Reds second baseman Jonathan India, the 2021 National League Rookie of the Year, saw his name pop up on the rumor circuit over the summer and has already been an oft-cited trade candidate in the early stages of the offseason. Recent reports from Bob Nightengale of USA Today and Jeff Passan of ESPN do little to quell the belief that the 26-year-old could change hands this winter. Nightengale wrote over the weekend that Cincinnati is “expected” to trade India this offseason, while Passan writes this morning that the Reds have been suggesting to potential trade partners that India is the “odd man out” in their glut of infielders.
Indeed, the Reds have an enviable crop of young talent on the dirt. Beyond India, they saw former first-round pick Matt McLain, top prospect Elly De La Cruz and trade acquisitions Spencer Steer, Noelvi Marte and Christian Encarnacion-Strand all log time in the big leagues.
McLain was the most impressive of the bunch, hitting .290/.357/.507 with 16 homers and 14 steals in 403 trips to the plate. De La Cruz faded after a hot start but still posted a .235/.300/.410 line with 13 homers and a whopping 35 steals in just 98 games — all while recording intriguing batted-ball metrics per Statcast and showing off his elite speed. Steer, meanwhile, bounced between first base, second base, third base and the outfield corners while delivering a .271/.356/.464 output and 23 homers. Encarnacion-Strand (.270/.328/.477, 13 homers in 241 plate appearances) and Marte (.316/.366/.456 in 123 plate appearances) saw less time than the others but acquitted themselves nicely in their MLB debuts.
It’s an immensely talented quintet — one with plenty of defensive versatility. It seems likely that Encarnacion-Strand will settle in at first base and designated hitter, and Steer clearly enjoyed success at the plate in a nomadic, jack-of-all-trades role (even if he graded as a below-average defender at all five positions). Each of De La Cruz, Marte and McLain can handle shortstop, third base or second base. De La Cruz saw the most time at shortstop of the bunch but also posted lesser defensive grades than McLain. The Reds can tinker with the exact alignment in spring training, but regardless of who’s manning which position, it’s hard not to be bullish on Cincinnati’s emerging core of young infielders.
Given that wealth of talent, it becomes easier to see how India could be the odd man out. He’s yet to replicate his excellent showing in that aforementioned Rookie of the Year campaign, when he batted .269/.376/.459 with 21 home runs, 23 doubles, 12 steals and an 11.3% walk rate. He’s since turned in a .246/.333/.394 batting line in 960 plate appearances, showing diminished power and a walk rate about three percentage points lower than his rookie mark. Defensive Runs Saved and Outs Above Average both cast him as a poor defender at his position.
Due to his former draft status (fifth overall in 2018), prospect pedigree and that Rookie of the Year showing, many fans have speculated that India could be used to help the Reds acquire an upgrade for the front portion of their rotation. However, given India’s struggles with the glove and (over the past two seasons) at the plate, it doesn’t seem all that likely that he’d command a strong rotation piece on his own — or even as the headliner in a package also including lesser prospects.
India is entering his first arbitration season, projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz to earn $3.7MM in 2024, and remains controllable for another three seasons. Those factors, plus his age, are perhaps the Reds’ strongest selling points in trade talks. That said, India feels more like a buy-low candidate than many onlookers might expect for someone who looked like a Reds building block just two years ago. The absolute dearth of quality infield options on the free agent market will play to the Reds’ benefit in drumming up interest, but it seems unlikely that India will fetch them a major upgrade to the starting rotation.
MLBTR’s Darragh McDonald and I discussed India’s potential trade candidacy (among many other topics) on the upcoming episode of the MLB Trade Rumors podcast, and just this past weekend MLBTR’s Nick Deeds took a look at some potential landing spots for India in the event that the Reds ultimately do move him. India placed 11th on MLBTR’s list of the top 25 offseason trade candidates just yesterday.
Really seems like the Mariners would be well poised to land India. They have arms they can move and it doesn’t seem like they want to start the year with Rojas as their everyday 2B.
Marco Gonzales? M’s shouldn’t give up any of their good pieces for India.
@flutie
India isn’t some cheap rental, so it’s going to take more than Marco Gonzales and his 5.22 ERA. He also is on the books for $12 mil next year, something the Reds will want to be avoiding. Could get the same production from Rich Hill for just a few million.
