Dylan Cease remains atop the list of potential trade candidates for teams seeking rotation upgrades this offseason, but White Sox general manager Chris Getz isn’t backing off on his asking price in a trade, writes ESPN’s Jesse Rogers. Other clubs who’ve spoken to the Sox about Cease tell Rogers that the ask has been “multiple” top prospects with additional lower-end talent; the Sox aren’t open to dealing two affordable years of control over their top starter for a package centered around just one top-tier prospect.
That generally aligns with prior reporting that the White Sox asked the Reds for last year’s first-round pick, Rhett Lowder, and top prospects Edwin Arroyo and Connor Phillips in exchange for Cease. Other teams have similarly balked at the idea of parting with so much talent from the top end of their system.
Rogers reports that the Braves approached the Sox and dangled infielder Vaughn Grissom, among others, but were rebuffed. Grissom instead went to the Red Sox in the Chris Sale trade. The Yankees, despite having known interest in Cease, aren’t likely to further deplete their farm after already acquiring Juan Soto (and Alex Verdugo) this offseason, per Rogers — at least not at the current asking price. Outfield prospect Spencer Jones, in particular, seems highly unlikely to be included in any potential deal, he adds. Meanwhile, Jim Bowden of The Athletic writes in his latest mailbag that talks between the Red Sox and White Sox never gained traction, thanks to Chicago’s steep ask.
Despite the lack of traction in talks thus far, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic said in a Tuesday appearance on Foul Territory that he expects Cease to be moved prior to the season. The demand for starting pitching, as Rosenthal rightly observes, clearly outpaces the supply that’s available in free agency. Beyond that, the asking price on some other pitchers rumored to be available — Jesus Luzardo, in particular — would likely be even greater than the ask for Cease. Luzardo has three years of club control as compared to Cease’s two.
Each of the Red Sox, Orioles, Yankees, Rangers, Angels, Giants, Dodgers and Padres, at the very least, could still use some degree of rotation upgrade. The Cardinals signed three free agents early in the offseason (Sonny Gray, Lance Lynn, Kyle Gibson) but were reported to have interest in Cease even after making that trio of additions.
Getz, unsurprisingly, kept things close to the vest in his public comments yesterday. The newly minted general manager rattled off a series of familiar choruses, noting that Cease would only be moved for the right deal, that there was no urgency to make a swap given his remaining club control, and specifying that the majority of the league has shown at least some level of interest in the right-hander.
Cease is coming off a down season that saw him post a 4.58 ERA with a slightly diminished 27.3% strikeout rate. That’s down only by his lofty standards; he punched out 30.1% of his opponents a year prior while pitching to a sparkling 2.20 ERA that netted him a runner-up finish in American League Cy Young voting.
While last year’s ERA was unsightly, Cease still missed bats at a high level, sat just under 96 mph in terms of average fastball velocity, and notched a well above-average 13.6% swinging-strike rate. He’s also made a full slate of starts in each of the past four seasons, leading the Majors with 109 games started since 2020. Add in that Cease is projected for an eminently affordable $8.8MM salary in arbitration this winter (courtesy of MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz) and is controllable through the 2025 season, and his appeal becomes even more apparent.
Any team to acquire Cease would surely view him as a prime rebound candidate whom they can control for two seasons before recouping some prospect value in the form of a qualifying offer. An extension with Cease always remains a possibility, albeit perhaps a faint one. Clients of the Boras Corporation tend to test the open market, though there are plenty of examples of Boras clients who have instead signed extensions (e.g. Xander Bogaerts, Jose Altuve, Stephen Strasburg, Carlos Gonzalez — among others).
Fever Pitch Guy
Just please, please, please don’t go to the Red Sox!
Speaking of, Red Sox ownership just announced for the very first time, there will be no Town Hall.
This ownership keeps looking worse and worse every year.
MafiaBass
I disagree. They need to do *something* and whatever it is is going to cost them a lot. They’re clearly not spending the money they have, so paying with prospects— particularly where there’s an abundance— is not the worst idea. I’d guess Grissom, Mayer, Rafaella, and Teel are untouchable. Other than that, find something that fits and ship them imo.
Fever Pitch Guy
Mafia – Better to buy what they can now and save the prospects for promotion to the big club or trading at the trade deadline.
Funny thing is, some people here have blasted Dombrowski for trading prospects while with the Red Sox …. at least he brought back legit star players like Kimbrel and Sale.
towinagain
Sounds like the Padres! Sox and Padres both acting similar.
Padres even raised ticket prices?! After trading Soto!
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Actually more like Sox and Giants
Fever Pitch Guy
tow – Well you know one of the Red Sox owners used to be an owner of the Padres, right? So the connection is already there! Haha!
towinagain
So true haha! Great point Fever!
rondon
Fever.. It’s one thing to trade top talent for a consistently solid player- Cease is a freaking rollercoaster- Which guy are you gonna trade TWO top prospects for? The guy he can potentially be- or the guy from last year?? The ask is too high and the price is gonna get lower the longer the White Sux wait.
deweybelongsinthehall
How low can Red Sox ownership go? No town hall? Obviously, they already see the fan revolt. Last year they tried to appease the fans by overpaying for Devers. With that card played, there’s nothing left without again opening the checkbook. I would not pay the asking price for Cease unless I didn’t believe in my farm talent. Yes, it costs to get (either dollars or talent) but Cease is coming off a down season and his price needs to reflect it. To me, only Teel and Anthony are untouchable. Ceddane is already a great fielder and I believe he will hit but he’s not a guarantee and is movable in the right deal. Cease for two years is not it.
Bostonsports85
Padres roster is in wayyyyyyyyy better condition than the redsox … And they have legit stars ..
Bostonsports85
And the rest of the prospects aren’t guaranteed either …
Fever Pitch Guy
rondon – I agree with your first point, but disagree with your second.
Yes the ask is definitely too high.
But if he has a strong first half of the season, they will be able to get a lot more for him at the trade deadline.
Basically he has to prove last year was just a fluke.
Claydagoat
Just please, please, please don’t go to the Red Sox!
Speaking of, Red Sox ownership just announced for the very first time, there will be no Town Hall.
This ownership keeps looking worse and worse every year.
Claydagoat
Better to buy what they can now and save the prospects for promotion to the big club or trading at the trade deadline.
Funny thing is, some people here have blasted Dombrowski for trading prospects while with the Red Sox …. at least he brought back legit star players like Kimbrel and Sale.
Fever Pitch Guy
dewey – I guess we shouldn’t be surprised at no Town Hall … not because of last year’s boos, but because ownership (specifically Henry) despises the fans and anything Henry or Werner says could be totally stupid and backfire, like the “full throttle” and the “players are expensive”.
It’s just a continued pattern, remember Henry hasn’t had a traditional end-of-season press conference the past two years. He’s not visible anymore, you almost never see him in the owner’s seats near the Sox dugout, he didn’t even make an onfield appearance for the Remy ceremony.
I’ve said this a million times, he won’t care about winning again unless the profit margin drops significantly. Lucky used to nudge Henry to spend because winning was important to Lucky and the minority owners. But now between Kennedy and Redbird all they care about is the bottom line.
I’m gonna keep my promise and wait another five weeks or so to see what happens, but if they don’t pick up at least a #1 SP and quality LHR there will be repercussions.
And you’re right, Cease is not the answer.
DroppedThirdStrike
Padres have nice players attached to really long and unattractive contracts. A couple of those contracts have little to no value. A couple have negative value. That’s not bad if you have the money to supplement that talent and make a run at a title. They don’t and are subtracting talent. They’re in way worse shape than the Sox
deweybelongsinthehall
Fever, it’s a gamble. If, if, if. Should he have a similar season as 23, his trade value plummets.
deweybelongsinthehall
Very sad to see the change in ownership. I’ve been a Yawkey defender because the world was different then and the Yawkey I remember (from 68 on) was not a visible racist and he did so much good for the city of Boston. Henry brought a winner to Boston but that good will evaporated.
Whifff
Rondon….if nobody wants to make it worth their while, I think the White Sox are fine keeping Cease and seeing if they can compete in baseball’s worst division. 82 games probably wins it so at some level, why not give give that a whirl rather than give a talent away? That’s exactly what they are doing.
Domingo111
I actually think getting a good return in selling was one of the few things the old regime did well.
The returns for sale, quintana and Eaton where great and even the giolito return was quite nice.
Imo the sox front office should wait until someone bites, it only takes one.
Cease is somewhat risky due to his not so great command but he also has great stuff and is young and under control.
Maybe the sox need to come down a little in their asking price but not much so.
Just wait until snell and Montgomery are gone and hope one of the losers gets nervous.
Or maybe even wait until the deadline and hope that one of the big spenders like LA, new york and so on has an injury and is in desperate need.
I would prefer a trade before the season starts though but the sox are in no rush, there are more teams in need than there are quality options available, everyone needs starters.
luckyh
You can’t sustain that though and have to rebuild. They have restocked their farm and can hopefully get something done. They did try to get some guys. Offering over $300 million isn’t cheaping out. They’ve been in the mix.
Fever Pitch Guy
Dropped – You are 100% correct and make an excellent point. The Red Sox have much more payroll flexibility and better revenue generating potential. They have only one likely bad contract, Story.
I won’t call the Devers contract bad because he’s basically an infielder version of Manny Ramirez, and I don’t know anybody who called Manny’s contract bad just because he wasn’t a good outfielder.
Yoshida I’m convinced will have an OPS of at least .850 this season. He will DH more and will have normal rest prior to the regular season, unlike last year when he played in the WBC. Seiya had a huge rebound season last year, I expect the same from Yoshida.
JoeBrady
there will be no Town Hall.
This ownership keeps looking worse and worse every year.
=================================
One of the things that has annoyed me about Henry, even in the best of times, was that he’d show up every time we won, and leave Tito and Theo out there every time we lost.
But that said, I have no clue as to when and how a Town Hall thing occurs. I couldn’t care less what Henry and the rest of the FO has to say.
Just have Breslow and Cora speak to the press once every couple of weeks.
rondon
Fever… True, but I think there’s risk either way. If he has a strong first half, his value is up. But if he doesn’t? I personally think they should keep him. They need guys like that to anchor their reboot.
Fever Pitch Guy
Joe – If you mean show up for the Town Halls, I can attest he’s attended every one … until now. I went to these things in Springfield, Foxwoods, and even earlier when there was only a couple hundred fans at a Town Hall and nothing else. Even after the events, he would hang around and talk with the fans. I have also had my picture taken with him.
So no, he wasn’t always like this. He’s simply changed. Whether it’s due to age, married life, the expanding FSG portfolio, or the fans and media wearing on him, he’s just not the same guy. A lot of people change over the years, it’s not that uncommon.
