Throughout the late stages of the offseason, the Pirates have reportedly been exploring the trade market for rotation help, with the Marlins (specifically, right-hander Edward Cabrera) being the team most frequently suggested as a potential trade partner. However, while the Bucs talked with the Fish and surely several other clubs about deals to bolster the rotation, Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports that talks have “lost steam” and that GM Ben Cherington now says he’s increasingly focused on the arms in house.
“If there are things we can do to make the team better, we’re gonna stay on that,” Cherington tells Mackey. “No guarantee those things happen. We’re mostly focused on the guys who are here.”
The Pirates have three slam-dunk members of their Opening Day rotation: Mitch Keller, Martin Perez and Marco Gonzales. Keller, who recently signed a five-year contract extension, will get the Opening Day nod. There are still a pair of open rotation jobs, however, and Cherington suggested there are six or seven options vying for those two opportunities.
The names currently competing include a mix of young prospects, rebound candidates coming off a down 2023 showing, and veterans hoping to win a spot. While the Pirates have already informed 2023 No. 1 overall draft pick Paul Skenes that he won’t make the Opening Day roster, fellow top prospect Jared Jones (No. 74 on Baseball America’s top 100 list) is firmly in the mix. Jones may not have the same ceiling as Skenes, but Skenes pitched just 6 2/3 innings last year following the draft. Jones, on the other hand, logged a combined 3.85 ERA, 27.6% strikeout rate and 9.4% walk rate in 126 1/3 frames between Double-A and Triple-A in ’23. He’s pitched 4 2/3 shutout innings in camp.
Jones, 22, was specifically called out by manager Derek Shelton as a candidate for a spot in the Opening Day rotation (X link via Alex Stumpf of MLB.com). He’d need to be added to the 40-man roster, which could potentially work against him. That’s not true of Roansy Contreras, Quinn Priester, Luis Ortiz, Bailey Falter and Kyle Nicolas, each of whom is on the 40-man roster. (Lefty Jackson Wolf is as well, but the Pirates already optioned him to Double-A in their first wave of spring cuts).
Contreras and Falter have the most experience of the bunch. Both are looking to rebound from ugly 2023 showings. Contreras looked like a potential rotation staple as recently as 2022, when he pitched 95 innings of 3.79 ERA ball with passable, if unspectacular, strikeout and walk rates (21.1%, 9.6%). However, he lost more than a mile off his heater in ’23 and took a step back in virtually every rate category of note. He’s still only 24 years old and is just two years removed from being a top-100 prospect himself, so there’s ample time for him to figure things out. He’s out of minor league options, meaning he’ll make the roster one way or another — be it in the rotation or in the bullpen. Pirates fans will want to check out Mackey’s piece in full, as it more fully details some of the gains Contreras has shown thus far in camp.
Falter was acquired at the 2022 trade deadline in a swap sending utilityman Rodolfo Castro to the Phillies. The 26-year-old was never as touted a prospect as Contreras was, but the two followed relatively similar arcs otherwise: brief MLB debut in 2021, solid back-of-the-rotation results in 2022, poor showing in 2023. Falter tossed 84 innings with a 3.86 ERA as the Phillies’ fifth starter in ’22, fanning 21.2% of his opponents against an exceptional 4.9% walk rate. Like Contreras, he saw his strikeout, walk, swinging-strike and home run rates all back up in 2023 as he finished out the season with a 5.36 ERA in 80 2/3 frames. Also like Contreras, he’s out of minor league options and will need to make the roster or else be traded or exposed to waivers.
Priester, Ortiz and Nicolas all have minor league options remaining and have all made their big league debuts (in quite brief fashion, for Nicolas). They all ranked within the organization’s top 15 prospects at Baseball America as recently as 2023. Priester and Ortiz both drew top-100 fanfare prior to their debuts. None of the three has established himself on the roster, however. Priester has the best minor league numbers of the group but has been hit harder than Ortiz in the big leagues. Ortiz throws the hardest but has displayed shakier command than Priester. Nicolas still hasn’t had much success above Double-A, so he seems likely ticketed for Triple-A Indianapolis to begin the year, particularly since he’s already been hit hard in camp.
The Bucs also have a pair of veterans who could compete for a job. Lefty Josh Fleming is on the 40-man roster after signing a split deal late in the winter. He’s out of options and can’t be sent down, but he’s spent the bulk of his MLB career as a swingman with the Rays and could be headed for a similar spot in Pittsburgh. Righty Chase Anderson is in camp on a non-roster deal. The 36-year-old hasn’t posted a sub-5.00 ERA in the big leagues since being traded by the Brewers following the 2019 season but has shown decently in Triple-A while bouncing around the league since then.
Sign Trevor Bauer and add him to the #1 spot in the rotation.
Trevor is waiting.
While I agree with you, they already shot Bauer’s people down.
Certainly, Ortiz, Priester and Perez have shown positive signs so far this spring. I’d think that’s why Cherington has slowed the immediacy of any trade
Players Union didn’t back him. Owners backed union decision
Waiting for his flight to Japan maybe.
For the 1000th time, Cherington has repeatedly said that he isn’t interested in signing Bauer
It’s like wishing by rubbing the lantern and expecting your wish to come true
Anyone remember when “Owensboro” was “blackpink in the areo”?
Been begging for 2 years. It’s beyond time and for the price he’s only going to do wonders on the fundamentals for that young up and coming staff.
Do it. We saw what happened when the Chiefs signed the SDSU punter. It was a story for like a day or two.
Didn’t they not offer a contract to their current punter making it that much more significant if I’m not mistaken. The fans forgive if you’ve been cleared of wrong doing in the eyes of public law.
Tommy Townsend is a UFA, just hired Drew Rosenhaus (the NFL equivalent of Scott Boras) as his agent and will likely become the highest paid punter of all time (so far at least). Evidently the Chiefs believe Araiza to Townsend isn’t enough of an upgrade to pay him what it would realistically take to keep him. And Araiza has more raw talent than Townsend so if the Chiefs can teach him the the parts of punting that *can* be taught it’s not a downgrade period.
Suwinski for Cabrera?
No way. Doing that just creates a huge void for the Pirates in the outfield.
plus we couldn’t replicate his 175 strikeouts from one player
Don’t be a hater. As you can see, Suwinski is coveted. Yet you think he’s a bum and you’re a fan of the team he’s on.
