Pirates manager Derek Shelton announced to reporters today that shortstop Oneil Cruz will be moved to center field. As to whether this is a permanent move or just an experiment, Shelton said “I think right now, we’re looking at him as a center fielder” per Noah Hiles of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on X. Isiah Kiner-Falefa will be the club’s primary shortstop for the rest of the year, per Hiles on X.
Cruz, now 25, has long been an exciting player due to his obvious natural abilities. His Statcast page features plenty of red, as he frequently features as one of the best players in the league in terms of things like exit velocity, sprint speed and arm strength.
However, there have always been questions about concerning elements in his game. One of those is his that his tremendous ability to crush the baseball also comes with huge amounts of strikeouts. And the other big question has been about whether his height would prevent him from sticking at shortstop. Cruz is listed at 6’7″ and there’s never really been a player of that size at that position for an extended period of time. The Bucs have given it a try but the results haven’t been amazing. Cruz has over 1700 major league innings at shortstop now but with -8 Defensive Runs Saved and -13 Outs Above Average.
It seems the club has decided now is time to try a change. The Bucs hovered around contention for much of the summer but they have fallen back lately. As of right now, they are eight games back of a playoff spot in the National League and would need to pass six other clubs in order to get in. The Playoff Odds at FanGraphs give them just a 0.4% chance of pulling it off while the PECOTA Standings at Baseball Prospectus are even less optimistic at 0.1%.
With the season more or less on life support, the club is clearly turning its attention to the future. Center fielder Michael A. Taylor has reportedly been placed on waivers as the club hopes for someone to take on what’s left of his $4MM salary. If he is claimed, it would save the club some money and open up the position for Cruz. If Taylor isn’t claimed, the club will presumably either move him to a bench role or cut him from the roster regardless.
The remaining five weeks of the schedule will give Cruz a chance to get familiar with the position, which he has never played. He has 80 minor league innings in left field and one major league inning in that corner as well, but that’s the sum of his outfield experience. Perhaps the natural athletic abilities of Cruz, particularly his speed, can be better deployed in center field.
If he seems passable out there in center, it will naturally impact the club’s future, this offseason and beyond. He can still be retained for four seasons beyond this one, so he could give the club an anchor in center if he takes to it. Bryan Reynolds was once the club’s center fielder but he has mostly been in the corners for the past two years. Jack Suwinski got a shot up the middle after a strong 2023 season but he crashed back to earth this year.
The Bucs acquired Bryan De La Cruz from the Marlins at the deadline to try to solidify right field. He has three seasons of club control beyond this one while Reynolds is under contract through 2030 with a club option for 2031. The club also has guys like Billy McKinney, Connor Joe, Ji Hwan Bae, Joshua Palacios and Suwinski on the roster to potentially help out in the future as well.
Kiner-Falefa is a competent defender at multiple positions, including shortstop, and is under contract for another season beyond this one. The club will need a long-term solution there but he can cover the spot in the short term. Termarr Johnson, one of the club’s best prospects, is a middle infielder but hasn’t yet reached Double-A and will need some more time to climb the ladder.
If the club feels good about Kiner-Falefa at shortstop and Cruz in center, then their offseason can be spent focusing on other aspects of the roster, such as second base, first base or the bullpen. For Cruz personally, he has been a strong offensive performer despite his strikeouts. He has hit .252/.314/.459 so far in his career for a wRC+ of 111 while also stealing 30 bases. That has come with subpar shortstop defense but he could perhaps increase his future earning power if he can become a solid defensive center fielder instead.
Smart move. Dude’s gonna be huge and was/is a terrible infielder. Frees him up to focus on hitting.
Smart move, yes…. no way it came from Shelton
This sort of feels like a despration move from Shelton. Maybe his job is more in jeporady than they’re letting on.
Desperation? Where else can he go to take advantage of his arm and speed. Bold prediction….he’ll be better there than SS.
He got an extension he isn’t going anywhere
Definitely my first thought. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I hope you are correct.
1225 what could this possibly do to save Sheldon’s job if it’s even in jeapordy? The pirates are virtually certain to miss the play offs regardless. If anything being in that position may have motivated pirates management to take action on growing concerns about cruz’s ability to stick at short. The situation being what it is, its a time when they can try stuff like this out without any significant immediate detriment. Might as well utilize the opportunities for future development down the stretch at this point.
He can’t be any worse than.
Or can he ?
if Cruz could cut down on his strikeouts he could be driving force for this team
He has 152 of them, just now while looking
He’s currently on pace for 189 for the season
Cruz, for his second consecutive plate appearance, caught looking on strike three, but according to MLB1225, Cruz would be the best hitting center fielder
What a crock of s*+t
Dude’s got a name
We shouldn’t expect Travis to know anything, TheMan! History repeats itself lol
Shelton’s and Haines’ jobs should have been on the line after the 10 game losing streak
Why those happen over a 162 season
Like, literally? OMG!
Travis-On what article did you say he was going to
CF dude?
Certainly dude.
What article was that?
How do you know he will accept this move?
Why wouldn’t the Pirates put him at DH if he cannot play the field?
CF or RF is the outfield and,no,I am not pedantic.
He is no guarantee in the outfield,it is much different than SS.He is especially not a guarantee without proper training.That is not fair to him and is setting him up for failure.
The “casual” Pirate fans that you continually refer know a lot more about specifics with Cruz than you will ever know dude.
When he probably fails in CF,possibly through no fault of his own,the next stop is first base.
Lol wanna keep going?
because this is year number 4 and they were supposed to be competitive this season and ultimately failed
Paul- Year #5 “dude”!
Lol
I stand corrected, Mendoza
thanks dude
Dude you are insufferable travis. You really think you are some sort of guru of baseball. You get on a site where people speculate over baseball news and do nothing but insult them, its pathetic and people like you ruin these sites for others. Secondly anyone eho has watched pirates baseball casually or not could see cruz was not a SS just look at his errors. Its not a hot take that he was moving to the outfield people have been saying it for months
Lol @ Matthews@gmail.com He told me yesterday using a middle reliever in a high leverage situation is “unfair” to the reliever… Lol, “fair” hasn’t been relevant since maybe 2nd grade…
I think he’s a kid or 4ft with Napoleon complex.
Moving him to DH for the rest of the season isnt a dumb move. Switching positions at the end of the season cout be bad. If he had the offseason to work on it he could be eased into it you dunce. Try to use logic
Travis – was going to comment yesterday, but today is even better. Check off the SS box, get ready to check the CF box, then the corner OF boxes as failures. Cruz will end up at DH….it’s the correct place for your “elite athlete”.
Yea id say so if he actually understtod how bullpens worked he wouldnt make an asinine comment like that
That means so much coming from a knucklehead like you,Travis! Thanks amigo 🙂
Lol Travis’ Wood, “You think it’s a flex to be stupid?”
You tell me, you’re the one writing that book.
Dang this thread is getting heated! It may prove to be the case that cruz doesn’t take well to center but I can appreciate the bucs’ reasoning for wanting to try. He has tools that can play up at the position if he is able to get a handle on the core elements of outfielding. With his speed his size can potentially be advantageous out there, speed plus a long stride offers some physical potential to cover a lot of ground on the grass and he certainly has the arm for it.
In general teams aren’t gonna want to skip too many steps in the defensive spectrum when they move a guy off short. They have Hayes and his elite glove at 3rd so that’s not an immediate option and second doesn’t make sense for cruz’s arm tool and his challenges with shortstop. If they find that it’s not working well enough for him in center, maybe they try right.
Ultimately there’s only upside and little immediate downside to them giving him a whirl in center. They can pull the plug and stick him at dh, etc whenever they feel they need to, possibly with an eye for working on outfield defense with him over the offseason and in spring instead of against live mlb competition.
Yes! and his name is Jim Croce! man3!
@seamaholic
He won’t be free from thinking about defense. This is an entirely new position for him, and while it isn’t as involved as SS, CF is the take charge position. Getting proper jumps, hitting the cut offs, throwing to the right bases, and backing up his fellow OFs will require repetition to learn.
it’s not as if his learning would have any effect on their playoff chances
Sty-Correct.This is potentially a good change as BC I think senses that neither Bae nor Suwinski are the answer there.
