The Red Sox brought in outfield help on Friday night, announcing the acquisition of outfielder Tyler O’Neill from the Cardinals. Right-handers Nick Robertson and Victor Santos are going back to St. Louis.
O’Neill, 29 in June, has had a mercurial career but showed his tremendous ceiling as recently as 2021. He played 138 games that season, hitting 34 home runs. He struck out at a high 31.3% clip but hit .286/.352/.560 overall for a wRC+ of 143. He also received strong grades for his outfield defense and stole 15 bases. That all-around production led to a tally of 5.5 wins above replacement, per FanGraphs, whereas Baseball Reference had him at 6.1 WAR.
But the results since then have been less impressive, with injuries seeming to drag him down. In the past two seasons, O’Neill has hit the injured list due to a right shoulder impingement, a left hamstring strain, a lower back strain and a right foot sprain. He’s been able to get into just 168 games over those two campaigns, hitting 23 home runs and producing a batting line of .229/.310/.397. That amounts to a wRC+ of 98, indicating he’s been just a bit below league average.
It appeared that he had fallen out of favor in St. Louis over that time. In early 2023, he and manager Oli Marmol got in a bit of a spat, where the skipper publicly admonished O’Neill for a perceived lack of hustle. Though the outfielder pushed back on the idea that he wasn’t giving full effort and also seemed displeased with Marmol making the disagreement public.
As the Cardinals fell out of contention during the most recent season, it seemed as though O’Neill could have been traded at the deadline a few months ago, since he’s slated for free agency after 2024. But no deal materialized and he stuck with the club into the current offseason. In recent weeks, trade rumors surfaced and president of baseball operations John Mozeliak did little to quell them. “In the outfield, right now, if we were to play tomorrow it’d likely be [Lars Nootbaar], Tommy Edman and [Jordan Walker],” said Mozeliak during the Winter Meetings earlier this week. “Our fourth outfielder would be Dylan Carlson. … Tyler O’Neill is somebody that we are listening to on trades.”
But for the Red Sox, O’Neill makes plenty of sense. After they traded Alex Verdugo earlier this week, their outfield projects to have lefties Masataka Yoshida, Jarren Duran and Wilyer Abreu. The club also has righties Ceddanne Rafaela and Rob Refsnyder, but the former has just 28 games of experience while the latter is a platoon specialist. Chief baseball officer Craig Breslow recently spoke about how the club would like to add a right-handed hitter capable of playing center field, but that it wouldn’t be a need.
O’Neill does indeed hit from the right side and has played some center field, having logged 303 2/3 innings there over 40 games in his career. The defensive reviews are mixed but it’s hard to glean much in such a small sample.
He will likely not be Plan A in center anyhow. Per a report from Jen McCaffrey and Chad Jennings of The Athletic this week, the club considers Rafaela a viable center field option. Even if he were to struggle in his first extended stretch of play in the big leagues, Duran has spent plenty of time up the middle and Abreu has seen action there as well. But all told, he balances the mix and will be a low-cost upside play for the Sox.
As mentioned, O’Neill is slated for free agency after 2024. Per MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz, he’s projected for a salary of just $5.5MM next year before reaching the open market. If he gets back to his 2021 upside, he would be a bargain and could help the club return to contention or perhaps turn into a midseason trade chip if the Sox are out of the race. If he continues to struggle, he can yield playing time to Duran, Rafaela or Abreu, depending on who is performing well.
The Cardinals came into this offseason with a notable position player surplus. Mozeliak outlined the outfield situation, which also includes players like Alec Burleson and Richie Palacios. But they also have Nolan Arenado and Paul Goldschmidt on the infield corners. Up the middle, they have Masyn Winn, Nolan Gorman and Brendan Donovan as potential options.
It was thought that they would use this surplus to add their rotation, where they were looking to add three arms. But they rather quickly signed Sonny Gray, Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson to bolster their starting group. That led to recent speculation that an eventual position player trade would return bullpen help or prospects.
Robertson, 25, was drafted by the Dodgers and added to that club’s 40-man roster earlier this year, but he was flipped to Boston as part of the Enrique Hernández trade from a few months ago. He has 22 1/3 innings of MLB experience between the two clubs with an earned run average of 6.04, though with more encouraging peripherals. He struck out 24.5% of batters faced while walking 8.5% and getting grounders at a 47.1% clip. His .397 batting average on balls in play and 57.5% strand rate were both on the unlucky side of average, leading to a 3.88 FIP and 3.76 SIERA.
He was even better in the minors, having tossed 42 2/3 Triple-A innings between the two clubs with a 3.16 ERA, 33.1% strikeout rate and 7.4% walk rate. He still has a couple of options, so the Cards don’t need to commit an active roster spot to him right away, but he’s already had some MLB experience and could potentially be part of their club in the coming season.
Santos, 23, has mostly been a starter in the minors but hasn’t ever really been a top prospect, though he has received plaudits for his command. He tossed 145 innings in 2022, split between Double-A and Triple-A with a 4.97 ERA. His 20.6% strikeout rate was a bit below average but his 5.6% walk rate was quite strong. He didn’t pitch in 2023 because of injury. He’ll provide the Cards with a bit of non-roster depth for their starting staff.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post first reported O’Neill was being traded to Boston. Sean McAdam of MassLive reported that St. Louis would receive two minor leaguers. Alex Speier of the Boston Globe reported that Robertson and Santos were going to the Cardinals.
Woah
Since O’Neill should only cost $5 – $6M for this season, I think this shows that Boston is ready to commit big money towards their rotation instead. Hopefully that means they are going all out for Yamamoto but if they don’t get him, I’d be okay with adding Montgomery & Imanaga instead. Time for John Henry to pony up some cash and put a competitive roster together.
Go for the generational Yahamoto! how often to you get to sign an elite pitcher, at the age of 25???? Don’t think about it, give him 300K if you have too, and get him on the team. It will also be easier to sign other players, as they will see the sox are trying to win
300k? Might want to add some zeros to that.
$300K? That’s $300,000.. I think it will take a bit more.
sfes – Just roll with it.
He also called him Yahamoto.
And I think he said it wasn’t over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
The Guardians messed this up.
Montgomery and Imanaga? You honestly think there is a GM on the planet that is dumb enough to feature 3 LH starters in a rotation that plays half its games at Fenway Park?
Dombrowski had Sale Price and Erod in the rotation as recently as 2018
How’d they do that season?
They won the WS that year.
Jeeper – Seems like a century ago, doesn’t it?
They were a 108-win World Championship team, then just 2 years later they became a last place team 3 out of 4 years.
Horrible mismanagement, winning was no longer important to John Henry.
That’s why DD got fired.
IRT Henry, I don’t think the desire to win lessened. I think he just didn’t react to the changing market dynamics.
In 2019, the RS were #1 in spending. But from 2019 to 2023, Philly went from $192M to $264. TO from $131 to $258M. The NYY from $235 to $299. SD from $143 to $296. The NYM from $186M to $366M.
He never seemed to catch up to the fact that we had far more competitors than when he first purchased the team. Or maybe he thought that these teams would collapse under their own weight, which might still be correct.
Joe – I’ve thought about the collapsing under their own weight concept as well. But then I realized there’s two flaws with that logic.
One, teams like the Dodgers and Yankees can always afford to make mistakes go away. Let’s say the Yankees sign Yama to a huge $300M contract and he turns out to be a bust. Yankees can simply eat half his contract in a trade, sending other players with him if necessary.
The second flaw, if salaries of elite players come down because the biggest spenders no longer have payroll flexibility, that will allow a whole bunch of mid-tier spenders to bid for the elite players services.
Regardless, I can never see a scenario where teams like the Yankees and Dodgers won’t pursue an elite player because of payroll flexibility.
The well awaited response to Yankees acquiring Soto!
Or just replacing Verdugo
“”Or just replacing Verdugo””
Exactly. Trade a guy who doesn’t strike out much and doesn’t get injured with a guy who strikes out alot and can’t stay on the field. It’s mid December and Breslow still hasn’t improved the club.
I know this might be confusing to you, but they had too many left handed hitters in the OF. This helps with that problem.
Staying healthy is a big if but let’s look at the boxes: Player A is better in the OF as good a year in right that player B has. Check. Player A hits for double the power. Check. Player A will cost 35% less so that money can be used towards someone else. Check. And finally, the players you received for player B seem to have more upside than what you gave up to get player A. Checkmate.
Perfect take.
So does Lourdes Gurriel. or Michael Taylor, or Adam Duvall, Oneil had 1 good year and can’t stay healthy, there were much better options available. The ONLY way this trade looks better is if they get Yamamoto and Montgomery, but they will end up with Imanaga and Lugo because John Henry is not willing to spend any longer.
Since giving devers 300 mil or?
The overpay for Devers was fan driven. How this off season unfolds will determine if management is willing to spend what it takes to compete. The game changed once SD and the Mets starting spending. I thought it was going to stop but more and more teams have increased spending and Sox ownership has to do so as well.
Henry had ABSOLUETLY NO CHOICE but to extend Devers after cheeping out on Mookie and Xander. RSN would have revolted if Devers was not resigned and that was THE ONLY REASON Henry approved the extension.
He paid Devers as a last resort because the fans LITERALLY booed him off the stage at the winter event they had and a Bruins game he went to.
Box – Breslow is a rookie who has been on the job only 5 weeks and has nobody thoroughly experienced in the front office to mentor him the way Lucky and others mentored Theo & Ben. I think we need to temper expectations, it’s on the job training for him.
Having Breslow is still a lot better than Bloom or Krapler.
Fever, maybe lucchino will take a low-key advisor position now that he sold the woosox.
That said, I do see a pattern so far, and, it fits with what breslow was known for with CHC.
He’s trimming the fat from the pitching prospects and picking guys he likes.
Verdugo was traded for some arms that could hold value. It also got rig of an expensive LH hitter compared to the guys he was blocking.
Then, he turned around and brought in a RH backup depth OF to replace Verdugo at a cheaper salary, at a cost of pitching prospects that, again, he didn’t believe in. A spare part Kiki brought back and another spare piece.
The next of those moves saved cash, got a rh depth bat with upside, and, swapped for better arms. Seems decent so far for a team with lots of holes and an unbalanced roster
@dewey Exactly right!!
Spot on Dewey. I remember reading several posts saying “The Red Sox will NOT survive if they let Bogaerts and Devers walk”. Which, looking back, they probably shouldve. Mass hysteria was rampant at the time among many Red Sox fans. Which in turn, makes negotiating from a GM standpoint very difficult.
Most free agents haven’t signed yet. Come back off the ledge
LOL! Henry spent $300,000,000 because someone booed him?
“because someone booed him?”
What a bad take. Ticket sales were down. Fans were openly promoting boycotting the team. But sure “booing” is what Dewey was talking about.
The next of those moves saved cash, got a rh depth bat with upside, and, swapped for better arms. Seems decent so far for a team with lots of holes and an unbalanced roster
=========================
100% correct. O’Neill is better, but Verdugo is healthier. I’d call that a wash.
And we are way ahead on every thing else.
IMO, the problem is that some fans really only know the huge names like Yamamoto. I like the guy too, but the best teams add value EVERYWHERE.. They don’t realize that one of the reasons that we won in 2004 was that Theo acquired some very nice pieces, like Bellhorn, Millar, Arroyo, and maybe another 5 solid players for next to nothing. BB does not revolve around one name.
I’ll take O’Neil over verdugo all day and it’s not even close ! O’Neil is still in his prime and was once on the verge of stardom. Verdugo has spent his whole career on the verge of becoming a 4th outfielder
“O’Neil is still in his prime”
Verdugo is a year younger
“Verdugo spent his whole career on the verge of becoming a 4th outfielder”
Verdugo has played in every game 493 out of 606, the past 4 years. He is very much a full time player.
———————
I am fine that the Red Sox moved on from Verdugo, I find him to be a tool. But,there are several areas you are ignoring:
-Verdugo has been healthier
-Verdugo has better numbers in recent years
-Verdugo doesnt have questions surrounding his body type
(I know the 3rd one is similiar to the first, but I have serious concern with that body frame on a 2 year decline, not having flexibility and health issues moving forward)
After rereading:
“Verdugo has played in every game 493 out of 606, the past 4 years. He is very much a full time player.”
Take “every game” out of that sentence. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Red – Verdugo was a LH bat and got shoved out the door by the younger, cheaper players with higher ceilings boston needs to promote.
This isn’t Verdugo for O’Neill. This was Verdugo was out, no matter what.
