One of the unfortunately defining storylines of Spring Training and the first couple weeks of the regular season has been the prevalence of significant injuries to key pitchers. While that is a concern every year — particularly early in the schedule as players build their arms back up — the number of big names suffering arm injuries led the league and Players Association to trade barbs over the weekend.
On Saturday, the players union put out a brief statement (on X) that implied the pitch clock was a key contributing factor:
“Despite unanimous player opposition and significant concerns regarding health and safety, the commissioner’s office reduced the length of the pitch clock last December, just one season removed from imposing the most significant rule change in decades,” MLBPA executive director Tony Clark said. “Since then, our concerns about the health impacts of reduced recovery time have only intensified. The league’s unwillingness thus far to acknowledge or study the effects of these profound changes is an unprecedented threat to our game and its most valuable asset — the players.”
This is the second season in which the pitch clock has been in use at the major league level. In 2023, pitchers had 15 seconds between pitches when no runner was on base and 20 seconds to begin their delivery with runners aboard. Over the winter, the competition committee passed a rule change cutting the latter time from 20 to 18 seconds. That measure was approved by the six league representatives on the rule committee; all four players on the panel voted against it. The MLBPA released a statement at the time calling the changes “unnecessary” and saying the 2024 season “should be used to gather additional data and fully examine the health, safety and injury impacts of reduced recovery time.”
Unsurprisingly, MLB quickly fired back after Clark’s latest protestation. The league argued that there has been no empirical backing pointing to the clock as a contributing factor to pitcher injuries. MLB instead suggested the main issue is the increased stress which pitchers are putting on their arms to improve the quality of their arsenals.
“(The MLBPA’s) statement ignores the empirical evidence and much more significant long-term trend, over multiple decades, of velocity and spin increases that are highly correlated with arm injuries,” the league said in a statement of its own. “Nobody wants to see pitchers get hurt in this game, which is why MLB is currently undergoing a significant comprehensive research study into the causes of this long-term increase, interviewing prominent medical experts across baseball which to date has been consistent with an independent analysis by Johns Hopkins University that found no evidence to support that the introduction of the pitch clock has increased injuries.
In fact, JHU found no evidence that pitchers who worked quickly in 2023 were more likely to sustain an injury than those who worked less quickly on average. JHU also found no evidence that pitchers who sped up their pace were more likely to sustain an injury than those who did not.”
Concerns about pitcher health are an annual event, although there hasn’t been much consensus about which factors are more responsible than others. Last month, noted orthopedic surgeon Dr. Keith Meister told Ken Rosenthal and Eno Sarris of the Athletic that he considered the sweeping breaking ball and power changeup to be problems, pointing to the tighter grip that pitchers use on those offerings. A few players and other injury experts pushed back against Meister’s hypothesis, arguing that increased effort to maximize velocity (on both the fastball and breaking stuff) was the more notable driver.
Whatever the case, there’s no doubt that pitcher injuries have been a major story in recent weeks. Gerrit Cole (elbow inflammation), Lucas Giolito (internal brace surgery), Eduardo Rodriguez (lat strain), Anthony DeSclafani (flexor tendon surgery) and Trevor Stephan (Tommy John surgery) were among the pitchers to suffer notable injuries during Spring Training. Giolito, DeSclafani and Stephan underwent season-ending surgery before Opening Day.
Since the season began, Eury Pérez, Shane Bieber and Jonathan Loáisiga have all been lost for the year due to elbow ligament repairs of their own. Things are still up in the air for Braves ace Spencer Strider, who landed on the injured list over the weekend after imaging revealed UCL damage in his elbow.
It’s not an issue for which there are simple solutions. Justin Verlander, who has been one of the preeminent workhorses of his generation but lost the 2021 season to a Tommy John procedure, discussed the issue over the weekend. Verlander, on a minor league rehab stint to build up after a seemingly minor bout of shoulder soreness, pointed to a confluence of factors (relayed by Ari Alexander of KPRC 2).
While he noted “it would be easiest to … blame the pitch clock,” the three-time Cy Young winner spoke about pitchers’ desire to maximize their swing-and-miss acumen even if it comes with a higher chance of injury. Verlander pointed to the increase in home runs over the past few seasons and teams’ heavier reliance on their bullpens — which he acknowledged is supported by data indicating that relievers tend to be more effective than a starter navigating a lineup for the third or fourth time — as reasons for pitchers to avoid pitching to contact. Those interested in the subject should check out the veteran righty’s thoughtful response in full.
Team decision-makers also need to wrestle with the balance between protecting their most talented pitchers without sapping their effectiveness. That’s an inexact science for medical and coaching staffs. Mariners manager Scott Servais pointed to the early-season spate of injuries as a factor in pulling young righty Bryce Miller at 78 pitches after seven scoreless innings in a win over the Brewers on Saturday (link via Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times).
Servais cited a desire to minimize the amount of potentially high-stress innings that Miller faces early in the season as one of a number of variables in making what seemed to be an atypically quick call to the bullpen. That’s just one example, of course, but it’s illustrative of the kind of concerns which front offices and coaching staffs face as they try to keep their best pitchers healthy.
Neither side knows the answer to the question.
Lord – Seems like the MLBPA is just posturing because they don’t like the pitch clock being shortened already. Which I agree, at the very least they made the change too soon.
Agreed Fever. Think MLB should just set it at 30, then forget about it. That way stops the bucholz types who would go 45s sometimes.
My thoughts on injuries lies with umpires granting obvious too late TO’s to hitters tho.
Trying to get umpires to follow any correct rules might be a bridge too far.
Good thoughts……only would add from an umpiring view that time is not automatically granted when requested by a batter according to the rules and if umpires (especially the older veterans) are granting TO’s once the pitcher starts his motion, they shouldn’t automatically grant it to the batter and the batter shouldn’t automatically assume they will get it………if in fact this is adding to pitching injuries.
