As Spring Training continues to get underway, here are three things we’ll be keeping an eye on around the baseball world throughout the day today:
1. Mid-level starting market continues to thin:
With veteran left-hander Hyun Jin Ryu now poised to depart MLB in favor of a return to the Korea Baseball Organization overseas, the remaining second-tier starting pitching market has lost one of its best remaining arms without him landing with a big league club. Could Ryu’s departure increase demand for the remaining options? The best arms available at this point in the winter appear to be right-handers Michael Lorenzen and Mike Clevinger, though other veteran options such as Zack Greinke, Johnny Cueto, Noah Syndergaard and Jake Odorizzi also remain available. The Angels, Twins, and Padres are among the clubs known to be in the market for rotation additions at this point in the winter. While it’s possible that Anaheim could look to make a splash this winter and add one of the top-tier starters remaining in Jordan Montgomery or Blake Snell, both Minnesota and San Diego appear likely to be confined to smaller additions.
2. Will Bellinger’s market pick up?
Comments from Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts yesterday indicated little progress has been made between the organization and center fielder Cody Bellinger in contract talks this winter. A return to Chicago has long seemed to be the likeliest fit for Bellinger this winter given the success he saw there in 2023 and the club’s uncertainty in center field, where top prospect Pete Crow-Armstrong may not be quite ready to make the jump to the big leagues. However, Ricketts’ comments yesterday indicate little urgency on the part of Chicago in reuniting with the slugger.
Bellinger, the top outfielder on the offseason’s free agent market and the No. 2 hitter behind only superstar Shohei Ohtani, is coming off a 2023 campaign where he slashed an excellent .307/.356/.525, good for a wRC+ of 134. That’s production that nearly every team would surely like to have in their lineup, particularly at a position as key as center field. Could the seeming reluctance of the incumbents convince other clubs to consider a late push for Bellinger, perhaps on a shorter-term deal?
3. MLBTR Chat Today
While teams around the league are holding their first full-squad workouts of the spring, a handful of the winter’s top free agents remain unsigned and plenty of offseason shopping lists around the league remain unfulfilled. Are you wondering if there’s more in store for your team as camps open in Arizona and Florida? If so, tune in this afternoon when MLBTR’s Steve Adams hosts a live chat with readers at 1pm CT. You can click here to ask a question in advance, and that same link will allow you to join in on the chat once it begins or read the transcript after its completed.
If snell signs w yanks – this will be the worst offseason in mlb history. MLB needed to step in and make adjustments to the leagues financial portfolio prior to the offseason beginning due to the tv money fallout and uncertainty of what it looks like moving forward in the short term.
Sucks for baseball there’s only 2 teams that can blow past any salary cap limit with no regard. And this has been one ugly offseason
The Mets??
Mets are broke
Highest payroll in mlb
Takes 2 sides to renegotiate the CBA. Teams entering into their own contracts for tv revenue doesn’t seem like a league issue
Also, there are others but some CHOOSE not to.
“If snell signs w yanks – this will be the worst offseason in mlb history”
Plus, the sky is falling
hey filihok, you should come over and we can watch some games this weekend buuuddy
Bw
Sorry, I’m busy
Of course the sky would have some regression, it’s very old. Still has a solid spin rate, however.
No way Snell signs with the Yankees, whose archaic rules about facial and long hair would cost Snell that goatee
Womp womp
Ahhhh the mlb players association is only concerned with maximizing salaries, not the real world out there like tv deals amd falling revenues.
Ootd
“the mlb players association is only concerned with maximizing salaries”
That’s all they should be concerned with
Let the capital, the owners, you know, the guys were are told that take all the risks thus they deserve all the riches, concern themselves with that.
So you’re mad at the players, not the teams. The players were the ones that wanted the changes to the luxury tax penalties, not the owners.
But it doesn’t matter, neither the Dodgers or Yankees will win their division. Light spending Arizona and Baltimore will.
No I’m mad only two teams can afford the top tier free agents while all the other teams w money signed who they could and now there’s all this falling talent that can be scooped up for below market value by the largest franchise least effected by the broadcasting fallout.
It creates an even more lopsided product and creates a need for better parity in baseball. And baseball has done a good job w parity so they shoulda seen this one coming and did something about it !
Big Whiffa: I’m not so sure about parity in bb. There’s the teams that spend tons of money like the LAD, Braves, Mets, Yankees, etc. Then there’s the middle tier like TB, Detroit, Milwaukee, Angels, Miami, etc. Then there’s the lower tier like Pittsburgh, etc. Then there’s the embarrassing level which would be the White Sox From, say, the Braves to the Sox, there is no parity. The owners are billionaires. They could spend the money to be competitive, but that’s why they’re still billionaires. They don’t spend anything.
@Filihok “Thats all they should be concerned with”……The MLBPA has ALWAYS been about the top 5-10% of players and really couldn’t give a damn about the rest. If the MLBPA cared about the average player they’d have gone after the reserve clause(a long time ago) that binds player to team(and limits his rights)for over half a DECADE. Like a lot of unions, the MLBPA overly caters to the Max Scherzer/Justin Verlander top 5-10% of players. Limiting the reserve clause(to 4 or 5 years) would help the OVERWHELMING majority of players, 95% of which will never see anything close to a Manny Machado, Max Scherzer type of contract.
