As the Cardinals look to trim payroll and shift towards focusing on young players in 2025, they’ve widely been expected to look to trade a number of their more expensive, veteran players. It seems as though that won’t come to pass with Willson Contreras and Sonny Gray, both of whom seem unlikely to waive their no-trade clauses to facilitate a move elsewhere. Third baseman Nolan Arenado is seemingly open to a move, however, though his own no-trade protection means that he would need to approve of any deal as well. One veteran player who lacks no-trade protection, however, is southpaw Steven Matz. That could leave the Cardinals motivated to part with him this winter, and Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch suggests that the club plans to “field interest” on both Matz and closer Ryan Helsley this winter.
MLBTR’s Anthony Franco discussed Helsley’s trade candidacy earlier this month, and previous reporting from Goold suggested that the Cardinals figure to set a high asking price for their closer. By contrast, Matz figures to be a more affordable player for teams to acquire who the Cardinals figure to be more motivated to move. The 33-year-old is entering the final year of his contract in 2025 and is due $12.5MM for next season. By offloading Matz’s contract, St. Louis’s payroll projection for next year (courtesy of RosterResource) would drop from just under $147MM to just $134MM. After the club spent $183MM on payroll in 2024, that type of drop off should be more than enough to accomplish their goal of reallocating funds away from payroll into their player development apparatus, and could even open the door to the club making some modest upgrades in free agency, whether that be a reunion with veteran right-hander Kyle Gibson or bringing a new arm into the organization.
While the Cardinals would surely like to offload the final year of Matz’s contract, that may be easier said than done. The lefty has had an up-and-down tenure with St. Louis since signing with the club prior to the 2022 season. He’s struggled with injuries and ineffectiveness throughout his time there, totaling just 197 1/3 innings of work during that time. Of his 52 appearances with the Cardinals, he’s started 34 while pitching out of the bullpen for 18.
His results have been roughly league average overall when he’s been healthy enough to take the mound, with a 4.47 ERA (95 ERA+), a 4.01 FIP, and a 21.9% strikeout rate. That production has been somewhat unsteady, however, with most of it coming during his mostly-healthy 2023 season. That year, Matz posted a 3.84 ERA (114 ERA+) with a 3.75 FIP in 105 innings of work. That solid work is sandwiched between two campaigns that saw him post an ERA north of 5.00. That includes this past season, where Matz struggled to a 5.08 ERA with a similar 4.88 FIP in 44 1/3 innings. He struck out just 17.4% of opponents this past year while posting a 7.9% walk rate that was his worst since 2018.
That’s not a particularly enticing body of work for potential trade partners, though that doesn’t mean Matz is impossible to trade. Notably, Matz has pitched substantially better in his relief outings with the Cardinals than he has during his time in the rotation. In 163 frames for the club as a starter, Matz has posted a 4.91 ERA. Meanwhile, his 33 1/3 innings as a member of the bullpen saw him post a much more intriguing 2.43 ERA. While the lefty’s overall results and durability as a member of the rotation leave his contract with little if any surplus value, it wouldn’t be a shock to see a club intrigued by his work out of the bullpen acquire him to act as a versatile reliever capable of stepping into the rotation if necessary. It’s a role some pitchers such as Nick Martinez, Jakob Junis, Spencer Turnbull, and Michael Lorenzen have found success with in recent years, and a team that values that sort of flexibility on their pitching staff like the Giants or Rangers could be a good fit for the lefty’s services.
Sunday Lasagna
If a team needs Matz to improve, desperation must be prevailing. Cards may need to pay his salary to get a team to take him.
Lanidrac
Unlike Mikolas, Matz at least has some trade value, as he’s still a decent pitcher when he’s on the field. The Cardinals might have to eat a few million, but they wouldn’t have to cover his entire salary.
Besides, if they did need to eat his whoie salary, they might as well just keep him in the first place.
Blackpink in the area
My guess is they eat half the salary and take back a nobody prospect and that would get the deal done.
L Francis Reves
Maybe just 4-5 mil.
websoulsurfer
Negative trade value, but value. Cardinals will have to add prospects to the deal to get someone to take him.
Cardsfanatik redux
They won’t add a prospect to offload him… That’s dumb. they’ll just keep him and use him in the bullpen. A lh relief pitcher that pitches at a mid 2s ERA isn’t worth nothing either. So he’s not a 12 million dollar starter. Big deal. they won’t offload future to be rid of him.
kitkat40
You must not know trades in baseball?
stymeedone
If he’s not a $12mm starter, do you really think he has value as a non closer relief pitcher at that price?
JoeBrady
stymeedone
If he’s not a $12mm starter, do you really think he has value as a non closer relief pitcher at that price?
========================
It would be nearly impossible to trade him as an RP. No one will pay more than $4M for an unproven BP arm, that’s old, and with an injury history.
And at that price, the Cards would be better off keeping him.
