The Pirates announced that right-hander Mike Burrows was called up to the active roster, while Jared Jones was optioned to the team’s Florida Complex League affiliate. Jones’ demotion is purely an on-paper move, as he made his last start of the 2024 season yesterday and has already amassed a full season of MLB service time in his rookie year.
Burrows was already on Pittsburgh’s 40-man roster, and the 24-year-old now figures to make his big league debut in one of the Pirates’ two remaining games. An 11th-round pick in the 2018 draft, Burrows was making steady progress up the minor league ladder before a Tommy John surgery derailed his career in April 2023.
Starting a rehab assignment in June of this year, Burrows has a 5.26 ERA over 51 1/3 innings split across three minor league levels. The most relevant set of numbers are his 4.06 ERA, 26.6% strikeout rate, and 8.9% walk rate in 37 2/3 innings at the Triple-A level, with Burrows starting nine of his 10 games for Indianapolis. Burrows has only twice made it into the fifth inning in any of his outings since the Pirates have been limiting his workload, but he tossed 91 pitches in his last Triple-A start on September 22.
An appearance today or Sunday will officially make Burrows a Major League player, achieving one big milestone in his pro career. Heading into 2025, the Pirates have Jones, Paul Skenes, Mitch Keller, and Bailey Falter lined up as the top four members of the rotation, leaving Burrows as one of several candidates battling for the fifth starter’s job or (perhaps more realistically) as a depth starter in Triple-A or as a swingman in the big league bullpen. Offseason signings or trades could further shake up the equation, like the trade deadline move that saw the Pirates swap righty Quinn Priester to the Red Sox for infielder Nick Yorke.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Noooo now jones has a demotion on his resume
TheMan 3
where do you see that at, sad? The article includes Jones as part of the pitching staff, his name just isn’t in red
YourDreamGM
“Jones’ demotion”
TheMan 3
the article was referring to next year’s rotation too
YourDreamGM
Sad was just making a sad attempt at humor.
New New Buccoprojectory
Sad to say no wonder your tormented. Or is it your take at sarcasm.
I’m glad to see Burrows up, but why now???
User 537097019
To give him a whiff of MLB hitting. Nothing wrong with that
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Woah I wasn’t expecting hate for a sarcasm joke
YourDreamGM
And you didn’t receive any hate unless it was from whoever I have muted. Theman3 didn’t get it. I just said it was weak. Not hating. Most comedy falls flat. It’s a numbers game you will hit on one eventually.
TheMan 3
jokes are indicated by : j/k
sarcasm: s/
if neither are included on someone’s comment, I will take it seriously
New New Buccoprojectory
What hate??? It’s called critical review. Do you really know what hate is? I suggest you watch an orange guys rally on YouTube, that’s hate.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Haha nice random politics shot high five!
Mendoza Line 215
Actually it is an option used and hopefully they will not need it in the future.
SkenesandSlopes
Many Pirate fans do not know what humor looks like. As you can tell by the responses from these serious fellows.
YourDreamGM
Ortiz is lined up as well and even more so than Falter. Falter is 5th best current option.
YourDreamGM
Next Pirates article I want to see is Cherington fired.
TheMan 3
and the article after that, they fire Shelton and his coaching staff
clean house, Bob Nutting!
YourDreamGM
Probably. Maybe a article both being fired. Or let new gm decide.
Cherington took most the blame. Not only said so but hus firing actions shown as much. Said he expects Shelton back next year. I pushed all in on Shelton. Don’t see how you fire Shelton without firing Cherington. If Cherington isn’t fired then Nutting is much dumber than I thought he was. A new manger will trick the weak minded into positive hope. But I will be saying Cherington needs fired the entire off season warning fans not to fall for the smoke and mirrors. But Cherington fired will be a refreshing clean start and give fans hope that maybe new gm can be better. Actually develop players.
For the record 2025 2026 2027 is already decided. They have a great rotation. Cherington is more than capable of filling holes with veteran free agents and trading good and great pitching prospects for bats. New gm is just to improve player development so the 500 and above possibility continues in 2028 29 30 31 32.
TheMan 3
while Cherington is more than capable of making trades and signing free agents, if his record of this season in terms of trades and free agents is any indication, he won’t improve the team next year
DLC is batting below .200 since being traded for and now has struck out 170 times
Taylor and Rowdy needs no introduction
IKF came over from Toronto with a batting average of . 293 and it’s dropped 25 points since
Nick Yorke doesn’t have enough plate appearances to make a judgment on but Cook seems to be the real deal
Chapman was a good signing but that amount of money should have been used for a power hitter instead
User 537097019
The Reds, Mariners and Marlins have all fired their managers. Each of these guys were arguably better leaders than Shelton and two had better records.
But let’s be serious. Unless Nutting goes or has some epiphany, nothing here is gonna change, regardless of who they bring in
YourDreamGM
DLC IKF are what they are. Plenty of track record there. It’s just small sample size, poor management or they didn’t take well to the mid season trade.
Taylor was best cf available. Rowdy 2nd best 1b. Should have got Santana but if a hitting coach would have got Rowdy fixed sooner and his spring was like his summer he would have been close or even better than. Yeah Grandpal Chapman were good. Olivares was a miss but look at his KC numbers. Not crazy to think he could have been better than what he was.
Only thing wrong with his free agents was the city of Pittsburgh doesn’t allow enough $ to really get the better tier players.
YourDreamGM
Gms win with a low payroll often. Want a name Neil Huntington.
It’s a cheap shot to go after Sheltons record. His first 3 years his gm gave him a team designed to lose 100 games. 2023 he lost cruz and half his rotation for the season. He was 2 and half games out of the playoffs when his bullpen turned into a pumpkin and his gm didn’t give him any help there.
He should have fired Haines (maybe Cherington wouldn’t let him) and he’s a bad tactical manager but still just a manager. Cherington is responsible for Sheltons win loss record give or take a dozen games at most.
User 537097019
I tend to think De la Cruz will be better than what he’s shown. Maybe it’s not saying much but he is better than what they’ve thrown out there
I dunno. IKF is a super utility guy in my mind. Nothing wrong with that. Kind of reminds me of Adam Frazier in that regard
Disagree completely about Tellez, Taylor and Grandal and you can spin it any way you like. Waste of money. Everyone is using hindsight now where Chapman is concerned but the $10M cost was ridiculous
Lastly, no idea what the City of Pittsburgh has to do with free agent salaries. Let’s say it again: Nutting has the money. He just refuses to spend it. And this is yet another item you can spin any way you like, whether it’s the tired, old small market spiel or where he sits in terms of richest owners
It’s complete propaganda
TheMan 3
stop making excuses for the failures of Cherington’s acquisitions
Yeah IKF and DLC are who they are but if they were the best he could acquire in a trade maybe he shouldn’t have made them
Both were traded when the Bucs were still in contention for a playoff position and instead they both sucked and contributed to the downfall including a 10 game losing streak
User 537097019
You can’t get blood from a stone. This describes the rosters Shelton has had to compete with
If you’re looking fire the guy solely on won-lost records, yeah, cheap shot
But his inability to inspire young players, to instill professionalism, to teach the fundamentals, to hold players accountable, to employ winning strategies, to put pressure on defenses …sorry, he should go
New New Buccoprojectory
Yes I’m puzzled too about the city of Pittsburgh comment.
YourDreamGM
“I tend to think De la Cruz will be better than what he’s shown.”
Did bright eyes hack your account? Nowhere to go but up!
All you need is some his wjejhs suggest he is hitting the ball well when it’s in the zone. He just needs better discipline at the plate. His uendbheje shows he is actually hitting fastballs quite well. But his jsjjdjejjge is well below average vs breaking pitches.
User 537097019
Gonzales fielding a ground ball and attempting to make a little league shuttle to 2nd when Stanton is running to 1st—he’d have been out by 10 steps-is another example
Does anyone here know how to play shortstop? Seriously
User 537097019
I don’t need bright eyes’s inane analytics
In fact, I tend to ignore his posts as being fan boy blather, at best. A guy who played video games and got into numbers read outs but never actually played the game
But thanks
YourDreamGM
Don’t just simply disagree. Name the better options Cherington missed out on? Wasn’t the awful names like Hoskins Bellinger fans named. Couldn’t afford them anyways and good because they where negative value contracts by a lot.
TheMan 3
22nd best first baseman? Out of how many?
23?
User 537097019
Again, you play the corporate apologist
Nutting certainly *can* afford these types of players but won’t pay the fee
I mean, get off of it already.
YourDreamGM
“if they were the best he could acquire in a trade maybe he shouldn’t have made them”
So he should have done nothing? Just give up? I would say the bullpen failure hurt the team the most. Bright eyes can probably tell you the offense was better 2nd half vs 1 half of season.
He had 3 options. 1 do nothing. 2 outbid other teams in a insanely expensive trade market and sell the farm system. 3. Do what you can do. 3 sounds best to me and that’s what he did. If you prefer the other 2 options that’s fine.
YourDreamGM
Cherington especially but Shelton for sure has to go. Unless it comes to be that Cherington was micro managing him or something. I won’t miss Shelton at all. Cherington is the problem. Unless he isn’t fired then Nutting is the problem. If Cherington is gm in 2025 I won’t critique him at all. All my blame will be 100 percent on Nutting. Another reason and the number 1 reason to fire him if you are Nutting. If you want to survive you put the blame on those beneath you.