MLB fan: Or should I call you Rapunzel? The reserve clause ended in (give or take) 1974 when Andy Messersmith challenged the reserve clause and won. That’s why players are not bound to their team for their entire career.
“Bound to their team”…Ok I used the wrong term but I’m pretty sure you knew what I meant. Since you didn’t even address my real point I guess you don’t have anything to actually add on the subject? Based on your non answer/deflection I’m guessing you’re in favor of unions that serve the top few(5%) and ignore the many(95%)?.
drasco: My dream scenario.
That is why they play the games. If you thought things through you’d be with the paying fans, not taking sides between owners and players.
@Big Whiffs
Seems like what you wrote above, sort of describes where the entire country is headed.
Politicians and certain lying media outlets, all bought and sold and controlled by the mega rich, to get themselves even more money and power. The Fi(0)X is in.
Did you need to get fitted for that tinfoil hat or does any ordinary tinfoil work?
All the tinfoil hats were stolen along with the 2020 election.
If you don’t know that money and power are perpetuating lies, you have been under a rock.
“stolen along with the 2020 election.”
Still buying that lie? It’s amazing how the results of 60 lawsuits and utter lack of evidence can be willfully ignored.
Meh. Several teams cut payroll this year. This season actually reminds me a little of 2018-2019 offseason. Honestly, I would have liked to see the implementation of the salary floor MLB was proposing to the MLBPA, but MLBPA has steadfastly remained ironclad against any form of salary cap so it wound up being a non-starter.
martras: For teams like the White Sox, who play the game on the cheap, a tax floor would look nice.
TV thing is just an excuse to keep the money. It’s not like someone isn’t gunna step up to televise those teams games. Unless TV somehow goes under real quick. I can see the excuse of it being financially responsible…..if you don’t care about having a winner and would rather have even more profit than normal.
Dnice if it was some of the usual suspects then I could agree with you. But Texas has shown they’ll spend money and if they have concerns I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.
Texas Boston Sea SF SD Tor. Looking more likely the cubs won’t spend big. All of the teams that use to keep pace w dodgers and yanks now cannot.
“Unless tv somehow goes under”…Tv most certainly will not “go under” but it is drastically changing. You may notice ESPN has laid off THOUSANDS in the last few yrs and the Nation’s biggest cable provider, Comcast/Xfinity, has lost over 20M+ plus customers in just the last 6 yrs.
“If Snell signs w Yanks- this will be the worst”….The hyperbole is really strong with this one.
“If Snell signs w Yanks..worst off-season”…..Baseball has always had plenty of haves and have nots. This is not exactly a new development and yet clever teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have always managed to compete. The Dodgers and Yanks dominate headlines but have actually won less World Series than the Marlins in roughly the last couple of decades.
I’m beginning to think that the only reason some are still able to complete is because there’s only the Dodgers and Yankees with seemingly unlimited money. In that case, a few other teams are bound to be able to compete. The owners are crying poor though, IMHO. They all have money to at least give out short term big AAV’s. Most don’t even attempt though.
D-Nice: You’re right, the owners are all very wealthy. You have owners who care about winning a WS, like Cohen. Even though it didn’t work out for the Mets, he spent a lot of money with the intent of winning it all. If Manfred was a real commissioner he would get after the Sox and the A’s (who have actually signed less embarrassing players than the Sox) for refusing to field a competitive team.
Big Whiffa: Totally agree, I don’t want to see Snell with the nyy. But I’m against a salary cap. However, there sort of is already. Not like football, but the owners are limited as to how much they can spend before they’re taxed heavily by the league. One thing that MIGHT be a good idea comes from English soccer. The big teams are giving millions to smaller teams to keep them going. baseball should look into that.
avenger
“The big teams are giving millions to smaller teams to keep them going. baseball should look into that.”
Baseball does that
I really think baseball should look into a restricted free agency option that involves a posting fee coming back to teams.
Tier it similar to Qualifying Offers where certain criteria gets certain percentages back for losing their restricted free agents.
The Dodgers spent a ton of money this off season just to try to get better than the Diamondbacks. The Yankees have to spend a ton of money themselves in an attempt to get better than the Orioles. The Rangers dumped wheel barrows full of cash to finally get past the Astros….
I would say this is kind of what baseball wants. Everyone wants to talk about competitive balance well there you have it. Small spending Orioles vs the Yankees and moderate spending Jays. Dodgers vs Diamondbacks, wide open NL Central, two big spending teams in the East trying to hold off the Marlins. Outside of the AL central, division races look great. Three teams can win the AL east, four can compete for the playoffs, NL West, two challenging for the top spot but four who can compete for the playoffs. AL West, 3 can battle for the top spot, NL East, four potential playoff caliber teams.
The only issue is that free agents have lost this year. It was a weak class to begin with but a large chunk of the “big money” was via trade and international signings.