Cardsfanatik redux
This is what I’m saying, people just can’t comprehend it. They’d rather argue about it. No, he’s not a 12 million dollar pitcher. But he’s also NOT worth unloading future talent to get rid of.
websoulsurfer
What is dumb is believing any team would take on the $12 million owed to a 34-year-old Matz without either most of that money or a prospect attached. He has been both injured and just plain bad.
Pete'sView
Lanidrac —
“A decent pitcher?” What kind of MLB are you watching?
Lanidrac
The kind where Matz had a 3.86 ERA that was worth 1.9 bWAR (despite the lost time to injuries) in 2023 and pitched well out of the bullpen last year.
JoeBrady
pitched well out of the bullpen last year.
======================
He had a .663 OPS but with a .233 BABIP. If that reverts to a .290 or so, then the OPS looks pretty weak.
Pete'sView
Lanidrac — Sure, go ahead and build a rotation or a pen with that arm. Just get him off the market so my team doesn’t even consider adding him. He sets a very low bar.
letsholdemandgohome
Him and Libertore are actually very good out of the bullpen. They both struggle as starters.
Matz may have to prove himself out of the pen before he earns a starter role.
astick
NO kidding. Listening. lol. Yaaaassss. I’m sure.
What a puke statement.
17dizzy
Actually —- Matz has some trade value. Both as a 6th starter or Lefthanded reliever.
Mikolas is the one the Cardinals will have to eat all of his salary. Because of another dumb John Mozeliak 2 year extension of Mikolas.
Lanidrac
That Mikolas extension was only dumb in hindsight. Mikolas was still pitching well at the time the deal was made, and while they did wind up having to overpay somewhat even for the value he possessed at the time, they essentially had to make the deal with so many of their starting pitchers set to hit free agency or retire at the end of 2023.
Then most of the pitching staff, including Mikolas, unexpectedly collapsed in 2023, Mikolas declined even further last year, and so now, yes, the deal wound up being terrible, but hindsight is 20/20 (or 2023 in this case).
Blackpink in the area
Liberatore was in line to take over in 2023 but he was blocked by Mikolas and the other old guys. It wasn’t hindsight that was a stupid extension. The first extension I don’t have a problem with eventhough it turned out poorly. But then to give him the next extension that was dumb.
Lanidrac
The extension was for 2024-25. Mikolas was still under contract for 2023 and was one of those set to hit free agency afterwards. Liberatore was not expected to join the rotation in 2023 either way.
Liberatore may have been expected to take over a spot in 2024 at that time, but even without the hindsight of his failures to establish himself as an MLB starter, that still would’ve only left him and Matz projected for the 2024 rotation (with Pallante yet to move to the rotation). They still would’ve had a hard time filling out the rotation in free agency as they still wound up having to do even with Mikolas still under contract.
Mikolas’s first extension turned out OK, even with the injuries in 2020 and 2021 and the disappointing final year in 2023, as 2021 and 2022 more than made up for them. That one wasn’t dumb at all.
Lanidrac
I mean, 2022 alone made Mikolas’s first extension mostly worth it.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
I remember the good ole days when Matz was labeled an “Ace” as part of a certain overrated pitching staff of “Five Aces” in an city that specializes in overratedness.
Matz, the Dark Knight and Thor. That’s a big ole overrated LMFAO!!!
Flyby
Matz never turned into the ace Sixto Sanchez has become. Cant believe how overrated Matz was compared to Sixto. How many cy youngs has he won again? Wasnt he part of the “aces” of the marlins. The marlins should be getting a couple of top 5 prospects for Sixto if they ever trade him. Oh wait.
Funny you left out that Dark Knight, Thor, was with Degrom (whom is absolutely worthless i know couldnt probably polish sixtos boots), and Colon whom all either received the cy young or were top 10 in cy young votes at one point or another so the potential was there considering all except colon were young and just breaking in with top level stuff. .
BannedMarlinsFanBase
@Flyby
You didn’t hear any Marlins fans or Marlins players call our guys “aces” like we saw from the Mets – including one of the pitchers self-procaliming that they had “Five Aces” (Syndergaard).
DeGrom proved he’s been an Ace. Wheeler has proven to be an Ace caliber guy…after he left the Mets, not during. The other three have been the very definition of overrated…and in Syndergaard’s case, self-annointed greatness.
JoeBrady
…and in Syndergaard’s case, self-annointed greatness.
====================
Thor had ace-level talent, but got injured too often. In his first four years, he had a 2.93 ERA, 2.66 FIP, 9.9K/2.0 BB/9, and 0.7 HR/9.
That’s #15 in fWAR, and his fWAR/IP was probably in the top-10. Obviously health counts, but there is no doubt that he had #1 quality.
Flyby
Wheeler proved he was an ace especially in his last year and change with the mets as it was his injury history that was the issue and slowed his development (thank the wilpons being medical experts and say the guy is fine and play him for that). If he was not ace why would the Phillis give him top 20 (i think top 10) pitcher money when he signed there.