Suwinski is a good, but flawed player. He’s a 25 year old Centerfielder that already has 45 homeruns is 773 career at-bats. Maybe let the guy develop, possibly into a star player.
I never said Suwinski was a bum, just that it would be difficult to replace his propensity for striking out
Cmon, Buc. How is stating a fact equal to being a hater? I don’t think I’ve ever seen TheMan3 calling Suwinski “a bum” but if we’re going to exaggerate, let’s quit calling the kid “all star caliber” as some here do.
The strikeouts are one thing. The plate discipline and mechanics, another, at least where left handers are concerned.
I like Jack and think he has great potential. But I’m hopeful he spent a good deal of his time this off season working with a batting instructor and not on a beach or golf course
He’s been on this site talking bad about Suwinski for two years, I didn’t just pull that out of my behind. You’d think Suwinski was terrible last year the way he talks about him. The Marlins would swap Suwinski for Cabrera in a heartbeat. But, the Pirates would never do that.
They’d never do that because they can’t replicate 27 homers at the MLB level and have no power hitting outfielders on the cusp
It’s almost amazing. The Pirates entire history entailed star outfielders but between scouts and player development, it’s a real gray area
Don’t know how many Pirates games you watch—I suspect a great many—but while I appreciate Jack’s power, he has a lot of at bats that I wouldn’t see at the Legion level. And that’s almost on a daily basis
I will say this: he improved his mechanics over the last 30 games. *Someone* was working with him
I only hope he spent a great deal of time with a good instructor this past off season. So far, I haven’t seen much change
That’s why I called Suwinski a flawed, but good player. That’s what he is, and that’s what normally differentiates the superstar/elite players from the solid/good ones. If he didn’t have the swing and miss issues he’d be a perennial All-Star, but he has them.
He doesn’t really need to cut down on the strikeouts as long as he avoids the prolonged slumps. Every MLB player in history slumps, but the goal is avoiding them lasting for a month and be able to get out of them in no more than a week or two.
I’m not worried about the Pirates outfield prospects as much as most because I think RF at PNC Park is easier than most on “new” Rightfielders. They can always use a surplus at another position to fill the outfield (Davis/Rodrigues, Bae, Cruz, Peguero, Triolo, etc.), plus they do still have CSN who’s only 24 and a few good ones in AA or lower (Lonnie White, Jase Bowen, Shalin Polanco, etc.). They’ll be fine, plus that might be what they target in this years draft.
You obviously suffer from reading comprehension skills, Buc, my only consistent beef about Jack, is his ability to strike out with great regularity
Do I think he has potential? Probably, but after having played baseball since he was a kid, this is probably going to be his biggest disappointment
Swinging at pitches nowhere close as the plate and he did accomplish one feat that no one else in baseball did last year
Called third strikes for an out
He also had one of the best chase rates in the majors (meaning he’s elite at not chasing pitches out of the zone). I think he should be more aggressive and less patient, which would cut down his strikeouts (but also his walks) and lead to more homeruns.
I don’t suffer from anything, everyone on this site knows your opinion on Suwinski because you haven’t been shy about it and have laid it on thick time after time. It’s fine, just own it.
I have owned my opinion but stand by my statement that I never referred to Jack as a bum which you accused me of doing
lmao semantics. Maybe you never used the word bum, but I distinctly remember you saying he wasn’t major league caliber. Which is essentially a bum. You also said he’d strikeout more than 200 times last year and hit below .200, and you were wrong about that as well.
There’s nothing elite about Suwinski’s swing mechanics, Buc. You can’t be serious in sending me some meaningless numeric.
Let me say again that I like Jack. I think he has great potential.
But he often looks woefully overmatched against most left handers, whether he chases at pitches or not
And no, the swing and miss issues don’t speak to why he’s not a perennial all star. Yes, put the ball in play but it shouldn’t be a case of home run or strikeout
The young man obviously has power. Here’s hoping he can refine his mechanics to have better plate discipline, to see an assortment of pitches well and to utilize all areas of the field in a variety of situations.
As far as prospects, you’d know better than I. It’s odd that there is seemingly no one on the farm who is on the mold of outfielders who’ve come through over the years. I hope you’re right
And I hope Suwinski is putting in the work, as well
I’ve been known to be wrong in my life, I am certainly not correct all of the time either but I appreciate your perspective on my integrity
That said, thanks to the First Amendment, I am afforded the right to express my opinions regardless of whether they are correct or not
I didn’t say anything about Suwinski’s swing mechanics, I only talked about his plate discipline (eye). He’s elite at not swinging at pitches out of the zone, which is an objective fact. That’s all I said.
No way…
Marlins hang up @ Tom
If the Marlins were offered Suwinski for Cabrera and didn’t do it, whoever hung up should be fired.
Both have decent ceilings, but Cabrera’s floor is a reliever and still a possibility, while Suwinski has established himself as a starting outfielder.
Miami would never do this
Exactly! I see MLBTR and poster on MLBTR didn’t dissapoint when I stated a day or so ago about us not having any more articles that encourage the dumb trade suggestions for Marlins SPs.
Good job everyone!
For me luzardo is the guy you move. I think the line ups much weaker you have the Braxton issues. Alcantara out all year. Just take max offer on the 3 years over the 6 on Cabrera. You just can’t understate that difference enough and the control. Rodgers trajectory really throws a wrench in this. And Meyer to date has been a major disappointment. The future is coming it’s just not all there yet and the dysfunction needs to be handled still, but it’s not as bad as the white six front office and coaching practices
How the hell is Meyer a disappointment? The guy has been lights out in the minors and just had Tommy John surgery wtf lmao
@Chemo850 Exactly. It’s hard to disappoint when injured and unable to pitch.
I think @HEHEHATE is one of those fans trying to use pre-justification to suggest one of the ridiculous trade suggestions we’ve seen all offseason. Next, he’ll suggest a dime-a-dozen prospect as the headliner along with two low level prospects in exchange for Luzardo.
