Recent reporting has painted a picture of a divided MLBPA, where some players are pushing for deputy director Bruce Meyer to be replaced by Harry Marino. One of the charges coming from the pro-Marino camp are that Meyer and executive director Tony Clark are too aligned with agent Scott Boras. Evan Drellich of The Athletic spoke to Boras and Marino while also reporting on various other factors of the feud.
“If you have great ideas, and you want those ideas to be promulgated in a manner that is beneficial to the union and the players they represent, you go to Tony Clark with your plan,” Boras said. “You discuss it with him first, and the many lawyers in the union. If you have issues with the union and you want to be involved with the union, you take your ideas to them. You do not take them publicly, you do not create this coup d’etat and create really a disruption inside the union. If your goal is to help players, it should never be done this way.”
Marino also provided comment: “The players who sought me out want a union that represents the will of the majority. Scott Boras is rich because he makes — or used to make — the richest players in the game richer. That he is running to the defense of Tony Clark and Bruce Meyer this morning is genuinely alarming.”
It’s understandable why there is frustration among the players right now, as the offseason has clearly not been kind to them. Many notable free agents remained unsigned into Spring Training and some are even languishing on the open market right now. Various teams are claiming to be at their respective spending limits, often due to uncertainty around TV revenue or competitive balance tax concerns.
Players like Jordan Montgomery, J.D. Martinez, Michael Lorenzen, Brandon Belt, Donovan Solano, Tommy Pham, Robbie Grossman and many others are currently unattached. In recent weeks, players like Michael A. Taylor, Adam Duvall, Tim Anderson, Gio Urshela, Amed Rosario, Randal Grichuk and others have signed for $5MM or less. Players like Blake Snell, Cody Bellinger and Matt Chapman were predicted for nine-figure deals at the start of the offseason but had to recently pivot to short-term, opt-out laden pacts.
On top of that, the players seem to have been rankled by the peculiar situation involving J.D. Davis and the Giants. He and the club went to an arbitration hearing, which he won, as the arbiters awarded him a $6.9MM salary for this year instead of the $6.5MM figure the club sought. Arbitration salaries are guaranteed if the sides avoid a hearing but not if they go to one. After the Giants signed Chapman and no longer needed Davis as their third baseman, they released him, only owing him 30 days’ termination pay of $1.11MM. He later signed with the Athletics for a $2.5MM guarantee and $1MM of incentives. Even if he unlocks all those bonuses, he’s still wind up losing more than $2MM by this series of events.
Casey Mize, the Tigers’ MLBPA player rep, spoke to Drellich about the various issues causing the upset. “I think if you went around the room and asked, I think everybody would give you a different answer,” Mize said. “Coming off the heels of this free agency is a pretty glaring one. But there’s tons of details. You could look at the J.D. Davis situation. You could look at free agency. I think you could look at the taxes of the CBT (competitive balance tax) stuff. So many guys are going to give you different answers, whether it’s service time or whatever. I don’t want to get into details of what frustrates me or what I heard last night, but in general, we’re just looking for ways to get better. Those are discussions we have all the time, and yeah, we had one last night.”
Drellich reports that this winter’s frustration has “banded together some agents and players” who have had past dissatisfaction with the union but without being spurred into action until now. The earlier reporting had suggested there was a “strained” relationship between Marino and Meyer, and Drellich depicts a split in the MLBPA between a Marino camp and a Meyer camp. The report adds that the fates of Clark and Meyer are tied, so that both would depart the MLBPA if Marino has enough support to be put into a leadership position. A scenario where Marino effectively replaces Meyer and works alongside Clark is seen as unlikely at this point.
Though it’s plain to see why the players may not be thrilled with the developments of this offseason, it’s surprising from a distance to see such animosity bubbling out into the public, as this isn’t the first time the players have faced difficulties with the economics of baseball. The executive director of the MLBPA has historically been a lawyer or labor leader, but Clark became the first former player to hold the position in 2013. The 2016-21 collective bargaining agreement, this first of his tenure, was widely panned for being a poor result for the players. Meyer was brought aboard in 2018 to help negotiate the next CBA, bringing with him his three decades of experience working with the player unions of the NBA, NHL and NFL.
It was generally perceived that the players made some gains with the current CBA that came out of the 2021-22 lockout. The minimum salary went up from $570K to $700K in 2022, and would continue to have annual increases, set to be $740K in the upcoming season. A pre-arbitration bonus pool was created to get more money to younger players. Salaries for arbitration-eligible players, which were previously not guaranteed for any of them, became guaranteed for those that avoided a hearing. A draft lottery was implemented with the hope of disincentivizing tanking.
The competitive balance tax lines also moved up noticeably, with the base threshold going from $210MM in 2021 to $230MM in 2022, further increasing annually with that threshold at $237MM this year. The other two thresholds holds moved up by comparable amounts. Though the current CBA did feature the addition of the fourth line, whereas there had previously only been three.
Harry Marino, meanwhile, led the effort to unionize minor leaguers. The MLBPA eventually became the collective bargaining arm of minor league players, which led to the first ever CBA for minor leaguers. Marino left the MLBPA after that, with Drellich reporting that his relationship with Meyer “soured significantly” during their time working together on that, but Marino appears to have resurfaced as the attempts to push out Meyer and/or Clark have gained momentum.
The exact nature of those disagreements isn’t clear but it seems that the frustrating offseason has brought them back to the surface and divided the players corps. It appears Marino and those in his camp are accusing Clark and Meyer of being too aligned with Boras. This is a charge that has arisen before, with Meyer calling it “absurd” back in 2021.
Drellich points out that Boras was upset when the players accepted the current CBA, believing they should have held out for more, particularly in terms of pushing the CBT. Though he also adds that many other players and agents viewed things from the opposite side. Based on the wording of Marino’s statement above, it appears his argument stems from the accusation that the union focuses too much on the “richest” players to the harm of others.
The MLBPA has an executive board that consists of 72 members and it was reported earlier today that 38 of those are major leaguers and 34 are minor leaguers. This report from Drellich specially mentions Jack Flaherty, Lucas Giolito and Ian Happ as players that are both on the board and also Marino supporters.
How Marino would do things differently to the Clark/Meyer leadership is unclear. Per Drellich, Marino’s supporters have been circulating a PowerPoint presentation consisting of eight slides. The full details of this aren’t clear but it apparently questions some of the MLBPA’s own spending decisions, in addition to the recent CBA negotiations.
Supporters of the Clark/Meyer camp, on the other hand, are pointing to track record. Meyer, as mentioned, has three decades of experience working with player unions in other sports. He has only been with the MLBPA since 2018 but has already gone toe-to-toe with MLB commissioner Rob Manfred and deputy commissioner Dan Halem, enduring a lockout that lasted more than three months and saw the players make some of the aforementioned gains. The Davis situation, though understandably frustrating, was possible with all arbitration-eligible players until this current CBA. While the new deal didn’t close that loop completely, it at least made arbitration salaries guaranteed for those who avoid a hearing. The CBT impacting league spending is also understandably annoying, but those thresholds moved up considerably with this CBA.
Marino, meanwhile, is just 33 years old and has far less on his résumé. Drellich relays that MLB found Meyer difficult to deal with and would be happy to see him go, something his defenders point to as a positive. As Drellich also points out, the league is naturally happy with any discord between the players as it will only help them in negotiating future CBAs.
Per today’s reporting, it seems the outcome is a binary, where the union will either stay the course with Clark/Meyer or make a significant pivot by going with a largely unknown quantity in Marino, a decision that could have ramifications for the players for years to come. The current CBA runs through the 2026 season.
“ Scott Boras is rich because he makes — or used to make — the richest players in the game richer”
Quote of the year lol
“Scott Boras is rich”..The player’s skill is what makes them rich and Scott Boras trails on their coattails, promotes himself and becomes rich too. Excellent quote though.
Players could simply represent themselves in negotiations. Nobody says they have to have Scott Boras or any other agent to negotiate for them.
Brownsbackers
“Players could join with taxpayers and start their own league, profits to taxpayers and players only and cut out owners.”
Cutting out representation of labor is silly, just like eliminating the owners in this monopoly is an unnecessary risk.
The system works. Let the players decide if their representation can pivot or if they prefer new personnel.
Players representing themselves would be hillarious and don’t forget the last agreement the players themselves were demanding/settling for rubbish like salad chef’s in the clubhouse instead of important things.. Like milb salaries, demanding salary floor etc..
Many of the guys attempting to negotiate for “themselves” am pretty sure know nothing about much of anything non playing the game and speaking english causes enough issues for them.
@silver
Perhaps focus on improving your own English skills before attacking the English skills of others.
I am not the one complaining about agents. If the players don’t like the agents, then don’t use them.
The system apparently isn’t working if you keep having all these work stoppages and complaints about everything.
“Wah, we all aren’t getting 10’s of millions of dollars for 15 years!”
Yeah, because none of you are worth that much to begin with, and all of these long term deals have proven to be a problem.
I agree that it would be hilarious. There is a reason why the players have agents.
Language skills was nice way to point out issues with “demands”. Could care less what a handful of wokesters on this and other sites attempt at weak retaliation over major issues.