TheMan 3
how many games did Bednar blow and eventually lose in a save situation?
When it was obvious that he didn’t have the stuff anymore to be the closer, why did Shelton continue to use him in those situations?
The fundamentals suck, no trying to advance runners with a bunt, because no one knows how to bunt, base running blunders ( can anyone say Cruz?), not hustling to first base out of the box, admiring what you think is a homer and end up on second in a close throw
Setting a franchise record in strikeouts
The hitting sucks, no discipline, no basic fundamentals and this falls on the manager and his staff not the GM
TheMan 3
IKF might be a good utility player but he has no business batting first.
He draws too few walks then swings at everything no matter where the pitch is thrown
YourDreamGM
He can afford to pay someone 20 30 some million and have them produce drastically less than what they should for that amount and then exercise their player option and do it again? Not if you want to actually win games. Milwaukee can. They have about a million more fans show up and own all the parking around the stadium. They aren’t happy about Hoskins but can afford it. Cubs can easily afford it. Pittsburgh not so much.
User 537097019
Baloney
You ought to work in Nutting’s PR department.
You realize that taxpayers bought that palace the Pirates play in, right? I won’t even go into the sweet tax deals that yet another billionaire finagled with city and state government
You’re aware of concessions, merch and parking. You’re aware of TV money. All of this is the gravy
Ticket sales alone pay almost all of the franchise salaries.
If it wasn’t owner’s mission statement, it’d be a running joke. I’m sure it already is at winter meetings.
But keep spouting the company line
YourDreamGM
All falls on the gm 100 percent. He could have replaced Shelton Haines any time he wanted. “I expect Shelton to be back” Only thing you can fault Shelton for is not quiting his job. I’d keep getting my paycheck too if I was him.
YourDreamGM
If he is pocketing hundreds of millions than good for him. Teams that actually get good attendance and aren’t always in the bottom of attendance aren’t spending anymore than 120 million. No small market team has spent more than 130 million even if their attendance was high and they made world series. I wouldn’t expect 1 owner especially Nutting to break through the ceiling and ruin it for the others.
User 537097019
But you’re contradicting yourself again
You’ve been like others who’ve acknowledged that attendance figures don’t mean all that much. Here, you’re using it as a justification.
PNC only holds 39K
At the very best, the team would have 3.2 million fans if every game is a sellout
But it’s cold here in April.
And the city is no longer top 20 in population
You used Huntington winning with a smaller budget earlier, and even that was a misnomer. Guys like Cutch and Walker were just maturing into big time players. Same with Marte Look what the team did when they were due big contracts.
Cmon Dream.
YourDreamGM
I never said attendance doesn’t matter. Only a absolute idiot would say something like that. I might by a idiot but not absolutely. I don’t remember even ever thinking that. Let’s see you take what a person spends at a baseball game I believe it’s 70 80 bucks whatever it is times 800k a million and you get…. Hold on I am calculating….. You get that it matters!!!!!!
Only one contradicting is you. If other markets have better attendance how could Nutting spend more $ than them or even the same or even remotely close? His payroll should be a lot less. A lot less attendance = a lot less payroll. More attendance = more payroll.
YourDreamGM
But let’s say you are one of the absolutes who doesn’t think it matters. Tv is all that matters. More attendance means more interest in the product. More interest in the product means more people watching on tv. More people watching on tv means more lucrative tv deals. Charging more for advertising.
National tv deals, revenue sharing, and local tv deal matter more than local attendance but attendance matters and a lot.
User 537097019
Again— and the PG expose of a couple years ago will support this—attendance is just one piece of the revenue stream and it’s not the main piece
TV money nationally (which is a secret thanks to MLB’s closed books policy) local TV, merch, concessions, sponsorships and partnerships, other engagement initiatives
Please. Educate yourself
The Pirates garnered $309M in revenue last year. Their operating expenses were $68M
Expenses will bump up a bit thanks to contracts this year. So will revenue
Please. Get off this small market/little money rant. It’s a patently false narrative
User 537097019
“The Pirates garnered $309M…”
YourDreamGM
“Their operating expenses were $68M” That’s why they are working as writers for the pg. Not the brightest minds.
Do yourself a favor and google pirates team payroll 2023. What the best health insurance cost. What it cost to charter a plane. How many plane trips the pirates needed. Hotel rooms. Meal allowance. Not baseball players. Their salaries. President gm scouting analytics. Pension benefits. The equipment. People to maintain equipment. Minor league facilities. International facilities. Draft pick signing bonuses. International signings. Lol it’s hundreds of millions.
TheMan 3
with the collapse of the season in hindsight then yes it would have been better had he not made any acquisitions
Tell us exactly how both IKF and DLC helped this team down the stretch of the last month
In typical Andy Haines fashion they both regressed offensively
YourDreamGM
Nevermind. Don’t Google anything. You read the article and actually believed the operating cost were 68 million. Google won’t help you. Yes they were 68m. Nutting just pocketed 200 million. Awful man.
#MlbRemoveNutting
YourDreamGM
That’s all you guys are is captain hindsight.
User 537097019
That didn’t come from the PG. It’s commonly fact
Now you’re providing a laundry list of expenses and I ask myself if you’re familiar with business ledgers. Just what do you think falls under “operating expenses?”
As for the second portion of your expenses, I would refer you to the PG piece. All of that was addressed in detail. Calling it ‘fake news’ when it involves information you don’t like is a common practice of *losers* everywhere. Don’t be a *loser* my friend
I’d like to debate more but time to work out. Beginning my 11th rewatch of Black Sails. I’ll say hello to Max for you
User 537097019
Uh, Dream. You’re playing the “fake news” angle? Yeah, it works for “some” but all of this is common knowledge devoid of newspaper reporting. Take your own advice and research.
As for hindsight, isn’t that what judging performance is all about? Given your thinking, hiring a bright eyed exec at Joe’s Tech Associates should mean more at performance review than the fact that he actually did nothing for the company for the past year? “Ah, but it was a good signing at the time and he was fun at the company Christmas party?”
YourDreamGM
As a economics major and business owner I always believed operating costs are the expenses which are related to the operation of a business. They definitely weren’t 68m. Maybe they forget the 1 in front of it!!!!!
I wanna meet Blackbeard. Would like nothing more than to be able to craw into bed with Blackbeard right now.
YourDreamGM
No fake news. I take it all back. Bob Nutting is operating a mlb team for 68 million a year and pocketing 200 million. I was wrong. Go enjoy your show.
YourDreamGM
Delete this please. They certainly were 68 million. My account was hacked. 68 million is correct. Like I said, he’s a heck of a businessman!!!!
User 537097019
If you’re surmising that my point is that the rest of the monies between revenue and expenses resulted in pure profit to the ownership, you’re misreading me
The point was, and is, that there is money to sign good players here without going into the red or being unable to gain profits is simply false. That’s all.
User 537097019
As for Blackbeard, sure, but you’d better be on his good side. And not be on the ship when they repeatedly dragged him underneath
Live and long prosper, Dream
TheMan 3
the website “ Stasta” said that the operating costs for the Pirates is $68 million, not the PG
YourDreamGM
Nope. First time ever I was wrong. I totally can see a 68m operating expenses. Look at the players, it’s either pay for your own flights and lodging or not play baseball. They are big on analytics, well judging by the results Nutting never bought new computers. Running on the same computers from previous ownership. Cherington said I need new equipment. Nutting said dude you’re getting a dell. Obviously the scouting and development is all unpaid interns. There’s absolutely no way you would pay people to do such awful work. I believe bright eyes 100 percent is working as a mlb scout. And here is the #1 reason why Manfred and mlb needs to force Nutting to sell the team… He is literally starving Alika Williams to death!!!! “I must keep operating expenses at 68 million!” Nutting said according to the onion news. “If he dies he dies”
Ok I had my fun. In all seriousness I believe you may have got operation expenses and operating income confused. It’s possible when all is said and done Nutting made 68m. So 68m operating INCOME. Could be accurate. Mark Cuban thinks it’s more like “only” 25. Either way 68m expenses isn’t mathematically possible. 40 man roster and prospect signings are over 100m alone.
TheMan 3
as a retired Environmental Scientist, I took a sample of Shelton’s brain matter and the lab determined that it was empty of any substance
TheMan 3
according to Forbes, dated July 2024, the Pirates franchise is worth $1.32 billion, revenue for 2023 was $309 million and operating costs, $68 million
YourDreamGM
These sites are wrong. It’s operating INCOME. It’s possible the INCOME is 68m. It’s not possible for the expenses to be. I have no idea if 68m is correct for the income but it’s definitely not the expenses.
2. I don’t care what the income. No small market has ever spent more than 130m on payroll. I don’t expect Nutting to be a trailblazer and give up his profits. Let’s go with assumption that he is actually making 68m a year. 1 I don’t believe that’s all his, is his title still Chairman? If so he is only getting 30 40 50 70 whatever percent of thw 68m. He could sell the team for lets say as you say 1.3 billion. So making 68m a year on 1.3b is fair.
TheMan 3
Forbes is credible
Mendoza Line 215
Dude- I googled Forbes and they said that the operating income from 2022 was $51.5 M which is close to the $45M that I had calculated based on the Braves data.
I think that I recall that that is an annual return of a little over 3% of his investment.
That is probably the reason why Cuban said that he would not be interested in buying the team.