I just see Miami not competing this year. Thus why you trade Luzardo at a high w the years attached vs Cabrera on the low w 3 additional years. I don’t use trade machines. I consider myself a baseball extremist. I believe in a lot of unconventional thinking that could hopefully make an organizations outlook more fruitful in the coming years. My big one is Colorado abandoning all sp spending development and training and focusing solely on a very deep rotational relief pitching surplus with and around the organization. I don’t consider myself an expert, but I do feel versed enough to drop an opinion when I choose to do so. Meyer is a major disappointment to me. While the taken where he was the projections always been to start. It’s been questionable if he’s going to stick there. For me just get him in the majors to begin with let him build up his confidence and let the arb numbers work in your favor. Now you’ve got a guy that can’t stretch his arm past 120 innings in the minors a tj surgery at 24. Barely a + .500 pitcher to begin with ratios are there but take advantage of what he’s good at. You’ve got the sp depth already and now puks in the rotation. Have fun in Florida this year. Expectations are extremely low for me on this team as is.
Funny, you’re debating with Marlins fans, and you think your opinion, while not watching the team as much as we do, is just as or more valuable than ours.
But just do what you’re building up to. What dime-a-dozen prospect and low level prospects do you want your favorite team to trade to the Marlins for Luzardo…since it’s clear that the Marlins are in business to make your favorite team better, not themselves.
Quite frankly I don’t want luzardo. I’m a pirates fan that wants carberas experience and control much more than I’d favor on luzardos price tag and pedigree. We have the prospects but the demands exorbitant.
I like to think I follow the marlins much more than the average fan outside of Miami, but that’s not saying much because most people don’t watch follow or even acknowledge the team to begin with. You might think otherwise but we’re arguing marlins points so beyond a pirates post anyways.
I think the deal the marlins needed to make was Cabrera for holiday. Two elite controlled near if not mlb ready today youngsters for each other much like the Gallen Chisholm trade of years ago.
I mean honestly you guys are still trotting out Garcia and Destroying Sanchez career/confidences in the process.
It’s cool bro defend your team all you want I just don’t see Miami playoff bound especially without alcantara down. Offense just isn’t fully either for me either. But hey I’m a pirates fan begging for 2 seasons for Bauer yet I’m smart enough to know organizational greed when I see the asks on Cabrera so I don’t blame them there either.
Well, clearly you’re missing a lot more Marlins games than a Marlins fan like myself watches.
Avi lost his job to Sanchez last year. Avi then had one of those “injuries” that conveniently sat him down for the rest of the season when it was clear that the Marlins were far better with De La Cruz and Sanchez in the everyday lineup instead of Avi. And that’s why we’re officially on Avi DFA Watch since the day the Marlins signed Trey Mancini. And with Mancini struggling, they’re now looking to JD Martinez. Consider this a little FYI that was known to Marlins fans since the last month of the 2023 season.
OK, you want Cabrera. Then let’s hear what dime-a-dozen prospect and low level prospects you want the Pirates to trade to the Marlins for him, since it’s clear that the Marlins are in business to make the Pirates better instead of themselves.
And it’s fine if you feel that the Marlins won’t contend. We’ve heard that from every poster on these boards that are trying to justify why the Marlins should trade their pitchers to their teams for their dime-a-dozen prospects. You’re not the first, and probably won’t be the last every single time one of these articles pop up…until the start of the season.
What losers this team and the Nationals are gonna suck forever with their fraudulent rebuilds a team like the tigers actually knows how to rebuild
Serious question- what’s with all the trolls here recently? As a Pirate draftee, I say Go Bucs (except against my Pads!)
8/10 times it’s a Yankee fan, the other 1/10 is general hate and the last 1/10 goes out to real ones
Hmmm…probably a fan of an AL East team or the Mets based on this comment about Yankees fans.
For somebody that goes through enough of my posts at this point you should know by now I’m a pirates fan.
I know that now. See post thread above.
Why are the Nationals in this category?
Broham Fraham is just exhibiting serious jealousy and/or hate. That is, if he’s not a “professional” Troll. Anyway, best of luck this season DS830.
I’m a Yankees fan trust me not jealous just think both these teams rebuilds suck
Hearing you being a Yank makes me feel great about Baltimore’s rebuild. Have fun against that juggernaut for the next 5+ years! Go Bucs, Orioles and Padres!! =)
Yeah orioles are probably in the best position in MLB if they get a new owner. Yankees still beat the padres and bucs easily!
=P
You obviously don’t know much about this team’s latest rebuild
All of that money that the Yankees spent on payroll last year and they still didn’t win the championship so spare me what your predictions are for who they can beat
Not just the Yankees.
These teams had similar records as the Pirates.
The Mets spent $353,546,854 for 75 wins
The Yankees spent $276,999,872 for 82 wins
The Padres spent $248,995,932 for 82 wins
The Angles spent $212,228,096 for 73 wins
The Giants spent $187,932,500 for 79 wins
The Red Sox spent $181,207,484 for 78 wins
The Cardinals spent $175,637,308 for 71 wins
The Rockies spent $171,108,778 for 59 wins
The Tigers spent $122,235,500 for 78 wins
The Nationals spent $101,190,153 for 71 wins
The Pirates spent $73,184,811 for 76 wins
And you have nothing better to do than troll a Pirate post?
Let’s see those yanks play on the same factors as Pittsburgh and let me know how long it take for Giancarlo Stanton to have a burger thrown at his face. I’ll wait. Different dynamics different baseball.
Yanks have the money spend it stupid.
Pirates #1 problem above anything is Nutting
calling people stupid because you disagree with them shows your immaturity HEHEHATE
What are you, 10?
They just spend stupid money. It doesn’t work and the lack of championship success that goes into the expectation. Me personally I don’t think most Yankee fans are versed well enough on what’s going on outside of that stadium, Yes network, or espn. Does that make them stupid no, but an organizational conception of ignorance around them absolutely. Why you want to call me out on it similar sentiment is beyond me. I find that more comical than I would immature and stupid. Again that’s just me personally here.
The young core for the Nats looks exciting
Nats might be scary if they can elevate some arms in the next 1 or 2 goes… their “young” line-up should be set relatively soon.
Abrams
Wood
Crews
House
Thomas
Not bad, but not exciting compared to say Reds
DeLaCruz
Marte
Steer
McLain
CES
Diaz
India
Greene
If you’re including arms, I’d put Cavalli on WAS’s list. Nice pieces on both sides though! Perhaps both teams run their Divisions starting soon!