@silver
Okay, but do you not see the irony in worrying about other people’s English skills when the English you’re using to express this concern is subpar, though?
Why doesn’t one sigle person understand = there already is salary floor. It is the league minimum x 40 players.
Good point, Saber. I hadn’t thought of that before.
Because Saber, when people advocate for a “salary floor” that isn’t what they mean. What they mean is some meaningful level of spending above just fielding a team full of pre-arb players, usually in conjunction with ensuring revenue sharing funds are spent on player payroll expenses.
One could equally argue there is a ‘salary cap’ which would be the sum total of an owner’s assets plus club revenue every year, and yet, the mlbpa categorically rules out any ‘salary cap’ as a nonstarter in negotiations.
It’s because reasonable people know neither limit is what anyone means.
And none of the owners are worth the billions they make either.
That’s where you are wrong.
Right so…Boras must bring value or why do they all use him?
Using the worn out term “Wokesters” is a weak excuse for poor grammar. And the more you post the worse it gets.
“Major issues,” in Silver’s pre-20th Century persepctice, the major issue is simply the existence of a labor union (or a player’s association).
Or perspective*
If you weren’t too dopey to not be able to figure out what he was saying, that’s a you problem. There is a difference, and you are just straining yourself to virtue signal.
OK comrade.
rondon- I love it when people use the term “woke” in a derogatory way because it only exposes that they are close minded, racist bigots.
Woke def.- awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights.
So if one is not woke they are purposefully ignorant, unempathetic, bigots. I prefer to be a decent human being and be “woke” than the alternative.
MannyBeingMVP — And let’s not forget, we’ve all become accustomed to the “M” behind all these salaries as if that was normal. Major League players are being paid MILLIONS. Millions!
So when we are saddened for a player only making $4M a year, how would that kind of money look to us if it were in our pocket for playing a game?
before attacking the English skills of others.
=======================
I have no idea what this means. There are a gazillion players whose first language is Spanish, Japanese, Korean, maybe Portuguese, and maybe elsewhere.
Are you saying that they are all fluent or that all of them should be fluent?
I think a deadline to sign free agents would help this mess. Free agents can start signing anytime after the world series ends but the top 20 free agents as picked by some site maybe this one or MLB have to be signed by by Dec 15th next 20 by Jan 15th and rest by Feb 1st. Some agents (Boras) will cry about it but it needs to happen because of his tactics.
I’m not saying it because Manfred wants it as well but because it is needed
@sid
What about my comment was “virtue signal(ing)”? Explain. And even if you agree with his point, do you not find it rich that maybe he shouldn’t be the one making it?
@joe
My post had nothing to do with the fluency of the players, so I am not sure what you are going on about. My post was pointing out that if @joesilver wants to criticize players who aren’t fluent in English, perhaps he should focus on improving his own English proficiency first.
Did that answer your question? I didn’t think my post was that difficult to follow, especially when I referenced @joesilver in my post to make it easier to see whom I was responding to.
Why are you quoting something I never said and then replying to me with a rebuttal. Go take this up with somebody else.
I don’t care how you choose to redefine words. I don’t consider myself “woke,” and that doesn’t make me any of the things you label as such. If you think people that don’t act and think exactly like you do are less than you are, then you are the one that is not being inclusive, accepting, or tolerant. That doesn’t make you a decent human being, that makes you a narcissist.
You’re absolutely right. I’m not tolerant, accepting and inclusive when comes to racists and bigots. If that makes me a narcissist then great, I’m a narcissist.
As far as redefining words go, what I stated is the definition of the word woke as it is being used here. You don’t have to consider yourself anything but facts are facts, the opposite of being woke is being a racist and bigot.
@grnmtnyeti..”Woke” are just the msm brainwashed, self righteous people that spout whatever messaging corporate Hollywood & MSM are pushing and promoting at the time.
@mlb
Your comment sounds like somebody typed “write me an angry comment on the internet about the word ‘woke'” into ChatGPT.
@mlbfan- that’s exactly what the far right media wants you to regurgitate. They’ve twisted the meaning of it to suit their agenda of polarizing the population and you’ve bought right into it. Congratulations…
Scott Boras is a household name in baseball for a reason. This hasn’t been a good offseason for him, but I think that’s less about him, and more about a perfect storm of issues with the 3 big names that are causing all the noise. Not only did the TV deal issues play a role, but think about the 3 players here – they all come with their question marks, but all coming off banner years.
Snell had a great season, but walks batters at an alarming rate and has been inconsistent year to year.
Bellinger had his first good season in 4 years, and the metrics didn’t back up the output, putting future production in question.
Montgomery had been a solid starter for a while, but prior to last year, he was viewed more as a middle of the rotation guy. He had a great year and even better postseason, and was looking to be paid like an ace.
I don’t think Boras did a poor job, even though people will say Snell was offered a big deal from the Yankees, as Snell had made it known he preferred to stay on the west coast.
I think Boras is a very greedy agent, and rightfully so. His job is to find the best situation for his clients, and players hire him because he’s the best at getting top dollar. If players simply wanted to get paid decent money and play a certain place, they probably wouldn’t prioritize hiring Boras.
I’ll come back full circle here – Boras is a household name in baseball bc he’s great at what he does.. how many other MLB player agents can you name?
@Ryan sir, this is an internet comments section. Please take your nuanced and thoughtful takes outside lol.
Ryan
This is all about Boras. He tries to utilize childish tactics to put pressure on teams to sign his clients for way over market value norms. He has clogged up the market for most of the off season refusing to budge until he gets what he wants. Teams can’t move on until the money they have allocated for his player signs and that stops most lesser players from signing as well. He completely bypasses GM’s and front offices and only deals with the owners which alienates and pisses off teams staffs and on top of that he will publicly berate teams to try to get them in on bidding to use them. These and many other things he does are dck moves and they are finally catching up to him now. Good on the players. Boras is a clown.and the circus is leaving town.
A player with preferences should hire someone other than Boras. His style requires a client to take the highest bid, not the highest bid from where you like.
If you have a preference (i.e. Snell and Montgomery) owners will know and the big markets will not be used to just up the bid for you to get the home you want.
The Labor Theory of Value is a completely flawed axiom, even when applied to baseball.
The price somebody pays you is what they think you are worth. If you demand more than that, well, you have to either convince them you are worth that much, or move on to try to convince somebody else of that fact.
The thing with baseball is all of the contract is fully guaranteed. Those players will get that money, no matter if they don’t even play a single game of that contract due t some kind of injury. Or if they suddenly plummet in production. The team is not guaranteed the same amount of production for the price they are paying.
Teams have found out that this risk isn’t worth it. Players are now starting to find this out as well. If you are 34 and having a mediocre season into free agency, even if you were a pretty good player before that, you’re not getting a long term big money deal.
If you are a guy that performs very well when on the field, but you haven’t been able to stay on the field for the entire season for the past 3 years, guess what? Nobody is paying you crazy money.
I think you’re right that teams are less and less willing to take long term risk on ageing players. But a big problem with the current structure is that free agency is delayed to a point where most players are either into the beginning of their decline years by the time they get there or (as you point out) it’s foreseeable that their production will decline soon. So “the market” won’t bear what they hope to get in free agency. Fair enough, but it’s also crucial to recognise that the players’ access to “the market” is severely restricted until most of them are getting pretty old. In essence, that’s why the system is creaking.
Owners in bigger markets sign bigger names because it drives greater revenue. The contracts for free agent signings are fully guaranteed, but owners get below market players for years at the front end of their careers. And if a young player get hurt, then teams can dump them. I am not speaking of Boras, who clearly misjudged the market on behalf of his clients. Just that I don’t mind players trying to get the best deal for themselves, which could be just money but sometimes has other considerations beyond compensation.
No, the price you are paid is what the market will bear, not what you are “worth,” whatever that means. It doesn’t matter how well you perform if customers (fans) want to watch you do it.
@MLB and just where did you go to law school??
When Boras graduated law school the average MLB salary was $240k, it is now $4.5M. Id say his represantation has helped the exponential growth in MLB salaries. There are 780 active roster spots and Boras Corp represents about 175 players(22%). He seems to be doing something right and MLB players sure don’t seem to have an issue being represented by his company.
The short term deals are risky for the players. But using probability it’ll probably make Boras richer if some work out even if some don’t. I can explain further if anyone would like.
Please no. Ahahaha!
MLBPA quote of the 21st century if you ask me lol.
Fantastic quote!lol
honestly i wouldn’t be surprised if this coup d’état is contrived by Manfred and MLB owners against Boras. Wouldn’t be surprised if Marino is just the owners dream lap dog they want to have running the MLBPA.
If you look in detail at the aggressive way Marino attacked MLB and won recognition for minor leaguers after more than a century of them being on the outside, I don’t think anyone in MKB will regard him as a soft touch.
Wait until you see what Soto gets next winter,
I think he’s gonna be disappointed.
Boras with all his remaining free agents and some of the short pay contracts he has struggled making payments to his butcher for his weekly Kielbasa deliveries
He is upset
Hope Gunnar and Jackson drop him so the Os have a shot at extending them
I can’t see Gunnar leaving
It is almost like…..baseball is a business or something.
Wow, many teams are realizing it isn’t spend wise to dump high end, lucrative deals on upper aged talent with questionable track records. Or that current economic situations might influence the market.