But this could also be a setup for failure like he did with Davis last year.
Travis couldn’t spell CAT if you spotted him the C and the A.
if it was the word “ dude “ he probably has it on speed dial
seamaholic 2;
Yeah.
Now he doesn’t have to field.
The only thing “huge” about him is his size. One of the worst players I’ve ever seen try to play major league baseball. No feel for the game at all.
He’s what’s known as a loser. As are the 11 people that upvoted your post thinking he can help a team by standing in CF which: “Frees him up to focus on hitting”.
You know, CF is sort of an important position. Playing it well or poorly helps or hurts a team that’s trying to win games. Some fans want their team to win games. Apparently you and others could care less. It’s all about entertainment.
The guys a selfish DH, and not a particularly good one. An insult to the game. The preverbal: ‘Legend In His Own Mind’.
Too many people have believed that athleticism alone can make the difference where Cruz is concerned, fans and apparently baseball people alike
You love to hear stories like that of Nick Gonzales, who floundered in his call ups last year but worked on his own and on the farm to refine his play
You root for kids like that. They’ve put the work in
I like the idea of Cruz moving to CF but I have the idea of Tatis making a similar move and putting the work in. Cruz is not Tatis.
And he’s not Gregory Polanco, who by all accounts worked his tail off in trying to become a better outfielder and hitter, but never could find it. Easy guy—a good guy—to root for
Cruz reminds me of Polanco in that regard. Gifted athlete. But whether or not he’s willing to work at it is anyone’s guess. And will management finally hold his feet to the fire?
When the player (Cruz) is pampered by management, it’s difficult to see him doing the necessary work to become a better player
I agree that he’s a stark reminder of Polanco’s potential that never came to fruition as an all around player
Wait, how does switching him to a very difficult position he’s never played in professional baseball free him up to focus on hitting? Switching him to DH would free him up to focus on hitting, not CF.
he’s not exactly lighting up the scoreboard playing at SS. Yes his exit velocity is one of the best in baseball but that’s when he’s not striking out 152 times
You won’t score runs if you don’t put the ball in play and this team is near the bottom in the league in runs scored
Wow
Worked for Merrill. Just saying. Short stops translate. Pulling for the guy!
Also worked for tatis and profar shortstops are built different
“Are built different”…Shortstops are almost always very good athletes. Athleticism translates. That’s why I don’t understand drafting one-trick, 1b/DH types like Torkelson, Vaughn or even Pittsburgh’s Davis in the top 15 of recent drafts.
Nearly every non-pitcher/catcher can say they probably played shortstop at one point, whether that be in as an international amature, high school, college, or early in their pro career.
Teams have to draft from the lot that is available that year. All star SS may not be one of the offerings.
Yeah cuz most mlb players were probably far and away the best player/athlete on their team if you go back far enough. And a lot of pitchers would have played the field in little league etc too growing up on days they weren’t pitching
That Merrill looks pretty good towin. I think Cruz is just a K machine with elite power + a cannon but I wish the Bucs had Merrill in center
Don’t sleep on Cruz! Cannon for an arm and range. I think he’s going to like CF. Merrill has been fun to watch. Thought he’d be good but wow!
and I wish they had anyone else than Shelton as manager and Haines as hitting coach
Life is unfair
Works for the Padres so worth a shot.
What a move
Wow, I didn’t expect them to do it mid season. Idk how I feel about that. They tried him in the outfield a few years ago and he looked bad. Guess we’ll see how he does now.
Well, at the very least, he will immediatley become one of the best hitting center fielders in the game.
yeah, him and his 152 strikeouts
They didn’t try him in the outfield very long. He said he didn’t like it and that was the end of it. 10 games there with a bad attitude you have no idea if he was good or bad. If he fully embraces the position change he should at the very least be a passable corner outfielder.
O Cruz has speed and a canon for an arm. Center field is probably the better position rather than corner OF, as the “Launch Angle” to CF should be an easier 1 to learn for O Cruz.
I’m just hoping that O Cruz embraces the NEW Position and excels at it
About time ..but why not call up peguero to play short?
Maybe waiting till rosters expand
Rosters only increase by 2 players and Peguero isn’t special. Probably be pen guys.
He can’t hit yet.
A Six Foot Seven Center Fielder
Well that is very stylish
thats a hell of a price to pay for being “stylish”!
Hahahah yes…yes it is
Any idea where that quote came from Lefty?
The Enforcer…Dirty Harry
you are good, sir!! I wish you guys had kept norby…
Aaron Judge also approves!
He does…but he never played Shortstop…as far as I know
Like Judge?
Worked for both tatis and Merrill. Tatis could have just as easily played center.
Think the reds Cruz will be doing the same at some point.
i think so as well…….india is signed for next year….McLain will be 100%
Elly could play anywhere with his speed and arm I wouldn’t even rule out catcher
Ella would probably catch 10% of base stealers by outrunning them to 2B…
*Elly…
@sad
could be worse there Mariner’s fan. The M’s could migrate to Salt Lake City UT
That would bring in the fans.
Ella Fitzgerald would lullaby them to sleep and tag them out.
There’s a greater chance of us moving somewhere else before we win a pennant
Unless elon musk comes along…
I don’t think Elly moving for a few years at soonest. McLain’s injury history suggests he’s not going to top 125-130 games a year. I think he will stay, for the most part, at 2B. India will be traded or fill the utility role they intended him to fill this year before McLain was hurt. Arroyo could move Elly off SS but he, like McLain, missed this whole season and he needs some time at AAA still. Elly has made too many errors this season but he’s 22 and still is 10 OAA this year.
Smart move
Worked for Robin Yount
injury induced…but yes it did.
Robin Yount won a gold glove at short. Not quite the same
Wondering how he feels about it!? He had said before he was SS. Hope he doesn’t turn into cry baby.
All these dudes think they’re shortstops and half of them think they can pitch, too.
If he can hit, he’ll make the adjustment and forget about short, eventually, like so many before him. Just a guess.
another “ dude “
He’s already a cry baby, that’s why they pamper him
Whining about Cruz!
have you ever watched Cruz’ attitude before?
He’s a silent whiner who is pampered by management for bad base running decisions, admiring hits before even thinking about running out of the batters box and making double clutching balls for no reason then falling to throw out runners going to first base
No to dh! He is very good athlete!
Bro if he was a DH then that would be a waste of a 100 mph POSITION PLAYER arm
Have you ever commented without using the word casual?
JM-Travis is a legend in his own mind.
Travis-I said that the Pirates need hitting regarding Taylor.
They put him on waivers to try to get someone to pay him for the rest of the year.
I also said that Taylor got his WAR from his fielding and not his hitting.
The hitting coach is bad but that has nothing to do with Taylor as he has proved as a veteran that he cannot hit.
Are you mixing me up with someone else?
Travis,you may be a decent guy,but quite frankly you are here for entertainment purposes only
Mendoza. Travis is a malignant tumor in his own mind…DUD
Old saying ” knock on wood”.. .I think the dud got knocked in the head too much
What a dud troll
Travis’ Wood;
So how many weeks have you been following MLB?
Travis Wood is the ONeil Cruz of trolls.
That’s giving him too much credit! Trav is like the Little Leaguer that barely sees the field for 1 inning because everybodys gotta play of trolls!
New-I think that he is a decent kid who is hooked on statistics and does not know baseball long enough and well enough to know that the important things are that people run and play the game and not how hard a player can throw and hit a baseball.
Maybe I’ll take back that statement as you really do not seem to be the brightest bulb in the pack.
You are clearly enamored with Cruz and his statistics and do not understand his numerous weaknesses.
You are very casual in coming to a new team site and thinking that you know it all.
You don’t.
In fact you know very little.
Take this retort as a response to your last post from above.
His weaknesses along with mishandling could very well doom him to failure in CF.
Then what do the Pirates do with him?
1st base,where he could make a fine first baseman?
Your response- LOL!
DH- Your response- The casuals are at it again and what a terrible take!
Your demeaning attitude is not actually troll like.
It is just plain stupid.And worse,boring.
And you may have said that he should be moved to the outfield if he did not make it at SS.
But you did not predict it.
Enough for me.I hate being bored.Your entertainment value has hit rock bottom.
