goldy does.
And of course, this free ups Pages and Herrera for the Catching duties.
Isn’t there a minor league game on somewhere?
Blackpink/Joel check out Stevil’s blog at hardballviahardcore.blogspot.com/?m=1
and check out his proposed 3-team trade involving Cardinals. I know you like trade scenarios, curious about your take on that one.
That’s a complicating one. I think it’s reasonable from the Cardinals perspective. Really don’t want Castellanos. Haniger is obviously mainly a salary dump. Locklear i do like. I like Seattle picking up a 3b that makes a lot of sense. Don’t think they need Marchan but maybe. They have Ford I think he’s ready mid 2026.
I don’t see the Phillies valuing Contreras’ potential use at DH, since they have Schwarber there. And presumably *really* don’t want to put Schwarber back in the OF.
Bohm to Arenado is also more of a sideways move than upgrade at this point in their respective careers.
I think it’s OK from the Cardinals perspective. If I try to be objective about player value vs. contract, it nets out to buying a 50 FV (Locklear) for ~$35 million.
Bohm is a much better hitter at this point in his career than Arenado and Bohm is still trending upward while Arenado has been in a steady decline. In no way would it be a sideways move.
I think Herrera can be solid, so understand the move to 1st. I don’t understand why he won’t move his NTC. This could be a multi year rebuild, and losing isn’t fun
Herrera’s defense is poor at best as well as his ability to throw out base runners.
Yeah Herrera is a worse defender than Contreras. I don’t think people understand that. Pages is a good defender
Isn’t Herrera supposed to be a better framer than Contreras?
I thought the main defensive knock on Herrera is that his arm is really bad. Possibly to the point that other teams will target exploiting it so much that he can’t be an everyday starting catcher.
Framing is probably Herreras biggest strength and Contreras’ biggest weakness so yeah he’s better at that. And yes you are correct Herreras weakness is his arm.
Herrera is a slightly better overall defender than Pages and improvement throwing would push him well ahead of him. The gap between their respective offensive profiles is Grand Canyon sized.
Pages isn’t a good defender and his bat is atrocious.
Pages is a far better defensive catcher than Herrera is. I don’t know what games you have been watching.
Herrera’s defense is above average everywhere but throwing. His issue isn’t arm strength or accuracy but footwork and transfer. Both of those things are fixable with work. Call Mike Matheny and have him work with him his offseason and spring just like he did Yadi back in the day.
That’s a power-play — he wants to be compensated for shedding the NTC, especially if he would like to have some time behind the plate.
Exactly RunDMC. The response was fine, we’ll keep you at first until the contract runs out. It’s not a bad way to go for the Cardinals.
You’re right, and they can ease him back in, if needed, and/or provide some leadership to the young batteries. Considering they’re stuck with that deal and can benefit from keeping him on the field, he could be more valuable to them this way. Increase strengths (healthy ABs)/decrease weaknesses (risk with more games behind the plate leading to lost ABs). It could be a lot worse.
With Herrera, you have a guy who grades slightly below average at framing (so work, coaching, and reps might get him to average), and is about as bad as it gets at throwing out runners, and likely nothing is going to get him to where he needs to be there. That’s a killer. He’s probably better off finding a new position.
Statcast has Herrera above average both framing and blocking.
His issue with runners is footwork and transfer, both of which are quite fixable with reps. His arm strength and accuracy are fine. He’s just so slow getting to a throwing position due to bad footwork that his arm can’t make up the difference.
So bizarre that the Cards scouted him and saw him up close time and again yet had issues with his defense the minute they signed him.
His bat is legit and he’s getting older so this move makes sense, but that initial distaste for his defense has always struck me as odd.
It was a knee jerk reaction to being rejected by the A’s when the Cards tried to get Sean Murphy. I doubt we’ll ever know the whole story of what transpired there, but the A’s demanded more than the Cardinals were willing to pay and Mo panicked and pivoted to Contreras. The A’s later gave Murphy away for nothing. I tend to believe Mo’s arrogance scuttled the deal with Oakland.
Can’t claim to be an expert on the Braves farm system, but Oakland landed their top prospect and two other highly rated ones in addition to two players from Milwaukee.
mlb.com/news/sean-murphy-braves-trade#:~:text=Shar….