There is a finite amount of resources, and if ball players want to keep crying that their 10’s of millions to play a game aren’t enough, they will price themselves out of the market. Nobody will be able to afford them.
That’s just it… the owners ARE still spending. Look, I’m no owner apologist; in fact, I’m not in favor of a cap because I advocate that the market will eventually self-correct (which we are seeing). But, for the MLBPA/Scott Boras to pretend this is some huge spending issue by owners is intellectual dishonesty on their part.
The fact is that the players that he represents in this class (Chapman, JDM, Snell, Monty, & whomever else) all come with mitigating issues, beginning with age.
To me it’s like their argument is: “The owners have been dumb enough to pay top price for everyone Boras represents in the past, it’s not fair they won’t do it now.” The owners simply didn’t cave to Boras and his clients in this one…. Sometimes they do. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t. The reality is Boras probably would’ve received what he asked if not for the CBT, which is one of its intended purposes.
It’s not coincidental that the LAD don’t deal with Boras clients, yet they still spend at the top of the market and get some of the best players.
As Boras so famously said, you’re not late to dinner if you’re the steak. Well, this is not a bunch of Grade A cuts.
Yankee Clipper – couldn’t have said it better.
Owners have to pay some players, or else they’re just keeping all the profits. You can find flaws with any individual player. This is a highly artificial economic system, and the numbers don’t make sense to those outside it because it is, genuinely, weird. Basically, you have a pot of revenue — something like $10b — that has to be divided. You have some costs of doing business, like stadiums, front offices, marketing, central MLB expenses, minor leaguers, taxes. But that, generously, amounts to half the revenue or a bit more. The rest is divided — and here’s the weird part — among less than 1,000 people (30 owners and the MLB players), and they are not fluid (there aren’t a thousand J.D. Davis’ out there you can just reach out and grab, just a few.) You can do the math.
This is not a question of a normal market. Of supply and demand and optimal prices. It’s simply a question of who gets how much of the pie. It’s a zero sum battle and in the past, some players have essentially allied with owners, and some owners allied with other players. All to the benefit of owners. That may be now changing.
Semaholic do some historical research. Owners are a big reason why we have baseball today.
And your division is way off. You have employees who need to be paid for the work they do. From PR to Groundscrew to Trainers and Doctors, just to name a few. The number of employees of all MLB teams AND the minor league affiliate employees paid by MLB teams (director of ops, GM etc). They all add up.
Jets, Jet Fuel, Hangers for the Jets, Pilots for the Jets, Hotel Rooms, Travel from Airports To Hotels, ect…ect! Baseballs, how many does a Team go through per year? Spring Training Camps/Grounds/Ball Parks! Radio Announcers!
And don’t forget, Payoffs to State & Local Politicians for Stadium & surrounding area Deals!
YC, MLB revenue rose in 2023. Player salaries overall did not.
Snell, Bellinger, and Chapman got paid. Bellinger and Snell got 2024 salaries far above what they were expected to get if they signed long term deals. Chapman got a 2024 salary that was almost exactly what he was expected to get. The question marks for both the players and the TV revenue for the teams are both partially responsible for them not getting long term deals, but not wholly.
None of them are likely to drop Boras as their agent. In fact, 2 of the 3 have now praised him after signing their newest deals.
The argument is that the owners used the TV deal issue, one that did not cost any team overall revenue in 2023 and wont in 2024. as an excuse to cut spending across the board.
The owners are trying to say, “but look at record contracts for Ohtani and Yamamoto” to try to defend a complete lack of spending by almost every other team. The fact is that outside of Ohtani and Yamamoto, average player salary went down in 2024 and even Montgomery and Martinez signing for more than we expected cannot change that. If they took the owners to court the union would have a pretty good case for collusion.
The Dodgers had Boras clients last season and have them this season.
I agree with your points, WebSoul. I wasn’t implying owners were spending more money than they historically have. I was talking more about how players that would, more often than not, be in tier 2 or 3 for whatever reason (one-way, age, injury history, or whatever) are trying to hold out for tier 1 money. Owners are just not paying it this time, and I believe this will be the new normal league-wide.
As far as the Boras clients, LAD have not secured a high-profile Boras client on a typical Boras signing since…. Well, I honestly don’t remember when. But, it’s been a long, long time. For a big market team, they are underrepresented with Boras clients, imo.
The Pirates/Marlins/A’s/Rays ownership groups appreciate your guerilla marketing efforts, but please incorporate the terms “invisible hand of the free market” and “passing costs to consumers” more in your rhetoric. Studies show they strongly appeal to several key demographics.
Case: You’re correct, those teams only hurt ownership’s plight. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game by handling their teams the way they do. And Oakland…they’re on a completely different basement level. Easily the worst, with Bob Nutting not far behind.
Rays have a ballpark location problem. Your studies did not take you far enough.
Ohtani’s agent got him $700,000,000 and we don’t even remember his name; what does that tell you about the mercurial, bombastic self promoting Scott Boras?
How many remember Ohtani came to north america EARLY and worked for minimum mlb salary, confident in himself to earn a big contract when the time came.
No one remembers that because it isn’t true. His contract with the Angels paid him $42m guaranteed. He backloaded it, sure, but that hardly means he was taking ANY risk that he wouldn’t get his $42mz He makes far more than his baseball salary In endorsement deals, too.
@seam
you are wrong. go look up the stories regarding his signing. mlb publicly stated “no back door deals”
2018 Los Angeles Angels $545,000 0.000
2019 24 Los Angeles Angels $650,000 1.000 contract
2021 26 Los Angeles Angels $3,000,000 3.000 contract
2022 27 Los Angeles Angels $5,500,000 4.000 contract
This is simply a false narrative, or if you prefer a highly slanted take that omits all the key information. Ohtani’s value economically was enormous regardless of the fact that he was technically still subject to international signing rules when he signed with the Angels. He was guaranteed to make FAR more than $650k in 2019, and did. And he made far more in the long run than if he had waited in Japan until he could become a true free agent (and risk injury, of course). There was no risk for him, at all. He did not “bet on himself”. Ohtani was and is a unicorn and can make moves like that without any financial downside (he just did it again, in fact, to avoid tax). There is no virtue or modesty involved, although his fans love to pretend there is.
Ohtani made $0.75 million in endorsement deals his final season in the NPB. He made $6 million his first full year in MLB. In 2020, he turned 25 in July of that season, he made $16 million in endorsement deals, money he would not have made if he was still playing in Japan. Staying in Japan 3 more years until he was 25 would have cost him tens of millions.
In 2022 he made $22 million in endorsement deals. If that was just his 2nd in the US, would he be making that much on those deals? I doubt it. He is estimated to be making $35 million in endorsement money this season which is why he can afford to defer his salary from the Dodgers. Would he be making that if he had just come to MLB in 2021?
Not sure he would have gotten the huge deal with an MLB team that everyone tries to say he would have in MLB if he chose to stay in Japan until he turned 25 and had been injured in Japan like he has been in MLB.
That picture MLBTR used of Boras looking like he’s lurking in the shadows is awesome
Does Boras have hair of three different unnatural colors? What is he using up there, Spider Tack?
The hair color of Scott Boras is like the foliage during the fall in the northeast
I don’t understand the Davis hoopla. Teams could always release arb players during spring training, and from what I understand about the new CBA, they still can and pay a percent of the amount owed. The player is then a FA and can sign elsewhere.
Isn’t that exactly what the Giants did? Why is this such an issue?
After months of meticulous negotiations by their highly paid expert counsel and then agreeing to said K….the classic TLDR the K complaint.
Is that related to the que complaint?
You know they did trade for somebody else that they view as better and plays the same position, right?
The signed Chapman. They did not “trade” for him.
“Why is this such an issue?”
============================
It seems pretty unfair that, if a team does not get the player at the salary they want after going to an arbitration hearing, they can release the player and only pay a fraction of the salary. The player is only guaranteed his full salary if he avoids arbitration and doesn’t fight for what he thinks he is worth. This all favors the owners and I can understand the players being unhappy with it. After seeing this, can the players really have confidence that Clark and Meyer have their backs in negotiations?
Suit – I can’t disagree with you more strenuously on this one.
Step back for a second and try to look at it detached without emotion.
The whole arbitration process requires a team to decide to tender a contract to a player in what amounts to a blank check scenario. SOME arb filings are only a couple hundred thousand apart, but SOME are MILLIONS apart.
If you’re the Yankees, dodgers, or red sox that doesn’t matter. But, if you’re the Rays for example, how can you deal with that uncertainty?
If we say that teams can’t cut a guy after an arbiter sets a salary, without it being fully guaranteed, you’re saying the team gets ZERO say in whether a players salary is affordable or worth it to them or not.
The answer isn’t in making a contract tender revocable either. Another problem is, arb filings are made blind without knowledge of what the other party is coming in at, while at the same time, the arbiter has to pick between values, not set their own value.
One thing the Davis situation also showed us is that it’s entirely possible that the award leads to an untradeable contract/player as well. If any team was interested in him even for a lottery ticket prospect in exchange for Davis plus 30 days’ worth of salary relief he would’ve been traded instead of released. But he was released. Meaning not one team wanted to trade for that player and contract with that amount of salary relief.