There were/are hardly any marlins fans to cause major hype except the ones that frequented the Mets articles. All of them said how great their rotation was after covid season and all their “Aces” that were there and on the way with Alcantara, Sixto, Pablo, and i believe it was Koehler and Braxton plus others as “Aces”. i forget due to the amount they say is going to be the next ace and the revolving door of arbitration eligible prospects that they trade or cut were definitely more than 5.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
@Flyby
I’m calling you out. Name the Marlins fans who called the Marlins pitchers Aces. I’m betting you have none and that was your red herring to avoid the FACT that one of your pitchers (Syndergaard) called that pitching staff “Five Aces”…and your fan base and beat writers swallowed it up.
And with the mention of Koehler, it shows how much you pay attention to games considering how the Marlins are in your team’s division. FYI – Tom Keohler hadn’t pitched in MLB since 2017, and was gone from Miami earlier that season and went to Toronto. Do you even see the other teams when the Mets are playing them? I’ll give you some more FYIs…Dale Murphy is no longer with the Braves, Mike Schmidt is no longer with the Phillies, Andre Dawson and Tim Raines are no longer with the Expos.
And good job at regurgitating the same ole ESPN narrative about Marlins fans. Very original.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@Banned They must have had Wheeler about that time too. Who was the fifth “ace” ???
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Yep, Wheeler was the fifth “ace”. Funny thing, he didn’t perform like one until after he left the Mets. But fans, and Mets players, and one of the pitchers (Syndergaard) annointed them the “Five Aces”.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
I will trade my last unopened box of grape jelly Uncrustables for Steve Matz.
Motor City Beach Bum
The Tigers will jump in and offer Kenta Maeda for that and throw in some empty pop cans as well. Good deal?
Blackpink in the area
If the Cardinals wanted a player with a questionable contract they would want someone younger not another soon to be free agent the Tigers giving up on Keith yet?
Motor City Beach Bum
It was a joke. No one’s taking Maeda from them. I’m not sure what you meant with Keith?
Blackpink in the area
There has been talk that the Tigers might look at Bregman to play 3b. If they do and the Cardinals trade Arenado they could be looking for a long term 3b.
Motor City Beach Bum
Keith’s arm was pretty wicked before he got hurt but I haven’t seen anything indicating it has recovered sufficiently for him to head back there, which is why they supposedly moved him to 2B. I can’t see them trading him after signing that contract last year.
I am really curious which way the Tigers will go to add offence this year. Get a 3B like Bregman or Arenado, which leaves Jung out in the cold unless he gets 1B reps. Grab a short term 1B like Goldschmidt to share time with Tork or upgrade with someone like Walker. Play the SS combo of Sweeney/Baez or get a SS like Kim or Adames…who could also be considered for 3B. Go get an OF/DH like Santander, which take at bats from Perez and Malloy.
I expect something to happen at the winter meetings.
Your Cards will likely be very busy from everything I’ve read. Smart move on their part to retool and not be delusional like Arte Moreno!
Blackpink in the area
I wouldn’t believe everything you have read. This site is run by Cubs fans thats all I will say to that. The Tigers and Cardinals are similarly talented teams no clue why you think otherwise. The Angels won how many games last year? They haven’t made the playoffs in a decade the Cardinals have had 1 losing season in the last 17 years
Motor City Beach Bum
It wasn’t meant as an insult. The Cards are smart to retool and get younger while still trying to compete in a winnable division. The Tigers did it and it worked out for them. The Angels keep trying to add vets when they should be retooling instead.
Blackpink in the area
Again the Cardinals and Tigers are similarly talented teams. The Cardinals had a better record than the Tigers did at the trade deadline.
The Angels are a joke of a franchise. And I will always be anti Angels because Arte threw a ton of money at Pujols.
Pete'sView
Blackpink —
“similarly talented” could mean a lot of things. The White Sox and Rockies are similarly talented.
JoeBrady
Again the Cardinals and Tigers are similarly talented teams. …I will always be anti Angels because Arte threw a ton of money at Pujols.
==================
They are not similar. The Tigers are a good bit better.
And how could you not be amused by a team that thinks aging curves don’t apply to them? Signing a player in a semi-steep decline, to a contract taking him into his 40s, is the stuff of legends.
Blackpink in the area
The Tigers are not a good bit better than the Cardinals. The Tigers got hot at the end of 2024 who knows if that continues into 2025.
Pujols wasn’t in decline after 2011. There were some warning signs, particularly with his baserunning he was limping sometimes but nobody could have seen him completely falling off like he did. Now it’s not asurprise the back end of that 10 year deal went wrong but the deal went wrong very quickly for the Angels and that was a surprise.
17dizzy
I agree ….
For Mozeliak to trade Mikolas, Matz, Contreras or any other Cardinal currently under the “Bad Contracts Issued by Mozeliak” it is going to cost!!!
Ownership is going to have to eat Millions of Dollars and will receive marginal… to worthless players in return…. Just to get rid of them.
Why Ownership didn’t throttled Mozeliak over the past 8-10 years for his waist of money on marginal players is beyond me.