So we all agree that the Dodgers will end up signing Snell to a 3 year $120 million contract with opt outs after each season.
all $120M deferred until 2050
De
“all $120M deferred until 2050”
Since most people who make these stupid deferral Jones only have like a high school level understanding of finance
$120 million deferred for 25 years at a 4.5% interest rate would be the equivilavt of $40,000,000 right now.
So, thinking Snell would accept $130 million deferred for that long means be couldn’t get more than $40 million now
In the same way, Ohtani’s “$70 million per year” is the same as “$46 million per year” which is both what the Dodgers have to pay every year and how much that contract counts towards the CBT.
It all works out
Time is NOT money (stupid expression) but time does change money. It’s all very complicated and may or may not involve the irrational number e.
It was a joke. But I agree, thats why Ohtani’s $70M/year is just poor reporting!
It all works out for the Dodgers, and Ohtani as he wanted to stay in LA. It doesnt all work out for the rest of the league as other players wouldn’t agree to such a deal unless it was in LA. If there were no deferrals for example, Ohtani would make more than $46M/year AAV. And other teams cant do this, because the players wont agree. Ohtani is an extreme case, as he was only ever going to play for the Dodgers.
Now there have been past deferral deals, but not to the extent the Dodgers do it. Also, 75% of teams cant afford to take the “risk” of deferrals as they don’t have the revenue of the Dodgers. There is no risk for teams with the revenue/ value of Dodgers, but small market teams probably dont have tens or hundreds of millions every year to pay players after they stop playing.
De
“If there were no deferrals for example, Ohtani would make more than $46M/year AAV.”
Why do you say that? Why did he accept $46 million a year from the Dodgers at a lower interest rate than he could probably make elsewhere?
I mean, if the argument is he took less to play with the Dodgers because he wanted to be a Dodger. Whatcha gonna do?
“to the extent the Dodgers do it. Also, 75% of teams cant afford to take the “risk” of deferrals as they don’t have the revenue of the Dodgers
…
small market teams probably dont have tens or hundreds of millions every year to pay players after they stop playing.”
All the deferrals have to be funded ahead of time. So, any team that can sign the contract can pay the deferral.
Not sure you understand deferrals at all.
The team paying the deferred salary will put the salary into an account that accrues interest. The team will actually make money over both the term of the contract and the term of the deferrals
Hopefully
That would cost them $84 million in 2024.
I will be genuinely pleased if the Boras Four go unsigned as of Opening Day.
I’m not defending the feeling, only anticipating it. Savoring it, if you will.
Take your pleasures where you find them.
Sure hope the Cubs go with youth in CF & 1B this year. Why have a great Farm System if you continue to block them with high priced FA’s? See what the youth can do and stop taking calls from Boras.
Bellinger should be signed by the Cubs to a reasonable contract because they don’t have a ready to go left handed power hitter in their farm system. He’s also a plus defender.
We disagree. Busch, Mervis PCA all LH, 2 with power. Sign Bellinger, you block two of them. How many years?
I say move on from Bellinger. He isnt worth what he is asking for. Why hasnt any other team got involved. They feel the same way. Boris’s bad mega contracts are catching up to him.
I do believe that the Cubs really want Belli, but they’re trying to get his price down by seeming not to care. I have to think they do care. They missed the playoffs with him last year.
Of course they want him but at a reasonable cost considering his inconsistency. His big chip is his glove though that has always remained strong.
The two Minor League signings yesterday, tell me a different story.
Aloha remember, I like Cody but at this point, for me, I’d only want him back on a 1-3yr contract with opt outs like Correa signed the first time with Minnesota. The farm system is finally producing more talent at the various levels and it sure would be nice to see some youth get an opportunity instead of being blocked and traded away. If Boras and Cody can’t go for it, no problem it’s business. Time to let PCA/Canario/Busch/Morel and others run with it. Mahalo!
Aloha. Is this my old friend from SF area? If so, I still have my Sonny Gray card.
Aloha Jiggs! So nice to hear from you! I still have the cool items you shared with me from the AFL and Spring Training! How are your family and friends that are Cardinal fans doing? I said to some of my St Louis friends, don’t sign Willy! He’s mainly a good bat/DH but he’s no Molina! The Central Div will be interesting this year! Take care now and be safe! Mahalo!
Don’t know how we lost touch, but very happy to hear from you. Family is great, hope yours is as well. We are no longer in AZ, back in Redbird land.
So glad you’re okay and doing well. I do miss the Carrie blog days. Unique bunch there. Happy to see you here! I’m one of the few in the minority that want to see our Cubs allow the young players a chance. So maybe this season is a little bit like 2014, then make a “splash” going into next year like they did with Lester. We’ll see! Mahalo!
I’m with you . Prefer the youth.
Aloha Jiggs, well it looks like our Cubs and Cody have agreed on a 3y deal with multiple opt outs. I was looking forward to the younger players getting the playing time. I hope Jed still allows for this to happen as Cody could opt out after this season. Mahalo!
You called it, nice thoughts.