So what’s the answer, really? I think the current iteration is the fair middle ground – if a team signs a free agent, they name the price they’re willing to pay and should be stuck with it – and they are. If a team renews a contract for pre-arb guys, they name the price and are stuck with it. If a team settles with an arb eligible player, it was a number they chose and thus should’ve been comfortable with and are stuck with it.
BUT, when it’s a third party dictating what you have to pay someone, you SHOULD have a way to get out of it without being on the hook for that amount, shouldn’t you?
In our lives, if I said you’re going to go grocery shopping, you need to commit to what you will buy in your shopping basket (the tender), and then you and the grocer each blindly file what you think you should pay for items, and, I will decide whose value you MUST pay, regardless of how you can afford it or feel its worth, would you think that’s fair? I doubt it if you’re being honest.
LOL. You’re just putting on ownership sunglasses rather than player ones. There is no team situation — even the Rays — in which the difference in an arbitration dispute is enough that the team cannot pay it. The big margins only happen in the final year of arbitration (when the numbers are highest) and the Rays will have long since traded the dude by then. If you cannot afford to pay a guy what he might win in arbitration, the current system has always meant you have to trade or nontender him, NOT cut him if you lose arbitration, which happens so late in the off-season he will have few choices on where to sign. This is literally the only non-guaranteed arrangement in all of professional baseball. It’s just a loophole, and it needs to go away (in addition to VASTLY more revenue sharing so teams like the Rays can keep dudes rather than constantly churning.
And of course, I don’t need to point out that in Davis’ case, the Giants ability to pay him his full salary is hardly in question, so your whole point is beside the point.
GA: You make great points. I still don’t like the current set up as I think it discourages players from going to an arbitration hearing.
Think the main issue is “retaliation”
Say player A wins arbitration. It’s higher than Team B wanted to pay so they release him and only pay what 30 days pay? A months worth? Saving the team say 5-6 mill.
So if teams lose arbitrations they could just cut guys on fringe rosters, save the cash, and call up or sign someone cheaper than arb costs.
Kind of a broken system where player wins arbitration and only gets 30 days pay if they’re released after the process. Definitely exploitable
Only if said player is not worth that much cash or more. If no other team needs or wants him at said cost, then said player was over paid.
Doesn’t mean that at all
An individual arbiter ruled said player was worth what the player said they were worth. Hence why the player won arbitration and the team did not.
The other problem with your interpretation is cutting a player after free agency happened, after winter meetings happened, and a few weeks before the season begins it drastically affects said players market compared to had they been cut at the arbitration deadline months ago.
They were looking to trade him. Nobody wanted him, so they cut him. Move along.
Easy – first off, the problem with one arbiter deciding ‘worth’ is that so many people value different skill sets differently, to the point where who wins and who loses depends in some part upon which arbiter is deciding a case. Same reason why every GM doesn’t bid an identical contract offer to every free agent.
Second, it’s not that the player was ‘worth’ what he asked, or what the team offered. Arbiters are bound to only choose one of the two values, with no opportunity to deviate from those. So, some are forced to choose whatever that one individual’s subjective opinion leads them to think is some version of the closer value, or, perhaps that one value was too unrealistic. But not that it’s the actual value of the player.
Looking to trade him……,during spring training 2 weeks away from regular season.
Proved my point for me. Timing affects players markets.
It isn’t their fault that obtaining his replacement took the time that it did. Maybe you should encourage players to take deals more quickly so their fellow players can hit the market at “the right time” according to what you think.
Yes, I proved something alright, but not what you think.
“Players are greedy take less money!”
Ok owners lap dog. That type of thinking is how you you get teams penny pinching refusing to put product on the field for fans.
The whole point of arbitration is the arbitrator determines what he’s “worth.”
Easy
And Boras delay tactics. If this happened earlier in the off season there would have been more teams with money to spend. I’m ok with a team being able to release the player as the team might have thought 6.5 Mil was too much for Davis.
I’m fine with releasing a player which is why we have an arbitration deadline to decide if you want to keep them or release them. That was back in January. Should be sooner tbh.
Giants should have released him back then
Not during spring training with 2 weeks to go before season begins.
They can release him whenever they feel like it.
They didn’t want him for the price he was about to get, they hired his replacement which took time to negotiate, and they put him on the trading block and…..nobody else wanted him for the price tag either. So, since they didn’t need him, they released him.
That’s the life of a pro player. Don’t like it, do another job.
So team prevented him from negotiating with other teams during peak free agency
Signs his replacement cuts him and doesn’t adhere to the ruling of the arbitration process and cuts him after free agency has passed and teams roster are mostly set.
And you think that’s ok in a moral sense? Yup explains why you’re a browns fan. I’m sure you were happy they traded for massage Watson too.
Just cause you’re within your right doesn’t mean that’s how you should treat players.
Easy, thays a nice narrative spin, but, can you honestly claim with certainty that the club wasn’t hoping to use Davis as trade fodder to upgrade elsewhere in the roster during the course of the offseason?
Let’s look at the timeline. Until February 8th, nobody knew what Davis was going to earn. That’s when his award was announced. So, the idea about the ‘peak free agency’ doesn’t fly. One risk of arbitration proceedings cuts both ways- teams can attack a player, and, players can attack a team, and, that can damage a relationship.
We don’t know what was said in the hearing, but, it led the Giants to decide to move on.
You don’t cut your rostered player and leave an opening before getting a replacement, or, your leverage goes down. Even more so when negotiating with this particular replacement’s representative.
Easy as 1 2 3
Yeah I guess teams should have a short window soon after the ruling to decide and not drag it out through the free agent period.
When was the last time you can remember a team doing it tho? It’s been some time.
Because he won his arbitration hearing case and then was let go. This is connected to what is fundamentally wrong with baseball contract/roster construction right now. For years teams paid players when they reached free agency, often “overpaying” them for past production and getting reduced production in the future. So teams have mostly stopped doing this–which is fine and smart. The problem now is because teams have team control for 6 years of a player and only have to pay them the min. and then eventually go through arbitration, a good portion of players are underpaid during this time and once they reach free agency teams are no longer (rightfully) paying for past performance. The only players that are getting paid market value right now are the super stars and thus the league has become top heavy. Elites at the top and young every where else. The veteran journeyman, good but not great player have continued to be squeezed out of the game. This isn’t tenable as constructed.
Teams will have to give up some team control to correct for this and I think the player’s union is finally realizing the only way to achieve that is a long and hard battle and right now they’re trying to figure out who should lead that battle.
“Because he won his arbitration hearing case and then was let go.”
Yes, but the Giants did it within the rules of the CBA, which the players agreed to, I agree the current economics of baseball need to be adjusted, but it also seems wrong to agree to rules and then complain about those same rules.
Should younger players be paid more? Yes, I think they should.
And maybe the next CBA should have a clause that arbitration hearings are binding and guaranteed once the arbitrator makes their decision – which would encourage teams and players to reach deals before reaching that point.
Also, after passing through waivers, Davis is now a free agent and can sign with any team. You could argue that they did him a favor by granting free agency sooner, which is something players have been asking for, unless teams won’t sign him to as high of a salary as he had in arbitration, in which case the Giants were kind of right to also not pay him and let him go.
You asked. I answered. I didn’t say it wasn’t within the rules of the CBA. Stuff happens all that time that is officially agreed upon in the CBA that makes the players upset. The real underlying issue is what I discussed. I wish the players had been able to gain more ground on this issue but with the reaction from covid and the timing of it all, they couldn’t stand their ground like they should have. There is a huge fight coming over this issue. The REAL issue is team control. The players will complain about arbitration, (Davis), Boras, slow off-season, etc but the bottom line is players need to be paid earlier in their career so their pay matches their production. That’s it. Right now they’re getting screwed from both sides (unless you’re a super star).
RodBecksBurnerAccount
Yes that’s true. I can’t figure out which side I’m on the team or the players. I would like to see the teams have control for 1 year less but the team is spending a huge amount of money investing in the players to help make them into a great player. Teams have 1 or 2 players make it to the majors every season if they are lucky out of the 30 or 40 players they draft. The players are a huge part of this entertainment business and deserve to get compensated for it and they are. I can’t go into the corporation I work for front office and demand a larger portion of their profits regardless if I feel I’m worth it and I don’t think I should be able to. I can ask for a raise. It’s up to the team to treat their employees fairly and make them feel valued so the employee doesn’t leave when they are able to. If I’m under contract I can’t leave just like the players can’t but at the end of that contract I can take my experience elsewhere. Right now I’m of the opinion that the way things are in baseball with the control teams have is fine. Some good players are starting playing at 19 or 20 and will reach free agency at a young age which is great. Most players don’t get in to the league until they are 23 or 24 which is getting them free agency at a later age. The younger players that are really good are getting some more compensation from the pre-arbitration performance bonus program. There will always be some tweaking around the edges but I think most of it is good.
And if they are high draft picks, they are getting millions of dollars just to sign on before they even play a minor league game. I am not about to cry for these people that make more in a month than most people do all year, even the mediocre MLB players are making millions. For a game.
A Big Neon Glitter!
A Big Neon Glitter Oh Yeah!