Nutting is in it for the long term as the key is the continuous annual appreciation of his investment as shown by the current supposed value of the team.
Mendoza Line 215
And that play is a perfect example of why you don’t constantly move players from position to position on the fly even if they are fundamentally sound at their primary position which Gonzalez most definitely is.
Mendoza Line 215
Cherington did the best that he could at the trade deadline.
Hindsight is always 20 20.
User 537097019
They moved Termarr off of shortstop partially because they were convinced that Cruz was the answer there for the next decade
Pure genius
Now, apparently the only guy who can ably play there is Alika Williams, who may float away if a big wind hits the stadium
But since the Cruz move, it’s been the revolving door effect again. Sheesh
User 537097019
And the bullpen breaking down made the Chapman signing look like genius when really, it was a $10m fee for a luxury a sub .500 team can’t afford
TheMan 3
the bullpen partially broke down because the genius, and I use that term loosely, manager misused the pitchers
Not allowing the starters, who are pitching well, haven’t exceeded a pitch count, to go beyond the 6th inning because the genius has the philosophy of relievers pitching the remainder of the game, often times blowing the lead and subsequently losing the game
YourDreamGM
Termarr was never considered a ss prospect. In hs every scout I ever heard said 2b. Didn’t have quickness or arm to play ss. Wasn’t even seen as a good 2b just average at best. Below is a couple scouting reports before the draft if you want to read.
“Johnson is one of the most unique, top-of-the-class high school prospects the industry has seen in years. He’s a 5-foot-8, 194-pound shortstop who probably moves to second base at the next level and is close to physically maxed out, but he’s also one of the most advanced pure hitters to come out of high school since perhaps Joe Mauer in 2001. Johnson manipulates his bat from the left side of the plate like a magic wand, equally capable of turning on mid-90s velocity and showing 60-grade power to the pull or sitting back and slapping a breaking ball or offspeed offering through the 5-6 hole for a softly hit single. He was the top hitter on the showcase circuit and consistently performed no matter the competition and has a lengthy track record as an underclassman with USA Baseball. He has the rare amateur combination of excellent bat-to-ball skills, an advanced approach at the plate, impressive pitch recognition and more power than you’d expect given his frame, thanks to excellent bat speed and precise barrel accuracy. There are few holes to speak of in his game offensively and he has a real chance to be a 70-grade hitter. As a defender, Johnson is likely to move to second base due to limited range and arm strength that fits better on the right side of the infield. He’s sure-handed on balls he gets to and he turns a double play nicely, with quick footwork and a fast exchange, and profiles as an average defender. He is an average runner now, but it would be unsurprising for him to slow down a tick as he reaches physical maturity. Johnson committed to Arizona State late in the process but is expected to be a top-10 pick thanks to his hitting prowess. It’s certainly possible Johnson is selected as a shortstop, but if he is selected as a second baseman, he has a chance to top Delino DeShields (2010, No. 8) as the highest-ever drafted prep player at the position. There’s plenty of pressure on Johnson’s bat given his supplemental tool set, but it’s also hard to point to a recent high school hitter this advanced.”
“A shortstop in high school, Johnson will change positions as a pro because his quickness and arm are more average than plus. His hands work well in the field as well as at the plate and he profiles best at second base, where he should be at least a solid defender.”
“Though he’s a high schooler who projects as a second baseman, Johnson is a potential No. 1 overall choice because he might be the best pure prep hitter in decades. He has a track record of pummeling pitchers on the showcase circuit and some evaluators give his bat top-of-the-scale 80 grades. One scout gave him a double Hall of Famer comparison by calling him a combination of Wade Boggs’ plate discipline and Vladimir Guerrero Sr.’s bat-to-ball skills. ”
“Johnson’s hand-eye coordination and swing decisions make him an elite contact hitter from the left side of the plate. He isn’t fazed by mid-90s fastballs or quality breaking balls, using his quick, compact stroke to drive the ball to all fields. Though his listed 5-foot-10 height might be a bit generous, his ability to barrel balls along with his bat speed and strength could make him a 25-30 homer threat in the big leagues”
YourDreamGM
I can just picture Cherington sitting “alone” in his office reading these “Johnson manipulates his bat from the left side of the plate like a magic wand,” One scout gave him a double Hall of Famer comparison by calling him a combination of Wade Boggs’ plate discipline and Vladimir Guerrero Sr.’s bat-to-ball skills. ” And moaning oh yeah. Impressive comments. Best hitter seen since 2001. Now it’s more like maybe he can be as good as Neil Walker!
SkenesandSlopes
TheMan 3 the fundamentals DOES fall on the GM. The GM and front office orchestrates the foundation that starts from the ground up. Meaning, minor league coaching staff, instructors, scouts. How anyone can put this solely on the manager who has very little say on the hierarchy of an organization makes your opinion laughable.
Is Shelton a bad manager? Yes. Who is responsible for hiring Shelton? The General Manager and his staff. This is a top-down situation. If you want fundamentals to improve you need the top baseball operations personnel to set the foundation that will be carried out by the manager and his staff along with every minor league team within the system.
TheMan 3
yeah it’s the city’s fault that Nutting can’t sign better tier players because when the state taxpayers fund the construction of the stadium, the owner expects another government entity to pay their fair share
what a ridiculous idea
TheMan 3
had he not waited until the last day of the deadline to make a trade, he could have made an offer for Chisholm from the Marlins who was traded earlier to the Yankees
Skeptical
I’m sorry but I think Chisholm would have not worked for the Pirates. From everything I read, he needed some maturing, some reining in of the ego. Stepping into the Yankees’ locker would achieve that whereas stepping into the Pirates locker room would not. I’m not talking about the manager and the coaches, but the players in the locker room. Stepping into the Yankees locker room with Judge, Soto, Cole and others would be a humbling experience for most egos. Stepping into the Pirates locker room much less so. For Chisholm to mature and exceed his potential, he needed to be somewhere where he couldn’t see himself as the biggest fish in the pond.
YourDreamGM
It’s simple economics. A larger population with more income allows a team to spend more $. You could say it’s the cities fault for not watching games but it’s the teams fault for poor marketing and poor product.
YourDreamGM
Cherington did make a offer. The 2nd best offer. Marlins went into the deadline with a poor strategy of targeting a need vs getting the best return available. They wanted POWER. Pirates don’t have power in their system. Not possible to trade with them unless you maybe greatly over paid making a offer they couldn’t refuse. Miami is just like Pittsburgh. All pitching no bats.
TheMan 3
I wonder why they didn’t have power in the minors
TheMan 3
so it’s not really the city’s fault it’s the people who refuse to spend their hard earned money to watch their home town team finish in last place every year while the owner stuffs his pockets with the profits that the suckers spend at the ballpark their taxes paid for
what a racket
TheMan 3
as if DLC has worked for the Pirates?
and they already have a player who is immature.
His name is Oneil Cruz
Mendoza Line 215
Not sure who he could have signed for $10M for a power hitter.There has to be candidates.
The Pirates would have lost 95 games this year without Chapman which would have pleased some posters in that they could have risen a couple of draft places.
Of course they would not have developed him under the current regime.
In the old days good teams could get by with one closer because injuries were relatively rare.I applauded the signing because to me it showed that they wanted to improve.
BC signed him because it was money left over from not getting another starting pitcher because of the ridiculous contracts being handed out.
Trades for young players take two or three years to accurately rate.Both young players that you mentioned seem to have some ability and come from good organizations and BC traded from strength for weakness.
YourDreamGM
It’s your fault for not understanding what I said or my fault for not stating it well. City population and income is what it is. Nutting has never gone all in without attendance and there is no reason to have attendance with the product he is selling. It is what it is. Team looks like it is ready to win so maybe he will go to 100 million. If you want to see 110 120 million you might have to go to PNC park. And if he puts out a good product people will.
YourDreamGM
I would love to see your candidates. All of you. I looked at cf and Taylor again might be the best cf available. Bats are only slightly better and no one comes close to his glove. Pirates aren’t getting Alonso. Walker is a stretch. It’s Santana Rowdy again. Maybe Goldy.
Without signing anyone the payroll will be close to 100 million in a few years. Guys making 700 grand now will be hitting arbitration and will be making 3 5 7 10 12 and in cruz jones Skenes cases even more if they don’t trade them before that happens. So long term contracts are out unless it’s a team friendly extension or something.
TheMan 3
please, DLC’s most prominent stats since being traded for is his ability to swing at everything thrown in his path and missing the majority of them
IKF shares the same attribute
TheMan 3
stop being condescending Dream. You can make your point without it
TheMan 3
I vividly remember you saying that Nutting would allow a $100 million dollar payroll and it was barely $84 million when the season started
Another $16 could have brought in someone better than Taylor or even Rowdy
YourDreamGM
What’s condescending? Hopefully not this “It’s your fault for not understanding what I said or my fault for not stating it well.” That’s just a communication failure. Two people using text instead of voice, using voice to text or typing fast, autocorrect, not proofreading. Easy to have a communication failure. Nothing condescending. If you feel thay why well it wasn’t my intention. Could be either of our faults or bit of both. There is no fault though really as it’s bound to happen.
