The Red Sox have yet to make any waves on the free agent market. Boston’s offseason spending thus far consists of a $1MM signing of depth arm Cooper Criswell. Boston has been linked to a number of high-profile players in recent weeks, many of whom remain available. The Sox were at least on the periphery of the Yoshinobu Yamamoto bidding in its final few days. With free agency’s top pitcher headed to Los Angeles, first-year chief baseball officer Craig Breslow and his staff are looking elsewhere.
The Red Sox have been linked to Jordan Montgomery and, to a lesser extent, defending NL Cy Young winner Blake Snell at points this offseason. While there’s no indication they’re out of the market for either player, Alex Speier of the Boston Globe wrote over the weekend they appeared more engaged with the next tier of free agents.
Speier indicates the Sox remain involved on Shota Imanaga and Lucas Giolito on the rotation front while showing interest in outfielder Teoscar Hernández — all of whom have previously been reported as targets. Of that group, Imanaga figures to have the highest price tag. The #2 pitcher moving from Japan this offseason, he’s coming off a 2.80 ERA with an NPB-leading 174 strikeouts over 148 innings.
Imanaga doesn’t have the ceiling that Yamamoto possesses, but he’s generally viewed as a likely mid-rotation starter. As with Yamamoto, Imanaga is available via the posting system. The Yokohama BayStars formally posted him on November 27. That opened a 45-day window for the southpaw to sign with a major league club. He’ll land with an MLB team by January 11 at the latest. Speier reports that Imanaga will travel to the U.S. shortly after the New Year to meet with interested teams. The Giants, Cubs and Yankees are among the others linked to Imanaga within the past month.
While Imanaga figures to secure four or five guaranteed years, a reunion with James Paxton would be a much shorter commitment. WEEI’s Rob Bradford recently reported the Sox were interested in bringing the southpaw back. Chris Cotillo of MassLive wrote this evening that the team has maintained contact with Paxton throughout the offseason, although there’s no indication a deal is imminent.
Paxton, 35, pitched to a 4.50 ERA over 19 starts last season. He struck out almost a quarter of opponents while inducing swinging strikes on 12.7% of his offerings. Paxton is still capable of missing a decent number of bats behind a fastball that sits in the mid-90s, but he hasn’t been able to shoulder many innings. He made only six appearances between 2020-22, missing most of that stretch to Tommy John surgery and a pair of lat strains. Paxton had a pair of injured list stints last season, landing on the shelf early with a hamstring strain before knee inflammation ended his year in early September.
Listen! You can almost hear Craig Spendlow snoring!
You think he underspent on cooper criswell?…to earn a nickname like spend low ..you must actually spend
Touché
Question for Sox (and other fans): Would you consider trading Jansen and give the closer job to Martin and/or Houck? A last place team has to take chances and if there was a decent return, the money saved that apparently is important to ownership (assuming returning assets were cheaper for 24) could be added to the 24 tax base to sign Montgomery. With his wife already working in Boston, I think it’s posturing that they’ve let it out they’re not going to outspend others for him. While Houck has been injured and hasn’t shown the ability to consistently start, his stuff has always had “closer” written all over it.
Jansen, at his age and with one year of control left, wouldn’t get them more than a AA-ball semi-prospect. And I don’t see Martin as a closer. Houck either.
That’s wishful thinking. I’d trade Jansen IF there were a corresponding move, but every indication is that ownership is not willing to spend for premium free agents. If anything, the Red Sox are merely being used as leverage to drive up the price tag for other teams.
dewey – I would consider it only because I don’t view Jansen as an elite reliever, and I don’t think he can be relied upon to stay healthy especially at his age. He pitched only 14 innings over the final 3 months of the season, and got lit up for a 4.50 ERA. I think Martin and Houck sharing the closer role would be fine.
Insane – Houck actually HAS been the closer. In that role he has a 1.69 ERA, a .481 OPS Against, and has 9 Saves. I think if he’s healthy it makes sense to give him another shot should the closer role be vacant.
With Martin it would be a question of whether he can physically handle closing 2 or 3 days in a row, unless he shares the role with someone like Houck.
Sam – How about if Jansen is traded for a solid LHR, which is much needed right now? Either way, they need one.
Dewey – I would trade Jansen regardless. Hes.not part of the future of this team, and, would be a great addition to a win now club.
If you don’t find a nice deal before spring, ABSOLUTELY trade him late summer to just before the deadline.
Move houck/whitlock to the pen and have a great 7-8-9 combo.
I mentioned the same thing a month ago. For a team like the Sox it didn’t and doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me to have him be the 2nd highest paid pitcher on the team. I also wished they would have got in on Matsui. Signing him and trading Jansen worked for this season and the future.
I don’t see him getting any big return but if the goal is to save money, does it really matter? Having more money also doesn’t guarantee getting your target. Money talks but you also need to convince them why they should sign with a last place team that obviously won’t go above and beyond.
Sign Josh hader trade Kelly Jansen
Celtic, see my other comment. The team needs starters and trading Jansen makes sense. Just not in my view to sign a more expensive closer.
Hader is a game changer. He can pitch multiple innings. Jansen cannot. Their bullpen would be among the best in baseball.He would probably add only $4 million to payroll versus Jansen. You could probably get either a prospect or a second baseman for Jansen.
Trade for a starter from your surplus of prospect outfielders and infielders and maybe Houck or Whitlock.
Sign D’Oscar Hernandez
Celtic – Agree on Hader, but the Sox need to secure a couple SP before they decide whether or not they can afford Hader as he would be a luxury, not a necessity.
Fever – a move like Hader isn’t a one year deal, needs to be probably more like 4-5. That puts him locking down the role when this team is a contender again 18 months from now.
Bring in the difference makers when you can, either FA or as trade-and-extend. Then they’re there when you need them. That’s the only way sorting out the bloom-mess really works quickly, you need differencemakers on the roster to help recruit elite guys to buy in and want to come back to Boston
GASox – Absolutely Hader would require a contract similar to Diaz, in fact the staff here have him at 6 years $110M.
Do you know the largest free agent contract the Sox have given to a pitcher since 2018 is Jansen’s $32M. I just cannot see them give over $100M for a reliever, especially one that Cora will probably use for 45 innings a year.
I say spend the money on starting pitchers, then if the bullpen becomes a problem they can always trade for a closer mid-season. There is ALWAYS a surplus of relief pitchers who are having a good season.
That’s another reason why I would prefer signing free agent starting pitchers instead of trading for them, save the trade bait prospects for midseason.
$110million for 6years equals $18.3 million per year compared $16 million for Jansen . You get a far superior closer for an additional $2.3 million in payroll. Plus you have the added benefit of whatever you get for Jansen.
If you can’t trade Jansen now, he could be part of the best bullpen in baseball until an opportunity to trade him comes at mid season. Let Houck or Whitlockpitch 4 or 5 innings as a starter and turn it over to that bullpen.
If you are able to trade Jansen, sign Montgomery. He may be the new Nathan Evoldi.
Fever – chicken or the egg my friend…
You don’t want to spend for the sake of spending, and, you don’t want to pay ace-money for a #3/4 production.
Whether you trade him, or you let him play the string, Jansen is done after ’24. So the question is, what impact pitcher will you allocate the money from Hader to instead, who actually wants to come to Boston, this offseaon, and where you couldn’t afford that SP if you did grab Hader? (Then you can debate savings from moving Jansen separately)
And, would having Hader on the roster improve your recruitment odds for top flight SP?
You get it.People need to think out of the box. Hader is best pitcher left on the market.
Celtic – Basically every closer in MLB history not named Mariano has been erratic throughout their career. Comparing one year left on Jansen with a six year commitment on Hader is not the same thing no matter how close their AAV compares, the additional risk with Hader would be quite large.
With that said, I’d gamble on Hader if it were up to me and the team budget was high enough to accommodate it. But if forced to choose between paying Hader and paying top money for a stud SP, I’d go with the stud SP.
GASox – Well first let’s get one thing straight, the Red Sox can EASILY afford both Hader and a stud SP. I see people here talkin’ about making moves that would help save money …. they don’t need to worry about money, they were $50M under the threshold this year and they are even more under the 2024 threshold right now.
But if their double secret master plan, of which none of us know about, somehow won’t allow both Hader and a stud SP like Snell …. I say go with the stud SP. Because Hader would be a luxury, the bullpen (if properly managed by Cora) is NOT a problem. In fact it’s a strength with a healthy Whitlock/Houck/Schreiber/Jansen/Bernardino/Martin/Winck and maybe Pivetta too.
The problem is starting pitching, it’s the biggest need, and Hader doesn’t help solve that problem.
How could Chaim do this
Fletcher – I completely agree! The damage Bloom has done will last several years, unfortunately.
I think it’s becoming clearer that bloom was not the guy actually making the calls. There’s still time, but indications are not great so far.
The damage Bloom did to your brain seems to be permanent unfortunately. Still praying for you to get better tho
Fletch – Not to worry my friend, while Bloom absolutely did cause head trauma throughout Red Sox Nation with all his horrendous decisions and bizarre behavior that left millions repeatedly banging their head against a wall, I just shook my head because I didn’t want to deal with repairing any of my walls.
I sincerely hope you spend the rest of your twilight years not being so miserable and unlikeable
Full Throttle!
Dirty Water – That was an awesome Charlies Angels movie!
Spendlow.
Oh, how clever. It even rhymes.
Icon—I wish I could take credit for that, but someone on here posted that about a week ago…I adopted it.
Yeah, it isn’t funny.
Starting to believe Henry is taking his profits and aiming to sell the team. The urgency to win is just not there. If this is what “full throttle” looks like, I guess they left out the part saying we’re in 1st gear.
Unless you mean divest fsg entirely im not so sure, because the red sox are the crown jewel with all due respect to liverpool..they cant just sell the sox..hed have to cash out or sell the whole thing id guess
If the Red Sox are the crown jewel why are they content being a fringe wild card team? Past 5 years have been a steady decline. You’d think if the focus was on the Red Sox at FSG, the commitment to winning would follow. I don’t get that vibe watching this team target guys like Seth Lugo AND lose out to KC lol.
Your guess is as good as mine..according to forbes the sox are worth 4.5 billion liverpool is comparable..but at the end of the day the sox are the prize in the fsg portfolio. Its beyond me why they treat it so poorly..that said, the value continues to rise imagine where it would be with proper care im sure there are some cohen types in new england with just as deep pockets
What the Sox (Henry to be specific) need is a good 68-94 season to slap them in the face. Fans won’t tolerate that.
After the 68-94 they would give Cora a 5 year extension. In order to heal the wound they have to get completely rid of the infection.
The actual players and quality of play have very little to do with a team valuation.
NewYork – FSG is mostly focused on the Corners, it will have a massive impact on the Red Sox once it’s completed. Until then, the goal is basically to just be one of the dozen playoff teams each year.
And yes, FSG will continue to siphon off revenue to fund the Corners.
I don’t care what the potential payoff might be, I’m not taking a back seat to F-ing soccer. Especially not for an extended period of time.
I would think both teams are similar in value. Don’t know what percentage fsg owns.
on a kids 6v ride on toy. if they don’t sign a major starter, I’ll seriously consider dropping my season tickets that I’ve had for 21 years now.
they really seem to be missing the big picture. viewership has to be down, because I refuse to spend $30 a month for NESN since I’ve cut out half, and I’m sure others feel the same way.
if they make the product watchable again, who knows, but for now, I’m so over this team and their leadership
He’s been doing this for a few years now.