Hancock or Woo are more likely the targets for Cincy. Whether the M’s are willing to do that though remains to be seen. India hasn’t been THAT great the last couple of seasons, but he’s still around a top 15ish (back end) 2B, which would make him by far the best 2B “in the market” if he were a FA. That helps inflate his value a bit.
Polanco is in the trade market and much better than India
Gleyber might be as well. I’d rather have Polanco from that group, but each has their pros and cons. Torres just one year left and makes running/fielding mistakes. Polanco has missed significant time the last two seasons. India’s glove and bat have been underwhelming for two years.
Gonzales has negative trade value.
Flutie didn’t actually mean Gonzalez for India. Come on people.
If the Reds could somehow land Emerson Hancock with a deal with the Nariners that would be excellent for them. Plus, he’d fit right in alongside their glut of young and up and coming studs.
What do you guys think India + another one of their top 7 prospects for Hancock?
Top 7? Not a chance…
I don’t think the Reds would need to add a prospect.
Hancock wouldn’t even rank in the top 7 of reds farm. They are absolutely loaded. M’s fans should be aware of that.
And india is more valuable than Hancock one for one. Berroa and Hancock for India – bet reds take that.
@big whiffa
Hancock or Woo for India is a pretty even trade. India has a 97 OPS+ the last two years and generally poor defense. If anything, it might cost more from the Reds to get one of those arms.
as a Cardinals fan looking in, India is definitely not more valuable than Hancock 1 for 1. mediocre 2nd baseman don’t get controllable starters by themselves. Indias top prospect status is long gone. He’s not near the best option available for MI help either. The Mariners could get Merrifield and get the same or better production.
Disagree…Hancock is already 24 and still has essentially done nothing at the MLB level despite his pedigree (his Minor stats are not great either). India has a 4 WAR ROY under his belt and is still only 26 and is a proven MLB quality starter.
Only thing Hancock gives you IMO is extra years of control.
Indeed Jonathan India posted a 4.1 bWAR in 150 games en route to NL Rookie of Year honors in 2021. However, over the past two seasons India has combined for only 1.1 bWAR in 222 games.
Kyle Lewis had a 162-game pace of 4 bWAR in 2020 when Lewis was named AL Rookie of the Year in the shortened season. A year ago Lewis was traded for scraps and now is a nontender candidate.
India has not fallen as far as Lewis has but neither has much trade value.
Yes the Reds should trade India for Justin Dunn 2.0. Hancock has has arm and elbow problems the last year. The Reds lose that trade by a mile.
Unless the Reds trade Jonathan India for Brandon Williamson 2.0 or even Connor Phillips 2.0.
@ Degaz
Already 24? Really? I guess he’s a waste then… Minor league ERA of 3.77 with 242 SO’s to 93 BB’s… Yep, total garbage. Come on now.
This year Jonathan India posted 1.2 fWAR in 119 games while Seattle second baseman Josh Rojas posted 1.1 fWAR in 105 games.
Baseball Trade Values assigns India a surplus value of $7.7 million and Rojas a surplus value of $8.9 million.
FWIW
Rojas is a borderline non tender candidate. I don’t think that value is correct.
Jonathan India and Josh Rojas each come with three years of team control, India at a projected 2024 salary of $3.7 million and Rojas at a projected 2024 salary of $3.5 million.
The point is that the Seattle Mariners are unlikely to trade much for a questionable upgrade.
Cincinnati is likely to tender Jonathan India a contract but it’s not a slam dunk if the Reds cannot find a trade partner.
Like India, 2020 AL Rookie of the Year Kyle Lewis has three more years of team control. Nevertheless Lewis reportedly is a nontender candidate despite his modest projected 2024 salary of $1.61 million:
si.com/mlb/diamondbacks/analysis/diamondbacks-2023…
Must be true then…..it’s a good thing all MLB GM’s consider BTV the Bible of GM’s
India for Hancock would be fair. I would love to see how India would look defensively after Perry Hill gets ahold of him. Hill is the best infield coach in MLB and turned a bad defensive player in Ty France into a gold glove caliber 1b, and his work with both Suarez and Crawford has been amazing.
Ron Washington is one of the games best infield coaches as well. Although, admittingly, he’s now a manager, so the title may be Hill’s. lol
People forget Dansby wasn’t always a great, GG caliber defensive SS; in fact, at one point in time, he was very, very mediocre. Wash helped him reach these heights.
The same goes for Austin Riley’s significant improvement at 3B, Ozzy at 2nd, etc. Man, I’m going to hate to not see him as the Braves 3B coach/infield coach anymore, but he more than deserves another shot at redemption for how it ended his last go around.
