A couple of weeks ago, in a piece for Front Office subscribers, MLBTR's Steve Adams highlighted some clubs that he figured could walk a buy/sell tightrope at the deadline. The teams he featured are all contenders, but with enough starting pitching options that they could plausibly "sell" a pitcher or two while still trying to compete here in 2024. In recent weeks, there's one other rotation that has suddenly become quite crowded as the team has been climbing in the standings.
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The pirates are sure in an interesting spot
They got one of the best top 3 man rotation in the league
Personally not 100% sold on Jones, I was seeing some disturbing things before he hit the shelf. He has to learn how to pitch a little more and throw a little less.
They’ve got a cupboard full of interesting arms at nearly every level (Chandler, in particular, is raking at AA), but clearly need bats – more specificially OBP-type guys to put pressure on opponents. They are wholly capable of scoring runs when they get a fair amount of traffic on the bases, but don’t have those situations enough.
If they could get in the playoffs they could be dangerous.
All they need now is about half a dozen mlb caliber hitters
Hey now, it’s more like 4: 3B, CF, RF and 1B
Hayes is currently 8 for his last 20 plate appearances with only one strikeout. He’s been hitting the ball with more authority and does best hitting the ball to the opposite field
Palacios has come around since being promoted and is effective in right field
But center field and first base are problematic for the Bucs. Taylor is a very good defender of center field but is having a horrible offensive season as is Jack Suwinski
While Tellez has come on over the past month, his power numbers are still pathetic for a first baseman
Hayes has a 72 wRC+ and his exit velocity and bat speed has plummeted this year. He’s toast. Palacios is a bench bat your announcers can gush about because he’s “high energy”. He’s not a starting OF. They have one of those in Reynolds and need a CF and RF. I’m gonna stick with they need 4 MLB bats to start thinking about playoff runs.
All I said was that he has improved as of late. Besides, Hayes is a master defender at third base
Say what you want about Palacios, both Shelton and Cherington make the decisions and he’s probably not going anywhere
But they do need a center fielder who can hit
you conveniently forgot to mention that Hayes has endured back problems again which has effected his offense.
Your claim that he’s toast is one of pure stupidity
The back is why he’s toast, stupid.
calling my comment “ stupid “ reveals your ignorance and lack of maturity
Players get injured throughout their careers, are they all “ toast “, too ?
Maybe Martin Perez for someone like Randall Grichuk?
Depends how Perez looks next start. A starting pitcher for a weak platoon isn’t a fair trade. But if he doesn’t look sharp and Arizona is in need of a pitcher it makes sense. If Perez comes out and looks like he did before injury they could get a everyday player or reliever.
Generally speaking I agree with you. But there is a scarcity of bats this year and Grichuk is better than what they have. He’s probably a starter for the Pirates unless Suwinski starts hitting. I looked around and didn’t see many obvious matches. Do you like Jason Heyward more than Grichuk?
I don’t think Milwaukee is going to give up one of their young outfielders for Martin Perez, especially to a division rival.
If the Pirates go below 500 the next 10 days they will be selling off every rental for prospects. With the schedule that could easily happen.
Grichuk doesn’t help much. Suwinski plays cf. Shouldn’t but does. Joe is pretty much Grichuk. Would be a tiny upgrade. Extra bat. Extra depth.
Winker is the ideal player to get as a strong platoon. Pillar who might be able to play some cf? I haven’t seen him lately. He was always over rated. But as good as Suwinski is the bar.
Ward Bleday are the best fits over a rental if they are available.
Easiest just to trade prospects for what you want and trade rentals for prospects.
Pirates are in an odd position. They have good enough pitching to make the playoffs but while their lineup needs work, a lot of guys are locked in their spots. Say what you will about Tellez, but he’s turned it around and not many 1b on the market who’d be an upgrade. Catcher is tough too because Bart has looked very good offensively and would a guy like Diaz or Stallings work out? Center field would be the obvious upgrade or a solid hitting outfielder who can unfortunately put Suwinski on the bench. Just have to hope guys like Hayes and Cruz pick it up. Maybe give Cutch less DH time if he keeps struggling.
Cutch’s forte is drawing walks and leads the team in bases on balls. They’ve tried others to bat lead off and everyone has failed
He’s 37 years old and actually has hit a double in three of his last three games. Part of the problem is having to rely heavily on Cruz to drive him in and instead Cruz strikes out.
Cruz has struck out a team leading 112 times
I don’t think he’s awful. He still had a great eye and gets on base to an extent, but if they upgrade the roster, I wouldn’t have a problem sitting him sometimes vs righties for Tellez or Palacios.