Had they ….. the Cardinals would not be in the nasty shape they are in today.
The Cardinals are totally having to Forfeited the 2024 season and beyond because of one man!!!
John Mozeliak!!!
Sickening to this 70 year Cardinals fan!!!
The handwriting has been on the wall in “Bold Letters” for years in respect of Mozeliak’s fall to ineptness!!!
17dizzy
To trade off player contracts such as Matz, Mikolas, Contreras, Arenado, Gray and all of the other Mozeliak horrible team contracts —- It is going to Cost the Cardinals Franchise Multimillions of dollars of — eating portions or most of their contracts salary in 2025 and beyond —- just to move them!!!
Thank you John Mozeliak!!!
You have gone Totally Brain Dead over the past 8 years!!!
This one belongs to the Reds
You are going to see more of these versatile guys on rosters with all the four and five inning pitchers.
stymeedone
Sure, but not at $12mm. Finnegan and Romano were both making less and got non tendered as closers. Long relievers/swing just don’t get that type of money, even if they are LH. Here’s a choice, trade for Matz, or sign Tyler Alexander as a FA.
Flyby
While i do agree with you on dollars in this case but these versatile guys can give you a spot starts where if i remember correctly majority of free agent starting pitchers are over 10M+ . so i would put them higher than most relievers especially ones that were mainly starters before.
Finnegan is a rarity as he was an all star and has been a pretty solid reliever/closer for a length of time but i can see him getting 8-10M fairly easily with his track record.
Blue Jays fans were pretty upset with romano as he was like Diaz from the mets and ever game he closed was a nail biter and not very clean but i can see him getting 8-10 on the open market as well.
Depending on the trade pieces/dollars, i may go to Matz as he has had some above average numbers as recently as 2023 and Alexander hasnt shown much stat wise since covid season.
Alexander is cheaper but looking him over, i also wouldnt be surprised if he is waived multiple times like Tonkin last year, Matz i see being able to stay on the roster because he has been a starter and effective one at points and more recent.
Ketch
Expect to field interest?
OK. Good luck with that…
Superstar Prospect Wander Javier
My men’s league team needs a number 2 starter.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
You sure you can outbid WalMart? I hear they’re looking for some more pitching to go with Trevor Bauer to support their mashing duo of Avi Garcia and Yasiel Puig. They could dethrone the ‘Evil Empire’ of Amazon with their big budget Canadian pharmaceuticals that they inject into their players.
kenly0
WOW. No one wants Matz. They’d have to give someone like Helsley for free to get someone to take Matz.
Lanidrac
Why not? If an acquiring team gets lucky to where Matz actually stays healthy, they get a decent pitcher for not a bad price, especially if the Cardinals are willing to eat a few million of his salary.
Pete'sView
Have you not followed Matz’ career? The guy is awful. Better to give a AAA prospect a chance.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Some people don’t look at Mtz actual performance, but instead, go with the overrated narrative he got when he was part of the other overrated pitchers that were part of the overrated “Five Aces” that were the staff in the city of overratedness.
Matz, like his former teammates the Dark Knight and Thor will always have people thinking that they were actually good in their careers.
Lanidrac
Apparantly you haven’t. His career has been up and down, but overall, the guy was pretty decent before he came to the Cardinals, and he’s been decent most of the time over the last two years when he’s actually been healthy,
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Oh, I saw him plenty in the NL East. I think, based on your description, you have a much lower bar than I do for calling a pitcher “pretty decent”.
FrontOfficeStan
You have to understand that cardinal fans are coming from a position of cope, hope and facing depression. Pretty decent means there is value for this guy in a certain role on the right team. We have seen flashes of Matz that make us think he would be better than average on our underwhelming rotation. And flashes of Matz in the bullpen where he was a shining light in a barrel of darkness.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Hmmmm…What major leaguer that has stuck for more than a year hasn’t shown flashes that would make people think they’re better than average or there’s value for that guy in a certain role on the right team? Are we going to start calling all of those guys “pretty decent”? Just because they’re good enough to stick because they’re better than career minor leaguers that couldn’t or all of us that couldn’t even sniff the big leagues, does not make them “pretty decent” at the MLB level. Matz has been, and apparently still is, an overrated player that failed for the most part, while having a good enough agent to sucker a team into an overpay based on flashes and media hype received when he played in a market known for overrating players and prospects.
FrontOfficeStan
“Are we going to start calling all of those guys pretty decent”? That’s the thing about words and subjectivity, there is no uniform opinion. Matz has value when healthy, to argue otherwise is just disingenuous.
Fred2023
I notice you didn’t mention the 5th guy in your jibe about the 5 Aces. Too bad the Mets insulted him and then fumbled away a guy who actually wanted to stay near New Jersey. Harvey was very good at the beginning but was felled by the nightlife and the knife. “Thor” also had injuries that turned him into Ant Man in terms of impact. Matz has always been up and down. Meanwhile, “the city of overratedness” wishes to introduce you to Brandon Sproat next year.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Has your Mets PR Machine already started putting Sproat in Cooperstiown already? Maybe he’ll be right there with the “Five Aces” and “Generation K”.