Then, in a different move, unrelated to Verdugo, a RH bat was needed because the lineup was so lefty heavy. Enter O’Neill who checks the RH bat and is a high ceiling depth OFer.
Had Verdugo not gotten shown the door, you STILL needed to add an O’Neill type. Then the question would’ve remained, what to trade Verdugo for.
GA:
“This isn’t Verdugo for O’Neill”
——————————-
Did I say it was? Bigwhiffa compared the two, and even he didnt say that. He was comparing the two players, and I was amending the comparison and giving my opinion. 4 paragraphs to say ‘these were two separate transactions’, when that wasnt even in dispute, is excessive.
The Devers decision was probably made years ago. It was always going to be Bogaerts or Devers. Henry and the FO picked Devers, likely on age. It had nothing to do with Henry getting booed.
I see someone did say actually say “booed” Lol. I see your point JB now. Thats ridiculous.
GASox – You could be right! It was common knowledge the farm system was devoid of pitching prospects as Bloom pretty much avoided pitchers in his drafts. Fitts was the main guy in the Dugie trade, he’s projected to reach the majors next year. I am not too optimistic about the other pitchers in the trade.
As for Lucky, I do wonder if he and/or Werner would consider going back to SD. They both liked it there a lot. But yeah, Lucky returning to the Sox as an advisor would be a welcome sight.
A long-winded paragraph to add nothing at all on your part would be, if anything is, excessive Red…
If you need me to dumb it down for you, there is no reason to compare Verdugo to o’neill at all given they are meant for different roles on the team.
“If you need me to dumb it down for you, there is no reason to compare Verdugo to o’neill”
Again, what part of I DIDNT MAKE THE COMPARISON, somebody else did, do you not understand? Yet you seem to want to put it all on me.
I only commented because there was glaring mistakes in the comparison. Wow, you either have zero reading skills, or maybe just wants to pick a fight.
GA – Red and you both have good points. For me, Verdugo’s pay got jacked up by Bloom and that made him completely expendable and to me getting a guy who had ONE good year and many injured seasons doesn’t present itself as a sound investment. Can O’Neill return to 2021 form and stay healthy the whole year? I doubt it but if we think of him like Rich Hill he might be able to provide value when he’s healthy. He’s a lot like Sale.
It would be wonderful if Sale got 36 starts in 2024 but most of us think 24 would be great. Same with O’Neill if he can play his best for 100 games which seems to be his threshold that would be great but if he’s not the 2021 O’Neill then I’d rather call up Anthony to play.
Joe – That”s not how things work. Bloom chose to sit on his hands and follow his ideals about building a team and it didn’t work. When he faced being fired or saving ONE 2018 Champ he picked the younger Devers out of necessity. This wasn’t about the owners. I truly believe they would have signed as many of the 2018 guys as Bloom suggested but he chose to stick to his plan and dump them all.
Just remember the process. Transactions are formulated by the GM and presented to the board which includes the owners. The board determines the fate of the proposal. Bloom followed his own plan just like DD and Cherington and others. They presented what they wanted to the board and almost always got it approved. The few exceptions happened when the owners insisted on hometown discounts.
Papi was the man for years and Devers was not the logical choice to be the next man because of his self centered personality. Mookie was supposed to be the man after Papi but he complained about racism and got shipped out of town. Bogey should have been the next nomination for the man but Bloom truly wanted to rid the 2018 team from the roster so any success would be associated with him. He failed miserably because his TB mind couldn’t transition to a big market mind. Devers was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to try and save face and his job. It worked for 1 year and buried the future payrolls much like Crawford, Panda and Hanley did.
You’re stupid
Absolutely love this as a buyloe for your team and park.
Tyler O’Neill and his 45in forearms going to Bahston
Is Fenway’s leftfield even big enough to accommodate O’Neill’s massive glutes? I’m just asking a question.
along with his juice
it would be more like bawstin.
Well said “Bostonsportsforlife”
The other guy “Bahbahston” thinks sheep live in Boston.
I originally had Bawston. I was going with “ah” sound like for Cah or Fenway Pahk. Replacing the r.
Even though there is no r in Bawaton/Bawstin
“Bawstin” is more accurate. Also the on at the end is pronounced “in”.
It’s bah-stin
For a box of donuts and a crate of coffee
Marcelo and Yorke
How bout a case of Fenway Franks?
Not enough unless they throw in a dozen Dunkin’ Donuts.
Powdered, Jelly filled, Glazed, Double Chocolate, Boston Cream or something else?
Butternut. Definitely butternut.
I’d ask for double chocolate, but that could be a deal-killer.
Better not be for any top prospects he’s on the decline.
Actually, TO is a high ceiling player who had 1 season without injuries and he killed it. The problem with him is obviously he can’t stay healthy.
*health and the slider down and away…
I love that excuse, it’s just that he hasn’t been able to stay healthy… because he crushed the ball when he was healthy right? I mean look at the numbers, right…
He’s had one good season, how many players have had one good season in their career? Additionally, that one good season was aided greatly by one monster month where he hit 13 of his 31 home runs.
It also didn’t help that he was in an unfavorable situation with Oli Marmol.
So that month shouldn’t count?
Yeah because that’s what I was implying.
I don’t understand why folks on this board jump to the wildest conclusions. Critical thinking, cognitive reasoning and reading comprehension go right out the window. Not to mention people’s inability to know the difference between re-signing and resigning.
Decline at 28..right
For the infamous cheapskate Pete order of ribs. One single rib.
A box of crell-ahs to go with the ribs lmao
Players have a way of staying healthy and putting up good numbers in their walk year. Cards should have held onto him.
I’m surprised he was tendered a contract but I completely understand why Boston was willing to take a flyer on him.
Cardinals are in an interesting spot, they should have a solid offense but their rotation additions have been questionable at best. Granted, Gray is legit but Lynn and Gibson, for a combined 23 million I believe, doesn’t make sense. One of those guys sure, or sign a 25 million dollar pitcher and cycle through that last rotation spot.
It will be interesting to see, right now I have the Reds as the top team in the division with a lot of off season left. Cardinals would probably be my second pick followed by the Cubs because the Cubs have no middle of the order threat.
Great get for BOS
Is it?
Slow down
Disagree he is below average
You disagree that he is below average or disagree, he is below average?
O’Neil is a fine addition for the Red Sox. I’m not an ONeil fan but if my team was rebuilding and needed an outfielder I’d be happy with risk/reward.
That would be disagree, he is below average.
drascoo36 – A couple of key points you overlooked. He’s older than all the young future stars waiting for their chance to become regular starters. He’s an injury waiting to happen so he’s a big gamble but at a reasonably low cost.
To do a risk/reward equation on O’Neill you can’t use his 2021 numbers because that’s his ceiling not his average. He’s a below league average hitter on average so is the money more than one should pay for a below league average player? It’s not a lot of money but you could find a comparable player with a similar average but less upside for less money. So Boston paid a premium betting on him returning to something close to his 2021 numbers. If he’s a bust he is a DFA during the season.
Good deal for Boston? Not really. Good deal for STL? Not likely but a nice salary dump for STL.
I didn’t make any “key points” so I didn’t over look them. O’Neil is a fine addition for a non-competitive team.
Or is the “key point” I missed the fact I said I didn’t like ONeil?
Only one season with 500 at bats.
Mariners and Royals show interest in O’Neil.
Refresh: Red Sox acquire.
Shows exactly what all the up to the minute rumor mill gets you. Nada. Lol
Or, it was a clever ploy of the Cardinals to let people know Mariners and Royals are interested (probably not) to pressure Red Sox into making a deal.
I saw on X that the Ohtani a top CN Tower is a hologram projected from atop the Space Needle in Seattle, where it appears the real Ohtani is preparing to sign.
Which is a hologram projection of a hologram projection of Ohtani who’s currently at Disneyland waiting to sign with the Dodgers or Giants at one of the happiest places in the world.
That would explain the rumor from Imagineering HQ in Burbank that they’ve begun re-skinning all the out-of-service Jack Sparrow animatronics figures to resemble Shohei Ohtani.
The Royals were never going to trade prospects for a one-year addition like TO. You have to learn which rumors to discard. It’s like poker.
I mean
Royals could have been interested.
Buy low sell high trades do happen.
Royals could have bought low hoped he go nuts 1st half and sell high on a rental.
Stevil2 hours ago
He does make sense for Boston, though.
=========================
That’s what I like the most. Put TO in RF, Yoshida to DH, Duran in CF, and Rafael/Abreu in RF. Slowly putting together some semblance of defense and team speed.
“”Put TO in RF, Yoshida to DH, Duran in CF, and Rafael/Abreu in RF””
Hey Skippy 2 RF’ers and no LFer and you think that’s puting together some defense. What are you smokin’?
I thought the typo should be obvious, but fair enough, TO in LF.
Right field and reft field. Just cause they have a speech impediment doesn’t mean you should make fun of them.
That’s pretty much what happened with me. I was arguing he wasn’t a great fit for Seattle less than an hour ago, came back, and found this.
He does make sense for Boston, though. They needed a right-handed hitting outfielder with at least a little more power than Refsnyder and Rafaela.
Nice move depending on those going the other way. Not earth shattering but still a nice pick up
According to mlbtr link at 637 east its a 47 year Victor Santos. Likely to change.
Can’t wait to see the Hulk smash the Green monster!
Hulk smash himself?
Hulk with his 9 home runs
Hahaha
I think that’s a bit too much of a prediction.
I’m an O’Neill fan. I still believe in him. A change of scenery, esp out of St. Lou, will do him some good.
Welcome to Red Sox Nation!
you can be a stud. hurt the last 2 years, but when he was healthy, he put up nice stats. change of scenery will do him a lot of good. Can get back to being productive. I think your going to see a number of Red Sox signings and acquistions
Absolute best case landing spot.
Bostons been due for a fenway reclamation success story.
I could see him pulling a big papi/ jd martinez and put it all together.
But more akin to bautista in toronto.
Kid legit reminds me of paul oneil w more power
Not sure how u get more power than O’Neil, he hit 34hr in under 135g in 2021, the dude legit has as much power as literally anyone, just strikes out too much.. like most everyone
Htg i was just thinking about how boston is due for another fenway reclamation success story. Then this.
Kid checks all the bags boxes.
And is rarely on the field. One season over 500 at bats
ONeill is gonna crush it hitting in that ballpark. Enjoy Red Sox you got a good player who needed a change of scenery.
Who’s going to keep him off the IL?
if healthy 30 hrs 260
if healthy 30 hrs 260 k’s (finished it for you)
40HR/260K lol
odds of healthy 1-6 or 16.67% chance.
Big “if”
So what if it’s a big if?
He could legitimately be your best player in 2024. Gave up basically nothing. How could you not be happy about this?
I’m indifferent. You are right, the potential is there but the potential has only shown up 1 out of 6 seasons. He hasn’t even hit 300 at bats those other 5 seasons.
He’s replacing Verdugo most likely, so you’re replacing a 2.6 WAR player in 2023 with .3 WAR player in 2023.
Look at their career WAR not just 2023. And use Fangrpahs too.
1 out of 6 seasons? That’s nonsense you are stat bending for reasons I don’t understand. 2018 he was called up mid season. 2019 and 2020 he sat many games behind Fowler because Fowler had a big contract. 2021 he was great. 2022 and 2023 he was hurt. Just like Bader. Just like Carlson he was hurt both years.
I’m not Stat bending. I’m looking at less than 400 at bats in 5 out of 6 seasons. I may not know his whole history, but I’m using the stats in front of me.
Career WARs are similar but if O’Neill gives us 200 at bats, that’s not getting the job done and I haven’t bent anything there. He’s had maybe two decent seasons and his OBP isn’t even great career wise.
I think 30 homeruns and .260 is reasonable if he stays healthy but he’s eclipsed 300 at bats only twice, 400 once.
Verdugo is a year younger and has both a higher BA and OBP each year.
He was called up mid season in 2018. And obviously the Covid year doesn’t count. So it’s really 1 out of 4 seasons. And in 2019 he was mostly healthy the team sat him on the bench. He has sat on the bench healthy for a large number of games.
I think Verdugo is a safer bet in 2024. But ONeill when healthy is the better player. Verdugo is also a lefty not as good of a fit.
“I may not know his whole history, but I’m using the stats in front of me.“
Thus the problem of solely using stats to judge a player and his history. The context needs to be understood.