Just remember the infamous quote from Henry “baseball players are expensive”, it’s all you need to know about his philosophy. Sox will be dumpster divers again.
I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
Knuckles you are not wrong so don’t doubt yourself.
Knuckles – You are right about his philosophy, he cares more about money than winning.
But he is smart enough to know it takes money to make money.
I don’t know what your idea of dumpster diving is, but I am quite confident he will spend big for at least one SP.
No one worth spending big on. I guess it depends on your definition of big. What I don’t want is an overpay for Midgomery.
and – I consider at least $100M big, and I’m not gonna give up on Snell. That’s the guy I want right now.
You can offer all the money in the world but if Beantown isn’t attractive for a myriad of reasons sorry Charlie you are out of luck.
Boston is attractive for a myriad of reasons. Yes you need to have a thick skin which is something many can’t handle, but the flip side to that is if you endear yourself to this fanbase and bring success, you will be revered as a god for the rest of your time. Outside of the fanbase, Boston is a beautiful and diverse city with a lot to offer. The taxes suck but they suck even worse in New York and Los Angeles too, so I don’t see how that could factor into a major FA’s decision not to sign here unless the competition is in Texas or Florida.
Dirty – Don’t discount the weather. Playing in cold, rainy Boston is not as appealing as dry, sunny SoCal or locations that have a beautiful retractable roof.
I can see the weather being an argument to tolerate living in a place like California. But weather isn’t a draw to New York or Philly and they don’t seem to have the same issues with attracting free agents lately. More likely, players and agents can sense which front offices/owners are serious and which are not. Unfortunately Henry and FSG no longer are.
Dirty – If contract offers are similar, many players would choose the nicer weather team. East Coast teams don’t have it as bad as North Central teams like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit and Minnesota.
But you’re right about the Red Sox front office. Breslow’s inexperience combined with John Henry’s reputation for treating players so poorly makes the Red Sox a less appealing team to do business with.
Breslow is highly intelligent, but those types quite often lack the social skills needed to work deals with other teams. Hopefully Craig is better at that than Bloom was.
Again, I understand the weather being a draw to certain markets. What I am saying is, New York and Philly are the two most similar markets to Boston. They have the same weather and comparably terrible tax regimes, so there is some other reason why those three teams are able to more successfully swim in the deep end of the free agent pool while the Red Sox have seemingly lost their ability to. My theory is that the Mets, Yankees, and Phillies have serious people running the show in those organizations whereas the Red Sox no longer do.
Dirty – It’s not ability, it’s lack of willingness.
The Red Sox have the third-highest revenue in MLB, but they have the 13th-highest payroll.
That pretty much says it all, no?
If you’re implying the Red Sox consistently offer more money to star players who turn them down, I would strongly disagree.
Sox could have had Xander for $160M, but they refused to make the offer.
Sox could have had Mookie for the same amount he got from the Dodgers, but they refused to make the offer. According to Mookie they never even formally offered him $300M.
If you’re patient, they will start spending very big again in about a decade. Until then, around the CBT threshold is about the best we can hope for.
I don’t think you’re wrong. Willingness is part of it. But that lack of willingness also feeds into why they are also losing the ability. Henry is in his fourth straight year of generally trying to be a tightwad. Players and agents see that, and I firmly believe it leads to their offers being taken less seriously, and that’s why we can’t even beat out Kansas City for a Seth Lugo, for example.
And now the posturing has already shifted from Jordan Montgomery being allegedly one of our top targets early in the offseason to now everyone saying he’s probably out of our price range. The mismanagement of the Mookie and Xander situations, the Story contract, letting Nate and JD walk for nothing without trying to either trade or extend them, failing to get under the CBT despite nickel and diming the roster every step of the way – there is just no credibility left and that’s why they have definitively lost cache in the free agent market.
dirty – I agree with you, the Sox have been viewed as clownish the past few years because of their ridiculous lowball offers and their nickel-and-dime attempts.
But if they submit formal offers in writing, agents are required to pass along those offers to the player. They certainly did way overpay Story, Yoshida and Jansen not to mention others such as Kike, Richards, Robles, etc.
And it will always baffle me how they’re willing to just throw money at stiffs like Story, Richards, Pablo Sandoval, Rusney Castillo, etc. but then when it comes time to re-sign a face of the franchise they decide it’s time to try and save a few bucks. The incompetence is absolutely mind blowing.
Dirty – Yeah it was an absolutely horrific lack of planning by Henry and Sox management. Bloom kept misreading the market, and worst of all the one thing an employer should never, ever do …. not value your most valuable employees.
The lowball offer to Xander, just a short time after they gave Story $140M, was as insulting as you can get.
Fever- it wasn’t exactly new though. If we look back on how BOS has operated, it’s been a repeating pattern.
Bring in a FA who has worse production and peripherals than an existing, usually homegrown player. Homegrown guy expects to be paid commensurate with services and abilities, a reasonable approach. Redsox not only don’t offer equal, but offer LESS. Player ultimately leaves after discussions breakdown, sometimes trade after realizong extension is a lost cause, sometimes FA.
We can go on and on, pick your pairing. You like Story/Bogey? No? OK, how about JDM/Mookie? There’s a string of these guys it happened to.
You’re spot on, it goes way further back than the Mookie and Xander debacles. In fact I’d argue it goes all the way back to Nomar when Henry bought the team in ’02, so let’s not forget Nomar and the revolving door of shortstops succeeding him until Bogey came up.. They also did it to Pedro, trying to replace him with Matt Clement, Lester with Rick Porcello, JD with Yoshida, Eovaldi with Kluber…
At this pont after watching cherington , dombrowski, bloom and now breslow ..the problem here is clearly not any of these gms..its with ownerships lack of commitment
Ben Dave are doing excellent work.
I certainly agree with you about Ben Cherington, who has been very aggressive in stocking the Pirates farm system at every possible juncture. The strategy is a logical antidote to Nutting’s stinginess.
Kinda nutty that Imanaga isn’t in much of a hurry to even meet with interested teams. Even if he wisely was waiting for the dust to settle on Yamamoto, he could have been doing his prep work before the end of the year. Now the FA and trade market will be held up again. MLB needs to establish a different system for foreign player postings. Limited, early window, signing cap with no deferrment schemes, and maybe even a draft instead of free agency. You either put in pro time in MLB or you’re in the draft, and the draft has a lottery, coupled to payroll. Cheap, tanking teams don’t automatically get the top slots.
Why should he, or any FA, be in a hurry?
posting window
Dark – He doesn’t have the same posting window as Yamamoto, he’s got until January 11th. Plenty of time to enjoy the holidays at home with family before getting into the serious negotiating and visits.
I’m suggesting it’s “nutty” to not have done your homework by now, not that he should have made a commitment. He knows who is interested, he knows who has contacted him after the Yamamoto signing. He knows his market and who he should visit. Nothing has changed in his list of options. One could even argue that even the ‘winner’ of Yamamoto isn’t now out of imanaga’s market.
There’s another possibility: perhaps it’s not Imanaga waiting. It may be that there aren’t teams willing to commit to him. Yes, he’s a lefty, but he throws about 91MPH and gave up a lot of HRs in the NPB. That’s not a good sign for a potential MLB pitcher.
He still had more KOs than Yamamoto. I think I read that his pitch mix could be the reason for so many HRs, and that might be an easy fix.
Not sure I want Imanaga if he can only throw 91.
Do you want a thrower, or an actual pitcher?
suit – It;s like the chicken or the egg.
Which do you value more, velocity or strikeouts?
There’s advantages to a pitcher not having to rely on his velo.
With that said, I’m still holding out hope for Snell.
Second choice would be trade for Burnes.
I’m sure you remember the consolation prize for Dice K. It was another lefty who threw 90-91 and won a strike out title in Japan. Mr Kei Igawa. Imanaga has Igawa written all over him. Hope both the Mets and Yanks both steer clear.
Chris – Look up Uehara’s and Okajima’s and Nomo’s velocity and results, then get back to us.
So we are comparing a starter turned reliever and a situational lefty who were both in their 30’s to a projected 3-4 guy in a rotation? A 2024 rotation at that. Things ha e changed so much since either pitched. Uehara had a nasty split and Okajima the same with the change. Their results were good yes but baseball has changed in that time and since neither one of those guys were true starters except for Uehara first season. I don’t see the comparison. Unless you see him as a once thru the order guy. Think about that and get back
Chris – Your argument is these Japanese pitchers cannot be effective in MLB with low velocity. Whether they are a starting pitcher or a reliever is irrelevant to the discussion, and BTW you ignored my third example of Nomo.
No my arguement is Imanaga reminds me a lot of Kei Igawa who was another Japanese who threw 90 won strikeout crowns in Japan and did nothing in the states. I said nothing about needing velocity to be successful. If you read what I said earlier you’d know that. Btw Nomo had at the time what was considered an above average fastball. Your talking 20-25 years ago 92-95 was a premium fastball then. And none of those guys including with the exception of Nomo was a starter. You failed to mention that. If you want Imanaga you can have him.
Why limit FA options even more just because some fans are impatient? The season is three months away, there’s no rush.
His posting window expires in a little over two weeks, there absolutely is a rush .
I’m sure his agents have been doing the home work. Isn’t that what they are for?
Dirty,
My point was that ckdex indicated a desire to shorten posted players’ negotiation window even further, and I don’t understand why.
There’s already a Dec. 15 deadline to post players and a 45-day window to reach an agreement.
Who benefits from a shorter window? Owners because players would feel more pressured to get a deal done? I’m not in favor of that. Fans because players will sign faster? Too bad.
Snell, Montgomery, Bellinger, Chapman, etc. haven’t signed, but are they getting similar grief? Imanaga can’t be holding up all of their deals.
The market for most professional athletes, perhaps none more so than baseball, is predicated almost entirely on comps. So yes, one player absolutely can and likely is holding up the market for several others.
Snell, Montgomery, Giolito, and Imanaga are the top remaining “tier 2” arms. The bottom of their market was set for them when Sonny Gray signed for 3/$75 M and Eduardo Rodriguez got 4/$80, Given all 4 of these guys want to top those deals, the other three are going to wait and see how the market for Imanaga shakes out given that he has to make a decision by the 11th. That’s basic game theory. Snell and Montgomery are probably both going to top Imanaga’s deal so there’s no reason not to wait and see what he’s able to get before they start negotiating for real. Giolito since he’s coming off a down year is probably more likely to end up somewhere in the middle range of price points, which also gives him every reason to wait because his market value can only go up from here. The higher Imanaga’s signing price goes, the higher Giolito’s goes via the price anchoring effect, but if Imanaga’s price doesn’t go any higher than expected he can always fall back to the baseline set by Rodriguez, which one of the teams who lost out on him will almost certainly be willing to offer.
And yes, it is crazy that Imanaga’s people haven’t even spoken with the interested teams yet. That’s fine if he wants to wait until after the new year to start talking numbers but to have not even taken initial meetings to start doing due diligence yet is going to cause all that stuff to be rushed. To each their own but I can’t relate to wanting to approach the biggest decision of my life that way.
I would think Imanaga and his reps have spoken with all the interested teams already, even if only by teleconference, but waiting until after the holidays for in-person meetings seems totally reasonable.
Dirty – I want absolutely nothing to do with Giolito. If he signs with the Sox, I’ll be all over it like KD on Devers.
Agreed. If we are truly “full throttle” I would like to see them bring in Montgomery, Stroman, and Hader. Wouldn’t hate a Paxton reunion either since he was mostly effective.