Two Words “Clean House”!
i want meyer and an outsider thats a shark…..someone that mlb owners absolutely would hate.
Someone like the GOAT Marvin Miller!
This all smells like another lockout/strike coming.
What none of these players union people are talking about is the tv uncertainty. This has a lot of teams in the league questioning spending on long term contracts.
Until there is stability in the tv deals there will be less spending for a lot of teams. I could see the teams revenue decreasing in the coming years.
“Smells like another lockout/strike”….Keep in mind that MLB aren’t the only ones affected by changing TV habits. Comcast/Xfinity has lost close to 15,000,000+ customers in the last 5+ years due to millions of people “cutting the cord”. Disney/ESPN has laid off tens of thousands of workers in roughly the same period. It was only a matter of time before this trend affected the RSNs that MLB has long relied upon to distribute their product.
The MLBPA doesn’t want to mention the RSN fiasco and neither does the large markets boy in the commissioners office.
That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Bringing in a negotiator from the other leagues seems like a bad move. The MLBPA is the most powerful union on pro sports, but they’ve taken steps backward in the last two CBA’s.
True they have the best deal. But the NBA dynamic is weird. Adam Silver is LeBron’s lap dog. If LeBron says jump he doesn’t ask how high he jumps as high as he can. It’s weird to see the Commissioner that works for the owners, make decisions that will hurt the teams because a player wants you to.
but they’ve taken steps backward in the last two CBA’s.
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The previous contract was a laugh-fest. How the players voted for that is their own fault. I laughed as soon as I saw it, and it was even worst than I imagined.
But the current contract seems very reasonable, with the players getting back at least some of what they had previously lost.
It’s almost like the players are realizing that all the money is getting soaked up by the best 2 or 3 players on each team and there isn’t any left for the middle tier MLB caliber guy.
The NBA has “max” deals for players based on years of service and even kickers for (gasp) staying with the same team. MLBPA insists on teams getting bilked over and over on these decades long retirement contracts players sign. Once you run out of owners willing to sign 10 or 15 year player contracts then what?
The Union refuses to even discuss a salary cap, even though they could probably leverage that into a spending minimum to go with it. Again a win for lesser players but a loss for the superstars so the MLBPA won’t even consider it.
How about implementing “max contracts” in exchange for reducing the team control period down to 4 or 5 years. This gets more guys to free agency sooner and leaves some actual money for them to get paid.
Difference is it’s easier to just replace a vet with a young player. It’s more difficult to do in the nba as the drop off is usually more significant. There are a lot more options in baseball because of all the players in the minor leagues.
Also I don’t see the players agreeing to max deals. They want everything from no tax or cap to 4-5 years until free agents.
There are also way more spots to fill on an MLB team. Teams need 20-30 pitchers a year these days.
The NBA also has the player salary percentage of revenue already negotiated. There is no claiming the owners are hoarding the money.
The MLBPA sucks, they create this sky is the limit money scenario for the top stars (and their agents) but everyone else is starving.
There’s a lot more money than the owners are claiming.
Of all businesses in the US, total wages & benefits accounts for only 25% of their spending. MLB teams, however, spend ~50% on player income & benefits. Of course there is a ton more money. But if players are getting shafted in this scenario, all of the rest of us (including you complaining on the behalf of Major League players) are getting double shafted.
You have no idea the percentages. Owners don’t open their books. So I call BS.
OMG enough with blaming the owners already.
Of all businesses in the US, total wages & benefits accounts for only 25% of their spending.
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You need more context. A service organization will spend for more on labor than a manufacturing.
Not blaming. Sorry if the truth bothers you.
Truth? When did you see the books? Are you expecting any business not to run expecting a profit? Do you expect 20 or so of 30 teams to operate at a loss?
You are ASSUMING and you know what happens when you assume.
Right. Since it’s not possible to link here, therefore, there must be no evidence. Therefore made up.
The percentage of MLB revenues that are spent on player pay is publicly available information. This was collectively bargained. & the 25-30% number is cited by the BLS.
How many 5 paragraph essays do you read in comments sections? All of them?
@Yeti, 50% of NBA revenue goes to players and 48% of NFL revenue. The reason these figures are so high is that the players have a very rare elite skillset, without their sports don’t exist.
A lot of people blindly follow whatever the union says. Wasting your time trying to get them to see the full scope.
Players union should start working on laying the groundwork on the new deal and what they want for next go around now maybe request to remove a year of arbitration so that free agents can get better contracts while conceding something
anytime an Agent has his own guy calling the shots or influencing an entire Union to play along with the strategy for a few of his own clients….there’s something wrong. .
Owner’s collusion? The owners had every right to push back against that. Agent’s should STAY out of the affairs of any Union.
Too many people lose when Boras is allowed to influence things.
@Craviduce Boras Corp represents roughly 175 players, that’s a bit more than a few.
And yet still a fraction of the league
A large fraction.
@Yay there are 720 active 175 would be 22% yes that qualifies as a fraction but in no way is it a few.
Minimum salaries should be $1 million and the league needs to expand.
The union shouldn’t have agreed to the organizational roster shrinking.
There are too many average to below average players on teams already. There are too many teams already, more will make it even worse. Plus, too many teams in playoffs & it goes to long into the Fall Season. Get back to win division or go home.
Please it’s the opposite. It’s spring training and guys like Lorenzen, JD Martinez, etc should have major league gigs.
Once they did the greedy money grab of expanded playoffs, they needed to expand to compensate.
“Deserve’s got nothing to do with it.”
Nobody has a right to play baseball. JD Martinez is an extremely limited player that has no defensive value at all, and is only valuable for his bat. His bat has been lagging a bit as he gets older, and he’s only getting older. The market for a declining all bat, no glove player is not what it used to be.
Of course, we don’t know what kind of deals guys like Lorenzen, JD Martinez, etc received and turned down because they wanted more money, more years, or just didn’t want to go to that team among any other excuse to wish to fabricate either.
Maybe, and id deem it’s pretty likely, they already could’ve had major league gigs
don’t be naive. the guy had an ops of 900 last year and put up over 20$MM in value. MLB is colluding to get these guys out and go younger because they don;t have to pay anyone for the first 6 years of their career. Its all about money…not about winning.
Just because some site says you might be worth a certain amount, doesn’t mean that is what you are worth. That was last year. You don’t pay for past performance, but for what you think you’re going to get.
Do I want to blow $10+ million on a 34-35 year old DH only that may not hit well, or put that money on 2-3 versatile players that may produce at a similar level?
You’re right, it is about money. And it is about making smart investments with your money. If you had a billion dolllars, does that mean you have to spend all of it on a risky business venture that doesn’t have solid background behind it or a good business model going forward?
It is easy to play with other peoples’ money.
By most major offensive categories JD Martinez is above average to all star level. Every team has a DH now, he should have a job. Period.
MLB would’ve expanded already if they weren’t interested in using Nashville and Salt Lake as bargaining chips to extract more tax payer funds. MLB should have 4 more teams and we’ve gone the longest since expansion since the modern era began.
You guys can set up strawman arguments based on your opinion but you can’t argue with Jordan Montgomery and JD being ML quality players. Even Clevinger, Lorenzen, JD Davis being released, Duvall and others signing late in ST. The amount of evidence in favor of expanding is overwhelming.
It’s all about billionaires stealing from tax payers and you’re a fool if you think differently
San Francisco offered him a job and he didn’t want it. So there is that.
MLB is colluding to get these guys out
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The entire league is colluding to keep two players out?
Why? The net pay of those two guys is less than 1% of the total salary.
Name one Team that Needs J.D.!
Lifting minimum wage solves nothing. If you put a max wage of, say $25-mil, now you could properly assess the market value while maintaining cap figures where they currently are.
So suspicious this was an MLB inspired result. Universal ignoring of his high profile clients, teams diligently calling out his social media lies, teams criticising his delay tactics. It’s been a non stop erosion on player confidence.
Brilliantly executed if it was.
Brilliantly executed if it was.
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The beauty of it is that no one really knows.. My guess is that Manfred as no involvement, but then will deny involvement just so people will speculate that he does have involvement.
100% this was contrived by MLB….they want a puppet in there which they have with clark but not with meyer..
Son: Dad can I have a raise in my allowance?
Dad: No my company is now making less money and I can’t give you a raise in your allowance.
Son: that sounds like a you problem, give me my raise.
@James except they are not making less $
statista.com/statistics/265990/average-revenue-per…
Many notable free agents remained unsigned into Spring Training a
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This is what I dislike about the writing here. I think a more honest assessment would have been “Boras clients have an issue”
The number of non-Boras FAs that are unsigned is low and of less quality.
I can make the argument that Boras represents little to no “less quality” FAs.
Yeah, so it comes down to Boras clients, and guys scurrying for one-year contracts. I’m not sure this is any different than most years. It’s almost like a rite of spring to hear about xx% of FAs unsigned, only to discover that half those guys won’t even get contracts.