True if the young guys in Cincy get hot they could be very dangerous
Cincinnati’s problem is borderline as bad as Colorado’s. You need to out Hit to win and pray you pitch decent…..enough that is. It’s why hunter greenes value is always going to be capped w such a phenomenal lineup coming up after him.
Indeed! How many teams have won a WS since the Nats? Certainly not any teams from New York, Boston or Chicago, and only one of five California teams.
They been rebuilding since 2017 so they should.
“What losers this team”..The Nats last 5 yrs(’19 WS champs) are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Tiger’s last 5 years, so I’m not sure how you rip the Nats and praise the Tigers. Do contact us again if and when the Tiger’s rebuild begins to bear fruit.
Yeah, I wish we’d signed Javier Baez for $25 million a year for half a decade to build around. Five years removed from losing 114 games (something neither the Nats or Pirates have EVER done), projected to win less games this season than last year.
If only we’d signed Gio Urshela and made a bunch of waiver pickups to move the needle this year while letting our best pitcher walk. Luckily for the Tigers (and Pirates too, for that matter), none of the teams in the division seem terribly interested in winning it.
Falter and Fleming will probably start in the bullpen, especially with Moreta hurt long-term. Falter will be the swing man that spot starts when needed, and Fleming will be a ground ball specialist.
The Pirates will likely go with two of Priester, Jones, Ortiz, and Contreras. The first three will go to AAA to continue starting if they don’t win a spot, but Contreras would go to the bullpen so the Pirates don’t risk losing him to waivers.
My predication is that Ortiz and Contreras start the season in the rotation and Priester and Jones are optioned to AAA. I think Jones would be the first callup should anyone (including the two vets) falter early in the season, and Priester will be needed throughout the year.
No need to sign someone like Lorenzen or German, or trade for anyone. I think the guys in house will be more than serviceable with a lot more upside than outside acquisitions, especially the four I listed as starting options since they all were top 100 prospects within the last three years.
Won’t see Jones until June. Unless after decades the Pirates changed how they handle no service time prospects.
Normally I’d agree, but I think with Jones and Skenes that May is a possibility. I think they’ll prioritize the extra year of control, but not the money because of how thin the MLB team is in the starting rotation on paper.
However, if the starting pitching is doing well when May hits, then if I’m the Pirates I wait until June for both. But, I genuinely think that gaining the 7th year of control is the only thing they’re overly concerned with.
Agree. Could happen if they are winning and no other options. They gave Reynolds super two. No need to wait until May. They could call them up mid April and gain extra year. The worry is that if they are so amazing they could win ROY. Priester or Ortiz is next man up. If injury happens mid late May the Pirate thing to do would use Fleming Anderson Falter whoever is around and limp into that June date they have in mind. I will put my $ in June but wouldn’t rule out May or even April.
I know it’s only 16 days to gain the extra year of service time, but the odds of the Pirates making a roster move that fast for a starting pitcher is very slim. That’s why I said May. That gives the starting pitchers 5/6 or so starts a piece before deciding one needs replaced. Position players are a little different since they play everyday.
I’d lead towards June for both, but if the rotation stinks and Jones and/or Skenes are hot out of the gate, I could see them making a move after a month or so. Too many variables to really guess, though. Hopefully they don’t need them until June. I actually think one or both of Gonzales and Perez will be worse than Contreras and Ortiz.
Figured you knew but put it out there. Many read the comments but don’t comment. I get thumbs up from people I never seen comment so figure many dont even have names created. They can do whatever they want. They can change. But they could have used Cole Taillon sooner but waited until June. Different gm but same owner. And the gm isn’t different. He does things like NH but just better. Bob hired him to carry out his plan. Bob liked NH. He wanted another NH but with better player development. Even sourced the same college.
The players union really didn’t gain much with the draft pick compensation. A few guys who play for the weaker ran teams made opening day roster. But the smart teams out number them. They will make sure there isn’t enough time to win ROY. Or finish 2nd same thing no ROY contention. And if there isn’t a need and player isn’t demanding stats wise to be called up. Someone who would previously been called up in June July will now be held back until September. Get a month of mlb seasoning and still be eligible to contend for ROY next year. And if they don’t excell they don’t make opening day roster next year and have to wait until summer.
Yeah, Huntington did a nice job and I’m surprised he hasn’t got another shot from a rebuilding team. He was very good at building a winner, but terrible at maintaining it.
As soon as the team underachieved in 2016 he doubled down on trading prospects for MLB pieces, all while not developing as well as he should have (when I was he, I mean his development staff). Other than acquiring Cruz for Watson in 2017, he basically traded away all of the prospect depth at the deadlines from 2012-2018. He should have sold off a couple more players for prospects in the ’16-’17 window and I think the team would have been better off and not had to rebuild.
By the time 2019 rolled around the MLB team was average at best and the farm system stunk.
I am guessing Contreras and Priester
I will go Contreras Ortiz. Seniority. Priester could work on more things at AAA for few weeks month.
That was my thinking. Priester is still only 23 years old and there is no need to rush him, go with the older guys since they have just as much (or more) upside.
Lorenzen on a two would have been interesting, but cherrington rushed the market over Marco and perez
A source had told me that talks between the Pirates and Marlins over Cabrera significantly deteiorated a few weeks ago. Apparently the breaking point was that the Marlins wanted both Jared Triolo and Liover Peguero, along with some mix of Jun-Seok Shim, Mitch Jebb, and one or two other names that weren’t specificed, at least to me.
I would still like the Pirates to sign one of the veterans currently on the market. I’d be pefectly fine with rounding the rotation out with Michael Lorenzen or Mike Cleinvger. One positive is that the young guys are looking better in Spring. Quinn Priester, Roansy Contreras, and Luis Ortiz are throwing a lot harder than they were last year. All are up by 1+ MPH. I’m not overly enthuisatic about the current look of the OD rotation, but I’m OK with what they’re cooking. They’ll get a lot of mid-season reinforcements with Paul Skenes, Jared Jones (if he isn’t on the OD roster), with Mike Burrows and JT Brubaker returning sometime around the All-star break in July, assuming they don’t have any setbacks.
I was told by someone I trust that the Marlins and Pirates basically had a deal in place (Ashcraft and Peguero, with possibly a low-A prospect thrown in as well), but when Braxton Garrett when down with the shoulder issue (that’s still bugging him) the Marlins greatly increased their ask. Makes sense for them to do that and for the Pirates to say no.