Yeah I am a Cardinal fan and perhaps ONeills biggest fan in the world. If anyone wants to know what ONeill is about just ask. I am an honest guy.
Joel, it wouldn’t matter if vintage Musial, Boyer & Gibson were involved. It is always the same posters that will hate every RS trade.
Yeah Cardinals got plenty of those guys too I hear you. Red Sox and Cardinals I see as being pretty similar so I imagine the fans are pretty similar too.
Either way, Verdugo had to go. Question is, will this guy have the same production or better?
I don’t have access to his games so I don’t have all choice in the matter. I use stats when I can
I understand where you are coming from. In a situation like this you got plenty of Cardinal fans that can share the inside story on what’s been going on with ONeill. ONeill earned the starting job with his play in 2018 and he didn’t get to start full time until 2021. Then he got hurt the last 2 years. But even with those injuries he sat on the bench many games healthy in both 2022 and 2023. You would think ONeill would be playing everyday when healthy but that wasn’t the case at all.
This. Verdugo’s laziness and bad attitude had to go regardless of who they got to replace him. O’Neill is in a dream scenario for a slugger: getting to spend a contract year aiming for the green monster.
Would still like to see the Sox sign Soler but that probably doesn’t happen now
Regarding his ability to stay healthy, roids will do that to you. The muscle injuries.
You can’t compare war when verdugo basically had his best season (still mediocre) and o’neil was injured. This is a nothing move with a nothing cost. People just have bloom flashbacks and are panicking.
Cue the STL FO comment: “We didn’t trade Tyler because of extraneous reports that he was at odds with management, his alleged lack of hustle, or his propensity for injury. We just had too many outfielders.” Cards fans nod in agreement: “Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.”
Every Cardinal fan knows what’s been going on with ONeill.
The manager is the real problem. ONeill is better off with the Red Sox.
Hear hear!
Like Verdugo with Cora
Verdugo and his grill and plat chains and gut were the problem, not Cora.
yes. MO fired the good manager because Schildt wasn’t a yes, sir guy.
Sounds similar to when they traded Arozarena . Mo said, “We had too many outfielders” (not the Facebook live of Schilt’s locker room speech with all the “F” bombs).
That was what, 2019, and we still have too many outfielders yet we move the gold glove second baseman to center field.
St. Louis front office needs a change. Hopefully moving Molina from special assistant to the GM to the Manager spot.
As a Crew fan I hope not, Molina needs to stay far far away from that cardinal dugout!
Don’t worry, I get the sense Mo feels the same way.
Not many tea leaves to read, but I got the feeling MO was not overly excited to have Molina around. Molina would be an emotional charge ahead leader. I don’t know if that gets results in today’s sports. Maybe college level leadership.
So pissed at this. My favourite Card traded, probably for donuts (as stated above) because Marmol is a strutting little martinet who needs someone to blame for his inadequacy
Hope he goes ballistic for you, Sox fans
One of the most shocking things I’ve seen on here, is that he was a favorite of someone.
Well it is someone who spells favorite with a ‘u’ lmao. So probably not from St. Louis
Correct. You’re welcome to borrow my language fella, but I’ll carry on using the original forms if that’s OK?
Well if you want to go back to England it’s ok.
Classy. Well done.
Canadian spelling. Which TO also is. Not surprised he’s the commeter’s favourite
Cardinals fans are strange birds.
Damn, y’all are toxic
The 34 home run video on YouTube never gets old
Yeah he’s my favorite player too. I knew thos day was coming but not happy. I will watch some Red Sox games next year for sure.
The juice is loose in Boston
RobblyDobs, I agree with your perspective on this deal… but what really earned that thumbs up was your characterization of Marmol as a “martinet.”
MLBTR version of a double-word score for you!!
Or, more realistically, he was probably traded for bullpen help.
Actually a couple of fringe prospects, one of whom missed last season with an elbow injury.
…so bullpen help. lol
Interesting….
He should hit pretty well at home at least.
Allen Craig, part deux.
Allen Craig was 3 year – $37,000,000. TO at one year – $5.5 million is no comparison. Lmao
Sorry I was referring to the player side not the money side.
Eznod – Cherington was an terrible GM, and every time Pablo Sandoval ($95,000,000), Hanley Ramirez ($88,000,000), Rusney Castillo ($72,500,000), Allen Craig ($37,000,00) are brought up it reminds me of how bad 2012, 2014, and 2015 were. They were far worse that the 2022, 2023 teams that were a couple games out at the trading deadline.
Ortiz carried the Red Sox to the World Series championship in 2013 along with Lester and Lackey….. I watched it all, but still find it hard to believe considering 2012 was so bad.
Surely with his immense trade value, the Cardinals are getting Bello and Casas back
Casas talks a good game when he is miked up. It was fun to hear his take as he played an inning wired.
Why does this post even have likes if it’s untrue? So misleading
You’re gonna be mindblown when you find out about sarcasm
Ah, good point. Sarcasm is sometimes hard to pick up written, without verbal intent. Never crossed my mind.
Take that Blue Jays. Ohtani who?!?
Cardinals like the AL East
If we gave up nothing I’m good
Probably something similar to what the Yankees gave up for Verdugo. Not a lot.
God forgive me but I already can’t even remember what we gave up for Verdugo.
No one of any real potential
A top 12 player in your farm system is nothing good?
Better than nothing.
Red Sox got a lot better return for Verdugo. Fitts slotted in as the Red Sox 10th best prospect on MLB.com, a lottery ticket/likely reliever in Judice and current reliever in Weissert.
Fitts much better than Robertson or Santos. Weissert probably same level as Robertson. Santos missed all of 2023.
My bad. Santos actually pitched in 2023.
Right now, Weissert has to rank above Robertson, imo.
@Joebrady – Agreed. Weissert was pretty dominant in AAA in 2022.
And, if you are willing to go with tiny sample sizes, he had a fine September with the NYY.
Nick Robetson and Victor Santos Vs. Richard Fitts, Greg Weissert and Nicholas Judice.
Per ‘Baseball Trade Values’, Red Sox obtained slightly more value than Cardinals. Im not saying this perfectly accurate, but it is an unbiased look, and good starting point.
baseballtradevalues.com/trade-simulator
Are you sure this time?
He definitely has potential based on his past. Will be interesting to see how he performs at Fenway.
One very good reliever or 2 so-so ones.
34 Home Runs in 2021. Sox needed a power bat, heres to hoping
Tip the canoe.
Wow talk about best case scenario landing spot.
If ever there was a ballpark to help oneill put it all together; fenway has a long track record in this regard.
Odds of him growing into an allstar just went up a lot in my books.
Nice buy low sox
Sincerely a rival jays fan.
Btw boooooo all boston sports teams
..except the pats. Thats gods team afterall.
Imo O’Neill will have a great year because it’s his contract year…with that said though I would never sign this guy to a long time contract…he doesn’t hustle and is a bit of a baby…very soft…but I think he will mash this year to impress his new club and get a good contract…on the other hand he might hurt his back or whatever and be out the entire year lol
He doesn’t hustle?
That’s lame nonsense. How does a guy get to be in that kind of shape without hustling????
That is not nonsense…although Oli did it the wrong way he definitely was right that he didn’t hustle on that play…they put him in CF and he let so many catchable balls fall in front of him…I will admit he is a good LF but he was horrible in CF because the lack of hustle…sorry I saw it…and he doesn’t want to play on turf because it hurts his knees…he guy is a cancer imo…just because he works out doesn’t mean anything in this situation
He should never have been sent on that ball with Acuna throwing and how hard the ball was hit.
He should have never have been on center field, especially when he was hurt and the goal was supposedly to keep him healthy.
Your take on him in center came from a few games last April. And yes he wasn’t good I agree. But he’s not a center fielder. Carlson should have been in center and Walker should have been at Memphis.
Ok I agree he shouldn’t have been in CF…but the problem is that he was the one who said he wanted to play CF and the cardinals granted his request…so that on him…I also agree he shouldn’t have been sent home but there is no denying that he was dogging it rounding third
He wanted to play. The team wanted Walker to play too so center was where ONeill had to go. They didn’t put ONeill in center because he asked to play there come on dude.
Walker was the problem. And he still is.
He most certainly asked to play CF..and he could have easily just played LF and let Noot have CF
ONeill doesn’t make those decisions. They don’t care what ONeill wants or anyone else. Those are decisions made by management.
Ok whatever Joel…I think you have some rose colored glasses on but you do you
I think you are hating on ONeill in a weird way like many Cardinal fans do.
I will be watching Red Sox games next year. Tell Jordan Walker I said hi.
Not hating on him at all…just calling it line I see it…I hope he has a good year and I think he will…but with his soft attitude and injury history we shall see…if anything your the one with a weird die hard obsession with O’Neil…and now you are hating on walker…which is weird itself
Walker produced .2 WAR last year. That’s terrible. And his presence is why ONeill was traded.
Agreed.
Actually, the Cardinals should have traded Goldschmidt and convinced Arenado to waive his no-trade clause for a trade and then place Nolan Gorman at 3b and Jordan Walker at 1b, with a middle infield consisting of Edman at ss and Donovan at 2b and an outfield consisting of Carlson, Nootbaar and O’Neill with Burleson at DH.
Instead, we’re going into 2024 with two converted infielders playing CF (Edman) and RF (Walker) and a true CF as the fourth outfielder (Carlson).and an infielder with little pop at DH (Donovan).
Thank you, Mo. Thank you. Outstanding job as always.
I mentioned at the trade deadline. They had 12 players on offense that were legitimate starters. The team would not have been hugely worse off starting 9 of them, besides Goldie & Arenado, acquiring some middling prospects, and then spending the $61M in savings on elite pitching.
They said Verdugo didn’t hustle either…it’s all about perspective. He probably had a couple of plays where he didn’t run full speed to first and got labeled as a non-hustler. If he can stay healthy then he should have a nice year for Boston despite his high strikeout totals.
The good news is that he has won two gold gloves in the OF so that will help Boston’s OF defense a lot.
Both guys are kind of idiots. And I say this as ONeill being my favorite player but he’s a bit of an idiot. On the other hand he’s never been treated well by the Cardinals organization.
Doesn’t Verdugo have a grill? You know like Nelly???
If he plays LF he will be fine yes…it’s not just the lack of hustle…they said he wouldn’t play until he was one hundred percent ready…which ok I kinda get but rubbed his teammates the wrong way…and then the won’t play on turf…he just wasn’t a team player
Those reports are false. Oneill never said those things the media made it up.
This is literally from an MLBtraderumors article
“With last year’s trade of Harrison Bader, the Cardinals have less certainty in center field than they have had in a few years. Dylan Carlson got significant playing time there down the stretch and has been seen as the favorite for the job going forward, but he’ll have competition. Tyler O’Neill told reporters, including Lynn Worthy of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, that he has his sights on the job.”
“O’Neill has also expressed a reluctance to play on fields with artificial turf because the turf isn’t kind to his knees. The Cardinals are in a tough position after tendering O’Neill a contract in hopes that they could hammer out a trade over the winter meetings.”
That’s made up nonsense about ONeill and the turf.
And what was ONeill supposed to say there?
Walker is the problem. He didn’t belong there in April. And he STILL doesn’t belong.
I bet ONeill has a better year than Walker does in 2024. Wait and see.
Lol Walker is the problem…gotcha
Walker sucks. He was awful last year. He’s certainly not the solution.
Speaking of nonsense…hey Tyler O’Neill I hope you do well in Boston…oh I mean Joel P…wink wink I got your back Tyler/ Joel
Cards81, what is this based on? I hadn’t heard he rubbed teammates the wrong way, nor that he wasn’t a team player. Marmol’s calling him out was utter garbage. Not only was the play in question a joke to call a lack of hustle, but the way Marmol did it in public allegedly after having spoke to him in private after the game and not bringing it up.
Marmol has shown other lapses in judgment, so not gonna fault TON here – I hope he does well in BOS. (Also hoping Carlson can escape STL, another mistreated player by the org.)
Exactly Kelland. And agree with Carlson too. The organization bent over backwards to get Jordan Walker on last years opening day lineup when he didn’t earn it and didn’t belong there.
I’m not defending Oli at all…I personally think he should have been fired…we shall see if he makes it through the year considering Molinas recent hiring…Helsley did an interview talking about cancers in the clubhouse and this was said about O’Neill…
“ within the organization, it looks like he is not a team player and is selfish. Given opportunity after opportunity and it keeps failing, this might be the end of Tyler O’Neill in St. Louis. ”
What????