Why do you Mets fans always do that to your prospects? Don’t you think the reason your team has so many busts is because your fan base and media put too much pressure on them with all of the hype you all place on them? Let the kids play and show what they can do at the MLB level before you guys start squawking about the kid like he’s great before he’s spent one second on the field in an MLB season.
kellin
He alternates between having a good year and a bad year, and if all holds, he should have a good year. Cardinals throw in half the money and ask for some low level prospects, they might get someone like Marlins or As to bite..
LouWhitakerHOF
Teams like the Marlins and A’s keep their budgets low by accumulating prospects not giving them up for players like Matz.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Marlins are not touching Matz.,,unless the Cardinals pay them to take him. The Marlins are better off with their ptchers. They have several to choose from, and matz isn’t better than any of them.
DarkSide830
Plenty of Matz clones and better in free agency
deweybelongsinthehall
No disrespect meant but Matz has been an enigma his whole career. Good stuff and at times has looked really special yet due to injuries and performance he’s at most a four and more likely a five. Those spots are not going to a $12.5m pitcher at least not until the deadline. If he stays healthy, I can see a team desperate due to their own injuries or back end performances give a marginal prospect or two for him. Even then, the Cards could have to pay down the salary to get that second prospect.
Pete'sView
I’d rate him a #6 0r #7.
Salzilla
Crickets…
gr8one99
It’s funny how Mozeliak is on record basically saying the Cardinals were adverse to signing a big tag free agent pitcher due to the risk associated with potential injuries and then he signed Matz who had a history of arm issues…….
Lanidrac
At the time they signed Matz, he had a decent health record. Most of his injuries have occurred after they signed him.
Flyby
he was injury prone with the mets and started off hot and because of injuries was not really worth keeping then they traded him to the blue jays were he stayed relatively healthy.
Lanidrac
He had injuries very early in his career, but he stayed healthy from 2018-2020 during his last 3 years with the Mets and again with the Blue Jays in 2021
Flyby
“Most of his injuries have occurred after they signed him.”
“He had injuries very early in his career”
these do not match
FrontOfficeStan
The Matz contract was pretty cheap at the time and definitely not a big tag free agent. I don’t fault Mo for that signing, if it panned out he looks like a genius and Matz would have exceeded the value of that contract. I never wanted that signing, but it made sense. When you see how much pitchers are signing for, the Matz deal could have looked like robbery if he was healthy.
eatonculo
Matz looks great, plays bad, throws a good game, gets injured, plays bad, throws a good game, looks great, gets injured, plays bad, etc…
He might last full season in the bullpen one day, but he’s not worth $11 million.
If a POBO needs a left-handed reliever, has a lot of money, and squints real hard, they might give the Cardinals a washed out 25-year-old reliever still in A-ball.
thickiedon
Better off trading in-season. Currently, Kyle Gibson and several others could be had cheaper without sparing prospects?!? Absurd to think payroll would decrease from $147MM to $134MM. NO team will take on his full salary. And then propose STL uses savings to resign Gibson? Ridiculous article
Sk8
What interest? Matz hasn’t been good since 2021.
Lanidrac
He hasn’t had a full healthy season since 2021. There’s a difference.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Matz Family Burner Account spotted.
The McNasty1
Matz, as an MLB pitcher, is garbage.
CardsFan57
There are two possibilities for trading Matz. 1. Eat most of his salary. 2. Hope he has a good first half and deal him at the deadline.
His contract is well underwater.
Blackpink in the area
What do you think he would get if he was a free agent? I think maybe 6 million or so.
Flyby
3-4 million plus incentives based on either innings pitched or a formula based on appearances where starts are worth more than relief appearances
Pete'sView
CardsFan57 — And you’d still need to find a team willing to use a roster spot for him. Why would any team (except maybe the White Sox or Rockies) do that? The Cards have an albatross.
JoeBrady
IMO, he is the type of guy the Phillies should be looking at. They really need a #5 until Painter arrives. And assuming that Painter is good, they will need a #5 in 2026 after Suarez departs.
But you still have to eat salary, but it’s a fit.
10centBeerNight
Caveat emptor
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Empty cavities
seamaholic 2
Take a $6m or so player back who can be a bench hitter, plus an exchange of prospects. This can be done, as lefties with good pen numbers who can start in an emergency are worth something. Just not $12m.
BigV
Agree good idea
Blue Baron
He might be ripe for the proverbial mid-career move to the bullpen like Andrew Miller.
CardsFan57
He’s been good out of the bullpen for the Cardinals. He’s not been $12 million a year good.
mitchladd
And I’m prepared to entertain offers from billionaires willing to give me enough money to buy the cardinals but that doesn’t seem likely, either.
Smacky
Send him back to the NL East so the Braves can pound on him like when he was in New York.
RochesterMetsFan
What if he’s on the braves….