These games are a bit too short now in my opinion, I was at the Giants/Padres game on Saturday night and it was 2hrs 5mins long I felt like I didn’t get my moneys worth I lost an inning just running back to grab a beer.
Then the change wasn’t for you. Me? I loved 3.5 hour games. They changed it for the ADHD generation Z people who will binge 25 episodes of Friends, but complain a 3 hour ballgame is too long.
superunclea, etc al: Clark is right. Manfred made all these idiotic changes to put his mark on the game. All he did was ruin it, a long with pitcher’s arms. I don’t understand manfred’s obsession with speeding up the game. Is it, as you rightfully said, because the owners want to sell the game to kids who are so self-absorbed that they can’t function without an Xbox or game boy strapped to their hands. I liked watching a 3-4 hour game. You used to be able to relax and just take in a game. Now games that start at 7pm are on the fourth inning after 20 minutes. Speeding up the game is ruining it, not just for those who enjoyed a longer game but also for the injuries players. It’s interesting that the four players who voted on the issue of even more time restrictions voted against it but with the owners having the majority, it was a kangaroo court. I hope Clark and the MLBPAbtake MLB to court to restore the game to the way it was. always supposed to be. Screw the younger generation. If they don’t like BB in normal time, let them go back to their video games.
Yes and that generation is the future and you’re not. Every business this side of mobility scooter manufacturers and Cadillac are interested in whether young people like their products.
I’m with ya Avenger. It’s like I’m no longer watching MLB, but watching and listening to MLSB (Major League Speed Baseball). And, I’m not interested.
To me, the integrity of the game has been compromised to the point where the powers that be are more interested in making a buck. Stop destructing the product and start celebrating it.
There is no evidence the pitch clock and injuries are related.
Pitchers have been blowing out their elbows or getting injured at a higher rate for years now. The elbow just isn’t built to do these things to it.
I see this as just another excuse for the players union to hear themselves talk.
Well said bigjon. Stress on the arm has been going up for years, just as injuries have.
@bigjonliljon
We have pitchers now who have been throwing 90+ since they were 14 or 15 years old playing baseball year round and now in the majors try to throw 98 mph fastballs, 92 mph sliders, maximize spin rates, throw top effort every pitch, etc and they want to blame the pitch clock. It would be like a guy driving 120 mph and getting into a car accident and blaming the fact he didn’t use his horn fast enough.
Which is exactly why they need more research. JHU couldn’t find data because everyone had sped up their delivery for the pitch clock in 2023 and its undeniable that more pitchers went on the IL in 2023 and that more are on the IL today then ever before to start a season. The JHU study ONLY looked at the 2023 season and didn’t compare it to previous seasons.
Spin rate and velocity have not changed substantially in the last 2 seasons. What has changed is the introduction of the pitch clock.
MLB’s entire statement is garbage.
This deserved real study before making changes. Once again MLB failed its players.
Something I read years ago said that MLB will make its money regardless of what players are on the field, but players that get injured will make less putting more money in the owners pockets. Really pessimistic to think that way, but its looking more and more like that Maciavellian thought might be the owners real motivation.
Pads – “It’s undeniable that more pitchers went on the IL in 2023”.
STOP WITH THE DAMN LIES!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baseball_players_who…
This list includes TJS only, but it’s the best proof I’ve found that MLB pitchers were injured LESS OFTEN last year, not more often.
2023 – 7
2022 – 8
2021 – 16
2020 – 15 (in a 60-game season!!)
2019 – 7
2018 – 27
2017 – 20
2016 – 21
Wiki? Seriously? I guess there is a reason you got this so completely wrong. You don’t have the facts.
Here is a database with all the TJ surgeries with the names and dates of the surgery – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
25 pitchers had TJ surgery in 2023.
2 position players also had the surgery.
That doesn’t include the 8 players that had UCL internal brace surgery or the 2 that had UCL PRP injections.
25 TJ surgeries, not 7.
A total of 35 UCL procedures in 2023.
In 2018 there were 23 and no UCL brace procedures.
There have been 10 already this year and its April. Give it a count in that database. Betting its a new record. .
TJ is not the ONLY arm related injury that puts players on the IL, but its obvious that the numbers of TJ and other UCL injuries are going up. .
We started 2024 with 128 pitchers on the IL. In 2023 we started the season with 96. BOTH were records. 2024 is a 25
% increase over 2023. Before that the previous record was 84 in 2020.
In 2020 we had unprecedented issues. Shortened spring training, players way off their regular build up regimen. IL trips not related to injuries, but to COVID.
Its not debatable. The facts are clear. There were substantially more pitcher injuries that resulted in an IL stay since the institution of the pitch clock.
Maybe next time you will look for real facts instead of depending on Wiki before you call someone a liar.
Dude, did you even look at that spreadsheet before posting it and flaming the other poster?
It includes freakin’ high school pitchers. And college, and minors.
Did you? His count, as far as I got, is correct. He only counted the ones listed under MLB.
FPG, none of those years has the right number of TJ surgeries. I downloaded a spreadsheet of all of them last December. I will look for a link to it and post it here when I do.
FPG, Pads Fans beat me to it. There is the link.
Seam, You do know how to sort for MLB or any other field in a spreadsheet, right? Or just count them if you don’t.
Pads Fans got the numbers right.
I’ve heard more intelligent arguments from 6 year olds. MLBPA using this as an excuse to complain about pitch clock. MLB doesn’t have any real answers and makes things worse in general by implementing changes that exactly no one ever wanted in the first place
I agree, and to be honest, I think the pitch clock is a joke. Baseball was never meant to be timed like football, basketball or hockey. Managers managed their teams just fine prior to the clock, and could continue to do so going forward w/o a clock.
Lord, Which is why MLB should have waited a year or two, studied what was happening in term of player health before making further changes.
Just wait for them to get into it over an MLB Team playing in a minor league park for 4 years.
It’s gonna get spicy
“Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way” Ahahaha!
“Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown,
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way!”