Fever Pitch Guy
rondon – Agreed, there’s always risk … not just in baseball, but in life. Best you can do is minimize the risk as much as possible, which is why I’m not crazy about these decade plus contracts that have been given out to players with very little or no MLB experience.
luckyh
Repercussions? Someone is quite full of themselves.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I saw an article that mentioned Mike Clevinger was interested in pitching for Boston.
deweybelongsinthehall
Probably just looking for a team. Small deal with incentives but otherwise no due to his health.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I’d take a chance on Clevinger
99CaptainJudge99
Yeah Clevinger wants to sign with the Red Sox. I see Clev as a low risk/high reward signing if he’s healthy. He’s definitely probably worth it.
Occams_hairbrush
If you mean show up for the Town Halls, I can attest he’s attended every one … until now. I went to these things in Springfield, Foxwoods, and even earlier when there was only a couple hundred fans at a Town Hall and nothing else. Even after the events, he would hang around and talk with the fans. I have also had my picture taken with him.
So no, he wasn’t always like this. He’s simply changed. Whether it’s due to age, married life, the expanding FSG portfolio, or the fans and media wearing on him, he’s just not the same guy. A lot of people change over the years, it’s not that uncommon.
Rob Schumann
Agreed but they don’t need a missing piece addition like Cease. The Red Sox need a solid affordable veteran to anchor their staff for a couple of years. Someone like Marcus Stroman would be my pick for them. He will only cost money and has been affective in the AL East. Then take a flyer on someone like Manaea who has been a beast pitching in New York when he was with Oakland. They might not get to the playoffs but beating the Yankees always seems to lift their fans spirits. Maybe that will be enough while Breslow builds his idea of a winner.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I’m sorry but I don’t trust either Stroman or Manaea and both will cost a lot. I’d rather take my chances with Clevinger
solaris602
Manaea signed with the Mets last week.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
That’s right. I get Manaea and Montas confused all the time.
luckyh
No Stroman. He seems like a handful and not a leader.
seth3120
It’s just a lot. The White Sox want something comparable to the Shelby Miller to the Diamondback package. Sure I’d love Cease with 2 years of control especially with the price of pitching on the market but I still don’t think he’s worth half of a farm system he’s good but not that good
Trollfree
When it comes to a town hall don’t be surprised to find out that it was Breslow’s idea. Does it sound like an idea stemming from a group of guys who have taken an “I could care less” attitude for four long years? NOPE.
It sounds like an attempt by a new guy to regain fan support.
Cease to Boston? Fever, you can relax that’s not going to happen. It’s just reporter churn on a slow week.
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – Not a chance, Breslow wanted to be introduced to Red Sox Nation and would have been warmly received. It was the booing and heckling last year, combined with Henry’s inappropriate comments, that caused them to back out. Everyone else could have still done the Town Hall if Breslow didn’t want to attend, he could have easily used negotiations as an excuse for not attending.
acoss13
Fever,
If it makes you feel better, and no offense to the fine folks of Oakland, but the Athletics have John Fisher literally giving his fans the middle finger. Also as a White Sox fan, we have Jerry Reinsdorf, an incredibly lame owner that is literally peddling a Triple A team to us and hoping we keep tuning to watch in 2024.
As for Cease, he’s pretty good his numbers were off in 2023, this is true, but 2023 is when the wheels completely came off on the White Sox, so he’s going to be more to his 2022 form on a better team.
Fever Pitch Guy
acoss – I know, there’s equally bad owners like Bruce Sherman, Bob Nothing, Stu Sternberg, etc ….
uvmfiji
Sherman might be David Tepper bad
Joe Kerr
I’d rather have Tepper than Reinsdorf. At least he cares. Better than Donald Sterling..
Claydagoat
I agree with your first point, but disagree with your second.
Yes the ask is definitely too high.
But if he has a strong first half of the season, they will be able to get a lot more for him at the trade deadline.
Basically he has to prove last year was just a fluke.
stymeedone
He’s called a rebound candidate for a reason. Getz better realize that before he loses all value. If his numbers were bad last year because of the team, is this years team going to be any better?
Occams_hairbrush
When it comes to a town hall don’t be surprised to find out that it was Breslow’s idea. Does it sound like an idea stemming from a group of guys who have taken an “I could care less” attitude for four long years? NOPE.
It sounds like an attempt by a new guy to regain fan support.
Cease to Boston? Fever, you can relax that’s not going to happen. It’s just reporter churn on a slow week.
Dogbone
I hope Getz keeps holding out, and holding out, and holding out, and . . . . .
99CaptainJudge99
Fever-shocked you don’t want Cease on the Red Sox. I know he’s coming off a bad year. I hear you in regards to ownership though. I know how all that works and it’s definitely frustrating. Hang in there.
Fever Pitch Guy
Cap – Thanks, yes it is frustrating.
Here’s the thing, if the Sox didn’t sign Giolito then I’d be more open to trading for Cease. But now? There’s only one SP slot available and it needs to be a true #1 SP.. Without it, Sox aren’t going anywhere.
luckyh
Still hoping for Montgomery. It’ll be an overpay, but why not? They’ve missed out on too many.
Trollfree
luckyh – Very likely that Monty returns to Rangers since Scherzer’s money drops off after 2024.
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – You sure about that? I think I picked them to sign Monty too, but they already announced they wouldn’t give out any more big contracts this offseason. Unlike the Red Sox, the Rangers are reputable and keep their word.
Trollfree
Fever – They have $36MM under the cap. Monty won’t be that much. The rest of the team looks awesome. They should be the favorites for 2023 but they won’t be because LAD will have bought that spot but I think it’s 50/50 they win their division. Texas only has Houston and I think at this point Texas has the edge in hitting, fielding and even pitching if they get Monty.
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – Rangers are just $9M under the threshold, keep in mind deGrom is included at $37M. I’m guessing they want to have a little cushion for the trade deadline.
I agree!! With a healthy deGrom and The Great Nate I can see the Rangers going deep into the postseason, that’s the greatest 1-2 combination since Schilling and Pedro!
Ghost of Randy Marsh
Agreed. I loved J Henry when he purchased the Red Sox. He hired the right people, and they spent money to win.
This version of the man and his vision is unrecognizable. I believe he’s financially strapped, the pandemic wreaking havoc on his investments so much so that he’s unable or unwilling to invest in the product. That being the case, I hope he sells the Sox and soon.
For too many years prior, we’ve had some really clueless owners. Henry is sliding in that direction. .
Fever Pitch Guy
Ghost – Great post! Yeah a lot changed when Redbird paid $750M for their 10% share of FSG. But it had to be done so Henry could realize his dream of Fenway Corners. Now with the new shareholders demanding net profits, and funds being used for the Corners, winning is no longer a priority. But I do believe Henry is intent on getting out of the cellar, because perennial last place finishes is hurting the brand the value of the franchise.
Funny thing is, Liverpool fans are furious with Henry for the same reason – his cheapness.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Don’t think you can deny his 4 championships no matter what you say.
Americanentropy
Isn’t Urias now available since his legal problems are well no longer an impingement to playing next year.
getrealgone2
CA might still charge him with a misdemeanor. Then after all that’s settled then MLB has to punish if they want.
Joel P
A misdemeanor is nothing. There is a giant chasm of difference between a misdemeanor and a felony.
martras
All that matters in this regard is how long the suspension will be. Bauer didn’t get arrested or charged with anything and hadn’t had a prior suspension for domestic violence.
No matter what happens, Urias will get at least a 1 year suspension, and probably much more than that.
TrumboRedux
All that matters is the act he committed. Wait till the video comes out!! They couldn’t bury this video like the last one.
Cam
Definitely a difference in real life between a felony and a misdemeanor, but not in baseball world. As mentioned by martras, Bauer wasn’t charged with anything, had a clean record, and MLB smacked him heavily.
Urias is a repeat offender – he won’t be in anyone’s rotation for a while.
Joel P
You compare all future suspensions to the Bauer suspension and good luck making sense of anything ever again.
Joel P
And as I just said to Martras using Bauers suspension as a baseline for future suspensions is ridiculously stupid. The fact that Bauer was suspended for EXACTLY the same number of games he had missed screams total nonsense.
martras
@Joel P – There’s no need to compare the length of the suspension to Bauer.
Urias had a prior suspension for 20 games (with no criminal charges or convictions in 2019).
Urias is going to be convicted, make no mistake about that. If you’re charged with a crime in the United States, there’s about a 93% chance you’ll be convicted.
Even if he isn’t charged and convicted, he’ll spend at least a year suspended based on being a repeat offender.
Joel P
Being charged with a misdemeanor means NOTHING. A felony is a serious offense a misdemeanor is not that’s a very simple definition of the law.
He hasn’t been charged correct? So why are you saying “make no mistake” he will be convicted when he hasn’t even been charged yet.
Yes being a repeat offender matters and matters a lot. And yes because of that he will probably be suspended for additional games. But he’s already missed a bunch of games.
What do YOU think is a fair punishment?
The correct answer is you don’t know.
Macbeth
Joel, Bauer didn’t get charged at all and lost 1.5 years.
Joel P
Yes and that was total nonsense. As I said if you compare everything to the Bauer suspension nothing will ever make any sense ever again.
stymeedone
In the legal system, yes. All charges were dropped on Chapman, but MLB still suspended him. Until its completely settled in the legal system, and MLB makes its ruling, nobody is touching him.
stymeedone
But he still has lawsuits pending. Plus the arbitor, the ONLY person who heard both sides of the story, still felt Bauer was deserving of the longest suspension in MLB History, even while reducing it. Bauer has taken no action on that ruling because he doesn’t want MLBs information becoming public.
Joel P
Bauer has taken no action on that ruling because baseball in America is a monopoly and he wants back in.
You truly think that the suspension being EXACTLY the number of games Bauer missed was a random coincidence?
Come on
TrumboRedux
Joel, You know that MLB leadership hates him right? Hates him with a deep passion in fact.
Fever Pitch Guy
Joel – Tell that to Missy Misdemeanor Elliott.
DroppedThirdStrike
And then you have to deal with the PR fallout. And then plug him into a rotation 18 months after he last pitched…to a 4.60 ERA.
luckyh
Don’t want a guy who likes to choke women. If the Red Sox were to sign him, which I don’t think they’d ever do, I would be done with them after a lifetime of being a fan. Y’all can go on with it’s consensual and he was never charged, but no.
Trollfree
Guys – Bauer got clobbered and didn’t break the law or do something very wrong to a family member. If the commissioner goes light on Urias I will be very very disappointed after what he did to Bauer. Remember, the new rule was domestic violence protecting family members and others involved in behavior that reflects badly on baseball.
Wife issues compared to legal after hours bizarre behavior should be a much more egregious act. Consistency suggests Urias should be back until 2026 at the earliest.
Occams_hairbrush
Better to buy what they can now and save the prospects for promotion to the big club or trading at the trade deadline.