They have Moore, Caballero, and Haggerty to platoon with Rojas, plus Bliss set to debut at some point.
India makes little sense for Seattle.
India has more upside at 2B that anyone on the M’s roster. Bliss is a few years away from making the MLB club.
But honestly I would be more interested in trading with the Twins for Kepler and Polanco. I think we match up ideally with them. Woo and a prospect in the 10 to 15 range. Fills the gap in RF and 2B, give Minnesota salary relief and middle rotation starter with years of control.
I think he is incredibly average…as are Seattle’s options.
Bliss is in AAA and set to debut in 2024. You’re probably thinking of Young, who is at least a year out and possibly two.
India for France. Make it happen.
How does France help the Reds?
I really hope the Astros trade for India. They need an upgrade over Pena and Dubon.
Peña is better then India it would be a downgrade for Astros
In what universe is Pena better than India?
.259/.307/.381 with a 98 OPS+ is better than .255/.350/.419 with a 105 OPS+??
In a universe where you want players to play defense.
And Altuve?
What about him?
Are either of India or Altuve capable at SS? India isn’t even a good defensive 2B and doesn’t have much of an arm.. Presumably Bregman is still your 3B?
If India could play SS he’d probably stay put in Cincy.
This article is misleading. India had a great first half last season before he was injured.
Let’s state the real reason India will be traded. India is entering his arbitration year. India will make a mere $3.7 million dollars. Please take a look at the Red’s roster and find another player who is due to make that much in 2024. The only one who is earning that much is Ken Griffey Jr.
The Castellinis want a team full of players earning major league minimum. Worst ran franchise in sports.
Totally understandable to hate on the Reds ownership, but if India is traded, it wont be because of an arbitration raise to 3.7 million…it will 100 percent be due to the fact that hes a solid but flawed player that is not as talented as the younger guys.
Outside of maybe McLain and Marte, they all have flaws, every one of them. The most famous (Elly) more than most.
Elly is 21 years old and hasnt played full season yet….and McLain (who you agree is better than India) will be playing the only position India is capable of playing…and I am using capable very loosely because he isnt a good defensive 2b
India can play 3B as well. That’s what he was in college and beginning of minors. He can be a DH/sub INF guy and clubhouse leader. Trading him, unless it’s for an ace, would be a mistake.
No he cannot, he is an absolute liability at second base, he certainly cannot play an effective third. No team is trading an ace pitcher for Jonathan India without us adding in multiple high prospects, you are way over inflating is value.
Guy plays 3B for NCAA D1 school, becomes 1st Rd pick. Plays 3B in minors, later moves to 2B and advances to The Show, the pinnacle of baseball. Wins RoY. Reportedly desired by many teams at GM meetings.
sjcourtney56: “He’s not good enough.”
Sorry if I don’t take you seriously dude.
Also, if you’d read my comment down the thread, I’d recommend he be a DH and a sub INF. We don’t need him to play the field every day, so he would be a serviceable sub for 2B/3B when they need rest. I also mentioned we’d have to include prospects. Which is fine because all our infield prospects are blocked right now anyway.
That is an interesting quote of mine, but where did I say “he’s not good enough”? Many players have positions in college and even in the minors but when they get to the big leagues they have to make a switch because they do not have the ability to handle that position in the major leagues…India has poor reactions and a weak arm…he is best suited for 2b and yet he is not a good defensive 2b….so it would be a very bad decision to then move a guy to a more difficult defensive position just because he played there at the university of florida and played there in AA in 2019.
They all have flaws including McClain and Marte. McLain struck out a ton last year and didn’t walk a lot (209SO in a 162 game rate) which makes me nervous about a sophomore slump. Marte has not shown a lot of power yet and his sample size is still pretty small. He’s certainly not a sure thing yet.
don’t we all have flaws? some worse than others….
India didn’t switch because he couldn’t play 3b thats completely false. He switched because the Reds didn’t need a 3b and they needed a 2b.
You seem to be operating from the perspective that he would be an everyday infield player though. He doesn’t need to play there every day anymore. McLain and Marte should be the starting 2B/3B, so India can DH while still providing a serviceable option if those guys need a rest and then he provides valuable intangibles such as experience and leadership. This defensive stuff is just nitpicking. He’s a good player and we shouldn’t get rid of him unless it’s for a top end pitcher.