Not sure what that is supposed to mean
SlapHittingBeta is a new troll account, probably the same dude
Kash-Thanks for your response below.
If it is him he has more problems than I thought.
Slapstick-Nice to see that you are a pseudo psychiatrist friend for your friend Travis.
Travis may not need the meds either.
But you certainly do.
Slapstick-Actually,you are nothing but a low life troll who knows nothing about baseball.
Crawl up from your mother’s basement and smell the fresh air for once.
You are even at a much lower level than the dude named Travis who at least thinks that he knows what he is talking about.
Hasta la vista slapstick.Give us another dumb email so that we can have the last laugh.
In response to your last email to me,I will make it short(yea),and make it my last( yea yea)
I have been here eight years and we used to have downvotes and it is a good thing that they have discontinued them.
Yours would have crashed the site.
You have little slapstick following you around but I have never seen so many negative responses to a poster ever on this site.Not even close.
I give you credit for your energy and persistence.
But hasta la vista Travis.
I would wait til the off-season and then let him play CF in winter ball and spring training rather than do it during the season
Why? Playoffs aren’t realistic. Get a start now, rest during the off season and if it looked doable, stick with it in spring training.
Why not start that training early…it is not like these games count for the Pirates.
management knows their season is over now, with no chance of making the playoffs, so why not experiment Cruz playing center field
Year 5 of the Cherington regime and they still haven’t finished at .500
Rsox- But that is Ben Cherington’s way.
He has done it with several marginal ML young players and last year did it with Henry Davis when he threw him a glove and told him to play RF.
Cruz has never been a SS,but has very fine raw talent.The question was always whether he could improve on it.
This is actually unfair to him but at least it will shake him out of his SS trance.
He possibly could become a good CF but this change is poopooed by some who do not know any better but outfield play is quite a bit different than infield play.
I do give Cherington credit for making a significant change like this as it takes guts.This was purely his call although Shelton May have been smart enough to plant something in his ear.
I had said first that they should move him to RF but I honestly believe that Davis can play there.
I thought that Bae would be a good CF but I am not confident that he can ever hit ML pitching decently.
If this does not work out Cruz can move to first base next year where that stretch would be awesome.
He,like the boll weevil in the 1960’s song,just has to find a home.
Nick Gonzales will come back up and play 2nd.
I like Gonzales, but I also want to see Yorke at 2b. Also, not sure what they plan for Billy Cook, who seems a natural CF and is ready for his promotion to MLB.
I like Gonzalez too.I also like IKF.Not sure about Turmarr.
I wonder if Gonzalez could become the permanent shortstop and IKF their utilityman along with Triolo.Let’s see if Yorke can work out at second but I would not want to jeopardize Gonzalez if he cannot move to shortstop.
Billy Cook could be the backup outfielder if Cruz works out in center.
Bae and Alika each need to put 15-20 pounds of muscle on or they will have short ML careers.
Gonzalez is not a SS.
I think he fits better at right field or 3rd base but he does have enough speed to play center
This era of oversized center fielders is fun we have Cruz and judge and j-rod as giants that can jump over the wall
If the Hayes contract wasn’t such an albatross I’d bet the Bucs would have considered moving him to third.
yeah as if his throws from 3rd base wouldn’t have been as erratic as from shortstop
Monkey- We do not know how much losing Joe Nunnaly meant to Hayes and how bad his back really is.We should know better next ST.
Don’t quite agree with this move. Let him play 1st
Why not? He will be better at short than center. If he was a centerfielder then he should have been played there in the minors.
Would you put a pitcher in who threw 100 if he couldn’t throw strikes. He has already given half hearted attempts in the outfield. Believe there is still a chance to improve at short. Think they are giving up to soon . He just needs to mature
Steve- He is a terrible SS who takes it far too casually.
The key is whether he buys into this change.He will have to do so or he will be a failure there too.
His lack of concentration hurts a lot at SS but could be game fatal in CF.
He has the natural ability to play there but this is not an easy segue.
Yes ML shortstops are natural athletes but the change should be made gradually.
However,other posters are right in that the Pirates have little to lose except Cruz’ confidence,
I hope that he does not become another Jack Suwinski in that regard.
I don’t think he is a great defensive short stop but center field is an art all to its self. Basically gong to be just a different type of blunders. I think he should have been benched several times for his Brain lapses this year. Hopefully it works out.
I agree about the benching for a game but they have coddled him for years.
He really should have been continually benched when he does not run getting out of the box.
Bob Walk alluded to that a couple of games ago when he specifically mentioned IKF and Reynolds hustling out of the batter’s box to get the extra base.
I think that the only good thing to come out of this will be in telling Cruz that he is no longer a shortstop.CF is also a very important fielding position and hopefully he will buy into making a change.
I have preached no accountability for certain players for years and Cruz was one of them. I just don’t see him as a centerfielder but in all fairness they don’t have one in ready in the minors and I don’t see a free agent that would be a difference maker
Travis’ Wood;
Here’s a casual question:
Does having “one of the best arms” include throwing the ball accurately?
Have you ever watched any MLB games? Ever played baseball…….on a field?
lol
Stand by for 3 base errors.
So one more base than the current standard? ♂️
Well played sir! LOL
Need more guys playing multiple positions. They’re supposed to be athletes. Too bad MLB got rid of the pitcher hitting.
Stupid take
He has had some injury issues before this move. I would put him at a corner not center. Guys who move to center later in their career have a tendency to get hurt.
“Later in their career” lol dudes 25 I think he’ll be ok
His minor league career began in 2016. He’s never played 1 single inning in center his entire career. Not 1.
Well, just look at what Triolo did in his one professional appearance in RF!!
Buc-That was one sweet catch.
Does not surprise me because Triolo in his defense is the best overall fielder on the Pirates.
dude has a name
this isn’t his latter years and from what I read elsewhere, this is an experiment not a permanent change
People criticizing this move should think about who the Bucs have been trotting out to CF lately. It’s Taylor, who can’t hit, and otherwise a bunch of other guys who aren’t natural center fielders.
They’re not going anywhere this year, so why not try it out starting now?
Because Cruz could hurt himself. That’s why.
cruz could hurt himself sliding. Oh that’s right, he already did that last year which sidelined him for the entire season
This move brought to you by Ex-Lax, the official “mover” of the Pirates FO.
And definitely the official after-game choice of Pirates fans for many decades.
Oh boy. I can’t wait to see the Disney movie based on this called “Errors in the Outfield.”
While I think he’s one of those guys who can do just about anything he wants out there, I’m hoping the growing pains are met with patience.
Give him some time to adjust and I think it works out great.
I suppose better CF than either corner since Cruz would likely kill the CF in either case. This way, everyone assumes ball is his and stays out of the way. I also think this is a test for Shelton to sell this and ensure Cruz buys in. Now if they could only get Hayes to hit, they’d have promise for ’25.
fwiw, Elly has more errors, a -6 DRS to Oneil’s -8, and a .950 fpct to Oneil’s .947. Seems quite similar, although for reasons beyond my understanding, Elly also sports an FRV of 8 to Oneil’s -2 and an OAA of 11 to Oneil’s -3. I only see Elly when the Reds play the Bucs, so I don’t know what it is he’s doing that’s significantly better than Oneil.
Cruz also makes mental errors that do not show up in the box score.
I love it when he double clutches before throwing to first and still doesn’t get the runner out
B I N G O !
He leads MLB in that.
No feel for the game at all. Spoiled because his father was a major leaguer and with his talent [sic] he wouldn’t listen to anyone.
Friedman traded him at the deadline for a Pirates relief pitcher playing out his option.
Termarr has yet to reach AA? Jeez
Termarr was promoted to AA Altoona yesterday
Yeah, just promoted yesterday.
I think that they just sent him there.
He just turned 20 this summer.
Hopefully this time next year he is being promoted to AAA.
Pleasantly surprised that Cherington and Shelton have decided to go this route. Hope the kid embraces the change and at the same time, adjusts the diva mentality he sometimes displays
The timing is right for this move, but also right to get a couple kids who are doing well in the minors up here to get some time along with just recalled Davis. Why continue with Tellez or Grandal at this point?