Aloha Jiggs! So so happy that Hoyer didn’t give into Boras demands! I also feel he didn’t advise Cody well, meaning the market didn’t believe he was worth/due a contract now over $200mil. I really hope the the young players shine in AAA and when they come up to the majors and I wish Cody a strong 2024 campaign so he can opt out at the end of the year. Then PCA, etc can step in and take over. That would be tremendous! Good contract for both sides. Take care now and go Cubs! Mahalo!
Cubs out here waiting for another decade of Cardinals success to pass before doing a thing..
lol, that’s hilarious. I don’t think anyone is worried about the LAST PLACE Cardinals. I mean… maybe the Pirates? Although I think Pittsburgh will be better than the Cards again this year.
It is funny seeing all the Cards fan whining about the bums they signed to fill out the rotation this winter.
Cubs have a better team RIGHT NOW even with no more additions and a MUCH BETTER farm system than STL. So the Cards will be in the Cubs rearview for a while.
Lol. How many times in your lifetime have the Cubs been better than the Cardinals?
The Cardinals have a terrible manager and once he’s gone the team will go back to their winning ways. Somehow with Counsell the Cubs will find a way to lose. Because…they are the Cubs……
Leave it to a Cardinal whiner to bring childishness into an adult conversation.
Who is childish here???
Again how many times in your lifetime have the Cubs actually been better than the Cardinals? You tell me. Maybe you are young. I am 43.
It is childish and embarrassing. It would actually be comical if it weren’t so pathetic.
Cardinal fans over all the platforms are disgusted with Mozeliak. But you are such a meatball homer, you wanna troll Cubs fans?! Haha. Again, try Pittsburgh fans, might be a lil more of a balanced fight although truth be told; I’ll take their future over whatever sideshow is happening in STL.
Mo rushed to sign a bunch of bums to fill out an embarrassingly bad rotation when free agency started NOW guys like Montgomery and Snell are there for the taking. Too late the Cards already blew their wad on re-treads, has-beens… never-will-bes.
The Cards are LITERALLY a last place team with a bad farm system. No money left, no help on the horizon and probably primed to dump their aging “stars” at the deadline.
As far as history, which selective reasoning would you prefer? Recently, the Cubs have been better. When is the last time the Cards won a World Series? Played in the NLCS? The Cubs won in ‘16 during a window when they made 5 straight postseasons including 3 straight NLCS appearances. There are no 100 year olds on here. lol
Are you still living in the glory of the 80’s? Hahaha, half the peeps on this board weren’t even alive back then. NO ONE CARES! Whitey Herzog and Vince Coleman aren’t coming to save you. Pujols is not coming to save you. None of that has ANYTHING to do with the present.
And presently, NOW… is what matters and the Cubs have a better ML team and a MUCH better farm system AND a better financial situation than the lowly Cards.
So go ahead and get your Molina jersey cleaned and pull out your VHS tapes and reminisce about when the Cardinals were actually a relevant baseball team. Nobody cares but you.
In the meantime, the rest of us will live in the NOW…. actual reality and see which fanbase has more fun this summer… next summer and so on. Thanks so much for stopping by, it was a nice mid day laugh.
Good gosh I certainly didn’t read all that.
I think the loss of Lunhow to the Astros is what derailed the Cardinals.
Didn’t read all that too because it is exactly what he is claiming Cards fans do. Cubs have been whining about management and not being able to figure out how to out a good team together for decades. One World Series, divide the team and all of a sudden the cubs at the top team in the NL central. Haha yeah ok. Let see how this season shapes up even with their old pitchers they picked up in a year deal. Did you want to write another chapter on the bears and hawks recent success too?
Oh no, nothing childish about that.. Cause there’s nothing more mature and enlightening than the irrational spewing of a Cardinal homer.
It’s almost March. Do these guys think their market is going to get better when the season starts. It might be time for some of these guys to start to come to reality on reasonable contract numbers or they are about lose some serious money.
It worked for Machado and Harper a few years ago
None of these players are Bryce Harper or Manny Machado.
It did b/c they were mid-20s superstars. All about context. Montgomery should get a really good deal now with his relative dependability.
Argument can be made he’d get a better total guarantee if clubs trust him more to give a 6 year deal than inconsistent Snell.
Sorry you lost me at inconsistent Snell when you decided to compare him to Montgomery
Consistency matters.
It’s become more about Boras’ ego at this point.
I think Farhan said it best when he said that Boras had 3 1/2 months to work something out, it’s time to move on. (paraphrasing of course)
Yeah what are they thinking? Oh wait they see a foreign national who’s never played a game in MLB get a 330M contract.
Who is evaluated a lot higher than they are. Talent matters.
Also didn’t wait until spring training to get a deal done.
If the reporting is accurate, the Yankees offered Snell a very good deal but Boras countered with something so insane there was no need to try to negotiate. So the Yankees moved on. I’m not believing they’re still in on him. At least not at their original offer.
Bellinger is not worth a long term gamble. He bounced back last year but had two horrible seasons prior to last year. Take a nice comfortable contract and be very happy! This last dollar approach is going to cost him millions in the long run!
