After a brutal 2023 season that saw the White Sox lose 101 games and finish fourth in a weak AL Central division, change is in the air on Chicago’s south side. Newly-minted GM Chris Getz made clear earlier this month that the club is operating with no untouchables on the roster. While there’s plenty of players on the White Sox roster who could garner interest in trade, including center fielder Luis Robert Jr. and DH Eloy Jimenez, perhaps the most discussed among those names is right-hander Dylan Cease, who the club reportedly fielded calls on ahead of this year’s trade deadline.
While no deal came together back then, it’s Cease is certainly still an attractive potential trade candidate for clubs in need of a rotation upgrade. While Cease struggled badly over the last two months of the 2023 as his ERA ballooned to 4.58 on the season, the underlying metrics surrounding Cease’s performance provide more reason for optimism. After all, his 27.3% strikeout rate this season left him tied with Mariners ace Luis Castillo for the eighth-highest figure in the majors this year among qualified starters, just ahead of front-of-the-rotation starters like Gerrit Cole and Zack Wheeler.
While his 10.1% walk rate certainly left something to be desired, Cease’s strand rate of just 69.4% can’t be ignored as a contributing factor to his struggles in 2023. Only four pitchers (Jordan Lyles, Aaron Nola, Lance Lynn, and Miles Mikolas) had a higher percentage of their batters come around to score than Cease this season. If the sequencing of Cease’s baserunners had produced a strand rate more in line with his career mark of 74.6%, it’s reasonable to think Cease would have been far more productive in 2023, and could be in line for better fortunes in 2024.
Even accounting for his difficult 2023 season, Cease has been one of the league’s most impressive starters over the past three seasons. Since the start of the 2021 season, Cease leads all pitchers with 97 games started and clocks in at 15th with 526 2/3 innings of work over that time. Between that volume of work and Cease’s strong production (3.54 ERA, 3.40 FIP), only seven pitchers have produced more fWAR than Cease over the past three seasons: Wheeler, Cole, Nola, Kevin Gausman, Corbin Burnes, Logan Webb, and Sandy Alcantara. In addition to being a part of that elite company, Cease won’t be a free agent until after the 2025 campaign and is projected for a salary of just $8.8MM by MLBTR’s Matt Swartz next season, making him an affordable addition for even small-market clubs looking to add a front-of-the-rotation arm.
Given Cease’s affordability and multiple years of control, he figures to be an attractive alternative to an expensive multi-year deal for a front-end arm like Nola, Blake Snell, or Jordan Montgomery this offseason, particularly for clubs with significant budgetary restrictions. He’s certainly not a fit for every club, however. The A’s, Royals, Angels, Rockies and Nationals are all unlikely to contend during Cease’s remaining window of control, while some up-and-coming clubs like the Marlins, Guardians, Tigers, and Pirates have far more pressing needs on their roster that seem likely to take priority over adding a win-soon, front-end arm like Cease.
The Blue Jays, Mariners, and Brewers, meanwhile, are all teams that contended in 2023 but are much more in need of lineup upgrades than an arm to bolster the rotation, making them likely to pursue upgrades elsewhere. While teams like the Cubs, Twins, and Mets are all decent fits, the unlikelihood of a White Sox blockbuster with a division or crosstown rival (particularly the same one they acquired Cease from in 2017) and the Mets’ uncertain timeline for competitiveness make them less likely to land Cease as well, particularly in what could be such a crowded field of potential suitors. That still leaves 14 clubs that could at least plausibly have considerable interest in Cease’s services this offseason. A look at each of those teams…
Best Fits:
- Braves: The Braves and White Sox have already gotten together on one fairly significant trade this offseason, and could make plenty of sense to do so again. With Kyle Wright out for the 2024 season and subsequently shipped off to Kansas City, the Braves are looking somewhat thin in the rotation with little certainty behind a front three of Max Fried, Spencer Strider, and Charlie Morton. An acquisition of Cease could take pressure off Morton as he enters his age-40 campaign as well as youngsters like Bryce Elder and AJ Smith-Shawver. Meanwhile, young infielder Vaughn Grissom is blocked by Ozzie Albies and Orlando Arcia up the middle in Atlanta but could immediately step into an everyday role at second base for the White Sox in 2024.