A starting rotation of Sale, Montgomery, Bello, Stroman, and Crawford would be pretty nice.
If Paxton stays in the mix I figure you probably get close to a full season combined out of him and Sale, but you’ve got two solid guys who can eat up innings with Montgomery and Stroman, tantalizing upside with Bello, and Crawford who proved shockingly competent last year.
If they deployed both Whitlock and Houck in multi-inning, high leverage relief ace type of roles, Jansen can be the traditional 9th inning closer when needed, and Hader would add both the lefty the ‘pen needs and another guy who can go multiple innings if needed. The bullpen is actually not too bad right now, but this configuration would be a bullpen that can carry you through a playoff series, if not the World Series. Not that I’m saying this makes them actual WS contenders, I don’t think that, but I think it definitely pushes them into a wild card spot. And all you have to do is get to October and crazy things can happen, as we all know.
But we aren’t going “full throttle” on anything other than being an afterthought so I don’t know why I wasted all of my time thinking about or writing all that.
Dirty – You think Stroman is a good match for Boston? Hafta disagree on that one, it would be far worse than David Price.
I’m fine with Monty at the right price, and Hader will never happen because they ain’t spending over $100M on a reliever that Cora will probably use for 40 innings a season.
Absolutely. Has a lot of experience pitching in the AL East and is the most durable starter on the market which is the biggest thing our rotation needs.
Steven Wright next?
There’s a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot….
olmtiant – Did you hear the Dodgers are looking to sign Hader so he can be the setup man for Brasier.
NOT MY GUY!!! But if anyone was going to offer Brasier 3-75 it would be the Dodgers!!!
Pretty hard to get a read on the Red Sox plan.
Hand out awful contracts to Sale Story Devers. Pass on good pitching and sign old reclamation projects no one else really wants.
It seems to be “don’t spend any money and ignore the fact that the entire fan base has had enough of this crap.”
Bold of you to assume there is a plan.
Don – It’s only Chapter One, gotta wait until the rest of the book is written.
When you ask for a coke and they give you a pepsi
More like you ask for a Coke and they give you sewer water!
Love that dirty water…boston you’re my home
I think the Red Sox are committed to trying to rebuild via draft picks, good luck, burning off their current mega contracts like Sale and hoping they piece together a winning club while preparing for the probability of being a 4th or 5th place club for at least one more season.
if that’s the case, they should be transparent about it and not alienate the fan base
Agreed 100% Boston. Why initiate false hope that will lead to more negative reaction than last year which ended with the team being forced to overpay for Devers? It’s why I still think there has to be a plan that involves spending. Otherwise why replace Bloom and more importantly, why did Breslow take the job? Was a Yale educated microbiology major in his 40s never getting another shot to lead a club?
Only 30 jobs in the country. Not a time to be picky. I doubt Boston would currently be the top choice if he could just choose which team he wanted to be POBO of.
Bostonsp – They should not make comments like ‘full throttle’ if that is not their intention! The front office could have just said they are trying to strengthen their pitching staff.
JC: Agreed saying “full throttle” was a mistake that will probably lead to many disappointed fans. Also, Breslow may not have agreed to go “full throttle”. That is so vague. I think he probably made more specific agreements with ownership.
“they should be transparent about it and not alienate the fan base”
————————–
I don’t think they will be transparent any time soon.
suit – I honestly don’t blame them for not being transparent in their planning.
They don’t want to tip off agents, other teams, etc.
And they don’t want to hurt ticket sales and other revenue.
In fact I’d rather they not say anything than lie to us like Bloom did.
What Red Sox draft pick has any potential as a starting major league pitcher?
Baseball – The Red Sox philosophy under Bloom has been to draft up the middle position players with the draft, and to sign pitchers as international free agents. The signing bonuses are smaller in the IFA, and it spreads the risk over a larger quantity of pitchers. I am not saying this is good or bad, but it has simply been what they have done.
SoxProspects.com – Red Sox Prospect Rankings
(1) Roman Anthony CF/RF
(2) Marcelo Mayer SS
(3) Kyle Teel C
(4) Ceddanne Rafaela CF/SS
(5) Miguel Bleis CF
(6) Nick Yorke 2B
(7) Luis Perales RHP
(8) Wilyer Abreu OF
(9) Wilkelman Gonzalez RHP
(10) Yoelin Cespedes SS
(11) Richard Fitts RHP
(12) Nazzan Zanetello SS/CF
(13) Chase Meidroth 2B/3B
(14) Allan Castro OF
(15) Johanfran Garcia C
(16) Nathan Hickey C
(17) Eddinson Paulino SS/IF
(18) Mikey Romer SS/2B
(19) Blaze Jordan Blaze Jordan 1B/3B
(20) Yordanny Monegro RHP
As you can see Soxprospect has only 4 pitchers ranked in their top 20, so it is absolutely no surprise that the Red Sox have developed very little pitching as they do not draft pitching. The Red Sox have rebuilt their farm system, so they may soon start to trade more prospects to acquire pitchers like Fitts at #11.
baseballfan1945 – Houck, Bello, Crawford already have experience as a MLB pitcher. Houck was our best pitcher one year and Bello another year. Crawford needs more experience but they are not top of the rotation guys and that’s because Boston lacks a quality minor league training program for pitchers and has lacked that for years. Breslow can help with that and it appears he’s focused on that prior to getting quality players.
Bloom hurt the farm system by using his dumpster dives to reduce value in the farm system. The DD farm hands are rising up and joining the MLB team leaving next to nothing in the minors considering how high Bloom drafted.
His first round picks in 2020 and 2021 got lots of publicity but haven’t performed to their estimated value. Mayer lags way behind two HS SSs drafted in 2019 (Witt and Abrams) and had an injury that is being used to rationalize why he has been so bad. Look at the two guys I listed and see they lost 2020 to COVID and still developed a lot faster than Mayer. He’s a good player but has not played like a 4th pick in the draft player.
The problem with looking at a prsopect listing done by site like SoxProspects.com is that it reflects front office thinking not true value. Look at the numbers and Anthony has done much better than Mayer as has Rafaela, Abreu and Teel. Bleis had one good year and fell off just like Yorke and Jordan. The biased site shoved all of Blooms guys to the top despite them not doing anything outstanding except Anthony. The Dombrowski guys got shoved down so Bloom could pretend he helped the farm system when in fact he didn’t help it he hurt it.
There is nobody other than Anthony that has much of a chance of being as good as Casas, Houck or Duran. They are all pretenders ranked high by Bloom’s marketing guys. Go to ROTOWIRE where they rank players based on performance not politics. Anthony is ranked 11th overall, Rafaela is ranked 40th, Teel is 64th, Abreu is 76th, Mayer is 78th, Bonaci is 99th, W Gonzalez is 104 then Yorke is at 128.
Boston’s front office sees the world differently than guys who evaluate players on performance. Guys like Mayer don’t belong at the top of our list. Abreu is better than Bleis and Yorke. It’s a joke what SoxProspects puts out. You might as well make it a front office marketing brochure. No facts just fluff.
Take a good hard look down ANY list of Boston prospects and tell me where we have made such a big improvement? Casas, Houck, Bello, Duran are all DD graduates and without them in the farm system it is now much weaker than it was when Bloom took over. Will anyone other than Anthony or Teel be at Casas, Duran or Bello’s stature in a couple of years? NOPE. The farm system got weaker and the rating systems don’t show it because they still give Mayer and Yorke the benefit of the doubt as first round picks just like they did Jeter Downs. We all know how that worked out.
Boston’s minor league pitching is a reflection of the coaching staffs that have manned the minor league program for a couple of decades. New faces are needed and since Breslow isn’t adding good players he seems to be adding good pitching coaches for the farm system.
We’ve had 3 break out prospects since Bogaerts did it a decade ago. Mookie, Bogey and Devers. Now we have new potential break-outs in Casas, Duran, Rafaela, Houck, Bello and Crawford. That’s best set of young prospects in nearly a decade and nearly all of them were acquired by the guy who actually build up the farm system and didn’t tear it down like so many accused him of because he used farm assets to get key players to win a ring. Yep, DD boosted the farm system WHILE USING IT TO ALSO get key players to help us win a ring. Bloom on the other hand, did the same to the farm system that he did to the MLB roster, he hurt it severely.
Can we get a Burnes using guys like Mayer and Yorke? Hard to say but it seems very unlikely despite how much Red Sox fans have been told how good they are. They aren’t. Guys like Duran, Rafaela and Abreu have more value. That’s why it will be critical to package the redundant Yoshida with Mayer and others to get a top flight SP and possibly a SS who will be a free agent in a year. Breslow needs to sign them to 4 to 6 year contracts to ensure solid pitching and fielding in the near future. Devers can not be allowed to stay at 3B if this team wants to compete. He must DH for them to win.
So once again your answer is Bello, Houck and Crawford and hopefully more once Breslow upgrades the coaching in the minors.
Shouldn’t have signed Story Devers if they wanted to rebuild. Can they only get a lottery pick 1 year in a row? Hard to get bad enough to get good odds. The revenue from convincing the fan base they are trying to contend is more valuable than a high draft pick. I just think they are a middle of the pack front office.
Ownership. Front office is a broad term that includes many who are just following orders.
Dewey – You are right the front office has many components. The most key component with respect to acquisitions is the board that funds the transactions requested by the GM.
That board has either refused a lot of transactions OR that board has not received many big item transactions since DD was fired. I know you believe ownership has said no but since they approved the Devers deal I am more inclined to believe a request for money for Bogey, Eovaldi and JD would have been approved but they never happened because Bloom had a philosophy for winning that didn’t work but he stuck to his guns and refused to offer players big or long contracts. That’s not on ownership, that’s on Bloom and now Breslow. What we don’t know is whether Breslow went to bat for a Yamamoto deal close to $300MM and got out bid after it was approved and submitted to Yamamoto’s people or whether Breslow did the numbers and said Yamamoto could only provide $250MM in value so we didn’t submit anything above his determined break point. We’ll never know which way things went but since we’ve had no other instances where we have been linked to players that went elsewhere for big bucks (I don’t believe we entered a bid for Ohtani) it’s hard to say if the board is saying no or Breslow’s valuation isn’t high enough to compete with the other bids.
Since Breslow isn’t winning bids, I sure wish he would focus on fixing the bad contracts we already have. If he can deal Story, Devers and/or Yoshida that would provide needed payroll space to fight for the better free agents available.
If he can deal the pretenders in the minors and buy ONE quality SP this team can compete for the playoffs with Devers at DH. Firing Cora would simply be icing on the cake!!
Dewey, if you have insights into whether the board is getting big requests for money or not because they aren’t being submitted by the GM now or in the past I would be interested in that information. I always assumed Bloom didn’t want to vary from his own personal philosophy so he didn’t go after big or long contracts but if he did and got turned down many times then ownership is to blame for our current mess.
Some theories for what is going in no particular order:
1. John Henry sees the Rays spending a lot less money than the Red Sox and still winning the division and making the playoffs. So, he is reducing spending and he even hired Bloom from the Rays.
2. Breslow may be similar to Bloom and establishes a value for a player and won’t go over it.
3. The baseball ops department is still pretty much the same as it was under Bloom and they are acting the same. There may be a lot of dysfunction and Breslow may need to clean house.
4. John Henry prefers to avoid absurdly long and expensive contracts that turn into wasted money and roster spaces for years. I think John Henry learned that lesson with the Chris Sale contract. I am happy they are staying away from those types of contracts because they usually don’t work out. However, this fee!s like they are neither in win-now mode or tanking mode. I would prefer they choose one of those two and not something in between.
