Guardians ace Shane Bieber will soon be undergoing a Tommy John surgery after experiencing elbow pain in each of his last two starts, the team announced. Bieber will miss the rest of the 2024 season and roughly half of the 2025 season, as per the usual recovery timeline for TJ procedures. As initially reported by MLB.com’s Mandy Bell, right-hander Peter Strzelecki has been called to take Bieber’s roster spot, now that the Guards have officially placed Bieber on the 15-day injured list. (He’ll inevitably be moved to the 60-day IL when Cleveland next needs to open a 40-man roster spot.)
The devastating news comes on the heels of an injury-shortened 2023 campaign for the right-hander, as Bieber was limited to 128 innings while missing about two and a half months due to elbow inflammation. He returned from the 60-day injured list to make two starts in late September, which seemingly indicated that the problem was behind him, and that Bieber could now look forward to a more normal offseason and ramp-up routine. However, as the Guardians’ statement indicates, Bieber had some discomfort in his elbow following his first start this year, and the problem continued through his next outing.
Certainly nothing appeared to be amiss in terms of results, given that Bieber looked completely dominant in tossing 12 shutout innings and recording 20 strikeouts (against just one walk and 10 hits allowed) over his two starts. This will now unfortunately mark the last we’ll see of Bieber on a big league mound for the next 13-15 months, and we might have already seen his final outing in a Cleveland uniform since he is a free agent this winter.
It counted as something of a surprise to see Bieber even still with the Guardians on Opening Day, given how it was widely assumed that the right-hander would be traded in advance of his walk year. The Guards have routinely traded star players within 12-18 months of free agency since the organization is rarely (Jose Ramirez notwithstanding) willing to pay the money necessary to sign such prominent names to contract extensions. As frustrating as this process has been for Cleveland fans, the front office’s track record in these trades has been pretty successful, and some of the players gained in those deals have helped the Guardians to remain competitive despite low payrolls.
If it wasn’t for his elbow issue last season, it is quite possible the Guards might’ve dealt Bieber at the last trade deadline. His health status surely impacted his trade value this past winter, as despite reports linking the Angels, Dodgers, Reds, Yankees, and Cubs to Bieber’s market, Cleveland wasn’t able to work out a deal with any of these (and undoubtedly many other) interested suitors. It’s easy to say now in the wake of Bieber’s Tommy John surgery that the Guardians should’ve moved him for whatever half-decent offer they received, though we don’t know what offers were on the table, and naturally the Guards weren’t keen on selling low on such a valuable trade asset.
There’s also the value of what Bieber brought to Cleveland’s own rotation, as the Guardians were hit with a lot of injuries to notable starters in 2023. The team’s outstanding pitching development pipeline helped cover this problem in impressive fashion with the emergence of Gavin Williams, Tanner Bibee, and Logan Allen, and going into this season, the idea of that young trio teaming with Bieber and the returning Triston McKenzie seemed like a promising step in the Guards’ plans to return to contention. However, Williams started the season on the 15-day IL due to elbow discomfort, and both Ben Lively and Xzavion Curry are also on the IL since a virus set the two pitchers back during Spring Training.
Veteran Carlos Carrasco has already stepped into the rotation in Williams’ place, and the Guardians will now have to hope for a quick recovery from either Lively or Curry with Bieber gone for the season. Jaime Barria is also a candidate to pick up starts in the short term, or Hunter Gaddis or Tyler Beede could be stretched out from their current relief roles, or used in a piggyback/bulk starter capacity.
A fourth-round pick in the 2016 draft, Bieber became the latest star product of the Cleveland pitching factory when he made his MLB debut in 2018, and then finished fourth in AL Cy Young Award voting in 2019. That breakout year led to Bieber winning the Cy during the shortened 2020 season, when he posted a 1.63 ERA over 77 1/3 innings. While the season’s abbreviated nature carries an obvious asterisk, it was just the 13th time in MLB history that a pitcher led the entire league in ERA, wins (eight), and strikeouts (122) in the same year.
Bieber hasn’t since returned to those heights, though he still has a 3.13 ERA in 436 2/3 innings from 2021-24, and he was an All-Star in 2021 and a seventh-place finisher in Cy Young Award voting in 2022. With this success came increasingly larger paydays throughout Bieber’s arbitration-eligible years, culminating in the arb-avoiding $13.125MM deal he signed for 2024. A big bounce-back season would’ve therefore set him up quite nicely for a pricey free agent contract in the 2024-25 offseason, especially if he could’ve avoided a qualifying offer via a midseason trade from the Guardians.
As it stands now, Bieber might have to wait quite some time to score a hefty multi-year commitment. Even if he pitches well after returning partway through the 2025 season, clubs might want to see a larger sample size of good health and good results before guaranteeing a nine-figure salary. Assuming then that Bieber pitched well and stays healthy throughout 2026, he might then have a safer track record….but teams could then be wary of Bieber’s age, since 2027 would be his age-32 season.
Under the circumstances, there is a chance the Guardians could yet retain Bieber into 2025, as unlikely as this scenario would’ve seemed even a few days ago. Cleveland might look to extend Bieber through the 2025 campaign or even both the 2025-26 seasons, on a low salary for 2025 and then the rest of the money backloaded into 2026. We’ve seen such contractual models used for other pitchers recovering from lengthy injury rehabs, most recently Brandon Woodruff’s two-year, $17.5MM deal to re-sign with the Brewers less than two months ago. If Bieber and the Guards had interest in such an arrangement, Bieber could complete his entire rehab in a familiar environment, and the Guardians could still get some benefit from having Bieber for part of 2025 and perhaps 2026.
This is getting TRAGIC!!!
Maybe it’s the pitch clock. Less time for the arm to recover between pitches.
That and a new found obsession with velo/spin rates, all while not being allowed to use the ‘sticky stuff’.
It’s a perfect storm of factors directly affecting SP’s,
Terrier – Right you are.
And Bieber, like many, are still in their 20’s. Those who think only pitchers over 30 are TJS candidates are delusional, if not ageists.
A big reason for hive AAV, shorter term deals or even a different type of deal where the contract gets extended but the player gets half pay while on long term IL. If the procedure has a a 10 – 15 month average recovery time, extend by one year. If a player makes $30m, he gets $15m while rehabbing, etc. Tweak it to improve on the idea.
Fever Pitch… I don’t think anyone anywhere thinks that only pitchers over 30 are TJS candidates.
Not only 20-somethings, but college and high school kids have been getting TJ for decades. Every teams’ minor league system currently has 10 – 20 pitchers recovering from TJ at any given time.