However, by midseason the Pirates might not need Cabrera (or he might end up in the bullpen), and the Marlins will regret not pulling the trigger. Or both sides still match well and the Marlins staff is healthy around midseason, and something can be done.
I also heard that too. I like the young guys we currently have. Ortiz and Priester have looked a lot better this Spring compared to last year. Hope it works out for them. By the All-star break, we’re talking about having Skenes, Jones, and possibly Burrows all in the Majors. Lots of reinforcements to come during summer time.
@MLB & Buctober; thanks for the intel.
Sounds like Bucs are trying to win this year but SP young guns are not quite ready for the 26 roster. So agreed, with bummer news on trade option frustrations, go getting a Lorenzen or Clevinger or both seems logical as 4/5s in the rotation. Again, if trying to win. IE. if not still deep in rebuild mode.
What benefits the Pirates greatly is the fact that the NL Central doesn’t really have a run away candidate.
I don’t know how people are saying the Pirates are “set up” for this year unless spring games are the only barometer
Their starting pitching staff is a house of cards, to say the least, but they’re not about to sign or trade for an established arm when the cavalry will be coming over the hill by mid season
But as long as the starters keep them in games, they can tread water and stay in the hunt until reinforcements get here
I don’t think they’re in perpetual rebuild anymore but they do have questions. At 2nd. At 1st. In RF.
Can Cruz continue his ascension to stardom, can Davis handle catching, an Suwinski be a much more productive hitter?
High hopes at this time of year. Me? I think they’re a year away, with no serious injuries
A source that I made up just so I can post something says that none of these other sources are real.
Mlb1225 your source is either some clown you work with or your over active imagination. If Marlins asked for all that there wouldn’t have been any talks because the conversation would be over.
Buctober is closer to the truth. Marlins wanted too much but not so much that you couldn’t wait them out and come to an agreement once they came to their senses. Garret injury made it so talks never got to that point.
Yeah, I couldn’t tell at first if this was just two guys meme-ing back at each other or if they were serious. But I do see mlb post a lot in Bucs threads. Even if they’re pulling this out of their asses, it makes logical sense.
From the Marlins standpoint, they made it in as the last WC last year. They’ll be lucky to do that again and with a new front office, those guys don’t want their first year to be one described as declining from the Ng era. The only way they can compete is with their starting pitching. They don’t have the lineup to compete with likely WC teams like the Cards/Reds/Cubs, Padres/D’Backs, or Phillies. With Sandy recovering from TJS and Braxton Garrett not ready for the start of the season. And guys like Sixto Sanchez who is criminally overweight and can barely touch 93 now. Trading Cabrera would almost be like waving the white flag on the season. So, if they are basically mailing it in, they want a return worth burning this year for. Plus, I wouldn’t be surprised if the pitching market is depressed a bit by Monty & Snell still unsigned. Once those guys sign, demand for Cabrera will probably go up as he may be more desirable for teams compared to Cease or Bieber.
And for the Pirates, it’s basically a question of if they want to realistically compete for the division this year. It seems like Milwaukee is giving it one more try but feels like they’re gasping their last breaths. While the Reds, Cubs, & Cards are all going for it, and I’d probably take all 3 of those teams (or at least CIN & CHC) over Pittsburgh right now. It feels like they need at least 1 more top of the rotation arm and a couple players to have Better than expected seasons to compete this year. Maybe they can in 2025? But I also wonder how much longer Cherington is going to get before they pull the plug? I mean they’re doing good but they aren’t developing guys at the rate of the O’s, Red, Dodgers, Padres, etc.
Cherington is more likely to get a raise and maybe a promotion vs getting fired. He’s done a great job. Complete rebuild in 2 years. That’s unheard of. I imagine he is locked up for years at a nice salary. If he was fired he would have no trouble finding employment.
They contended last year. You can’t lose Cruz and 3 of your best starters and keep it up. You also can’t take bottom of the league player development to the top quickly. And even after 5 10 years you can’t expect it to be the best or top 5. Other teams are trying as well and aren’t getting rid of their best guys.
Mlb is a long time member. He must of had a breakdown or account got hacked. He muted me. Has “sources” now lol. His intelligence dropped drastically.
Cabrera doesn’t really move the needle for the Pirates at the moment, especially for the asking price. He’s got a good arm and a lot of talent, but he has huge control problems and might end up in the bullpen.
The Pirates are realistically set up to contend this season already. The front of the rotation arms are going to come from within over the next couple of seasons (Skenes, Jones, Solometo, Chandler, Ashcraft, Harrington, etc.).
I’d have the Pirates third in the division right now, ahead of the Cardinals and Cubs and about even with the Reds. The Cardinals pitching isn’t going to hold up and the Cubs roster just doesn’t impress me on paper. I might be wrong, but I still think the Brewers are pretty good, although you’re right about it probably being a last run before a rebuild. The Pirates and Reds definitely have the most staying power as both have tons of young talent up and down the roster, and in the upper levels of the minor leagues.
I don’t really understand how you can say the Pirates aren’t developing guys at the rate of the Reds and Dodgers/Padres (the Orioles I’ll give you). The Pirates have a very good lineup on paper and it’s filled with 7 homegrown guys, and they have the best pitching prospect group of any team in the league (5 top 100 pitchers, plus several other good ones).
I think the Pirates are set up nicely to be the best in the division next year (2025), and should have staying power. If the team takes another step forward this season I expect Cherington to get an extension.
Probably already extended. I wouldn’t extend my manager without being taken care of myself. Should be extended again. Probably get a fancy new title.
Miami couldn’t teach Cabrera control. He’s more of a buy low and hope you can out develop a team that does well in pitching development than sure thing top of rotation starter. They were open to trading him for a reason.
Pirates prospect operation is ahead of schedule. They drafted well. Traded for the types of players they should. Were already one of the more active teams in Caribbean and Asia. They are even putting more resources there. Even got a kid in DR who if isn’t will be state side soon who throws 100 that they found in Africa. They are trying their best to be the best player development in baseball. Takes time.
Agree 100%, jumps, but the caveat is the division they’re playing in. No one got appreciably better this off season, unless you count the Cardinals rebuilding their starting staff with guys who are heading towards retirement.