Being an agent can be rough right now. Just ask the National Association of Realtors. Settlements by the largest companies in the millions. I’m not one & let me make this perfectly clear. I love them! They have all the good listings. Anyway folks…. The game has changed. Lawsuits, Lawsuits & even more are on the way. Just like Boras will see coming his way. As an agent advising one’s clients is easy when everything goes right. Now when they don’t? Things get exciting! More lawsuits. That’s what lawyers want. Maybe ol Boras has another plan. Be very careful with dealing w/ sharks. They bite like a mofo & minnows don’t stand a chance. Stay on shore & you never have to deal w/ what’s in the water. That being said. It is quite simple. If an agent says…. I can get you more & does not perform & it’s in writing. Omg! Jackpot!!! Ca Ching! If it’s verbal? Not enforceable in the court of law. Unless…. This pattern is a constant & multiple parties are accusing you of harm financially. The funny thing is… I don’t hear one player complaining. Not even Gary Sheffield which is amazing! He’s always bitching about something. Which reminds me. Isn’t his wife a Realtor. Stop complaining about 2004 moron! You lost to the Red Sox after winning the first 3 games. Then got swept. Sheesh! Go Red Sox!
“Scott Boras is rich because he makes — or used to make — the richest players in the game richer”
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That was unnecessarily hostile. And fighting Clark, Meyer AND Boras is just too big a fight. There will be a number of other agents who will side with Boras.
We don’t know the backstory. His hostility may be warranted.
It could be warranted, but publicly fighting with the top agent in the game seems risky. What are the other agents going to think?
You two guys should read the two Athletics article.
The other agents are pissed and want any Boras influence out.
“The other agents”…The “Boras effect” only helps the top 5% of players and virtually ignores the needs of 95% of the MLBPA members. Having an agent control the MLBPA is a complete conflict of interest among other things.
@MLB Boras Corporation represents 175 players. The employees they represent is much more than 5% in itself. And the benefit of the contracts they negotiate help bolster all other contracts.
And no agents who represent players do not have a conflict of interest with the MLBPA. They are both out for what is best for the players. A conflict of interest would be someone with the Owners best interest in mind having any sway on the MLBPA.
Ok this is going to sound super weird and out of left field but for a brief second I thought the headline picture was Neelix from Star Trek Voyager.
You know what HE DOES kinda look like Neelix. The expression looks like he ate some of his own food and is pissed that Kes is gone.
So Bora$$ 4 not getting the money many thought they would? Too bad. The two pitchers are 31 and most players predictably decline at age 33. Teams might be willing to pay for some decline years if they get 4-5 years of prime performance, but not for 2. Plus there are some issues in the advance metrics of both that point to a potential decline. There are also issues with Bellinger and Chapman metrics, past performance, etc that points to teams not willing to take long term risks with both.
The top talent will always get paid. But teams are using analytics to make wiser talent decisions. So those in the next tier may face issues getting that long term contract they all want, especially when the analytics suggest reason for concern. And for those further down the pecking order, well we have seen them go wanting for jobs for a few seasons now. Their marginal production over a young controllable player isn’t enough to justify the additional cost.
The other factor is the fact that a small amount teams can really spend and the rest of the teams just can’t even come close to matching that. So more and more teams are focusing on internal talent development in an attempt to build competitive teams. That also squeezes the lower level free agents.
Promulgation baby!
Boras, Other Agents, attorneys’ credo…..”find a bad precedent and make it worse’. Bad bad bad
“The minimum salary went up from $570K to $700K in 2022, and would continue to have annual increases, set to be $740K in the upcoming season. ”
ROFLOL!
How many contracts are there for over $300 million? The Padres have two and almost three.
The minimum salary should be at least two million dollars.
I remember the last negotiations and as I recall 8 of the 12 player reps on the players’ executive committee – those most closely involved with the week to week negotiations with MLB on this CBA – voted 8-4 not to accept the last CBA proposal due to serious issues they thought were poorly addressed or were too far weighted in the owners favor. When presented to the full slate of player reps, the vote was 26-12 to accept the agreement and it was over. I know, I know, there was a lockout and players were worried about a late start to the season and lost wages so they blinked. They closed their eyes and said to themselves this is the best we can do. Now some few years later they’re all bitching about issues that could have been more fully addressed the last time. They folded to the owner’s and now they want to cry about the unfairness of the whole thing. They should be blaming their elected player reps who accepted the agreement. I’m in favor of the players about the CBA but they didn’t have the backbone to stand up to the owners long enough last time. Now they want to blame the officials running their Union and won’t accept their own culpability in the whole matter. Too bad, so sad. Next time hold out and play half or no season if that’s what it takes to get your demands met. I’m just saying…
You may be right, but I saw the 26-12 vote as a rejection of Boras who was against accepting the last CBA proposal. The elected player reps should have been in contact with the players they were representing before voting.
Players need to stay at home in 2027- walk out for the entire year –
Every human being should have self determination of their labor – to keep players as chattel locked into “team control ” where the team controls the when, how, and quantity of their labor and value is wrong.
Even single payer should be an eligible free agent by age 25 – simple – let the market determine the players value – this is what the players should be striving for.
Walk out for the entire year???? I’m a fan of baseball, not a fan of union negotiations.
People will say that my opinion is pro-owner, well, what the heck his your opinion, mate? pro-what?
No college player will ever be drafted if they’re to be a free agent at 25
That’s what A’s owner Charlie Finley wanted back in the day. For all players to be free agents every year, or until their contracts were done. Because he knew that there would be less demand for individual players if all of them were free agents, and therefore salaries would be held in check.
Sounds like the playerrs are starting to realize that allowing the agents to run THEIR show is not in THEIR best interest.
A good lawyer will do just as well anyway, and probably a heck of a lot cheaper.
“You go to Tony Clark with your plan”
Maybe Tony Clark is the one that needs to go
Baseball fans are getting older and tv deals are getting smaller, attendance is falling yet the players want more every year… Doesnt take a masters degree in common sense to figure it out. To quote someone above “sit out a whole year” sure i’ll bet alot of them would jump at doing it “unpaid”… who really loses? I’d be a bit bummed but i’d get over it alot faster than they would because i’m still going to work and probably going to do more constructive things than olay fantasy baseball and sit in front of the tv
um attendance is actually rising, revenue is at an all time high and almost 2x that of the NBA..
Funny, the Yankees are now down to 74% capacity and their ticket sales is down. In 2009, they were at 98% capacity. Attendance is dropping across the board.
no it isn’t.. MLB and Yankees both had higher attendance last year than the previoius…in fact mlb broke 70mm in attendance last year and yankees attendance was a 5 year high..
Ok, I suggest an experiment. Take a random sample of say 20 people at a store you frequent. How many are MLB fans, casual or otherwise?
Where I am, I think the answer is usually zero. MLB is dying a demographic death unless they do something to change it up.
In 2009, they were at 98% capacity.
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Is your point that a new stadium draws more fans?
Costs are a lot higher in MLB than the NBA as well.
NBA and MLB both use 50% of revenue for player compensation. So the impact of player salaries is equal in both leagues.
Its supposed to 50%., but that is what is causing most of this mess. Last year the Players only received 39% of the Revenue. That 39% is even with last years FA spending at 3.8 $B total. This yrs FA spending is 2.8 $B even including Shohei Ohtanis deal.
So, and this is a genuine question coming from someone who knows the answer from having to make sure employees got paid in the past:
Who here understands how much an employee costs you beyond what shows up on their paystub?
You give a check to the employee for $1000, and yes, they pay their state, federal, and ss/Medicare out of it (or to start getting in the weeds certain retirement plans replace SS deductions, but, thats not important to the point here…) But, BEYOND that, your boss has to pay federal employment taxes on you as well, PLUS state ones, PLUS sometimes municipality ones in certain large cities, PLUS mandated unemployment insurance funds, etc etc.
So it’s not the $1000/week someone costs, it’s far far MORE than that. Many cases DOUBLE that paycheck when it comes to certain stadium and club workers. If you think Aramark is charging the clubs straight wages equal to whats paid to concessions workers on their food service deals, youre wrong. That hot dog slinger may may $15/hr, but your Dodgers are paying probably $40/hr to the company who supplies them, much like your mechanic earns $40/hr fixing your car but they bill you $150/hr for labor.
All that gets baked in.
So when you hear ‘player contracts totalled $XYZ in a year, that’s what the player earned, but not what the team had to pay to secure those services, independent of any CBT takes and mlb levied costs on top of everything else.
Whose ‘share’ of the pie should all those costs come out of exactly? Not withstanding the fact that MLB clubs have FAR more costs than either NBA/NFL/NHL clubs do, both due to size of organizations, number of areas to scout, size of minor leagues where they carry and train guys with no real ROI yet, retained salaries due to being forced to pay for guys who are cut due to failure to perform, and even just sheer number of games to cover travel costs for.
@GA that sheer number of games is added revenue and profit. And most of these teams got a significant bit of capital infused in their businesses with tax revenue covering their place of business that they own.
So, that saved money “accrues” if invested or covers expenses elsewhere. Regardless it is usually generating more capital. So let’s not try and paint this as the owners are operating some meager small businesses with a high failure right struggling to survive.
A forever mantra of the MLBPA and of Boras was “rising tides lift all boats”. Advanced analytics and how that data is used in compensation has completely broken “rising tides….”
MLBPA should turn their focus to the long neglected floor as their neglect has created cheap replacement labor for all MLB teams and $$$’s will continue going towards the development of that cheap labor.