Helsley said that?????
Dude you are making things up. And if he did who the heck is Helsley to say something like that????
That’s total nonsense dude. You are getting your news from some weird places.
I didn’t say Helsley said it…I see your confusion but it was said…sorry if I just keep throwing facts at you Joel/O’Neill but it is all true
Dude where do you get your information from the Fox News of Cardinal discussions?
Who said it then???? You provided a quote and then claim there is no source. What are you talking about????
“The most obvious player is Tyler O’Neill. This relationship has been in trouble from the very beginning of the season and never recovered. O’Neill confidently wanted to prove his worth to the organization by claiming the CF position and staying healthy to return to his 2021 production. Instead, we got an injury-riddled season of questionable injuries and terrible production at the plate.” the article was written by Mason Keith…hope that helps
Who is Mason Keith?????
Seriously dude. You are making things up.
Yea you’re right I’m quoting myself…geez dude I’m providing evidence and all you can come back with is I’m making it up
He gets it from the MSNBC of Cardinal discussions..
I’m hoping Descalso or Schumacher get the job before Molina.
That’s not evidence that’s some random dude writing things he thinks fans want to read with no facts to back it up.
Skip isn’t happy in Miami. Need someone with experience no more rookie managers. Descalso looks too much like Marmol lol.
Fox News of Cardinals Nation. I ain’t watching that crap. What channel on the dial is that?
I believe Descalso and Schumacher played together and were of similar attitude and thought. That’s what I’m gonna tell everybody.
The organization bent over backwards to get Jordan Walker on last years opening day lineup when he didn’t earn it and didn’t belong there.
====================
Teams are doing this more often. He had 32 Ks in 113 AAA ABs. That’s 170/600 ABs, which probably translates to 200/600 MLB ABs. If he was 24 maybe you want to give him a shot before he ages out, but at age 21, they should’ve kept in in AAA until he cut the Ks by at least 1/3.
As a RS fan, I am not overly concerned about writers opinions. And even at that, all he said was the TO was injured and under-performed.
Joe Walker had never played an inning at AAA and he was in the opening day lineup for the Cardinals in 2023. Because of this Carlson was benched and ONeill was put in center. All so Walker could not just be in the lineup but play the field for reasons nobody could ever explain.
Walker was sent down a few weeks later. There at AAA he performed poorly those are the numbers you are sharing. Then after not earning a promotion he got one anyways in early June.
One day Walker will be a good player. But that one day sure as heck wasn’t 2023.
As a Red Sox fan I don’t see how you couldn’t be happy about this. ONeill is a tough hard nosed guy despite what some weirdos in St Louis say. He could legitimately be your best player in 2024. And that’s not a knock on the rest of the team at all.
He seems more temper mental and passionate ala josh donaldson.
Legit looks like a poisoned relationship with the team.
Dogging it is how he sulks.
Watch him roid rage over compensate in boston
Contract years aren’t always a good year. Don’t bank on that
Glad this happened for him and for us. I think he’ll do well there.
He will be a great fit in Boston if he stays healthy
The Cards needed to do this. Don’t really care what we get back, a reliever would be fine. Not really sure why Boston would do this though.
Oli Marmol is one who should be traded. Or fired.
Cmon bullpen arm!
They probably traded one of the pitchers they got for Verdugo along with another Top 30 RP from the minors.
Now that the pieces have been announced, Boston didn’t give up anyone of real value to acquire O’Neill so this looks like a great trade for Boston so long as O’Neill can stay healthy this season.
YES!!!!!!!!
When the offseason began, this was the guy I was hoping for!
Just what they needed a new JBJ a guy that can’t hit but plays GG level outfield
Team with just as bad as the few yrs under that clown Bloom nothings going to change with the new clown either we need new owners
You must not know anything about TON because he is NOTHING like JBJ lol
Go look at his career – that one good year he been just a horrible as JBJ
This is the big news we have all been waiting for today.
Wow
Pretty similar to Duvall.
With a much better defensive profile
Basically a league avg hitter all but one year. So not the worse and you can hope for something better.
Great baserunner. 2 time gold glover. You can’t judge ONeill by offensive stats alone.
Maybe why I said league avg hitter. At the end of the day that stat can’t be dismissed either.
He’s not exactly a league average hitter. His career doesn’t suggest that at all.
His last two season say he is a little below avg…you are correct.
That’s why I said you can hope for more.
He’s been average the last 2 injury riddled seasons
His CAREER says hes above average. And that’s just offense he’s a great base runner and 2 time gold glove winner.
Would have been a great fit for the Padres but probably over their budget.
My bad, that explains the massive return they got for him which is basically two buckets of balls.
Dang why didn’t they get more back? Surely someone sees what he did 3 seasons ago besides you.
You know what the Cardinals got for Adolis Garcia?
Lane Thomas?
Randy Arozarena?
The fact that the Cardinals were trading an outfielder should have got the attention of every team in baseball. But again probably too much salary for the Padres to take on.
Warning Joel is obviously a burner account for O’Neill lol
Weird ONeill haters all over St Louis. Now you gotta find someone else to blame fella. Who will it be?
Yeah and every other team in the league that could have traded nothing today for the next superstar. I guess the Red Sox just hired the greatest future gm in history.
He knows that when the cards trade an outfielder they will be stars.
Cardinals traded away a ton of good outfielders. Jordan Walker sucks. Tommy Edman is a middle infielder. And both guys will be starting outfielders opening day for the Cardinals.
Now stop it! I’ll grant you that Arozarena will sting for a long time but c’mon — Adolis Garcia? The guy all other teams passed up on, including the Rangers the first time? Or Lane Thomas, who was a 5th outfielder and had no future in St. Louis? I’m sure you lament Harrison Bader, too, who flamed out and is still a free agent.
I’m going to ask that everyone blame you. And don’t try to talk your way out of it. Take responsibility.
Dude was fantastic in 2021 then fell off a cliff. Might work out for Boston, even half way between last year and 2021 would be worthwhile.
Basically Ohtani
Like this a lot for my Red Sox. O’neill’s high-pull, high FB approach should really play well at Fenway, and he brings some much needed defensive talent to balance out Duran and Yoshida. As long as the return is appropriate for a buy-low and the FO doesn’t do something stupid like making him the starting CF, I greatly prefer this route over giving a bat-only type like Hernandez, Gurriel, or Soler $50M.
He is a pull hitter although he shouldn’t be. He needs a good hitting coach hopefully for your sake Boston has one.
I wouldn’t put him in center at all. Especially not at that ballpark.
Eh. At Fenway it sometimes pays to be a cheesy RH pull hitter. Adam Duvall just had a career year at the plate doing exactly that
Hes not a pull hitter. Puts a lot of balls over CF
Also, O’Neill is in a contract year, so he should be very focused and motivated.
About time, I hope we got a decent bullpen piece of some mid minor pitching prospects.
He will do with cora as a manager
How can we believe anything from these “insiders” after today?
About time, I hope we got a decent bullpen piece or some milb pitchers with upside potential
You got two bullpen arms, but neither of them are overly exciting. At least Robertson has some MLB experience, but he hasn’t fared too well so far. They are both young and I guess they have some upside, but as of right now, this seems like a very light package to acquire O’Neill even if it’s just for one season.
It’s a salary dump for the Cardinals so they can pursue more free agents. To Cardinals fans this move makes total sense.
They cleared a few outfield at-bats too. I don’t care if the pitchers develop into anything or not.
He’s being traded for Allen Craig.
I would gladly take that trade today
didn’t Allen Craig switch to pitching? or was it to a bottom from a top? lol. nah, just kidding.
Well, we are always looking for a fourth “fifth starter” in our rotation!
Yep, Yamamoto and Cease are way too good and too young for our rotation. It just doesn’t make sense to buy a 25 yo ace to readline our staff. These other teams are stupid. Cardinals will prove that trading the 2023 rotation for the same rotation by another name in 2024 will work the 2nd time around. Look at our staff, same pitchers as last year only with different names. You are going to have to “Show Me” this staff will get us to the playoffs. Try won’t.pa
What a ripoff Craig to Boston was. Boston should still be mad about that trade.
Joe Kelly actually performed very well for us.
We will miss your sweet swing and crazy power. Great defense too. Thanks for 2021….hope he can find that again and stay healthy! May your next manager give you the respect you deserve!
And some of us will not miss him at all.
I heard his constant injuries are due to being extremely muscle-bound. Like he lifts way too much…trying to be a body builder. Hopefully the RS can get him to chill out on his Hulk Hogan aspirations. He got MVP votes in 2021.
If we spent big on an outfielder that would be stupid. O’neill is exactly the type of value add Breslow should go for in that area. The big money and blue chip prospects should go towards pitching, pitching, and pitching for the Red Sox.
Didn’t see that one coming.
What is the other half of the deal. It has best be a can of baked beans and a snow cone.
And a can of baked beans and a snow cone it is!
Next!
Breslow is as useless as Bloom. I’ve defended Henry for awhile, but he needs to sell the team to someone who cares about the Sox. He has too many franchises that the Sox are an after thought for him
The self proclaimed BFIB expect Devers to be coming back the other way of course.
Guy has upside. 2021 he had mvp caliber year. If he’s healthy could be a solid trade.
Whew! If the M’s organization is looking for players who don’t strike out as much, they dodged a bullet here.
Cards clearing roster space for their Ohtani signing
If Bloom made this trade, regardless of the cards return, most Boston fan would be convulsing on the floor while sh!dding their pants.
Oneill is a stupid get. What do they need him for? Taking up space on the IL before he hits free agency? People will point to his last/only good year going on 3 years ago saying that’s what the Red Sox need. Well, the cardinals needed that for the last two plus years, too. But the dude was either hurt or just not producing.
Nah, I would still be happy. Angry he traded Verdugo, but it wouldn’t add to the frustration.
Let’s the kids play! Why Breslow?! Should have traded for Edman not O’Neil.
Thank you no Mariners phew
Ryan O’neil of Love Story has passed away at 82. Rest in Peace!
BREAKING NEWS: The Boston Red Sox have traded for a right-handed less durable Alex Verdugo from the St. Louis Cardinals per Jon Heyman
Give it time. Could be a steal for you guys. A lot of Cards fans really pissed with this.
Robertson is not good. Santos won’t probably make the big leagues
If the package is what Alex Speier reports (Robertson + Santos), I love this trade for Boston. O’Neill is a low-cost, high-upside fourth outfielder who profiles well in Fenway and has desperately needed a change of scenery since all the drama with him last year. Could be worth a lot more than they’re surrendering for him.
They already traded Roberson?
Robertson + Santos is nothing. Completely superfluous with those Yankees pitchers coming in. Really liking this move for Breslow
That looks like a pile of waiver fodder. I thought they were getting Glasnow for this guy straight up?
Could be worth a lot less???? That is the fun of it all, right??
Yeah I hate the move for the Cardinals.
Enjoy Robertson. Maybe you guys will end up with Bellinger or maybe even Ohtani. Rather have you get him over the Jays or Dodgers
Why? Cards have been screaming their disinterest in TON all off-season. It is clear they were not keeping him around, that combined with the mixed results from him the last couple seasons leaves him with exactly this level of value. Cards are a hot mess – I feel bad for Sonny Gray coming into this dumpster fire.
Cardinals making room for Ohtani
.500 hitter at Fenway with a .833 SLG. He will easily make fans forget about Ortiz
BoSox fans will never forget Big Papi and after the 2013 WS neither will StL fans.
I like Tyler. He is built like a tank, runs like a race car, but breaks down like a Ford Pinto. If he stays on the field, he is a complete player. Now that Mozeliak has traded him, look for him to join Arozarena and Adolis Garcia at the 2024 All Star Game.
Hey there Red Sox fans. Lifelong Cards fan here…..I think you guys will be thrilled with O’Neill. I was thinking he was going to have a strong comeback year in 24. Tyler can fly when healthy, great gold glove defense in leftfield, and potent power when healthy. That will be the crux….can he stay healthy? If so, you guys got a good one.
I don’t like this move at all if they’re expecting him to produce an OPS+ over 100. If it’s for his glove, fine, depending on what they gave up.
Seems fine to me after seeing the full deal.
Robertson and Santos??????
These 2 look like complete nobodies. Good lord. Marmol and Mozeliak are on borrowed time in St Louis
I hope you are right about the borrowed time. Sure would be refreshing to have someone else in both positions.