@Thec
All true. But is it really Belli’s ‘last dollar approach’, or Boras constantly trying to show the world how important he thinks he is. As if he is bigger than the game itself.
Wonder if Belli is unhappy/worried with not having a deal yet? If so, could he fire his agent and get a new one?
Serious question, has ANY player fired Boras??
Yes they can. I can’t remember the particulars but I do remember this happening in the last couple of years.
@cubsws2016
i can’t remember the players but there have been a few but the number is so low might as well be zero lol.
ANY player fired Boras”..Boras has been fired about a dozen times(I remember Gary Sheffield famously firing Boras)by unhappy players. Carlos Beltran went to court against Scott Boras. But, to be fair he’s been around for awhile.
@Dogbone An agent is obliged to report all offers to his client—and the player can say at ANY time, “take that offer,.” and the agent must oblige him. This is only Boras’ game if Bellinger is a near-imbecile.
It’s true that some players will have IQs in the 80-90 range and can be taken advantage of by unscrupulous agents, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here. If it’s not the case, then it’s on the player to monitor the situation, to have apprised himself of what constitutes a reasonable deal for a player of his caliber and what the risks are.
Any player going into free agency should have several independent valuations done—independent of his agent, and let those guide him at least as much as the opinion and estimates of his agent.
If the player lets his agent run his free agency off the road, then that player has done a very poor job of handling his free agency.
Machado and Harper had a better track record than these FA”s.
2 cy young’s and a league mvp are pretty good track records to have entering free agency. Yamamoto has no track record to speak of at all
Mystery
“2 cy young’s and a league mvp are pretty good track records to have entering free agency. Yamamoto has no track record to speak of at all”
Yet, Yamamoto will almost certainly be better than both of Belli and Snell (assuming that’s who you are referring to).
That’s a pretty large 330 million gamble to take on a guy who may be better than Snell.
How long until Yamamotos first TJS?
filihok
Consider this yours.
K
Constat what mine?
How long until your cancer diagnosis?
REALLY? Come on man, you’re better than that.
M
2 million Americans are diagnosed with cancer every year. What?
So, eben are you getting your diagnosis?
Tomorrow? Never? Somewhere in between?
That’s my best guess for both your diagnosis and Yamamoto’s TJ
Must
How’s my question different then yours?
M
“So you think wishing a cancer diagnosis”
Hol’ up;
Did you “wish” a Tommy John surgery on Yamamoto?
M
“Nope, I asked a factual question.
You chose to wish Cancer on someone based on 0.06% of the population.”
Hol’ up
How come yours is asking a “factual question” and mine is “wishing cancer”?
Here was your phrasing
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
Here was mine
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
What’s the difference?
Why was yours asking and mine wishing?
M
Answer the question you stupid PoS
How is what you said
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
Asking a question?
And what I said
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
Wishing cancer?
Or did you realize and are trying to back out because you’ve gone to far to admit your mistake?
I assure you that I’m a forgiving person
M
Come on, you damn coward
If you’re brave enough to make an accusation, don’t shrink away before backing it up
Here is
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
just asking?
And this
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
wishing?
Oohhhh internet tough guy.
M
Back up your accusation, you coward
If you’re going to make that kind of accusation, make it stick
YOU are the Internet tough guy running their mouth behind a screen
How is
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
just asking?
And this
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
wishing?
Come on
M
Come on tough guy/coward
If you’re brave enough to make this kind of accusation
“wishing a cancer diagnosis on someone ”
Then don’t be too much of a coward to back it up
How is
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
just asking?
And this
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
wishing?
Come on, you coward
M
Come on, you coward
If you’re brave enough behind your screen to make this kind of accusation
“wishing a cancer diagnosis on someone ”
Then defend it
How is
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
just asking?
And this
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
wishing?
Come on, you coward
Jeezus are you seriously still going. How has your mammy not taken away your computer privileges yet, it’s obvious you haven’t cleaned your room. Go do some chores and than maybe take a walk off a bridge into some traffic
Back up your pathetic accusation,
You pathetic coward
How is
“How long until Yamamotos first TJS?”
just asking?
And this
“How long until your cancer diagnosis?”
wishing?
Mystery,
2 Cy Youngs, and the rest horribly league average years.
1 MVP, and the rest below league average years
Not worth what they think theyre worth.
Vern
“2 Cy Youngs, and the rest horribly league average years.”
As I posted elsewhere
7 of his 8 sessions he’s had a better than average E$A
7 of his 8 seasons, he’s had a better than average FIP
His xFIP has been better than average 6 consecutive seasons
“the rest horribly league average years.”
Why do you believe this?
What is your idea on “horribly league average”.
1 season in his entire career with an ERA+ below 100. But yeah that’s horrible
Exactly and both managed to set a record for highest free agent deal at the time of signing.
Most of the remaining FAs are fringe players at this point., so I wouldn’t be expecting much on that front. If they sign, it would be out of desperation.
Clevinger made 8 million last year, was above average, and turned down his 12 million dollar option with the White Sox for this year. He must be hoping for at least a two year deal that more than doubles the 12 he turned down. And that’s why he’s unsigned. At age 33, he probably has to be viewed as a one year gap guy by most teams, an innings eater. Whatever he thinks his price might be, so far, the market says no thanks.