Smacky
He never see a mlb mound unless it’s for BP.
Mikenmn
Reminds one of the old Visa commercial where the actor says “my interest is piqued…..”
Smacky
Southwest “Want to get away”
Champs64
Oh yea, another article about the Cardinals trying to get rid of players, or how they must cope with players not wanting to give up no trade clauses. What a exciting time to be a Cardinals fan. Still waiting for the article about them entertaining offers for the POBO.
Lanidrac
Um, this one is specifically about a player WITHOUT a no trade clause.
Champs64
So what. As I said,the article is literally about the Cardinals wanting to get rid of a player, regardless of their contract situation. Every article regardless of content must speak to the fact that Gray, Contreras, and Arenado have a no trade. Enjoy.
tmlmikey
I’d be curious to see if Jays go to Cards after missing out on Soto. Arenado, Matz and Helsley could be decent (even needed?) adds for Toronto.
metsin4
Matz for Jeff McNeil.
Flyby
ill be honest i dont see why this is advantageous to the cardinals in any way. McNeil is paid more and for longer and would be a super sub probably for the cardinals as i think all the places he would play are covered by someone else.
Lindor's Bodyguard
Annnnnnnd…. McNeil is owed $33.5 million
energel
Dont go to the pirates
LFGMets (Metsin7) #BannedForBeingABaseballExpert
If I had to put my money on it, Matz will be a SF Giant before the season starts. They need a lefty replacement for Snell in their rotation. With their reclamation projects like DeScalfani, Alex Wood, and Alex Cobb succeeding in recent years, this move would make the most sense
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Guardians & Brewers also good at resurrecting reclamation projects, but I suppose not at that price point.
Pete'sView
LFGMets (Metsin7) #BannedForBeingABaseballExpert —
Are you nuts?! There’s nothing to “reclaim” in Matz. Giants better be smarter than that.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #BannedForBeingABaseballExpert
@Pete’sView Matz can either be really bad or really good. He definetly has potential
stymeedone
The $12MM salary is the obstacle. There are several swing type pitchers who are FAs that can be had for much less money, and even on a minor league contract with invite. Several are LH. Most teams have a AAA starter that could fill the swing role, as well. Matz makes absolutely no sense for any team with that contract, when there are so many alternatives.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Right! For instance I would rather have Lorenzen than Matz.
KnicksFanCavsFan
Arenando, Helsey and Matz for Schmidt, Stroman, Spencer Jones and one other prospect other than Dominguez, Rice or Durbin.
Cardinals have a great bunch of young position players. Hicks can go back to his normal position at 3b. Schmidt has 3 users of control left. I like Schmidt but I’m assuming the Yanks might go after a FA SP which could make Schmidt disposable altho he looks like he’s coming into his own. Stroman is owed about 1/$18 mil. The Cardinals save about a net $65.
Yanks get their 3b and closer. If Helsey had a great year, maybe they have an advantage to resign him.
Sound right or nah?
Blackpink in the area
I think thats a fair deal but the Cardinals don’t need Stroman and probably don’t need Schmitt either. Also a left outfielder isn’t really a good fit.
Arenado
For
Lemahieu plus 15 million
Lombard Jr
And if the Yankees want Matz they can have him for about 6 million the Cardinals would pay the rest of the salary.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #BannedForBeingABaseballExpert
@KnicksFanCavsFan absolutly awful of a trade for the Cardinals. Why would they ever do that? Arenado is still a semi-allstar calibur thirdbaseman and Colorado is paying most of his salary off. Helsley is a top 3 reliever right now and Matz still has some value as a 4th starter lefty at an affordable price. Spencer Jones strikes out over a third of the time in the minors. This trade only makes sense for the Cardinals if the Yankees offer Dominguez, Gil, Cabrera, and Schmidt
Fernando P
Arenado is still owed 74M with Rockies covering 10M of that. He’s a solid defender and league average hitter. And Helsey is an elite closer.
All that said there’s no way Yankees send all those prospects for one year of Helsey and a declining Arenado.
I’d rather lose two draft picks to sign Christian Walker for 3/64M for 1b and sign Kirby Yates to a one year deal for bullpen.
Flyby
@LFG that would be wrong on Arenado contract. He is owed still 74 in salary (i dont think there is a buyout) and colorado is only paying 10 of that (5M a year). so he costs the team about 65 maybe more as im sure there is some kind of kicker or something he will request to waive no trade
Stro and Schmidt are about 20 mil. Matz and Helsey is about 15M
so in all the cardinals are saving about 60M and getting back atleast one prospect that was pretty high on lists last year. They could easily do what padres did and flip jones for another valuable player / prospect so i wouldnt discount that.
In the end, they shaved around 60M while getting a potentially useful piece in schmidt and jones if they dont trade him and potentially more while getting younger as well. Its not a great trade but definitely not awful especially for the cards and what their goal is.