You’ve got to be trusted by the people that you lie to.
I can think of about 30 people who trust Manfred, and not many more.
Nearly every MLB player has already played in MILB parks for 4 years. What’s your point?
AtlOrioles: His point, as I understand it, is referencing the other Owners v Players battle that is getting ready to kick off because the Oak A’s are playing in a substandard (according to the MLBPA) facility for major league players.
There is supposed to be a benefit to making it to the major leagues. Better facilities to train and play in is one of them.
They’ll have to hire a medical firm to conduct an independent investigation.
It’s a valid point, but it will take years to develop enough data to sufficiently determine if the injuries are correlated to the clock. That’s why it’s probably not best to use the mlb as this testing ground and ruin multi-million dollar arms while figuring it out, imho.
And then, as many others have pointed out, how do they control all the other variables that may contribute to injuries as much or more than the clock? It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, nonetheless.
Easiest solution would be expand rosters to 30 all season. Let teams carry more pen arms / swing guys
Data does suggest 2 times thru an order is enough (6 innings) but what if your day 2 starter gets hammered and turns into a bull pen game? how does that affect day 3 starter who needs to give his team a few extra innings cause the pen is taxed. Or what if a game goes into extras and pen is taxed in extras how does that affect in the coming days guys?
Idk what effect pitch clock has or doesnt have but definitely think teams being allowed to carry more pitchers would help keep guys fresher and reduce injuries (hopefully).
Carrying more pitchers means teams will have their starters pitch fewer innings. That’s making a different problem (starters no longer going 6 innings) worse.
Teams already pull them prior to 6 once they hit 2 times thru the order which happens more frequently at 5, 5 1/3, 5 2/3 than it does at 6. Idk how that makes it worse when they do it already.
More pitchers means it’s easier to pull the starter even earlier, because you have more pitchers available to pitch more innings. Pretty soon, starters are going 3 innings a game regularly because there’s a parade of relievers ready to enter afterwards.
Easy – Sorry but that doesn’t make sense. They’ve already got way too many with 13 pitchers on the rosters. What are you proposing, relievers pitch an inning a week? Starters pitching 3-4 innings max?
There’s already been discussions of reducing the pitcher limits to 11-12 and requiring a minimum number of days on the ML roster when pitchers are added, I support both those changes.
Im proposing having more guys available (even taxi squad call up) in the event teams blow thru pen guys cause a starter gets shelled 1 inning 2 innings into a start and a team has to use 3-4 possibly more pen guys to finish the game. Itd be nice if the following day the team had some fresh arms available so a starter doesnt need to go 7 8 innings cause the pen is taxed.
We see it every year at some point. Especially with extra inning games where teams are pressed for guys being unavailable in the coming days.
Easy – There’s another pitching change being discussed that would resolve that problem …. requiring starting pitchers to stay in games a minimum number of innings before they are eligible to be pulled, unless they are injured of course.
There’s a reason why all these injuries began in 2010 when expanded bullpens became fashionable, in large part because of the always-max-velocity approach to pitching.
Why would teams legislate banning the Opener? Do we really think enough teams are going to intentionally eliminate that flexibility? Ban bullpen games?
More pitchers means more injuries. If you have ten of something or twenty of something which is more likely to have a broken one? The ten or the twenty?
Yes.
The group that you use the most. So the 10. Because its being given more wear and tear since there is less of them, used more frequently.
The group of 20 is each used less which equals less wear and tear.
When you use things more often they break down faster
Teams have been carrying more pitchers on their rosters than ever before. They even had to make a rule limiting pitchers to 13. Lo and behold we also have more pitcher injuries than ever before. More pitchers = more pitcher injuries
Yeah totally not guys throwing harder than ever before and being asked to pitch 180-200 innings (same work load) but throw harder and faster or tweak arm angles to maximize spin rates. Totally not that stuff. More pitchers more injuries. Right.
The constant messing with mechanics for spin/movement plays a big part too imo
ohyea- more pitchers = more injuries. Numerically true, but using 10 pitchers all the time is going to break them faster. You have to look at ratios; would 10 used constantly break faster than 14-20 used sporadically? I would lean towards yes.
Easy – How many pitchers do you think MLB teams had on their roster pre-2010?
And how many TJS do you think there were pre-2010?
It’s called Critical Thinking.
Critical thinking skills would also tell you that
MPH on pitches increasing since 2010 taxes the arm more.
Throwing 100 pitches at 97 MPH puts more strain in an arm throwing 100 pitches at 92 MPH
Spin rates and movement on pitches increasing since 2010 requiring more strain on arms to yield such results. Throwing more sliders cutters pitches with spin rate and movement taxes the arm more.
Critical thinking skills would also tell you teams aren’t going to stop trying to maximize velocity spin rate movement. The only answer then is have them throw those pitches less (80 90 pitch counts instead of 100, 110). reducing pitch counts. Reducing pitch counts means you need more arms to make up the difference in reduction. Not constantly use the same arms to make up the difference. Cause then those arms also start to fatigue.
Critical thinking.
I like where you are going with this. But I don’t see the MLBPA going for it. You would be pitching pitchers less and making them less valuable and teams would have true reason to pay them less. The MLBPA would rather shred every arm than do that.
To be clear, im imagining almost like a taxi squad situation where these guys are only available in the event something like this happens. The guys who are unavailable after long extra inning games or if a starter gets rocked dress in street clothes and are considered unavailable and replaced by these guys for a game or so…..but only if you use a significant amount of pen arms to complete a game say 5 or so.
Piggybacking on your idea, Easy- maybe make your Rotation the Taxi Squad? Today’s starter would have to be one of the 26, but you could have 12 in the Pen. Your 4 other Starters are deemed “unavailable” but still “rostered” on the Squad? Idk
“But I dont see the MLBPA going for it”
What? They would love more members. It would only take a few years to get used to it, just like we’ve gotten used to not seeing the number of complete games from 20-30 years ago.