YourDreamGM
Who said he didn’t allow it? I would speculate that they would have spent 10 or 12 million if that’s what it took to get Perez. I valued him that highly and if you haven’t noticed they think a lot like I do. If the braves didn’t give them Marco for free they would had to sign a pitcher and it would have costed much more. They were hot on Gary Sanchez who would have costed 3x more than Grandpal. Taylor wanted try not to laugh 8 figures and multiple years. He over played himself and the music stopped and he needed a chair. Pirates may have been willing to spend more if he was more reasonable early on. You don’t want Nutting to just throw away $ so he can get to 100 million do you?
*Another $16 could have brought in someone better than Taylor or even Rowdy” I obviously don’t believe this because I said Taylor was best cf available and only Santana was as good or better than Rowdy. Bellinger cost much more than 19m Hoskins wasn’t significantly better and would have cost more than 19m. He signed for similar with Milwaukee but they are good and a good hitters park. Pirates would have to beat it and by a significant amount. And for 20 some million he is equal or slightly better than Rowdy at 3 and much worse than Santana at 5. And with Shelton and he might have been even worse. Bellinger missed as many games as Rowdy slumped for.
TheMan 3
when losing is acceptable it also becomes contagious and this team under this field manager and his staff perpetuates both
User 537097019
Three winning seasons out of the last thirty
Madden, Starkey, Mackey, Colllier all write columns about how pathetic ownership is and what a carpetbagger Nutting is
And still, there are those who defend all of this under the ruse of “small market/limited money.”
Even when one present facts, it’s labeled as “fake news” in some regard
Nothing will change here. Nutting is an astute businessman. The ballpark sells. The occasional nice benefits he does are great PR
for the portrayal of a benevolent franchise
But unless you get a GM like Milwaukee’s who can do well under constraints, will it even matter?
TheMan 3
I vaguely recall two Pennsylvania legislators complaining about how cheap Nutting is last spring
It’s not enough for the fans and sports writers take notice, it’s even worse when elected representatives do the same
TheMan 3
those occasional nice benefits he does through Pirates Charities are a tax write off and from donations made by the public
For over 10 years; there was a home game sponsored by PC, backpacks with trinkets, signed baseballs and memorabilia included in the bags would be auctioned off
You could also buy an autographed home jersey of a selected player that the charity chose
This was the first year this didn’t happen and I have to wonder if it’s because Nutting didn’t want to pay for the trinkets and memorabilia.
In the years this game happened, he donated them
New New Buccoprojectory
2 innings and they yank Skenes??? I don’t want to hear they are watching his innings. Last game of the year. Unless he got hurt today.
TheMan 3
imagine being a Pirate fan who travels to NY to watch Skenes pitch against the Yankees and he only goes 2 innings
No forewarning by the team or worst manager in baseball and these people wonder why they can’t draw fans to their games
Badfinger
The Yankees broadcast knew Skenes was only pitching two innings before the game started.
TheMan 3
I’m talking about the fans that traveled from Pittsburgh to NY, which was explained thoroughly in my previous comment
And nowhere did I mention the Yankees broadcasters
reading is fundamental
New New Buccoprojectory
Man 3. People don’t have fundamentals anymore. Especially when it comes to the MORON managing.
TheMan 3
I vividly remember Shelton saying last month that he wanted to win as many games the rest of the year
I think he either lied or is just too stupid to believe what he says
Joe says...
“It was the right call to sit him after two innings.” – Yankees fans
Mendoza Line 215
Actually,he probably could have gone 5 inningsHis era is 1.96 and Steve Rogers holds the record for this many rookie starts at 1.95.
Even an extra inning if scoreless would have been the cherry on top of the sundae.
New New Buccoprojectory
I agree with you Mendoza..but this pirate management team doesn’t know common sense.
Skeptical
Makes sense to me. Give Skenes the experience of pitching in Yankee stadium against Judge, Soto, etc. and then let Burrows get major league experience and multiple innings pitching. The way it turned out, it was almost as if Burrows started the game. Also, why risk injury to Skenes? At best, the Pirates climb out of last and finish fourth. Not a high ambition.
It does amaze me how many posters are clueless about how to run a business. It doesn’t matter how much Nutting is worth. For budget purposes, it only matters how much revenue the Pirates take in. Revenue has to cover operating costs and provide a profit (this is capitalism after all.). Most of Nutting’s “money” isn’t money at all, but the value of his investments of which the Pirates are probably a significant part. To spend this “money”, he either has to sell part of your investments or borrow against them. Granted there are some owners who have cash cows, are incredibly rich and therefore are willing to throw money away. Nutting is not in that class.
User 537097019
I don’t think I’ve ever discussed how much Nutting is worth. If I’m mistaken, I erred. I don’t expect him to pay out of his own pocket or take from one of his other ventures to pay the price here
That’s not good business and the road to ruin
That’s never been the point. But as fallacious as that thinking is, so is the opposite, which is frequently bandied about when looking at the bottom line here
When Mark Cuban states that Nutting would be a fool to sell the team in light of the profits here, it says something, no?
TheMan 3
Mark Cuban also said that Nutting doesn’t spend a penny because the revenue sharing by other teams pays for the players salaries, ticket sales, tv revenue, his share of both merchandise sales and concessions is pure profit
He said that Nutting would be a fool to give that up
Mendoza Line 215
Nutting is a businessman first and foremost.I said that eight years ago when I first got on this site.
Two years ago I used the Braves records as a public entity and found that the Pirates were netting about $45 M per year based on a $70M payroll and 1.5 M attendance.
They also appreciated in value on average $45M per year.
What this means is he can add $50-60M in payroll if he has a good team and higher attendance and if he does not net any money in that year.
I think that he is willing to do that if the added payroll is justified by creating a good team that can make the playoffs like they had done in 2013-2015.
This management team has not created a good team.
These numbers are hardly accurate but seem to make sense if Cuban said $25M net and the current is as much as $68M.
Pittsburgh is a small market and Dream GM is right inasmuch as that maximum salary total would be in line with other small market teams that have been much more successful.
User 537097019
Sorry my friend, you’re buying the company line here, whether the “company” is MLB or the Pirates themselves
You’re acknowledging the cash windfall on one hand while employing the “small market” and glass ceiling of salaries standard explanations
These guys should be politicians.
We can agree that Nutting is making a handsome profit. Well, everyone except Buctober, who claims he knows for a fact that Brother Nutting reinvests every penny he makes back into the team
A moment please…
Ok. Had an extended laugh
There are so many points I disagree with here
One, I don’t believe Nutting will ever commit to making the necessary improvements here via signings. He never has even in the WC years. He never will. His passion is profits. This is not a baseball guy
Two, I tend to think profits are even greater than theorized as MLB refuses to reveal TV stipends to teams.
Three, with this in mind, wouldn’t it be great to see your monthly bills paid via your job at WalMart but thanks to your pension, 401K and SS, you have amassed a tidy account that can finance your other interests like a summer home, super sports car, travel? In effect, this is what attendance monies alone have afforded ownership where operating costs are concerned. It’s one revenue stream doing all of that lifting. But the other revenue streams as previously described are pure profit
You can carp “small market” or glass ceiling of salaries all you like but it doesn’t make sense. As for Cuban, he’s an extremely intelligent guy and shrewd businessman. His comments reveal a great deal here
TheMan 3
If in reality, Nutting was reinvesting every cent of his profits on an annual basis, this team would have a world class player development program, Top 10 prospects and be competitive every season
And if he really was and none of the above had come to fruition, Cherington and his merry band of failed managers would have already been looking for jobs else where’s because he isn’t the type of businessman to invest in a losing project
Mendoza Line 215
You read into my post too much.
I was stating the supposed facts as you brought up from Forbes.
They matched what my rough calculations were and seemed to mirror Cuban who was probably interested in higher annual returns and shorter holding time.
As mentioned before one of the things that you and Paul point out regards unwritten promises that he made of which I cannot comment.
But given his current supposed financial situation with the Pirates making 3.5%-4% annual return,what should he do regarding payroll?This is based on $50M annual income and appreciating his investment by $45M per year based on $70 M payroll.
What would your annual % return goal be?
How much would you spend on payroll?
Keep in mind you are a long suffering Pirate fan while Nutting is a successful businessman who knows next to nothing about baseball.
He uses his head while you use your heart.
User 537097019
And that’s why I have to be reluctant where assessing Cherington’s signings are concerned. We have no idea what his parameters are. No sense of budget
His failings have been many but if the “small market” carping is in actuality Nutting giving him a prescribed economy class budget then as Mendoza says, he’s done what he can with Mr.Potter as his owner
My point of departure in signings is, given some of the players he’s brought in during his tenure, why sign anyone of such dubious abilities? What did VanMeter add here? Gamel? Tellez? Taylor?
I refer to these signings and remember the words of Branch Rickey, when he explained to HR champ Ralph Kiner why he was being traded. “”Son, we can lose 100 games without you”
User 537097019
Very well analyzed, Mendoza, and forgive me. Dream’s pretzel logic sometimes gets to me. All a part of his genius, I guess
Nutting is the HoF businessman Dream claims he is. No argument there
My belief about professional sports franchises is that you need to spend money to make money. It’s disconcerting that as an owner, this mantra is upended here with the idea that one can spend very little money and instead make MORE money. Such is MLB’s financial structure, another Ponzi scheme in which billionaire owners can’t and won’t lose
Mendoza Line 215
Dude- No problem.
I boiled it down so I could understand it.
Nutting spent a little over an average of $96 M during the period of 2015-2017 on salaries.With the current very high average inflation rate of 5% over the last four years and say 5% for the previous four years compounded we are looking at $120M total salary now that is the minimum that he should spend if they have a good team.