Fingers crossed Oli is done when his contract expires after this season. No has also said he is exiting soon, right? I agree the team will be much better without them. I only moved here (STL) a couple of years ago and was excited to live in this city famous for “best fans in baseball” – but I gotta say it has been rough trying to fall in love with the team with Marmol at the healm, dude is a clown. ‘22 had its magic and Marmol was a nobody in the background – but without Yadi and Pujols running the team the dumpster fire that is Marmol was is plain view for ‘23 – I attribute the trash season to Marmol’s inability to lead. We’ll see what next season has in store
Yeah Marmol is the problem for sure. I doubt he’s around last July.
TV doesn’t show Marmol in the dugout. I just wonder how he acts in that public venue. My impression is not good.
Who could they have gotten instead for a 1-year rental? Or are you saying the Cardinals should have kept O’Neill and their 8 other outfielders on the 40-man roster?
I’ve seen some freakin BOMBS hit at Miller Park/AmFam Field, but in ‘22 was sitting front row first base side, O’Neil hit one some 480’ off Burnes, (if I recollect correctly) but the way that freaking ball was elevated off his bat yet maintained freakish EV was insane, looked like he was hitting a golf ball with an aluminum bat, made me think of Scott Steiner always mentioning his physique wasn’t just for show but it could “go” as well cause O’Neil is apparently also a bit of a “Genetic Freak” and can certainly go.. his dad was a famous bodybuilder in Canada I believe.. must be nice being able to pair genetics and having a Dad with decades of Anabolic expertise and loads of connections, anyway O’Neil might be the most underrated talent in MLB (or perhaps it was cardinals mismanagement/injuries keeping him down) but at age 28 I still expect big things to come from him, with his speed/arm can’t he play center because I really see him having great value there if it’s possible….. also the game he hit that bomb was the same game Vogey hit his walkoff slam, the ultimate SLAM!
So the Cards got next to nothing for O’neil….sounds about right.
Toronto- Ohtani (quite possibly)
New York- Soto
Baltimore- Kimbrel and quite possibly competent ownership
Boston- Tyler O’Neil
(Wet fart)
🙂
I wish Tyler well. And I see he’s still not in the lineup today.
Bye.
Who you gonna troll now fella?
Team got worse. You are happy. And that’s pathetic.
We can step outside if you want?
😉
You gonna report me? Little guy….
you promised not to Use and Post.
Get clean, dude. Make it make sense
Get a life fella. Tell Beth I said hi. Isn’t there a minor league game on somewhere?
This is the equivalent of a bucket of balls and a tub of chewing gum for O’Neill. Just clearing up the outfield and a salary dump for St. Louis.
He’s arbitration eligible fella. Not a salary dump although the return looks really bad.
If the Cardinals are under 500 in July and ONeill is tearing it up for the Red Sox Marmol is gonna be changing tires at the local Wal Mart come August. And Mozeliak has one foot out the door as well.
Sportstrac has him listed at around $5.4 million and they are pretty accurate.
I have always liked him when he was with the M’s and his power potential, but he just can’t stay on the field.
Well if he’s hurt so what? The Red Sox gave up almost nothing for him. If he’s healthy he could be their best player in 2024. That’s a real possibility. And they gave up almost nothing.
He is a salary dump. He clears $5.5 million for the Cards to invest elsewhere.
Invest 5,5 in the FO pockets. I doubt they invest in any decent pitchers.
Just what the Cardinals needed.
I hope Mo & the FO cleared this move with Yadi.
I’ve got no negative feelings about O’Neil. I think after he was called out last season it was clear there was no salvaging the relationship with him. I hope he has a great season for the Red Sox’s. No idea what we got but I know no matter what we still have some holes to fill if we want to be contenders in not only the central but the n.l.
Barely better than a non tender.
I’ll just say what no one else has….
Tyler O’Neill > Alex Verdugo
Red Sox improve here.
Similar players. If both are healthy ONeill is better. Verdugo is a better bet to be healthy.
Excuse me… ONeill did not get in a “spat” with Marmol…. It was the STL Marmol who mistakenly went public with his criticism of ONeill. ONeill was extremely professional in his public responses to Marmol’s stupidity and conduct unbecoming of a MLB manager. Glad to see ONeill is going somewhere where he will have the opportunity to play a fixed OF position on a daily basis and hit in a batting order that is not juggled every game by a manager like Marmol, who simply has and never will have a clue how to manage MLB level players.
Exactly
O’Neill and Duran both on one team. 2 of the biggest egos in all of the MLB for underperformers. I can see some club house fights for this Redsox team
Actually, since both he and Duran are gym rats, I’d expect them get along fine.
It’s everyone else I’d worry about. 😀 lol
I like it! Honestly I think TON is a very interesting change of scenery candidate. If he’s healthy he has already demonstrated he has some elite tools. I was hoping the Giants would kick the tires on him.
TON has a very un-baseball body and it’s beginning to show up in the form of lots of muscle injuries. For those who haven’t watched him, he’s jacked up like a body builder. The weird thing about him is he somehow manages to be very fast despite the extreme muscularity, but if ever there was a guy destined to decline early (say, about now) it’s him.
Thank goodness that is over! Glad he is gone. Good luck to him in Boston. Hopefully he will prove to me he is not a one hit wonder!
You have the wrong Victor Santos linked!!
The Victor Santos linked in this article is 47 years old and last played in MLB in 2007.
Perfect fit for the cardinals
ROFL – when I saw that I just mentally shrugged. It fits Mo/Marmol’s tendency toward aging veterans perfectly.
Muscle man poser with 9 home runs?
He’s a decent buy-low guy, but for Boston, this is really buying low.
Are you mad? Good Lord this is a great get for the Red Sox. ONeill could legitimately be the best player on the 2024 Red Sox and they just got him for 2 nobody pitchers.
How could you not like this move????
“…ONeill could legitimately be the best player on the 2024 Red Sox…”
—–
This can be true while also being a bad thing.
Good point, but I also think Joel is being sarcastic.
Sox fans, what’s your break point on games played/missed for Tyler?
Do you consider him your starting LF? Or is he a bench player and missing games won’t matter?
This Craviduce guy is a local St Louis troll don’t mind him. He hates ONeill for weird reasons like many Cardinal fans do.
You got a good player Sox fans.
Starting LF, imo. Yoshida to DH. We are going to have a very fast OF if Rafael starts in RF.
This guy is a troll Joe. Don’t mind him. There are a lot of weirdo ONeill haters in St Louis and he’s one of them.
If O’Neill doesn’t get hurt in Spring Training he starts in LF.
If O’Neill plays 100 games, he is an unqualified success.
Oh, he’ll earn the starting spot. Then, he’ll run into the green monster and be out six weeks.
Tyler O’neil traded on the same day Ryan O’neil dies? Has anyone checked in on Paul O’Neill?
The Red Sox were much better off with Verdugo, O’Neill is the dollar store version
Give me O’Neill over Verdugo any day. O’Neill is a bigger health risk and has been more inconsistent the past couple of years, but his ceiling is much higher. Verdugo at his best is a low end 3rd outfielder, while O’Neill at his best is an All-Star.
The only advantage Verdugo has on O’neill is health. O’neill’s overall production, even his down years, was essentially the same as Verdugo on a rate basis. And his ceiling is much higher
May the change of scenery for Tyler O’Neill work out as well for the Red Sox as Paul O’Neill did for the Yankees.
RSox fans don’t sound happy here but I think they got a solid player poised for a bounce-back season. Sometimes a new gig is all it takes. Dude has talent.
RSox fans don’t sound happy
=============================
It’s always the same ones, and they hate every RS move.
And several are Trolls that I just ignore.
2024 comes down to which two SP’s they add. I’d love YY but if they get Monty I’m fine. I think there are several that would work out. The reason I like Wacha for the 2d add is how well he handled Fenway when he started for the Sox. If the Sox had signed Wacha instead of Kluber last year it would have made a huge difference.
Solid call on Wacha.
Kinda wish my Reds would go get him as he’s a “groundball inducing pitcher” here in GABP.
Thank you Boston, I was so sure he was gonna be the mariner’s big bat they need
He makes too much money for the Mariners.
So, Bloom still running the Red Sox?
Injuries derailed him, but I mean potentially a solid low key deal for the Sox.
Víctor santos the prized 47 year old prospect
STL chose Marmol, a yes man. with big ego The type is well known and pitiful pretending to be leader. This is all MO could get from the glut of OF,IF/OF guys they carried ? They couldn’t get better at trade deadline 2023 ? What a sad state of affairs in STL, a great baseball city and formerly premier franchise.. Boston stands to win nicely in this trade. And if O’Neil hits .200 sox break even. Several teams seeking RH OF. At least STL sent him out of NL.
Cardinals should have traded O’Neill after the 2022 season. THAT was the time to strike. Now? He’s a salary dump.
It’s baseball (shrug)
If he can stay healthy (hopefully a priority in a walk year), this could be a steal.
Im good with this move ..oniel has a shot to regain whatever he had in 2021 and didnt give up much
Good move by both teams.
Red Sox get a cheap player that has the capability of smashing 40 HR and stealing 15 SB who they can trade at the deadline if needed. As a St. Louis fan, I think O’Neill will respond with a very good year in Boston. He HAD to get away from Oli Marmol.
Cardinals knew they couldn’t get much with a one-year rental so they settle for a mid-tier and low-tier prospects and now have $5.5 million to help them fill out the bullpen – they want to sign 2 relief pitchers via free agency.. Plus, it unplugs the logjam of outfielders they have, which was desperately needed.
All in all, I like this for both teams.
So TON for Glasnow isn’t happening?
Cardinals valued 47-year-old Santos more. 😉
Will these 2 pitchers make the 40 man roster? Looks like Boston got a good deal
Victor Santos? Probably not. He’s 47 years old.
Right now, Nick Robertson would be in the Cardinals bullpen. If they bring in, say, Jordan Hicks and Matsui from Japan, than no.
But seriously, folks, this was a SALARY DUMP for the Cardinals. Surely nobody expected the Red Sox to give up anything of value for a 1-year rental that Marmol absolutely detests.
Again – it does what it does. It clears up space and free agency money to get O’Neill’s salary off the books, and Boston gets a starter/4th outfielder who is a damn good player when not injured.
Not a SALARY DUMP, just a byproduct of Marmol/Mo not wanting him around. He could have made league minimum and he’d be a goner.
It is a salary dump. Clears $5.5 million to invest toward the bullpen.
Yes, it obvs clears salary, but they are dumping TON. Like I said, they’d be dumping him even if paid league minimum.
traded for absolutely nothing. Cards FO master class
So many positive comments from Cardinals fans about this player we’re bringing in. Much appreciated and I likewise hope the two pitchers going to St Louis work out well.
He will be pounding balls off and over the green monster as long as he’s healthy. He’s also a gold glove fielder. Obviously he’s had trouble staying healthy.
Boston takes a worthy risk at very little cost.
The best O’Reilly in Boston sports will always be Terry, but this is a nice buy-low acquisition
O’Neil and Duran in the outfield has got to be the biggest combined bicep size in all of mlb
B for Boston. Two relievers who can easily be replaced. TON should put up better numbers in Boston. If SD gets back to 2023 spending levels I can see him getting 280m in free agency.
C for STL. Fair expected return. Robertson has potential to be solid mlb reliever and is ready now. Wouldn’t rule Santos out.
Colby Rasmus
Steven Piscotty
Randall Grichuk
……
Tyler O’Neil.
Salary dump, put that money towards FA reliever… that’s the trade.
Bingo.
I guess if you like guys who are low BA and average wOBA. Sure…
This is All Marmols fault! I know BroNeil wasn’t playing full speed when he got back from an injury, wouldn’t play on certain turf, and the guy Always had some kind of injury but he’s a five tool player at his best and Marmol called out a few players last year that should’ve been kept private! It’s for the best but it still sucks…
Future Headline:
“Duran tears pectoral in bench press competition with O’neill who injures back trying to help”
would have preferred the Yankees get T.O. over Verdugo
No thanks on T.O. Verdugo will do fine at Yankee stadium.
It will be interesting to see who performs better in the coming year.
Info on Santos is incorrect. He pitched 145 innings with a 4.97 ERA in 2022. He did not pitch in 2023.
Nice Pickup, but watch, he will have a career year in Boston, then sign in the offseason with the Yankees.
Then change his first name to Paul.
LOVE ❤️ THIS TRADE! IF He’s Healthy He’ll Rock Fenway Park! Gave up nothing as well. Awesome Job pray for health and we got a gamer in T.O.! Dirtdog coming to Beantown!