He has not played 1 inning of third base above AA, for all the garbage the reds have run out on the field, India has not logged one inning at third…and somehow everyone here is of the belief that not only can he do it, but he can do it effectively and that it should be part of the Reds plans for 2024….if the Reds believed he could handle the position he would have at least had some innings there over the last 3 years….I give up though, clearly I am the crazy one and he is destined to play third
That’s a good point too. We had Suarez, and Senzel hadn’t moved to the OF yet either, and he was still a top prospect at that time.
Lol, you’re still acting like he’d be there all the time. I think you just don’t want to admit you’re wrong on his overall value as a player.
I can nitpick that EDLC isn’t a particularly good SS. In fact, McLain and Marte played better defensively there. But I bet no one wants to hear that.
I dont have any problem being wrong and I hope India nets the ace you believe he will.. I very much doubt that he plays any innings at third for the Reds in 2024 if he is still on the team and I very much doubt he plays any innings at third for whatever team may acquire him.
And you may be right about that. We’re just disagreeing about the Reds can, or should do. But the Reds often don’t do what they should do, as history clearly has shown. They shouldn’t trade India. We shouldn’t even be talking about this. But here we are.
If you think he can get the reds an ace, there should be no question that he should be traded if his main value to the reds, according to you,in 2024 is DH and infield depth
Which is why I made my sad prediction about next season.
Chris Coghlan won ROY and was never to be seen as a replacement level player since. India is not the far off, the leagues got a book on him. His bat is his carrying skill and it’s average. His defense is garbage and makes him a liability. Hancock is too much for India. Young controllable starting pitching is the most sought after resource. As a homer fan, you may not take what someone says about your players seriously, but that’s on you.
The problem is, my confidence in Reds front office is so low, that I fully expect them to screw up the trade and get someone that will not end up making the team better.
After all the great trades they’ve made the last couple years, why?
Famously flawed EDLC gets Reds 2 top 50 prospects any time Krall wants to deal.
India switches cus he was lousy defensively at 3B in college. Florida even tried moving him to SS because his glove played that bad at 3B. This is also a kid who was a middle IF in high school. So acting as tho he’s this purely natural 3B is utterly false.
If you can’t play 3b why would the team move him to shortstop? That doesn’t make any sense
Well it happened and it’s reported and that stats back it. I’d presume they figured at the very least he had the athleticism and he went into college as a middle IF.
But the guy had 12 errors in 2 of his 3 seasons there at 3B and 8 the other season that he missed a few games. Mind you they only play 64 games. He simply was not good at 3B and a .930 fld% is pretty bad.
India moved to second base because at the time the6 had well over 100 3rd basemen on the 40 man roster, not because of his inability to play the position..
This one.. I wouldn’t disagree with that at all. I thought McClain was much better at SS, and while I haven’t seen him pla6 there, I’ve heard Marte is the best of the bunch.
cguy… There’s a huge difference between famously flawed and far from polished.
Find me the comment that said he’s a purely natural 3B and I’ll pretend like I care about anything you have to say.
Exactly. Suarez had already locked out Senzel, when they drafted India. So they used two #1’s for 3B in drafts that were being locked out until the injury of Suarez and subsequent trade. Meanwhile Senzel and India were developed into other positions to try to get them in the line-up. They screwed both prospects up in the process. One stays, one goes, unless there is a good trade offer because they have 3B and 2B covered well without them and a ready rotation with the one they keep at DH..
Very misleading, but I’m sure people will enjoy watching Elly flail at any pitches anywhere inside the stadium instead because of that five tool hype.
Bold prediction. Reds ownership in the next decade will pay someone other than Griffey more than 3.7m. You heard it here first.
The Red’s have literally done everything right over the last 2-3 years. Should of cut ties with Moose earlier, but that’s a lot of money to DFA. Nick Krall is one of the best executives in the game. The Red’s are building a powerhouse.
I’m sure your client or your relative appreciates your support.
Most everyone knows everything that happened after June is a failure by the front office to act, pure and simple.
That’s certainly a reasonable assessment to make. There were quite a few Red’s fans I know that were just as upset.
On the other hand, they have an amazing core from which to build upon now, and they have more jn the tank at their upper levels of the minors to continue feeding their perennial contender of a nucleus.
Due to how young they’ll likely be next year, it is certainly plausible they’ll take a minor step backwards next year. More scouts will have more advanced reports out on them, and they’ll have to adjust on the fly. That’s what really separates younger players and younger players that can become true building blocks.