@Terrier1980 like in sports we have to relearn the same lessons over and over and what used to be common sense basics now is somehow new. In the 90s and 2000s I remember all the discussion around how starters have to know when to throw that full effort pitch in the right moments, but lay off full effort for most of the game. You also heard how a splitter was just asking for a dead arm and how if you throw a curve a certain way before your arm develops enough that can kill your arm long term. Now we have guys in high school throwing 97 mph playing a full season then the summer circuit all full effort. No wonder guys don’t last.
The union will never agree to half-pay while on the long-term IL.
Agree? Terms in the CBA are negotiated and if owners stop giving long deals to pitchers, is it collusion? If not, work something out. This is like a Workers’ Compensation situation where the worker gets injured on the job (or even off the field if it didn’t violate the terms of the contract) yet they get full pay and years get used up so if they recover, they can potentially get another deal. By giving the club the option to extend the deal (not explained originally as an option), the player gets the added year to work out the kinks and the team gets immediate savings to invest in a replacement player.
geoff – Agreed. I mentioned the age thing only because there are many people here who DO constantly say pitcher-so-and-so is an injury risk because they are over 30. And it’s annoying.
Black – Superb post! More than anything it’s the max effort because of the expanded bullpens and short outings. Reducing the pitcher limit on rosters to 11 or 12 would definitely help, which MLB has talked about. They’ve also talked about requiring pitchers to stay with the MLB club for a minimum number of days whenever they are called up, which is another solid idea.
You just said many others are in their 20’s which is why nobody thinks only pitchers in their 30’s get it
Look at the guy who just officially retired. Strasburg. Needed it his rookie season
Suit: I said the same thing when they reduced the time to 18 seconds.
Here’s a question for Manfred: Is the brevity of the game worth the best pitchers in the game taking years off due to injury? My opinion – no.
If the answer is in fact no, why not try to increase it to 25 seconds like the players initially recommended and see if it cuts down on the problem. If it works, we know what the problem was. If it doesn’t, plan from that point forward.
Either way, this isn’t good for the game.
Manfred, who no doubt has never thrown a baseball faster than 40, if ever, makes these ridiculous rules to “speed up the game” without considering the ramifications. I’d love to see a former player as commissioner, not a corporate suit.
I think it’s a combination of velo and the pitch clock. Pitchers used to work at a similar pace as the pitch clock requires and didn’t have the problems they do now when they were pitching slower.
If the goal is to increase action, perhaps injuring more pitchers is all part of the scheme!!
Manfreds #1 job is to make money and increase the value of the franchises and the game..hes done that job amazingly well which is why the owners love him . They could care less fans hate him..thats part of his job..ie taking bullets for them. which former player can do that job? Dont ever forget the owners look at this more as a business than a game..always have always will. Now with all the young talent flooding in they could care less if they lose a few more to injury..since there is always the next hot prospect to come along and fill the spot so long as the money keeps rolling in which it very much is.
Clip – Sorry I’ll say it again, the numbers don’t support the Pitch Clock Theory. It’s the throwing at max velocity and obsession with spin rates that are the leading contributors to TJS.
2023 – 8
2022 – 10
2021 – 17
2020 – 15
2019 – 9
2018 – 30
2017 – 22
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baseball_players_who…
Fever Pitch Guy, we don’t need your so-called facts. We already figured out it’s the pitch clock. thanks tho
mlb.com/news/pitch-timer-effect-on-mlb-injuries
There is no correlation yet between pitch clock and injuries. It may turn out to a correlation, or even causation, but that won’t be known for years.
If they could care *less,* that means they do care, at least a little.
The obsession with pitch counts, the radar gun, and babying pitchers is more of a factor than a pitch clock. Still, I don’t know why they reduced it, it was fine as is since you saw a noticeable reduction in game times, which was apparently the goal.
I have said it before, people spend three hours watching the No Fun League, the most popular sport. Manfred was looking in the wrong place as to the problems with the game. But his large market masters won’t allow him to tackle the real problem, which is the revenue inequities mainly from the local TV deals and the RSN fiasco.
They have lost fans in flyover country for years they will most likely never get back. Young people are not playing the game and fewer watching it. The average baseball fan is 50. Bad signs all around for the future of the game.
I believe this list may need some additions due to similar surgeries that weren’t specifically called TJ, but had pretty much the same process. I believe Story and Harper had stories like these.
Manfred’s job, like every commissioner in every major sport is making money for the owners, and to guide their respective franchises through turbulent times with the players
In my opinion, every respective commissioner’s job should be held by a former player of that specific sport
Manfred doesn’t have the player’s best interest at heart and shouldn’t be in his position
But it’s not the pitch clock
Personally, I appreciate Fever Pitch Guy’s observation so please don’t speak for me when you claim that “ we don’t need your so-called-facts
Harper was listed, but they haven’t updated it for this year yet. In the past week Eury Perez and Shane Bieber both go it
Noah Song too for those who know the Red Sox farm system
Uh, There are other injuries than TJ.
FPG: While I understand what you’re saying, I think isolating the potential results of the pitch clock on pitching arms to only TJS is a mistake. I think we should be looking at arm/shoulder injuries in total, including those that don’t necessarily result in surgeries. But, correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation either.
Either way, Baseball Prospectus had a good article, which references another good article on arm injuries.
MLB found no correlation, but are they a trustworthy source of information at this point? I mean, look at the entire baseball construction debacle.
I think there is great potential when combining high-stress actions under increasing fatigue to cause injuries.
Well, those are facts, but isolated ones. Have you researched it at all because pitching injuries are actually worse than ever.
It may be debatable as to why, but to dismiss a legitimate theory outright seems….less factually considerate than the alternative.
Plus, I never implied it was the sole cause, but that there is a correlation, imo.
Fever, how dare you support an argument with actual data in this forum.
Here’s some date for you:
baseballprospectus.com/news/article/88821/did-the-…
But I do appreciate FPG’s response. It’s intellectual and data driven, unlike many others’ comments that simply opine critically.
Yep. Nerds represent! The correct expression is they COULDN’T care less.
Clip, not only does correlation not mean causation, causation is impossible to prove with out an experiment. This is an observational study right now. An experiment would be essentially impossible so we are never going to know the effect of the pitch clock. I think the question would be how long it takes the body to re-oxygenate after maximum effort. At least that’s the best I can come up with. That could totally be done as an experiment or at least attempted. I actually think there are a whole host of factors at play and their effect would vary from person to person. The problem is often people trying to do something that is beyond their ability for the mere reason that someone else was able to do it. I’m sure someone’s 16 year old could learn calculus. But the number of parents who think that their 16 year could also do it is staggering. It’s prevalent in academics, arts and athletics. A false sense of ability that drives people to force themselves upon some level of accomplishment that they have no business even attempting to attain. Like me posting sensible things on this site.