- Cardinals: The Cardinals have made it clear they’re on the hunt for starting pitching this offseason, and swinging a deal for Cease could allow them to add a quality arm at a price that wouldn’t take them out of the running for an additional arm in free agency like Nola or Sonny Gray. Meanwhile, the Cardinals have a bevy of big-league ready talent blocked at the major league level they could deal from, ranging from catching prospect Ivan Herrera to reclamation outfielder Dylan Carlson.
- Diamondbacks: The reigning NL champs could certainly do with an upgrade to their rotation in 2024, which features little certainty beyond Zac Gallen and Merrill Kelly. Brandon Pfaadt showed flashes of untapped potential as the club’s third starter throughout the playoffs, but after posting a 5.72 ERA in 19 regular season appearances seems best suited to a back-end role until he can prove himself further. Though the Diamondbacks have shown interest in top-of-the-market NPB ace Yoshinobu Yamamoto, the club has given out just one nine-figure contract in its history. Cease would offer Arizona a far more affordable option to pair with Gallen at the top of the rotation, and could offer a young bat like outfielder Alek Thomas as a potential centerpiece for the deal.
- Dodgers: The Dodgers are in desperate need of rotation reinforcements with sophomore right-hander Bobby Miller and Walker Buehler in his first season post-Tommy John surgery as the club’s most reliable arms for Opening Day 2022. Though the Dodgers are among the league’s most free-spending clubs, their rumored pursuit of Shohei Ohtani and need to fill multiple spots in the starting rotation could make a trade for Cease an attractive option to fill out a spot toward the front of the club’s rotation. Meanwhile, the Dodgers have several young arms that could interest the White Sox as part of a return package, including Ryan Pepiot and Emmet Sheehan.
- Orioles: After a 101-win campaign in 2023, the Orioles figure to be more aggressive this offseason than they have in the recent past, when they’ve largely limited their additions to short-term deals for complementary players like Kyle Gibson and Adam Frazier. That being said, the trade market could be a better route for Baltimore to seek improvements than free agency; after all, club officials have avoided making commitments to substantial payroll increases and the team has a deep crop of big league ready position players who may be best utilized as trade capital, ranging from arb-eligible role players like Ramon Urias to former top prospects like Jordan Westburg. Meanwhile, the addition of Cease would give the club a quality front-end starter to pencil in alongside Grayson Rodriguez and Kyle Bradish for the club’s hypothetical 2024 playoff rotation.
- Rays: The Rays are facing an all-time high payroll in 2024 and are in desperate need of rotation upgrades following long-term injuries to Jeffrey Springs, Drew Rasmussen, and Shane McClanahan in 2023. Cease would be an affordable option the club could bolster their rotation with, giving them additional flexibility to explore trades of right-hander Tyler Glasnow while also potentially clearing some of the club’s positional logjam, where the likes of Curtis Mead could find themselves without much playing time in 2024.
- Reds: The Reds haven’t been shy about their need for starting pitching help this offseason, and Cease makes sense for a club that regularly runs a payroll in the bottom half of the league as a potential impact arm who wouldn’t break the bank. Much like the Orioles, the Reds are deep in young infield options, with second baseman Jonathan India a prime candidate for a trade himself, to say nothing of blocked prospects like Edwin Arroyo.
Next Tier Down:
- Astros: While the Astros could certainly use pitching help this offseason after being forced to rely on rookies like Hunter Brown and JP France for much of the 2023 season, it’s fair to wonder if the club has the appetite for another pitching blockbuster just a few months after swinging a deal with the Mets to bring Justin Verlander back to Houston at the trade deadline earlier this year. What’s more, the Astros are relatively lacking in the young, big league-ready talent that the Sox might look to acquire in a Cease deal.
- Giants: The Giants are certainly in need of rotation upgrades after essentially only using Webb and veteran righty Alex Cobb as regular starting pitchers for most of the 2023 campaign. That being said, the Giants certainly have money to spend after last offseason’s failed bids for Aaron Judge and Carlos Correa. With plenty of holes to fill on the roster, San Francisco may be better suited for an aggressive pursuit of free agent starters than giving up near-term youngsters in a deal for Cease.
- Padres: San Diego’s rumored budgetary issues this offseason are well-documented at this point, and it’s possible the club could need to clear more payroll before taking on even Cease’s relatively modest $8.8MM projected salary. That being said, president of baseball operations AJ Preller is well known for his aggressiveness on the trade market, and a deal for Cease would certainly be more cost-effective than, for example, re-signing Snell to a nine-figure contract.