Yeah, the LAD had a smart system, imo, with overpaying to shorten the life of the contracts. It’s worth the extra money short-term to not be saddled long-term with something bad.
But, the Sox aren’t alone. Yankees were doing the same and Cashman operated in a very similar manner: evaluate statistically to establish “value” and not cross that line. It’s why the Yankees are in their current predicament.
@ all in that suit
5. Breslow is new and is taking the time necessary to evaluate his staff, and his talent before making large, long term commitments.
stymeedone: I hope you are correct!
suit – With all due respect …
1) If John Henry truly wants to emulate the Rays, he needs to improve the Red Sox scouting and player development. it’s not that the Rays are better at choosing players, they are better at developing and improving them. To put it bluntly, the Sox coaching staff has sucked. I do think Bailey is an improvement, and am glad Febles is gone.
2) As successful as the Rays have been on the field, they have the 3rd-lowest revenue in MLB and less than half the revenue Boston generates. The constant turnover and departure of star players is a big reason for that. Does John Henry want to lose all that revenue too?
3) If that’s true about Breslow, that’s a bad approach. If the team has a glaring need and there’s only one or two options available, you overpay a bit. You don’t go without. One could argue that every recent Red Sox star player has been an overpay, from Pedro to Manny to Damon to JD to Eovaldi … but all were well worth it in the long run, both on the field and off.
4) If John Henry learned the lesson of no long contracts after the Sale debacle, why did he approve the contracts to Story, Devers and Yoshida? All he cares about is total team payroll, period. If the Sox could field a team of 8 star rookie players, Henry would approve giving out a Verlander or Scherzer type contract like the Mets did.
Fever – The Devers, Story and Yoshida contracts are all far worse than the Sale deal. At the time of the deals we knew Devers couldn’t field, was over weight and would NOT last past 32 and we knew we had Bogey at $20MM and he wasnted $25 to $30MM so we got a far lesser player for $23.3MM and we knew from all scouting reports that Yoshida was strictly a DH just like Devers so he was a redundant cost of $18MM a year for 6 years!!! Incredibly stupid signings by Bloom. The Sale signing was for an elite pitcher and yes DD had a year of observing Cora impacting Sale but could he have predicted that Cora would create a TJ situation and that the front office would double the recovery time? I don’t think he should have seen that in his crystal ball. The Sale deal made sense when it was done but the Devers, Story and Yoshida signing didn’t make sense at the time of the signing. Sure hindsight suggests the Sale deal didn’t work out but you didn’t need hindsight to know the Devers, Story and Yoshida deals aren’t going to work out. That’s just pure stupidity by Bloom, especially the Devers deal.
The history of Henry and the ownership group was to avoid the Devers type deals. Mookie would have been a good choice. Papi would have been a good choice for that type of deal but no when they finally break down and give someone a long deal it’s a one-dimensional over-rated cry baby who refuses to admit he can’t field.
Boston fell victim to Henry’s stupidity in wanting Mookie gone and firing DD. This team might have several more Division Titles if Cora had been fired, DD had been kept and Mookie had been extended for a mere $9MM a year!!
Isn’t that what they hired Bloom four years ago to do?
Do you feel he was successful?
No, not in the slightest. But my concern is with winning and with retaining guys who ought to be kept around, such as idk maybe franchise icons like Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts.
But if your concern is prospect rankings the farm system has definitely risen quite a bit under his watch, So if the plan is to be intentionally bad while building up the farm, and success is being measured at least in the interim by the perceived strength of the farm system, why fire him then if they aren’t planning on overhauling the strategy? He hasn’t been in the job for long enough to see any of his draft picks hit the bigs, so if they are continuing to endorse the underlying strategy why suddenly decide he’s no longer the guy to implement it before we even know if any of his prospects are good or not?
Trillion – Just to be clear.
Sale costs $25.6MM vs the CAP and if healthy will earn it in 2o24.
Devers costs $29.153MM vs the CAP ($3.5MM more than Sale) and dropped off significantly in 2023 and has 10 years at that price!!! OUCH!!.
Story costs $23.3MM vs the CAP and has hit worse than Sale has pitched for $2.3MM less than Sale! That’s a Bloom mega contract gone bad!!
Yoshida costs $18MM vs the CAP and is league average and a terrible fielder.. Since this deal is over half a decade it’s another Bloom mega deal gone bad!!
The ONLY truly MEGA contract is Devers at $300MM. Sale’s is not even 1/10 of that contract so his deal is NOT significant since it’s over after 2024 where as Devers hurts the team for a decade, Story hurts the team for four more years and Yoshida hurts the team for FIVE more years.
Breslow is not taking actions to fix any of the three albatross contracts. Heck, he doesn’t have the balls to move Devers to DH or trade Yoshida who is redundant to Devers.
Fifth place is INEVITABLE with Devers at 3B and Cora as the Manager. Not just one year but into perpetuity!!
The Bloom damage was significant. He removed the foundation of the organization when he threw away Mookie and Price and then toppled the structure when he gave away Bogey, JD and Eovaldi. This is what tanking looks like and it has a long term effect. Boston is in the toughest division and unlike Orioles or Blue Jays doesn’t not have a great core of young players ready to play NOW. They also don’t have the willingness to spend money like the Yankees and they should beat TB but it doesn’t happen because Kennedy is an elite Manager and Cora is the bottom of the ladder.
Bloom gave up Mookie, Price, JD, Bogey and Nate from the 2018 WS Champs roster plus Benny, Vazquez and Moreland who all played complimentary roles to the studs on the team. The only thing left is an over=paid DH playing 3B. That’s it!!! The other talent isn’t on the level of the players given up by Bloom.
This team is burnt to the ground and has no hope of rising like a Phoenix from the ashes because the infrastructure is so incredibly messed up. Owners who fire winning GMs right after a World Series win are idiots. Owners who employ the most corrupt manager in the business are idiots. Owners who couldn’t recognize what they had in DD are idiots and are subject to bad decisions at GM going forward.
If the Red Sox were a ship it would be the Titanic as it’s preparing to be swallowed up by the ocean. Everything has gone wrong and can’t be reversed. The manager isn’t being blamed despite his countless mistakes. The lone star player isn’t being asked to do everything possible to fix the situation. The ship has rolled and is on the way down and Red Sox Nation gets to keep watching the action in slow motion while ownership and their new front office are clueless. They are simply rubber necking the accident and not reaching out to help.
Troll. I consistent post in my view because most of what you blame Bloom for is why he was hired. You believe he was given the freedom to trade Bogie, JDM and Nate at the 22 deadline and chose not to? You think it was his decision alone to sign Yoshida (who I think will have a GREAT 24 at the plate) or Story? Henry made his money arbitraging and has brought that philosophy (of looking at computer stats) to get undervalued players. It worked twenty years ago when fewer teams viewed players as paper assets like in a Strat-O-Matic game but with mostly everyone now doing it, you again have to develop your own players to get that edge. It’s where the Sox have failed (in developing starters). Your comments on Cora and ownership though was spot on.
Dewey – I’m sorry but all-stars are a limited commodity. Boston started with the following all-stars when Bloom took over: Sale, Price, Mookie, Bogey, JD, Benny and Nate. They also had a rising Devers who finally had a good full season in 2019. Devers is the only one left and not because Henry and ownership intervened. Bloom NEVER sought out all-stars because they weren’t part of his philosophy which he sold the owners on. He was wrong. The owners were duped but they made slightly more money while being duped so they didn’t really care.
Developing pitchers has not been a strength of the Red Sox and I accredit that to the loyalty that is shown to minor league managers and their selected coaching staffs. It’s great that a minor league coach hires his cronies but it doesn’t mean they are good at what they do. The guys like Cora are well connected thanks to the presence of key Latin players in baseball. Cora baby sat for Kiki Hernandez so he gets job offers that he’s not qualified for. The minor league managers, especially the clown at AA who is so well respected, lied about Devers fielding capability to get him to the majors before he was ready. Those same managers didn’t hire quality pitching coaches so all the good draft picks by Boston never developed into good MLB pitchers. You have to be off the chart good like a Clemens to survive the Boston minor league pitching coaches successfully.
If Breslow can replace all pitching coaches down to the ROK level then he will add value to the organization. The nepotism in the Red Sox organization has lasted years and cost them pitching for decades. There is a good reason the hitters have developed into MLB stars but the pitchers haven’t. The draft choices have made sense for the most part but the development of those players has sucked.
You hit on the single biggest problem facing the Boston Red Sox organization from a developmental perspective!!
@Trollfree
When you look at returns on the trades from Mookie onwards, you shake your head. Appreciate a few were allowed to go via free agency too, but of all those, choosing Devers as the “best” to retain is baffling.
PS – have to disagree with the Titanic analogy, which crashed because they trying to be the quickest crossing across the Atlantic in that type of boat. The result was speeding through ice packs in heavy fog. The second result was all the bloody awful films afterwards.
I agree the Sox are currently encountering ice packs in the fog, but they’re doing it very slowly…
@ @TF and A’sFan.
Love the analogy, but Mets and Dodgers are the two ships racing through iceburgs.
Boston is The Hindenburg… once a pride and joy of the world that ended by slowly crashing and burning. Red Sox fans left crying, “Oh the humanity!”
DBH – OK so the sinking ship was the point not the speed it raced through ice but your points are well taken.
Whether it’s a Dirigible balloon falling out of the sky or the tip of an ocean liner disappearing under the water, the Red Sox are in dire straights right now.
Immediate and significant fixes need to happen quickly to try and reverse the trend instigated by Bloom.
I keep saying simple steps make a huge difference. FIRE CORA is a simple step that adds 5 to 10 wins. Move Devers to DH is a simple step that adds 5 to 20 wins.
Signing two top end SPs will add wins if the first two items are exercised. If not, then Cora will take away wins from the addition of the great pitchers and Devers will cost the new studs multiple wins by misplaying his 50 plus plays per year.
Plugging the biggest holes should be the mandate to Breslow and the two biggest holes are Cora and Devers.
The team is a borderline playoff team with Cora gone and Devers at DH. Rafaela can play 3B for Devers and the pitching staff will get beat up without 2 new SPs at the top of the rotation but the overall success will still go up with Cora gone and Devers at DH.
Yes, don’t bother telling me it won’t happen. I’m not talking about what WILL BE DONE, I am pointing out what SHOULD BE DONE. Until Breslow grows a pair, the team will stay a .500 team.
The disconnect between ownership’s public comments and their actions on the market (not a disconnect that stands to benefit them in any meaningful way—they’d be better off telling the fans a rebuild is occurring than making a lot of promises only to not deliver) makes me wonder exactly what’s going on behind the scenes. Is management making big outlays and watching helplessly as players sign elsewhere? Are they aggressively scouring the trade market but failing to bring anything together? Or do they really believe they already possess a winning product?
As much as being a Red Sox fan these days often feels like being lied to, I struggle to see why Breslow or Henry would stand to gain by gaslighting their fans with the “full throttle” narrative. Angry, disappointed fans leads to lower attendance, and Henry’s failure to deliver on promises doesn’t seem like it would benefit him if he’s hoping to sell the team. Just really makes me scratch my head. Cheap teams like Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Milwaukee tend to be honest with fans about their budgetary constraints. Meanwhile, people like Preller, Cohen, and even Dipoto are obviously TRYING to make big things happen, they’re just not very talented at doing it successfully.