@Fever is that list just TJS or does it include other related surgeries? Many pitchers are now undergoing an internal brace procedure that I believe only recently is being used as an alternative to TJS.
Doesnt it also include certain pitches mixed with delivery that have an impact?
deep – Thank you, I needed that!
Kab – Thank you, great link.
“If you throw faster, it’s more torque on your elbow.”
It always amazes me when some people don’t understand that very basic concept.
Fenway – Agreed, not sure if there’s an all-inclusive list out there. They may need to start grouping TJS with Internal Brace, which is what Giolito had.
TheMan – Thank you, I appreciate it.
I took his comment as humor, benefit of the doubt.
FPG – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
Pitchers worked much faster back in the 60s and 70s with fewer arm injuries. They were also pacing themselves and not putting max effort inot every single pitch.
Something else to think about is whether these pitchers would be risking these injuries if modern medicine hadn’t turned career ending injuries into temporary suspension of the career injuries.
Deep, I’m too lazy to analyze stats but the problem started well before the pitch clock. It has been velo and spin rate for years and the need for a 13 deep staff says it all in my book. Fifty years ago shoulder surgery was the bigger issue as I recall and the staffs then were 10. The answer in my view is to force pitchers to learn their craft by limiting the staff to 11. They would have to adjust and regain control of their pitches. It used to be just a knuckler that they would release and guess where it would end up. Now it’s just about every pitch. Seaver, Gibson, Pedro, etc. could go inside because they could control their pitches. Batters should not be wearing protective equipment outside of a shin guard to protect against foul balls. They would then stop diving into every pitch and pitchers would regain control by not over throwing or needing to put a sweep on the ball. Some pitches look like wiffle ball pitches and such has to do more damage on the arm.
It’s not that we don’t need facts @Theman. It’s that we don’t need Fever Pitch Guy’s facts. He often makes up or bases opinions on stats that are in his own mind like when he pointed out that there was a ton of FA spending this year. And then he named all the top FA signings for proof. Without showing that all those guys were signed by teams with either (A) Their own TV stations or (B) Billion dollar TV deals. Stats are one thing. Plucking certain stats to prove a point that’s only in your mind is another.
Frankly…assuming that another 7 seconds between pitches will miraculously change the TJ issues that plague pitchers today is a bit questionable from a causation view……..more probably, or at least as probable is your opinion of 18 vs 25 second pitch clocks stressing the arm is that modern day pitchers are being schooled from very young ages to throw max veto and spin on everything they throw….without the aid of any “sticky stuff” so by the time they get to the big leagues, their arms are very much more aged and fragile than pitchers in previous generations……much more probable that this fatigues and stresses the arm much more consistently and you could eliminate the pitch clock and probably see the same prevalence of TJ in the game.
Just sayin…….
Clip – That’s a fair point, there are other pitcher injuries besides TJS. My list included just TJS because that’s what Bieber is having, and what was being discussed.
Dorn – Haha!
And I just referenced Roger Dorn in the Story comments!
Clip – Thank you, appreciate the kind words.
I think I have a good tongue-in-cheek compromise.
Looking at my list, the explosion of TJS began in 2010.
Not coincidentally, that was the year Aroldis Chapman burst onto the scene and set the velocity record of 105.8
So let’s just blame it all on Chapman …. deal?
Arm – You are correct, it’s just TJS. Perhaps that list should be updated to include both TJS and internal brace.
Agreed! Get rid of Chapman, get rid of surgeries (sorry Pirates)!
Interesting theory, which seems to be based on the theory that there is something wholesome and pure about sport. I disagree with that premise (and most Disney based premises).
Bottom line (in my mind) is that professional sports are entertainment. The players are entertainers. The owners put capital at risk and expect to make a profit.
The commissioner exists to keep the owners spats between the owners and out of the public, to negotiate with the players, and to provide a public PR facade that a sports league is somehow something more than just entertainment. That fairy tale is why people worship their local franchises and politicians give money to the owners.
Players get paid a lot of money to sacrifice their bodies. Frankly, players are able to demand higher salaries because the injuries create scarcity of players. If having too many pitchers on the IL hurts revenue, the rules will change. Until the , I won’t hold my breath.
@This one People watch 3 HR NFL games where teams play 17 times a year and once a week. Not 162 games and multiple times a week. The 2 are nit really comparable.
Hayzee: I would be interested to see how long Bieber and other pitchers injured after the pitch clock was implemented were taking between pitches before the pitch clock was implemented. If it was a big drop in time between pitches, I think the pitch clock could definitely be a factor in causing pitcher injuries.
Aroldis Chapman was a communist plot to destroy our national pastime, and fracture our national unity.
Now that he has succeeded, he is no longer receiving instructions from Moscow. That’s why he can’t throw strikes any more.
All must be true. I just Googled it and Google agreed.
We’ve got your number Aroldis, ya Commie!
Always – Me too, but it will never happen because a former player will be biased in favor of the union.
A more reasonable ask would be for player reps to be included in voting for the commissioner. As long as only owners are allowed to vote, they will always get someone who will prioritize profits over all else.
Rob – Good post, I agree with much of it. Yes sports is a form of entertainment, going back to at least the ancient Romans. Competition, winners and losers …. the most popular form of entertainment in the world.
You kind of make baseball sound like professional wrestling, but it is not. People worship franchises (not always local) because they share the thrill of victory. Heck, some people here have a habit of saying “we” when referring to a team … that’s where the origin of the word “fan” comes from, “fanatic”.
Let’s see if MLB follows through on the changes I mentioned earlier, only 11-12 pitchers per team and minimum number of days on the big club when they are called up.
deep – Great post, but please substitute Moscow with Havana. Haha!
Uncle – Why is it whenever everyone is having an interesting, information, fun exchange of thoughts, you gotta bring your usual childish crap into the discussion. Keep your personal crap out of here, please. If you don’t like me then put me on mute please.
I put a hell of a lot more time and effort presenting facts than you do, and I often include sources like I did above. Everything I present as fact is easily verifiable.
Take your bitterness at being proven wrong elsewhere.
You’re the one who said something dumb. I just pointed it out. Sorry if you still don’t get it, But it’s more a slight on the public education system.