Yoshida, Duran, Abreu, Rafaela, Refsnider, and now O’Neill. Who goes and how?
Rafaela or Abreu can start the season in AAA if necessary.
Best part of the deal is that we can legit send Yoshida to DH. Just imho, it should be TON/Duran and a Rafale/Abreu platoon in RF, with Ref as the #5.
And maybe Yoshida occasionally plays LF, and maybe Rafael backs up SS & 2B.
I could see Rafaela or Abreu being traded. Or Refsnyder being cut/dumped as a throw-in in a larger deal. With Bloom gone Breslow may not want to continue that project.
I like the trade by Breslow gave up superfluous pitchers who weren’t going to make the big league club and in the case of Santos probably never will.
O’Neil will bring competition for the young outfielders and some insurance if they can’t hit. Don’t know a lot about the guy but looks like he can help with the needed right handed power now add Merrifield to further balance the lineup and call it a day on position players.
Does Joel P still think the Rays will get less for Glasnow? Lol
He argued that point for 6 hours. They got waiver trash. I guess they save a few million
This is ridiculously light for ONeill.
Wait and see what Glasnow brings back. Wait and see. If ONeill at 5.5 million is worth this what do you think Glasnow is worth????
Eh, I don’t really have the energy to go through this again and I shouldn’t even brought it up (I apologize for that Joel, it was kind of low.) I think to sum it up it was more about the point of there being a higher market for a pitcher with upside then a good fielding outfielder hoping to bounce back offensively. I wish you well.
This could be another mark for MO. He is trying to set the record for trading away All-Star players.
We are at 2 pitchers and 2 OF right now unless I’m forgetting somebody. Count on O’Neill being an All-Star this summe.
Mariners continuing to blow it…
Interesting that some teams are improving what they need to.
Not sure how I feel about this.. he can hit homeruns but doesn’t really hit for average. I heard he was injury prone last year. It seems like again we are trying to maximize every dollar rather than buy the prizes we desperately need
It’s a good risk reward pick up. You didn’t give up anything big. You add a right handed, proven bat to slot between the left handed Casas and Devers. The question is, how healthy can he be? O’Neill could be the next Stanton with the nagging injuries.
Even if O’Neill plays 130 games, with a .260+ BA and 25+ homers it is a good acquisition.
It all comes down to if they get Yamamoto and trade for a guy like Burnes and add 3 or 4 quality bullpen arms. Two quality starters allows a 3, 4, 5 of Sale, Bello and Paxton with Crawford, Houck and Pivetta as swing men. You can move Whitlock into a setup role which he seems perfect for. You have to hope Devers and Casas can at least provide serviceable defense. I can’t believe they can be as bad as they were last year,
That .231 average and 9 Homeruns along with being admonished for lack of hustle, plus his injury history should put us over the top. Great pickup. Is Breslow for real? You could have gotten this guy for a bag of used baseballs. Breslow is making Chaim Bloom look like a decent Baseball Ops guy.we’re back baby !!!
You are getting a pretty talented guy. First off O’Neill plays hard. He might be a little different, some say aloof. But he has no off the field problems that I know of. And if he isn’t Mr.
jovial personality so what! Yes he has had a couple of injury marred seasons, but he is worth a gamble. It is 1 year. I know nothing about the two pitchers he was moved for, but the Sox got a guy who might solve problems.
Marmol was causing all sorts of weird drama last season. I’m not worried about the effort thing for O’neill when the only evidence of it was Marmol’s words
clock is ticking on Dalbec….
Well. it’s something. Good to see Breslow is still among the living.
The short porch in left is actually better for his fielding and back. Less ground to cover so less likely to strain a muscle in back, groin, hammy, and/or quad. Offensively it means nothing. Dude would hit homers in Yellowstone if he stays healthy. IF!
great job by breslow low risk high reward could see o’neill being a cody ross type pick-up
Boston should use the injury prone O’Neil as the dh. He would possibly put up big numbers
They’re not going to do that. Yoshida, Devers, and Casas all need DH reps, and O’neill gets a lot of his value from his defense
Yeah, Cards had enough outfielders to do that at least part of the time. He’s a good fielder but I held my breath when he did the difficult plays. He could become one of the best dh’s I believe if he was left there like a few others are. He needs to slow down with the weight lifting.
I’ve thought that too. His speed makes him a relatively great left-fielder (compared only to other left-fielders), but that’s where he often gets injured.
This is a great move by the Red Sox. O’Neill at his best is a very good all around player, and they gave up almost absolutely nothing to get him. Could be a better version of their 2023 Adam Duvall if he can stay healthy and rebound with the bat. No idea why any of my fellow Sox fans would be upset about this move. Solid trade.
As a Cardinals fan, all I can say is that I’m disappointed. A lot of fans on here are bashing him but I like O’Neill. He’s very talented and was projected to cost $5.5m. The team was better with him. I expect him to put up 2021 type numbers with a team supporting him. Red Sox got a good player. I feel like they give up on the wrong players based on feelings. Oli may not survive the season yet his rift with Tyler probably played a role here.
Congrats to O’Neill for getting out of cesspool east Missouri!! You can now play for a class organization that will appreciate you.
What is going on with Ohtani?!????
Cardinals should have gotten more for O’Neill than two C-grade pitchers, neither of whom figure to be a real asset in 2024.
Ohtani? He’s starting to learn the lyrics to “O Canada”.
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/12/blue-jays-to-reportedly…
There is a site called MLB Rumors which provides updates.
We have enough players that suck. Last place, here we come.
overall, after reading most comments and discarding really useless drivel, Boston made a well thought trade/gamble , trading 2 suspect RP from organization for player who within post-covid 3 seasons has flashed between all star and injured non-renewal. For STL, only the salary relief is positive, though I guess maybe 1 of 2 RP they got will make roster. For Boston, close to nothing lost except the 5.5 salary they owe O’Neill and the gain side could be pretty high. Inside track to re-sign is a small plus as well.
“A-” for Boston(5.5M), D for STL
^^^
Boston is dangerous when they are making well thought out tactical moves
westcasey – Seriously? Wow you must be a disgruntled STL fan. Boston gets a guy who is depth at a higher cost than they should have paid for depth. The player had his 15 minutes of fame in 2021 and all other years sucked. Grading such a trivial deal is a waste of time but since he’s not as good as what they have I can’t give Boston any more than a C and that only works if he shows some of what he did in 2021 otherwise it’s an F. The Cardinals dumped salary and gained arms. This is just like the Verdugo deal for Boston. It’s a win for STL and deserves an A because the objective was achieved. O”Neill was dumped. The minor leaguers don’t have to produce a thing for this to be a win for STL just like the minor league players in the Verdugo deal don’t have to produce for that deal to be an A for Breslow.
Nothing was going to happen with Othani until the O’Neill piece fell. (Someone is going to think this is a serious comment.)
Here’s another way to look at the past couple of days. The two pitchers the Red Sox shipped out are definitely not as good as the two pitchers they brought in. Facts.
Then Alex Verdugo’s $9 million traded out (and it was sort of necessary According to some internal dynamics,) and bring in someone with more home run potential, good fielding, and only $5.5 million.
On paper this is outstanding. Craig Breslow is doing an outstanding job so far.
So many people don’t understand not every play to build your team is a home run.
So many fans here have a problem for every solution.
Some fans want headlines other fans want a good baseball organization them will win because its Foundation is solid.
Personally I’m loving this so far. Win win. Fingers crossed for the number one Japanese pitcher plus one more starter on the trade market.
Second base will be addressed, couple Bullpen guys, and go from there. See how spring training is sorted out. Lots to look forward to and it’s only December 9th.
Some fans want headlines other fans want a good baseball organization them will win because its Foundation is solid.
=======================
That’s basically it. I still remember how excited some fans were when we acquired Crawford and Gonzo. The correct players to acquire were Willingham and Headley, but the casual fans would not have approved.
Agree Gary I really like how Breslow is moving the pieces around on the board. It’s also important to remember that the high end free agent pitching market isn’t really up to Breslow. He isn’t going to get cart blanche to go over 300 million for Yamamoto, 200 million for Monty or 225 for Snell. Those are ownership decisions he’s doing a nice job with controlling what he can control.
I agree. A staff of: 1.YY or Monty, 2. Sale, 3.Wacha or Lugo, 4.Bello 5.- Swing 6. Pivevyta & Crawford. bull pen : Kenley, Martin, Whitlock, Houck, Winc, Schrieber Bernadino. That’s 13. The rest need to have options.
Simply put, the Red Sox improved their team while the cardinals made theirs worse.
Cardinals seem to be on the verge of falling off a cliff. The pitching they signed, then the return for O’Neil ? There return on investment is off.
This team looked WAY better going into last season. Their farm is weak and funds are low. I think they have bottomed out and are in denial of it. Which leaves you at the bottom for many seasons. Definitely a make or break season for the franchise as 2025 looks very dark.
The return for O’Neill was $5.5 million they can spend on the bullpen, which was horrific last year. .
O’Neill – even though I disagree with management – had no future in St. Louis. They want Jordan Walker in RF and Lars Nootbaar in LFT, and until Victor Scott II is ready (2025?) they are happy with Edman and Carlson platooning in CF.
Since the All-Star break, and including this trade, the Cardinals have brought in 11 new players, 9 of them pitchers, 7 of them starting pitchers, with the minors now topped off by Tink Hence and Tekoah Roby.
Those are facts. If you think the Cardinals are worse off because they shipped out a constantly injured guy who hit 9 HR last year, than I’d hate to live in your world.
My point is nothing the cardinals have done all offseason has made their team better and their team wasn’t very good in the first place.
Gray is no ace. If your team is a contender and he’s on it then he’s your 2nd or 3rd pitcher. Cards #3 right now is lance lynn. Yikes ! Cards will have one of the highest eras in league
Walker Gorman gray and arenado are 4 quality players to build around but that’s all the cards got. And 4 players can only carry u so far.
Nice move for Boston.
Breslow’s moves so far are fairly inconsequential. The O’Neill move will accomplish one of two things:
1 – It will delay the growth of the young outfielders
2 – He will be expensive depth but not terribly expensive depth.
O’Neill doesn’t have the talent of Anthony, Duran or Rafaela. He might be comparable to Abreu but at his price compared to the prices of the other outfielders he’s expensive.
So far Breslow has addressed just one issue and that was dumping Verdugo so congrats on the one significant move.
All the minor moves are hard to evaluate because the players are so inexperienced. We do know that O’Neill is a below league average player that’s not good on defense but is half the price of Verdugo. Is that good? I don’t think so. On the other deals I could understand getting cheap young arms that might blossom but getting a 29 year old outfielder with a career 112 OPS+ which is driven by just ONE of his six seasons where in 2021 his OPS+ was 148 and the other four of the other five seasons it was below 100. This move reminds me of when Bloom picked up Perez because he had a moment of brilliance and then stunk but the moment was thought to be something he could reproduce but didn’t in Boston.
As of now the checklist isn’t being addressed which concerns me deeply. He’s looking a lot more like Bloom than DD and this team needed a DD to bring them back from disaster.
For the newly anointed apologists for Breslow, he’s done nothing great so far. His best move is the Verdugo dumping. He hasn’t addressed the elephant in the room with Devers. He hasn’t addressed the other elephant in the room with Cora. He hasn’t worked a trade nor signed a free agent to meet our biggest acquisition needs. So basically, he has next to nothing to evaluate him on except he’s not decisive in procuring things he needs.
If he thinks Yamamoto is going elsewhere then the deals for guys like Bieber or Burnes need to be happening. Heck, even if he thinks he’s going to get Yamamoto they need to be happening.
Suggesting that Breslow is moving the pieces around on the board is a gross over exaggeration. At best he’s touched a pawn in Verdugo. The other pieces are on the minor league board and fairly irrelevant. Also, for the uninformed writer who suggested ownership is some how going to dictate who they can get or not you simply don’t understand the process. He sets a deal and presents it to ownership, they don’t tell the parameters of his deals. They assume he knows how to do his job and maximize benefit to the club so they wait for his proposals. Apparently, those haven’t happened yet but not because ownership was overseeing his work. Spend some time learning how a baseball operation works.
The ball is in Breslow’s court now and the owners are sitting waiting patiently to see what he can propose to them with respect to improving the team. It’s very likely anything he proposes will be approved by ownership because that’s how they have behaved for 20 years or so.