Or, he just wanted out of a TERRIBLE situation, with no hope of winning any time soon….
Clevinger may believe that with Walker and Taillon getting 4/72m and 4/68m, he should be in line for 3/40m-45m or so, and his background (152 ERA+ from 2017-2020) should accord him more than the one and two year deals he’s probably being offered. .
If Matz can get 4/44m, 3/33m has to be the absolute minimum Clevinger’s holding out for, but with a 4.61 FIP since the injury, clubs are reasonably concerned about commitments like that. Still, if Manaea can get 1/14m with a fallback player option of 1/13m if he’s terrible, can Clevinger be far behind (that deal)?
Tom Ricketts comments did no such thing, he said wasn’t getting involved with any negotiations. He poured cold water over Boras’s top negotiating strategy in the process.
Scotty two shoes loves to go to the owner and try to sway him, TR simply stated that if they want to negotiate, then talk to Jed and Carter.
Fans love to claim Ricketts is a greedy businessman but in actuality he is a passionate Cubs fan and he isn’t going to let Boras exploit his passion.
The whole “move on from Bellinger” crowd also just needs to zip it. He’s asking for too much blah blah blah. Yeah you realize he isn’t getting that much right? “Moving on” from a player you really do need is ignorant, does anyone think Bellinger is just going to sit out and not play next year? Please. He will eventually come to agreeable terms with a team and the Cubs should be in on him, and any other free agent that can help this team, until he (they) do sign.
THIS!! ^^^^^^^
drasco, I think we all agree the Cubs have been ‘in’ on Bellinger. They have given Boras a good indication of where they stand, I think we’d all probably agree on that too.
What seems to me, to be different this year – is that the Cubs are refusing to bid against themselves.
Boras doesn’t know how to deal with that. Boras expects the team to come on hands and knees.
And we all agree the Cubs would be better in 2024 with Bellinger. But if Bellinger insists on anything beyond two years, then he needs to show more consistency.
The times, hopefully, they are changing.
@Dogbone I wonder, has anyone looked into how FAs do, who join teams late?
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn they decline vis-a-vis their projections.
I agree with everything you said, Boras is used to jumping the GM and going to ownership as he has done with Ted Lerner with the Nationals and when Boras was peddling Rendon to Arte and the Angels.
The only time I’ve had issues with Tom Ricketts is when Bryce Harper was available, they should have pursued him, but that’s just my opinion. Other than that, he’s been a pretty good owner, and he’s opened up the pocketbook when needed.
Tom Ricketts said the Epstein could pursue Harper but he had to make the money work, I.e. figure out a taker for Heyward.
It was known that Epstein wanted Harper, it was just the fact we signed Heyward and Epstein blew a ton of money on horrible deals the year prior.
Heyward’s contract really deterred a lot of stuff from happening. Would have loved to have Harper as a Cub…
Yes it did but it was more the Cubs inability to develop anything that resembled a MLB pitcher and their refusal to change course.
At one point the Cubs were paying Darvish, Lester and Cole Hamels all over 20 million dollars, plus Quintana, Chatwood and Hendricks. Not to mention shelling out large contracts in the bullpen.
In hindsight, the Quintana trade never should have happened but Epstein also lacked the foresight to move him when they re-signed Hamels. The Cubs never attempted to trade from a position of strength (or weakness), move bad contracts, move a good contract to restock the farm and shed some salary, sell bad contracts with prospects.
My opinion is, you pay for three starters, you have one slot set aside for a home grown player and you seek out a retread for your last spot. If you need to add pitching at the deadline, do so but don’t get locked into high dollar AAVs and long term deals. With that said, even Hoyer tripped into that hole last year with Steele locked in, he re-signed Smyly and brought in Taillon to go with Stroman and Hendricks. Fifth spot should have went to someone else out of the gate.
@acoss13 18.4 WAR over 5 seasons, with Harper having real trouble staying on the field more than 2/3 of the time.
The Phillies are doing a little better than breaking even on the deal thus far, but no better than that, They still owe him $200m over 8 years. It may get ugly (and regrettable) fast.
There are players that sign huge contracts and go all out to live up to be the player they are expected to be and other players that sign the huge contract as a reward for what they did and just enjoy the money.. Bellinger might be the latter
For Snell, yes 2 cy youngs but he was average in the other 6 years. 75% chance each year the guy being paid mega dollars will be average….
Neither is worth the asking price,
WW
“There are players that sign huge contracts and go all out to live up to be the player they are expected to be and other players that sign the huge contract as a reward for what they did and just enjoy the money..”
Yep questions
1) who are examples of both
2) how do you know? How do you know who goes all out and who just enjoys the money?
“Bellinger might be the latter”
One question. That means me might be the forever, right?
“For Snell, yes 2 cy youngs but he was average in the other 6 years”
What?