I doubt the pitch clock has anything to do with it. They still have a good while between pitches
Dude we don’t know that. It’s just a theory
Dr, Andrew’s has stated recently that he’s been giving TJ surgery to youth athletes than he is the pro’s which has flip flopped from what it was 20 years ago.
This is obvious that it’s the obsession with velocity that’s causing more injuries in pitchers
Totally agree, the handling of pitchers is a big part of it but Manfred is also part of it. His rule changes are ruining what made baseball great.
CardAG: Yes, approximately 57% of TJ surgeries are on players under 20, I believe.
But, for those who haven’t had it, I believe the clock {may be} a correlating factor. Here’s another way to put it: if overuse with high velo/torque causes TJ at young ages, then it stands to reason that high velo/torque combined with increasing fatigue could have a greater impact at older ages.
Take Beiber, for example… he’s not a high velo guy. So how would his qualify if not for another contributing factor?
It’s certainly an interesting study, but I wouldn’t rule out anything just yet.
Perhaps it has something to do with the ball??? How much of a spike since Major League Baseball purchased Rawlings, the baseball manufacturer, in 2018??? Perhaps monkeying around with some balls that go far, and some that don’t isn’t such a good idea?
It’s the same thing with drugs. These companies toss out these wonder drugs( Most of which were designed for something else) As being miracle cures for what ails us with absolutely no idea what the long term effects will be, Clipper. Thus making us Human Guinea Pigs. With the latest being Ozempic as a weight loss drug and then people started dropping like flies. The long term effects of these new rules won’t be known for years.
What data are you using to show that these drugs are causing people to “drop like flies”?
Uncle – There are so many different possible factors in pitcher injuries, I agree we can’t just isolate all of them to any one cause.
Some people think Giolito’s injury was the result of a brand new grip that Bailey taught him in ST. Who knows, it’s certainly possible it contributed to his season-ending surgery.
As for drugs, that’s a little bit different. Semaglutide clinical trials began in 2008 and wasn’t FDA approved until 2017. So the FDA does wait many years before approving new drugs.
FPG- The problem with drugs is that most of the drugs are tested for what they were intended to do. Then they find a side effect that solves some other problem( Viagra) for instance. I myself have a spinal disease that causes pain in my extremities and what drug did they prescribe? An anti-depressant. Does it help? Yeah. What’s it doing for my long term health? Nobody will say for fear of being sued. Even though a drug has been tested, Don’t assume they actually know what long term side effects it will have. As for myself it’s slightly better than taking pain pills so far. As I have no desire to become a junkie, legally or not.
@Vary Good call there, defia possibility. There are a lot of factors here that are unique. Very well could be a combination of all of them to varying extents.
I think we’re all ignoring the obvious here. Pitchers pitch so much harder now than they used to. It feels like everyone throws 98 now. I’m sure the uptick in hard throwers is why we have an uptick in injuries
Do you think going with a six man rotation would help reduce injuries?
I believe the Japanese use a six man rotation. But they also work their pitchers harder.
Why don’t we go back and look at footage from when pitchers threw 20 complete games a year and see how long they took between pitches?
We could, but in those days hitters, pitchers, and coaches didn’t have video and sophisticated statistical analysis at their disappear in real time to figure out the tiny advantage they can gain from slight changes in delivery, swing angle, spin rates, etc.
All this information changes the whole incentive structure of how hitters and pitchers approach ABs. The hitters often know what’s coming from film study, which is why you rarely see a starter go through the lineup more than twice, and why there’s so much emphasis on “high-stress” pitches.
The game is completely different strategically than it was 20 years ago, but basic anatomy hasn’t changed that much.
No. The ever increasing need for TJ surgery started long before the pitch clock.
I guarantee you that MLB does not care. No way will they ever admit that they(Manfred) screwed up baseball.
I coach high school. Kids aren’t taught to throw with their shoulder anymore. It’s all the snap of the elbow, which can create more velocity but cap the distance you can throw a ball. Everybody’s got more of a football motion, which is needed for throwing spirals. It doesn’t apply to baseball, though.
Pitchers have been getting Tommy John surgeries on an assembly line since they all
Started throwing 100mph every pitch. The numbers haven’t changed with the pitch clock.
This one has got to hurt. Free agency year. Ugh.
Calling all nurses Calling all nurses Room 12 has a Bieber fever
Why didnt they sell high and trade him after his amazing 2022 season? This organization is so badly run. They either trade players who flourish elsewhere or do limited moves year and year holding.
Since the start of the 2013 season, Cleveland has the 4th best winning percentage in MLB, and they did that on a small market budget. They are far from badly operated.
small sample size, but 6-2 thus far…without significant improvements in offseason. Don’t know if they will stay hot, but indeed–not a badly run org at all.
Choked to the Chubbies
They would have if they had had a crystal ball
With hindsight being what it is, they should have. But it’s pretty absurd to say they should have moved him at the time.
At the time, they were coming off a playoff series win and figured they could go further since they had a young team that (in theory) was only getting better. They also didn’t have quite the same pitching depth that they’ve been accustomed to having, and even though Williams/Bibee/Allen came up and were great, McKenzie was injured most of the year and there wasn’t anyone else behind them.
Essentially, you’re saying that a team with serious intentions on contending with limited pitching depth (by their standards) should have traded their best starter. This team gets criticized for not moving talent and they get criticized for moving talent too soon; you can’t have it both ways.
They are far from badly run. They draft well, compete every year, and trades normally work out in their favor.
@aoe3
If he stayed healthy and continued to pitch well, it would have been one of the smartest moves to not trade him. Just curious, back in ’22, were you posting that he should be traded?
How does this keep happening?
Front offices don’t have metrics for pitchability and finesse, so they don’t have any incentive to promote it. They CAN however, track velo and x/y/z break. Pair those two together with what breaking pitches do to pitchers bodies and we have what we have.
First organization to legitimately value durability and arm health over velo and spin rate will usher in the biggest revolution since Moneyball.
When an All Star Pitchers velocity starts dropping and then they try to trade him it doesn’t take a Rocket Scientist to figure out something bad is going on. 1+1 doesn’t equal 3.
Oh they do and they have metrics and strategies as well. Although pitching injuries can hit anywhere, the better run teams have significantly fewer of them.
Topics,
Or they might have a huge number of healthy pitchers with ERAs around 5.00 because hitters can crush pitches without big velocity and spin.
All these injuries are an unfortunate side effect of the continuing evolution of the game.
I hope I’m wrong and teams do crack the code to combine performance and health, but I don’t see it happening any time soon.
I think the Cardinals may already be attempting that durability revolution.