The MLBPA would have more active members, but the money they are making would be less as they are pitching less. I think we are already seeing this (outside of Yamamoto) with the free agent market. What would the Union want, more members that pay less into it or less members that pay more into it? Does it even out? I don’t think it does.
MLBPA would love the rosters at 30, the Owners? Not so much. Would have to be collectively bargained anyhow, and that is not happening anytime soon.
For discussion purposes, how does carrying less pitchers (12 or less) help with workloads and injuries of the now more taxed arms? Lessening active pitchers on rosters would only create and exacerbate more problems.
James Midway
I dont understand the logic. With more members you would get more money, not less. If 500 people give you $100, or 700 people give you $99 you want the second group. (and no, Im not saying that is the number of pitchers or the amount they are giving, its just an example) It doesnt matter if there is a slight drop in AAV, with more members they would get a larger total sum.
The fact that paydays are less is due to many factors. One is Big Contracts for pitchers turn into busts soooo often, teams are afraid of these mega deals. Also, baseball isnt the draw it used to be, revenue isnt skyrocketing like it used to.
Thank you Easy for making actual sense. Increase roster size and go to a 6 man rotation, increase bullpen starts, and piggybacks. MLB needs to expand rosters especially after getting rid of the 40 man roster in September. Plus many teams would love to carry 3 catchers nowadays too.
The best argument against roster expansion has always been it would increase game length but the pitch clock made that not matter as much.
I’ve got the solution! Underhand arc pitching!
Just put it back at 20. Dropping it to 18 was stupid anyway.
In order to even just save ten mintues, 300 pitches would need to be thrown, if my math is correct. Game time has barely changed from last year, by one minute according to Baseball Reference. Eliminating the two seconds has not sped up the game anymore than last year.
Dark – I totally agree, MLB needs to stop catering to the ADD crowd. You don’t see other sports trying to make games faster than MLB games already are.
The only counterpoint I’d profer, FPG, is virtually every other sport (sans golf) has a clock.
Dark – I agree. Reset the clock to 20 with runners on base. Also allow pitchers to step off once per plate appearance (in addition to the “disengagements” to prevent steals). Betters can call time out. Pitchers should have a similar option. The game wouldn’t slow down that much.
And while we are on the topic of shortening games, just eliminating Angel Hernandez’ poor umpiring would probably save an hour per game…..
If Manfred made a mistake in all of this, it was shortening the pitch clock time again, without having given sufficient time(sample size) to measure the impact of the pitch clock on pitching injuries in the first place.
mlb – Exactly! I wish someone would challenge Theo on the change, as he was most responsible for the implementation of the pitch clock.
As a fan, I don’t really much care about the time itself, just that they needed a clock to establish a cadence to the game. It felt like prior to it, you’d get guys walking around the box, or the mound, and whenever they felt up to it, then the pitch was thrown. So I don’t think even 20 and 25 vs 15 and 20 would make that big of a difference in lengthening the game. You just need to have something on the books to let guys know hey we need to keep the game moving.
On second thought…20 and 25 is a bit much. But there’s got to be some middle ground.
More time was wasted by batters than pitchers.
Cuz Nomar had to adjust everything for a minute after every pitch. His OCD was ridiculous to every pitcher he faced. Granted, there are Human Rain Delays on the mound, too… quite honestly, the real solution was holding the umps accountable to the already existing rules (pre-pitch clock)
They just refused to enforce it on the field, creating the clock situation.
This ^^^^^^ 100%.
The rules were already in place.
Either way, the rules are working. And if a tweak here or there is what they need, it’s all good.
I don’t know the history of the basketball shot clock, but I’d think there was some amount of experimenting until they came up with the “right” amount of time.
The NBA shot clock was changed in 1954 to 24 seconds and its still the same.
Of course it’s the clock, it’s become stupid. A marathon when it’s go go go, and it wasn’t the pitchers goofing it up in the first place. The Garciapara glove dance was insane to watch then it got insanely worse around the league. It needs to be lengthen not shorten. Give the pitchers a break.
Agreed. It was the batters more than pitchers delaying things.
The game is becoming increasingly sterile. Bring personalities back in to it. Get rid of the pitch clock altogether. I like watching a guy like Greinke messing in the heads of hitters in between pitches. And, I didn’t have a problem with a guy like Mike Hargrove going through his OCD gyrations at the plate in between pitches.
All these recent changes to the game have on average only shortened games by 22 minutes. Woop Dee Doo. And then there’s this injury thing issue that’s now surfacing as well.
I get it. MLB is trying to bring in new younger fans. How about instead of screwing around with the integrity of play, celebrate it. Market the hell out of it!
Less game time = less commercials which = less money for the broadcasters. Don’t shoot the goose that lays the golden egg.
Which is why the Pitch Clock magically gets extended in the Postseason.
Half-inning end commercials are intact. The only loss is less time to get a sponsor for the windup!
No batter ever slowed the game down so much, that it became literally unwatchable, than Cory Gearrin.
Nomar has entered the chat
Nomar was a minute man compared to Gearrin.
You’re probably not old enough to remember Mike Hargrove, People called him the human rain delay. He was much worse than Nomar. Hargrove would step out of the batter’s box following each pitch and: adjust his helmet; adjust his batting gloves making sure they fit exactly right especially around the thumbs; pull each sleeve up about an inch; wipe each hand on his uniform pants; reach back to adjust his rear pockets; knock the dirt from his cleats – both feet – with the bat; clean his bat wiping it between arm and side, take 3 swings, flex his shoulders; adjust the gloves again; rub his nose; adjust the rubber ring to protect his thumb; and then repeat the entire sequence. on every single pitch. And even he wasn’t as excruciating to watch as Cory Gearrin.