Funny thing is, some people here have blasted Dombrowski for trading prospects while with the Red Sox …. at least he brought back legit star players like Kimbrel and Sale.
Occams_hairbrush
Bauer got clobbered and didn’t break the law or do something very wrong to a family member. If the commissioner goes light on Urias I will be very very disappointed after what he did to Bauer. Remember, the new rule was domestic violence protecting family members and others involved in behavior that reflects badly on baseball.
Wife issues compared to legal after hours bizarre behavior should be a much more egregious act. Consistency suggests Urias should be back until 2026 at the earliest.
Occams_hairbrush
Not a chance, Breslow wanted to be introduced to Red Sox Nation and would have been warmly received. It was the booing and heckling last year, combined with Henry’s inappropriate comments, that caused them to back out. Everyone else could have still done the Town Hall if Breslow didn’t want to attend, he could have easily used negotiations as an excuse for not attending.
Ghost of Randy Marsh
Not to be contentious, but is that percentage based on fact or conjecture?
To be sure, I don’t know.
southi
He is a two time violater of the domestic abuse policy (or I should say is likely to be). I don’t see anyone taking a chance on him in today’s culture if that proves to be the case.
RunDMC
PR department would need a raise.
Robertowannabe1
The existing PR Department might just quit en masse. The signing team would need to spend massive money to hire replacements. 😉
Trollfree
Robert – You underestimate the sliminess of PR departments!!
Robertowannabe1
LOL!!
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – So true!!!
Do you remember many years ago Dr. Charles Steinberg, he was Executive VP of the Red Sox and he did a lot to keep the PR department in line. They could use him now, Red Sox PR is awful.
HalosHeavenJJ
He needs to deal with MLB first. Even a misdemeanor will warrant some length of extension.
Also, the DA in LA is crazy soft and California actually treats some domestic violence charges as non violent despite the term “violence” literally being in the name.
So, not getting punished in LA/CA and being innocent are two completely different things.
Four4fore
Won’t a conviction of any kind put his VISA in jeopardy?
HalosHeavenJJ
Good point. I’d forgotten about that. He is a foreign national.
So add that to his worries.
Joel P
What???
HalosHeavenJJ
domestic violent offenders are considered non violent when it comes to punishment, which allows them to get out of jail/prison quicker. It also allows them easier terms of release.
This despite the fact domestic violence is a major precursor to a host of more serious crimes such as murder and mass shootings.
Joel P
Domestic violence is complicating. We don’t throw people in prison for it unless it’s very serious and from everything I understand this was not.
Owning guns is a major precursor to shootings. So why is gun ownership legal?
HalosHeavenJJ
Some dudes beat up women and some don’t. Those same dudes tend to commit more violent crimes.
Correctly labeling those violent people as being violent would make it more difficult for them to buy guns and easier for police to keep them away from their victims..
It isn’t that hard or complicated. Especially for a repeat offender like we’re discussing here.
Joel P
You say repeat offender. He was suspended for 20 games because he pushed a female to the ground at a mall parking lot. She didn’t want to press charges. She had no injuries whatsoever.
Is that beating up a woman?
HalosHeavenJJ
He put his hands on a woman with intent to harm her. That’s a line in the proverbial sand that few men cross.
Fortunately she wasn’t injured that time. And many women don’t prosecute their income source.
But there’s absolutely no denying domestic violence is a violent offense (hence being called violence) and a major red flag for future violent crimes.
I don’t understand an argument defending domestic violence or wanting it treated the same as a speeding ticket.
Joel P
Who said he intended to harm her? You said that doesn’t make it true. If that was 2 guys and that had happened the cop would have warned them and that would have been that. But because it’s a woman it’s violence?
I am a big believer in women’s rights. Fair treatment. My wife is a very capable person and she works harder than I do.
HalosHeavenJJ
He freaking shoved her. That’s putting your hands on a person with violent intent no matter how you slice it.
Yes, if a guy shoves another guy it generally leads to a fight.
Very few guys will ever shove a woman.
Joel P
You are being overly dramatic. I have said enough here good day.
luckyh
If it happened to your wife or daughter I’m guessing your reaction would be quite different. These justifications and excuses are beyond infuriating. Do you go around pushing women?
luckyh
You are very dismissive, and make excuses for these athletes. Part of the enabling culture that keeps it going.
l9ydodger
HalosHeavenJJ,,,,,,, so true, so true!
Jake1972
Then add in Castro and Russell in and you have a team to beat with.
Joe says...
Chapman is out there.
Fever Pitch Guy
davey – You mean like an Oakland Raiders version of a baseball team?
Well the Indians team in the Major League movie … Wild Thing was fresh out of prison after all.
citizen
and Ozuna with Champan closing. What a punch into the post season that would be.
a 1-2-3-4-5 punch team.
LordD99
Domingo German can help build out depth.
MacGromit
@ Davey
A COVID bubble couldn’t protect the citizens of that city.
Niekro floater
Imagine their groupies loitering post game near players parking lot exit … ball game n a circus.
Cknyc
i have complete confidence that cashman will absolutely do squatcrap and say the asking price was to steep
Yankee Clipper
Yep, “values didn’t match up with what the Yankees feel is his value.”
Joe says...
Prepare for Stroman to be in pinstripes (if Cashman will do at least that much)..
Yankee Clipper
Ooof, Joe….I am not a fan of that move. I think it would be a repeat of Donaldson.
Joe says...
I don’t think it would be as bad as Donaldson but I agree, Stroman ain’t the guy I want either. Which means the Yankees are guaranteed to sign him.
Yankee Clipper
Joe, I fear it will be another prime example of Cashman “saving money” in a lesser candidate instead of just spending on the candidate they should acquire (Whether you feel that’s Snell, Monty, Cease, Luzardo or whomever), which will end up costing the Yankees just as much or more than if they got the right guy in the first place. Naturally, the performance level will suffer for the team as well.
Cashman cannot resist a “good deal” and will fall for it every single time in spite of himself.
yankee766766
Cllpper you are on point with Cashman…cannot “resist a good deal”……..A good deal to him in this case is about a pitcher who was really good once upon a time…..but has slowly deteriorated…….Stroman is not horrid, he simply is on the downside of his career…..Post All star game last year his era was 8.63. BA against was .,327. ..And alexander agree 100% Cease is very overrated. 2 yrs ago he was insanely good……but his other 4 years he was not good at all…not even fair. People just seem to be so enamored with his K rate……But in reality it’s just an out ..Oh but he ‘s under team control for 2 more yrs…….another “good deal” huh??? Would never give up the prospect haul CHW are asking…….that is just something NYY cannot afford…..on a not so sure thing
GRAVER NY
…………. ………. ……….
AM21
I don’t think much of Cashman, but he’d be right. Cease is insanely overrated.
Salzilla
In this case, I have no problem with that. Cease absolutely isn’t worth the asking price.
Occams_hairbrush
You underestimate the sliminess of PR departments
2183281
Cease isn’t good enough to command that kind of offer.
drasco036
Actually he is.
This isn’t a deadline move, it’s a move with two full years of control for starters. If you’re trading a star at the deadline, the return is a prospect with an equal ceiling plus prospects if there is any financial surplus.
So with Cease the ask for just Cease is going to be two prospects with similar upside (2 years) plus another prospect(s) for the surplus value. Estimated arbitration cost is 8.3 million, let’s say 15 million for his last year. His WAR value the past two seasons combined is 65 million, that’s still over 40 million in surplus value for two seasons, that’s another top 100 guy. You’re actually looking at ANOTHER prospect, depending on how deep the farm system is, in the 20-30 range due to the DPC if/when he walks.
Simm
Now do it based on last year. He has had one and I mean only one great year. The rest of his career he has been a number 3 starter. That’s what he is worth and if he goes to the deadline as he did last year he will be worth far less than now. Big gamble by the Sox based off his checkered past. I certainly wouldn’t not give multiple top prospects. One and a flyer is about that he is worth and maybe not that at the deadline.
drasco036
His entire body of work suggest 2/3.
I don’t disagree with people saying it’s too much for them, it’s too much for me as well but I’m stingy. However, if you’re looking at a comp, it’s what I suggested. Cease last year had a 3.71 FIP which is a three but, like it or not, he strikes out over 200 batters per season which will get him viewed, paid and valued as a 2. FanGraphs had his value last year at 29.5 million, the two years before were over 35 million.
Teams think the White Sox will sell low but Getz is telling them to get bent. He has the leverage from now all the way until next years trade deadline.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Simm, he’s been more consistent than a lot of people realize. Over the past three years, fWAR of 4.5, 4.4, 3.7. FIP of 3.41, 3.10, and 3.72. 2023 was a down year, but he didn’t fall off a cliff. His ERA was impacted by a .330 BABIP, vs his career .297. Put him in front of a better defense and you should see someone at least halfway between 2022 and 2023 Cease, but that gap is not as big as some of you seem to believe.
That said, I do think Getz needs to come down a little on his price and lean more toward position players, but Cease is still plenty valuable, so it’s not like Getz needs to halve his ask or more.
1984wasntamanual
Was 2023 a down year or a continuation of a decline? I don’t think anyone is saying he fell off a cliff, they’re saying that Getz is valuing him as an ace, which he is not.
Simm
War is high because he pitches a lot innings. That doesn’t make him and ace like they are valuing him as. He has had one ace year and as you pointed out that year was just very good fip and wise.
When you see the numbers jump and see the velo go down that is a good combo. I actually would say they are asking for double his value. 2 top guys and two others. He is worth 1 top guy and 1 other.
astick
No, he isn’t.
drasco036
That’s why I come here. Great insight and well thought out response. Kudos on your good work.
stymeedone
If your trading a star…
But you’re not. You’re trading Dylan Cease. He’s had one all star season, and the rest have been ho-hum. He’s a top player on one of the worst teams in Baseball. Maybe he’s considered a star in Chi town, but unless you’re trading him to the Cubs, its not going to get you much.
Fever Pitch Guy
stymee – Agreed! One thing I’ve noticed over the years, players on the trade block tend to get overhyped quite often. It’s weird, maybe there’s an assumption the player will perform better in a new environment. That doesn’t happen very often however.
yankee766766
Drascoo…..I think you’re savant…you lost me and bored me with whatever metric comment you’re talking about. did you figure out these abstract comments on your own?….How about let’s just ask the question…..is his talent worthy of giving up these prospects…..stop with the team control….Team control would just be a wonderful perk for the answer to that question
iverbure
Stop with the team control? Man fans have no idea how players are valued and most of it depends on control and contract. Much more than the stats they put up. If you need any evidence of that go back and look at recent trades and your own comments. If you felt like a team gave up too much, do the research if you’re smart enough and figure out how many years of control the guy had.
drasco036
Savant no, more intelligent than you, probably. More baseball knowledge, definitely.
Occams_hairbrush
Tell that to Missy Misdemeanor Elliott.