At Halos:
Obviously, I’m exaggerating to some degree. The A’s did get players from the Braves and Brewers, but most people at the time believed the haul they received was a lot less than what they supposedly asked from the Cardinals. Hindsight is 20/20.
My point is, the Cardinals made an emotional decision rather than an intellectual one when it came to signing Contreras.
It was an odd trade for sure. The Braves had just traded Shea Langeliers to the A’s at the start of that season and William Contreras was coming off an all-star season. The Braves sent Pache who was way overrated in prospect ranking and falling fast because he couldn’t and still can’t hit. The Cardinals have their version of Pache in Victor Scott II.
FWIW, the idea of not taking William Contreras who was a ML-proven bat and some questions with the glove, b/c you already had Shea – who had the opposite (questions about the bat sticking, but sound defensively) is ridiculous considering the ability to move a bat-first C off the plate to preserve his bat, and the idea that every team needs 2 decent catchers, especially if they’re young, so you don’t wear them down. Shea is a mid-order bat in that lineup, and outside of Rooker, they didn’t have anyone (now, Butler has emerged), so it would make sense to have Langeliers and/or Contreras, splitting time between C/DH and maybe even 1B. You’d have 2 controllable above-average bats in a lineup needing offense. Rather, OAK wanted Esteury Ruiz, a speedster with a lot of offensive questions. And we see how it’s turned out. Hindsight is 20/20, but this never made sense, especially if you’d already taken on Pache (from Olson deal), who was a higher-rated glove first, speedster that essentially is what you were hoping for in Ruiz (by declining William Contreras in the 3-way trade). Does not make sense.
JJ Bleday showed a lot of improvement last year as well. The A’s had one of the best records post all star break last year. They were at least a fun team to watch offensively. Can’t say the same for the Cardinals last year.
It’s the manager he’s an idiot. Team was losing so he blamed ONeill and Contreras. Marmol is a chump.
Nolan would like Milwaukee
Let’s see where to start with another hit piece at traderumors.
Not once has anyone indicated the Cardinals are not going to try and compete in 2025. Mozeliak said payroll will go down and they want to spend more on developing players. That’s all he said.
Contreras is not a bad defensive catcher. Rhe manager is a moron he should never have said anything to the media. I watch the games he’s not great but he’s decent. He’s capable of catching.
It appears Mozeliak doesn’t want to have to trade a catcher this is the easiest way to not have to do that in his mind. But 3 catchers is stupid. Even if Contreras plays 1b have him backup the starting catcher its.a better use of roster spots. And then you can get value out of whatever catcher is traded.
Awww, sad boy BP lives here all freaking day and calls articles “hit pieces”. Do us all a favor and DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT.
I muted you. Nice knowing you loser.
Pages has no value in a trade. He’s Tony Cruz 2.0. Herrera has a lot of trade value but then you’re stuck with the below replacement level Pages as your every day catcher which won’t work.
Pages is not below replacement level. And Crooks is on the way soon. Trade Herrera and let Contreras be the starter until Crooks is ready.
In the words of Ron Washington “it’s incredibly hard to learn 1st Base”
Good luck Willy
Tell ’em Wash!
Dumb move…he is a WELL above defensive Catcher and only controlled for the 3+ years. So who cares what he does after that?
Degaz;
I don’t know how you define: “a WELL above defensive Catcher”, but the fact is that Cubs pitchers didn’t like throwing to him, and Cardinals pitchers appeared to have the same problem.
A catcher is a pitchers partner. Catchers have to be on the same wavelength as the individual pitchers, as well as carrying out what the coaching staff wants out of the pitcher. There is no measurement or stat that people on the outside can look at. Earlier today the Guardians resigned Austin Hedgers. OK he can’t hit. But the pitchers love working with him and throwing to him. The Guards have had one of the best and most respected pitching areas in MLB for years (the Yankees, Padres, and Royals poached their pitching coaches from Cleveland and all have made their teams much better).
Like many things in baseball, the value of a catcher can’t be measured. Quoting stats about his hitting (the least important responsibility of a Catcher); throwing out runners (runners steal on Pitchers); the overrated framing stat (those things tend to even out as umpires mistakes do); leaving the blocking stat which is truly important.