Loaisiga could sit down and watch a full episode of Seinfeld in between each pitch and he’d still blow his arm out every season
Don’t stop, make it pop
DJ, blow my speakers up
Tonight, I’ma fight
‘Til we see the sunlight
Tick-tock on the clock
But the party don’t stop, no
Oh, whoa, whoa-oh
Oh, whoa, whoa-oh
Don’t stop, make it pop
About 25 years ago, after baseball screwed up losing half a season along with the WS, the HR ball became the rave. “Chicks dig the long ball”…..and the steroid era followed.
Now, with starters going shorter and shorter, they’re not pacing themselves and high velocity is the rave. We know what ramifications came from the steroid era, and now we’re seeing that the velocity over location is causing numerous arm problems. Sure, guys are bigger and stronger, but there’s only so much one can to to strengthen the joints, primarily the ligaments in the elbow. The pitch clock isn’t my favorite, but don’t think that’s the issue here.
Yep. Somehow pitchers pitched deep into games on a four man rotation at a pace faster than the current pitch clock and didn’t blow their arms out like they do now. Guys are getting TJ surgeries at the high school and college levels but I’m sure that’s Manfred’s fault too.
Spin rate, velocity and the pitch clock are all contributing factors. Most Pitchers earn their living with spin rate and velocity so the pitch clock is basically strike three. It clearly adds to the potential for an injury. MLB cares almost as little for their players as they do for their fans
It might not do any good. But I think in spring training while they’re working to amp up their arm strength and the games don’t mean anything, and in the playoffs, there shouldn’t be one.
Removing it from spring training would at least eliminate them from over working themselves before their arms are ready or at full strength. And since the games don’t mean anything, there’s no good reason to enforce it.
Removing it from the playoffs, or at the very least significantly extending it, to like 30-35 seconds, allows them to take more time in a playoff game when it counts the most, without increasing the chance of a significant series altering injury. Nobody would want to see a teams top pitcher go down hurt in the playoffs.
So during the regular season, when you have so many games a day, implicate it as it is, and keep the games time under control. In spring training and playoffs, just use no clock or a much higher number.
Maybe its a coincidence? Maybe its pitch clock? Maybe this crop of pitchers is the first to experience wholesale application of refined biomechanical sciences in their development, leading recird breaking velocities/spin rates and faster degradation?
Maybe it’s Maybelline?
I still want to know why she can’t be true
I agree with Glasnow. The ball is so slick, without any substances now, they have to grip it so much harder. Harder the grip, more likelihood of injury.
Asking the wrong questions. Sloppy science and sloppy critical thinking to be charitable. It would be more fruitful to look at all the factors that have changed over time before isolating a single variable. The time frame needs to be longer than a year or two as injuries to pitchers appears to have been increasing for a much longer period. I would suspect that the increase in pitcher injuries is due to multiple factors and not a single factor such as the pitch clock.
MLBPA run by a bunch of morons. Just because you need something to whine about making up crap and ignoring actual facts makes you a politician of a certain party not someone with a valid position. Great how the media loves to stir this stuff up just to get a few more sources and boring stories.
“The league argued that there has been no empirical backing pointing to the clock as a contributing factor to pitcher injuries.”
If you don’t look for something, you won’t find it.
You definitely won’t find it when you’ve already decided what the answer is.
It’s been studied to death. It’s just completely implausible, no matter how much the “we hate the pitch clock” crowd would love to use pitcher injuries as a weapon (that includes the MLBPA). I mean, pace of game has only been an issue in the last ten years or so. Before that, games used to go VERY fast, with much less time between pitches than the pitch clock limits. And guys threw many more pitches too. The difference between then and now is not a pitch clock. It’s velocity and spin. This is completely open and shut. It’s not even interesting it’s so obvious.
Name a study.
Seam, the entire problem is that it hasn’t been studied.
We know that minor league injuries increased substantially after they started using the pitch clock in 2015. It’s stayed high since then.
We know that injuries in MLB increased last season and this season started with a record number of pitchers on the IL.
The increase in injuries since they started using the pitch clock is a given. A fact.
We don’t know if it’s direct causation or just correlation precisely because there has been no study done.
This is not a good look for the game. Just give the pitchers more time. I don’t think hitters are going to complain either to readjust their batting glove velcro one extra time. We’ll need years of data to find anything conclusive right now.
Pitch clock has nothing to do with the problem – superficial suggestion. Maxing out velocity & obsessing over spin rate, while learning new pitches under that scheme, are far more likely the culprit. Pitchers used to work fast back in the day – players association is reaching on this one. Pitch clock has been a distinctly positive addition to what was becoming a painfully dull viewing experience. The players were warned to speed-up the pace of play countless times – players didn’t listen.
Nobody knows that for sure whether the clock is a contributing factor.
Yank – seems like a conveniently-timed-excuse for a problem that’s been steadily building for a while. Sounds like posturing & bargaining on behalf of the players’ association.
The problem is that while it had been steadily building for years, it exploded as soon as they instituted the pitch clock over the objection of the players.
Remember, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the committee voted against the pitch clock and against changing it again so quickly. Maybe MLB should have listened to the people actually playing the games.
We don’t know for sure if it was the pitch clock. All we know is we saw a 30% increase in injuries as soon as they instituted the pitch clock. Then the number increased this spring again.
Logic tells us that if that explosion of injuries was from increases in velocity or spin rate then it would not have increased that fast. It would have just continued on its path of the last decade or so.
This deserved real study over several years before MLB made more changes, Now they are trying to cover their behinds because they know that the MLBPA will rake them over the coals about this.
My thoughts are that MLB needs to stop catering to the checkers crowd and push the game for the chess crowd that understands the nuances and strategy of the game. Stop dumbing it down for the lowest common denominator.
Pads fan is it chess when a 12 year old knows what’s going to happen? Managers don’t manage by instinct anymore and haven’t for awhile now. It’s all coming down from the FO by tech nerds who have never even played before. When managers actually managed games they were played at a pace faster than the pitch clock. With four man rotations. And none of this garbage about a third time through the lineup.