Sox party line feels like the worst of both worlds—saying we’re going for broke, then doing nothing, all without saving meaningful money in the process. Makes me think there’s just a lot of garden-variety incompetence in their front office.
Wonder who they go after
Look at all the top free agents … and then forget about them. When James Paxton is your top free agent that you are linked to, it tells you all you need to know.
I am sad to say that ever since the Betts trade, I have not watched the Sox much. Not sure what ownership is thinking. Just sell the team if you aren’t 100% committed.
Betts trade worked out great for them.
YourDreamGM – What an absurd comment.
Boston lost it’s franchise generational player and the Dodgers got the needed boost during a shrotened season to win their first ring in over 40 years.
Boston got three schmucks for a top 10 player who should have been extended if owners would have let DD extend him.
Boston went in a tail spin that continues four year later.
Can you see why your bizarre comment makes no sense? Was it supposed to be funny or ironic or sarcastic?
The Betts deal was a stab to the heart for Red Sox Nation. It’s no different than not keeping Ted Williams or Yaz. It’s shameful. I’ts embarrassing. It was a self inflicted fatal wound.
Boston wasn’t winning a championship that year. Verdugo was productive. I believe I liked or even loved his trade return. Dumped a large chunk of Price contract. Got the what number 4 overall pick or so. Betts wanted more than they wanted to pay. He was out of there. So get all that or have him for 2 months and he leaves for nothing. Trade was the smart move. Seems he wanted to leave.
The problem with your narrative is Betts didn’t want to stay, didn’t want to sign an extension. Would you have been happier if they let him walk for a fourth round draft pick?
My problem w it was the return. At the time from afar dodgers system seemed depleted so Boston took a couple guys at the top, downs and verdugo, who both had bust wrote all over them and then dumped salary. Face it – u run verdugo out to a corner OF spot – you settled
Red Sox scouting should have been better than that. Dodgers had many blooming stars that ended up or will end up way better than either of these players and Red Sox scouting missed out on all those guys !
I agree with you in regards to the return Bloom got for the Betts trade. The Dodgers system was ranked 3rd. in MLB midseason 2019 and again in March of 2020. Bloom and his scouting department were able to pick from a stacked farm system and they failed! This is what Bloom was brought in to do! Verdugo was a given in that trade. Bloom turned the rest into a disaster. To the point that the Dodgers had to make another trade to appease him, even though they had Maeda, Gosselin, Gray, and May. May was probably off the table there. They go get Grateral and he ended up not wanting him either because of medical issues. Not coming away with a pitcher in that trade was absolutely irresponsible!
Then there’s the catcher situation. At the time, the Dodgers had plenty in their farm system as well. Smith, Ruiz, Cartaya, and Wong. Bloom grabs the worst one!
Lastly! Taking Jeter Downs! I don’t understand what the infatuation was to get a 2B prospect. Its probably the cheapest position to fill next to the bench. Obviously, Bloom got fleeced by his former boss and from the get go his eye for talent was lacking. Just because you come from the Tampa organization, doesn’t mean you’re automatically good at running a front office.
YourDreamGM – Verdugo was hyped as a future all-star and was league average. He had great first halves and sucked in the second half bringing him back to league average.
They shoved a major potion of Price’s contract in a very uncomfortable place. That was a financial disaster adding Price to the deep list of Retained Payroll players who provided no value to the team but were being paid for by the team.
They selected Mayer after tanking. Personally, I’ll take Mookie for $9MM more bucks than Mayer for two decades.
The Red Sox paid JBJ $11MM in 2020 because Bloom did not non-tender him. If DD had been there and non-tendered JBJ he would have had the additional $9MM Mookie was asking for in his long term contract. 12 years $420MM.
Betts was traded in early February prior to COVID. There was ABSOLUTELY NO MARKET FOR HIM at that time. Had they confirmed he would not resign for $420MM and 12 years during the summer of 2020 THEN they could have dealt him for young SPs as SD, ATL and LAD were all struggling for supremacy in the NL. SO MUCH MORE WOULD HAVE COME IN JULY IF MOOKIE REFUSED THE $420MM deal.
There is a lot of evidence that Mookie was forced out and didn’t want to leave but took issue with the way ownership treated black players. It all goes back to the Price/Eckersley situation that ownership publicly commented on. That situation triggered the hard feelings between Mookie and Ownership but DD wanted to win so he kept trying to get funding for Mookie so they fired him.
With Mookie and DD in Boston throughout the 2020 season Sale gets his TJ surgery 9 months earlier, the team doesn’t win in 2020 but comes back in 2021 and has a shot at winning the division again and the payroll would have been reset by staying below the CAP in 2020. The 2022 and 2023 seasons would have been far better also with DD not Bloom.
History will show that the Price/Eckersley fallout was the trigger than ended the reign of DD and the Red Sox in 2019.
Stymeedone – Read the previous comment. What you say isn’t accurate. The budget was not an issue so money was not why Mookie left. The falling out between Mookie and ownership over their public comments about the Price and Eckersley conflict created the hard feelings on both sides.
Dombrowski just wanted to win so he lobbied to sign Mookie to 12 years $420MM as Mookie’s representative stated his demands to avoid free agency. DD got fired for lobbying for Mookie. That’s why it was so sudden and so illogical after he won 3 straight Division Titles and a Ring.
You have over-simplified what really happened. If DD could have smoothed over the hard feelings Boston might have won another division and/or ring by now but ownership dug in their heels and dismissed him for trying.
Big whiffa – Great commentary. Completely right. They had so much more to offer us in July than in February. Heck, the bidding war would have been fun to watch since LAD, ATL and SD were all seeking NL supremacy.
Think about the SPs we needed back then and look at who was available on the three rosters. We would have got quality pitching not an often injured OF who had little upside, a middle infielder dumped by Cincy and repurposed by Friedman thanks to 12 successful games hitting after 198 that sucked and a 5th or 6th catcher on their depth chart.
The trade that will live in infamy!!! Worst one in 100 years..
Redsox8 – It all makes sense if you consider the fact that Bloom was Friedman’s protege or Freidman was Bloom’s mentor. Did the mentor screw over the student? You bet.
Troll: I pretty much always agree with your opinions . The Price / Eck thing are you speculating that or did you read / hear something. I thought the whole thing was over a comment on ERod Rehab start ( I believe he said yuck). That got Price all fired up. I think there was something about JBJ But I don’t remember the specifics. Any how I always gave Price the benefit that he would be what they thought he would be when DD got him. After that episode I thought he was being a b\#%. The Mookie trade was an absolute disaster. If that really set the stage wtf .
@dreamGM at first I thought you were being sarcastic saying this, but then I read on and you actually believe this? Lost reality or a fantastic troll job.
Most people don’t know much about baseball. It’s your right to believe that 2 months of Mookie on a awful team was worth more than 4 years 2 months of a well above average to good outfielder, a top 100 prospect, a huge chunk of a negative contract. But you are wrong. Now if 2020 was a full season with fan attendance then the trade is a lot different.
BosRed – It’s a total troll job. Did you pick up how he credits the Mookie trade for Mayer getting drafted?
That’s the equivalent of saying “I quit my job, lost my house, have no income, but now I get free food with SNAP so it worked out great”.
YourDreamGM – Sorry but you knowledge of baseball appears very limited by your comment.
Trade evaluations aren’t done like you suggest.
We got
Verdugo = A league average outfield. Something that could have been picked up in the market place or promoted from our minors. Did adding a league average player boost the Boston MLB Roster for his low cost years? NO because the opportunity cost was higher than his performance.
Wong – a projected career back-up at the MLB level. Does that add value to the Boston Roster? Nope. Not in 2020 and not now. He is easily replaced for someone who could produce more at a lower cost. He’s a wasted roster spot much like Verdugo. Breslow fix the Verdugo situation and seems to be trying to fix the Wong situation too.
.
Downs – The sham of the deal. He had 12 games at AA at the end of 2019 versus two of the worst pitching staffs in the AA league he got promoted to by Freidman and that led to him hitting .333 for 12 games. That was about 80 points higher than everything he did in the 198 games before that in the minors!!
Freidman puts a call into the rating services hyping the guy due to a 12 game hot streak and uses phrases like he’s got great exit velocity and his launch angle is excellent and the guys goes from around #200 to #44 on the MLB prospect list. He did absolutely nothing to deserve it so when Bloom took him he found out why Cincy dumped him on Freidman!!!
These three guys ADD ZERO VALUE to the Red Sox Roster because each was replaceable by a cheaper more productive player so the roster spot was not maximized.
Mookie on the other hand gave LAD TWO HUGE BENEFITS:
1 – His 2020 season was better than the three players career stats based on replacement value.
2 – The Dodgers got the inside track on signing the 2nd best player in baseball at the time so the benefit got extended significantly when it could have been value for Boston.
Those two things FAR OUTWEIGH any value perceived in the players Boston got. This was a joke deal and the fact that they made Bloom eat half of Price’s contract made it a complete farce. Bloom was too stupid to understand the ramifications of a buy down and what it does to your available money under the CAP. He also must have forgotten that $41MM of dead money already existed on the Red Sox books so he further buried himself by doing the deal.
Colossal stupidity by Bloom.
I still watch the same amount of games per year ( ~140?) but that may be coming to an end. As you say, ownership’s ethos is befuddling. Everything seems to be a half-measure. Which is bizarre. Not sure why you’d want to spend $200 million a year to NOT make the playoffs and diminish brand equity. In for a penny, in for a pound, right? The Sox are the only team in any sport (since 1977) that I have consistently been a fan of, other than my college. Always thought it was ‘forever.’ But I’m at the age where I have less and less patience and I’m not going to invest that much time in a product that won’t make me happy the majority of the time.
I honestly believe Red Sox ownership bit off more than they could chew and screwed up the European soccer take over so bad that they are still financially reeling. They also made a big ticket purchase of the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Since both of those they got out of European soccer after the massive disastrous move they tried to shake it up. They just sold their AAA Worcester Red Sox team and stadium.
This is not the same ownership group. They are trying to bail on the Red Sox. I really believe they fired Bloom because he botched the Rangers deal for Sale. The Rangers would have taken on Sale and his full contract in 2022 and gave them a couple of middling prospects. Bloom passed.
If they were lacking $ they wouldn’t have given out the awful Story Devers contracts. Or splurged on Turner Jansen.
Definitely should have dumped sale if that trade was really available.
YourDreamGM – Sale is a minor problem. Devers and Cora are major problems. At the end of the season, Sale walks away and hopes to find a real manager and pitching coaches who can get him back on track and probably has a 2025 like his pre-Cora years.
I agree trading NOT DUMPING Sale would have been good for both sides. Sale would be pitching for Mike Maddux and his manager would be Boche so he would be in heaven and Boston would have $25.6MM more in 2023 to squander on risks like O’Neill.
That’s an adorable fantasy,
Sounds about right with Bloom, not that there weren’t other reasons to warrant it…. Little talent back for Mookie, signing guys like Kluber, team performance the last couple years (year 3 and 4 for him).
The main return in the Mookie trade was the Dodgers taking on $48M of David Price’s contract.
Such was important to a corporate owner given when the deal was done, the uncertainty over COVID. No one then knew how long it would last which is why I believe Mookie signed in LA without becoming a free agent. The Dodgers saw a long term future and Henry saw short term uncertainties.
All – You really missed the point about the Mookie deal. The Price pay down is financial suicide. Boston already had $41MM of dead money on the books so adding $16MM more showed how little Bloom understood finances.