King Floch
Yup, Getz is out of his mind here.
He’s already painted himself into quite the cramped little corner to start his tenure as Chicago’s GM- he either has to very visibly and obviously bend the knee or run the risk of Cease’s value going down even further prior to the trade deadline.
drasco036
Teams are just trying to see if Getz will flinch.
If ownership mandated a reduction in payroll, then Getz will take the best offer. If they have not, he won’t flinch on what he wants because if Cease pitches well, his value will be even higher at the trade deadline. Right now, teams can hem and haw because Montgomery, Snell and some others are still available. Trade deadline they cannot.
King Floch
Eh, you have a higher opinion of Dylan Cease than 29 MLB GMs it would seem.
We’ll see how Getz’s gambit turns out. Maybe he’ll end up looking like a genius if he holds out into the season, and Cease stays healthy and pitches like an ace, and there really is a “3 top 100 prospects PLUS” package out there for Cease in July, but I wouldn’t personally hold my breath.
drasco036
I don’t like Cease but my personal opinion doesn’t matter.
Just because no one has paid Getz price doesn’t mean it’s not fair. It’s that they are not desperate and are hoping the White Sox are desperate to move him.
Right now GMs are dealership shopping because there are options on the table. They keep circling back because they really want Cease and keep hoping Getz will come down but Getz has all the leverage. He doesn’t need to trade Cease and won’t need to trade him until next years deadline.
King Floch
“Am I out of touch?”
“No, it’s the other 29 GMs who are out of touch!”
I dunno, man. We’ll see. Hopefully the O’s will stay out of the bidding if it’s going to get that silly for 2 years (or 1.5 at the deadline) of a mid-rotation starter that barely goes 5 innings per start.
Big whiffa
Ok, so name a team from the list above that will be willing to pay that kind of asking price and a general idea of prospects attached. Bc right now today if we use that same metric then Wyatt lankford would have well over a 100 million is surplus value. And some of these other sure fire prospects like Merrill from SD would be close to 80 mil
stymeedone
There will be others available at the deadline, too.
Big whiffa
Getz says before the season. And if he’s worth 80 million. Then his value would diminish 20 million 1/2 into next season.
melfman1
Your arguments don’t hold water buddy… his 2 years of control are only helpful if he’s a solid starter. This past year his ERA was 4.58 (38th best in league) his WHIP was 1.42 (42nd best in league) based mostly on his 79 walks (6th highest in the league). Those numbers aren’t very far off from those of his former teammate Lucas Giolito. Giolito available on the market for just cash was only able to secure a 2 year/$38 million pay day, which most considered an overpay. So, in my opinion, when you consider that he’ll probably make $25 million or so through arbitration in the next two years… his surplus value is really closer to $15-20 million max. Should he rebound to his 2022 self, that could change of course. But it’s a mistake to pay players (or trade prospects) hoping to match an outlier season.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Numbers aren’t close. Last two years have Giolito at 1.8 and 1.0 fWAR. Cease at 4.4 and 3.7. FIP last two years is Giolito at 4.06 and 5.27, while Cease is at 3.10 and 3.72. Cease is far more valuable.
Fever Pitch Guy
King – In all fairness, these days starting pitchers are conditioned to go only 5 innings. They are told to throw as hard as they can, max effort for 5 innings, and then turn it over to one of the eight relievers on the team. Plus there’s this belief that pitchers always suck after facing a lineup twice in a game.
Ironically if the pitchers weren’t conditioned to go only 5 innings, they probably wouldn’t suck third time through the lineup.
NoPlanB
The Dodgers are still after him. It won’t be long.
FanOfTheUmpires
Bring Big Chris (Sale) back to the White Sox this season for a reunion and for the playoff run.
cpdpoet
(insert inane scissors joke here)
Dotnet22
Cut…it…out…
Myleswarts
Really don’t understand why the Sox are trading him. Sign him. Ya got the money. Rough year last year but yeesh.
Fever Pitch Guy
Myles – What if Cease’s rough year is repeated in 2024? Like Giolito and his two consecutive horrible seasons?
The phrase is buy low, sell high. Chicago can’t expect to sell high after the season he just had. Let him re-establish his value and THEN trade him at the deadline or next offseason.
melfman1
I totally agree. The fact that the Chicago GM isn’t waiting for him to improve and deal him at the deadline, leads me to think that they aren’t optimistic that he will regain his prior glory. Anyone who pays the requested premium for him now should have their head examined. As a Yankee fan, I wouldn’t trade any of our top 5 guys for him. I’d rather take a flier on Shane Bieber who at least has a longer history of success.
acoss13
Cease isn’t the problem, it’s that the White Sox have no farm, no player development, and no real hope on the big league roster to either do a retool, or do another teardown. A teardown sadly is what they should be doing, and Cease and Robert would be the only trade chips to bring young talent back. Even then, a teardown will make me skeptical of them developing young prospects…
Aiden Awe
Why rebuild if you know the last one failed. Sox should be competing in 2025/2026, they won’t trade LRJ, he could be on the next good Sox team tbh. I agree with Cease needing to go. Sox are ranked #20-23 in farm system rankings, not great nor the worst. Last trade deadline they got some decent prospects like Edgar Quero, Nick Nastrini, etc.
Claydagoat
What if Cease’s rough year is repeated in 2024? Like Giolito and his two consecutive horrible seasons?
The phrase is buy low, sell high. Chicago can’t expect to sell high after the season he just had. Let him re-establish his value and THEN trade him at the deadline or next offseason.
Occams_hairbrush
What if Cease’s rough year is repeated in 2024? Like Giolito and his two consecutive horrible seasons?
The phrase is buy low, sell high. Chicago can’t expect to sell high after the season he just had. Let him re-establish his value and THEN trade him at the deadline or next offseason.
l9ydodger
across13,,,,,,, I agree, the White Sox should get the absolute most that they can for Cease & Luis Robert Jr. Just like the Cardinals should be doing with Arenado & Goldschmidt. Neither team is going to win or dominate over the next 2 years and then they won’t be able to give those players away.
Myleswarts
Definitely think the Sox could compete with some decent FA signings. They got the money. Shouldn’t blow it up. -Guardians Fan
stymeedone
Why would Cease want to sign with this sinking ship?
jvent
The White Sox are nuts for what they’re asking for Cease, just keep him than.
drasco036
They are not if they just want 3 top 100 guys.
Cease is a 2 with 1 potential that equates to a 55 FV
Additional year of control equates to another 55 FV
40 million in surplus value equates to another 50-55 FV
QO capable equates to a 45-50 FV
I’m not sure how you determine “trade value” but that is pretty accurate. If you don’t want to pay the price, don’t or negate the surplus value by taking a negative value guy like Moncada.
martras
Are you attempting to use Fangraphs’ overall prospect rating to evaluate player trade value? If so, lets go ahead and re-do your calculation.
White Sox
Cease = 55×2 FV
QO = 50 FV
Total = 160 FV
Reds
Arroyo = 50×6 FV
Phillips = 45×6 FV
Lowder = 50×6 FV
Total = 870 FV
In any case, Baseballtradevalues.com has the ask for Cease as lopsided in favor of the White Sox with a surplus of 49 MM vs. 40 MM, but the site probably undervalues Lowder by quite a bit. I’d say the trade is more like 65 MM to the White Sox vs. 40 MM to the Reds.
Trollfree
martras – I’d feel more comfortable if you just said what you thought rather than bringing in all those inaccurate estimates. I bet your baseball feel would be just as accurate.
RunDMC
Really think ATL’s best offer would have been AJ Smith-Shawver, Vaughn Grissom and 2 other minor pieces for Cease, but Grissom was made less necessary after already trading Nicky Lopez (via Bummer trade). Don’t blame Getz for sticking to his guns — sounds like his ancestors were also a GM once upon a time and stuck to their guns.
SoCalBrave
The offer from the Braves was Grissom, Elder, one of Murphy/Ritchie, and one of Owens/Winans/Braun
The White Sox countered with AJSS, Waldrep, Tavares and another prospect.
The next day AA got Sale.
178iq
He’s not going anywhere. They are asking so much that you realize he isn’t available.
Dotnet22
Cardinals need this guy but I’m sure they won’t get him. He would be the Ace for years to come once they signed him long term. They’ll instead go with a 2, a 3, and 3 #5’s.
Four4fore
If both Cease and Luzardo are available I don’t think Cease should be the Cardinals target.
slowcurve
These hypothetical trade scenarios never cease to amaze me.
maxmadsen
Reds should have taken that deal. They’re ready to contend now without those guys and Cease could have put them over the top.
1984wasntamanual
Over the top of what?
HalosHeavenJJ
I can see a Spring Training trade happening here. Somebody will lose out on the remaining free agents and/or have an injury and get a little more desperate.
slider32
Nobody is giving up what Getz is asking for Cease, he is just spinning his wheels.
maxmadsen
They will at the Trade Deadline then.
melfman1
Not if he has another 4.58 era first half, they won’t.
Joel P
Cease to the Cubs for Alcantara, Wicks, Gray and Davis.
The Orioles probably make the most sense they have a big need they won’t want to spend to sign a big free agent and they definitely have prospects to trade.
Reds make some sense. Yankees perhaps. I don’t think there are a ton of teams in on him but there are enough.
stymeedone
Orioles will sign Lorenzen. He won’t strike out as many as Cease, but he’s pitch more innings.
Rsox
Getz doesn’t have to back down and can probably get more for Cease at the trade deadline if his numbers are decent. This is a case of shopping a player without actually having to move him just to see what you could get
Joel P
I think the White Sox know they need to move him at some point. But yes if he performs well in the first half teams will be lining up at the deadline. The flip side is if he doesn’t they won’t and the deals available now will probably be better.
Rsox
Its definitely a gamble
RunDMC
If he doesn’t perform well, teams will still want him based on his pedigree and 1 addt year of control (2025) also hoping they may be getting a relative deal, but I’d bet CHW wouldn’t be interested in selling low on him. They could also justify spending a little bit more on him considering that they could get back a prospect via comp pick by extending a QO (and he doesn’t re-sign), which they couldn’t do if they traded for him during 2025 season.
MacGromit
I don’t see what they are reported to ask from the Reds happening or an equivalent with any of the other suitors. I get that SP is at a premium but Cease doesn’t have the track record to garner that in return. I can see him going at the deadline for much less as he’d lose too much value if they waited until after the ’24 season.
stymeedone
…if his numbers are decent.
If he repeats last year, then what? Its not like Getz has a ton of talent to trade. I say pick the one target you want and go get him. Cease for De Los Santos. Cease for Marte. 5-6 years of an offensive SS for 2 years of whatever Cease provides sounds like a good deal.
King Floch
ChiSox fans should probably start mentally preparing themselves for the possibility of some kind of German Marquez type outcome with Cease.