And maybe they’ll finally look to start one of the kids instead of Woodford
according Cherington, Cruz welcomed this decision
Paul-Do we believe everything that BC says?
We will find out soon enough if he has bought into it.
It is such a quick change though that everyone will have to give Cruz the benefit of the doubt.
If they do what I want and move Davis to RF and both work out there will be no one taking any extra bases on the Pirates for years to come.
again, I stand corrected, Mendoza, Cherington lies like we breathe
I also think that it may have had something to do with the ultimate threat- money.
He makes the switch and tries hard to do well and,if he does,he gets a contract like Hayes,Keller,and Reynolds got.
Is De la Cruz just a rental? If so, I guess your idea has some merit. Otherwise, what is the thinking?
Endy comes back. Bart has earned time. And Davis. Cutch wants to return
Have we heard of any plan to give some of these guys some work at 1st?
Have to hope that Cruz gets a lot of coaching where CF is concerned. Yeah, he balked at going to right but is amenable to center as it’s more of a glamor/focus spot. Fine. But it can’t be like Davis’s time in RF, where they just tell him to get his glove and get out there
I think that the most important thing by far is that they realize that he isn’t a shortstop before next year and have moved on from that.
At least I hope so.
Not ever sure that Cherington has a viable plan about most things.
If Davis does reasonably well at catcher maybe they move Bart to first base.If Davis hits he can share DH duties.
I know McCutcheon has been a feel good story and one of the best hitters on a bad hitting team but I do not see him as viable DH on a good team going forward,
This tough decision gives me hope that they can make that one.I do not think that they are obligated since the newness has worn off and remember that he did not tell them that he was interested in returning until well after the market had dried up on him.
DeLa Cruz was not a rental and was an honest effort to get better at the trade deadline but while IKF is a good player DLC is just a continuation of the mediocrity that they have had in RF.
I hope that for Cruz and the Pirates sake that he works hard with the right attitude and works out in CF and is given a reasonable chance to do so.
they haven’t had a good hitting team since the early 90’s when Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke and Jay Bell were on the team
Every player that you mentioned are still unproven talent except for Bart and Cutch
But, having talent is one thing, having the best coaching staff to get the best out of the talent could become a repeat of the past 5 years if Haines is retained for next year
@Senor So I just watched one of Rogers video’s. Curiosity got me. Only planned to watch one. Then it turned to another. And another and wow. I knew he was crazy but he keeps giving all these examples so maybe I am wrong? And I was wrong. He is bat it crazy. Him in the bullpen discussing the slider is him in the stands shouting down at the pitchers you gotta use the football grip! Stiff wrist! He got a video telling a security guard he just wants to ask the players if they are using his football slider. Guard is like your not allowed to talk to them or something and in his mind they are using it and don’t want the secret to get out. His conversation with the manager is the manager signing baseballs to fans behind a fence and Roger yelling something about the football slider. Managers reaction explains why Roger doesn’t have video of him in the clubhouse.
After he hit you with something like 10 replies to your last explanation, that was enough for him. It was like some computer generated bot spewing the same thing over and over
Cruz’s problems in the infield have nothing to do with his height. He fields the ball just fine, he just makes way too many throwing errors to play at shortstop.
He makes a lot of dumb plays period.Some show up as errors.
His arm is so strong that it compensates for some of his other inadequacies.
Many of his throws to first base bounce before reaching Rowdy’s glove and luckily, he pulls them up from the dirt
Paul- I have to give credit where it is due.I checked about a month ago and Rowdy had had only one error all year to that point.
He does have a good scoop,which is important to have.
I would be physically afraid with Cruz winding up and throwing to me.And my mitt hand would be too.
His footwork has always been a problem as well as his reads of ground balls. It goes beyond a height issue. I don’t know that he ever absorbed instruction to play short and relied on athletic ability.
Add to this general field awareness that’s lacking and almost a lack of understanding about game situations and strategies opponents may use. Great athlete, but it hasn’t translated
Imagine if Adames was the kinda signing pittsburgh would make keeping IKF as super util. Replace Rowdy and Michael Taylor with Alonso and Adames and this team would look very competitive.
that’s a dream that could never happen because those players would cost more than the owner is willing to pay
Time to see a record number of cutoff men being overthrown!
Brownie will say good thing that netting is there. Statcast has that throw as a 103 mph Cruz missile!
440- If he does become really good he may make cutoff men a thing of the past.
Bido is in Oakland with a 3.24 era
#ScoutingSucks
Your boy Andujar ops is under 700 now so no need to lose sleep on him.
Williams 2.22
Perez 2.70
Holmes 2.72
Soriano 3.42
Contreras 3.99
it’s true about players who leave this franchise end up excelling with teams that they are traded to and the list is longer than what Dream provided and in years past as well
Who would have expected Jay Bell, the shortstop during the early Leyland years to hit 38 homers playing for Arizona?
Dream-Do you really think that Bido was a bona fide prospect or are you just cherry picking again?
And Andujar would at least have been improvement over the non entities trotted out to RF this year.
And,no,I do not lose sleep over any of this stuff.
Dream-This is Williams’ second good year ever.
Perez was ready to be waived as you said several times.
Do not know Soriano.
Holmes was unfixable by Pirates coaches as you have said and had been given numerous chances over the years.
Contreras was odd man out,and see Holmes above.
The Pirates cannot carry 60 players on their 40 man roster.
That’s the problem. “unfixable by Pirates coaches” Other teams fix former Pirates all the time. And it usually doesn’t take years. Usually weeks, heck sometimes days or even hours.
161 posts alone on this pirates post and going strong and sitting here watching this crap is so stressful. German? Why take a chance on him? 11 to 2. Most stolen bases in a game for cubs in 100 years. Total S you know what show. Cruz making an error is the least of this franchises problems
Shelton wasn’t about to bring in another pitcher other than German to pitch in long relief especially considering Keller had problems getting Cub batters out through his 4 innings of work
They were hitting everything no matter where the ball was thrown.
And it’s Keller’s approach to the plate is why they stole so many bases though Grandal’s weak arm certainly didn’t help
Why was Friegel or how ever you spell his name brought up? Cameron and Holderman are both in Indy? Why? The game was over when Keller couldn’t get through 4 innings but they don’t even field their best team they can
Hey German enjoy an ice cold iron city with Shelton after the game.
Bring up the youngsters.
Send German back to Germany.
Where are the reliever starters like Jackson and Bido when you need them?!
Kinda hard to stay down on the ball at 6’7. You don’t see Aaron Judge in the middle infield do ya? At 6’7 he could play a good 1B but that doesn’t utilize his speed. I think as long as he can pick up the ball well this is a great move.
I have to apologize to Dream.
Grandpa has been hitting well and working with the pitchers and walking off.
Rowdy has become the second best relief pitcher on the Pirates.
And pitchers should not have to run to first.
Feel free to read my July 4th post. Impressive work. Not Rowdy or Hill impressive but not bad.
New hashtag inspired by your comment Mendoza.
Rowdy Tellez #NuttingOhtani
Dream-All your work is impressive.
Do you really think that Hill is a viable pitcher anymore?
Had a 2.35 or something era last I checked.
That is what happens when you can’t make the everyday plays at SS. Like Tatis Cruz makes some highlight reel plays at SS, but just boots or throws away too many simple plays.
Hopefully he can make the same kind of transition to OF that Tatis did, because I think he can be a great player.
First thing I thought of was Tatis.
Cruz would benefit by someone working on his head, too, from knowledge of the game to how to play with fire instead of often being a prima donna
Maybe they are doing this now to have Cutch help him out for the rest of the year.
Cubs radio announcers said he does not want to move positions. Sounds like the Yankees former 2nd basemen who went to Waashinton and moved to the OF! He became an all-star again. Ended his career with Cubs? Cannot remember his name. Help?
Alfonso Soriano?
Thank You!
Cruz has previously said that if he wasn’t playing SS, he would want to play CF. If he can play a solid CF, then they improve at two positions for 2025. If you are going to build off pitching, you need to put a strong defense behind them (but, still have to hit). Often overlooked because of their hitting problems is the fact that they have one of the worst defenses in MLB. And, it’s not just about errors; it’s also about misplays and makeable plays that aren’t made.