It isn’t an excuse to add to their roster, but they never realistically expected to contend last season. It wasn’t part of their rebuilding plan. I think they should now alter the plan they had, and start to make some calculated moves to surround their young studs with qualified veterans and some clubhouse, veteran leaders strategically placed around their roster.
Even if there is a major youth movement you need leaders like Votto. These guys set the tone for your locker-room, your clubhouse, and they help the manager relay his message to the players. They show the young guys what it takes to he successful every, single day during such a grueling long season.
I think it’ll he a mistake if they don’t continue adding some key vets around their young core, but we will see. Honestly, I don’t have a clue what their plan is for this upcoming season.
Not a failure.
Lodolo was scheduled to come back in Sept. Had he done so and performed to his talent, this is a mute point. Krall is outstanding.
September was much too late. He failed at the deadline big time, but his inaction long before that even lost them the division. Nine games with the Brewers in two weeks with bargain basement pitching going up against legit major league pitchers sealed that. I felt bad for the kids who fought like hell to get where they were only to be let down by their front office. They will remember come contract renewal time. Not to mention the fans who got a big middle finger for their support.
Po Boy has not shown the ability to bring in established major league talent. He is also not too adept at team building. That’s why there was a ton of dumpster diving when things went bad.
That’s why you have too many middle infielders, not enough outfielders, and not enough pitching you can count on. Name one catching prospect.
So they accumulated a lot of good prospects. When you draft in that top position for several years, you should. Scouting and player development did a great job with those guys, both who they had and who they chose to bring in. Probably why the guy who led those areas got promoted to GM.
The rest of the baseball operations last season, not so much.
Marto, the word is moot.
I hate to defend the Reds because they do seem like cheapskates, but trading India makes a lot of baseball logic. Young versatile super-prospects have kicked him out of a job is all.
Reds will not do as well next season. Between getting rid of team leaders and the front office inaction and cheapness while the rest of the league actually tries to improve, it should be of no surprise to anyone.
How many more years will the 33 year drought continue for this once proud franchise?
I very much disagree for numerous reasons, One, the pitching cannot be as injured as it was last season. Two, a ton of rookies not only got valuable experience but also showed they belonged. Three, the offseason just began so maybe slow down on the front office inaction as at this point no front office has made any moves of note. Four, I love Votto and India, but if they are not as talented at this point as the younger guys then you have to move on, you cannot pay Votto 20 million for a farewell tour and if an India trade can help acquire a starter or high end bullpen piece then you have to make that move. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Reds are not or will not try to improve the roster this offseason.
You obviously haven’t been paying attention the past two years.
I watch every game man
While I do tend to agree that the Reds are definitely a force to be reckoned with in the future, next year might be a minor setback. Their rookies and younger guys will now have more advanced scouting reports out on them, and they’ll have to continue making adjustments on the fly in order to stay as effective, not to mention in order to simply improve.
Their offseason will be huge towards deciding their fate next season, but it’s very likely next year could be a minor blip on their way towards being a perennial contender.
It is definitely still a building process and I am not suggesting the team is a world series favorite…but the original comment by the other guy was that the Reds will not do well next season and I just don’t foresee that happening barring major injuries.
That’s certainly reasonable. Honestly, I see them taking a minor stepback next year, and then exploding back onto the scene the following season.
I’ll admit though, I’m certainly not the most knowledgeable person about their offseason plan this year, and what all management is planning to do in order to remain competitive this year.
If they jettison out a bunch of their veterans and key clubhouse guys, and do nothing to replace them, that will only reaffirm my feelings towards them having a setback next year.
I fear that Reds management will conclude that their plan to not spend before last season worked out fine, so let’s do that again this season.
2024 will be a better year for the Reds.
I’m ok w reds not doing as well next season. Why does it have to be next season ? Trade India for young controllable pitchers and develop your own ace (or aces) Greene is looking good ! So does Abbott if he can keep his stamina up.
Then spend all your money on 1 or 2 year deals with bounce back guys, inning eaters and role players bc you already have a yuge core of young controllable talent.
This is how the rays do it. They keep a long term sustainable product and they aren’t in the market for an ACE !! In fact, they are trying to unload there’s so take note
India will be a Mariner by the end of today
Source?
Whatever he just pulled out of his behind.
Nothing drives up the value more than letting everyone know he’s the odd man out.
Everyone knew he was the odd man out. There is probably no one in BB thinking that he is starting over Marte, DLC or McLain.