Plus, there will still be injuries because they are unavoidable to an extent. So even if there might be a few less injuries in the long run, I can’t see any team taking on the risk of diminished performance based on a partial leap of faith. The numbers would have to be pretty stark for a team to take that chance.
Also, a lot of these guys have grown up putting a ton of stress on their arms and suddenly dialing back the velocity isn’t going to change that reality. Not to mention the fact many would need to relearn how to pitch absent said gas. It’s not the quickest nor easiest transition.
all the experts on mlbtr will tell you…
Wow that’s a shame.
Somebody needs to do the Randy Johnson chalk outline but on the mound, this is crazy.
For anyone not in the know-
youtube.com/shorts/K-kxBQ8YxLI?si=TcQVkHxjDTWg_I0i
Hate to see another one get Tommy John
Damn. Wishing him a speedy recovery. What gives!
The only correlation to the significant increase in TJS of late has been the pitch clock. Nothing else has change in the last few years.
The problem, imho, was they tested the pitch clock in the minors system. While on its face it is seemingly a good testing ground, you are testing it on much younger baseball players with much less mileage on their arms. When doing health studies and the impact of torque and rotation in the human body, age certainly matters.
Not true. Pitchers add new pitches all the time, and broadcasters are already calling 2024 “the year of the sweeper.”
Clipper-I give you the sweeper. The fact that pitchers can’t use aids to help them grip the baseball anymore. The pitch clock. The humidor. Platelet injections. I’m sure I missed some.
Uncle Mike: I understand your points. But, I said correlation, not causation. If I didn’t clarify what I meant, it is that the clock is one factor. How? Well, imho, throwing high-torque, high-velo pitches is bad enough. But, to do that under conditions which don’t allow for sufficient recovery leads to poor form and the same stress under worse anatomical conditions – thus, the correlation between the clock and injuries.
I don’t dispute I could be wrong, and we won’t really know for sure for a while. But it seems to me that any time you keep high stress events on increasingly fatigued bodies, it’s clearly setting conditions for injuries. Therefore, I think it’s a mistake to dismiss it outright.
There has not been a significant increase of TJ of late. The recent peak was 2018, much higher than this year and last.
I wasn’t disputing your point, Just saying that pointing to one thing and one thing only is academic. It would take a set of variables and testing to see what really is happening and the disposable thing in this equation is players. The same way human life is disposable to drug companies Pitchers are disposable to teams. Every team has a top 30 list with a lot of P’s on it. Next.
True and that makes sense. My apologies for misunderstanding that part of it. I don’t even know if I’m right…. Lol.
I’m quite sure you’re right. Just to what degree is what’s debatable ant testable. Although it won’t ever be done first. The test is right now and with no apparent fear what it does to players is the problem.
Appreciate your thoughtful (and always humble) commentary YC. Interesting points.
Where is this info? The spreadsheet I saw seemed to imply a decent uptick starting last season.
The UCL.
Damn. He was looking really sharp through his first 2 starts. No earned runs, 20/1-K/BB
People can’t be throwing this hard pitch after pitch. Velocity has increased tons and with it so many high quality pitchers are out in the middle of their prime more than before. I know the throwing motion is unnatural and all, but it has been all along and it wasn’t always like this to the same extent. Something needs to change, because people barely have a chance to see star pitchers pitch anymore and that’s a huge problem for MLB. How do you build star power like MLB always wants to do if your stars aren’t playing because they are in Dr. James Andrews’ office more than on the mound? Anyway, rant over.
Exactly.Used to be high 80-low 90s was normal.Now mid to high 90 is considered normal.Human arm is not constructed that way
Bring back the knuckler! It must be even harder to hit now if other pitchers are throwing breaking balls in the 90’s
I actually would guess it’s more spin rates than velocity, but doesn’t matter. Same argument applies. Stop trying to max out pitch after pitch. The Drivelines and other spin-and-velocity factories need to be relegated to the garbage can of history. Teach location and deception instead of velocity and (spin-based) movement.
The issue is someone will always be looking to gain that extra edge. There will always be AAA/AAAA pitchers who will take on that extra injury risk to get a big league check. Everyone is taking on the extra risk of throwing high velo/spin to stay competitive because if you don’t you end up falling behind.
Spencer Strider might be the next victim
Wow
He incorporated a curveball to his repertoire this year. That can put a lot of strain on ones elbow and forarm. Maybe it wasnt a good idea.
He’s thrown a curveball his whole career, and in a small sample size this year he threw it less than half as often as he had in any other year since he’s been in the majors.
Yeah I was gonna say, even if that weren’t true he’s certainly been throwing a curve ball since he was in Little League. That’s the first breaking ball all young pitchers are taught, and it’s the easiest on the arm. It’s not that, and it’s not the pitch clock. It’s just the accumulated stress on his elbow.
I meant to reply about Spencer Strider and his new curveball for 2024
Yeah he’s been known for his curveball pretty much from the time he was drafted, but he’s phased it out to the point where he was only throwing it 6.6% of the time this year.
Maybe he just didn’t fully recover from the elbow problems he had last year, but he had a fully normal offseason so who knows. It’s tough to pinpoint exactly what causes these injuries, but I’d think it has little or nothing to do with his curve.
@Michael
fangraphs.com/players/spencer-strider/27498/stats#…
Spencer had never thrown a curve in a game until this season.
Yeah I was talking about Bieber. The original comment was about Strider which has since been clarified, but this is an article about Bieber so I’m not talking about Strider.
@Michael My bad there was mention of both.
Bieber was quite a surprise. He had 2 great outings and then this news seemingly out of nowhere. Horrible timing for him to with next year being first time to hit free agency. I’m sure he ll still get a few decent longer offers maybe a bit lower AAVs. A lot of teams probably would be more than willing to offer to offer higher AAVs on a 2 or 3 yr with opt out after 2 or opt out with IP total after next season.
Whatever he gets it ll be interesting to see.
All good, the Strider mention threw me off so I didn’t even think it was who was being discussed lol
I’d imagine Bieber gets a three year deal for probably $20-25 million (the first year being maybe $2-5 million of that) to rehab, but I’d be surprised if the Guardians were the team to offer it. Maybe a three year deal with an opt out after the second year, like you suggested.
I’d imagine Bieber gets a *two year deal for $20-25 million, not three unless there’s an opt out
Next Justin Bieber will need TJ
Geez that’s unfortunate. This is a bad time to be getting it too. This was definitely a risk with him but he was looking good to start the year.
Really sucks for Shane and CLE.
Aside from the bad news, this has big implications on the AL Central.