- Phillies: The Phillies are in need of a top-of-the-rotation arm after the departure of Nola in free agency, but re-signing him appears to be the club’s top priority this offseason. That makes Philadelphia attempting to swing a deal for Cease fairly unlikely, particularly given the club’s relative lack of big-league ready prospect talent with whom they could attempt to make a trade.
- Rangers: The reigning AL champs could certainly stand to upgrade their rotation after losing Montgomery to free agency, but much like their division rivals in Houston, the Rangers just swung a blockbuster to bring Max Scherzer to Arlington this past summer. What’s more, the club may be expecting Jacob deGrom back from Tommy John surgery sometime next year and already has a plausible five-man rotation of Scherzer, Nathan Eovaldi, Jon Gray, Andrew Heaney and Dane Dunning for Opening Day 2024.
- Red Sox: The Red Sox are clearly looking for a front-end starter to add to their rotation, and the clubs famously got together on a blockbuster deal during the 2016-17 offseason that sent Chris Sale to Boston. Despite that history, however, the Red Sox could be better off adding a long-term contract via free agency than spending prospect capital to acquire just two seasons of Cease, particularly given the club’s last-place finish in the AL East this past season.
- Yankees: Much like their archrival Red Sox, the Yankees are clearly in the market for pitching upgrades this offseason. The Yankees are also a club that could certainly benefit from a shorter-term arrangement like the one Cease would provide, given the club’s several megadeals for players like Judge, Cole, Carlos Rodon, and Giancarlo Stanton. That being said, the club is seemingly reluctant to deal young, big league ready talent like Oswald Peraza, though it’s at least feasible a deal could come together surrounding prospects further from the majors like Spencer Jones and Chase Hampton.
Subatomicbunt
Adell for Cease straight up! Let’s go Halos!!
kasey
I say yes ha, need pitching!
User 3044878754
Myles Straw for Cease is being discussed.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Myles Straw for yo mama
Bill nd
You no that how? It’s going to take more than worthless Straw
steelerbravenation
Come on man I really hope you saw the sarcasm in that proposal.
If you didn’t you clearly need help in your social skills and I don’t think comment boards are safe for your health.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Enough of your straw man theories
This one belongs to the Reds
White Sox would laugh you right out of the room.
Big Hurt
I assume the Jo Adell comment is a joke, but if they even want to include him in ANY trade package he will have to prove he isn’t a AAAA guy, which is what he’s shown to be so far. A 4A guy with a ton of prospect juice and tools, but still hasn’t shown he can hit big-league pitching.
Come to think of it, can’t hit big-league pitching? Might fit in perfectly with our Sox!
Gumby82
Giants send Matos, Yaz, Beck & Meckler to White Sox for Cease and Robert
It’s
No way. Not enough.
amk1920
Laughable package. Two major trade assets for a bunch of mid
SupremeBacon
It’s pretty ridiculous to call three rookies who saw limited playing time in their first season “mid.” Matos and Meckler raked in AAA, and Beck was great in the Majors.
But I also agree that this is not enough for BOTH players in this trade.
StusFirstDollar
Mid
Dumpster Divin Theo
Four guys? That’s not even a Bummer!
aussiegiants53
Well yeah alright you got a deal…. Haha not even close,
Poolhalljunkies
You would need both harrison and luciano to get roberts alone…and why would chicago want yaz?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Yaz- Because Hawk would have someone to shuffleboard with him
Joel P
I like the Cardinals as a fit to trade for a starter but not sure it will be Cease. I don’t think the 2 teams match up particularly well. Donovan for Cease 1 for 1 is probably fair but he’s only under control for 4 years I think the Sox need someone for 6 plus. Cardinals have Scott and Saggese but those aren’t guys they will want to trade.
Seamaholic
Winns is probably the more interesting guy. Him or Herrera.
Joel P
Herrera could be had but the White Sox just got Quero from the Angels so I dont know of they want or need him.
Winn not available.
I just don’t think the 2 teams match up. I like Bieber from the Guardians thats who I think makes more sense for the Cardinals.
msqboxer
Cardinal fans think their utility players are something special, everyone knows Donovan is sub par.
cah011381
I’m a Cardinal fan and I agree with this statement. Many seem to think we can turn our trash into #1 starters. I like Donovan, I think he’s a really good player, but he alone isn’t getting us Cease.
robert-5
Donovan is a fine utility player and could probably be a solid 2B or corner OF, but he’s not the kind of player a team like the White Sox would want in return for Cease.