Looking at the FA market, I don’t see any CF players that would help. Improvement has to come from within. I do see a LF option that would help (Reynolds would go to RF), as well as 2 SS’s and 2 2B’s that may be available in the Pirates price range (they would have to extend it). Same at 1B (without having to extend much). Got to be careful to not get too RH hitter heavy.
And, need to bring Chapman back!!!
They’re in a very difficult spot
The rebuild is over but has wobbly foundation pieces. No power hitters or at least run producers coming up from the farm anytime soon
An owner who refuses to spend beyond the bottom tier of free agents
No real trade pieces that are going to bring any of the above
While they do have middle infield depth through the minors, they have a lot of holes to fill at 1st and in the OF
Yeah, they want to build around what looks to be a stud starting pitching staff but as is, they’re going to have to grind out wins thanks to anemic hitting
This will be an important off season for BC if he still has a job.
Nutting is not going to pony up even for one good free agent so Cherington will have to deal from his surplus of young players like De La Cruz,Suwinski,Bae,Peguero,DeLay,Ashcroft,and any of the other young pitchers not named Chandler or Harrington.
If can get a Rooker and a good bullpen pitcher Nutting will pony up for lower level free agents to augment them.
Yes,the payroll will be going up anyway,but they can add up to about $110M without breaking the bank.
Cherington will be on the clock once the season stops.It is make or break time for him.
Some of those names are likely going to be available. Suwinski. Bae. Peguero (which I think is unfortunate) Ashcroft, Delay. Joe
Perhaps even Bednar and Davis
The question is, is there a market for any of them?
No one is giving much of anything for failed players. It will take pitching prospects to get anything significant. They can get bae jack cruz delay for free or peanuts when the Pirates dfa them.
Wouldn’t worry about Rooker. Pirates would be interested but so would other teams. Teams with more aggressive gms, better farm systems, higher payrolls than don’t need prospects as desperately as the Pirates do. Only thing Pirates have going for them is enough starters at mlb that they could trade a few prospects. They could get him but as you seen with free agents and this past trade deadline. So far Cherington just settles for whatever scraps are left. Is he really ready to trade 2 premium pitching prospects? If so pirates can get Rooker. Still will have competition though.
Is he willing to trade two premium pitching prospects?
He has to be if he wants to keep his job.
Ashcraft would be one.He gets hurt too much for me.Keep Bubba and Harrington.Who ever is next up goes too.Maybe they take Oviedo.Maybe they add Suwinski who still has some trade value,and get a good reliever in return.
Cherington has to show that he is serious on taking the next step.
Give him a lot of credit for developing a lot of good young pitchers.
His days of being conservative though need to be over.
And yet, I’m going to predict he does nothing. He’s going to try to plug in the guys we’ve been talking about here but beyond that, well, I’m expecting more Tellez-types if the plugging doesn’t seem to be reaping dividends
Personally, I’d rather they go with what they have in house for a full season than bring in scrap. Rooker? Different story But like Dream states, the Pirates aren’t alone in coveting he and Bleday
He has to be conservative. 100m doesn’t buy anything other than band aids and stop gaps. 20th ranked farm system. Needs every one of his better prospects. Only thing they can trade is pitching. They still need depth but they have enough they can trade 1 or 2 guys and be alright. I’d guess he is willing. And he doesn’t make decisions alone. Not bigger ones.
Don’t give Cherington much credit. Huntington left him a good scouting department. 2025 will be year 6 and you still have Huntington draft picks as top prospects. They extended aka built their team around Huntington guys.
What’s Cheringtons thumb print on this team? He lucked out and for reasons I have no idea why no other team wanted Bart. Clearest I need to get this guy I have seen in years. But good for him for listening to his scouts or seeing it himself. Got lucky and won lottery and drafted Skenes. Jones was 2nd round pick so ok that’s something. He drafted a catcher who couldn’t catch #1 to get Bubba and Bubba was a great pick at time and still looks great. If Bubba doesn’t pan out people will be getting angry when I say what a great pick he was. Guys fail all the time.. doesn’t change the fact he was a great pick. If they don’t teach Connor to hit he was still a great pick. You have to try. Can’t draft nothing but pitchers every year. Hitting development was so bad though that maybe they should have tried that strategy. Year 6 starts in 2 months. The 1 hitter Cherington provided so far is very average and had to build his own facility and teach himself how to hit.
Dream- My point is that he needs to take a chance with a major trade.He has not had to do that in the past with the Marte and Bell salary dumps and the deadline trades.
Huntington left him with an awful scouting department.He has made much better picks and thought outside the box in getting Bubba.
Cherington’s weaknesses are easily understood now by veteran posters and hopefully himself as he is the only one who can change them.
Should and I’d guess will make a major trade. Sounds like he was in on Jazz and Rooker. I think he could have got Rooker if Vegas wanted to trade him. Everyone else valued him as a DH. Cherington would have zero issue with him as a outfielder.
Like I said scouting isn’t and hasn’t been a problem for the last 15 years. Don’t take my word for it just ask the Astros Yankees and Rays. My new favorite line of mine. It’s good right? Casual like you might not like it but I bet my friend Paul does. Just watch the playoffs. You will see NH scouted guys starting games. Closing games. Won’t see any hitting hrs though. Guy had a fetish for light hitting middle infielders. Not a scouting issue.
He also had a fetish for bad first round draft choices in Craig,Tucker,and Newman.Others were mediocrities except the no brainers in Taillon and Cole and maybe Hayes.
If Cherington thinks that Rooker is an outfielder he is gravely mistaken.He makes DeLa Cruz look good.
Only 9 all stars drafted after Tucker. Some as relievers. So all these other teams failed to scout a all star player but you expect Huntington working for the worst cheapest owner in baseball to be able to find one? Well he did. Mitch Keller. Over slot deal. Able to do so by taking Tucker under slot. And apparently other teams scouting thought something of Tucker as his career wasn’t done after Pittsburgh. I didn’t see anything but many other teams did. Cleveland took his brother in the 1st round. Same player. They seem to know what they are doing. I was never a fan of either but for some reason MLB teams are and not just Pittsburgh.
Newman was bad? Don’t tell Samuel. He thought they should have kept him and started over Cruz! 11 all stars taken after him. None by Pittsburgh but they did get Hayes. I bet after his 2020 season you weren’t disliking that pick. Before Haines. Before back. Before wrist. I remember excitement for him. I remember how he was robbed of gold gloves and finally got one.
Pirates failed to draft a all star again in 2016. In fact every single team failed to with their 1st round pick. 8 years and not a single all star.
Tampa Bay on line 1. Please trade us more “mediocrities”
If you like any of my work feel free to post some A+ in the comments. I know some of you aren’t fans but can you honestly say you never learned anything from me? I never made you crack even a lil smile? I think that draft history class alone is worth a A+. I was in highschool and college doing stupid things. I didn’t pay attention to drafts back then. I look at the names drafted and pretty much if they weren’t a all star or I played against them or Cherington dumpster dived for them years later I have no idea who they are. Some or one would have called me a casual back then! Drafting and baseball drafting especially isn’t a sure thing. High failure rate. Today and few weeks ago looking at those kc draft picks I felt like I was in that meeting in major league. I never heard of half these guys! This guy here’s dead! Well cross him off!
I never said that Newman was a bad player.
I liked him.Samuel did not know that they got a good young reliever for him.
But they can get good utilitymen far lower in the draft than the first round.
And anybody with a brain knew that 2019 was an anomaly.
Baz was a bad inclusion in one of the few bad deals that NH made.
He is like Glasgow- constantly hurt.
Would the Pirates have $25M to pay for such a pitcher?
Tucker was a wasted draft choice pure and simple,and he has crashed everywhere he has gone.
They got a lot of hype out of him but nothing else.
They could have made a better choice pure and simple even below slot.
And don’t get me started on Will Craig.
how about Tony Sanchez? Wasn’t he a number one pick in the Huntington era? Or was that under Littlefield
There’s been so many failed draft picks it’s hard to remember who the GM was
DGM will say that he was A+.
2009 under NH.
Mel Mendoza Jr resident draft expert. You need to offer your services to the Pirates or some team. I don’t recall ever seeing you give input on the matter. How about you give us who you would have taken next year. We can all write it down and in 5 years praise you?