As Dream GM points some of these young players are going to command much higher salaries in the near future.
He has signed three to long term contracts that are reasonable as long as they produce up to their assumed capabilities.One has done so,one has not seen all of the votes come in,and one has underproduced.These are the extensions that Dream GM says are good to do.
The previous GM thought outside of the box and introduced fielding shifts and young player extensions to baseball.
The Pirates batted 500 on them,winning with Cutch and Marte but losing with Tabata and Polanco.That is what they are batting now with Reynolds,Keller,and Hayes.
But if someone did a study with even moderately priced free agents over the last ten years would the teams be batting 500 or more like 350?
My point is that Nutting probably broke even during the aftermath of the recent bountiful period so he probably did not make anything over those three years as his return would have been 30% less than now.
Haters are going to hate no matter what facts are shown.
My goal has been to put some facts in front as I see them to round out the negativity surrounding Nutting.
New New Buccoprojectory
Chances of skene’s being injured in his last start of the season is minimal. You can’t think like that as a manager, but of course the MORON is incapable of thought.
At least give him 5 innings. If you want to think your way of injuries, then they shouldn’t even have started him.
TheMan 3
or not played the game at all since everyone might get injured
Slider_withcheese
….Now if only they could get some offense to help that staff out, they may be a .500 team next year.
Mendoza Line 215
They need to stabilize their bullpen too which was quite good last year.
They need new management to maximize their ML quality.
They could actually be a reasonably good team with the proper development and management and with a few key additions.
mlb1225
Great to see Burrows up (even if it is a month and a half too late). He could be an important cog in their pitching staff next year.
New New Buccoprojectory
1225. Burrows has been struggling and limited after Tommy john. So there was no sense in calling him up earlier
mlb1225
He was still shaking off some rust, but his stuff looked fine at Triple-A. His last three outings before getting promoted weren’t good, but had a 3.12 ERA, 25% strikeout rate, and 7.8% walk rate for Indy throughout his first 7 games.
User 537097019
-I’m thinking that the idea here was to send Jones, Skenes and Burrows to the off season with a great deal of optimism. As much as I think Shelton needs to go, I can’t fault that sentiment at this point These games mean nothing and where Skenes is concerned, why would you risk injury in the drizzle?
-Nice to see Cruz do his customary jog on a ground ball here in the 6th.
-4 homers in 6 innings for the Pirates. I can hear Cherington now, saying they don’t need an Alonso or Walker
-I like Burrows. It’s just a small sample size but it’s hard to see him supplanting Ortiz as a starter here or even Falter, Bubba or a healthy Oviedo, for that matter
YourDreamGM
Burrows is up for a reward. Nothing more. He got injured, had a tuff road back. We appreciate the hard work. Keep working hard this off-season. Unless injury or he is Jared Jones so impressive we have to give him a spot he is just depth. What are the odds the rotation is as healthy next year? I imagine Burrows gets his shot or goes to the pen. He isn’t a slam dunk starter. Maybe gets traded since Cherington can’t develop position players.
User 537097019
They could just send him a box of cookies and a gift certificate to Starbucks in it was just appreciation
It was in line with why they dropped Taylor and Tellez. Give the kid a shot. Why not?
YourDreamGM
Teams do this all time. It’s a reward. 1 game isn’t a shot or to evaluate him. His pitches are his pitches. They know what he has and can do. He’s a top 30 prospect, he was going to get a shot. Just a reward and making mlb debut can be uncomfortable. Let him get that nervousness out now when games don’t matter.
YourDreamGM
Hey Mike, you want some cookies or a mlb paycheck and benefits?
User 537097019
In one post, you offered both ends of the argument here. Yoy.
YourDreamGM
There is no argument. Calling prospects up in September is standard practice. Calling them up later than it should have taken is standard Pirates practice.
whyhayzee
Instead of yoy shouldn’t it be oyo?
User 537097019
Nah. I was thinking of what Myron Cope would have said to Dream. Yoy and double yoy
letitbelowenstein
Burrows got in 3-1/3 innings today. Worst-case, it gives him something to tell his grandchildren.
YourDreamGM
Unless his arm falls off he will be back but yeah any MLB time is better than none.
New New Buccoprojectory
Reds need a manager, trade the moron to the reds for a new bat, a new ball, 5 used jock straps, and a bag of seeds. That’s about all the moron is worth.
TheMan 3
no seeds though. Hayes would pocket them and get distracted by eating them during a game next season
Mendoza Line 215
The Pirates should try to get Schumaker,and quickly.
His other choices are the Reds,White Sox,and Mariners at the present time.
A good manager can win more than lose with this team.
A good manager would bring along a good hitting coach who would want to use his own methods and not adhere to those of a failed GM in this regard.
User 537097019
I said before that Jim Leyland would be a good get for this franchise as an assistant GM in charge of baseball ops or something
But unbelievably to me, the man is going to be 80 in a couple months. He deserves to be left alone for quality time.
Maybe Buck Showalter? The kid is only 68
Point is, again, it wouldn’t take a great deal to have this team contending but it starts with a manager who’ll get the most out of the kids and is strong on fundamentals and development
I’d still say they need a banger and need to spend on one of the 1st basemen who’ll hit free agency to anchor the lineup, but I don’t want to enrage people who think this owner reinvests every penny he makes back into the team
But hey, .500 ball is fine
Mendoza Line 215
I like Buck Showalter and he would not put up with the shenanigans that Shelton does.
I cannot believe that Leyland is that old because he is not too much older than me.
But you are right I doubt that he would want the job.
Mendoza Line 215
I had another thought that could be a diamond or could be a stone.
I would hope that Nutting would think outside of the box and take Bob Walk and Kevin Young separately and treat them to an expensive lunch or dinner to pick their brains as to what is wrong with the organization.They may be subtle in their answers and Nutting may have to read between the lines,but he could do the same thing with Leyland as I would think that he would still have contacts in MLB.
TheMan 3
if Nuttimg thought outside of the box, Cherington would have been fired by now
SkenesandSlopes
If Nutting thought outside the box, Cherington would have never been hired.
Mendoza Line 215
New-The Reds turned that deal down.
They wanted Paul Skenes thrown in.
YourDreamGM
Good enough work for now. I know small brains likes to see the number of comments hidden so I shall return later so I don’t disappoint.
Mendoza Line 215
Actually regarding Alika Williams and his weight loss,my contacts tell me that the reason for it was that Rowdy Tellez was not allowing him to eat any of the post game spread and taking it for himself.
This was the real reason for the waiving of Tellez as Williams had to be sent to AAA to regain weight.
whyhayzee
Error in Judgement had a nice day.
whyhayzee
Well, he did foul 5 pitches off.
Skeptical
While I am hoping that at least Shelton and Haines will be gone soon, I hope that the Pirates win tomorrow and the Reds lose so.at least the Pirates don’t finish in last place. Doesn’t make up for the crappy season nor diminish the disappointment and pain,but it still would be nice.
YourDreamGM
Rooting for the reds to get better draft pick odds? Cherington needs the highest pick he can get.
TheMan 3
why, so he can draft a clone of Davis?
YourDreamGM
1 draft spot could be the difference between getting a Connor TJ or a Davis. You don’t know where the drop off will occur in the draft.
Mendoza Line 215
The Pirates have now won as many as last year.
If they could win tomorrow the Cherington/Shelton team would have improved in win totals every year.
Still no reason to keep them.
YourDreamGM
If you were told in fall 2019 the wins would increase every single year you have signed up for that instantly. Hope they got Cherington on a 10 or 20 year deal! By 2030 something they will be over 500!
YourDreamGM
What I am hoping for tomorrow is for Granpal to catch or dh. Batting .296 since July 5. And for Hill to pitch. 2.05 era like to see him get under 2.
Mendoza Line 215
You must be talking Tim Hill.
Previously I thought that you meant Rich Hill!
Mendoza Line 215
Grandpal has improved as the year wore on,
Wish I could say that about Mitch Keller.
Mendoza Line 215
Yes but they started with equivalent of 51 and if they will win the last game it will be the second time for only a one game increase.
I do not know why Nutting does not listen to all of us here because we know more about baseball than he does!
YourDreamGM
He does listen to me. Well besides failing to add Tim Hill. But I wanted Santana Rowdy Perez Gonzales. I wanted TJ Skenes Connor. Zero need for me to strive to buy a baseball team because Pirates pretty much do everything I would do other than develop young players. Fire Cherington on Monday. Maybe next gm can find some coaches.
Mendoza Line 215
We shall see if he does listen to you if he fires Cherington et al.