KnicksFanCavsFan
@LFG
Arenando is still a good player, which is why the Yanks would likely have no problem eating the net total of $74 mil after you deduct the $10 mil Colorado is covering. But that still takes $74 mil of the books for the Rocks and allows Hicks to play his normal position. Matz is a failed signing with very little value to anyone, least of all, as a starting pitcher. In 3 years and $32 mil Matz has given the Cards 10 wins, 34 starts and a 4.47 ERA. The Yanks have to rebuild their bullpen and Matz looked decent in that capacity, albeit in a small sample size of 12 IP. Honestly, Yanks are doing the Rocks a favor taking on his salary.
Reality is, Cards have a great lineup of young position players at the major league level. Their pitching however, yikes. Gray, Mikolas, Gibson and Lynn are all at least 34 yo and mid at best last year. Lynn is a free agent now. Mikolas and Gibson can walk at the end of next year. That leaves Gray and his 2/$65 mil and the rookie Pallante under control for 2026. Cards have a lot of good pitching prospects in their top 10 but most are 2 years away from being ready. Schmidt has been a slightly above average starter in the AL. IN 263 IP, 260 hits, 261 K/83 BB, 4
10 ERA. Last year he was having a break thru session before having a small injury. He ended up with a 3.58 FIP, 2.85 ERA in 85 IP across 16 starts. He’s 28 and has 3 more years of control. I think he’s the centerpiece of the trade. He’s got the abilities to be a solid #3 with upside. Only reason I think the Yanks might move him is because they might splurge on a few agent SP this winter and they have 4 other starters to turn to in Cole, Rondon, Cortez and Gil. Helsey has one year left which means he could be a rental. But it could be worth the risk.
Rocks immediately get $64 mil, $12.5 and $4 mil of the books for a total of $80.5 mil. I think Schmidt and Stroman plus prospects is reasonable. Gil is no longer a prospect. He’s AL Roy with the makeup up of a #2 if he can stay healthy. He has 5 years of control left. Dominguez should be untouchable aside from a true top 30 mlb superstar. A package of players other than those two or Durbin or Rice is up for debate.
Lindor's Bodyguard
I tell myself stories too. I understand.
rocky7
Sorry, the Yankees have already been down the aging 3rd baseman looking to rebound type like Arenado who isn’t the glove he used to be, and offensively in decline with a big contract…….
websoulsurfer
Matz will get exactly diddly-squat in trade. They may have to add a couple of prospects to get rid of his sorry behind.
Roughed Odor
He was ok in Toronto. He was tough to watch sometimes but somehow he would get through it. I guess that’s why he can be a sub four or almost 6 era guy.
It’s
Cards went from one of the best run organizations in baseball to a dumpster fire. St Louis deserves better.
Blackpink in the area
The team won 83 games last year knucklehead. 2023 was the first time the team had a losing record in what 15 years?
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Everyone is a catastrophist these days – one extreme or the other.
Blackpink in the area
He’s probably a Cardinals fan. One of these guys that thinks he’s entitled to championship baseball every year but doesn’t understand that fans showing up to games is a requirement for a big payroll.
Baseball Expert
The fans record on showing up is impeccable. Little Bill has to produce. He’s not getting money from daddy anymore.
padam
There isn’t a Triple-A team out there that will trade for him.
GarryHarris
But keep your fabulous Manager.
BranchLilDicky
It’s a contract year. Watch for the bounce back.
gbs42
I certainly would expect the $36M reduction in payroll the Cardinals currently have will be far more than enough to fund their expected improvements in player development. Seems like little more than an excuse to cut payroll about $30M.
phenomenalajs
I could see the Mets being interested in Matz as a possible setup man for Díaz if the Cards are willing to send a prospect with him for Paul Blackburn. The Mets may just hold onto Blackburn and roll the dice that he’s ready to start the season after having surgery to repair his cerebrospinal fluid leak. It’s a gamble for both teams that the Cards may want to take to cut payroll. The Mets will also need rotation help if they don’t re-sign any of their free agents. The Mets may hold off on moves like this until Soto makes a decision.
crazybaseballgal
Matz had a 5.08 era last year. Who’s hankering to trade for him unless STL eats a huge chunk of his contract? Even then what’s anybody giving up for him?
Blackpink in the area
FIP is a better stat than ERA.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
But FIP has to be manipulated to resemble something that is scaled to ERA. FIP doesn’t make intuitive sense. ERA is an easy concept to visualize…earned runs per 9 innings. But a FIP of 3.81 is what? (Amount of FIPs given up per nine innings? No,but FIP is scaled to ERA to give it some sort of context, but it’s still a made up number.)
Blackpink in the area
ERA is what happened. FIP is what should have happened with average luck. It’s a better stat for predicting future performance.
JoeBrady
There are other numbers. K/W is a fine number. EV. OPS. FB/GB. It’s a bit like looking at stocks, if someone were to do so. ERA=Net Income, but doesn’t nearly tell the whole story.