I get why they’re going to keep the young stud pitchers on the farm for awhile but they’re going to have some pleasant problems in one year between their existing starters, the young guys on the cusp and the surgically repaired
Guess I’d feel better about ‘24 if there weren’t so many question marks in the field and at the plate. Where are the runs going to come from?
Sixto averaged 95 on his return to the mound this spring. @jump
But Sixto is on that Livan diet eating them two 20 piece nugget combo from McDonald’s with a side of mangu y salami
Apologize for the somewhat double post. Ghost in the machine today at MLBTR. Thought it didn’t take—said as much—but did after all
The Pirates system is much better now than it was 5 years ago. I would just argue it hasn’t produced the consistency or accumulated bulk that the clubs is mentioned have. The Dodgers & Padres have a longer recent history of developing strong prospects. And if you were to show me the current & former crop of prospects from Cincy, Baltimore, & Pitt from the last 3 years or so, Pittsburgh is easily the weakest of the 3.
tiredolddude touched on it below, maybe the biggest issue is that where’s the bats? You mentioned 7 homegrown starters in the lineup. You said about starters going down being a factor. I would counter and say that if it wasn’t for a white f’n hot start to last season, the Pirates would’ve had the 2nd worst record in the NL and one of the 5 worst in baseball. Maybe Johnson develops into this fun, left handed version of Altuve/Pedroia at 2nd. But like if I put Henry Davis next to Adley Rustchman, it’s not close, at least for me anyway. Even the blood has come of Reynolds a little bit after the extension. As someone who has no dog in the NL Central race, Ke’Bryan is the only intimidating player for me in that lineup, unless Reynolds is on a hot streak.
Also, I’m just always iffy on pitching prospects nowadays given how volatile they can be and how often arm injuries crop up now. Skenes is a monster, anyone would be excited to have him. Hopefully he has a long career and maybe the Bucs get their ace to stay unlike Gerrit Cole. But all of the other guys you mentioned, all have some reasons to be skeptical about. Skenes I feel is the only slam dunk front of the rotation arm. Maybe guys develop into that over time?
But Jones and Chandler are still more control than command. They’re more like Edward Cabrera than you’d like to admit. Solometo gives me the same concerns with guys that throw from his arm slot. That the elbow will give out at some point, it’s what worries me about Kyle Harrison with the Giants. Ashcraft has some big stuff but he’s already entering his age 24 season and he has a lengthy injury history. And Harrington probably has the highest floor of the guys outside of Skenes but maybe the lowest ceiling. He probably has the best command of any of their top guys.
I’m not trying to dampen your fandom or crap on your team. I think the Pirates are better off now than they’ve been the last couple seasons. But I think there’s legitimate questions going into next year. And it’s only going to get tougher in future seasons. Pretty soon, the Mets are going to start spending again and probably also the Cubs. The Phillies & Padres are committed to spending for the next few years at least, the Giants have money saved up. And market teams closer to the Pirates size like the Reds & D’Backs are arguably better and further along in their timelines. It’s a real possibility that over the next 5 years that the only team making it out of the NL Central is the division winner. And the new balanced schedule eliminates teams from just cannibalizing each other inside the division. So you may end up with a division that has all 5 teams at or above .500, if not 4.
Lastly, as an outsider, I can’t forget that the Pirates may be cursed with the worst owner in baseball and maybe all of major North American sports. The O’s sale makes it very likely they can not only keep their new crop of prospects for now but the future. While Cherington has done a very good job, if they don’t win the division in the next 1-2 years. I could see Bob Nutting being so out of touch. That he fires guys. Some of the leaders there have shown to lack common sense and be petty, like firing Hayes AA batting coach.
I’m just explaining my reasoning on why I think the Pirates are where they are and where I think they may end up. If they aren’t going to spend money in free agency, then they need to keep hitting in the draft, minor league FAs, waiver claims, trades, & international FAs. What their current crop of prospects are right now need to be the yearly expectation in order to keep up with the big spending teams. Otherwise they’re gonna go through more times like they did in the hangover during the post-peak years of the mid 2010s.
*meant to say bloom has come off the rose a little in relation to Bryan Reynolds since he signed that contract extension.
All good points
Some of us long time, long suffering fans take the idea of “top prospects” with a grain of salt where the Pirates are concerned. You’re right. They’re better off now after Huntington destroyed the farm system but the truth is their scouting department has misfired for years and their player development personnel have failed miserably
In this regard, DreamGM is right. Scouts and development guys don’t grow on trees and the Pirates aren’t alone in being subpar. But having been down so long, you’d think that some of these guys—especially outfielders—would have panned out
We’re at the time of year where the rose colored glasses types take umbridge at the cold slap of reality many of us have.
It’s a patchwork rotation
Offensively, they have Reynolds and hopefully Hayes that they can count on
Hopefully Cruz continues his trajectory. Hopefully guys like Cutch and Tellez can drive in some runs. Hopefully Davis is a big contributor. Hopefully Suwinski can be more than home run or strikeout
That’s a lot of hopefully SS
I can’t get to Bradenton but I don’t see any run producers on the cusp. Maybe Termarr in a year or two.
We’ve seen a whole host of middle infielders but none has really separated himself as an everyday star in the making at 2nd.
I’m hoping that the young starting pitchers provide some hope beginning in ‘25. But even if they do, they need to load some positions with guys who can also hit
Nice to compete in the NL Central. Would be nicer to go a bit further
Agreed. I think the easiest way to say it is that there’s too many if’s to be confident.
I like some of the moves they made, I like the Marco pickup for the rotation. If Skenes pans out, he and Keller will be a real fun 1-2 punch to watch for a number of years.
I’m a Phillies & Mariners fan, so when it comes to guys like Suwinski, it can be fun but it’s exhausting watching guys come up and either hit a home run or strike out. Guys like Cutch and Tellez are probably going to be counted on to produce more runs than they’re probably capable of at this point in their careers. For someone whose on the outside looking in and a Bucs fan shows me Oneil Cruz. It’s hard for me to be excited when I look at Cincy and they have a better version of the same guy in EDLC. And then they have Marte and Encarnacion-Strand and Steer and McLain and India and Candalario. Any of these guys the bucs would probably kill to have on their roster right now.
But maybe the Bucs will have a similar breakout this year that the Reds did last year? The spring time is there to hope.
Those other teams wouldn’t have done so well if they had to try to make Huntington prospects good mlb players. Guy got fired for a reason.