I would bet you can’t guess 10% of pitches with location today and you have the availability of data that no FO or manager had before the 2010s.
In the 1940’s and 1950’s coaches and managers kept books of pitch charts. Ted Williams was famous for it. When I was in college one of the first jobs I had was charting pitches for baseball games that college played. I was paid $10 per game in 1980. Today they have machines that do that much more accurately than any human possibly could They still can’t guess pitches with location well enough that teams are not trying to cheat. See the Astros, Yankees, Red Sox and 9 other teams that used electronic sign stealing in 2017.
Before the mid-1980’s and the advent of cable TV there was no TV money bonanzas. Games were shorter because it didn’t matter how long the game was. Selling commercials was not a big deal.
Also attendance was MUCH lower than it is now. Look at average attendance per game in the 1970’s and 1980’s. baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/misc.shtml
Its interesting that as the games got longer, the attendance went UP, not down.
2023 had higher attendance than any year in the 1970s or 1980s and not by a small amount. 15 million more fans than the highest attendance in the 1980s..
Interestingly enough, the drop in attendance correlates to the adoption of smartphones. The 1st iPhone was in 2007 and the 1st Android phone in 2008. Not saying attention span deficit started with the iPhone, but it is an interesting correlation.
I can go on forever about this subject, but this is not the place for a book.
I think the solution has to do with the ball itself. In a world of incredible modern technology, MLB might explore having the core of the ball completely re-engineered. It could easily be made to behave just as it does now, but it could also be lightened, which would take much of that strain away. A lighter ball would naturally be slightly more flight restricted. I believe this can all be done with such precision that it could systemically reduce the strain on pitchers elbows, while allowing them to pitch with their normal motions while not compromising the quality of the game. This was done in Jai Alia and the new ball performance is just like the old but the new ones have much longer life and are more consistent.
Of course they could do this. MLB bought Rawlings and has admitted they change the ball from year to year.
I wonder why they don’t. Maybe it has something to do with what Dr Meredith Wills accused mlb of
Kids have been throwing curveballs and fastballs for decades. The problem is they aren’t being pitchers, they’re being chuckers. The focus is on high velocity, which is seeing these injuries crop up. If you know how to pitch and how to get guys out, you can be effective, but scouts and ownership are looking for the velocity to pay. And given the small cost to sign these guys, if the team can push for more velocity all the time, if the guy flames out, the loss wasn’t as bad as if they had signed a mega deal later.
The problem isn’t the clock, the problem is max velocity on every pitch, even in warm-ups. Not seeing how that will change when the golden carrot is dangled in front of the guy on the mound. for piling up K’s rather than a weak grounder to second base.
There’s also this list of 2021-22 TJS pitchers coming back last year who were all injured pre-pitch clock, and as can be seen, with decidedly mixed results.. mlbtraderumors.com/2023/01/post-tommy-john-players…
Even if Manfred is right he loses the argument because he did what he wanted anyway when the players 100% disagreed with it. When you lead a league but then have a complete disregard of the players that actually play the game you’re a failure as a leader.
Seems like the MLBPA is being opportunistic with these injuries. Clark doesn’t know what he’s talking about and presents zero data to back his claim.
DO you really believe that Clark doesn’t have the data? WE have the data on how many pitchers were injured.
When the pitch clock was first instituted we saw a 30% increase in injuries. This season we had a record number of pitchers on the IL to start the season, 128 vs 96 last year. The basic data is there. Injuries have skyrocketed in the last 2 season.
Pitch velocity and spin rates have NOT skyrocketed in the last two years. They have continued to trend upwards, but the haven’t changed substantially enough to account for that many more injuries. LONG TERM changes that MLB is trying to say are the issue would not result in short term explosions in the numbers of injuries.
So what has changed?
Why doesn’t Clark refer to it in his statement ? Broadly mentions empirical data and moves on. Amateur hour at the MLBPA.
The notion that owners are knowingly doing something to hurt pitchers is ludicrous. Paying players to not pitch is their biggest headache. There’s zero logic in a pitch clock taking precedent over pitcher health. “Nobody wants to see pitchers get hurt in this game”
We HAVE the empirical data. The number of IL visits by MLB pitchers is way up. The number of MLB pitchers on the IL to begin the season is way up. The question is why haven’t you been paying attention?
Obviously the owners don’t care about pitchers getting hurt, only about getting their way or they would have done more research. A look at minor league pitching injuries after the implementation of the pitching clock in 2015 should have been enough.
Here is the data for elbow injuries In the minors – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
57 TJ in 2013
61 TJ in 2014
87 TJ in 2015
81 TJ in 2016
Then even more research before changing it again.
Clark is just trying to distract from the recent near mutiny in the player’s association.
BS. They have been complaining about the changes since BEFORE the first implementation of the pitch clock. ALL the players on the committee voted against it.
Clark has the data. WE have the data on injuries. Clark is correct.
Ha ha ha. Who needs a research study when you have know it all fans. So funny.
HAHAHA, who needs know it all fans when you have know NOTHING fans that refuse to even look at the facts like you.
You cannot dispute the facts so you try to insult others like an 8 year old? What does that say about you?
Why do people that know nothing at all and refuse to even look at the facts think that they should comment?
If you paid for the study, then you either got ripped off or are lying, because it remains in peer review and is not publicly available. We know only the abstract. in other words the questions that the study was seeking to find an answer for and that abstract did not include anything beyond the 2023 season.
I know that you are trying to save face, but you are doing it poorly. At some point you will have to face the facts, and they are that you are wrong almost 100% of the time and argumentative to a fault. That is why your accounts keep getting banned.
From the article on this from ESPN 4 hours ago.
“Considering the study remains in peer review, using its unverifiable findings, even as a rejoinder to the union’s statement, speaks to a lack of the transparency that’s imperative in tackling the problem.”