Rowdy is a good defensive first baseman. Speaking of first basemen, Carlos Santana wanted to return to the Bucs for this season but wanted $5 million
Instead of course, Cherington signed Rowdy for $3.2 million I suppose to save money
Santana has hit 14 homers and has driven in 39 runs, both far more than Rowdy
Pirates seen the few red flags Santana had of declining and seen them bigger than what they were.
Seen the upside in Rowdy but didn’t plan on his brutal slump.
A smart team would have signed both like I suggested they do. In 2023 they signed Santana and traded for Choi. Why not get 2 this year.
what red flags did they see from Santana. Dream? He was a finalist for a GG at first base. If his age was the red flag, then why bring back Cutch?
Face it, they signed Rowdy because his ask price was lower than what Santana wanted
I don’t remember. I looked into them in the fall. Something like his bat speed or hard hit. Maybe launch angle. Minor drops. Nothing that should scare you off of 5m. I don’t think it was $. If they had 10.5 for Chapman they could have found another 2 for Santana. They got 2m from trading JT. They can’t be worried about 2m and then spend 10m. They could have signed a cheaper reliever or none at all. Seems they preferred Rowdy.
Cutch is for pr and marketing. Didn’t show any signs of decline that I remember. If he did you would risk it with him. Maybe they didn’t like having a strong leader in Santana.
I’d love to see the Bucs trade maybe three pitchers (say Ortiz, Falter, Chandler and Harrington) and a position player prospect to get Crochet. He’s not making a boatload of money and if they can reach the playoffs, that’s some kinda rotation.
As much as I like Crochet, I think your package of pitchers is too steep in that trade offer. If I’m trading that group, I’m after a big time OF bat controllable for multiple years (a la Luis Robert)
WSox very much need to acquire near ready/ready position players in a Crochet deal rather than pitchers. They are deficient beyond belief in everyday lineup talent & ability to internally develop it. That’s why Balt and LAD match up better.
Maybe Toronto and Pitt fit better for trade partners?
How the ChiSox fell this far this fast is pretty amazing. I know, Reinsdorf, but still.
It seems like just the other day that they had a very potent 8-man lineup. Now, a team with next to nothing like Detroit just laughs at them.
I know at least a few of the reasons but it never had to be like this.
pitching alone isn’t enough, and their offense simply isn’t good enough to take this team to the promised land
They are third to the last in runs scored
I agree man3. If they can’t acquire bats (trade, free agency), they’re wasting their good pitching. It may not even be good enough to get to the post season. And if they did make the playoffs, the lineup is too weak to support the solid starters. Cherington/Nutting may let a valuable opportunity slip away if they dont seize the moment. Frustrating for the Pittsburgh fan base to watch helplessly
You’d have to throw Robert in there too for all that. The upgrade at one SP isn’t with losing three of them and prospect trade chips. He may not be pitching late September.
I love the Robert stuff…….the cherry-picked stats! The athletic body!! The long drives!!! The running speed!!!! The strong arm!!!!!
Sure, he can hit at times….make nice catches and throws. Run fast. But while the screwball things he does on the field playing major league baseball doesn’t have me shaking my head – I got used to it years ago (and I’m not a White Sox fan so I only see some of their games) – it’s gotten to the point this year where I’ve been watching a team play the Sox and their announcers have to bend over backwards to politely point out on a replay that what Roberts, Jr. just did was something they seldom – if ever – see at the ML level. Happened 3 or 4 times this year. I lost count. And again, I don’t even see the Sox that much.
He’s 26 years-old and in his 5th ML season.
Crochet is a reliever at best this year if not shut down for the season early. Has little value this year so no reason to pay for this year. Pirates young pitchers are cheap and under control for years. Why trade them for someone near free agency. Trade them for bat if anything. And doubt Chandler would be included.
Trading away your future for one player is too reminiscent of the Chris Archer debacle
Crochet is one injury away from needing TJ surgery and then what do you have?
The sad thing is anyone they could get in return for Perez or Gonzalez is probably someone they should have just signed in the offseason anyway.
It’s similar to the Cardinals in 2022. If they had just ponied up and signed a guy like Quintana before the season, they wouldn’t have had to trade Oviedo to get him.
I don’t blame mid and small market clubs for avoiding the long term mega deals. But if a club thinks it has a chance to win and a veteran on a one year deal for less than five million could help, they should pull the trigger and not wait for the deadline.
Don;
The Cardinals have high revenues. The Pirates don’t.
Going into the season the Pirates’ FO had no way of knowing they’d be contenders at the All-Star break…..for the last Wild Card spot…..along with 6 other teams.
They could well have gotten stuck with a high multi-year contract of a FA player that has a bad year, or got hurt – in both cases causing them a budget problem. And they still can get stuck if they make a bad move here.