Why the continual defense of scouts, Dream? I’ve understand your explanations from the start but they get some heat in all of this, too
I’ve watched the players. I’ve listened to the scouts. I looked at the data. I pay attention to what’s happening in baseball. Cherington drafted the right guys. Especially pitching. His 1st round picks weren’t picks. They were so obvious you had to take them. Luckily a few gms got cute and they fell right in the Pirates lap.
It’s not a defense. It’s what I think. And I think I have a good eye for talent so fell really confident on my statements. I think Cherington needs to go. Player development is awful. The latin America department is awful. I heard they just fired the director. Feel bad for the new person because what a hard job. Haines and Cherington are awful. Even pitching development is just average. The scouting makes it look better than it is! If you haven’t noticed my patience with Cherington has run out. I been destroying the man for awhile now. Would love to say scouting is awful but it wouldn’t be true. It’s by no means impressive but they get the job done. It’s hard to mess up and they don’t.
Ok. Logical summation. Much appreciated. Agree with a great deal of your thinking here
I need to keep in mind that the scouts I knew are long out of the game. Back then, studs were somewhat easy to pick out. Now, players have evolved as we’ve discussed before and in every sport. I’m sure much of the process is a crap shoot in some regards
Speed always plays in the outfield. I believe Cruz will be a more powerful version Jazz Chisholm. Who also converted out to CF with good success.
We will see if they ever move him off DH but he may very like that position based on his recent performance there.
Casual can’t get Cruz and DH off his mind!
God bless him.
Maybe Cruz should be just the DH
In some ways it makes it easier to hit when you do not have to play a premium position or are learning a new one.
Is Travis’ Wood some mutation of the “Muted” guy? It’s like he just he just learned the Word of the Day is “Casual” from Sesame Street.
All the Pirates do is put infielders in the outfield to look ridiculous. But this one could actually work.
The best shortstop in baseball – Carlos Correa is 193cm (6’4″ for those using the obsolete system). Not sure this guy’s height is a factor, but if he is a poor fielder, so be it.
What a clunky read
“His stat cast page features plenty of red” – this is where wrong with baseball.
My only concern with putting Cruz in the outfield, he’s so lanky, he could easily trip over his own feet and get injured
NBA players drop like flies because of this.
Dream- Actually,I have never seen a real fly just drop,so your statement,which you mean as hopefully gentle sarcasm,is actually quite apropos,even though you did not actually mean it that way.
I have seen flies dropped by the Pittsburgh Pirates,however.
I hate flies so I see them drop all the time.
Nice to see the Bucs making some obvious delayed decisions like Cruz to the outfield and releasing Michael A Taylor and Woodford. Too bad the season is over for them, but at least they are making some moves to figure out next year..
Didn’t see this coming, though I figured something would come up with regards to CF, seeing as how the trade and FA market for CFs will be brutal in the offseason. It’s a gamble, because if it doesn’t work out, it could be rather messy for the player and the organization (unless they just decide IKF would play CF, which seems silly, but he gives you that flexibility).
If this pays off, it will be huge for the team as it fills one of the biggest holes in the lineup. It frees them up to pursue a trade for a 1B, some type of platoon partner/utility type for Hayes at 3B., or legitimate OF depth. I don’t see them moving much on FAs, it’s very top-heavy this coming season.
If it doesn’t work, I’m curious as to what the backup plan is. Try to move him to RF? DH? I don’t see either of those as tenable, especially the latter if Cutch is indeed returning. Getting buy-in from Cruz is probably 75% of the equation for success, the other 25% is helping him understand the nuances of the position (routes, when to dive, etc.) which is honestly where I think most of the issues are going to be, since Cruz isn’t especially sound at fundamentals, let alone advanced concepts.
I said this above but given this post I again have to wonder about some of their decisions moving forward
Endy. Bart. Davis. Cutch. De La Cruz
Is the idea to keep all of these guys? If so, how is that going to be done? Will a couple get reps at 1st? If the idea is to bring Cutch back, the DH role is largely a moot point. Is De la Cruz back? If so, then RF is largely locked
I initially thought moving Cruz echoed the Padres move of Tatis. Worked well for them. But upon reflection, I wonder about Cruz’s ability to absorb needed instruction. Watching him go back on pop flies at short has often been adventure time, to say the least. So much to learn. He needs to understand pure athleticism alone won’t magically make him a decent outfielder
See my recent previous post on all of these players.
Endy and Davis are nothing. Until they show they can hit they have no future. Cruz is average at best unless they can improve him so he has no future until then. Just a place holder. If Bart maintains he will play. If you hit you play. They always find a spot for you. Cutch days are numbered. Guy doesn’t need to be a full time dh anymore. His body probably won’t let him. Someone else can DH 2 or 3 times a week. When Davis Endy become 800 900 ops hitters who cares what they do with Cruz and Cutch. But right now they are 600 ops hitters so who cares about their playing time. Right now they are ridding the Indy shuttle. Once Haines gets them crushing baseballs I promise you Sheltie will find a spot for them.
Your intelligence is nothing. Not even capable of realizing the context was the other Cruz.
“I said this above but given this post I again have to wonder about some of their decisions moving forward
Endy. Bart. Davis. Cutch. De La Cruz
Is the idea to keep all of these guys? If so, how is that going to be done? Will a couple get reps at 1st? If the idea is to bring Cutch back, the DH role is largely a moot point. Is De la Cruz back? If so, then RF is largely locked”
That’s what I replied to. You’re just not sharp enough to figure out the conversation. Casual! Lol
I tend to agree with Dream here, Bucco
What did Endy show you last year? What has Davis shown?
I think the point is that to date, they’ve shown nothing
I’m not sold on Cruz. He reminds me of Gregory Polanco in so many ways, aside from working like crazy to improve. Will this guy put in the work? Who knows? But he’s not irreplaceable by any means
A great deal of the troubles with young players emanate from management’s decision to make them comfortable at every turn. I hate to contrast these guys with a team like the O’s but youth-wise, it’s appropriate. Those kids play hard and with fire. They’ll go at it with other teams and umps. They hustle. Even their manager is invested
Here, it’s like watching zombies a lot of the time. To me, that starts with Shelton or whomever is pulling the strings.
De la Cruz must’ve heard you, Dream. He had a “career night”.
He’s a all star!
Don’t know what I did to Bucco roo. He wasn’t even part of the conversation. I replied to someone else. It’s fine to still reply. It’s fine to think I was talking about the other Cruz. It’s fine to think these players are going to be stars. It’s fine to say I am not a pro gm. You don’t see me trying to convince people I work in baseball and I have no desire to. I think a lot of people would be fine with it if I did. You obviously haven’t noticed but I have been on fire the past few years. Like I made some crazy statements. Bold would be a understatement. And I was right. On all of them. I’m bound to get something wrong at some point. I’m not a super intelligent primate. But you picked a really really really bad time to call me out like that because I been killing it. Don’t see any reason for such a personal attack though. But it’s fine as well. I been very fortunate and very happy so there’s nothing you can say to me to hurt my feelings. And if it makes you feel better about yourself then go ahead and fire insults away. Just might not want to do it to other people in a new article because they will ban you and you will have to get another user name.
You have been on fire. Well, where the Pirates are concerned, for short intervals, anyway. It’s the best one can do
Everywhere my friend. I recommend the Xander Bogaerts signing article. I called that perfect. My masterpiece is Sale trade. Everyone thought Sale was toast. Well obviously not everyone! Insert evil laugh here. I think it’s sustainable. I haven’t been doing this long. I played baseball so I wasn’t a “casual” but my first 2 or 3 years of getting into it much deeper I wasn’t nearly as good as my last 2 or 3 years. Anyone can do it though. Probably not as good as me. But if someone would have the desire to learn they could be the 2nd best commenter on MLBTR. Which is nice.
Senor- I tend to also disagree with Dream’s post.He is demeaning young players who have not had a chance to grow under the wonderful hitting coaching ability of the Pirates.Guys like Taylor will not change.But many Hofers did not blossom until several years into their careers.
The Pirates have to make the changes that Bucco( née Buuba)and I have preached for at least two years,before any of you.
Only then can these young players be fully evaluated.