The Royals now have a fighting chance to take this division and that’s exciting. Will be a fun battle to watch this season.
Umm, that is wishful thinking. KC has no chance. Gavin Williams will take Bieber’s spot in Cleveland’s rotation, so there will be no drop off.
But Gavin is out right now because of his elbow, so you can’t assume he’s going to step right in and stay healthy..
True, but KC lacks so much to be a contender that they’re at least 2 years away. They can’t continue to miss on drafting pitchers.
no, they don’t KC lawyer
Sigh.
They’re dropping like flies again. Pitch Clock for Sure. I’d be curious what the state will show injury wise pre clock and post on about five seasons total of usage. MLB will never tell us anyway.
Since injuries must be reported, it will be easy to get data on TJS and the pitch clock.
With the increase of major arm injuries in recent years before the pitch clock, I doubt that it’s been having much of an effect. It’s likely more on the emphasis on velocity over actual pitching.
Tempo and time limit between pitches now, instead of more intermittent rest I would think absolutely plays a roll in arm health. Add in velocity of course and you have a perfect storm.
There is no statistical relationship between institution of the pitch clock and pitcher injuries. The peak for TJ surgeries was years before the clock (in 2018).
If you care to learn something, look up the definition of “recency bias”. There is actually no particular increase in TJ surgeries this year.
This is my favorite comment. Until the next one.
The year isn’t over it’s just starting
There are more injuries than Tommy John dude. If You care to use you mind.
The UCL injuries I doubt are linked to the pitch clock. Ligaments when over used and pushed which they call loading over exerts and then typically takes 48 HRs to recover. Poor mechanics also can be a contribing factor as exertion changes. Inconsistent delivery and Poor mechanics definitely have a higher likelihood when one is rushed.
Now muscle injuries on the other hand very well could occur due to rushing.
Also all the younger guys emerging right now missed an entire year of organized instruction and training with their franchises in 2020, which is absolutely unprecedented in MLB.
On top of everything mentioned above there is an ever growing push for higher velocity. And these young guys coming into league with over taxed arms. The mid 2000’s youth baseball much like every other sport saw an explosion of travel teams and off season academies, coaches, instructors, etc. Prior to that travel teams or what in Michigan we called Federation League or Fed was far the best kids while the others continued to play in rec leagues. Now there is seemingly a travel team of some sort out there for every kid whose parents are willing to pay. Unfortunately many realized there was alot of money to be made and unfortunately they are doing so by over working these kids physically.
I guess many justify it as helping and coaching these kids and they re not being pushed physically as tho it’s child labor. But what they are doing is pushing various joints, tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc to a point that puts them in harms way. Violent motions such as pitching are unnatural to all humans, but even more harmful to young developing bodies.
Poor Indians fans.
What could be worse than being called the Guardians?
The Indians.
Ugh! This sucks. Wonder how many injuries it takes before someone takes a chance on Bauer?
Depends on how concerned the team is about a neck injury.
Or brings Ron Darling out of retirement
Beiber went to Driveline baseball this offseason and picked up several mph on his velocity. Looked great and was having a resurgence. Now TJ surgery.
We can ask “why does this keep happening?” all we want but the answer seems pretty clear. Human arms aren’t made to throw as hard as they are throwing in the current game. But pitchers aren’t going to stop looking for velocity increases because that’s largely how they’re having success. But also, hitters today are used to seeing this kind of velocity so it’s not as if pitchers are going to just decide to throw slower and be hit around.
I think the real answer is that this is the inevitable and immovable new normal of the MLB
You could put a velocity limit on pitches, and then move back the walls at stadiums. I don’t know of anything else that would work.
How the heck would they enforce a velocity limit?
You can get hitters out with something other than velocity and spin. Deception works. Location works. And to be honest, higher scoring games are more exciting anyway. We’re headed toward a different sort of game where a 4.00 ERA is all-star worthy and 8-6 games are the norm, and pitchers stay healthy far more frequently.
You have to be able to execute on a consistent basis but Tom Seaver taught location, changing speeds, movement as well as velocity gets hitters out. Have a good defense behind you and let them do the rest.
This keeps happening because both the teams and the players have done a cost benefit analysis. They concluded the payoff is worth the injuries. Fans are more worried about this than the players.
Exactly
I hope he survives the surgery.
Lol
Get rid of the the pitch clock and bring back the sticky stuff
I’m in favor of a pitch clock and sticky stuff. Perhaps raise the time on the pitch clock, though.
Yikes, but I guess that officially confirms that the Red Sox will be signing him in the offseason afterall!
It’s all the science working to increase velocity and spin rates. The UCL is not designed to support the increased stress and torsion. Focused strength training, PED’s, and finding what breaking balls work with pitchers natural pronation and supination. We get great velocity and movement while sacrificing longer term arm health.
It is not the pitch clock. Guys like Bob Gibson threw hard and quickly back in the day.
@Chad and @jersey john
I tend to agree with you two.
There is certainly no evidence it’s the pitch clock unless you consider opinions with no real facts on chat boards. Emphasis on velo and spin rate make a lot more sense.
I think the ‘evidence’is piling up but your 2nd and 3rd reason is also a part of the cause and solution.
This guy who posts here, I think his name is Canuckleball, has been producing facts connecting these injuries to the pitch clock.
Also, not all pitchers work(ed) quickly and then there’s a guy like Greinke (Greg Maddox comes to mind too) who varied time in between pitches as a strategy. So it seems adjusting to this rule would have varied from pitcher to pitcher with a guy like Gibson transitioning easily.
Bruh, this is ridiculous.
It’s just one after another.
Recency bias. This is just the time of year when this stuff happens. It’s been a normal year for TJ surgeries, far short of the peak in the late teens.
More reason why pitchers in particular need to lock in extension contracts early.
It’s Driveline (and their ilk). That’s the problem. The more popular they’ve become, the more TJ surgeries have been occurring. Their science — which is legit — encourages max effort (velo, torque, spin), which leads to max stress.
Combine that with Perfect Game tournaments occurring year round, and you have kids (who are being told velo is the key to a D1 scholarship/the majors) throwing max effort year round. Sport specialization is a major issue in all youth sports.
As a start, MLB could work with Little League/Perfect Game to outlaw breaking balls before, say, age 15. Because telling pitchers to throw slower at the big league level isn’t realistic, although, like the stolen base and batting average, the pendulum could swing back to a greater emphasis on command and less so on max velo.
Breaking balls are not correlated with arm injuries per se. What is correlated with injuries is velocity and spin rates. So throw all the curve balls you want (curves are actually quite easy on elbows) and all the sliders, but throw them more slowly and don’t try and max out spin.