Doesn’t affect value at all.
I’m surprised Reds fans are upset India is on the block. This is a good young team in need of pitching. Whether it’s cheapness or not, it’s also common sense to trade from their infield surplus to supplement their rotation. Whether you guys like it or not, baseball is a business and the Reds are not as profitable as the big markets. Billionaire owners trading profits for competitiveness is a rarity and shouldn’t be expected. Fortunately, competitiveness isn’t secluded to only big markets as the Rays, Diamondbacks, Brewers, etc have shown.
The young team needs a leader and India is that.
If the jays are filling 3b internally then India isnt a fit but the they bring in a bat for 3b Indian makes sense as he and Schneider share 2b then. I still think jays go from withing for a 3B tho
I would really hate this. India was a good leadoff hitter at the beginning of the season, and then Bell got stupid with the lineup and moved him out of that spot and he struggled, and then he got injured. Move him to DH so the younger, better defenders can play the infield and then use him in the field when 2B/3B need a rest. He’s probably #1 leader on the team with Votto (probably) gone too, so that’s gonna hurt if they trade him as well.
The ONLY way I’d be even remotely ok with trading his is if we get a #1/2 starter in return. Obviously you’d have to include some prospects as well, but most of our infield prospects are blocked now anyway. If Reds trade him for some back end rotation guy that we could fill with a FA signing anyway then I’ll be livid.
Yep. They need an ace, not a back end guy.
I imagine you could find an ace for an infielder. It just wouldn’t be India in the deal……
I don’t understand so many people calling the Reds’ ownership cheap. Since the Castellini’s have become majority owners, they have reached as high as 11th in payroll (2014). In 2019, 2020, and 2021, they ranked 15th, 16th, and 17th, respectively. Post-COVID (and no fan attendance), they cut payroll. Cincinnati is one of the smallest markets in baseball, and the Castellini’s are among (if not) the least rich owners in baseball.
If you study the earnings of the Braves, you’d see how important fan attendance is for team revenue. The Reds weren’t able to sustain that payroll with no fans and sold off many pieces. This year year is a little up in the air due to the whole Bally Sports bankruptcy issue, but I fully expect the Reds will spend some money. Jonathan India’s $3.7m doesn’t have anything to do with him being on the block.
The Reds drew the most last year in many years, over two million fans. So attendance is no excuse any longer.
You’re exactly right. They should spend some money. They shouldn’t spend it foolishly though. They’ll ruin their window if they get locked into a pitcher like Blake Snell for $28m/yr for 6 seasons and then he falls apart. At the best, I could see the Reds having a budget of $130m. Not this season, but in general. I hope they get to around $85-90m for opening day.
Making the playoffs consistently brings in a good chunk of revenue also. That’s why the Rays have been able to put up record payrolls the last few years
Also reds are willing to spend. Stupidly I might add so encouraging them to spend may not be the best course of action.
They gave out the votto, moose, Bailey contracts. The catcher reds drafted and traded turned down the reds for the white sox, pretty sure he’s still making a fortune and there was a pitcher who turned down the reds too who would just be finishing his contract. I think the twins picked him up last season.
Reds will spend. And spend it terribly so as a reds fan – I’d rather see them extend their current roster rather than over pay free agents
Historically, position players from the Reds underperform in their new uniform. I would pass on India all day long.
This is nonsense. Drury, Suarez, Castellanos, Pham, Duvall…hell even Moustakas got better when he left Cincy. OPS+ adjusts for ballpark differences and is an easy comparative tool among others that everyone can use. Winker is the only guy of late that did poorer and that’s a whole other story.
I wonder how Jonathan India’s mortal enemy Jonathan Pakistan feels about this?
How about Ty France?
India is a solid player, but he’s a 3B pretending to play 2B. His best year professionally has been his rookie year, but outside of that he’s been close to what he was last year (this includes his time in minors) His bat is closer to a 2B then a corner IF. He’s something of a tweener.
If the Reds didn’t have a stable of infielders already arrived and more on the way I’d have no issues at all with India, and would openly be for extending him (though I would try to move him back to 3B)
McLain and Elly are likely the only two that would return a 1/2 front end pitcher. both though have higher ceilings then India and have less service time. Remember with Elly that even Mike Trout and Mickey Mantle struggled in their first looks.
Steer plays all over and was a better hitter then India. Again less service time.