User 537097019
I’m at a loss to understand who would brag that the Pirates do everything that you would do. Other than player development. Cough
Perhaps you should be known as YourNightmareGM
Last off season was the poorest for signings. Ridiculous
Poor player development, true, and poor scouting where existing MLB players who eventually matriculate here via trade or signings, and subpar drafting. (Yeah. I know this comment rubs you the wrong way)
Chintzy owner. Hockey guy for president. A guy in over his head as GM. And a guy who wishes to be players’ uncle as manager
Yeah, being of like mind is something to glow about
TheMan 3
you forgot about the hitting coach who was previously fired by the Brewers for failing to improve their offense under his leadership then coming here by Cherington and showing why his previous team fired him
This team has regressed in every aspect of offense under Haines, they have yet to hit .240 as a team and set the franchise record in strikeouts, a franchise that is 138 years old
otherwise, you hit the nail on the head, OldDude
YourDreamGM
Free agent signings were great. Perez was A+ just like I said. 2.61 era on a real team with real coaches and real analytics department. If I avoided players just because the Pirates aren’t capable of getting the best out of them there wouldn’t be any free agents signed. Grandpal hit well all season. “You just weren’t able to see it” “Your eyes lied to you” It’s true. You can go back to July 4th and read what some random commenter said about him. Basically he was always hitting well just extremely unlucky. Anyways hitting near 300 since. 2 million? Thats a bargain. His knowledge to give to Bart Davis and the young pitching is worth that alone. Taylor was best cf available. Now he should have been a backup but other teams paid 2 or 3 times more for lesser players. Chapman nuff said. Rowdy could obviously hit, unfortunately he needed some coaching and unfortunately didn’t get it until 2 months have passed and unfortunately it wasn’t from the Pirates. Marco had a 2 something era until he unfortunately got hurt. They filled every hole on a team in a small market, with crap attendance, owned by Bob Nutting. That’s not easy to do. Pirates fans just like to parrot they should have signed better free agents having little to no knowledge of what free agents are available. Ones that do give names are ridiculous. 1 they afford them. 2 they had awful seasons.
TheMan 3
Carlos Santana was available but cheapskate Cherington wanted to save $2 million dollars and instead signed the fattest and slowest player in baseball to man first base
then the spent $10.5 million dollars on a closer that could have been used on Santana, using the other $5 million on a reliever
No disrespect Dream but making excuses for this franchise is actually beneath you
User 537097019
You’re using hindsight to justify Chapman, a tool you frowned on yesterday. To reiterate, a sub .500 team doesn’t need the luxury of two closers. It was a ridiculous signing, especially at his price. Now that Bednar has struggled, the peanut gallery is chiming in about what a great signing it was
Perez is a BP pitcher. Marco about the same. Thanks to injury, yeah, they were a necessary evil
I didn’t get the need for Taylor then, best CF available or not, and I don’t get it now.
We can debate “afford” until the cows come home. And we have
As for attendance, the draw in this town is the ballpark and not the minor league team that plays there. That they draw as they do for a team that’s been to the playoffs three times in 30 years is somewhat remarkable to me. This is another ownership sound bite—blame it on attendance. Hilarious. Show some semblance that this owner and his franchise want to win and Pittsburghers will come out to support it.
YourDreamGM
What you said can’t be true. If he didn’t get Santana because of 2 million he certainly isn’t going to spend 10.5 for a guy who plays 2 or 3 innings a week. He preferred Rowdy.
I wanted Rowdy. I wanted Santana too. Year before the added both Santana and Choi. Going with Joe instead of Santana was the problem. Which lead to Olivares over Joe in rf.
YourDreamGM
No hindsight. Here’s what I said in the article when they signed Chapman.
“Grade C. They paid the price they should have paid. I endorse the move and like it. I would endorse another starting pitcher as well. Just a 4 or 5.”
Looks like a fair assessment to me.
YourDreamGM
“Perez is a BP pitcher” Tell that to the playoff bound Padres who have very much enjoyed him as a starter. You are going to do better than me putting a 2 something era starter into the bullpen? I don’t think so.
YourDreamGM
“We can debate “afford” until the cows come home. And we have”
There is no debate. Similar size markets with far far better attendance after receiving massive additional revenue from long playoff runs have never spent more than 130 million in the history of baseball. It’s a fact. There is no debate. Only something wrong with you mentally that you can’t accept a fact. Now if Nutting wanted to own a business that didn’t turn a profit and if his co owners all agreed to just have a ownership stake and not receive a profit then sure he could spend significantly more $.
YourDreamGM
If you spend $ and win games then attendance goes up. But if you fail to win then you are selling off Reynolds Keller and selling your ownership to Bob Nutting type. Don’t think Pirates fans want to see that again.
TheMan 3
players whether they are positional or pitchers have a strange tendency of doing better with the team they are traded to than with their time in Pittsburgh
Perez is just one example
TheMan 3
then the real question is why did he or you for that matter prefer Rowdy?
Santana is a switch hitter not to mention that he was a finalist for a Gold Glove at first base last year
YourDreamGM
I wanted both. Just like Choi and Santana last year. You did see what Rowdy did this summer right? I certainly posted his stats. Image that for an entire season and with more power. That’s why they wanted him. Santana is older, really older. I am sure you know the saying rather a year too early than a year too late. That’s why. Age doesn’t bother me though. They wasted 4 million on Yoshi they could afforded to lose 5 on Santana. Maybe they didn’t like his personality. You know the hustle be a professional thing he has going on. No one else on the team is like that. I think we all agree I know everything and even I have no idea if Santana will be as good next year or fall of significantly. You have to stop playing baseball at some point and it hits you fast and hard. I would bet on another not as good but useful season but can’t say for sure.
TheMan 3
why in the world would you want both Rowdy and Santana? Choi was a bust last year platooning with Carlos and was a waste of money
Rowdy this year was a waste of money
Santana is a switch hitter and really doesn’t need to be platooned except an occasional day off and Triolo could have been his replacement
Connor Joe isn’t a good defender at first base
but I will wait for your condescending response Dream
YourDreamGM
“why in the world would you want both Rowdy and Santana?” Ummm because I like good players? A fan of depth? Fan of having a veteran pinch hitter on the bench vs say Alika Williams? Ok now that’s condescending but you asked for it!
Choi wasn’t a bust, he was hurt. When he came back healthy he was good, so good he was traded with Hill for a huge upside young prospect. Not that they are likely to develop this prospect or any prospect but you still gotta try I suppose.
TheMan 3
he was out for most of the season, therefore, he was a bust
Paint it anyway you want, he barely played because he was injured and was in effect; a bust and waste of money
please he was traded because he was on a one year contract and that’s what this franchise does with players they will lose in free agency
they trade them
TheMan 3
if Rowdy is your definition of a “ good player “ perhaps it’s time to raise the bar a tad higher
YourDreamGM
Not everyone is smart as you Paul being able to know when players will get hurt. They just hope for the best. And yeah SD just traded for him because they are nice.
YourDreamGM
Not just good. All star performance after he talked to his childhood coach and got straighten out.
TheMan 3
I always get a chuckle when we exchange opinions, Dream. Today is no exception
YourDreamGM
I am pleased to here that. Didn’t give any opinions though. Teams don’t take players they don’t want unless they are bribed. Tellez ops june july august was above all star level.
TheMan 3
how was his ops in april and september?
YourDreamGM
Don’t care as that is irrelevant to the context.
User 537097019
On the contrary, it has everything to do with the debate. When MLB determines that the season should be compressed to June, July and August, your factoid here will be relevant. Otherwise, it amounts to a piecemeal look at what the guy did while ignoring the overall picture
YourDreamGM
“Tellez ops june july august was above all star level.”
Well aware of what he did in April May. Remember when you all wanted to get rid of him and I said why he is about to start hitting? I clearly stated he hit like a all star for those 3 months listed and only those 3 months. Obviously he hit like dog crap the other months and below average for the season.
User 537097019
I never wanted to get rid of him, Dream. I questioned why he was brought here to begin with
panj341
If you take away Paul Skenes, a once in a lifetime player, they are actually a worse team that has digressed.
Time to clean house.
User 537097019
They have elements here that if there was a decent—just decent—group of instructors here at every level, the team could at least compete
But that’s all oddly absent here. From demanding guys hustle at every turn, to stressing focus to mechanics of hitting, fielding etc
Gonzales’s odd play at short yesterday is an example. Two balls hit to center are another. Did anyone catch Cruz bare-handing a single that came to him? How about his making a ridiculous, needless throw that somehow Yorke was able to corral on another single that should have been a routine throw to 2nd? Just to show off his cannon arm?
Is anyone coaching these guys?
TheMan 3
sometimes it seems like Cruz’ mind is somewhere other than on the field, whether it’s playing center field or running the bases
TheMan 3
Not losing tomorrow and not finishing in last place just gives Cherington ammunition to say that both Shelton and Haines are the right choice to bring this team to the next level in 2025
User 537097019
It’s ok. We’ll spend the winter hearing about how close they are
Skeptical
Sadly, I think if the Pirates had finished the year with a ten game losing streak, Cherington would still find ammunition to say that both Shelton and Haines are the right choice to bring this team to the next level in 2025. Not sure, there is anything that could convince Cherington otherwise. Heck, if the Pirates in 2025 break the White Sox record for most losses in a season, Cherington would probably say, “See, we made it to the next level.”
Pickle_Britches
Never heard of him. After looking at his milb stats I understand why. Good luck
YourDreamGM
To know minor leaguers would take watching minor league baseball or at the very least following top 30 prospects via articles or podcast or something. Most prospects don’t get the coverage anywhere else unless they are college stars #1 pick etc. Anyone who does that is well aware of who he is.
User 537097019
I see bright eyes muted me. Gee, where will I get the fascinating data that tells me not to believe what I see now? And you say he’s a favorite here? Legend in his own mind
YourDreamGM
Maybe used to be favorite? Used to be alright. Muted me long ago but use to talk to me all the time. Heck he would praise me and tell me how brilliant I was. Something the rest of you fail to do often enough. He would ask me questions. Pick other people’s brains. Open minded and desire to learn. Now it’s just 3 things. 1 say something exactly like what was in the article. 2 mumbo jumbo data that no one cares about. 3 captain obvious stuff. I dunno. Bright eyes was a compliment. I talk about things that no one else would understand but bright eyes did!!! Now it’s pure sarcasm but a great nickname imo.