Cheringtons prospects haven’t arrived yet. I believe they will starting this year. I expect to see the Pirates in the playoffs a lot and it won’t be because of their high payroll I promise you that.
Ben, we’re a small-market team, and you’re a small-market GM. I’m asking you to be okay not spending money.
Teams with $ are scary. Obviously you can do night and day more with 200 300 million vs 70 80 million. Mets with someone who is not a awful gm is really scary. Only reason these small market teams even have a chance is because the bigger markets are mostly ran by idiots. Once that changes and if there isn’t a salary cap a third to half of the league can just give up hope of contending. But right now they can contend and the NL central will. They got great farm systems and good enough gms for the most part. Cards not as much but they have more revenue. Cubs much more revenue. Central can have wild card team. Giants farm isn’t scary. Trades haven’t been impressive. They need a new front office before I worry. That Correa contract was awful. Dodged a bullet there. Padres will be kept in check with their awful long term contracts. Even the Dodgers. Their contracts weren’t nearly as bad or even good but the final years usually get you. Phillies weaker farm and some big contracts. Mets though could be LA 2.0
You can’t dampen my fandom. I can easily find another team or stop watching baseball. I am a Pirates fan because Bob Nutting runs his team closer to my strategy than any other team. Maybe he read my book. Tampa as well. Baltimore is doing a good job but only room for 1 team per division. Braves for NL east LA for west. But small markets are more interesting to me than large and mega markets. If the Pirates ever change their philosophy from mine then I am done with them. They can’t contend with any other strategy. Can’t contend without a top 10 gm.
Reynolds Suwinski Hayes Cruz TJ Davis Endy all here till at least 2028 and some 2030. That’s 7 of 9 spots. All those guys are run producers or should be. I think they can find 2 more. If not oh well. Most teams don’t have an entire roster of good players.
2025 to 2030 isn’t a concern for me. I know what they have in the minors. I just want to see if they can keep it going to 2035. Drafting lower won’t be as easy. They have to trade players who won’t extend. Biggest concern is what the league does rules wise and how other teams operate.
Reds are looking great but no reason to be jealous. There’s a wide margin of outcomes for the Cruz’s. They both crush the ball, run and throw. Both strike out a ton. Both struggle vs LHP. With the same name and similar height it’s amazing. If the Pirates Cruz didn’t destroy his ankle I would have taken him easily. I will still take him. I think he will play SS. K less. Hit LHP better. The other Reds got a BABIP and great American band box boost. Last year Hayes didn’t have his timing. Reynolds close uncle died. Davis was distracted with RF. Cruz wasn’t there. I think the offense will look better this year.
That’s a lot to read, I stopped in the middle. A couple notes:
The Pirates didn’t just start hot, they finished hot with all the youngsters in the lineup. The vets cooled off and the team was terrible in the middle, and once the Pirates went “all in” on the youngsters they were above .500 for the last two months of the season. So you were incorrect on your point.
Also, of course pitching prospects fail, that’s why you have to have a lot of them, which the Pirates do. They have more depth than any team in the majors (meaning pospects). They have five different guys currently on top 100 lists, three others that graduated, but were on top 100 lists in the last couple of years, and another one that was listed by two separate sites as someone who will probably be on the list next year. That’s an insane amount of depth. That’s how you insulate yourself from the inevitable failure/injury of some of them.
Jones and Chandler are not like Cabrera, it’s a bad comparison. While all three have a lot of arm talent, Jones doesn’t have the walk problems Cabrera did in the upper minors (Jones is improving, Cabrera got worse as he got higher in the system). Chandler was 20 years old last season, at that age Cabrera wasn’t even striking that many guys out and was two levels below where Chandler ended last season. I understand the point you were trying to make, I just don’t think it was a great one as they aren’t really similar.
The Reds are a year ahead of the Pirates on their rebuild (despite rebuilding for a lot longer). I actually like the Pirates crop of position players better than the Reds. The Reds currently have the much better starting staff (for now).
I think the Pirates group of Davis, Rodrigues (out for the year), Hayes, Reynolds, Suwinski, Cruz, Peguero, Triolo, Bae, and eventually Johnson, White, Brannigan, Cheng, etc. will be better than the Reds. The Reds barely finished above the Pirates last year and the Pirates weren’t even trying to win. The Reds “rebuild” was supposedly over, which I agree it is and they’re set up for some sustained success, I just think the Pirates will be better.
EDLC is NOT better than Oneil Cruz. Oneil has been much better in the same amount of games played, and can actually play Shortstop (unlike EDLC). You’ll find out this year. So will the entire league.
It’s an interesting division with a ton of young studs coming up and getting their chances. The Cubs, Reds and Pirates all have a great deal of young talent and the Brewers still are likely one step ahead. Should be a boat race
Funny to hear Karl Ravech predict the Cardinals will be the team this year along with the Cubs. Ok Karl
You mention a lot of guys here and above I’ve attached a great many question marks Maybe the stars will align.
I still think they’re a year off due to starting pitching concerns, as well, but I don’t think you’ll need 90 wins to win the Central
I agree they are a year off from the “finished product”. This year reminds me of 2012. Very young, but still flawed team. Rotation isn’t quite good enough and still a couple of patchwork positions, but they’re close.
Actually, thinking back on it, this is weirdly similar to 2012. In 2012 the Pirates were right in the playoff race and competing for first until the late August/September collapse (probably a lot to do with the youth). But, then they went out and got Russell Martin and Francisco Liriano in free-agency and brought up Cole and Jeff Locke (remember him) in 2013 and the rest is history.
Should be fun. Excited to watch the talent develop on the young Pirates roster.
Yeah, I’d agree and I’ll be more excited if Cruz becomes a 25-30 HR guy along with Suwinski. At that point, I’ll see the 2012 similarity
Guess I wish I had a bit more faith in the intangibles we don’t see. Player development. Coaching, especially with these young arms coming. Manager.
A lot of questions should be answered by ‘25, from the starting staff to positions like catcher, 1st, 2nd and RF
Hope they find all the parts
The main difference between this team and 2012 is that the Cardinals now aren’t even close to what they were then. I also believe this team has much more depth than the 2012 team. Cole was on the horizon then, Skenes now; but the cupboard was fairly bare beyond that in terms of pitching. You can’t say that guys like Locke and Charlie Morton had the ceilings of guys like Burrows, Jones and Ashcraft – not to mention Chandler and Solometo behind them. That organization also had nothing like Termarr Johnson coming through the system.