Getz is going to dig his heels in, get no bites, start 2024 with him, and then watch some combination of injury, poor performance, and plain old bad luck decimate his trade value down to pennies on the dollar.
Joel P
I don’t think you should ever assume someone gets hurt. That’s silly.
The Orioles need an ace
King Floch
It’s the game of Russian Roulette that Getz seems willing to play by refusing to accept reality, and not only is it risky, but it’s also pretty unlikely to result in a significantly better return than he could get for Cease now, before he could get hurt or regress even further.
And I agree that an ace would be nice for the O’s, but I’m not sure what that has to do with Dylan Cease, who is not an ace or likely to be an Oriole in 2024.
Joel P
Are you the guy that was acting like Ceaae isn’t any good the other day? Yeah that was you….
King Floch
I never said that Cease “isn’t any good.”
I’m simply unwilling to trade any of our top shelf prospects (Holliday, Mayo, Basallo, Kjerstad, or Cowser) for a guy that needs some fixing to be worth such a pricetag..
If you want to feel insulted about that, that is your business.
ACC
Actually the O’s already have two aces, Kyle Brandish and GRod. 101 win teams don’t have many holes and they are also getting John Means back for a full season. Looking at Cease’s stats last year, he would’ve been the Orioles #4 or 5 starter at best, not what I would trade 3 top 50 prospects in return.
Joel P
What stats are you looking at? FIP is better than ERA. Write that down.
Braddish, Rodriguez and Means are all unproven.
I don’t think anyone suggested trading 3 top 50 prospects. Price is probably more like 2 top 100 prospects.
King Floch
@ ACC
I think either or both could get there, but it’s a bit too early to call either a bonafide ace.
I am quite optimistic though.
ACC
You can make the case that GRod is unproven since he only has half a year under his belt, although some of the best stuff in MLB and results matched in the second half of the season. I don’t think anyone can say Bradish and Means are unproven. Bradish has been awesome the last season and half. Means is a lefty fly ball pitcher who had much success in the old LF dimensions of Camden Yards and facing stacked right handed lineups in an unbalanced schedule in the AL East. I can’t wait to see what he’ll do with the new dimensions. Hopefully pitches another no hitter.
At the moment (depending on which list)all of the O’s top 100 prospects are in top 50, with 4 being in top 27.
As for stats, as long as the sport keeps declaring winners by counting runs, I’ll keep valuing ERA.
Joel P
I am not making a case that Rodriguez is unproven he is unproven. No legit contender would call him their ace.
Means is coming off injury.
Bradish was really good in 2023.
The Orioles have done nothing this offseason except replace their stud injured closer with Kimbrel. Making a big trade last year instead of picking up flaky Flaherty might have made the difference. And now you say you don’t need another pitcher?
ACC
Means is the improvement to the rotation without the need to trade any of their blue chip prospects. The O’s won 101 games largely without him last year. They only had him back in September.
Joel P
Look at Joey Ortiz. If you don’t trade him where on earth is he going to play?
The Orioles have tons of outfield prospects. Again where do all these guys play?
King Floch
I’d certainly like to add a starter to slot in at or near the top of the rotation, but it’s not nearly as dire as a lot of people outside of Baltimore seem to think it is. Bradish, GrayRod, Means, and Kremer is a pretty solid front 4, Wells and Irvin are perfectly acceptable candidates for the final spot and next man up gig, and there are a few near ready arms in AA and AAA that should be able to help out at some point in 2024- McDermott, Povich, Johnson, etc.
Joel P
I think it’s obvious to people outside of Baltimore that they could use rotation help but also that the Orioles have PLENTY of prospects. At least on the position player side they have more prospects than they have room for them to play.
Again where is Ortiz playing in 2024 if he’s not playing for another team?
King Floch
Urias or Mateo could easily be moved to give him a roster spot. In fact, I am in favor of that (if he isn’t traded prior to OD).
Joel P
Is that what contending teams do they trade proven players so unproven guys can play?
It’s not. Maybe you forgot or maybe you never knew this but it’s not.
King Floch
Yeah, 2024 really hinges on whether Ramon Urias or Joey Ortiz is the UIF. Those ~300 ABs off the bench will decide whether it’s October baseball or the draft lottery for the Orioles next year.
Stop being silly.
Joel P
If Ortiz can be a big piece that lands you Cease the 2024 season definitely could hinge on that. Heck he probably wouldn’t be on the bench if he was with the White Sox. He’s worth more to them than he is to Baltimore this is why trades happen man.
King Floch
I have said all along in the Cease saga that he is a guy I would be willing to include in a trade package. I think Ortiz should be starting somewhere on OD 2024 and the ChiSox would be a good fit on that front. I bet their pitchers would like to have him backing them up instead of Tim Anderson too.
We don’t HAVE TO move him though.
Joel P
You don’t have to do anything. But the Orioles could use a top of the rotation starter. They don’t want to spend money in free agency and they have loads of prospects who won’t all get a chance to play. This is why trades happen.
King Floch
If Chris Getz brings his ask down to a more reasonable level, a deal may very well happen.
If not, there are other fish in the sea.
Yankee Clipper
I think one of the only (or few) moves holding back the O’s is a frontline SP. That said, I don’t see them parting with this much prospect capital to acquire Cease for two reasons:
1) The O’s have been notably reluctant to part with their good prospects; and
2) I don’t believe they (or any other competing team) see Cease as a clear frontline rotation SP. He’s obviously capable of being one, but not a clearcut TOR arm at this time.
The O’s spent nearly a decade losing to build up their team through top prospect acquisitions, so they’re not going to part with it lightly, and understandably so.
Just my two cents…. Which are worth about a penny.
King Floch
That is pretty accurate, Clip, although as I said earlier in this string of comments, the rotation situation in Baltimore isn’t quite as grim as it might look to an outsider looking in. It isn’t all that sexy after Bradish and GrayRod, but it does have a high floor with Means, Kremer, Wells, and Irvin on hand for the last 3 spots and 2024 ETA’s for both Povich and McDermott.
Of course, an addition would be nice too.
stymeedone
See Tampa Bay.
stymeedone
Baltimore matches up well with FLA for a starter. I bet they would rather have Luzardo.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, King Floch, I agree with you and it’s a good point. Didn’t mean to imply they were hurting for pitching as their pitching is still good. Those guys you mentioned are good rotation pieces, without a doubt.
slider32
As great as the O’s looked last year, they will have a hard time repeating in the East. There is just too much talent in that league.
MacGromit
Cease is not guaranteed ace. Burnes has a better track record but the one less ur of control and likely unwillingness to extend him from Angelos does give Cease more value for the Birds but let’s not announce “ace” on him yet. Last yr wasn’t ace work.
He’d likely slot into a 2-3 depending on if GRod is 1st half or 2md half GRod. Cease can be good but he’s not going to change the world either.
Joel P
Who knows if Burnes is actually available. If he is he certainly makes sense for the Orioles.
DroppedThirdStrike
Burnes makes sense for everyone.
NoNeckWilliams
Whatever, Nostradamus.
Gmen777
Might be smarter to wait for the deadline anyways. Teams get more desperate then
30 Parks
Getz was a bad hire.
User 4223176798
Cease to the Giants for Wisenhunt or Black plus Meckler and Winn. Enough?
Cohn Joppolella
I’d give 7 PTBNL for him.
stymeedone
Deferred! One a year for seven years, starting in 2030.
1984wasntamanual
WS may be good by 2030
uvmfiji
Lol. Look at Cease’s playoff numbers. Then look at what kind of resources teams are investing in Verlander, Scherzer or even Morton and sale
martras
What playoff numbers? He’s pitched a grand total of 2.2 innings in the playoffs.
Whyme
Getz can ask for the moon doesn’t mean he’ll get it. So far AA and the Reds looked elsewhere we will see what other teams do like Baltimore.
cwsOverhaul
Basic business Getz: Get about 85% of a great/outsized price you put out there or you will get 100% of nothing.
The return should be very good, but teams like Balt/Cincy are ready to make best offer since it is highly doubtful they are getting involved in the Boras slow play for Snell/Montgomery big $$.
If they try getting a top target for not much-by all means let them come up empty if trying same with Marlins/Cle starters.
bronyaur
I suspect that the market has to progress a bit before Cease and a suitor can agree, but that he’ll move by July.
nickl14
Sox want top prospects that’s not happening with the Reds
Big whiffa
I don’t think reds are interested anymore but reds offered way more than I thought he was worth and ws said no. Again.
cwsOverhaul
What specific package of players did Reds offer?
Big whiffa
I think it was lowder collier india and petty. 4 first round draft picks.
cwsOverhaul
Seems awfully close with Lowder and Petty to have negotiated over just the position player aspect. India is useless to add to their bad team being arb eligible/below avg defender/okay bat. Arroyo to give them a good defensive SS in lieu of he/Collier should have sealed it. I can’t see a deal that would need to be more than those 3 targets.
Fisherman 4:19
Cease in talks with every MLB team, along with reported links to being Justin Field’s replacement and my son’s little league coach.
TomToms
Getz does not have to hurry. 2 years left on Cease. He can ask whatever he wants. Besides… J.R. is an absolute joke, so Getz will have to get as much as possible for Cease, due to the fact ownership is so dang stingy. Getz was a bad hire, but Riensdorf is the clown.
Aiden Awe
I agree on the last sentence, we as fans don’t know truly what happens in the front office. All we do is criticize them. They aren’t urgent to trade Cease whatsoever. So far I don’t think Getz has been that terrible. Time will tell if he’s a good gm or not.
jumps
Getz is in a tough spot. He needs a major haul for Cease to help expedite the rebuild. I totally get him asking for a lot.
But I think almost any team that would meet that price would be foolish to do so. Unless it’s a team that’s loaded at that ML level (Dodgers) or a team that has insane depth to trade from (Orioles).
I have a major feeling that last year was the start of the decline for Cease. His fastball has strong velo but not the movement it had before. Getz likely doesn’t get what he wants now. Snell, Montgomery, & Bieber all are better pitchers for what they’ll cost compared to Cease. He’ll probably need to roll the dice and hope Cease’s production keeps up this spring and he can flip him at the deadline.
Aiden Awe
True, but he said no rebuild. This tells me the Sox are planning to compete in 2025/2026 once Colson, Edgar, Bryan are called up. No guarantees but I won’t argue with anyone. They could be a decent team by 2025 or 2026.
Sox67
Just more crickets for the Red Sox fans
IronBallsMcGinty
It seems to me that Getz has the leverage as the Sox aren’t projected to contend. Many here on these boards don’t like the White Sox so they say “no, none of our good prospects but here’s a handful of decent guys”. Cease is a good pitcher and there’s no reason why he wouldn’t bounce back and there’s also no reason for Getz to not aim high. However, if the Sox are trying to contend by 25 or 26 then they should go for players who are close to MLB ready.