User 537097019
I’ll say it again. You and the numbers nerd against TheMan, Mendoza and I in choosing players for a team
You and your buddy can use your analytics
We’ll use our eyes and knowledge of the game
And in a 7 game series, we’ll beat you every time
Every time.
TheMan 3
if you’re looking to be praised, run for president and while you’re campaigning tell your supporters how much smarter you are than everyone else
They will kiss your behind and provide the praise you so desperately seek
Mendoza Line 215
Dude- Mendoza would use analytics,but not to the extent that many GMs do.
I saw Matt Klentak fail in Philadelphia because he was an Ivy League grad who was married to them.He would not even listen to his scouts.
I believe that the reason that many swear by them is that they are very familiar with computers through their entire lives and the numbers generated are simple.They can always blame failures on the computer results.
Use of statistics are sometimes meant to predict the future.Sometimes good,sometimes bad.
I used computer models through my engineering career.They were quite accurate.
I tried to date a model,but she turned me down!
Once in management,there were no models to help me make decisions.One had to learn about people.
Everyone knew to bring in a left handed reliever against a left hand batter.
But why is you best HR hitter batting second?With the bottom of the Pirates order his home runs will usually be with no one on.So what if he gets 17 more at bats.They will generate less runs.
Slaves to statistics are doomed to failure as too many things can change with humans involved.
YourDreamGM
You won’t beat me. Wouldn’t come close. It’s hilarious you think I don’t do traditional scouting. More hilarious you don’t mlb teams do. You wouldn’t have Bart. Would have released Rowdy Grandpal just right before they started destroying the baseball. Wouldn’t have had Santana the previous year. I’d have even better players that the Pirates weren’t smart enough to get. Your drafts would be terrible taking the big names Kumar Lieter Crews. Maybe you wanted Skenes but majority of fans wanted Crews. You would take TJ over Holiday because you thought he was a SS. You guys don’t think attendance matters and that Nutting can spend much more than he can. You would sign negative value contracts you couldn’t afford. Make awful trades because you don’t have a clue about prospects. Basically have a team in a financial nightmare with 20 straight seasons of losing. Can you imagine that. I do better than Cherington putting in hardly any work alone. Imagine focusing on improving the pirates for 16 to 18 hours a day with hundreds of employees under me? I would do more scouting if I could. I try to catch 2 to 4 innings of a game a day. Doesn’t always happen. And it’s not easy to do. When I’m retired and if still enjoying baseball I can find more time. Until then not only are analytics useful but necessary. Every single team uses them. Some teams so well it allows them to compete and beat with teams that have 2 or 3 times more payroll. But you guys “using your eyes” are going to do better? Can’t believe anyone would say something so ridiculous. And even if true you are just one person. Rays guardians every team has numerous scouts. Yes these teams aren’t ran by a computer. By saying I don’t want analytics is saying I don’t want to have all the available information before I make a decision. You would be absolutely awful.
User 537097019
Haha. Hilarious.
You misrepresent me well here
I have never said that I would do away with analytics. Are you sure you’re not running for office? Instead, I said they are over valued and overstated. Mendoza gave a good example of a GM whose love affair with them led to his demise
Absolutely awful? You launch into some missive about scouting when the issue is putting together a team for a 7 game series. The discussion isn’t about prospects. It’s not about guys the Pirates could have drafted or signed and how you’d have done better
YourDreamGM
Teams don’t use analytics nearly enough or their analytics stink. If they did they would have Joey Bart and Tim Hill. Perez would have got more than 8 million. I shouldn’t be able to see it and not them. No idea what these teams are doing. Pirates and Yankees seen it or lucked into it. But there should have been competition.
YourDreamGM
Come on now. We all seen your interactions with bright eyes. He tries to show you something you get all snarky and smart as. You clearly don’t understand it and want to hear nothing of it. He again nicely tries to explain and again you get rude snarky. So much so he finally had to mute you. You deserved it imo and it took to long. Now you are champion of analytics! You want to use them but just never do and don’t want to learn about them. For the record I don’t have a problem with you at all. But the constant crazy rants and getting banned should have been a wake up call. They are banning you for a reason. Maybe you are like me and are self aware and this is your thing. Your online persona. Yes I am not this “confident” in real life. If not you might want to take a hard look in the mirror. Talk to someone. You come back and are nice and fun to talk to, then you get less and less enjoyable, then someone says something about the orange man or god bless you and well you know you are gone for a week and back with a new screen name. I hope you figure it out. Really hope it’s some sort of a performance. If so fantastic performance. If not maybe relax a bit. Ok so you just strongly prefer scouting and don’t value analytics highly but don’t want to do away with them. Just say that. No need for haha hilarious should run for president unless you are doing a performance. I don’t think that’s the case though.
User 537097019
In response, all I’ll say is Samuel ripped bright eyes and analytics lovers everywhere a new one last time out. I’m sure he was muted for that effort, too
You should have printed Samuel’s response d and made a poster of it for your den
The game is still played on the field and not with joysticks. Guys who are somewhat athletic play it and guys who aren’t sit in front of data, looking for meaningless consistencies.
Fan boy blather seems to excite you as much as using pretzel logic
YourDreamGM
You are Revitalized! I’m happy.
I don’t pay any attention to Samuel. Few do. Maybe he has been revitalized as well.
Don’t pay any attention to bright eyes either. His analytics are old and obsolete. Never seen him say anything useful. What’s he ever predicted? Absolutely nothing. Well I take that back. He told me that the Pirates would get a wild card in 2022 and contend for division in 2023. Other than that it’s Bednar needs to be better or won’t be the closer or Burrows could factor in next year. Wow! I was just saying from the interactions you had with him you didn’t come off as a fan of analytics. If you asked him or anyone if you were pro neutral or anti it would be anti. Sure you are not 100 percent anti.
Disagree about pretzel logic. It’s just logic. What’s the point of owning a business worth over a billion and not making $? 50 60 million or whatever sounds more than fair to me. Nutting either actually likes baseball or very very risk adverse. I would have to make 100 million minimum personally. Sure the big prize is selling the company but until then making 50 or 60 million off of a billion and some is very reasonable. I don’t have a billion dollar company but percentage wise I make a heck of a lot more than Nutting. He would have made a ton of more $ elsewhere. Like I said, loves baseball or refuses to take even the slightest bit of risk.
User 537097019
You know, the finale for season 2 of Black Sails is the greatest such finale ever. Simply incredible writing, portrayals and cinematography.
But with that in mind, the jump to season 3 is a bit odd. You’d have thought the new alliance between Flint and Vain would have carried over but is somehow gone instead
Guess that’s my only criticism about the show’s writing —one small detail. Kind of went into a different direction and left that idea behind
As for the banter between Dream and I, it’s all good natured. Whether it’s TheMan3, Mendoza, or Skeptical, among others, it’s a great site. Don’t have to agree. Just a lot of good viewpoints here all looking for the same thing: a contending team before we all turn 80
YourDreamGM
The Charleston scene is incredible. Love it. I think the final season is weakest but not weak. If everyone watched television pirates instead of baseball pirates they would probably have more enjoyment.
Fan fanatic fanatical. Hard to see things clearly sometimes. I say things fans don’t want to hear. Won’t spend. Can’t spend. Players who won’t amount to much. Everyone should disagree. But somewhere deep now you probably know Nutting can’t spend much more. And even if he could it wouldn’t be enough to matter. It’s never going to be enough to compete with 200 300 million. And if Nutting could spend more so could NY LA etc. Not like they aren’t turning a profit as well. And they get draft picks too and trying to develop them. To contend you have to do everything better than teams with far superior resources. Huge hill to climb. Amazing they are as good as they are. Maybe next year the bullpen will be better, won’t collapse and they can get a playoff spot. Fans hate losing but losing is the Pirates only weapon. Big dawgs have to keep their players because they are always winning. Pirates get to trade their players to them and deplete their farm. Pirates get to draft in the top 10 vs 20 or 30 something. Losing is the Pirates super power.
User 537097019
The finale for the series was epic, too. Rackham’s narration and the Flint speech were unforgettable and really, opened the door to a spin off
Aw, but why do a spin off when studios can provide more Marvel comics types, superheroes and CGI-tinged series that are horrible?
When discussing ownership, you tend to think fans wish for extremes. Maybe some do. But the point is really simple here and I’m sure you see it:
They do have pieces here to contend. They are going to have pitching. They have some foundation in Reynolds and perhaps even Cutch at this late stage. They have kids who simply need to be developed as players and human beings in the world of professional athletics.
I don’t know of anyone who thinks this franchise can compete with the big dogs for any length of time. Maybe a hot run here or there but over a season or more? No
I don’t know of anyone who thinks the Pirates can go after a Soto-type salary.
These are pipe dreams
On field management should be replaced. The player development department needs fresh faces both here in Pittsburgh and throughout the minors
But let’s look at a lineup that would not only be a pipe dream but a formidable offense :
An infield of Hayes, Gonzales, Alonso, fill in the blank at short
An outfield of Reynolds, Cruz, De la Cruz
Some combination of Endy and Bart at C
Some combination of either catcher, Cutch at DH
There are guys like Cook and Yorke who look like comers. IKF plays anywhere Triolo is your glove man. Perhaps Peguero is bench
I’ve given up on Davis, Suwinski, Bae, Williams. It’s time to move on
Alonso is a pipe dream, sure, but someone with similar pop adds a serious piece to
upgrade your offense.