Pitching is the name of the game in baseball, and a quality catcher makes his team so much better if he can get the best out of the individual pitcher. For over a century many legendary baseball heads have said that the catcher is the most important key to a teams success, or lack thereof…..the most important player on a baseball team.
Have heard those rumors before…more likely is he is aggressive with calling pitches and yes some pitchers just don’t like that. If you believe in metrics then he has NEVER had a dWAR below 0.0 with a 7.1 dWAR over 9 seasons. That is ELITE
Positional adjustment for catcher is 15 runs per 1,458 innings.
An average catcher over Contreras’ career 6,213 innings at catcher would have 64 runs in positional adjustment alone. Contreras has 3.7 defensive runs for his career so he’s 60 runs below average defensively. That’s not remotely elite.
Framing doesn’t tend to even out: it’s a documented and persistent skill.
And I think some, but not all, of reports about certain Cubs and Cardinals pitchers not liking to throw to Contreras are because of him being a below average framer.
As it stands now what this does is it takes a roster spot away from Luken Baker. And I don’t particularly like that he earned a roster spot for the 2024 season and didn’t get it until injuries happened. Now he’s getting squeezed again. Also 3 catchers is stupid.
I dont expect a lot of trades
Carrying a RH hitting, 1B-only platoon player is also a waste of a roster spot. Baker will be 28 years old on Opening Day. He’s not really worth treating like a prospect. I would rather carry Herrera and Pages.
We could trade a catcher and those guys actually have value unlike Baker who doesn’t because of his age. No reason to have 3 catchers. Contreras can easily be the backup.
We?
Pages has even less value than Baker who has very little. Who is trading anything for a replacement level catcher like Pages?
Who said trade Pages???? Nobody said that. I would trade Herrera he has a lot of value and Crooks is coming soon.
Crooks isn’t coming soon man. He’s still got to show he can hit somewhere other than Springfield. Herrera has already shown he can hit at the major league level as well as dominating AAA.
You can’t trade Contreras so you’d trade Herrera and have Pages catch every day? That’s goofy for a team that can contend with their young guys next year.
Yeah he’s going to start in Memphis and when he hits there he’s ready. This is all going to happen soon.
I would have Contreras catch until Crooks is ready dimwit. Contreras was an everyday catcher for years I am sure he could handle it for a few more months.
WUT?
Aside from hiring the Superfife, the Tigers should take on SALARY FOR THE ESKIMO!
Seems odd to me that they make this announcement unforced at this point in the offseason. Are basically saying”he isn’t good enough to play for us at catcher, but would you give us something of value for him?” He is only worth his money as a catcher. I get he won’t waive the clause now, but he could change his mind in a few months and now they’ve blown their hand. I’m trying to like their new philosophy but this looks bad.
His numbers are even pretty good for a first baseman.
I thought Willson Contreras was on his way to the Tampa Bay Rays. Him and Sonny Gray refuse to be team players by not budging on their NTC’s. Maybe doing it just to piss off Mozeliak.
You have to pay players to waive the no trade most of the time. That’s just the way it is. No reason to be upset.
Why would anyone waive their NTC to be a “team player?” That means you’re not on the team anymore.
Yeah I know I was trying to be too cute and I failed.
Team player? WUT?
The team didn’t have an obvious first baseman and this fixes that need. What it also does is open up a spot for Jimmy Crooks, who it has been said is liked by the pitchers, has thrown out base stealers at a 32% clip and finished last year with a .908 OPS. He’s better than both Pages and Herrera. I believe Herrera will be traded, Crooks will be the starter and Pages will be the backup with Chance Sisco hanging out in AAA in case of injury.
Crooks isn’t making the Major League team this season.
He most definitely is. He’s ready and already knows all the young pitchers they are going to try out this year. He’s better right now than Herrera and Pages combined. Which is why they will package Herrera and Pages will be the back up.
Crooks has never hit anywhere but Springfield in the Texas League launching pad environment and that was tied to a .390 BABIP which won’t last at the major league level.
Calling him better than Herrera who just put up a 127 wRC+ in the actual major leagues is laughable. He’s better defensively but that’s it.