If the CAP is $203MM like it was and you don’t want to exceed the CAP then $41MM and $16MM reduces your potential spending down to $146MM from $203MM. DD told owners to pound sand on the $41MM retained payroll he inherited because it wasn’t on him and he was there to build a winner which he did ignoring the past mistakes. He came in at $186MM in 2018 before the $41MM was tacked on top of that amount. Ownership, while making over $300MM a year was told to reduce their profits by DD and they agreed. Then, when they hired Bloom he didn’t have the balls to tell ownership what DD did so he saw his spending target as the money he spends plus the carryover dead money. That’s on him for not having the balls to say I’m not taking responsibility for your past mistakes to the owners. That meant that the $228MM payroll Bloom inherited needed to be reduced by $28MM. The buy down was incredibly short-sighted because it subtracted $16MM under the CAP dollars for 3 years and gave BOSTON nothing for it. LAD got to enjoy Price’s contributions at half price. If Bloom wanted a buy down the Red Sox should have kept Price and asked LAD to pay for half his salary for 3 years as compensation for having first access to Mookie as a long-term signee. That way Boston got Price’s ability at half price along with the useless minor leaguers they sent over and LAD simply spent money to get the 2nd best player in baseball. Bloom was an idiot to do the buy down and give up Price’s contribution. If Boston had Price at $16MM for 3 years then they might have been able to trade him. Bloom was an idiot.
There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING smart about the Mookie deal. Bloom got pantsed by his mentor. It will live in infamy as the worst deal in 100 years.
There is no new information here.. It’s actually a little behind since the new rumor is that they are looking at trading their RP depth.
Source?
Beyond the Monster
They didnt own the woosox..that was larry lucchino and not part of fsg
Imanaga and Giolito hopefully, or maybe a trade for a RH pitcher in place of Giolito.
Firms in most industries go though cycles.
Despite 92 wins in the 2021 regular season, the Red Sox have a losing cumulative record in regular-season play over the past four seasons.
The Red Sox may have entered a new era … or not.
Exactly,
And then…there’ll be another one.
Can’t help but feel like they’re lining up a trade Only explanation for their lack of presence in the market so far
I’ve been saying they’re lining up a trade for 3 years now with Bloom and nothing happened. Hard to know for sure
A reunion with James Paxton would be short indeed. Half a season maybe?
It’s amazing how quickly and often the Red Sox have moved the goalposts this off-season. At one point during the season they were considered favorites for Ohtani. They said they were gonna be ultra aggressive this offseason, no price would be too high. When Ohtani hit the market they were in. Then they quickly pivoted and said they’re out on Ohtani because they’re focused on starting pitching (I guess they forgot Ohtani is a pitcher.) and they were all in on their real target – Yamamoto. That came and went and they predictably lost out, so then it was Jordan Montgomery and Blake Snell. Now the goalposts have moved again to Giolito, Imanaga, and a reunion with James Paxton? Talk about pulling the rug out from underneath Sox Nation. I only hope that in turn they give John Henry and company the finger and stay home all next season. Disgraceful.
“No price tag too high” is a dumb way to operate. So, I am happy they pivoted from that if that’s what happened. Agreed that misleading the fan base is bad.
Redsox ownership needs to sell the team. They’re not even trying to win and they’re cheap AF!They’re the 3rd grossing team in the league but spend like Tampa Bay. This is just pathetic.
Sox won in 2018,but imo that title is stained due to the Cora cheating aallegations.
It was just too much of a coincidence that Cora was on the Astros and they won by cheating, then Cora goes to the Redsox and he wins again?
It just looks bad, even if they won legitimately.
So ownership needa to start acting like they’re trying to win because we know the mot.
Write off 2017, 2018, and 2020. What do we have left to play for?
MLB’s investigation of the 2018 Red Sox went on for months and uncovered no evidence of cheating. They admitted this in their report when they said they have a “factual dispute”, “largely have no direct evidence” and “no written record, recording or other contemporaneous evidence of the underlying events”. If there was any evidence, the facts would not be in dispute. The conclusion of cheating “on at least some occasions” was clearly based on speculation as MLB’s investigation failed to document a single occasion of cheating. This conclusion was very unfair to the Red Sox and Red Sox fans.
Did you forget the Apple watch episode?
The Apple watch incident was in 2017. My post was about the 2018 Red Sox.
All – There is evidence Boston cheated. That’s irrefutable. The fact that it was retracted is like saying a gangster kills a local person and all the people who watched the murder wouldn’t tesitify. Does that really mean the murder didn’t happen or does it mean the killer wasn’t convicted but the murder happened?
Boston and New York cheated in 2017 but it was nothing compared to what Houston did. Likewise, in 2018 Boston cheated thanks to Cora and they simply did not get convicted and frankly even if they had the slap on the wrist would have been insignificant because the Commissioner is ball-less. Yes, he has no balls. He’s an ownership stooge.
I saw a source that said we are out on Montgomery because he wanted too much money. If that’s the case, I hope we are out on Snell too, but not sure where Breslow is getting the pitching we need
“No price tag too high” is a dumb way to operate. So, I am happy they pivoted from that of that’s what happened. Agreed that misleading the fan base is bad.
All – If you made $300MM like the Red Sox do, I think it’s VERY VERY FAIR to say “no price tag is too high” because the additional $30MM a year that you might pay simply reduces profits to $270MM. So maybe the son of the owners won’t get a yacht that year!!
Most educated guys like Breslow and even Bloom learn in school about maximization of money. The learn about cost/benefit analysis and how each dollar spent needs to return more than a dollar.
Breslow can take that information to build a roadmap to fixing the damage made by Bloom.
Catcher – NOBODY has a ratio of 1 but we all hope Teel will be the future answer. Building up the depth of catchers in hopes of finding someone to go with Teel down the road is smart but should have been prioritized so greatly.
Firstbase = Casas needs to be the answer until he proves he isn’t. No other focus needs to be spent at 1B for now.
Secondbase – This a position in flux. Since Pedroia we have had no good 2Bs. The market has some above league average 2Bs available but we are not spending money on them right now so is the plan for Story to move back to 2B for the rest of his over[priced contract?
Shortstop – We had a great one in Bogey and now we have Story as a place holder for Mayer who is not living up to his billing. Do we do what DD did to Moncada and package him to some team that has a SP1 we need? I say YES and I suggest we couple him with other farm players to get both Burnes and Adamas and we immediately extend them both. The HOPE for a SS will be over and that’s a good thing because the player looks like he could be a bust like Moncada. In other words, he doesn’t live up to his rating.
Thirdbase – We need a complete revamp. Devers must go to DH or be traded and a new 3B needs to be acquired. The new 3B needs to be able to field and hit. Personally, I want to trade Devers straight up for Arenado. Even if Devers is much younger, the deal is a win-win because STL has another 3B playing outfield than can return to 3B, his natural position.
OUTFIELD – Left field is Anthony when he’s ready and Abreu and O’Neill can fill the gap. Duran is set in center field. Rafaela is set in right field. No other focus needs to be devoted to this area.
STARTING PITCHING – Two SPs and as proposed above, one should be Burnes. If the other is a FA like Monty or another traded for player it doesn’t really matter as long as they are comparable to Burnes in ability. Bello, Houck, Crawford can be given a chance to prove themselves under less pressure as the 3 to 5 pitchers. Whitlock and Pivetta can handle the key early game relief while Martin, Winckowski and two lefty relievers can set-up Jansen for the 9th inning.
Remember, every one of these players need to be evaluated for the cost/benefit ratios. Those not cutting it need to be upgraded and those not starting need to be monitored for possibilities of rising to starter status as they progress.
We need a GM who reviews the 9 hitting positions for cost/benefit and the 13 pitchers for cost/benefit.
Henry has never been the kind of owner to spend frivolously. At the end of 2002 he tried to get Billy Beane to be his GM because he had a system that was efficient in dropping the cost per win. He has always wanted to compete, win, and do so with a smaller budget than the opposition. He had big contracts like Manny Ramirez but a lot of that money was deferred. He is not a win at any cost kind of owner. He is not going to outspend the Dodgers or the Mets. He’s the kind of owner to look for someone who peripherals doesn’t match his results and try to get him for cheap. He treats players like stocks, buy low sell high. While doing this he has to keep a fanbase happy who thinks he spends like New York or LA. He will remain competitive he needs to keep butts in the seats but he won’t go top dollar.
kingbum – I think you accurately summarized Henry but I think he has evolved a bit more than you give him credit for. He initially was a hard liner on home town discounts. The Devers deal shows that hard line has softened unfortunately. He lost a generational player in Mookie but kept a bum like Devers who can’t field. I understand they want to maintain a relationship with the Dominican Academy but that relationship has cost the teams championships and success and produced very little. Of all the great Red Sox players of the last decade, Devers was the least qualified to get a 10 year extension because his body type and his age are key factors impacting his ability to play beyond age 32 effectively. Mookie on the other hand will be a far better player at 40 than Devers will be at 33. Bogaerts will be a better player at 36 and possibly 38 than Devers will be at 33. The 10 year deal should have gone to the franchise player, Mookie Betts. If not, then to Bogaerts. Devers, due to his one dimensional abilities needed to get his 10 year deal at age 23 not 27.
The other change in Henry is his overseas investments. In 2002 his baby was the Red Sox, now he is diversified so he has multiple pockets to reach into if he needs money for something important but I agree he won’t outspend the Yankees, Mets or Dodgers. They are playing with Monopoly Money when it comes to spending for their team. NY has done that for 100 years but the Mets have recently removed the beware of the CAP sign when negotiating contracts as well as LAD.
LAD is the fun team to watch because Magic Johnson has really changed their philosophy. He is willing to give up arguably 2 of the finest SSs in baseball in Seager and T Turner so they can have Japanese sensations, Betts and Freeman. They now prefer shiny things to quality players. There is no emphasis on winning everything in LA, it’s all about giving the impression that they have a great chance to win everything every year. The reality of not doing it is irrelevant because the dream exists every year and is sold as such. The fan base is thrilled yet they have one short season ring in 45 years. That’s great marketing.
Boston spent nearly a century waiting for success then they got both the Red Sox and Patriots in a 20 year window out succeeding the rest of the sports world and now it’s over. No Brady and no Betts and no championships. This ownership group still makes $300MM plus and they have sucked for four years. The Pats are experiencing a similar story.
I think Henry needs to change the message to Breslow and say bring back the all-stars that Bloom got rid of. Not the same players, just the elite players that create the foundation of a winning organization. Money should be insignificant to create this jump start of the beating heart that appears to be fading.
Trollfree – smells like KD Jr.
Seconded.
My mute must be full as I am starting to see trolls I had previously muted….
What an absolute and unmitigated joke! Sell the team!
If there is one saving grace in this tough division, is that as bad as it might get for the Yankees, it will be worse for the Red Sox.
Drink up boys, it is going to be a long season!.
Misery loves company… plenty of room on the couch for Yankees…. Next to us…man 04 seem so so long ago… but 98/99/00 even longer…funny the dynasty then because was made up of a big part of home grown talent… then sprinkle in nice players like Scott Bsnd so on… so in conclusion at least with our two franchises while very good they weren’t mega teams. Like the Dodgers have become… beware strong team but that target gets really heavy after 162 plus….. ps anyone sign brasier yet??
The Red Sox self-destructed on February 10th, 2020. By trading Mookie Betts the Sox annihilated the baseball-brand they’d worked diligently to establish since 2004. In one mind-blowing, inexcusable act of stupidity the Sox generated a franchise altering identity crisis and it’s playing out in both the front office and between the lines to date. The Sox brass will again be getting what they deserve in 2024 – last place in the AL East.