They’re at a real crossroads here. What does adding a Santana instead seriously accomplish? Or another Taylor-type?
I understand what you’re saying above but I don’t think anyone is hoping for extremes.
TheMan 3
paragraphs are your friend
TheMan 3
I do not expect them to compete with the big dawgs, but I do expect them to give it their best effort and this season they failed miserably
You’re not going to do much when your offensive numbers rank near the bottom of the league in almost every statistic and rank second in strikeouts
This current team lacked any semblance of consistency or confidence in their plate appearances. They also lacked plate discipline
You need base runners to score runs, strikeouts won’t make that happen
What this team will need next year is leadership. Quality leadership. Shelton doesn’t provide what is necessary to give players the confidence to win
YourDreamGM
Alonso will probably be a awful contract. We’ll see. All those players are flawed and future up in the air but I would take my chances with Davis Suwinski over Yorke Cook Peguero. Bae Williams are toast. Hayes back might be toast. IKF just a guy. Cruz even less. If the bullpen holds up they will find success. Could make a trade for a impact player. See what happens.
User 537097019
Disagree. Suwinski is finished here. The move of Cruz and trade for De la Cruz says as much. And really, the kid needs a change of scenery
I hung on to Davis as long as I can. Defensively, there’s no place for him. And his bat makes him strictly a pinch hitter. If that
I like the fire of Cook and Yorke. It’s no surprise they’ve come from other franchises and joined zombies like Hayes and Cruz. You need more of them, not less
I’ve listed Hayes in my original lineup only because this ownership inexplicably called him the cornerstone of the franchise and gave him an outrageous contract. Some cornerstone. And there’s no market for him. But hey, yeah, it’s all about his back
I’m betting Bednar will be fine
And aren’t ALL big time contracts really “awful?”
Still, Pete here, or Walker here? As an opposing pitching coach, you look at this team differently
YourDreamGM
You need good players and they don’t have enough.
SkenesandSlopes
Correct Dream. It is not the effort, it is the talent.
YourDreamGM
Davis and Suwinski are good prospects. Not blue chippers but they have power. Maybe the new gm can develop them. If Cherington is back they are done for. Everyone who can’t develop themselves are done for.
Mendoza Line 215
The Pirates have kept him on the 40 man roster for at least two years so they must regard him fairly highly.
TheMan 3
The team is the 7 strikeouts shy of 1500 for the season. They already broke the previous record of 1423 set in 2021, also under the current and worst hitting coach in franchise history, Andy Haines
Not improving on this offensive stat and in fact becoming worse should be considered a major failure and cost Haines his job
But knowing Cherington, he’ll probably sign Haines to an extension
YourDreamGM
I project they will get there
TheMan 3
well, the Pirates management has done it again.
Needing just 4 more plate appearances to reach a bonus of $250,000 IKF is not in the starting lineup for today’s game
YourDreamGM
Pirates management has done it again. You mean being smart and saving $? You said his defense and hitting hasn’t been good so he doesn’t deserve that bonus!
Good luck guys with getting these better free agents you are asking for. Seriously would sign with Pittsburgh? They better be paying me more $. Not just a little bit more but more more. Lots of losing, playing in a stadium with no fans, receiving bottom of the barrel coaching, a clueless manager bouncing me all around the lineup. Best case scenario is they trade me at the deadline. I hate to have to move my family in the middle of the season but it’s the only chance I have of getting my bonus.
User 537097019
I’m always amazed by Shelton. Someone said it a few articles back. He has the uncanny ability to just forget about a guy who’s hot with the bat or shows some real ability at a position for a few games to then put him on the bench
I’m sure that had he been here during the Bonds era, he’d have had half the homers, DH’d some, played some first and been given days off at a time
TheMan 3
Shelton did that all season, giving hot players the day off due to his “ schedule”
I vividly recall Cutch going through a hot streak, then because Shelton’s schedule of giving players an off day, when Cutch played again, he went into a slump
Shelton’s belief that players require a day off and actually has a schedule for each, breaks up the continuity, almost as much as the 150 different lineups he wrote during the course of the season
I don’t remember Leyland, Murtaugh or Virdon having different lineups for practically every game and more sessions than not, they were successful managers
TheMan 3
it’s not the point about his lack of offense but thanks for putting words in my mouth
YourDreamGM
You just told me yesterday or day before his average was 25 points lower or something. I didn’t put words in your mouth. I haven’t watched a game or looked at IKF stats in over a month. I heard it direct from you. Straight out of the horses as…. I mean mouth.
TheMan 3
the point isn’t about his crappy offense it’s yet another black eye on a franchise already struggling to defend releasing Rowdy before his bonus could kick in
YourDreamGM
I got your point just wasn’t worried about his bonus. If you do it with 1 guy no reason to stop
YourDreamGM
IKF agrees. ‘I didn’t deserve it’: Pirates infielder Isiah Kiner-Falefa passes on chance for performance bonus.
I love Cheringtons response. “Just another example of how happy we are to have IKF on our team.”
I love this organization.
TheMan 3
I saw that excerpt in the article, but that’s not what the headline reads or what sports media cares about
User 537097019
You know, the Cardinals have made it known Goldschmidt is done in St Louis. His numbers were down this year and he won’t get the bucks other FA’s like Walker and Alonso will get
And he’d be welcomed addition here at 1st for a couple years.
TheMan 3
do we really want an over the hill first baseman next year? His power numbers have dropped significantly, didn’t drive in his normal number of runs and his strikeouts have increased
Just what this team needs, someone who strikes out a ton
User 537097019
Yeah, I know that. And the chances of getting him even at a reduced price tag is almost nil. But instead of a Tellez? Sure. Why not?
If you haven’t read Gene Collier’s column in today’s PG, well, he’s another columnist who sees it accurately:
post-gazette.com/sports/gene-collier/2024/09/29/pi…
YourDreamGM
Only his standard stats are down. Advanced data not so much. He could be unlucky again like this year but odds our he will be better next year if he doesn’t decline too much physically. Could get a player option though which would rule him out as a Pirate unless Nutting starts making poor decisions.
TheMan 3
I don’t subscribe to the Post Gazette so I can’t read it
User 537097019
I don’t either, TheMan3. Their ownership and editorial department made it impossible for me. But you can still access their articles. I think you get three free ones a day, or just clear out your browser and cookies
YourDreamGM
Don’t need to subscribe. Click on article and turn your internet off. Article will load but the subscription pop up or whatever won’t.
TheMan 3
Triolo has made franchise history by being strikeout victim number 1500 for the season
YourDreamGM
Who was 1424?
TheMan 3
good question, Dream, but in what has become typical fashion for Cruz, he struck out swinging to end it 2024 season for the 181st time
I could accept that amount if he was a power hitter but that many is inexcusable for someone who isn’t
Skeptical
Now, we wait in anticipation of the headlines “Pirates and Shelton Part Ways” and “Pirates Begin Search for New Hitting Coach”..
Have a nice off season and hopefully we see those headlines soon. Until spring training, more time to head to the forest.
User 537097019
I’m no fan of Shelton. He has allowed players to conduct themselves as prima donnas and has failed to enhance fundamentals and knowledge of the game
But if it’s just him and his staff—and the GM and his player development staff stay, replete with a miserly owner who refuses to spend—how much does it matter? 5-7 more wins?
YourDreamGM
Those would be awful headlines as they would mean Cherington is back.
Cherington attached himself to Shelton. If they don’t fire Cherington then might as well bring Cherington back.
TheMan 3
how long before there’s an article about the firing of Shelton and his staff now that the season is yet another historical failure?
YourDreamGM
Cherington expects him to be back. Doesn’t matter anyways. Manager is the least of their problems. Cherington needs fired.
YourDreamGM
Ken Rosenthal says Shelton won’t be fired unless Nutting changes his mind. That’s good news to me. If Cherington isn’t fired might as well keep Shelton. Hopefully get another high draft pick. Maybe eventually Nutting will get a new gm.
TheMan 3
it’s always about next year or a high draft pick, it’s never about finding internal ways to improve the team and come next year at this same time, the headlines will repeat themselves
If Travis Williams and Nutting can’t see what the forest from the trees, the perpetual darkness will continue to hover over PNC Park and another laughable baseball season will come and go
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results
User 537097019
But you need a genius GM who can make moves under financial restraints. Sure, he can refine player personnel staff but you’ve said it yourself, good coaches and development guys aren’t cheap and don’t grow on trees
A new owner, as Mackey suggests, is the only way out of the wilderness, and that’s not going to happen
TheMan 3
You’re right, good coaches and player development staff doesn’t come cheap but other small market teams seem to afford them
Cleveland, Tampa and Minnesota are examples
TheMan 3
under the tutelage of hitting coach, Andy Haines this team finished
last in the league in doubles
last in hits
3rd to last in runs scored
2nd most in strikeouts
2nd to last in batting average
While no one in management deserves to come back next year, Cherington, if he’s staying, should fire Haines for his inability to improve offense over his tenure here
It would also show to the fans that he is serious about making the team competitive next season