While the silly expanded playoffs go on in all 4 of the major team sports leagues, the outrageous discrepancy of franchises’ revenue in MLB – where there is little real revenue sharing compared to the other 3 leagues – presents an inequity during these frenzied trade deadlines. Small market MLB teams simply cannot take many risks – both in the off-season and at the deadline. Even a small one that fails can put their ML team behind for a year or more.
You’re right, though I’d go a step further to point out that long-term FA contracts are not feasible if you cannot grow your revenue within your market. St. Louis has a larger area from which to draw fans and more people to sell to, they are not as saturated in their market as the Pirates are. Like many other teams, the Cardinals are worth nearly twice as much as the Pirates as a franchise, which allows them to more easily raise capital to invest in more revenue streams.
To provide a relatable example of what you’re saying: You buy a car with a $500/mo. payment, which was right at the top of your budget. It turns out to be a lemon and you’re forced to trade it in for less than you owe. Your new financing now includes $150/mo to pay off the first loan, now you can only afford a $350/mo. car. If you’re $350/mo car also turns out to be a lemon, your transportation budget becomes a bus pass while you’re paying for two vehicles you can’t use.
A wealthier person can afford $1500/mo in car loans, so if the $500/mo car is a lemon, no harm there, they can’t still afford a great vehicle while paying off the other one. And their budget keeps on growing due to having extra money to invest, while you’re struggling to keep the lights on.
More teams are finding themselves in the “poor” group, while owners and the MLBPA bury their heads in the sand regarding the long-term economic viability of the sport.
Pirates didn’t see Suwinski being awful. Thought Taylor would be slightly better. Thought Olivares would be better. Didn’t see Tellez in a brutal slump and Joe having to play so much 1b. They could have signed someone though. Or better yet traded. Situation should have been better though.
Yes they believed everything that you said, Dream but they went the cheap route as usual when they signed Taylor and traded for Oliveras while expecting better offensive run production from their low pricing decisions
Say what you will about Pirates organization, but they definitely appear to have unlocked the secret to developing Pitchers.
Losing lots of games for lots of years.
Correct Scott.
Pirates threads on MLBTR have become a joke,
I’m going to predict a typical Pirates trade: Paul Skenes, Jones, Keller and Bednar for Rich Hill.
Except that Rich Hill is an unsigned free agent
Billeruski
Why don’t you contribute something useful instead of the trolling posts. Give it a break
Pirates suck every year and will continue. They don’t develop good sticks and don’t spend on free agents. Big deal they paid Reynolds’s. Will they pay those 3 pitchers?
Well they are .500 right now so I don’t consider that sucking. And no, most likely they will not pay Skenes unless they can get him signed in a hurry and buy out 1-2 fa years. Probably less than 5 teams who can pay what he’s worth in 5 years.
That’s a tall order – they’d need something on the order of $25M AAV over at least 7 years to even get him to consider it in my opinion. From the Pirates POV, you’re paying around $80 million that otherwise wouldn’t while he’s under team control to get two years where you’d save maybe $25 million between the two.
You could end up with Strasburg 2.0 while paying millions for him to sit at home, or you keep rolling the dice by not moving on locking him up and reaching the scenario you’re saying, where only the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Mets and Astros are able and willing to shell out what he’s worth.
And if you could somehow get him for that and he gets even better, you now have $60 million tied up between Keller, Hayes, Reynolds and Skenes when the realistic upper limit of any Pirates’ payroll is probably around $130 million. You’ll need another $7-8 million for Bednar next season, and another $16 million for pre-arb players. You’re already at this year’s payroll, and you haven’t even addressed needs at 1B, CF, re-signing Cutch (or getting someone else), and getting a couple more bullpen arms. That pretty much puts them near the brink in terms of operating budget, and that’s not even addressing Jones.
Already paid Keller. Have years to decide on Skenes Jones. They will sign them if it makes sense. Or trade them if it makes sense.
do you realize that Pittsburgh is a small market town for baseball, Seaver rules and doesn’t have the same revenue that teams like New York or LA ?
Jones is a rookie, he needed rest…he will be fine….although I can’t say thst about your so called knowledge of how he should pitch. Leave the coaching to the experts
Hey man 3….just wanted to see what you think…pirates pundit 51 sound like dream gm to me.
Guy who is obnoxiously irrelevant
His opinion didn’t bother me as much as the person that called me “ stupid “
No doubt there’s an abundance of immature people who post their opinions here
The titles for these longer-form pieces are getting pretty clickbaity.
I am predicting a three game sweep by the Phillies this weekend partially because Shelton decided to wait until the series with the Cardinals to pitch Keller and Skenes even though it would have been Keller’s turn to pitch Saturday and Skenes’ turn to pitch Sunday