As Rosenthal said, it’s a matter of supply and demand.
Aiden Awe
Agree. He ruled LRJ trade, if he was traded that would contradict Getz defense needs. Getz could gamble a Cease bounce back with improved defense.
stymeedone
Yes, it is a matter of supply and demand. What’s harder to come by? An affordable 2-3 starting pitcher on a 2 year contract, or a promising SS with 6 years of control?
1984wasntamanual
And the demand for Cease, at that price, is 0.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
Wow. A big, big ask for a guy with only ONE good season.
Ridiculous.
Aiden Awe
He wasn’t bad in 2021 or 2022. He’s been average throughout his career. He could bounce back in 2024.
fba0017
So bounce back from being average? Is that a thing?
Aiden Awe
Yeah.
Bobby Mongan
The White Sox management value Cease higher than other team managements do.
They expecting to get 2-3 MLB ready prospects for a pitcher who has trended down. Just because there will be 2 years worth of control doesn’t justify such a return. Come down from the expectations and maybe you can move him.
Aiden Awe
Agree, white Sox aren’t doing the 2016 situation. Retool is like a soft rebuild. Re-x y z. Maybe he gets a rf in return mlb or milb.
DroppedThirdStrike
None of us know what kind of mandate he’s under from ownership. He might have his hands tied. Or maybe he’s incompetent. Or maybe he’s a genius and ownership is incompetent.
He might get overpaid for cease, sometimes the market dictates that kind of thing. But if he’s on the roster on opening day his value drops. If he’s only regular to open the season his value drops a lot more. If he gets hurt his value is nada.
sfu13
A lot of bitter grumpy people in here pissed off the White Sox won’t just give them Dylan cease for their crap. As a White Sox fan I’m perfectly content them just keeping him so I can watch one of the best pitchers in baseball for the next two years and Hope they either extend him or get an extra comp pick for the qo. Since he came into the league Dylan Cease is 8th in all of baseball in fWAR, which is Ace level. Now I don’t think they’ll get a Jackson holliday of course but I don’t see why they don’t ask the Orioles for Cowser to headline, one of Westburg or Ortiz, Cade Povich, and then two young pitchers outside Baltimore’s top 30. The Marlins aren’t trading Jesus luzardo, why would they? They made the playoffs last year and he has three controllable years left. And I wouldn’t want Kjierstad, he’s an overrated bust waiting to happen so Baltimore can keep him.
Bobby Mongan
That’s too much for Cease. A package of Cowser and Ortiz alone would be plenty.
sfu13
I could actually live with Cowser, Ortiz, DL Hall, and the two young pitchers outside Baltimore’s top 30. Not sure about Baltimore’s bullpen but I’d entertain including Gregory Santos in the deal if Baltimore is willing to include Cade Povich that I mentioned above.
JR. White Rat
That’s it I’m stepping up for the Cardinals here.
We’ll trade SP Mikolas, Matt’s, Libby and DH-RF-1B Alec B. for Cease and cash.
That’s it,
I know it’s a over pay for a number 3.5 pitcher with a 4.60 era but it’s the Cardinals WAY.
gorav114
I want the Os to make a big move to bring in a top of rotation starter but I don’t want them to do anything dumb. Giving up multiple top 100 guys plus for Cease is dumb and ruins the work they’ve done to build the last couple of seasons. That kina package can get better. The White Sox are going to regret the asking price as teams pivot elsewhere
MacGromit
@GoRav114
Agreed. that Reds ask is insane. Getz is pinning the start of his role on this deal. hope the Reds don’t give in, that’s a lot of talent for a good but not ace pitcher who has had a few declining yrs since his good one.
fba0017
Lol geez overvalued much? He isn’t Cy Young people.
JD73
If the ace on your staff is giving up 4.58 runs per game, you are never getting to a world series…
BaseballGuy1
Value for Cease is the highest it will ever be right now. As Opening Day comes closer, it deceases. By Trading Deadline in 2024, much lower. Just wait out Getz and you get Cease for a much more reasonable price.
JD73
A guy with a 4.58 ERA last year in the worst division in the MLB is being touted as a top of the rotation starter? Only a moron like Cashman would bite on that one… when he could just pay Blake Snell and actually get an effective pitcher in the AL East…
norcalblue
Getz should tear it down and package Cease with Robert. The Giants, Cubs, Angels, Cardinals will send their top prospects and a young regular to WS if both are included.
YanksPhan42
I think Getz is on crack after his pitcher posted a mid 4’s era season. Does Cease have value? Of course…..but multiple top prospects? F off.
If I’m going to give up a package like that, I’ll offer it for Burnes who is far superior. I’d even offer more for Luzardo than Cease.
norcalblue
I’m agreeing with you YP42. My point is that Robert is the player that has high value. Neither the Brewers or Marlins have a player to include at the level of Robert. The Giants, Cubs, Cards and Angels all have a need for Robert AND a pitcher like Cease.
1984wasntamanual
GMs rarely package their two most valuable trade chips.
The cubs best prospect is a CFer that’s pretty close to MLB ready. Obviously Robert is better than PCA, but if they’re going to blow their load it makes more sense to go after a posistion their system is weak at.
Nosferatu Zodd
I as an Orioles fan don’t mind trading a few prospects to get a mid+ rotation guy( I’ll trust our catchers with him more than with that the White Soxes.) I can see see Cowser, Norby, and a vet like Urias as doable.
Bobby Mongan
I would agree with that trade for the O’s. If not Urias then maybe Mateo.
Nosferatu Zodd
I rather keep Matos. That speed as a pinch runner is killer. I’ve seen him win multiple games as the only guy on the roster who would have scored. Plus he can play CF. Urias defense is top notch and would look quite enticing to Chicago. That is three guys they can plug into lineup opening day. Outside Roberts the line up is trash.
Seaver rules
The Mets are in good position to land Cease. They have stacked prospects. Prospects are prospects and many don’t amount to much. Many don’t make the show. Follow the Dodgers, Braves, Astros lead and get good MLB talent for prospects. Cease should be in Orange and Blue.
1984wasntamanual
Huh? The Dodgers, Braves and Astros have all had homegrown players play a big part in their success.
Seaver rules
Yes they have many home grown players but the Braves have traded for pitching this winter, Astros this past summer and the Dodgers often trade prospects like the Yankees. The Mets have a dozen Shortstops blocked by Lindor and Catchers blocked by Alvarez. Trade a SS, C and pitching prospect for Cease or Burnes. Can see Stearns doing the latter.
Trollfree
Most prospects are pretenders who got over-rated by prospect rating services who get heavily influenced by their relationships with GMs. Friedman bumped Jeter Downs from nearly #200 to #44 just in time to dupe his protege Bloom who later DFA’d him.
Dombrowski gets blamed for stripping the farm systems but what he really does is prune the pretenders for things he needs on the MLB level. That’s brilliant and it’s not impacting the farm system because those players won’t end up providing significant value to the MLB team.
So back up the truck and unload it to get a TRUE quality player. Just don’t do it for a PRETENDER like Cease who might not be better than some of your home grown talent.
Go for the Burnes type SPs, or the Soto type players. That’s when dumping pretenders in the farm system makes the most sense.
1984wasntamanual
Why? The Mets are going to be bad in 2024. If you’re going to trade for someone, go after someone with more than a year or 2 of control.
ClevelandSteelEngines
If Getz could build a competitive market for Cease, then by all means ignore market values. But this ain’t an auction or retail shop, you’ve only walked into Pawn Starz and are taking to Chumlee.
Stan Not the Man
2 top prospects for Cease? He ain’t Luis Castillo meats.
Old York
He’s a decent 3rd or 4th rotation guy but not worth taking top prospects for.
FRA:
2019: 4.19
2020: 5.39
2021: 3.94
2022: 3.57
2023: 4.13
ERA
2019: 5.79
2020: 4.01
20:21: 3.91
2022: 2.2
2023: 4.58
In 2019,he had an ERA-FRA difference of +1.60, which pointed to the fact that he was actually much better than his ERA and should see some positive regression, as we did.in 2020. However, he did pitch beyond what was expected in 2020 through 2022. For a pitcher, given the decent sample size of data, he’s probably a pitcher that will pitch to a 4+ ERA with slight fluctuation up or down.
Trollfree
When it comes to predicting a future value you must remember that NOBODY knows the future so whether you go to a well liked inaccurate place like Fangraphs or Statcast or simply trend his success they are all estimates.
Will Cease be good going forward? So many things to consider.
1 – Ball Park
2 – Pitching Coaches
3 – Quality of the Analytics team
4 – Manager
5 – Future health (both normal injuries and freak injuries)
If he went to Texas vs going to Boston he would do much, much better because the environment for pitchers is so so much better.
Think about the team you want him to go to and that should dictate the price you want to pay for him. In Boston, I wouldn’t pay him Gioltio’s salary but then again I wouldn’t pay Giolito the salary he got.
1 – Bad Manager
2 – Bad Ball Park
3 = Bad analytics group
4 – New Pitching coaches could be a positive
5 – Future Health? Cora’s record with good pitchers health is horrendous
Old York
@Trollfree
What I’m using is essentially more predictive of ERA and stickier than SIERA, xFIP, FIP, xERA, or DRA. So, regardless of ballpark, we’re getting the core of his ability. If you want to view him as a top pitcher, by all means, but when you take out all the external factors and look under the hood, he’s essentially a 4+ ERA. Can it go down? Sure, but the margin of error is much less than with the other predictors. If he goes to Texas, based on 2023 data, his ERA would actually look better because Texas’ defense actually saved runs for their pitchers based on RA9def data. If he was on Boston, he’d have a worse ERA than he currently does. However, being on Texas, it would only show you that his performance was overperforming to the point that we’d see a much steeper drop the next year.
Again, I’m not suggesting he’s a terrible pitcher but not someone that I’d sell the top two prospects for. At best, he’s a #3 starter.
Trollfree
Old York – Loved what you wrote. I agree completely.
For me, he’s better than E-Rod but just as inconsistent and unpredictable start to start. Personally, I’d stay away from him compared to other available alternatives.
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – Superb post!!
So here is what I’d like to know. The Sox just paid a lot for O’Neill with the contract they agreed upon. He’s a GG outfielder, but he’s played very little in CF or RF. With that salary I’m assuming he will play every day. So where does he play? Sounds like it will be mostly LF, which means Yoshida will be the primary DH.
How do you feel about that? Corner OF’ers are usually very good hitters, O’Neill has been awful offensively the past two years. If they were gonna trade for a JBJ-type OF’er, shouldn’t it have been one that can play CF or RF well?
Trollfree
Fever – Here is my break down on O’Neill.
1 – Should never have won a Gold Glove!!!
Why? In 2020 (COVID) he made 0 errors in 89 chances. FLUKE due to small sample size.