Dr. James Andrews:
“My rule of thumb is, don’t throw the curveball until you can shave, until your bone structure has matured and you have the neuromuscular control to be able to throw the pitch properly.”
nj.com/little-league-world-series/2014/08/trying_t…
Sure, let’s try to enforce a ban on breaking balls in little leagues throughout America. Sounds doable.
Ah, it’s all because of that evil known as Driveline. Driveline is the devil, I tell ya!
ImmaculateGrid needs to put in a TJS category.
RIP spin rate era
Eventually every mlb pitcher will be required to get Tommy John and a measles shot before they are allowed to play
Where’s the Tommy John vaccine when we need it most?
Dr Fauci says it’s on its way
It’s those billionaire owners at it again!
I can see a point in the future where the ball is manipulated to increase movement and decline velocity so it’s easier to be crafty than quick.
No pitch clock excuse. They were getting TJ before the new rules. It’s plain and simple. Pitchers arms are not as strong due to the 90s pitch to 100 pitch limit. Randy Pedro nolan Verlander would throw 135 pitchers CG and no issues.
The plural of anecdote is not data. Walter Johnson threw 100 probably. There are always freaks.
I wonder what would happen if a mid-season division leader said, OK, we’ll drop the max-effort-effort-all-the-time approach for a couple months, settle for 96 wins instead of 99, with the goal of getting to the playoffs with the whole staff intact. Is max effort something that can be ramped up and down at will, or is it baked into the cake by the time a pitcher reaches the bigs?
It’s too late the teams have no control. Pitchers get paid for analytic driven performance not for being durable. Until baseball execs start rewarding the pitchers who take the ball consistently nothing will chance. Money talks. In America that’s about all that talks.
I think there are pitching coaches out there that have some new ideas to preserve the long term health of their pitching staff (which may give them an advantage); they just have to be given an opportunity and support of the owner and NOT go all in on analytical trends.
Independent thought vs a Herd mentality can provide better results
It’s not just America. Money talks everywhere.
It would be easier to sprinkle in minor leaguers and give everyone a chance to rest. The trick is knowing when a pitcher needs that break. Players don’t want to admit that they need a break and often do themselves in. Then it’s too late.
Of all the opinions this one makes some sense. Perhaps the 6-man rotation has mérito.
The Dodgers do this a lot, with blatantly fraudulent use of the DL (I say this approvingly, as a fan). 13-pitcher roster max limits the ability the use bullpen games or skip starts unless you cheat (as long as the plan is to always use 4-6 relievers a game, which is another issue).
That front office ended up getting nothing for him. Brutal.
I thought he be flipped right after the 11 K performance on Opening Day.
Cleveland really pooped the bed big time on how they handled him.
About the worst time for this to happen. He’s likely going to miss most if not all of next season recovering too.
He sure cost himself. He would have been moved at the deadline to a contender with a shot at a World Series and he screwed himself on his next contract.
He was looking good in his first two starts.
My fantasy team is in shambles.
I’m LMAO right now. Classic Cleveland move. They didn’t trade him and now his value is ZERO. Good game cle good game
So..you think they should have predicted this injury?
Predicted no but come on this team isn’t going deep in the playoffs they should have traded him at peak value INCASE something like this happens. Now they get nothing, he walks in free agency and they set the team back a few years. So sick of being a Cleveland fan. If they are gonna be cheap – fine then trade him like they did lindor and everyone before him that was about to get paid and at least get something.
Also for what it’s worth people were saying last year that the sign of his velocity going down is a sign that something was going to happen that he wasn’t himself and people were predicting this
If you can believe the rumors CLE tried to trade him this off-season. In retrospect you can 2nd guess their judgement, they were asking too much in return apparently
Of course they were asking too much for him, he is a better pitcher than Dylan Cease is and the pathetic White Sox were asking too much for him. Of course by no means am I saying it is the only reason why or even the main reason why, but I mean it.
The prior elbow issues were there, but we forgot about that because the new results looked great after he visited Driveline. Teams must have been more on the ball about this because no one traded for him.
The current landscape of injured pitchers is characterized by the risk of maximum effort chasing for big-dollar contracts. It seems like the league needs to figure this out because there are fewer and fewer pitchers who are frontliners and healthy.
Also, blame the players for being so greedy; they will risk their longevity for sake of getting a big contract.
All I know for sure is that there has been an increase in TJ surgeries that shows a very strong correlation with the number of comments on the MLBTR stories about TJ surgeries.
Oh crap, I just took out another pitcher. My bad.
There has not been an increase in TJ surgeries, unless you mean since like 2012. The peak was six years ago.
With all the TJ surgeries, I’d imagine the price is skyrocketing due to supply-demand.
Probably best not to attend the Walmart or Dollar Store TJS service.
For the sake of the overall game and of course for the individual team and player all these pitchers losing 1.5 years to recover is discouraging.
In the long run it will cost the player $, takes away the teams ability to compete. GMs might need to try having like 10 SPs and maybe using openers and trying 6 man rotation. IMHO I believe the obsession with pitch clock and max spin rates has a lot to do with the increase but there are other reasons
Trying to convince some pitchers to throw underhand or 3/4/sidearm may be a way to delay TJ surgery even if inevitable. Not all players can throw this way or want to attempt.
Anybody want to work on a knuckleball?
Tough break for the Guardians.
Sucks all the way around. For him, the team, and baseball overall.
Hope he’s back to being himself after he recovers.
The link isn’t pitchclock or max velo. We need to start looking at the pharmaceutical and insurance industries. Together they hold more power and influence than MLB. Robert M. Califf was nominated by you know who in 2022 to be the commissioner of the FDA. The left continues to pull the puppet strings and With Uncle Joes ties to Nippon Steel
A little early in the day to be raving drunk
More like B-living under a rock if you think these “injuries” are legitimate and not an orchestrated plan. Guess you think that diabetes and heart disease were accidental too. Follow the money train buddy. I can’t do it for you
Hahahaha. Wow.
Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you. LoL
Jimmy, check all the labels on your cereal – I think they snuck something in there. Do it now!
Have you looked at a box of cereal? Enough said.
A fine example of frontier gibberish.
If you cannot recognize which side benefits by chronic illness and injury, we’re done here. Best of luck to you inkstain.
Interesting article about a pitcher having two Tommy John surgeries and thoracic outlet syndrome before retiring from baseball.
theathletic.com/4170284/2023/02/09/angels-sam-full…
“But that year was something of a mirage. He suspects the surgeries — the first performed by the renowned Dr. James Andrews — were not done incorrectly. He believes his problems are more anatomical and thus unavoidable.”