CES is probably the bottom of the list because he’s 1B/DH only and his bat is questioned even though all he’s ever done is hit.
Marte has just gotten a look but also hit and is five years younger.
For the Reds to compete they need pitching. If they could get someone like Cease for India plus someone like say Arroyo then I think they need to do it.
Or they could sign a Montegomery or bring Gray back and play a round robin with the IF glut. Injuries happen and this isn’t the worst idea. Depth can be used for trades to fill wholes, but it can also be used as well depth.
When you have this sort of stockpile service time and talent should be the considered.
India has the most service time and is also lower on the talent list as well (if India is your bottom guy you are in good shape this isn’t a slam against him)
Is India a 3B? His arm from the StatCast metrics looks pretty weak and he hasn’t played there in years.
I think the Reds would be better suited to just keep India at least another year and decide on what the left side of their infield should look like with Elly, McClain, Marte and trade one of those 3 to a team that believes in them as SS rather than move them to 2B. You’d have 2 SS capable guys on the left side and Steer to cover some 3B. The easier answer is to just buy pitching in free agency and keep all your young bats, but pitching is pricey even in a market with plenty of it and I don’t know if the Reds are ready to invest money in the roster again. They were willing to at the worst time with the ’20 season affecting them more than most other teams. If you could get a good pre arb pitcher for one of the SS capable guys, I think that’s probably a good way to go. I’m not sure what India gets you compared to McClain or Marte. Of course, my perspective isn’t from a Reds fan one so it might be more of a hopeful one that you are willing to move some of the more intriguing ones.
I’m a Blue Jay fan looking at your group of pre arb bats capable on the left side. The Jays need position players but the free agent pickings are slim. I’m thinking they could buy pitching and then trade from their pitching surplus. Manoah is pre arb but a tough one to determine trade value and probably doesn’t get McClain or Marte on his own. Tiedemann is valuable but not likely to give you 150 major league innings this year, but could thrive in the Reds organization and contribute at some point in ’24. I’m also interested in Steer more as insurance to the internal 3B options the Jays have but with more of an eye on his ability to play the OF too. I just can’t find the right one for one move, but mutli-player trades could be possible too and when talking about swaps of pre-arb players is probably a good idea to diversify your returns.
What do they plan to do with Jonathan Bangladesh tho?
Trading a proven commodity in hopes that their young talent is legit is risky and dumb. The reds are in good fiscal shape with a low payroll and a staff of controllable arms. They just keep spinning their wheels like a hamster
I agree about the risk and it being dumb but reds have actually been successful in targeting and acquiring young talent. Better than identifying proven commodities and keeping their value up and in house.
So keep going young reds ! You failed at everything else over the last 30 years – why not stick to the one thing you have actually done well- identify young talent
India isn’t someone you really want defending for a WS contending team.
I’d rather keep him and hope he has a better season than his Rookie season, and then trade him.
Keep hearing the Reds need SP. They have 6 SP with Petty and Lowder a year or two away. They need these SP’s to stay healthy and Greene to find a 3rd pitch.
If they trade India, hopefully it’s for a minor league pitcher.
I’m not as Gung ho as most to sign FA’s or trade from our surplus infielders. I’d like that Yamamoto SP from Japan, but the Reds can’t throw 200 million at players, let alone one who has never pitched in the majors, let alone GABP.
They need a legit established major league ace, not more suspects. A guy from Japan is suspect too until he pitches in MLB.
Whether that is trade or free agency, that is the only reason to trade from strength, especially with injuries in baseball so rampant.
Agreed. I’m not sure they need starting pitching either considering they have Greene, Ashcraft, Lodolo, Abbott, Williamson, and Phillips with Richardson, Petty, Lowder, and Aguiar all waiting in the wings.
I agree. What they need is for those listed to stay healthy.
Yes and that’s never guaranteed obviously. But I like their depth with all those guys mentioned.
India and Cam Collier could land a pretty good pitcher. I would say that’s what it will take.
It will take India and someone like cam Collier to land someone that can impact the Reds Pitching, starter or reliever, they need a top of the rotation guy.
The Braves will trade any pitching prospect besides Shawver and a couple more lottery tickets for India and Senzel. Hell even some of our potential non-tender candidates are available. Potentially Soroka, Anderson, Winans, Vines, Dodd. With a couple younger prospects also available to add to it.