I think you’re getting caught up in word play, if I’m reading Dream right. He wrote that they’re nothing but means they have shown nothing
I can’t disagree there
Can’t expect a casual like Mendoza to get it. They are currently nothing. Doesn’t mean that they can’t be something. My meaning is there is no reason to pick them positions until they hit. If they hit there will be a position for them. Until then Endy can’t play 1b, can’t catch, can’t do anything. He will be given a opportunity but if you pass on a Santana or Rowdy and just give Endy the job you are taking a risk. He could be Rowdy or could be Van Meter. I guess if I was bucco I would say he will be a star. But he hasn’t shown that yet. I’m not going to attempt to add it to my ever growing list of projections predictions. Let’s just say pirates fans should be hoping he can stick behind the plate and I think that’s possible.
Then he needs to word his posts much better.
It shows an arrogance when one calls anyone else “nothing” even if he explains it.
By “casual” do you mean someone who disagrees with you?Or are you todieing up to Mr Wood?
I seen lots of casuals here but first time I seen a casual who doesn’t know!
Homage to mr wood. Probably will get tired with it. Eventually.
Senor-Endy showed that he was a fine catcher as a rookie last year.I think that everyone agreed with that
Does that mean that he was a “nothing”?
How many fine catchers come up from the minors and instantly hit?
Joe Maurer,Buster Posey,Johnny Bench- who else?
Don’t you think it took him a year to concentrate on what he was doing in the hardest job on the diamond?
How do you think that Davis felt when he was jerked around just like Tucker and Hoy were?Would that make you feel like a “nothing” when you were told to play a grossly different position on the spur of the moment?
My point is that these guys need to learn how to hit in a conducive environment for it.
They have not been getting it in Pittsburgh.
I thought that you had more sense than to agree with that statement being a baseball man.
Dang Mendoza. Snark is impressive tonight. Reboots are the rage in Hollywood. Let’s get you and bucco and do a new grumpy old men!
“Savant listed Rodríguez’ pitch framing as a net neutral, with 0 runs added because of his ability to influence strike calls.”
0!!!! Nothing!!!!!
But if you value defense so much why not just bring Hedges back? He can at least frame!
Love the positive attitude though. Year 6 starts in 2 months. They haven’t improved a single hitter in 5 years but they just need more time! Wait until we get our Haines on him! Just ignore all the guys who were drafted after Davis who are hitting. Heck guys taken just last year are up at the mlb hitting! We got the best prep hitter in a decade, combination of Vlad and Boggs, just got promoted to AA!!! Drafted in 2022!!! But hey. Progress is progress. I’ll take it. Takes a guy dfa by the Giants, Cherington dumpster dived, to get hurt for Davis to get a mlb look. I’m so excited to see what Haines can do with him. Couldn’t even beat out Grandpal for a roster spot! But Haines will coach him up! He’ll be a all star!!!!
Not sure what you said in your non succinct way but maybe you get paid by the word.
My point is that good catchers first and foremost are good catchers first and foremost Endy hit well his last year in the minors and needs time to reach his natural level in the majors.
Until then his catching ability means that he is much more than a nothing.
you can’t refer to someone as casual without including “ Dude “ in their description
Again, I think you’re getting caught up in the wording, my friend. I certainly didn’t take Dream’s “nothing” comment to mean they are just throwaway players. Having read him for some time now, I took it to mean they’ve *shown* nothing
Dream doesn’t need my defense of course, but if there’s anyone who stands by players out of the five of us (you, he, TheMan, Bucco and I) it’s him, hence his “A+” pronouncements.
Endy was ok last season. You place him in good company when you talk of Bench et al, but he hasn’t shown he’s in that category. I hope he will, and that goes for Davis, too
I think we all do
It’s worth repeating that Endy has played at first base in the minors and at Indy so it’s not like he would have to learn from scratch
It would certainly prevent the need to sign a free agent first baseman and instead use that money to sign an actual run producer, and a third baseman
Hayes should be traded, his back will always be an issue and Triolo isn’t the answer for offensive production
It’s worth mentioning Endy has a .220 average and 612 ops. That doesn’t play anywhere unless he is a defensive gem. Needs another 200 ops to play 1b. If anyone can hit they always find a position for them. Until he does Endy can’t play anywhere. Not literally. It’s the Pirates so he can play awfully for years before they finally move on from him.
I can’t imagine any trade of Hayes where the Pirates do anything but dump a salary (and probably have to add a prospect for their trouble). As much as I would agree that it would be nice to move on, I can’t really envision how they’d accomplish that.
Endy is an OK option at 1B – one that probably isn’t going to be 100% at the start of the season – but I don’t see him as providing the kind of offensive production you’d want from a 1B. Rowdy is going to cost around $5 million for next season – they’re going to need a LOT more for an actual run producer.
Yeah, and that’s the problem in that grouping of guys to play the C-1B-RF spots. Lots of unproven talent both in terms of hitting
Endy is quoted as saying he’d like to come back in September. The Cruz move tells me they’re trying to plug guys in. But just like Cruz has had little practice in center, you have Endy and Davis who still need to show if they have abilities at catcher and/or 1st
And is Bart the long term answer back there? So far so good
It’s all interesting to ponder. Here again, you hope they have coaches who can impart some wisdom, and quickly
Dream always saw the wisdom of trading guys at the height of their value. Bednar. Reynolds. Perhaps even Keller
I think Hayes falls into the idea that the ability to get what they need by trading him is long gone.
There are no long term options until Reynolds Keller Hayes are off the books. If they can do 1 more they will try for someone other than Bart like maybe that Skenes guys. Extension or trade. If a small market team can only spend 120m. Pittsburgh probably closer to 110m. Nutting factor makes it 100m. Doesn’t leave room for many long term guys. If Bart keeps hitting he can play anywhere. He’s ok enough as a catcher. But since your team is so awful he has to bat in heart of lineup you will want to give him lots of rest. So sign another Grandpal, hopefully one that can throw out a runner, and if Davis and Endy ever hit they can even both of them play catcher. Endys only problem is hitting. If he hits there will always be a spot for him. I am confident both can hit. At least be above average players, if they were with another team. With the Pirates I have no idea. Have no idea if Haines will be back. Would anyone be surprised if he is back next year? I sure hope he is fired. But I have no idea. I think Shelton should be fired but if I was forced to guess I would say he is back. It’s a coin flip for me but seems so Pirates to bring him back. I want Shelton fired. Guys a clown. One week it’s October baseball when every odds site has you at like single digit odds. One week Cruz is our SS and the next he is in CF. How many teams just throw a guy out to a new position in the middle of the season? Pirates do it all the time.
Your insights are probably dead on but really, they’re out of time. You’re talking extended rebuild with outtakes,really
They have to put in max work on the guys I named above. They need millions of reps, millions of swings. They need to play fall and winter ball
And then management needs to make decisions. Who gets plugged in where. And if there is still a question about a player, they need to be on the block.
The Indy Shuttle needs to be shut down for everything except injury
You’re right. Player development is pathetic. And I’m guessing it made the front office extremely indecisive about just who can play at this level
But they’re past due where decision making is concerned
Reynolds is LF. Hayes 3b until they say otherwise. Cruz and Bart will play somewhere. Gonzales will play 2b and he can play outfield if need be. Cutch could be and likely will be back. Paul will be like he already said he wants to play in 2025. Troy Polamalu wanted to keep playing too. Sometimes you gotta old yeller them. I’d guess they bring him back though. IkF has a spot. Although extend or trade! Cruz I don’t think they will non tender or trade a guy they just traded for and probably want to get their Haines on him. Davis will catch some. Endy will catch some, play some 1b rf even 2b if needed. Yorke can play 2b lf. Cooke any outfield 2b 1b. Triolo will glove where needed.
Point is they got nothing. Reynolds Bart Cruz. Everyone else ideally needs replaced. DH is supposed to be a elite hitter or a rest spot. Not a lock down for a old above average hitter. Gonzales is fine. Average. You settle for him but you hope someone forces him out. Cruz you settle for. Davis Endy Yorke Cooke haven’t done anything. If they do great. But right now you hope the Pirates wonderful development makes them into something other than average. You have 13 spots and only 3 are filled. Lots of opportunities. No one is blocked. You don’t even need to hit at a all star level. If you can hit better than a 37 year old soon to be 38 who is both figuratively and literally on his last leg you got a spot.