Also from that article:
“The fact that the union wants more information on the pitch clock should matter to MLB. Even if the league did bargain during negotiations with the MLBPA for a far shorter window to implement on-field rules changes, it can’t ignore what players continue to begrudge. This isn’t idle bellyaching.”
I subscribed to deepdyve, downloaded what was there and cancelled the subscription. Not the complete thing and I didn’t have to pay, so you got me on those. The point is I’ve done my fair share of reading and listening on the subject. The majority of expertise is on spin and velocity as the main driver. Verlander is worth a listen. He has lived it.
Being wrong is cool. No drama. Not sure I’m running at 100%, but whatever. I like being a dude that knows he gets it wrong. Nothing to be scared of there.
I’ve been banned twice for calling a little b@tch troll a little b&tch troll. Not exactly looking sleep over that either.
I am calling bs Foppert. If it was available both the Union and ESPN would have it.
You are lying and you got caught. Just admit it and move on son instead of digging yourself a bigger hole by lying more.
I am calling bs on that Foppert. If it was available both the Union and ESPN would have it.
You are lying and you got caught. Just admit it and move on son instead of digging yourself a bigger hole by lying more.
Money is at the root of this. 5 million if you get drafted high. 14 year olds getting TJ. Kids getting TJ as an elective surgery!Some professional youth instructors make a lot of money teaching kids how to grip the ball tighter or throw harder.
A combination of the pitch clock and pitchers throwing harder than ever.
I’m also seeing pitchers making more money than ever as well. Maybe that’s contributing.
That’s part of it as well. Kids are upping their velo to get paid.
The funny thing is that the area right around the Coliseum has dramatically skyrocketing property values and all sorts of movie tradesmen and other celebrities moving into the area. Theres a reason why the area around the Coliseum is very widely referred to as ‘Malibu North’ now. Very soon the property values around the Coliseum will exceed $2,000 per sq ft on average.
So the joke is on the “athletics” if they decide to leave.
Just get rid of the pitch clock it has no place in baseball!
Nothing to do with the pitch clock. Go back and watch games from the 60s-early 80s. Pitchers took no time between pitches and threw complete games with 175 pitches, EVERY FOUR DAYS! It has everything to do with the need for speed and spin. It’s a training problem. And a greed problem – Mo speed, mo money.
Yet another black Mark for mlb
Astro cheating scandal, botched pandemic season, rule changes, ohtani betting scandal, now pitchers dropping like flies & instead of defending the players & doing something about it mlb denied any wrongdoing. The sport is on life support as it is. Thanks to manfred & greedy owners… just sickening whats happening to this great game
I’m starting to hate baseball
The constant rule changes have not benefitted pitchers. Even if the pitch clock is not the cause of the spike in injuries.
There should be a dispute on how there’s a limit to the number of throw overs to a runner occupying a base as detrimental to the game .
I doubt knuckleballers would have any issue with the pitch clock or arm injuries as a result of it. Catchers might need more of a break from the pitch clock than the knuckleballers.
The issue is in the max effort, max velocity, max spin rate philosophy. It should be obvious to anyone on both sides, MLB and MLBPA.
Long-time pitching coach Ray Miller’s philosophy of “Work fast, throw strikes, change speeds” was a good one and did not require any kind of max effort language.
Any pitcher in the league that pitched college ball from 2011 on and in AA or higher since 2015 had had to deal with a pitch clock most of the league should be well used to it by now and should not be a huge issue.
Here is the data for elbow injuries In the minors – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
57 TJ in 2013
61 TJ in 2014
87 TJ in 2015
81 TJ in 2016
It’s logical to assume that there isn’t a single, general, root cause to all the injuries we are seeing. In the same way, logical to assume that pitcher’s physiology differs somewhat from player to player–some might be sensitive to the pitch count, others not. But in light of the overall angst regarding big-money contracts given pitchers, it might make sense to quiet down the posturing and actually try to find out.
Manfred’s mess !!
Give the pitchers their spidey tack back & less arms will be destroyed
The Pitch Clock is not an issue. If a pitcher cannot get himself set within the time it is because he has decided he wants to play Wait-And-See with the Batter. That is why the Time Clock is in existence. What should be addressed that probably will help with Pitcher injuries is a Single Form of Tack Allowed on Pitcher Hands. There was an pretty good article making the case on the injuries due to the High Rev or Spin Rate or Velo on the Ball for each pitch. BUT to even the Field I would also Get Rid of the New Tightly Wrapped Balls.
#MLBPAposturing
Arms aren’t equipped to handle max effort to achieve maximum velocity & maximum spin rate, overuse and repetitive motion. End of.
I know common sense is lost on some people. But just adding facts to things disproves many things. 90% of the pitchers occurred in spring training and in offseason workouts where zero clocks were implemented. The only player who down during the year was Strider and he has already came out and said learning to throw a curveball put more strain on his shoulder.
What about Eury and Biebs? And that was just this week.
I feel vindicated with all the grief I’ve received for continuously saying the pitch clock is causing injuries. We were told that the players were all for it which we learn now was absolute crap. Pause the rule until there is solid evidence in either direction.
100% of the players on the committee voted against the pitch clock in both votes
Throughout the rule changes, MLB has represented that the Payers are in agreement with the pitch clock. Manfred is horrible.
Manfred lied…again. What is new.
2 things (for the most part) cause TJS….throwing with max effort all the time and throwing overhand. TJ is also known as javelin elbow, as a javelin is also thrown at max effort and overhand.
The pitch clock does not account for the record 46 TJS in 2012,
The pitch clock argument is much ado about nothing.
There were not 46 Tj surgeries in 2012 There were 34 and that includes Carl Crawford.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
mlbreports.com/tj-surgery/
conflicting reports
Go with the spreadsheet that has each and every one listed and where they were playing at the time of the surgery. If you do that you find that 12 of those players were in the minors, not MLB, at the time of the surgery. 34 is the right number.
They could at least eliminate the pitch clock during the first week of spring training to see if that makes a difference.
Also, are minor league pitchers getting injured at the same rate as major leaguers?