I stopped reading when you said O’Neill is a below league average outfielder lol he has 2 Gold Gloves in 6 years first off so get a clue please. Secondly he’s dealt with injuries and an outspoken manager who yaps his opinions out in the open. When healthy he hit .286BA .352OBP .560SLG with 26DBL 34HR and a 5.5 WAR in 2021 so there are exactly ZERO outfielders anywhere inside Bostons farm system or on the MLB Club who come close to that…nor did Verdugo…so please…don’t just puke irrelevant inaccurate crap but actually know what you’re talking about or you detract from the overall intelligence of Redsox Nation. That is all…
Meh, hyperbole much. If I forgive everything bad and only look at the positives, I can make even Hannibal into a refined gentleman.
O’Neill is a right-handed batter, which the team needs. There is potential, and our young outfielders’ depth mitigates the risks. This move was justified because the cost was minimal.
baseballguru – Look at the numbers. 2020 was a legit Gold Glove and 2021 was a joke. He finished 11 points below league average. Sorry but modern metrics create false estimates of a players ability. If you knew half as much about baseball as you pretend to know you would understand that numbers don’t lie but politics impact the voting on awards..
You used the pathetic metric of WAR so there is no point in discussing things with someone so ignorant. Arguing that a guy who had one good year should be projected to have his entire career mirror that is moronic. You defy all logic in what you say. He had a ceiling year that he has never come close to matching so we should consider him at this peak going forward. Keep your day job and take some baseball lessons!!! Wow, your comments are ignorant.
If you are related to O’Neill then I can understand your outrageous comments but it you aren’t then you are simply a big mouthed fool
I speak for Red Sox Nation in saying that O’Neill is a below league average player because he can’t stay on the field long enough to produce above league average production. If you knew anything about baseball, look at the current group of outfielders in the Red Sox organization, then consider their age and how many times they have played over 100 games in a season. Teams win with consistency not great players who only play part time. Sale is a perfect example. One the greats but can’t stay on the field. O’Neill is one of the average players who can’t stay on the field. 11 seasons and he’s played 100 games just 4 times – 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2021. That means 7 seasons he didn’t hit the 100 game mark. Rafaela is 22 and his last three seasons were over 100 games, Duran is the oldest Red Sox outfielder at 27 (2 years younger than O’Neill) and he’s played in 100 or more games more times than O’Neill and Abreu who will be 25 in 2024 has done the same.
Go look up Bob Horner and maybe you can get a clue why this guy isn’t a great addition to the team. My Sale analogy should have worked too but you don’t seem like the type that catches on quickly.
You’re the ignorant one if you consider WAR a pathetic metric. It’s used throughout the industry and mentioned in many MLBTR articles. Whether you happen to like it or not is immaterial. Breslow made out like a bandit here, getting the talented O’Neill for two scrap-heap pitchers who will probably never make an impact in the majors. And you’re wrong on the games played. Since you’re counting the minors too, he played 100 in 2018, 2019, and 2022 also. In 2013 he was in the Rookie leagues so he couldn’t get to 100. And no one played 100 in 2020 so you can’t ding him for that one either.
Hammerin – Sure it’s popular but is it accurate? NO. It has so many wrong assumptions built into it that two competing companies created comparable numbers but the hardly ever match. Is that a statistic? No it’s an estimation like guessing heads on the next coin flip.
You want to evaluate a player use real stats. Things that actually happened not things that theoretically could have happened. Ignorance is calling out people that understand the game and the metrics better than you. Can you recite the formula and all the constants and variables used in the estimation? If not, how can you assume it’s correct? Because you were told it is by the folks that sell it? How ignorant is that!!!
Just because an estimator (note it’s not a stat) is popular you must dive into it to figure out what assumptions are being made and how they apply to each individual. They are standardized and normalized so they actually apply to nobody except a theoretical average guy being compared to a real person.
The quality of the players given up were low in this deal but to say Breslow made out like a bandit is to project ONE year of the guys history to the future. What if the future which is ONLY ONE YEAR left on his contract is more like his four below 100 OPS+ seasons? Is it a steal then? Can you guarantee he will perform like in 2021? NO.. So it’s not a steal it’s simply a player acquired that needs to reproduce fantastic numbers he did ONCE. You are banking on his ceiling not his average season. He won a gold glove with a fielding percentage 11 points below the league average!! You don’t see anything wrong with that? These are the casualties of modern metrics. They are not accurate. They are simply bad guesses that can be surpassed by reviewing the real data.
As far as games played goes lets go ahead and embarrass the guy since you want to split hairs:
2013 18 yr old 28 games all minor league
2014 19 yr old 61 games all minor league
2015 20 yr old 114 games all minor league
2016 21 yr old 149 games all minor league
2017 22 yr old 130 games all minor league
2018 23 yr old 125 games 61 games in the MLB
2019 24 yr old 119 games 60 games in the MLB
2020 25 yr old 50 games 50 games in the MLB
2021 26 yr old 138 games 138 games in the MLB
2022 27 yr old 102 games 96 games in the MLB
2023 28 yr old 80 games 72 games in the MLB
SIX SEASONS in the MLB 2 seasons (1 shortened season) with a decent not good number of games and the rest of the time he struggled to play 50% of the games in 2019, 2022 and 2023. This time try to get the point rather than bickering about the why he didn’t play much. Do we care about his rookie ball season? NO. You completely missed the point.
Remember back to your statistics classes and trend his last 6 seasons:
61, 60, 50*, 138, 96 and 72 which totals 477 games out of a possible 870 games. He played in roughly 54% of the available games. That’s 88.8 games is his norm. Heck I’ll be generous and call it 90. We got a guy who is going to cost over $5MM to play in 90 games if it’s a normal year.
Can you comprehend the significance of missing an average of 74 games a year for his first 6 years? And how many games do you want to project off that number? 150? Then you’d be as accurate as WAR!!!! hahaha
The player doesn’t stay on the field. The player has a career OPS+ of 112 thanks to ONE of six seasons being exceptional, one of six seasons slightly above league average and three seasons in the 90s so below league average and one embarrassing season he had a 70. We are talking Kiki Hernandez bad!!
This deal brought in a guy who will block developing players but has the upside potential of a Duvall if he can get hot like Duvall did. He has a floor much lower than Duvall. Or he could end up like Hill who did ok when he pitched but was on the IL a lot so he couldn’t contribute.
Nobody knows which of three will happen but the odds are always better if your estimate is his average not his ceiling.
TF – Fantastic post as always!
How people can support a “statistic” that isn’t consistent between websites is beyond me.
Both FG and BR came up with their own version of WAR for one reason only – MONEY!!!
Baseball statistics should not be monetized, period!
Carl, if you think about it it’s O’Neil for Verdugo, and the 2 pitchers from the Yankees for the 2 pitchers going to the Cardinals.
After a couple of transactions we’re sitting a little better than we were. How can you not like this?
It’s not a home run but hopefully that’s coming in the next couple of days with Yamamoto.
New Gm and same bargain basement pickups. I miss when the Red Sox cared about winning and putting a good team on the field.
So you gave the new GM 6 or 7 weeks. Youre not even going to wait for his first major signing. No wonder why people think the way the do about the Red Sox. If you are in fact a Red Sox fan.
There are a number of TROLLS posing as Sox fans on this site. I always ignore them.
BoSox fans need to wait until the SP’s are signed before any meaningful discussion of this years team.
As for Henry — he delivered four WS titles. Enough said.
We need a lot almost too much and this mess of a team is beyond Breslow to straighten it out.
Sorry friends but this is bottom basement high upside players on cheaper contracts. I was hopeful that Blooms Reign of Terror was over when he was fired. Breslow was not a top hireefor this team and got the job on default. Do not tell me Tyler Owens is going to help this team. He is injured a lot and has not played in more than 100 games in a while. Mark my words Yamamoto is going to go to the Dodgers with Ohtani signing there. You have to be smoking crack if you think Breslow is going to sign Yamamoto. Breslow is Bloom 2.0 and this team needs too much outfield help, a first baseman (Please not named Dalbac) a second baseman, relief help and starting pitchers. I’m not even sure how good Story is. Breslow needed to do more than he did at the winter meetings.
Ok, Tyler Owens is not going to help this team.
Put down the meth bro lol
No he didn’t the off-season is far from over at least wait until 90% of the free agents and trades are done before sayin silly things like this.
Bruin1012 – Can we go into the archives and pull up one of your responses when Bloom arrived and see if this last comment is verbatim?
Get the point? We went down this road and AL has every right to be leary of Breslow. He’s proven nothing so far so every individual has a right to be in different places along the believe in him spectrum. I’m close to AL because I remember complaining about Bloom in December 2019 and it was accurate. You on the other hand, kept giving the give him time speeches and he buried the franchise. So to suggest your thinking is the right thinking is counter intuitive. Your thinking failed last time and if we just trend the data, it’s likely to fail this time too.
Telling people that they must think like you do is repressive. How about letting people write what they think even if you don’t agree with it? If you want to define reasons why they are wrong and make a counter argument that’s fine but dismissing people for not agreeing? Seems very oppressive.
AL said Breslow needed to do more at the winter meetings. Why would that not be a valid opinion? Do you get to set the time frame for everyone to make their evaluation on Breslow like you did Bloom? Why should anyone have to wait until the off-season is over to have an opinion? Why 90% of free agents not 80% or 100%? Who are you to say what he said is silly?
The idea here is to respectfully disagree. Where has all the courtesy in the world gone. AL – I loved what your wrote!!! Like you, I won’t believe in him until he does something to believe in.
Isn’t Casas a decent first baseman not named Dalbac?
I like Breslow’s deals to date. Ready to see how he approaches spending.
Add Yamamoto or Montgomery and Stroman/Imanaga. Add a Lefty to the pen. Use K. Crawford as the #5, Whitlock to pen.
Trade/Sign a SS so Story 2B. Sign Maldonado. Ceddane to minors. Try to use Yorke/Houck/Dalbec/Pivetta/Prospect in a trade package for SP (Burnes & Adames?)
Yamamoto, Burnes, Bello, Sale, Crawford
CF Duran
SS Adames
3B Devers
1B Casas
2B Story
DH Yoshida
LF O’Neil
RF Abreu
C Wong/Maldonado
Wildcard competitive in 2024, but long term flexible still. Burnes/Adames are FA’s after 2024. Brewers wld maximize their trade value if they packaged them together. Sale and O’Neil are also FA’s after 2024. Ready for some youth additions or spending going into 2025.
Mo – Lots of dislikes that most people don’t agree with. Adames instead of Story at SS? Why? Adamas is estimated to cost $13.4MM so to break even on the guy he needs to put up a 120 or better OPS+ and his last two seasons were 95 and 110.
Story is just fine at SS. We need a 3B and a 2B. If Devers stays at 3B the team defense will be ranked at the bottom once again and if they cheat even more than they already have on counting his errors the hitters will still be on base and scoring. The 2B needs to be a short term good defensive player that isn’t too expensive or a top flight 2B. Likewise, the 3B needs to be a top flight defensive 3B who can hit for power. The rest are incidentals. Another catcher to split time with Wong. Hitting depth and relief depth.
The most important item other than moving Devers is acquiring 2 top flight SPs. Without that Sale will need to be counted on and that has been a risk since Cora was hired as manager. Devers and Yoshida can’t both DH so one needs to be traded to bring back something needed.
If taking Adames’ salary will get us Burnes then I love Adames because Burnes is what we need along with Yamamoto. Moving guys like Blaze Jordan, Yorke and others to get Burnes would be great but there will need to be star prospect in the deal. Burnes and Adames are almost identical in that both are the same age, have similar projected salaries and have one year to free agency. Adames’ numbers don’t justify his salary so he can be a one and gone but Burnes needs to be signed to a nice extension.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote but to become a great team Devers must move or be traded and Yoshida needs to be traded if Devers is moved to DH. Without fixing the defense this team is destined for 5th place with the Yankee addition of Soto.
Troll – JP Crawford is signed to a team bargain $10M per thru 2026 and signed it 2 yrs ago. Adames is a $13M SS. Entering a walk yr I’d bet on his production.
Yoshida and Devers DH/defense scenario is less interesting than whether the RH can hit, and that theres only 1 lefty in the pen but the rule 5 trade for Slaten the RH pitcher went down.
Common sense says Breslow is about to make a bunch of moves…2 SP, LH pen arm, starting SS/2B, a bench bat. That assumes Abreu makes the team as RF and Pablo Reyes is infield back up again. If he signs Maldonado there’s also a possible trade of Wong or McGuire.