Senor- If the rebuild is over they need to do what they did a couple of days ago and start making bold decisions and that is not by trading their best players.
Otherwise,Paul is exactly right.It is always next year.
Nutting and Cherington need to make a run for it now.
I used to laugh at the idea that the “rebuild is over” but really, what else can you say? I’ll spare you the ‘69 Chevelle SS analogy but it applies here
They banked on a number of guys being more than they actually were. Now they’re in a tough spot
And yes, the Cruz idea is reassuring. But they have a pool of guys they simply must plug in, including Davis, Endy, Yorke, Cooke to go along with Bart and De La Cruz. It’s incumbent upon them to develop bats and gloves. This franchise’s player development wing makes me wonder if that’s even feasible
There was no reason to laugh or doubt my statement. It was a fact, not an opinion. I get it though, your thinking was that it has to bear fruit. Not over until they have a winning record or win division. It’s more simple then that. What is a rebuild? How do you rebuild? You trade away everyone who isn’t going to be under team control in 4 or 5 years when you plan on competing. They did that. You lose 100 games a year so you can get top draft picks. Did that. So no one left to trade. Starting pitching is too good to lose 100 games. You start signing free agents. It’s over. Heck they even bought at the deadline. Didn’t trade Holderman Bednar. You see all the relievers Rays traded? Pittsburgh isn’t fully on board with our be the Rays vision. Good news is even trying to contend they got good draft picks. Connor was quite the present at number 9. They should pick in top 9 again next year. Not as good as top 5 or 4 or #1 but the higher the better.
Another casual moving Cruz to DH!
I warn you Dream.
Don’t get Travis started on you.
He is relentless.
You mean you’re still paying attention to him? If you put his brain in a bird, the bird would fly backwards
Lololol I haven’t slept in a few nights because of him… I hate being a casual
Halle-effing-lujah!
Senor-I think one for the young pitchers and the others that I mentioned can be included to sweeten the deal.
It would have to be with young unproven teams who are taking chances on these young players.
The Pirates have enough of them that if they can add the significant players they can afford to get rid of the extra players.
Paul
Endy hit like 220 last year with just a few home runs.Do you think that anywhere near that will give you the output required for a bona fide first baseman?
No GM can work miracles in trading a player who may have permanent physical issues and who has a long term contract.
On one hand, I understand and agree with Cherington’s reluctance to trade young players here or on the farm in his dealings. But now with the rebuild complete, I’m hoping the emphasis comes down to some acknowledgement that they have the players here and it’s a matter of plugging people in. That includes pitchers.
Only then can they trade from the stockpile
Maybe they’re finally trying to get a jump on the process. Maybe they can finally make some solid decisions
Senor- If Cherington has a plan that is it.
I think that he is figuring out who are the boys and who are the teenagers.
Unless he makes trades whoever is the manager will be working with a mediocre starting nine though.
I just want to know where the guy who predicted they’d win over 82 and finish in 2nd the other day is
I predicted 78-82 wins in March after being right in ‘23. I’m thinking I was a bit optimistic with that prediction
Bright eyes said they would make the playoffs in 2022 and win the division in 2023. Still waiting.
2025 2026 should be the year though. Houston Chicago Baltimore 5 to 6 years. That’s not a prediction. Based on history that’s what one should have thought in 2021. I like to compare it to a car. Rebuilds over but you got some leaks, some mixed and match parts, black smoke. It’s over but you wished you did a better with the end product.
Will give Cherington credit. He didn’t start the rebuild until 2021 and by 2023 it was over. 2024 it was over for sure. Microwave instant rebuild. He did what he could. Don’t know anyone that could have done much better. Not even me! Been a great gm other than not good enough, no om enough, not even close enough development. And not firing Haines. And not firing Shelton for not firing Haines. But that’s all Cherington. He loves Haines. That’s what he wants. You just can’t have so many guys getting fixed and giving zero credit to your teams coaches. Even worse so many guys not getting fixed by anyone.
You’re using my car rebuild analogy?
Yeah, but correct the context. This one is shiny. New mag wheels and tires. But the brakes are shot, it leaks oil in three places and it smells like someone puked in the backseat
I’m not about to make a prediction until late winter but it’s difficult to see this team as a playoff contender next year. So many holes, so little offense, and so much indecision
Samuel has this team down pretty pat. Maybe that’s what it takes, someone who’s a casual observer. Bright Eyes sees things through rose colored glasses. To him, the glass is 90% full and a number of their players border on all star status. Hey, he has the analytics to prove it
I like the promise of their starters, but it ain’t the ‘69 Mets, ‘71 Orioles or the Braves staff of the 90’s. Keller’s recent starts and Jones tonight proved why I have trepidation
Left as is, this is a 70 win team or something of the sort
Bryan De La Cruz has a batting average of .308 with 16 hits, a home run, 11 RBIs and 8 runs since August 12
Another A+ post.
All Star numbers if you add them with Joe!
Just me giving everyone a std. Stat of the day for you casuals.
Connor Joe is hitting .286 with 2 hits, a home run, 2 RBIs and a run scored since August 25!!!!!!!
and struck out three times last night
It’s those Taiwanese ladyboys getting to your head again, Dream. You need Uchiyama to straighten you out
Rowdy Tellez has a .294 batting average with 59 hits, 10 home runs, 36 RBIs and 24 runs since June 1
Yasmani Grandpal has a .281 batting average with 18 hits, 5 homers, 8 RBIs and 10 runs since July 5
Bart the catcher of the future? I don’t think so!!!!!!
What has our #1 overall pick done since July 5? 1 hit! That’s it! That’s absolute ….! Grandpal is the future!
all of that successful hitting is useless when your pitching gives up 27 runs in two games while striking out 20 times in those two games
They’re gonna place their hopes on their starting pitching next season, point blank. They have no recourse. Unfortunately, it’s a different era. This is nothing approaching Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Avery, guys who could be counted to shut down teams for 7+ innings almost every time out
Now, it’s hope for 5-6 innings and pray your relievers come through. Even then, Keller and Jones need to find ways to pitch when one or two of their pitches aren’t effective. You can’t possibly throw dead red here and think it’s not gonna get hit
With that in mind, whomever the other two starters turn out to be will need some adjustment period. As is, does anyone see this team winning more than 75 next season?
Dream keeps posting stats for guys like Tellez and Grandpal. And Shelton keeps playing Taylor. Somehow, I keep hearing Branch Rickey telling Ralph Kiner, “We can lose without you too, son” as he was being traded. These guys and Joe and Bae should be told that they can make beach plans for next week. Start plugging the making guys in now.
If you choose to be, you persons should be the most educated well informed Pirates fans in the universe. I glance at other places and they still think Grandpal is awful. And he’s not this good. That’s what my formula I created does. Ignores what they have done and shows what they would do over 10 or 100 thousand plate appearances. He shouldn’t be hitting .286 now and he shouldn’t have been hitting .171 before July 5. If he never improved or regressed or aged he would hit .240 the next 100 years. Past results are irrelevant. I want to know the future. I get the analytics hate because what 90 some percent use is worthless. It’s just a more advanced way to evaluate past results.
Senor-I think that there will be major changes next year now that BC,like the Dennis Green rant,knows what he has got.
He has to do something to justify his job.
Give him time to work on it instead of blaming him for all the mistakes he will make learning the position.He may be good or he might fall completely on his face.If you play one position your whole life then have to learn a new position in the majors.i wish him luck.I love the comment of nobody has played the position at his size.Nobody ever played a person that big in the infield.He was either an outfielder ,pitcher or First baseman.
seems like a well-duh. one of if not the worst regular SSs in the league.
It was fairly obvious from the start of his pro-ball career this would be the case but he likes short stop so they let him do it to keep him happy. Hopefully now despite this he realizes that it just isn’t a thing and should only be there if they are in a pinch or somehow get a true CF and end up with no Middle infielders that can be around average over all. The only real thing he has going for him at short is that rocket launcher of an arm.
Cruz cutting back the Ks even a little bit could make him an elite player to match his elite talent. He has the physical attributes to be that guy.