The pitch clock was a real time saver last year and a real improvement to baseball.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Shaving two seconds off does nothing except open the door for player complaints,which are baseless.
The Player’s Association is also wrong on another point.
The fans are the most important part of baseball.
Without them paying the freight the players would not be millionaires and the owners would not be billionaires.
The longer games got, the more fans attended.
baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/misc.shtml
It’s high velocity. Of the 15 starters who averaged the highest velo on fastballs since 2021, 10 have had TJ surgery. The ones without TJ include Garret Cole who is having elbow issues now and Brandon Woodruff who has injured his shoulder. Lastly, one of the 3 remaining healthy pitchers on the hard throwing list is Grayson Rodriguez who hasnt pitched a full season at the mlb level yet.
The issue with velo being the culprit is that someone in AAA will risk injury to get a big league check so if you arent throwing max effort you are falling behind.
blogs.fangraphs.com/more-ucl-tears-prompt-pointed-…
This is what major league pitchers think the biggest cause is. It makes a lot of sense too. The solution is probably to increase roster sizes because I can’t see anyway of getting guys of throwing softer. Decreasing workload, allowing more rest might be the best to alleviate the injuries.
Yeah you sure aren’t going to get players to throw softer when you consider the players make 62,000 in AAA and 740,000 minimum on the major league IL
It’s not from the pitch clock… It’s from banning anything to make gripping a baseball easier. When you grip harder it puts more strain on the elbow. They (the pitchers) said that when they banned it…
I think you’re definitely at least partially correct.
Ban the pitch clock!!! Stop messing with the game MLB! How many years did we endure the “shifts” before MLB decided it wasn’t fair nor did it enhance the game?? Lastly, get rid of the Manfred runner on 2B in extra inning games!!!
The MLBPA cries and whines about every single rule change. They oppose any and all changes just to try and wrap it up into the next CBA. I feel like the next CBA will probably be preceded by a work stoppage/strike for sure due to the MLBPA being totally disconnected from reality.
I keep seeing some variation of “MLB shouldn’t cater to people with no attention spans” etc.
AKA virtually everyone in 2024.
The days of people being so helplessly bored that virtually anything will entertain them all evening…
They gone.
Bingo. Many old folks struggle to accept and adapt to societal change. Too hard.
The funny thing for me is the “fark them” approach. As long as the game is around while I’m alive I’m good. Telling attitude.
Big shocker
Because 2 seconds makes that big of a difference?
If Pitchers didn’t act like they get paid by the hour when they are on the mound there wouldn’t be a pitch clock to begin with
its been clearly shown that BATTERS created more of a delay in game flow than pitchers prior to the pitch clock and there were already rules in place to deal with that without a pitch clock. Umpires did not enforce the rules that were already on the books. .
All things, be it man made, or God made, can only take so much stress before breaking. What makes this difficult to solve is the breaking point for no two players is the same.
Seems to me places like Tread and Driveline are certainly major contributors to pushing Pitchers past the breaking point with some of their drills that are designed to increase speed and spin.
Yes. Seeing them operate was an eye opener for me. Those young developing guys can’t wait to get to the laptop after they throw a pitch. Chasing numbers in a big way. Data is such a powerful motivator.
When they announced they were lowering the pitch clock this season I thought, lower it?, raise it. Or get rid of it.
Baseball has literally never been a short attention span game, ever. I can understand wanting to speed it up a little, but not at this cost.
As an Astros fan, we have Verlander, Garcia, Urquidy, and as of today Valdez all down with arm and shoulder injuries sustained this season or last. Seems a little high to me.
The clock has nothing to do with it. It all has to do with them trying to throw as hard as a can. Remember,most teams aren’t paying for you to be fine with your location. They just want the 100 mph. For some reason MLB thinks that’s what all the fans want, when I don’t see that being the case. If he can throw at 93 out of the rotation I’m good with it. I’d rather him know he’s meaning to hit the guy, rather than it be an accident at 103.
Pitch clock my ass. these guys are throwing max effort on every pitch from an early age…that is a recipe for disaster. Either baseball moves to a 2-3 inning max workload with rest in between or every pitcher will blow out their elbows every couple of years. There is a reason pitchers routinely pitched 200-300 innings a year in the past, they knew how to pace themselves.
Wow. MLB is trying to say that a study that has not been released nor has it even been peer-reviewed yet somehow proves their argument.
That’s like me saying “believe me, this company is solid even though we haven’t done an audit yet”.
There is no question that injuries have increased since MLB forced a pitch clock on the MLB players against their wishes. They had already seen the same type of increase in MiLB when they started using a pitch clock in 2015. The only question is whether that increase is because of a direct cause or just correlation.
Either way, the players deserved for MLB to listen to them and not force a second change on them a year later without doing a substantial study that the players were part of first. As usual, Manfred screwed the pooch and made relations with the players worse.
The union bosses are idiots. When they allowed the league to unilaterally pass rule changes without having to have a single player vote on the committee, they sealed their fate. Tony Clark should be fired for that.
Max effort pitching over changing speed and locations. These guys have TJ in college often now.
Its the same relative game speed as MLB was un into this century. Minors have used the clock a long time.
Simply posturing.
I gun a LOT and see constant reliever max effort out of starters. They’re going 4-5 with a closer approach and mentality.
I like some of the changes over the years, but this one is just awful.
Alex Wood says he thinks it’s multiple factors including kids throwing yearround now (no breaks), poor scheduling by mlb, and inconsistencies to each park’s mound: https://x.com/awood45/status/1777486780691853761?s=42&t=NQX-B1llJcHhQPQl–KzKw
Mlb says high velocity
Players say clock
Its probably a little bit of both
But mlb is to blame for it all. Bec the way the game is structured its all about how hard & fast can you throw. Coaches encourage it at a young age
Change the way pitchers are developed, what pitches they’re told to throw and how, maybe youll see less injuries