MLBPA is not being creative, despite there not being a CAP in MLB the league with a few exceptions are acting like there is one. Just like the NBA they need to make “CBT exceptions” like the NBA has (Mid-level exceptions) for MLB veterans. Taking that one step further in MLB players who are signed under that framework are included on the 26 man but don’t count towards the 40 man. In substance a 41st man whose contract is exempt from the CBT.
It would be available to all teams but depending where a team is in the CBT would limit the max value of 1yr deal and if their are any additional incentives, such as a comp draft pick. A team would be foolish not to use it, in theory 30 vets who otherwise might have had to go the MiLB with an invite to camp contact might now have an MLB contract.
PS the economy is more than fine. Folks drinking Jim Jones’ cool-aid if they think otherwise.
Agreed. We know big spenders will spend… That’s not much of an issue. FAs are not being signed this year because teams are surprisingly getting smarter (plus more competition from overseas FAs). The floor is needed. Heck, do a floor AND a Cap! Make sure players get a guaranteed minimum salary while also capping off the market set by the big spenders. When the Dodgers broke their bank to sign Ohtani and Yamamoto (followed by inflated deals for Lynn and othe rolder pitchers) I knew the Rays could not afford even the worst FAs this year. Boras can blame himself for getting Ohtani and Yamamoto ridiculously expensive deals for the failure of Snell and Montgomery to find theirs. Teams are clearly not buying at those prices because pitching is a really volatile position and both had some warts in their overall portfolio. I still think they all got decent deals based on their past performance, but certainly not what Boras wanted.
It’s certainly true there are limited numbers of teams that CAN afford to give out 30M+/yr deals to individual players, let alone the ones who think particular guys are worth the money.
The problem is, once one guy with a particular stat profile gets a best and highest offer in a certain range, anyone else with similar stats thinks it’s their due to get a matching or better deal. The fact other teams weren’t necessarily willing to pay even the first guy at that rate gets lost in the shuffle, as do concerns about overall finances and affordability.
You forgot Glasnow. His extension was as crazy as Ohtani’s and Yamaota’s contract.
sfjackcoke
MLBPA should turn their focus to the long neglected floor
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They just did. The minimum wage had a massive increase.
Is that what you were referring to as something that they should do?
The gap between MLB minimum and FA contracts has widened over decades due to the aforementioned “rising tides…” mantra of the MLBPA. They’ve just scratched the surface at raising the floor. This is literally another example of “trickle down economics” not working.
MLBPA won the 26 roster spot however did so without any changes to the 40 man roster. As a result, the value of a 40 man spot has become even more valuable and you went from 15 spots to 14 spots.
It’s impacted certain MLB veterans from securing an MLB contract in the off-season, the volume of veterans signing MiLB contracts with an invite to MLB camp has exploded. This is about the plight of the rank & file MLB veteran player.
MLBPeea strikes again!
whoever MLB and Manfred hates the most is who it should be. There shouldve been a strike last cba. The last thing the MLBPA needs is a buddy of manfred and a weak leader. I honestly thought Meyer was the first guy in 30 years to stand up to the MLB……..he shouldve been even tougher though.
A strike!! are you insane? I’m a fan, I want baseball. The minimum wage is $760,000. Payrolls continue to increase.
If you’re so economically, socially involved run for political office and leave baseball to baseball fans.
The worst part of MLB, for fans, is blackouts. and the A’s and Pirates. That’s it.
The players lost out on 1.2$B dollars last year or 40$MM/team. Thats the amount of money that the owners kept that belonged to the players. This is extremely conservative too because its based on the MLB revenue that was released of 11.6 $B and doesn’t reflect the RSN’s, parking garages and outside venues that are generating revenue in different llc’s off the players backs. This is unionized and 5o% of the 11.6$B revenue belongs to the players. They currently only received 39% of the revenue last year.
If players want 50% of revenue they should pay 50% of the costs. Before you claim its only the players labor that creates the product, thats pure BS.
Who does all the production for broadcasts? Not the players. Who cleans and operates the venues? Not the players. Who provides medical treatment, nutrition and workout programs, coaching services? Not the players. Who operates the business side, deals with contracts, vendors, taxes, payroll, HR? Not the players. Who oversees analytics and conducts scouting? Not the players. Who manages games and constructs rosters, acquiring and releasing players, and choosing who to draft? Not the players. Who finances the whole of ST while no profits are coming in because the season hasn’t started, and only minimal ‘game’ revenue is coming in? Not the players. Who pays stadium lease, repair, and capital improvement costs? Not the players.
@GASoxFan: The players indirectly pay all those costs because they generate the revenues that give the owners what to pay for them with.
Blue baron – false, or, are you going to argue that owners who run negative books have all those costs paid by the players? It’s a well known fact that Illich was paying much more in pursuit of a ring than the Tigers were earning, and, he didn’t care, he just wanted to win while alive.
Again, there’s also the whole value added concept where not only players generate the value. Players don’t grow the food, make the food, serve the food, or clean the venues for concession income do they?
Players aren’t adding value by developing analytic models and parsing data? Or programming computer programs to crunch data?
Players aren’t performing the labor that makes physical upgrades to venues?
There’s many steps of what it takes to bring a baseball game to the masses or account for the gross revenue of MLB beyond the players walking out on the field and playing, and, without all the pieces the same value isn’t achieved.
@GASoxFan: The players are the performers fans pay to watch, like concertgoers pay to see Taylor Swift or moviegoers pay to see Leonardo DeCaprio.
Without them, owners have nothing to sell for profit. All those ancillary people have jobs and all those services are needed because of demand generated by the players.
Period, end of story. The rest is just details.
And without owners, you wouldn’t have teams to play on.
Without some owners there would be other owners. There are more people with money than there are players capable of performing at the MLB level.
And? Those players still don’t play without owners. Not everyone with money wants to own a team.
@GA The Tigers only lost $one year under Mike Illitch while contending and I believe it was $8M in 2015 when they missed playoffs and the anticipated playoff revenue.
But enough do. Your argument is ridiculous.
ummm do you not know what a union is? one side can’t survive without the other and visa versa…..hence the reason its 50/50 relationship. Been that way since the beginning of time.
The players indirectly pay all those costs because they generate the revenues that give the owners what to pay for them with.
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It’s a two-way street, and everyone knows it. Management without labor, and labor without management, will never work.
The only issue is an equitable split of the revenues. If BB was such an overwhelming money-maker, the players could chip each year to buy one team.
@JoeNrady MLB players much like athletes in other pro sports are not allowed to hold ownership stakes while being a player.
Pro sports are in no way a typical management/labor dynamic either. These players are not simply replaced on a one for one basis or just have more work piled on them like a typical employee. Teams are not downsizing their outfield leaving the defensive burden on the other 2 outfielders. The Angels are not just hiring another Ohtani to replace his production or to replace his marketability.
Belonged? The amount of people on this site that think they are economists is hilarious.
I don’t see the selling point for Marino. Seems inexperienced.
I see a long drawn out strike.
That’s a very good point.
As the salaries for.the players rise, so does the risk for the owner/FO.
Not too much of a concern when aces made $10M but holy money most of.them.make.thay now.
Sad.
The cost of going to a game, getting decent seats and spending on the things to make it an enjoyable.memory has limited the regular publics access to baseball games in person, on a frequent basis.
@Saber it doesn’t seem to be keeping fans from going to games. Id say mostowners can handle the risk, as most have saved hundreds of millions on their public funded stadiums.
This offseason is the de-throning of Scott Boras. He does not run baseball. He does not get to dictate the cost of players. Yes, it has worked in the past but it’s a house of cards, a Ponzi scheme, waiting for the whole thing to collapse because its not economically sustainable. The money is sports is slowly moving away from spectating and into gambling. Fantasy leagues started the process, where it became more important to root for your players than your team. That was the first crack. Now it’s just putting money down on what you think will happen, no loyalty whatsoever. What’s left is to pound your chest when your team wins. Miraculously, there has been a decent distribution of winning lately. The biggest spenders are not winning the big prize. Yes. they’re getting to the postseason, but with so many rounds, it’s up for grabs. This is by design, baseball has seen the result of financial dominance and how it drives away fans of all but the advantaged teams. But we have a new problem, teams have stratospheric payrolls that can’t be maintained by their revenues. It will be interesting to watch.
I’m rather stunned that Tony Clark isn’t the one taking the heat here. He’s been in charge of the MLBPA for long enough now that players and agents alike know what he does, how he operates and what his voice is like in the negotiating room. He is weak. There’s no getting around that. If a large number of players are dissatisfied or completely frustrated with Myers that should translate to equal dissatisfaction or frustration with Clark. You can’t tell me that Clark’s #2 sidekick is working against what Clark pushes or plans for the MLBPA. Therefore, he’s doing Clark’s bidding and the players should want Clark gone as well.
I remember those years as well–and the fun i had watching. But I also remember the Reserve System, where players were bound to their teams and negotiating was take it or leave it. Injured players who were just cut loose. Minimal pensions, or unvested ones. Talented players held down in the Minors because they were behind someone on the Major League roster. These guys are incredibly talented, and deserve to get paid for something that the rest of us cannot do. Are there imbalances in the current system–sure–but.