Blackpink in the area
If you want to predict future performance, which is what we are doing most of the time, FIP is the best stat to look at. ERA is what actually happened FIP is what should have happened.
stymeedone
Except that what occurred this year determines both ERA and FIP. What a player does next year will result in a different ERA and a different FIP. ERA simply shows the result of this years performance. Last years performance has no bearing on this years result, because it didn’t happen this year. FIP makes the assumption that luck will change in a particular direction. Sometimes, but its like choosing red or black in roulette. YES, if a pitcher strikes out more hitters, there less chance of a fielding mishap. It also means more pitches to get an out, and fewer innings. That means more depth is needed on a pitching staff to cover the innings. Throwing harder, more often, likely means more strains and injuries. FIP takes away the positives of a pitch to contact type. When they remove fielders from the game, maybe FIP will show more correlation to performance. 100 pitches should allow a pitcher to go deeper than 5 innings, but combined with the emphasis on FIP, its changing the game, and not for the better, IMO.
Blackpink in the area
Stymeedone some of what you said simply isn’t true.
FIP is what would happen with average luck and average defense. And that’s what you should look at. If a pitcher is successful because his defense behind him is great he shouldn’t get extra credit for that. If a pitcher gets lucky one year he shouldn’t get credit for that.
We could talk about numerous individual pitchers and look at the stats and i can show you in detail how FIP is a better stat. Look at Greg Maddux. Look at how consistent his FIP was throughout his career.
I am a Cardinals fan. Sonny Gray had a rather pedestrian ERA but a good FIP in 2024. What’s more likely he became a worse pitcher or he was unlucky? I watched all his starts i can tell you firsthand he was unlucky.
FIP is better than ERA. It’s not perfect but it’s the best we got.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Thanks guys, this is the kind of conversation I was hoping for in trying to get my head around FIP and what it is trying to convey. So Sonny Gray’s FIP was lower than his ERA in 2024 because the defense behind him was a worse than average defense? So would this be a valid way to think about FIP then: “FIP is what a pitcher’s ERA -should be- if a league average defense was playing behind him.”
???
Now not only a league average defense, but doesn’t FIP also account for park effects ?? So as to better compare pitchers whose home ballpark is Seattle (pitchers ballpark) vs those in Cincinnati (batters paradise) ??
Blackpink in the area
It’s not just defense it’s also random luck and sequencing. FIP is going to use an average for RISP and for hitting home runs with or without men on base.
I believe it takes into account park effects. Perhaps that’s XFIP. I am not the all knowing expert here I just know FIP is better than ERA. I know that for sure.
Dice 66
They can’t expect to get much!
JoeBrady
At the 2023 trade deadline, Matz was anotgher of the guys I suggested the Cards trade, along with Arenado & Goldie.
And that was also a self-interest since I thought he would be perfect for my RS. He was pitching pretty well at the time. I think the Cards could’ve dumped the entire salary and gotten something better than a lottery ticket.
IMO, at this point, they should just hold him. They still need pitching, and he is only one year away from pitching.at a #3 level. He could also be trade bait if he recovers just a little.
Blackpink in the area
The Red Sox already had a left starter who couldn’t stay healthy. Matz had a poor 2022. Also his contract was backloaded. I doubt he had positive trade value at that time.
Yes they could keep him, at least until midseason when some of the young guys are ready. But it might be in their best interest to give guys like Liberatore and McGreevy a shot because they have earned it.
Between Fedde, Mikolas and Matz I would be shocked if at least 1 of them isn’t dealt before the season starts.
leftcoaster
Who the heck would be the least but interested in Matz?
NoSaint
@leftcoaster
The Jays. They’re in need of a back of the rotation arm, and they’ve had success with him in the past.
Pete'sView
Jays are smarter than that. Aren’t they?
NoSaint
@Pete’sView
-sent Donaldson and 3M to Cleveland for a minor leaguer coming off Tommy John surgery.
– said about Vlad Jr, “I don’t see him as a major leaguer”
– extended Grichuk to a 5? year 50M contract.
– said they aren’t going to add catching this year so they’re going with Kirk and a career MiLB/AAAA catcher.
– for the past 2 seasons they’ve been using a 2B in LF instead of using a LF.
– they have an extra contract year to both Ryu and Springer.
I could go on..
JoeBrady
They’re in need of a back of the rotation arm
=========================
There are plenty of teams that need a back-end SP. Too many posters think that everyone has a #5 SP. A fair amount of teams don’t even have a quality #4.
rocky7
Wow, the Cardinals seem pretty desperate to drum up interest in trades for their players…..
MontrealRays
You can either come out the pen for a contender or start for the white Sox , your move
MontrealRays
This era of cardinals baseball is ridiculous, this is suppose to be a decent team every year , every team has bad years but there is just no direction with this team whatsoever, either flip all these guys and start over for a few years or ride out the careers of your players nobody wants and be competive and go after a snell, Sasaki type , what a joke
Baseball Expert
I bet Slo Mo’s phone is ringing off the hook. Big demand for a pitcher that can’t pitch. That this is a story tells you how pitiful this organization is.
Baseball Expert
Announce a fire sale and watch prices drop.