2021 wins gold glove with 9 errors and a .962 Fielding Percentage on 237 total chances which is again a small sample considering it was a 162 game season. Also, if he’s so great defensively why did he only start 129 of the 162 games?
After six seasons of play his errors total 17 in 698 total chances for a fielding percentage of .976 while league average is .987 which is 11 points higher so he’s a below league average defender with 2 gold gloves. Any wonder why I criticize the awarding of GGs?
For comparison purposes –
Duran = 2023 1 error in 171 chances, 2022 1 error in 133 chances and 2021 0 errors in 47 chances for a career fielding percentage of .994 in 352 chances
Seems to me he deserves the gold gloves not O’Neill
So with suspect defense yet two GGs how is his offense?
112 OPS+ for his career is slightly above league average like Benny but when you did deeper his OPS+ by year is::
2018 – 115
2019 – 90
2020 – COVID – 70
2021 – 148
2022 – 99
2023 – 94
Throw out the COVID year and the anamoly year in 2021 and you see a very, very average hitter who gets hurt a lot but has a ceiling as high Devers (2022 his best year was 141 and he can’t field too!!! $30MM vs $5.85 and the second guy has had the higher peak year!! Guess it pays to be the DR academy poster boy!!)
If i set the outfield in 2024 it would be:
LF – Abreu
CF – Duran
RF – Rafaela
The front office and media people for Boston don’t like Rafaela for some reason so expect the starting line-up to be:
LF – O’Neill
CF – Duran
RF – Abreu (despite having lower numbers for his career than the two year younger Rafaela)
Cora makes mistakes daily with the line-up but he’s a suck up so figure O’Neill to bat in a better spot than he deserves.
Cora is dumb enough to set this line-up:
Duran CF
Devers 3B
O’Neill LF
Casas 1B
Story SS
Yoshida DH
Abreu RF
Wong C
Grissom 2B
If I set the line-up it would be:
Duran CF
Rafaela RF
Yoshida DH
Devers 3B
Story SS
Casas 1B
Abreu/O’Neil LF
Wong C
Grissom 2B
But remember I would also trade Yoshida and get a real 3B with power so my line-up would really be
Duran CF
Rafaela RF
Devers DH
New 3B
Casas 1B
Grissom 2B
Story SS
Wong C
Abreu LF (Until Anthony arrives)
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – Outstanding analysis, thank you!
I knew something was weird about paying O’Neill all that money despite him not being a good hitter and never having played much CF/RF.
Melchez17
Scott Harris was in a similar situation last year with Eduardo Rodriguez. First year in charge of a team and having to deal a decent starter. Hope it plays out better.
Is Dylan Cease really a top starter though? He had a great year in 2022… except for all the walks. Every other year he’s been pretty decent… nothing great.
32 starts… 170 innings… 4.00 era… 1/333 WHIp. Huge K rate… huge walk rate.
JoeBrady
There is no way I’d pay an ace price for Cease. Just too much uncertainty. He could be really good, but if I was giving up a top-30 prospect, I’d want something closer to a 100% guarantee.
Luzardo looks like a much better target.
cwsOverhaul
Price for 3yrs Luzardo would be so high with Marlins wanting to keep being a WC contender…probably why no news there.
Ditto w/Burnes since they’d have to be blown away for his 1yr since they very much intend to keep making the playoffs in ’24.
Slim pickings
TellItGoodbye
Just another over-hyped player that some desperate team will overpay.
BeeVeeTee
It seems like the American League Central Division is up for grabs this upcoming season. The White Sox can easily compete for the American League Central Division if everything stays intact with everyday players like Moncada, Jimenez, Vaughn and Robert stay healthy to the starting pitching holds up. The White Sox can wait until the trade deadline if things don’t hold up with trading Cease or maybe they make a trade to improve their team to compete to win the American League Central Division. This White Sox fan is glad Anderson is no longer on the team.
1984wasntamanual
The AL Central sucks, but the WS are probably the worst team in that division. They lost 101 games last year and probably haven’t improved as much as the Royals have. Not only do you need all of their injury prone players to stay healthy all year, you also need all of their inconsistent players to have career years. Is there a chance that they can compete? Sure. Is it even remotely likely? Not at all.
Aiden Awe
Very accurate and honest opinion.
Motor City Beach Bum
With the Twins and Cleveland doing nothing to patch holes it is the Tigers division to lose as of today.
Instead of shopping for Cease everyone should be offering the farm for Skubal. More control, more consistent stuff and from what I’ve read so far most outlets are mentioning him as a potential Cy Young candidate this year. Injuries are the only red flag but when he came back from his injury the last 3 months of the season he was the best pitcher in MLB. The stats tell the tale.
Prospects are just “maybes” and capital to obtain established players. You trade 4 for one and are pretty much guaranteed that only one or two might become regulars. I hope the Tigers keep Skubal but for the right price I could see them flipping him, same as the White Sox are doing with Cease. Some offers would just be too good to pass up and teams like the Reds, Orioles, Mets, Dbacks, SD have pieces at SS, C, 3B, SP that would be enticing for the Tigers who have holes to fill long term. I don’t blame anyone for aiming high in this pitching market, but I also think many teams are shying away from trades vs free agent siginings because they overvalue thier prospects.
RedFraggle
“Lofty Standards”
mustang66
If not signed by Spring see how interested the Cubs really are.
rhsp aa Horton, #3 of aa Owen Caissie, #10 lhsp Jordon Wicks and #13 1b aaa Matt Mervis is what it should take.
8 years at $28m is the right # imo. That’s $244 and more than any of the top tackles 1b especially Freeman.
This one belongs to the Reds
I think the White Sox GM over played his hand and is trying to recover some dignity by saying they don’t necessarily have to deal him.
Duran Daddy
Rafaela + york + somebody else for luzardo or another young controllable starter. trading all the depth for only 2 years is not worth it.
teddyballgame
Rafaela is starting in center I’m guessing. That would be a big hole to fill.
Yorke is definitely expendable but who are they going to add to that package? I’m not trading Mayer, Teel or Anthony. Bleis maybe?
Duran Daddy
teddy –
maybe bleis as well as a pitching prospect? (along with york)
Occams_hairbrush
So here is a recap of the off season progress in the AL East:
C –
BAL – Rutschman – The BEST
TOR – Jansen/Kirk – Second BEST
NYY – Wells = WEAK
TB – Pinto/Brantly – WEAK
BOS – Wong/McGuire/Perez – WEAK
1B –
BAL – Mountcastle – Good
TOR – Guerrero – The BEST
NYY – RIzzo – Good
TB – Y Diaz – Second BEST
BOS – Casas – Good
2B – (very weak position)
BAL – Westburg – Average
TOR – Schneider/Biggio = Average
NYY – Torres – Good
TB – B. Lowe – Good
BOS – Grissom – Average
SS –
BAL – Mateo / Holliday – Potentially 2nd Best thanks to Holliday
TOR – Bichette – The Best
NYY – Volpe – Average
TB – Caminero – Average
BOS – Story – Average
3B –
BAL – Henderson – Best all around but 2nd best hitter
TOR – Espinal – average
NYY – LeMahieu – average
TB – Paredes – 3rd best overall if you don’t count defense
BOS – Devers? – Best hitter and by far and away the worst fielder
LF – (Very weak position)
BAL – Hays – average
TOR – Varsho – average
NYY – Verdugo – below average
TB – Arozarena – The Best
BOS – Yoshida/O’Neill – Average
CF
BAL – Mullins – Distant 2nd best
TOR – Kiermeyer – Above average
NYY – Judge – The Best
TB – Siri – Average
BOS – Duran – above average
RF –
BAL – Santander – above average
TOR – Springer – Close 2nd Best
NYY – Soto – The Best
TB – J. Lowe – above average
BOS – Rafaela – above average
DH- (Weak position unless Devers moves to DH)
BAL – O’Hearn = Abpve average
TOR – Horwitz – Average
NYY – Stanton – Average
TB – H Ramirez The Best
BOS – O’Neill/Abreu/Yoshida = Above average
You can see Boston is still 5th in hitting talent along with defense.
SPs and Closer
BAL – Brandish, Rodriguez, Means, Kremer Wells, Kimbrell CL
TOR – Gausman, Bassitt, Berrios, Kikuchi, Manoah, Parsons Romano CL
NYY – Cole, Rodon, Stroman, Cortez, Schmidt, possibly Snell Holmes CL
TB – Eflin, Civale, Pepiot, Littell, Bradley Baz Fairbanks CL
BOS – Giolito, Bello, Houck, Crawford, Pivetta, Walter? Jansen CL
The pitching match-up is far worse than the hitting because Breslow has made no progress so far with pitching. It will take at least a SP1 and SP2 to start making BOS comparable to others in the AL East.
This team right now looks like a below to well below .500 team. The lack of moving Devers is a huge mistake. The lack of trading Yoshi and Jansen to get a true #1 is a mistake. The Grissom add compared to the Soto and Stroman adds in NY moves the Yankess well ahead of the Red Sox. TB and the trading of Glasnow and the loss of Franco brings them back towards Boston but not that close for it to be competitive. Toronto Baltimore and New York should distance themselves from the rest of the division.
Somebody wake up Breslow!!! Others are finding things they need. Why can’t we?
Trollfree
Trying to figure out why ICON is copying my posts and posts from other people.
baseballguru
I just came on to say to Boston Ownership that today’s tickets on sale announment…that I am the front runner to buy some…it’s full throttle at the box office in 24! Lol
baseballguru
Getz thinks he’s getting a premium max package for a 4.58era? GTFOOH
Occams_hairbrush
Just please, please, please don’t go to the Red Sox!
Speaking of, Red Sox ownership just announced for the very first time, there will be no Town Hall.
This ownership keeps looking worse and worse every year.
baseballguru
No winter town hall…shocker lmao weak constitution and don’t expect any ticket sales with today’s opening volley from Redsox Nation…this crap has us near a NewEngland Wide Boycott bruh
Occams_hairbrush
When it comes to predicting a future value you must remember that NOBODY knows the future so whether you go to a well liked inaccurate place like Fangraphs or Statcast or simply trend his success they are all estimates.
Will Cease be good going forward? So many things to consider.
1 – Ball Park
2 – Pitching Coaches
3 – Quality of the Analytics team
4 – Manager
5 – Future health (both normal injuries and freak injuries)
If he went to Texas vs going to Boston he would do much, much better because the environment for pitchers is so so much better.
Think about the team you want him to go to and that should dictate the price you want to pay for him. In Boston, I wouldn’t pay him Gioltio’s salary but then again I wouldn’t pay Giolito the salary he got.