There are similarities in terms of the stages of development of the core, but there are more guys poised to break out now AND a weak division. A collapse seems less likely due to the depth, though I’d agree that this year is not the best version of the team we’ll eventually see.
Totally agree on the point about the Cardinals. Back in 2012, even though I knew the Pirates were much improved, I didn’t think they could realistically win the division. Turns out I was wrong because prior to the historic collapse they were right in the middle of it. I feel like this year they can legitimately win the division.
I’ll disagree somewhat on the prospect point. I think you’re understating the players the Pirates had coming up through the system. Not nearly as deep as this year, but in 2012 Cole was in AAA, Taillon was in AA, and Locke/McPherson made their debuts (Locke actually in 2011). They also had their own version of Johnson with Starling Marte, who was as good of a prospect as Johnson is and made his debut in the middle of 2012.
But, I agree with your overall point. I feel like this season is like 2012, but the Pirates are deeper and have a more legitimate chance to win the division. I’m excited to see who wins the last few roster spots and how the youngsters develop. Could be a fun year.
You can’t make the Clevinger argiment over Bauer, but we’ve made the call on Chapman. You are either pedal to the metal, treading water or rebuilding. The nl central is wide open let’s go for it.
You’d think they would be better with all those years of being terrible.
Position wise they are pretty solid except for 1B they keep plugging with third tier free agents. The rotation outside of Keller is a rogues gallery for sure. Imo they need to sign one more starter, but that doesn’t seem likely at this point. Rotation is clearly the biggest weakness for this team and will probably be to blame when they finish 10 games under .500
Only been terrible for 3 years. Probably around 500 this year. Should be playoff contenders the rest of the decade.
Hope so. Great stadium and great sports town! The fans deserve it.
Anything can happen but if you look at the top half of their top 30 it’s mostly high end pitching. That’s the hardest most expensive important thing to get. Sites rank them middle of the pack farm system wise but I have them in top 5. Pirates should be strong the rest of this decade.
People believe they been rebuilding for a decade but they had a winning record in 2018 and didn’t start to rebuild until 2021. 2020 was awful but only 60 games. 2023 was a 500 team. They just collapsed in May and sold at deadline. But a solid fun team to watch. 2 miserable rebuilding years is manageable. One of the easiest rebuilds for fans ever. Probably the easiest. Astros Cubs Orioles took double or longer. Royals Tigers have been at it since 2017 or so. Marlins White Sox didn’t impress. Nats are doing ok but not as good as Pirates. No idea what Colorado is doing. Oakland trades look poor. Future rebuilding teams should copy the Pirates.
the fans have deserved a championship since we paid for the construction of PNC Park with our taxes and the stadium opened in:2001
Take Steven Matz and most of his salary.
For? Not gunna get much…
Each report about things that the Pirates were looking to do or who they were interested in, never happened. PR department on full spin cycle this off season
Not from Pirates PR. They are awful at it. A lot of the news wasn’t even from Pittsburgh.
Mlb1225 your source is either some clown you work with or your over active imagination. If Marlins asked for all that there wouldn’t have been any talks because the conversation would be over.
Buctober is closer to the truth. Marlins wanted too much but not so much that you couldn’t wait them out and come to an agreement once they came to their senses. Garret injury made it so talks never got to that point.
Jared Jones is firmly in the mix with the no service time pitching prospects who are going to the minors.
Keller, Perez, Ortiz, Gonzalez are the top 4 SP for 2024. Skenes and Jones will be here in June… Brubaker in July… so getting Contreras to solidify the 5th spot is crucial but I believe he can regain his velocity and confidence. Priester, Falter etc are possible spot starts and long relief.
Perez and Marco are inning eaters. A slam dunk? That’s hilarious. Stop balking at Bauer and take the risk and reward already if you aren’t flipping assists for Cabrera like you should be.
If Blake Snell really just wants The Bora$ Contract, then Pittsburgh should sign him. He will be worth it and they can certainly afford it.
He always throws 102 pitches through 5 because it’s darned hard to hit a fair ball off the guy. That and he does bounce a few of his ridiculous breaking balls. I think both of those things will lessen as he ages, loses a bit of tilt thus leading to fair (but still-inept) contact. His command should improve leading to more efficient outs.
If he stays healthy, duh.
He is the type who could greatly help lead this staff and team to a new level, he’s that good. Knows what he is doing. Likes the big game. Well respected by those around him.
For him, $$$ plus there are way worse things than being the King of Pittsburgh. He can pretend it’s Seattle if on the correct property.
Pirates don’t do opt outs. He will likely get one if he doesn’t get a 150 million deal. Pirates like team friendly.
The last person we sign is snell. Why pay 30 million for a 2 time cy vs league minimum + incentives on another.
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I wouldn’t mind the Phils sending them Tijaun and some cash.
Eduardo Cabrera’s away splits was 0 – 7 with a 5.96 ERA last year. And there’s trade interest?!
I’d think teams would be falling over themselves with another chance to fleece the Bucs. I guessing Cherington is a little less a sucker than his predecessors. Though, in all seriousness, they have three starters and Skenes is nearly there. They don’t need to make a big splash, they probably won’t be good this year regardless. They should have grabbed a handful of depth options. Someone like Gibson would have fit here.
I’ll defer to DreamGM on this one but it would appear that Cherington rebuilt the farm system from rubble and is happily quite hesitant in giving away any prospect who hasn’t had a thorough look here
I think the idea is to have a home grown team that will contend beginning next year, perhaps.
Not sure they have three bonafide starters yet and yes, Skenes is on the cusp, but the strength of the farm is a large number of stud starting pitchers. They’re going to have some tough decisions ahead
Maybe the idea will be to bring in a power hitting young outfield prospect, something they seem to be lacking
Davis is going to stick to if I think. The bats just too good to keep out of the lineup. He can catch enough, but he still needs a ton of development there. And once ends is healthy I think he’s now the preferred option going forward.
I root for the kid, HEHE. Seems to me they messed with his head last year and I’m still wondering how you draft a kid as overall number 1 and don’t catch him at all during the season
Hope you’re right