India and Senzel can make up a platoon. Whichever one is healthiest gets the playing time. India can probably play LF, I mean if Ozuna can play LF then just about anyone can be put out there. See I just cleared 2 spots and money for the Reds. And the Braves can have a new 8 hole hitter that didn’t break the bank. I’m really just kidding about this but I could see the Braves try to patch their LF hole with a trade like this.
If India goes to Atlanta, he’ll become a star because of the MLB media, leading off and setting the table for those guys.
India has no real infield position where he isn’t a potential liability, his power has dropped and is an average contact hitter.
M’s would be crazy to trade a Woo, Hancock or Miller unless the Reds included some prospects or made them eat an unwanted salary – of which Gonzales is a fine backup for the last year of his contract and there’s no way they could get them to take Evan White.
Would say if Reds want one of those long-term under control starters then a Marte or Encarnacion-Strand is fairer, but can’t see they going for it.
Degrade him all you want, even as you seem to want him, but you shouldn’t get an established major leaguer with three years of control left for a suspect.
Then again, I can see Po Boy being stupid enough to do that instead of using his assets for the ace they have so desperately needed for well over a year.
You don’t like Krall. We get it. Take a deep breath, grab a beverage and relax.
haha yeah he is very upset with Krall which is absurd based upon how quickly this team has turned things around…also he really thinks Po Boy is a funny and/or clever nickname because he is really beating that one into the ground
Po Boy
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I love people that create nicknames that no one else knows about, and then uses it repeatedly as if to say “See! I am really clever. How come none of you recognize my cleverness?”
“Reds to Trade India” sounds like a Cold War-era headline about a realignment of strategic priorities
I have a feeling that India doesn’t get traded because maybe the league doesn’t value him as much as the Reds do. Which I am fine with. You could always stick him the OF or at DH too and the Red’s need RH bats.
Also players get injured and some of those super rookie IF’ers are bound to have sophomore slumps too. You can never really have too many guys that can play multiple IF positions.
When did this idea that India was some irreplaceable leader come about? Sure his teammates speak highly of him—he seems like a really good dude and plays hard—but I find his “leadership” to be a bit overstated. Just because he stands on the top step of the dugout and his agent (Boras) has marketed and branded him as a leader (see the 7/29 interview he did with the Enquirer), doesn’t mean he’s an integral part of a championship ballclub (does he notice when his teammate is tipping pitches, understand a competitor’s tendencies, help other guys get out of a slump, etc.?) Frankly, it’s a bit ridiculous to act like a guy going into Arb-1 is a veteran, let alone a “leader.”
I agree 100% and to add to it, the Reds seemed to have numerous guys that could step into a ‘leadership’ role…guys like Friedl, Ty Steve, Benson, Fraley or even young McLain. I have no idea why there is this feeling that India is the only guy that can lead a team and without him the club will sink…if that is the case, if the rest of the team is unable to perform without that leadership from India then the team is weak and destined to fail and I do not believe that to be the case….and I like India but my goodness this message board really really has a high value of him
Yes I agree. They act as if he’s Tony Perez and trading him would be like the 1977 trading of his leadership. Tony was a great leader and still producing enough even if not at his 1969-1974 levels. His leadership was missed. But the pitching in 77 was in the bottom 3 all year. Last for a few months. It was the pitching. After being under appreciated from 1970-76. ERA is the only stat I have available and they were in the Top 5 almost every year. They could out slug you but still won a lot of low scoring games.
Now we have India and his value to the Reds is not as much as other Reds fans. Like Mr I speak for the Reds who posts here constantly will have you believe. They can still afford him and if they need him for depth then fine. They should be looking to deal from a position of strength. There are other leaders on this team. They need pitching and more pitching. Specifically depth. If they can get it for India they should.
Arroyo and Hinds are minor leaguers that come to mind that could also be added to get more.
Obviously you’ve never watched this team.
I referenced an article from a small town newspaper that’s behind a paywall where Jonathan India was the fourth player mentioned—what on earth makes you think I didn’t watch every Reds game this year?
I’m open to being wrong, I just haven’t seen or heard any points other than what Jim Day proselytizes when he has nothing else to talk about in between innings.
Tigers offer Will Vest or Alex Faedo. But not a penny more!
those are real nice vests…cmon give me one………I just want one vest!
When Will finishes his career, if he works for a company that issues employee stock options, he will definitely stick around until the options…you know… 😛
Steve Adams is back at MLBTR hacking it up again. “Meanwhile” can’t come in the middle of a sentence, set off by two commas—it needs to be at the start.