30 Parks – Well said and so true. The Betts deal was the most destructive move since giving Ruth to NY. The pivotal move that changed the future was firing DD after winning 3 unprecedented Division Championships and a ring. One bad year caused by Cora should not have ended Boston’s future but it did. Ownership should have listened to DD and signed Mookie for $9MM more per year for the next decade.
Massive, massive mistake as you so eloquently stated!!!
” … caused by Cora.” Great point, Troll. Sox fired the wrong guy. The Red Sox are facing fundamental issues, both on and off the field, and I think that’s being downplayed. I’ll never forgive the Mookie trade – malpractice in all regards.
What if the Red Sox ownership – FSG- really is in a very tight financial situation rather than being rich Nutters who are just pocketing the net income from their Red Sox cash cow? Before you say no way – take a look at some of the possible signs:. 1) Clearly, they don’t want to spend anything significant on players -even to keep respectability fo their best asset- the Boston Red Sox.; The brand is taking a big hit for doing this and the fan base is irate with disgust continuing to grow.. 2) Liverpool football lost a lot ($$) during the pandemic as did the Red Sox. However, Liverpool is not generating a lot of net income in recovery and has some massive debt to pay off.- about half of this is to lenders outside of FSG.; FSG has talked about selling Liverpool but now is backing away from that talk. However, financials there don’t look very good. 3) Buying the Pittsburg Penguins has what seems to be a 16 year payback period based on published sale price and recent annual net income.. Hockey is a drain on FSG in the short run and may have been decided with the expectation of a sale of Liverpool. 5) Some of FSG other assets may also be losers. For example, the Boston Globe. How well are newspapers doing these days? 4) The Red Sox are in the process of selling their new AAA stadium in Worcester, MA. even though Its only about 2 years old.. That has a look of desparation to it. 5) FSG is composed of a lot of investors who probably expect an annual return..on their money. Any such contractual commitments to investors undoubtedly is coming out of Red Sox related revenues. 6) John Henry, Principle owner, controls 40% of the shares per public statements. That is a lot but it is also less than 51% meaning that he can be outvoted. . (this is unlike most big MLB teams where there really is a deep pocket billionaire owner.). If this thesis is true expect the Red Sox to sell some of their assets in the near term future..
@SportsLogic, great insight. Also LL is selling the WooSox and he still has a stake in FSG. It would be nice if the Boston media would investigate and report on thus, but as you point out, FSG owns a big part of that.
FSG does not own Polar Park and has no financial interest in the Worcester Red Sox. The WooSox are owned by an investment group that has absolutely nothing to do with FSG. The fact that Larry Luchino maintains a small share of FSG is totally irrelevant.
FSG just sold a small equity stake (estimated at $100-$200) million to Dynasty Equity and can always raise additional funds by selling shares. Liverpool FC is a worldwide brand, unlike the Red Sox, and is worth $5..3 billion. The Sox are worth around $4 billion. Whatever debt Liverpool has is totally manageable.
FSG has a totally different operating philosophy than the Dodgers or Yankees. That philosophy has brought the Sox 4 WS championships this century and restored Liverpool to the top of world football with a premier League and Champions League trophy. You may not agree with it but it has worked and FSG doesn’t see any need to change it.
And FSG is certainly not in any financial trouble.
PK – That philosophy changed after the 2019 season, why are you ignoring that small fact?
Red Sox were Top 4 in payroll for all 4 of those championship years, including Top 2 for 3 of them. Why are you denying that fact?
Within just 4 years they went from biggest payroll in MLB to 13th, and you’re actually pretending that didn’t happen?
Why are you ignoring the fact Fenway Corners began being planned at the same time, the end of 2019?
No, FSG is not in financial trouble …. but they certainly prefer siphoning revenue generated by the Red Sox instead of taking out more loans for the massive redevelopment that will be happening around Fenway for the next decade.
Rhys Hoskins (1B/DH) would hit 40+ HR with the BoSox. Take it from a Phillies fan, BoSox fans will love this guy. Plus, he won’t cost a lot coming off the ACL injury that sidelined him for all of last season. Maybe two years at $12-$15 million per year. Thank me in October.
Backup – I think highly of Hoskins but doesn’t he need to fill a hole for him to be a good add? Casas is a young inexpensive star at 1B and my goodness we have plenty of DHs so as much as Hoskins is a nice add in general, he’s an ineffective add in Boston just like Yoshida, Schwarber and so many others Bloom picked up without considering what we had.
If Casas hadn’t had a break out season, I would be 100% behind your suggestion. or if we traded Devers and Yoshida so DH was open.
“Full Throttle”
Sign snell and o Hernandez. Then trade for India. That should put Boston in competition for the division
big whiffa – I like the India suggestsion. I’m a fan of Merrifield but either would look great at 2B in 2024.
Snell is inconsistent but has a high upside. He reminds me a bit too much of Price after he won his Cy Young after being close several times. I don’t think Snell and Cora is a good mix.
Here is Redsox Nation’s “Full Throttle” $0.00 spent in 2024 at the moment. 0 viewers on streaming or NESN. To Be Cont…
I get that most people are really upset about what has been happening with the big club. I get why most fans are also are “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” my nod The Who. I think that’s a very micro view of the situation. Breslow has come in and hired three highly thought of guys to revamp the pitching in the organization. He just hired very highly thought of Noah Junis to be the bullpen coach at AAA. This goes along with a new pitching coach Andrew Bailey and a new director of pitching Justin Willard. Breslow has quietly put in place three guys that are very well thought of in the baseball world to help shape the pitching now and in the future. I think this will prove to be the most important thing that Breslow’s does this off-season. It’s also the thing that most fans don’t understand how important that is if, as it appears, ownership doesn’t want to swim in the deep side of the free agent pool.
Very good points and I agree. However none of these guys plays anymore and you need players to compete. With no talent on your roster you are condemning this team to last place again. Boston is a big market baseball town and this “Full Throttle Offseason” expressed by Werner looks like we need a new carburetor and timing belt. Please wake up Breslow or wake me up when he does something significant instead of trading a decent player for cheap Minor League talent and picking up a player who had a good year 3 years ago. That trade reminds me of the Craig Allen trade with the Cardinals years back and the guy could not get out of the minors.
Imagine a deaf person is on a jury but no one knows he’s deaf. He sits through the whole trial and writes down that the defendant is guilty. He hasn’t heard anything, but the guy just looks guilty. That, my friends, are all of you Red Sox fans right now. You don’t have a damn clue, but you’re sure that Breslow is incompetent.
whyhayzee – We don’t have a clue? What constitutes a clue? Inaction? Is that a clue? Does it suggest a lack of urgency? Is a lack of urgency a clue?
Isn’t it safer to just state that you disagree with the popular opinion of what Breslow is doing (or in this case not doing) and insulting Red Sox Nation isn’t necessary.
In most mature discussions, a person says I disagree and here is why. You just declared everyone but you an idiot. I hope you can understand why folks don’t see that as a valid argument.
Let me ask you a few questions. Do you think Breslow understands that his job includes pleasing the fan base while improving the team and the system? Do you think Breslow has an understanding of the history of what has happened in the last four years and WHY people are unhappy? If so, and he’s as smart as everyone says he is, shouldn’t he realize that the fan base is impatient when it comes to taking action or not taking action in this case. Do you think he read up on how DD walked in and made immediate changes and won an unprecedented 3 Division Titles and then Bloom took a World CHampionship team and did nothing but reduce talent and won NOTHING? If he’s as smart as everyone says he is, shouldn’t he realize there is a need for immediate action if things are to turn around quickly or do you think he can sign the same song that Bloom sang and tell people things will be fixed SOMEDAY without specify a time table for change?
Red Sox Nation is reacting like normal fans. They want change and they want it now since it was ownership who extended Bloom an extra year to further devastate the roster.
I think maybe your patience may be welcomed by Breslow but not by fans. We did the trust me thing with Bloom and got burned badly. It’s not happening a second time.
Trollfree…. I get where you are coming from but the majority of posters here on this site that are Sox fans would still be beatchin up a storm even if the Sox were actually dominant the last four years.
Did you really expect Breslow to be DD in his first off season? As long as Cora is still here, the Sox are not going anywhere. I wanted Yamamoto, because at 25 he was a good piece for the future, but realistically, this team will not contend until Mayer, Anthony, Teel and Rafaela are everyday players at the Major League Level. Breslow is going to need time to clean up the mess that he has inherited.
Just what the heck is Breslow supposed to have done by now? Spend a billion dollars like the Dodgers? Throw huge amounts of money at Monty and Snell? Hader? Make moves for the sake of making moves? To keep the fans happy? We are judging him now? At the end of December? Well, I’m not. In 60 years of rooting for this team, I’ve seen a lot worse than Bloom, and I’m hoping that Breslow does better. But I’m willing to wait and see how it fleshes out.
Cooper – Here’s what you’re forgetting:
This year the Sox were 2 games out of a playoff spot at the trade deadline, and up until then they owned teams like the Yankees, Jays and Braves. That was despite having a pathetic middle infield all season without Story, Kluber being a total bust, Casas sucking for the first couple months, Duvall being out for months, and a pitching staff that was missing Whitlock, Sale and Houck for a large part of the season.
So what makes you think next year they aren’t going anywhere?
If Casas, Duran, Houck, Whitlock and Sale stay healthy all year and they get one more decent bat and a couple decent pitchers, there’s no reason they can’t grab at least a WC spot. And I’m not even assuming that Bello and Yoshida will have better seasons than they did this year, even though it’s highly likely they both will.
That’s why they play the games. All they’ve gotta do is be one of the 6 best teams in a 15-team league..
It really seems like many people here don’t want to be disappointed, so they assume the worst will happen.
Just like in 2021, and 2013, and 2004.
Cooper – I did not have preconceived notions about Breslow. I liked his selection due to his pitching background but I did expect the Big Market GM to act like a big market GM by firing Cora and moving Devers. Those are such obvious moves and they cost NOTHING!! They also add 10 wins to 2024 by not having Cora and Devers errors.
There aren’t too many DD type GMs who are “get things done immediately” type guys BUT seeing another ex=pitcher in Texas take the GM spot and sign Seager and Semien immediately I hoped Breslow would be similar. He isn’t.
I like the future guys you mentioned but to varying degrees. I think banking on Mayer may be like banking on Moncada. He doesn’t hit me as a Bobby Witt or CJ Abrams immediate impact type guy so getting a young SS going into free agency would not be a bad idea in a trade for Mayer. Adames and Burnes really appeal to me for Mayer and the lesser prospects who might also be redundant prospects like Blaze Jordan. Mayer, Yorke, Bleis, Romero, Zanetello, Cespedes and Anderson. Throw in Yoshida who is redundant and maybe Milwaukee makes a deal to shore up their minors for players they will lose at the end of 2024. Breslow would need to extend both players for 5 years. That way the defense improves at SS and 3B. The pitching rotation gets 1 of the 2 they need and some likely over-rated prospects actually provide value rather than going the Downs route and being DFA’d in a few years.
Remember, only a couple of guys in the Red Sox farm system have been rated as high (44th) as Downs was when we got him. The ratings usually have more to do with when a player is drafted not his actual skills once he’s in the minors.
I say keep Casas, Anthony, Rafaela, Abreu as the core group of the future along with Teel and use the rest to enhance trade offers for two SPs the quality of Burnes.