1 – Bad Manager
2 – Bad Ball Park
3 = Bad analytics group
4 – New Pitching coaches could be a positive
5 – Future Health? Cora’s record with good pitchers health is horrendous
JoseFernandez’sBoatingLicense
This guy is not worth multiple high-end prospects theyd be silly to dump the great farm that bloom built up in his absence
Trollfree
So here is a recap of the off season progress in the AL East:
C –
BAL – Rutschman – The BEST
TOR – Jansen/Kirk – Second BEST
NYY – Wells = WEAK
TB – Pinto/Brantly – WEAK
BOS – Wong/McGuire/Perez – WEAK
1B –
BAL – Mountcastle – Good
TOR – Guerrero – The BEST
NYY – RIzzo – Good
TB – Y Diaz – Second BEST
BOS – Casas – Good
2B – (very weak position)
BAL – Westburg – Average
TOR – Schneider/Biggio = Average
NYY – Torres – Good
TB – B. Lowe – Good
BOS – Grissom – Average
SS –
BAL – Mateo / Holliday – Potentially 2nd Best thanks to Holliday
TOR – Bichette – The Best
NYY – Volpe – Average
TB – Caminero – Average
BOS – Story – Average
3B –
BAL – Henderson – Best all around but 2nd best hitter
TOR – Espinal – average
NYY – LeMahieu – average
TB – Paredes – 3rd best overall if you don’t count defense
BOS – Devers? – Best hitter and by far and away the worst fielder
LF – (Very weak position)
BAL – Hays – average
TOR – Varsho – average
NYY – Verdugo – below average
TB – Arozarena – The Best
BOS – Yoshida/O’Neill – Average
CF
BAL – Mullins – Distant 2nd best
TOR – Kiermeyer – Above average
NYY – Judge – The Best
TB – Siri – Average
BOS – Duran – above average
RF –
BAL – Santander – above average
TOR – Springer – Close 2nd Best
NYY – Soto – The Best
TB – J. Lowe – above average
BOS – Rafaela – above average
DH- (Weak position unless Devers moves to DH)
BAL – O’Hearn = Abpve average
TOR – Horwitz – Average
NYY – Stanton – Average
TB – H Ramirez The Best
BOS – O’Neill/Abreu/Yoshida = Above average
You can see Boston is still 5th in hitting talent along with defense.
SPs and Closer
BAL – Brandish, Rodriguez, Means, Kremer Wells, Kimbrell CL
TOR – Gausman, Bassitt, Berrios, Kikuchi, Manoah, Parsons Romano CL
NYY – Cole, Rodon, Stroman, Cortez, Schmidt, possibly Snell Holmes CL
TB – Eflin, Civale, Pepiot, Littell, Bradley Baz Fairbanks CL
BOS – Giolito, Bello, Houck, Crawford, Pivetta, Walter? Jansen CL
The pitching match-up is far worse than the hitting because Breslow has made no progress so far with pitching. It will take at least a SP1 and SP2 to start making BOS comparable to others in the AL East.
This team right now looks like a below to well below .500 team. The lack of moving Devers is a huge mistake. The lack of trading Yoshi and Jansen to get a true #1 is a mistake. The Grissom add compared to the Soto and Stroman adds in NY moves the Yankess well ahead of the Red Sox. TB and the trading of Glasnow and the loss of Franco brings them back towards Boston but not that close for it to be competitive. Toronto Baltimore and New York should distance themselves from the rest of the division.
Somebody wake up Breslow!!! Others are finding things they need. Why can’t we?
Trollfree
FUN FACTS about PAYROLL
NYY – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $57.64MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $39.16MM
Payroll and Tax bill $333.89MM
LAD – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $54.83MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $36.49MM
Payroll and Tax bill $328.,31MM
NYM – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $60.19MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $41.61MM
Payroll and Tax bill $338.81MM
PHI – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $0.70MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0.35MM
Payroll and Tax bill $238.06MM ($100MM less than the Mets)
ATL – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $31.20MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $10.71MM
Payroll and Tax bill $278.91
HOU – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $11.10MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $235.26
TEX – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $36.13MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $227.86
BOS – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $61.39MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $185.62
The Red Sox are spending nearly $150MM less than NYY, LAD and NYM.
That money is profits going to ownership. In a big market, it sure seems like more effective spending could be done to bring the talent level of the team closer to it’s competitors.
Spend wisely, but you must spend to compete which means the GM must ask for money to spend wisely. Breslow needs to think big at this point and go get some all-star quality players from teams not wanting to get nothing for free agents in the next two years.
I still say go get Jose Ramirez and Bieber and Bo Naylor. Jansen’s saves won’t matter on a 75 win team. Yoshi’s DHing is preventing Devers from DHing so Jansen and Yoshi need to go.
Occams_hairbrush
Why do you present false information as fact? You think we are all too dumb to look up basic stats? You think we all work for the idiotic Red Sox front office?
He gave up 27 homers in each of 2018 and 2021.
But that’s besides the point, he has flat-out SUCKED for the past two seasons.
Breslow and Bailey think they can fix him? If they can, great.
If not? Then the Sox have wasted $38.5M over the next two years on a guy that has had a 4.89 ERA and 1.37 WHIP the past two seasons, nearly all of which was in the weak-ass AL Central.
And BTW, career vs:
Bal – 5.19 ERA and 1.50 WHIP
NYY – 4.85 ERA and 1.50 WHIP
Tor – 5.40 ERA and 1.408 WHIP
This is a helluva stupid gamble the Sox are taking and is not a good reflection on Breslow at all.
Occams_hairbrush
Superb post!!
So here is what I’d like to know. The Sox just paid a lot for O’Neill with the contract they agreed upon. He’s a GG outfielder, but he’s played very little in CF or RF. With that salary I’m assuming he will play every day. So where does he play? Sounds like it will be mostly LF, which means Yoshida will be the primary DH.
How do you feel about that? Corner OF’ers are usually very good hitters, O’Neill has been awful offensively the past two years. If they were gonna trade for a JBJ-type OF’er, shouldn’t it have been one that can play CF or RF well?
MLBTR needs to hire editors
Why would you start a sentence with “Getz, unsurprisingly, kept things close to the vest…” when you could NOT interrupt yourself and say “unsurprisingly, Getz kept things close to the vest …” Adams’ writing continues to suck.
Occams_hairbrush
Most prospects are pretenders who got over-rated by prospect rating services who get heavily influenced by their relationships with GMs. Friedman bumped Jeter Downs from nearly #200 to #44 just in time to dupe his protege Bloom who later DFA’d him.
Dombrowski gets blamed for stripping the farm systems but what he really does is prune the pretenders for things he needs on the MLB level. That’s brilliant and it’s not impacting the farm system because those players won’t end up providing significant value to the MLB team.
So back up the truck and unload it to get a TRUE quality player. Just don’t do it for a PRETENDER like Cease who might not be better than some of your home grown talent.
Go for the Burnes type SPs, or the Soto type players. That’s when dumping pretenders in the farm system makes the most sense.
BaseballGuruSage
GETZ ain’t getting it he’s giving up 2 years every one of a core of about 11 to 13 prospects is a tier 1 teir 2 guys with 6! years of being studs. Ya need bats Chris it’s a fact…our boys have sticks everywhere…you have arms let’s trade and meet in the AL playoffs somewhere using each other’s guys to get there!
Occams_hairbrush
FUN FACTS about PAYROLL
NYY – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $57.64MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $39.16MM
Payroll and Tax bill $333.89MM
LAD – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $54.83MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $36.49MM
Payroll and Tax bill $328.,31MM
NYM – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $60.19MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $41.61MM
Payroll and Tax bill $338.81MM
PHI – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $0.70MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0.35MM
Payroll and Tax bill $238.06MM ($100MM less than the Mets)
ATL – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – negative $31.20MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $10.71MM
Payroll and Tax bill $278.91
HOU – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $11.10MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $235.26
TEX – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $36.13MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $227.86
BOS – Estimated Competitive Balance Space – $61.39MM
Estimated Tax Bill for being over $0
Payroll and Tax bill $185.62
The Red Sox are spending nearly $150MM less than NYY, LAD and NYM.
That money is profits going to ownership. In a big market, it sure seems like more effective spending could be done to bring the talent level of the team closer to it’s competitors.
Spend wisely, but you must spend to compete which means the GM must ask for money to spend wisely. Breslow needs to think big at this point and go get some all-star quality players from teams not wanting to get nothing for free agents in the next two years.
I still say go get Jose Ramirez and Bieber and Bo Naylor. Jansen’s saves won’t matter on a 75 win team. Yoshi’s DHing is preventing Devers from DHing so Jansen and Yoshi need to go.
baseballguru
Nice breakdown…I figured after a Jansen Yoshida trade it would be approx 161 million behind. So regardless of any scenario right now both Yoshida and Jansen do not firm our baseball team and where we are at. Frankly I do not think 2024 is the year to totally unleash the funding…there were not in my opinion any great fits besides a Yamamoto for our growing core…I like the players we traded for so far…we should lock up O’Neill IMO now for at least 2 more years. I like the Soler pursuit and the Monty spend at a 5 max year 120 contract (losing Pivetta in 2025) outside of that a trade using anyone (not a pitcher or Mayer, Anthony, Teel) for young pitchers from SEA or MIA, Cease is not happening because Getz has a 4.5era guy he thinks is an ACE so his ask is too much. Best wait until Fried, Burns and maybe even Cole opt out of nyy to grab some bonifide cash FAs…the Snell, Ohtani, etc all had issues to me. I would take a Paxton back this year for a lefty…but we’re better off having a big push of these prospects up the ladder IMO. They maybe holding back funds for the Febway Park area development project on 2 streets around the ballpark…but I think their FA additions will have to be for either bona-fide Ace’s without much issues and for guys who fit the core’s age for a sustained run where they grow together…see Soto etc…hope some players take steps forward and Bailey’s pitching coaching has a wide impact getting many to their next levels…push some young arms…Song even…
Occams_hairbrush
Just please, please, please don’t go to the Red Sox!
Speaking of, Red Sox ownership just announced for the very first time, there will be no Town Hall.
This ownership keeps looking worse and worse every year.
Claydagoat
guess we shouldn’t be surprised at no Town Hall … not because of last year’s boos, but because ownership (specifically Henry) despises the fans and anything Henry or Werner says could be totally stupid and backfire, like the “full throttle” and the “players are expensive”.
It’s just a continued pattern, remember Henry hasn’t had a traditional end-of-season press conference the past two years. He’s not visible anymore, you almost never see him in the owner’s seats near the Sox dugout, he didn’t even make an onfield appearance for the Remy ceremony.
I’ve said this a million times, he won’t care about winning again unless the profit margin drops significantly. Lucky used to nudge Henry to spend because winning was important to Lucky and the minority owners. But now between Kennedy and Redbird all they care about is the bottom line.
I’m gonna keep my promise and wait another five weeks or so to see what happens, but if they don’t pick up at least a #1 SP and quality LHR there will be repercussions.
And you’re right, Cease is not the answer.