Mo – It all depends where you want to excel and where you want to be average to have enough money for all. Story is a big bad contract but he’s a good SS that you can’t bench for not hitting unless you are prepared to eat his contract. I don’t think that happens so we don’t need a SS. We need a filler 2B if we believe Mayer or Yorke will become good enough to play in the me majors.
Common sense suggests a good GM will make the needed moves but if the obvious moves of not moving Devers or firing Cora haven’t happened, I question whether Breslow has the experience to take the bull by the horns like DD did and go get guys to fill the holes. I am rooting for Breslow to be a good GM but I’m leary after Bloom AND because he doesn’t seem to feel the urgency of the fan base after Bloom. Part of being a great GM is knowing how to read the room and the room says do something big or get blasted by the BOO BIRDS. Bloom’s lack of urgency has made the fan base concerned when there is a lack of urgency. The fan base needs a positive like trading for Soto or signing Ohtani. The lack of movement is way too reminiscent of Bloom.
Watching the young players from last year it would be a travesty if Rafaela and Duran aren’t in the Opening Day line-up. Anthony is about a year away so the future outfield is set unless the Red Sox use Rafaela’s athleticism to move him to the infield. For me, If he could play 3B and move Devers to DH the team would be so much better off. Devers does rank 3rd among current 3Bs with 129 errors in 7 seasons. The two guys ahead of him are Longoria who has played 16 yrs and is 37 and Donaldson who has played 13 yrs and is 37 while Devers has accomplish his status as 3rd most error prone active 3B in baseball at age 26 after only 7 seasons. It is a travesty that they allow him to touch his baseball glove. He should have enough of a team orientation to step into the DH position to help the pitchers and the team.
Teel is on the way so an experienced Maldanado would be helpful with respect to teaching Wong how to be a good back-up catcher.
We really need to see actions by Breslow that make sense to start believing in him. We got fooled by Bloom and the old saying is “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice….
TF – When Yorke and Mayer are promoted to the majors next year, you think Story will still be with the team in 2025? I don’t, at that point he’ll have 3 years left on his contract which would make the amount of his salary to be eaten more tolerable.
Fever – Nothing Yorke or Mayer have done would suggest you are right that they will be up next year. Yorke is a bit of a flop and Mayer has been disappointing as the 4th pick. I hope they turn out great but nothing they’ve done suggests that it will happen. Anthony on the other hand along with Rafaela and even Abreu had decent success in the minors.
As far as Story goes, eating his money is a really, really bad option. He needs to be traded as soon as he resembles his old self because eating his payroll still goes against the CAP. Bloom screwed the future with his Devers contract but he hurt it severely with his Story contract and his Yoshida contract. Breslow needs to figure out how to clear those three contracts for the betterment of the organization for the next decade.
The longer Breslow sits on his hands with Bloom-like transactions the sooner Red Sox Nation will believe he’s the second coming of Bloom. Bloom was so bad, we need Listerine to get the bad taste out of our mouths!! Breslow needs to make a move that flushes the bad taste out of our mouths. Yamamoto would do that.
Guys like O[Neill aren’t the answer. Bloom never contracted a star player we need because Story was redundant to Bogaerts, Kenley and Martin were closing for a .500 team when there were huge holes elsewhere and even Schwarber and Renfroe didn’t meet the needs we had at the time.
O’Neill is cheaper than Verdugo and I believe is a better player than Verdugo but if he plays his average number of games (88) he’s really not worth $5MM and his playing time comes from one of the youngsters which seems counter productive to me.,
Don’t need Maldanado keep Wong/McGuire Teel on the way. Maldonado can’t hit a joint. Story will be fine, Casas will be a HOF when he’s done. I definitely want to see Bobby D actually get a shot at utility INF. We need 2 SPs, a 2B that’s it…steal Soto in FA in 2024 offseason and then trade Yoshida. Sale’s contract runs out, with Pivetta’s too and you get more SPs we’re set positional wise for years to come in both the INF and OF. O’Neill will rock Fenway Park
Guru – Mostly see it the same. A yr of Maldonado for pitchers sake and pass on Soto. Teel in 2025 and the better of McGuire/Wong. Fine with Bobby D as the Utl, he’s RH. Use 2024 to see O’Neil/Yoshida in LF, determine if he’s just a DH in 2025. Devers has to man 3B.
Boston had an issue in that we knew they were going to trade Verdugo and that happened. It was obvious Cora didn’t want him so we knew he was going to be shipped out it was no Brainer that was happening.
The addition of O’Neil makes sense. One of the biggest issues Boston has is lack of right handed power. O’Neil can potentially rectify this. He is playing for his next contract so just a guess but we will see a good version of O’Neil. The park sets up well for him and he’s a classic change of scenery guy. He really is a left fielder but can probably play all the outfield positions. I look at him more as a 4th outfielder who should play a lot against lefties probably spelling Duran/Yoshida in left or center and playing against lefties for Abreu in right field. I think the guy who losing playing time in the outfield is Refsnyder.
The idea that as long as Cora is manager they are moving Devers off of third is fantasy land. As long as Cora is the manager, this is obviously an ownership decision, then Devers will be at third base. Perhaps if the Red Sox underperform this season then Cora will be removed as manager but it’s not happening this year so everyone might as well get over it.
I do think that Breslow is going to add a couple of starters to the mix but I doubt it’s going to be YY there is just too much competition for him. I do think with Ohtani signing with the Dodgers instead of Toronto it slightly enhances the Red Sox chances but still the big favorite is the Mets. I think they have a better chance of signing Monty but that probably going to cost 7/200 in this crazy market and I don’t believe he’s worth that. It’s more likely they sign Shota or Stroman to a lesser deal and work out a trade for another starter. I have said before I would really like to see them sign Woodruff to a two year deal take a chance that he comes back later this year and is good to go in 2025 I think that’s a good low cost risk.
I wouldn’t be to bent out of shape if Breslow came out and just said that this free agent market is crazy and we are just not going to participate in this market at the high end and save our bullets for next years free agent market. I’d be ok with that but I wish someone just come and say that. At this point, without clarification, there is going to be a lot of disappointed fans come spring training. Let’s not lose sight of the two really positive things Breslow has done he’s hired a very good and well respected pitching coach and a know head of org pitching guy it’s clear he is prioritizing pitching development and that’s something that hasn’t really been done in Boston. I think it’s time for a little patience and maybe skipping this insane free agent at least the top guys.
“O’Neil can potentially rectify this.”
But he’s not going to. He’s going to spend 2/3rds of the season on the DL. Baseball and over-strength conditioning has rarely worked. And this guy is coming off of two declining season and a plethora of injuries. Unless drastic changes to his workout regiment (which I doubt he’ll do), he will continue to strain different muscle groups over and over.
Bruin1012 – What’s a bigger issue?
1 – Not having a right handed power hitter other than Dalbec
2 – Injuries
Sale’s injuries have hurt us recently. In fact, injuries have significantly impacted every season back to 2019. So does picking up an injury prone hitter make any more sense than Bloom picking up injury prone pitchers?
Being a Breslow apologist this early in the game makes perfect sense for you. You did the same with Bloom. Look how that turned out!!! I guess your consistency in being wrong helps others to know what not to think!!!
Which is more important? Firing Cora or hiring a new pitching coach? This should be a no brainer…. firing Cora. Why? Because the roster and coaching staff selections should be a joint effort by the Manager and Breslow. If Cora is a lame duck as he should be, then rip the bandaid off and let’s start fixing the team chemistry, raise the baseball acumen in the dugout and bring some integrity to the rostered personnel.
No passes for Breslow. He needs to prove his worth. He’s been moving change between his pockets so far. He needs to pull out his wallet and buy something big so we don’t have to live on hope like we have for four years.
What do you not understand about ownership decision. Ownership told Cora he was coming back before Breslow was hired. Breslow took the job knowing Cora was going to be the manager. I think it’s possible next year that Cora will be let go if Boston disappoints again but it’s not and never was happening this year. As long as Cora is here Devers will be the third baseman as long as he is on this roster. I don’t disagree with you about Cora I’m not a big fan but ownership seems to like him or he has something on John Henryi don’t know I just know he’s going to be the manager this year and it’s out of Breslows hands.
Bruin1012 – You do realize that just because you write something there is no obligation by the reader to believe you have any clue about what you are writing?
Everything you just wrote is BS. Not one fact presented. DId you sit in the meeting with Cora and ownership when they told him he would be back? Nope. Did you witness any conversation that said Devers will play while Cora is manager? NOPE!!!
See your opinions reflect what you think happened. None of that really matters. What really matters is when Cora will be fired so the org structure can perform properly. What really matters is when Devers is moved to DH or traded. Nobody knows the dates of those events so maybe you should stop pretending you do.
If my suggestion of firing Cora can start a movement to make that happen, GREAT. If it doesn’t then as a fan I am simply voicing what I want for the betterment of the team. If my suggesting Devers be moved to DH or traded starts a movement that makes that happen, GREAT. If it doesn’t, then at least I tried because I want Boston to be successful. I would think everyone on this website that’s part of Red Sox Nation would want the same thing.
Fans have the right to rant about things they believe to be bad choices. We will never all agree but that doesn’t mean you should stop providing your opinion just because others don’t want to hear it.
Devers and Cora are my pet peeves. I would think the data on the two of them would be enough for everyone to agree but it’s not necessary for it to be true. We just need someone in the front office to do the right thing and fix the problems, two of which are Devers and Cora.
Well Troll your right about one thing I wasn’t in the meeting with ownership when they told Cora he’s coming back.
It’s not my OPINION that he’s coming back it’s the opinion of every major news agency you should probably google is Alex Cora coming back that’s why I know he’s coming back at least to start the year. If they were going to let him go it would have already happened so that’s why I say it’s fantasy. If you want to start a grass roots fire Alex Cora great hope your successful but I am convinced that’s happening. Which brings me to the next point I’m also convinced that as long as Cora is there Devers is playing third. This is why I’m not screaming to make Devers the DH since I’m convinced he’s not being moved off of third at least not yet.
I’m not disagreeing with you,in principal. I’m not sure why Cora has such sway over the Red Sox ownership. I pretty sure that’s why other more experienced GM’s such as Click or Ng didn’t even interview. They would want full control and they weren’t getting that with Cora still being here. Perhaps Breslow could go the passive aggressive route and sign Chapman forcing the inferior Devers defensively off of third but doubt that happens. I’m also quite sure I read somewhere that Cora was having a bigger say on whom was brought in I’m not sure of that but I thought I read that somewhere. I really hope that’s not true but it wouldn’t surprise me. I guess in summation I hear what you’re saying but it’s not happening this year at least not with this ownership. Perhaps if they suddenly sold the team you would get your wish.
“Not Happening”
Can you two get a room, already?
GreenMonsta – What would possess you to say something that stupid? A need for attention? With no news going on right now, why is it so bad to have a lengthy discussion with somebody about the future of the Red Sox? You do realize that’s why these sites exist?
Only a whiny simpleton would make such a comment or give a thumbs up to such a comment. You guys are real morons. WOW. Get a brain!!! Then try using it.
Bruin1012 – I get that you believe Cora is powerful but why? He’s not a bright man. He’s not a smart manager. He is a devious man. He is a convicted man. He wasn’t a good ball player. He’s an even worse manager.
What is the root of Cora’s power? Do you think he has threatened the owners into doing what they’ve done that has benefited him? Do you think the owners are afraid of him?. They have a billion dollar entity and you are suggesting one of the dumbest guys in the organization is one of the most powerful. I just find that so hard to believe.
It’s obvious to any one with a modest amount of baseball knowledge that Devers shouldn’t play 3B for the betterment of the team especially since it costs nothing to move him to DH. It’s an obvious move that has existed since Devers arrived. The team would have been better off with JD in LF than Devers at 3B. so why is this obvious solution being over looked? There has to be a reason. It doesn’t have to be a good one but there has to be a reason. I’d like to know since it’s brought down the winning during the last 7 years and I want to understand why we are willing to sacrifice wins for the benefit of one player. I don’t think that’s an unfair question to ask ownership or Breslow. Why do the obviously wrong thing?
We can guess all we want but nobody knows except those making the decision. That person should explain it to all the ball players in the locker room so they can understand why the favoritism exists in a team sport. I really miss the good old days when the clubhouse would have fixed this problem quickly,not 7 years or more longer than they should have..
Sox site is just crickets ,paint dries faster.
Whatever happened to needing pitching,pitching and pitching.