My idea is that we are asking athletes to perform something that their bodies are incapable of doing for an extended period of time. Are there pitchers who can throw at high velocity and never get hurt? Of course there are, but many more are being asked to do it as well.
Wow this came out of nowhere
I’ve been saying it over and over
And nobody wants to listen
There’s an epidemic in baseball for pitchers
But nope nothings wrong, everythings fine. Ya’ll are living in friggin lala land
No one wants to listen to Johnny Utah????? What kind of a world are we living in?
Unfortunate to say the least. A lot of reasons for the high rate of TJ surgery we have seen for the last couple of decades now. Throwing harder and harder puts a huge stress on the elbow. I always laugh when people think MLB pitchers today are babied. They point out how pitchers of days gone by threw more pitches and innings. True, but they didn’t throw this hard. They paced themselves because they had to. They also by and large didn’t pitch nearly year round like many of the current MLB pitchers did when they were young. Pitchers of yesterday were often 3 sport athletes so they got time away from baseball on a regular basis. Most pitchers today gave up other sports at a very young age to focus on baseball. Little League, travel ball, off season training. They rarely got any time off. Now a lot of young kids know this and are taking time off, especially from pitching. But it will probably take another 20 years to know if that is going to help.
A lot of teams were lucky not to trade for Bieber. I hope his TJ goes smoothly and that he is back to being an ace again in 2025.
Smart organizations develop depth for the rotation. You have to assume you will have to replace at least 3 arms in your rotation throughout the season. Sometimes even more. That’s why the bullpen is huge, has been huge over past 3 decades, and will continue to be so. Long term contracts for starting pitchers are crazy. Yamamoto contract with the Dodgers will be very interesting to gauge. I’m hoping be of a few Yankee fans that is happy he didn’t sign with the Yankees at that term. When the Yankees were winning consistently they had a very balanced strong rotation and veteran arms that understood there body and how to finesse there way through lineups especially if they didn’t have there good stuff. Now pitchers overthrow until they are removed. Spin rate is what exit velocity and upper cut swing syndrome has morphed into. I rather have 4 veteran arms that don’t throw hard and can induce weak ground ball contact and one young gun slinger than a rotation of youngish hard throwing arms. Too volatile.
Nice of him to wait until AFTER he shuts down my Mariners to go under the knife.
It seems like the baseball world knew this was coming. Bieber trade value was very low.
When you build pitchers to inning limits, emphasis velocity and allow hitters to do almost anything they want to gain an edge, this will continue and never change.
Pitch clock? Horse manure. Pitchers pitched must quicker for decades and didn’t break down like this. They pitched complete games. Look elsewhere for the reasons. Maybe letting stat geeks run baseball teams has some relevance.
Like “Horse manure” analysis.
Damn ! He was talked about as possible trade acquisition for alota teams this off-season. What a bummer. Season just started n there’s already ton of Ps down.
This is soooooooo Cleveland.
Calling the whole city, team, and fan debase a dumpster fire is unflattering to
Dumpsters.
Bring back the spitball. Don’t remember guys needing TJS before they banned it.
The league. Pitch to contact. Pitch 9 innings.
Hi I’m Nolan Ryan I like the strikeout and the 100 mph Pitch.
The league. We need all pitchers throwing 98+, and 25% SO%.
5 innings and TJ surgery is what we get.
This is just horrible news! I’m not even a Cleveland fan but was so happy to see Bieber looking like his cy young self through two starts. A real shame.
And there it is. To all you Reds fans that were screaming to trade away half the farm for him.. how ya feelin now??!
Advances in pitch tracking have humans working closer to the edge of their anatomical limits in regards to torque. Individuals are choosing to do engage in that.
Owners aren’t introducing anything that increases the chance of injury. Especially pitchers. Paying people to not pitch is their worst nightmare. If the data suggested a pitch clock is causing injuries, it would be gone in a heartbeat.
So glad the Braves didn’t trade for him like many wanted. That said, hate this for him and his team.
I was suspicious of this. Beiber’s K9 rate has gone from 14.2 to 12.6 to 8.9 to 7.5. Drops like that are very unusual and often followed by injuries.
You might as well get TJ when you’re drafted and get it over with. 3 aces go down in the same day is sad for the game!
You might as well get TJ when you’re drafted and get it over with.
=======================
Yup, thought that Boras blew it with Rocker when the Mets drafted him. Had he gotten the TJS back then, he’d have been pitching the full season in 23, on the Mets in 24, and a FA by 30/31 yo.
He lost two key years holding out for pocket change.
I know a fairly recent Cy Young winner they can sign for the league minimum…
Wonder what mlb Ps think bout influx of injuries to Ps. They should have an inkling to what it is causing em. They’re the ones doing it. Would be interesting to see there percentages of blame to what problem is : max effort, Ps being coddled, offspeed stuff, too many fastballs, pitch clock, weighted ball throwing programs, etc. A survey of the Ps who are hurt now ?
With the increase now in homeruns and stolen bases. Will the majors start looking like a Norfolk game ever night?
Well, so much for the Guardians’ chances to win a very weak AL Central Division this year. The Twins are definitely the favorites right now, but I could see either the Tigers or the Royals beating them out if enough things go right for either of them. We certainly won’t see any Wild Card teams from the AL Central, though.
Cleveland 2-0 vs, the Twins so far this season.
Has this pitch clock helped bring the younger crowd to the game? No its just us, the same as it always has been. Stop hurting the players trying to bring in 10 kids who could care less. If a kid likes baseball he will find it and an extra 15 min will not matter. Save the players.. please
The pitch clock is not helping. Feel bad for Cleveland fans here. I will get Ohtani (my bookie) to place a bet that will not slow down until adjustments are made to the rules.
Alot of this has happened since pitch clock & the push by MLB to make sure pitchers aren’t using any substances on the ball. Let the pitchers use whatever they want & let the batters juice, definitely made baseball a lot more fun to watch
Dr Andrew’s recent quotes. Talks about kids throwing into the 90’s way to early in high school basically speeding up damage to your arm before the ligament is fully developed.
“These kids are throwing 90 mph their junior year of high school”, he says. “The ligament itself can’t withstand that kind of force. We’ve learned in our research lab that baseball is a development sport. The Tommy John ligament matures at about age 26. In high school, the red line where the forces go beyond the tensile properties of the ligament is about 80 mph”.
Who is Justice Beaver?