Snell”s E$A- has been better than average in 7 out of his 8 seasons
Snell”s FIP- has been better than average in 7 out of 8 seasons
Snell’s xFIP- has been better than average in 6 consecutive seasons
It would be pretty surprising I’d his performance were average
I can guarantee that Rendon just enjoys the money
@filihok off the toop of my head, Stanton would be the posterboy, and put Rendon, Upton, Crawford, Sandoval, Corbin, Baez in there
As for Snell, if he gets his $30M per year and puts up 2016-2017, or 2019-2022 numbers noone will be happy except for Snell. His ERA+ in those 6 years was 109, Not exactly a 100 average, but not what he would be expected to do for $30M.
WW
“off the toop of my head, Stanton would be the posterboy, and put Rendon, Upton, Crawford, Sandoval, Corbin, Baez in there”
:sighs with head in hands:
You didn’t answer the more important part of the question
You gave the elementary school level response in high school
Let me ask it again
2) how do you know? How do you know who goes all out and who just enjoys the money?
Holy crap you are just a little baby. What’s with all the micro aggression. He answered your question. You are the only one who seems to have an issue with response. Like you have any clue what is going on in Someone else’s head
@filihok, this site is MLB Trade RUMORS
Rumor (Noun) “a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth”
If you want insight from folks who have first hand proof of a players efforts then you need to go to the other website
mlbtradefacts.com
If you stay on the rumors site, then what you will read are a bunch of hunches, opinions….RUMORS
M
“He answered your question.”
No be didn’t
“Like you have any clue what is going on in Someone else’s head”
This is the point
They don’t know who quit caring. They are the one claiming to know what’s going on in someone else’s head. Not me
WW
:facepalm:
That doesn’t mean that any idiot can just say whatever about a player. Read and, this is the important part, UNDERSTAND the definition that YOU just posted
How did anyone pass god damn middle school?
fiihook, learn how to read
I began this with “might be” do you understand the meaning of “might be”?
I never stated fact.
Never passed anything off as fact
grow up
WW
I mean,it’s MLB TRADE rumors
Not MLB WORK ETHIC rumors
Do you really think the point of the website is for idiot commenters to just make stuff up about players? Really? That’s what you think?
Christ what an idiot
WW he most definitely does not understand the English language, yet he’s obviously that guy who needs to use put downs t on try and prove his superiority
WW
“I began this with “might be””
Uh..
No. You did not
Here’s how you started it (as fact).
“There are players that sign huge contracts and go all out to live up to be the player they are expected to be and other players that sign the huge contract as a reward for what they did and just enjoy the money..”
And then you continued
“@filihok off the toop of my head, Stanton would be the posterboy, and put Rendon, Upton, Crawford, Sandoval, Corbin, Baez in there”
Not a “might be” in sight. Is there? Is there?
Now, you did say “might be” here.
“Bellinger might be the latter”
But that, clearly, applies only to Bellringer and but to Stanton or the others. Does it?
Think Mr Rendon has voiced that baseball is not his number one priority. It’s just his job to make money. He obviously does not go all out.
PPitH
Faulty logic
I’d wager that baseball isn’t the absolute number one priority for any healthy person. It’s not normal or desirable to put your career above EVERYTHING in your life. It’s psychotic.
The phrase “going all out”, thus, like giving 110%< is meaningless.
Nothing suggests that Rendon, one of the most talented baseball players on the planet, doesn't give enough effort is ridiculous.
I'm reminded of the idiots with their figurative pitch forks after Manny said it wouldn't be the end of the world of the Yankees beat the Red Sox in 2007.
Also, a bunch of Del Taco Managers, or whatever, criticizing an MLB player for but being deducted enough to their job is laughable.
@WampumWalloper It’s far worse than that. Snell did that when he was young and far healthier than he’s going to be in his 30s.
I wouldn’t be remotely surprised to see a couple of ordinary years followed by an absolute crash in durability, down from 120 innings a year in his non-Cy Young seasons, to a seasonal 90 innings, 7 innings, 110 innings, out for two seasons with serious arm problems, 8 innings, retires.
Bellinger will be a bust on a long term deal wherever he ends up. Would only take a risk on a one or two year deal for him.
What we are seeing is…..negotiating.. I don’t have a problem with that. Some players are going to benefit from the gamesmanship, a few will be disappointed. I wouldn’t be surprised if some owners have had private wink-and-nod discussions (not collusion, of course, they would never to that). Nor would I be surprised if Boras was trying to enhance scarcity. Let’s watch it happen.
Perhaps difference of opinion, but the last 3 seasons Montgomery looks pretty consistent.
Makes all the starts, provides more IP, no wide variance in ERA+/FIP/WHIP. Doesn’t have the sporadic high ceiling of Snell, but FOs may feel he is the safer bet on a longer term contract.
He’s going to be a far better pitcher than Snell in his 30s. His last three years have been about an inch from an average HOFer’s resume for a random three years. ERA+ on the edge of 125 over those 3 years, doesn’t miss a start….
Snell has every mark of a pitcher who is going to go Rodon at any minute. By the time he’s ready to give you a Cy Young-caliber season, his career will be over.
Boras seems unwilling to back off his $200,000,000 demand and even have a negotiation.