Jordan Walker or Alec Burleson should probably be the ones moving to 1B over Contreras. I guess they don’t want justify paying a DH the money that Connor is making?
Burly will still play 1B against RH pitching. Contreras will DH against righties and play first against lefties. Burly’s platoon splits are more pronounced than Contreras’. That leaves the DH spot open for Walker against lefties and better fielding player in RF.
Don
That would be a good plan. Have to wait and see if they do it though.
I follow your logic, Don. It’s troublesome, though, to think the Cards would carry:
1. Three part-time DHs, one of whom weighs heavily on the payroll during a rebuild. And all of whom are liabilities when playing defense.
2. Three Cs, if Contreras is available when Pages and Herrera are not.
Oh, and Marmol would be afforded that many options.
It doesn’t look like they have much choice. They can’t trade Contreras and there isn’t any reason to trade Burly or Walker. There’s really no reason to continue to view Contreras as a catcher because the Cardinals don’t want him catching. At all. Burly and/or Contreras could develop into very solid defensive first baseman.
I don’t think Marmol has ever been afforded any options. Marmol does whatever he is told to do. That’s why he still has a job.
1. Two part time DHs, as Burleson will likely ride the bench against most lefties, and he’s not that bad of a defender at 1B like he is in the OF. Also, it’s not a rebuild until the Cardinals actually say it is.
2. There’s nothing wrong with that when the 3rd catcher won’t see much time behind the plate and is also the team’s best hitter.
3. Marmol has averaged a winning record over his 3 seasons as Manager, including a playoff team with over 90 wins and rebounding back to a winning record after a really bad year. There’s no reason not to give him at least another year.
Burleson isn’t a liability defensively at 1B though and he’d be getting the majority of the playing time. He’s not peak Goldy but he’s well above average.
Walker has shown flashes of being above average in RF too. He just has to be consistent out there.
So if he has a chance to land on a contender, he wouldn’t waive his no trade? That’s about par for Contreras.
A position change for Contreras
(or trading him away)
has been
“In the Cards”
for a while now.
Cheap alternative to getting someone. Plus his defense never has been top notch. Hopefully better at first. If he wasn’t busy, they would probably get Ron Washington to work with him.
Getting his bat 500 PA per season is far more valuable than anything he brings to the table behind the plate. Surprised it took this long.
cardinals are DONEZO
They bring Contreras in to fill the shoes of their long time elite defensive catcher, then get frustrated that he is not a good defensive catcher.
So the answer is to move him over to 1st base to fill the shoes of an elite 1st baseman…
3rd base in 2026?
Why not? 1B doesn’t have anywhere near the defensive requirements that C does.
Goldschmidt has had 1 elite season in the last 6. He hasn’t truly been a consistently elite player in years.
Not going to work- only a dh
Wonder if the Yankees might take a gamble on a 2 year deal for Goldy…..great defense, 150+ games played a year, HR and extra base pop, and a little speed with 10+ bases stolen…..
He could be gotten on a one year deal with a mutual or team option year. Yes, if I were a conender, I’d take a look. He won’t cost a ton, provides a great clubhouse presence, and was one of the best Cardinals hitters in the second half. He was excellent when allowed to hit out of the 5-6 hole last year (1,100 and .913 OPS respectively), but every time he heated up, Marmol moved him back up. If a contendor had him, they could let him stay down in the 5-6 area and hit away.
84 PAs hitting 5th and 29 PAs hitting 6th isn’t enough to tell you anything.
Contreras at DH, Burleson at 1B is the most likely way this works out.
I love public pettiness when it comes from the sea of red.
Trump has become the new Bauer on here. We all like pushing buttons. Never gets old.
Contreras is a below average defensive catcher. He’s 5 years younger than Goldschmidt and (last year) had superior BA, OBP & SLG. He only had half the ABs and hit 15 vs 22 HRs.. He’s signed through 2027, with a club option for 2028, at $18 mil per season. The fact that he could still fill in as a catcher from time to time is another bonus.
I’m guessing it will be a platoon with Contreras at 1B vs. LHP and DH vs. RHP, while Burleson plays 1B vs. RHP, and a committee at DH vs. LHP
Willson had only a puncher’s chance of getting into the Hall anyway, but this move will cost him his last remaining shot.
He never had a shot.