Average team salary
2021 – $119,721,221
2022 – $134,492,108
2023- $150,696,141
2024-$149,531,204 (as of mid March)
It seems obvious that there is unspoken collusion going on amongst the owners. They all use the same or highly similar proprietary, metrics-based software to determine what to offer most rank-and-file players. Some metrics are likely reasonable, but others seem very tenuous or sketchy when it comes to a true evaluation of a player’s contribution to a team. They seem to be even less reliable when it comes to evaluating star players’ total contribution to team success because of the many intangibles they add to teams that result in winning. The mostly billionaire owners are smart enough to collude without voicing it aloud within their inner circles. Saying all this, I’m also sure there are quite a few lesser successful/powerful/established agents who are and will do anything to drag down Boras and his influence within the star players’ ranks based upon professional jealousy and their own lesser accomplishments. Again, players should be pointing their fingers at their own player reps who folded late into negotiations and accepted the owners CBA demands. It may have led to cancelation or part of the entire next season, but now they see the results of that failure.
I’m not sure what your point is. Norm showed you salaries going up 26% in two years, and you’re saying that this is because of owner collusion?
Joe, the even better points are we know that figure will increase by year’s end, and yet, we also know teams that we’re forced to take income cuts due to Diamond renegotiating the RSN deals.
Seems like a fair offseason as far as money being passed around…
The simplest answer is usually the truest answer. MLB ownership is colluding against Boras clients. I’m stunned at how many on here are on ownerships’ side.
Because these players seem to think that they deserve an infinite amount of money when they are broken down and near the end of their careers, or have one good season out of 5 mediocre ones.
Side? it was a negotiated contract that benefited the players in many ways including guarantees on arbitration salaries.
I’m sorry, but if that guarantee means that the player has to take the employer’s offer it is still better than no guarantee at all. Davis and his agent should have known the precarious situation he was in. He’s an iffy glove with a .5 WAR and he should have locked in at the offered amount.
A bird in hand… fits quite nicely , mate.
And they hired his replacement.
Boy I just could not care less about this kind of stuff.
Progress? what kind of progress? other than the progress we’ve seen?
Teams were out of it in March. Lots of teams. Owners were wealthy sportsmen. Players were owned. Yes, you could make a good living, but it wasn’t easy for most players. TV was free. Radio was free. Tickets were reasonable. During games you would get the scores of the other games. The newspapers had box scores and statistical leaders. Heck, a major league ballplayer could live in your neighborhood. You could play baseball with his kids who might go on to also be major league ballplayers. Life was indeed good. Unless you were a Red Sox fan with the constant disaster waiting to give you sleepless nights.
I didn’t even read the whole article, after
Boras tried to Rise above the chaos he helped create, and have the Audacity to call someone else out-
He is the KING of having his minions open their big mouths and spread rumors out Publicly all the time!!
Jon Heyman has made a career out of it.
Chandler Rome certainly in the last few years appears to be a minion himself- He is the One who started the Avalanche that Snell and the Astros were working out a deal.
To which I was 100% Against,Thank the Good Lord it didn’t work out.
I know the HATERS will blah,blah,blah…
This Clubhouse is Special, and You have to be a Team Player, One goal- World Series or bust!!
They are Family and have each others Six, That is why they continue to be successful every year, no matter Who leaves.
I’m comforted in knowing you Reap what you Sow!!
Weakening the MLBPA by replacing an experienced labor lawyer negotiator like Meyer with someone like Marino is a huge mistake. The next CBA negotiation will be very contentious due to the issues of TV revenues, many teams high up in the CBT thresholds, lack of free agents not being signed for what historically was expected, some free agents being signed for what appear to be low ball salaries and the disappearance of contracts for mid-tier free agents.
I love these posts about MLB economics. They remind me of one of the weirder truths about human beings, that in a dispute not involving them but involving parties far above them in economic status, they tend to side against the party closest to them in status, regardless of who the other party is. Why when people get mad at insurance companies, they tend to focus on the company’s hired lawyers, not on the CEO or owners. In fact, it’s why so many lower middle class people favor Donald Trump, not to get political.
It’s just hilarious all the people screaming about how the players are so selfish, but the owners are whatever.
My guess is that it is 50/50 in here. Just like it is out there.
I’d also make a fair-sized wager that most of the fans that are pro-player are democrats and most of the pro-owner fans are republicans.
So Scott Boris went to Tony Clark. to Cry about why his top free agents aren’t getting contracts.
Scott Boras must get his attention from someone somehow.
I’m completely Kissinger Iran-Iraq on this squabble within the players union. It would be nice if both sides could lose.
That said, the players pushing against Clark and Myers – and if one goes, they both go – seem to favor a salary cap/floor system to funnel more money to middle and low-level players and away from the top level. That’s fine with me because I’d like to see the money spread around a little more evenly. But it’s not gonna make or break my day, no matter which way the power struggle ends.
This hilarious mess has been coming for a long time. Clark is a weak leader, as shown by the split in the union on the 2022 vote to ratify the current CBA. The richest players voted against the proposal while the other players voted for it. Clark obviously faced a divided union that was tired of his “leadership.” Now the chickens are really coming home to roost.
My guess is that Clark will eventually get the heave-ho and the next CBA will incorporate the salary cap/floor system that has become customary in other sports. After all, there are a lot more middle and low-level players who want more spending to fill their pockets, and a salary floor (along with a higher minimum wage) would help do that. The current luxury tax system does relatively little for them, though of course even minimum-wage MLB players make great money by real-world standards.
But who knows? Clark and the richest players may hold out against the rebels. But the other players besides the superstars have already seen Clark and the super-rich guys go down to defeat in the vote on the 2022 CBA. They’ve gotten a taste of blood, and Clark may be finished. Gee, that would be just too bad (he said with a snicker).
How does one define “progress”? We haven’t seen any labor strife for about 30 years.
To me, that means both sides are doing their job, and to me, that’s progress.
This thread tells to whole story in just 3 tweets.
twitter.com/BizballMaury/status/177028654812021193…
Its a must read.
Boras haters, your complete lack of common sense and understanding of the situation is more than a little sad. Your continuing hatred towards a guy that is the best at doing his job to get the players he is hired by paid the most they can be shows your lack of love for the players. You know, the people that we actually pay to see play. Maybe you should go watch the owners play since you think that the increasing revenue in baseball should all be going in their pockets. As I read some of your comments I had to think “are there really people that stupid?”: but you are absolute proof that half the commenters on here or more are of below average intelligence and many trend towards the bottom of the chart. .
Climbing down off my soapbox now.
Anytime you have someone like Marino backstabbing from outside, that is exactly who you don’t want representing you as your union’s executive director. That shows a clear lack of moral character and if I am putting someone in charge of getting me the most money and benefits, I want someone of the highest moral character. as well as the most experience, not someone that is willing to cut others down to get what he wants.
The union’s job is to get the players more money and if Marino is taking jabs at the agent that is most successful at doing just that, then he is not pro-player, he is pro putting himself in power.
Again, the last person you want representing you.
Clark is a cancer get him TF out of here
“Meanwhile” has to come at the start of the sentence—it can’t come in the middle, separated by two commas. How do you get this wrong TWICE in one article?
Oooooof…..
Y’all are aware that the MLB, along with the majority of professional sports, is just a scam to rob/distract taxpayers right?
Without government interference and manipulation the true value of these franchises along with player salaries would be a fraction of what they are.
Marino is just stating the obvious – the current union contract is bad for everyone except superstar free agents, which is why you have hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on older, injured guys on absurdly long (10 years and up) contracts, while younger players are tied to their teams for too long.
The MLBPA prioritizes the salary cap/luxury tax issue above all else. This makes no sense anymore with 12-15 teams over $100 million BELOW the luxury tax line. The problem in baseball isn’t Max Scherzer’s contract, it’s the guys with 3-4 years experience who are underpaid, and teams like Oakland and Pittsburgh making no effort to compete.
In the recent negotiations, the MLBPA asked for a salary floor and a shorter path to free agency, both of which would benefit younger and “middle class” players.. The 15 mid and small market owners said no, unless we get a salary cap that allows us to compete for our own good players, as the current restrictive system is the only way a small market team can hold onto it’s “core” long enough to contend. As Boras himself admitted, a cap would only affect 5-6 clubs and act to reduce the money paid to superstars like Betts, Harper, Ohtani, etc. The Union chose to make the cap the most important issue and CAVED on the salary floor and free agency path.
A cap and a floor, along with quicker free agency and a max contract and max length of contract are all features of labor agreements in other sports. They would of course require greater revenue sharing.
The current arrangement benefits a small % of the players who made it to free agency at a younger age or who have managed to maintain a high standard into their 30s, and the big market clubs. The result; stagnant pay for most players, a huge disparity in payrolls, zero fan interest in free agency, and an Opening Day where multiple fan bases have no hope of a winning season.
40 years ago the MLBPA really helped the players – now it’s a racket benefitting very few of them,, at the expense of the majority, and finally someone brought it into the open.
Just think if MLB took that $200-$300 annually that gets wasted on injured/35 year old guys on the Yankees, Dodgers etc and reallocated it to younger stars on small market teams. You’d be imitating the NFL which right now is absolute burying MLB in the popularity and TV ratings.