You are right that Breslow inherited a mess and I sure hope he researched that mess before he said yes so he had a plan on how to turn things around. One of the things I liked most about DD was his long term thinking and his structured filling of positions.
C – Vazquez and Leon
1B – Moreland with Casas as the long term guy
2B – Pedroia then cheap good glove alternatives
SS – Bogaerts
3B – Devers
LF – Benny
CF = JBJ then Duran
RF – Mookie
DH – JD and eventually Devers
We knew that team could win for years. Now we have no plan because Bloom was a wing-it kind of guy. Breslow needs to identify his plan by position. I hope he agrees with what I have below but he hasn’t suggested anything yet!!
C – Teel
1B – Casas
2B – TBD
SS – TBD (Mayer most likely of all the SSs in the system)
3B – TBD
LF – Anthony
CF – Duran
RF – Rafaela
DH – Devers
Breslow needs to fix the TBDs with good contracts for several years. If I were him I’d aim high at all the positions and work my way down as I get rejections from other teams!!
I’d start by going to KC knowing Witt has several years of control left and offer them multiple young prospects to get Witt to build around. He’s much more than Mayer will ever be but he’s unlikely to be moved until much closer to Free Agency. Then I’d go see if there is a great young 3B to trade other prospects for. I suggested Henderson in BAL two years ago but now he’s untouchable. Jung is excellent but he too is untouchable. Maybe BAL might trade Coby Mayo to Boston for other position prospects since Mayo and Henderson play the same position and Jackson Holiday will move Henderson back to 3B from SS where he played in 2023. Adding Mayo would allow Devers to transition and the team would be incredibly tough in the infield for years.
I would love to see a Mayo, Adames, Story, Casas infield, an Anthony, Rafaela and Abreu outfield (trade Duran in the Mayo deal). Devers at DH and Teel at catcher. That team can compete in the AL East for years!! A rotation of Burnes, TBD, Bello, Houck, Crawford beginning in 2025 would also be competitive with 2024 also having Sale. If the three youngster don’t live up to being 3-5 starters then we go get someone else. We need a long-term closer since Jansen is only one year from Free Agency and he’s fairly old. Maybe a lefty closer to go with Jansen in 2024 and to take over in 2025 would work well with this pitching staff. We desperately need to lefties who can get out great left handed hitters to be competitive in the AL East.
Breslow has a mess thanks to Bloom and ownership. He can take his time and frustrate Red Sox Nation or he can quicken the pace and make us competitive in 2024. That’s his call. He has a ton of money to spend and if he needs to cut into the $330MM of profits in 2024 then he should ask for it because fans will appreciate the effort and will respond by improving merchandising, ticket sales and NESN revenue.
I really don’t think there would as much complaining if they went back to winning the Division and a ring or two in the next 4 to 8 years. I think the abrupt turning of the organization onto its head soured many, many fans. For me it’s all about Cora. I won’t wear a Red Sox jersey until he is fired and hopefully humiliated because as an ex player I feel humiliated that he didn’t receive adequate punishment for his cheating. I blame the commissioner and the players association for the leniency but it was such a disrespectful action that I think banishment was the only fair punishment. I also think the participants should have been suspended but that would have hurt baseball so it wasn’t done despite it being fair.
I can’t blame Yamamoto for not coming to Boston. He saw a team in shambles. He saw a team with no defense. He saw a team with a convicted cheater for a manager. These aren’t great marketing concepts to sell the to prospective free agents. Breslow needs to fix the obvious problems sooner rather than later. If ownership wants to fire him for firing Cora then let them because this is not a team he would want to GM with a guy like Cora reporting to him and sticking knives in his back to ownership. It’s his career and he’s a smart guy so I am hoping he has an appropriate time for the firing already planned and an appropriate time for moving Devers already planned. If so, I will show him great respect going forward. If not, he’s Bloom II.
Whyhayzee – I would like the list of worse GMs that are worse than Bloom. THERE ARE NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are lots and lots of things that Breslow could have done by now but he hasn’t made it happen. The question is why? I don’t believe the funding is an issue. So then why hasn’t he been able to make a deal with MIL for Burnes? Is he afraid of trading Bloom pretenders like Mayer, Yorke and Jordan?
Why is making a deal considered making a deal for the sake of making a deal because it happens quickly? You can make smart moves quickly. The KC GM figured it out. If everyone is focused on FAs then go get guys a year from Free Agency with the highly over rated prospects from Bloom.
Fever – It’s simple. Talent. Look at the schedule in 2023. Most of the games vs the AL East happened in September when things matter so the early April wins vs AL East teams mean nothing compared to the collapse in September. since the volume is greatest in Sept with the new schedule format.
This team can’t win over 81 games with Devers at 3B. The 50 misplays are simply too much to be more than a .500 team. Throw in Yoshida’s games in the field and the defense will rank at the bottom once again. Remember the phrase Defense and Pitching win championships. We have neither.
If you want to rationalize why they COULD BE good that’s great but face it, this team lacks talent. The young guys are developing and the experienced guys are one dimensional. Devers is hit only, Story is defense only and the other 5 positions are young guys some of which could have sophomore slumps.
The pitching is worse right now than the hitting. Without two legitimate SPs at the top, this team is far below league average with it’s rotation and their match-ups will favor the other team all the way down the rotation.
This team as is will likely be a top five pick in the 2025 draft. Breslow needs to fix the problems and everyone says his hands are tied to do it. No firing Cora and no moving Devers so NO WINNING. It’s just that simple.
Nobody wants to be disappointed but I don’t worry about it. I look at the talent level and compare it to the rest of the division and it’s a clear 5th place finish now that Soto is in NY. BAL is clearly better, TOR is clearly better and TB always looks mediocre and somehow outperforms the Red Sox. I think it’s because they have a good manager and we have the worst manager. In the end, this team is bottom of the barrel by a long ways until Breslow adds talent.
You can’t use 2004, 2013 and 2021 as valid comparisons because those teams had lots more talent than the current roster. They just all had to gel in the same season. That can’t happen like it did in 2021 because there is no CORE GROUP. There is no Bogaerts, JD, Nate to lead the team to wins. It’s the highly over-rated Devers and a bunch of youngsters. Story hasn’t hit in Boston and hoping O’Neill has another career year is a long shot at best. This team as of today stinks. Bloom damaged the talent level and nobody has replaced the lost talent. Until Breslow does, this team will stiink!!!
Daniel F. Duqette 1994-02
James “Lou” Gorman 1984-93
Haywood C. Sullivan 1978-83
Richard H. O’Connell 1965-77
Michael F. Higgins 1963-65
Haywood Sullivan was AWFUL, way worse than Bloom. And it’s not even close. Dick O’Connell and Lou Gorman and Dan Duqette were decent, O’Connell maybe the best of them. Higgins was nothing special.
The biggest problem is they’ve never developed enough pitching. Lonborg, Clemens, Lester, etc. were great, but mid rotation guys? Not so much. Closers? Papelbon, not much else. That’s why I’m happy to see Breslow.
By the way, they have resurrected a good number of pitchers over the years, so that has been an organizational positive. Bloom probably tried to tap into that but didn’t follow through well at all. Kluber over Eovaldi?
Yes, I paint with a broad brush. Red Sox fans have always been so doom and gloom. Yuck. I live in Yankee country, had to deal with that for decades. So I stay positive about the Red Sox.
And I believe in Breslow.
Trollfree: I am so with you on Cora…. my saying all off season has been. “The wound can’t heal until you completely get rid of the infection”…. Cora has got to go. I also agree that Devers Defense is a problem, but I love his bat so DH him. I actually think he will hit better as a DH because when he scuffles defensively it affects his approach in the box. I would sign Chapman, play him at 3rd move Devers to DH and trade Yoshida.
Where I disagree is with Mayer. I think he is going to be an all star SS and I believe he will hit and would not trade him. I am also an ex-player, and was a switch hitting SS. You talk about trading for pitching with some of the redundancy from the minor league system…. I am with you, but I think Yorke, Romero, Zanetello, Blies, Cespedes is the group you trade from.
I am not punting on 2024, but like I said, with Cora still here it is hard to get excited about much.
hayzee – Imagine painting a large and diverse group of people with the same broad brush.
Imagine labeling all of them guilty simply by association.
Oh wait a minute, you don’t need to imagine … you’ve already done all that.
Full throttle indeed , the dam needle has move off last place finish yet
Full throttle with no fuel in the engine . Or a sh#+ electric with no charge .
Full Throttle on ZERO spending and attendance in 2024 for Redsox Nation! It appears a louder statement needs to be made by New England Fans Worldwide so it sinks in!
Need starters….
Montgomery, Imanaga available lefties or trade to get Luzardo…any of these I think would be great additions.
Giolito or trade for Burnes both are righties that I think would be great additions to the rotation.
We need at least 2 starters & sign/extend to 3-4 year deals.
Then get an everyday 2nd baseman…so why not get Rosario? He is pretty good utility player or jump on Merrifield. Either way sign them to a 1-2 yr deal cuz Story or Mayer will be at 2nd eventually!
Thoughts??
hitman32 – Very logical approach to what Boston should do.
Key spots where the team needs to change:
1 – 3B needs to have someone who can field and Devers needs to DH
2 – Story needs to be upgraded if possible and I suggest using Mayer and other prospects to get Burnes and Adames to play SS
3 – Rosario and Merrifield are great ideas for 2B
4 – Two SPs – One being Burnes and the other being a lefty.
5 – A lefty late inning reliever or two would be very productive as well.
6 – If there is money available, upgrade the catcher spot so when Teel arrives we have two solid catchers. Wong and McGuire are KC caliber catchers.
Hitman,
A few thoughts.
1) I don’t think Boston ownership is going to pay Monty he’s getting more money somewhere else. I think Shota is a real possibility I also think Giolito is a real possibility.
2) I’m not big on trading for Burnes and I don’t think Milwaukee is trading him this off-season. If they do trade him it will probably be at the trade deadline. The Brewers are in a very weak division I just can’t see them punting the season. Also let’s not forget Burnes has already said he’s testing free agency he’s a Boras client.
3). I like the idea of trading for Luzardo but we don’t know if he’s even available that’s the problem with trade ideas. If he is depending on cost I would be all for trading for him.
4) I think Merrifield is fine if he can be had for a 1 year max 2 year contract if he wants anymore then that I’d pass. Honestly I’m not sure about Rosario but if he can play a solid 2nd base defensively and take a one or two year contract then I’d be fine with that addition.
Overall I think the additions you suggest make sense. The trades are tough because we don’t know who’s truly available.
Troll while generally I agree with you I do think Cora is a big problem but ownership came out and said Cora was coming back to manage the team even before Breslow was named POBO. I don’t think Breslow got the go ahead to fire Cora. It’s probably the reason most of the other qualified guys just didn’t want the job. They didn’t want to be saddled with Cora. I also believe while Cora is here Devers is playing third at least this year. I will tell you I agree with you moving Devers to DH makes the most sense and signing Chapman to play steller defense makes a lot of sense to me.
I know you suggested Coby Mayo trade to play third but I don’t think you have watched him play third. He makes a ton of errors. He has actually had more errors than Devers had in the minors at third. He’s very unlikely to be a third baseman he’s probably going to have to move to first base or the outfield. He hasn’t really been good defensively at first though either.
I think the best we can hope for is another poor season and Cora getting canned after this season. I guess there is a passive aggressive way for Breslow to make sure that Devers is moved off of third and that’s to trade him but I doubt that happens.