Newsflash: Bellinger is not getting $200,000,000.
There is a non-zero chance Snell + Bellinger combined get less guaranteed money than Yamamoto!
Wouldn’t have thought that 3 months ago. Now? It gets more likely by the day
Boras’ unsigned clients could have signed by now if they were better baseball players
Simply put, Boras represents good players and sells them as great players, great players get sold as Hall of Famers, everyone is always overvalued.
You can say that’s his job, like a realtor selling houses. But someone has to bite on the poison to get infected. And more and more teams are saying never mind. They don’t need a decade of overpaying for overvalued performance. Boras needs to change his pitch, come off his high horse, start being more like a good realtor. Sell homes, not houses.
Yes, he represents good players and gets them lots of money. But its wearing thin with owners and front offices. He needs to do a better job matching up his players with teams that would benefit from having them and stop making them pay through the nose for the privelege.
Fair price for the fair player. Because with Boras, you don’t get what you pay for and everyone has figured that out.
Again, if Bellinger didn’t get what we wanted this winter, a short term deal isn’t gonna change anything. All the big boys had money to spend this winter (LAD, NYY, CHC, etc…) and he didn’t get his number in spite of being fresh off a really good year. What’s gonna change next winter?
This is on Boras, he severely overplayed his hand.
***what HE wanted
Correa would strongly disagree with you
Bellinger is not Correa
I know, he has a league MVP award
Depending on how all the deals turn out, I think this gamesmanship into late February by Boras could have some future players choosing to go with other agencies to represent them in free agency. If Snell has to take let’s say a 1/30 contract, then he absolutely should’ve taken the Yankees offer – just for example.
I think they are slowly getting the picture. He only represents 2 of the top 5 players in last year’s draft.
The Micheal Bush trade is being undervalued. Is he a better option than Bellinger? No. But having PCA, Bush, and eventually Mervis and McGeary is. That’s their next core and payroll will still be in check by not opening the vault for Bellinger
THIS right here. Again, I’d argue that Chapman is a bigger “need” than Bellinger IF Morel proves he can’t hold down the hot corner.
The Cubs are in a great spot. A good young team with no bad contracts and one of the best farms in the league. They’re not gonna mess that up by romanticizing a reunion with Bellinger.
They waited out the SS market last winter and got Swanson for about half of what the other 3 signed for and Swanson ended up having a better all around year than all of them.
Jed knows what he’s doing. The Cubs have money to spend and they’ll continue to spend it wisely.
Bellinger will have to get his bag from the Angels or maybe SD, either way, he’ll be playing meaningless baseball games in September for the first time in his career. OR, if he really loved playing on the North Side that much, he’ll take what Jed is willing to pay him.
What I’d like to know is, how did Swanson become such a brilliant defender in his dotage??
He had four average seasons in the field out of his first six, then by DRS saved 20 runs, then 27 runs!
This kind of result at age 28 and 29 is rarer than hen’s teeth. How’d he do it, Bryzzo? Serious question. What’s the scoop??
These comments that the Cubs “need” Bellinger simply aren’t true. The Cubs are in a great spot right now. They have a good young team with no bad contracts, not a single one, and one of the best farms in the game.
One of their many top prospects (PCA) is about ready to take over in CF, they have another top prospect (recently acquired Busch) to play 1B. Bellinger is a luxury. Would he help this team? Of course, he’d help most teams, but Jed has no reason to be desperate.
Look at last offseason, everyone knew the Cubs were gonna sign one of the big 4 SS’s. Jed waited out the market and signed Swanson for damn near HALF of what the other 3 got and ended up having a better all around year than all of them.
Boras overplayed his hand. Now, instead of playing where he wants to play, Bellinger is gonna have to take the best offer he can get and play there. My guess is the Angels or maybe the Padres. Either way, for the first time in his career, Bellinger will be playing meaningless games in September.
If anything, I say Chapman would be a slightly bigger “need” and that’s only IF Morel doesn’t prove he can take over the hot corner.
Well said Bryz.
I could see Belli signing a shorter, higher avv deal due to his age of 28. He could maximize his earnings potential if he believes in himself, with yet another 3/4 year deal after that.
As far as Snell, not so much at his current age of 31, and his stock probably never being higher. He’s definitely better off getting as many years as possible.
If Bellinger hits like he did last year for two more years he could probably secure a 10 year deal worth north of 300 million.
If I were the Cubs, I’d go ahead and offer 5/100, opt out after two and if he does opt out, it triggers a 20 million buyout.
Pnp
“He’s definitely better off getting as many years as possible.”
This is a non-understanding of how contracts and money work.
More years does not absolutely mean more money.
A healthy and productive player will make more money going year by year than by signing a long-term contract.
Long-term contracts include a discount for the team for taking on risk. That’s money the players are giving up. They players get security in return.
Snell may very well be able to make more money over his career by signing a shorter term deal. Then another, then another. A long-term deal caps his earnings.
Of course Filihok, you laid out the obvious. But I expect Snell to get the best of both worlds in a deal like Bellinger just signed with op outs. Maybe a year or 2 longer deal.