Joel P
Donovan is not a utility player he’s a starter who moves around. Before his injury he was on pace to have a better year than Cease.
What do the White Sox think they can get for 2 years of Cease?
Again I will say it for the 10th time I don’t think the 2 teams match up. Trading for Cease seems like the Ozuna deal all over again.
cah011381
They might want him, but they’re gonna want a lot more with him.
cah011381
Herrera isn’t going anywhere now that they let Knizner go.
CardsFan57
Herrara is the only MLB ready backup catcher since Knizner was non tendered. He won’t be traded.
Armaments216
Herrera win’t be traded and should be getting a lot of the playing time this year behind the plate for the big league team. Donovan alone is not nearly enough to match other teams’ offers for Cease.
ih8tepaperstraws
Dusty Blake helps would help Cease get his ERA up over 5.00. They’d probably try and change him to a sinker baller pitch to contact pitcher too. He’s a bad fit for STL. For Herrera, I don’t think there is much interest in him around the league: I disagree he’ll be the backup this year. He still has an option left, barring injury he’ll spend most of the year in AAA. It doesn’t make sense to sit a 24 year old to sit the bench for 120 games. There are only six week where the team doesn’t have an off day. Contreras’ contract doesn’t sit more than once a week except for those six weeks and using Herrera or Contreras as the DH is a mistake. But then again this organization is clueless and will probably lose 95 games this year so none of it really matters.
Joel P
If someone values him as a starter we could trade Herrera and sign a backup. That could happen.
westcasey
I thinkCease for Donavan 1 for 1 is short. Cardinals need to add, Herrera is good start point. Then Carlson. getting pretty close
Joel P
That’s just too much talent for a guy like Cease. Again I don’t think the Cardinals match up very well with the White Sox.
Joel P
Baltimore I believe will trade for a starter, Cease or someone else. They have middle infielders which I think the White Sox could still use. Perhaps a 3b. What they don’t have is pitching and I think the White Sox will want some pitching back.
guilderc
Cade Povich
Chayce McDermott
Seth Johnson.
They have pitchers,too. They’re ranked in the middle of the pack in Baltimores loaded farm. Each of them would probably be in the 4-8 range of prospect rankings for almost any other team.
Joel P
I don’t know about all that. Those names are decent but not that good. And Baltimore probably wants to keep them anyways.
guilderc
I think Povich would be the target for CWS, but they’d probably “settle” for McDermott or Johnson and leverage it to get better position players.
Baltimore should want to keep them, but their window is open. I feel like they should be making moves for guys like Cease if they’re serious about contending.
Also, I don’t know what Baltimore was thinking by giving up Drew Rom for a struggling Jack Flaherty. Crazy.
Joel P
As a Cardinal fan I wasn’t too impressed with Rom. And Prieto doesn’t look good either. Hopefully that Showalter is decent because the other 2 don’t look too good.
The Orioles have some good position players to trade. They have the depth to make a good offer one way or another. I like them to get Gilbert from Seattle but Cease would he pretty good too.
C Yards Jeff
Seth Johnson isn’t going anywhere. His fastball just isn’t fast, it has movement as well. Same with that Baumler guy.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Everybody wants to give away Seattle’s starting pitchers. Well, Seattle has a use for them too, and especially with Gilbert & Kirby, the offer would have to blow them away.
C Yards Jeff
Do the Sox need a 1st baseman? Mountcastle for Cease straight up. Both are cheap with team control left.
Time to protect Gunnar is now. His hitting is invaluable. Save his legs on that 6’4″ frame of his by moving him to 1b. Who plays SS? Take your pick. Mateo is resigned, Ortiz chomping at the bit and/or Holiday the anointed one in 2024?
hyraxwithaflamethrower
They have Vaughn at 1B. For whatever reason, they still see a bunch of potential in him, so they’re not seeking a 1B unless they trade him.
Big Hurt
Yeah- the Sox should definitely be worried about Gunnar’s legs and make a terrible trade to help the Os out. These comments are amazing. Mountcastle is worth 13.6 on trade simulator, Cade Povich 5, Seth Johnson 2, Chayce McDermott 0… and Dylan Cease 46. I’m not saying that site is perfect, but come on, if the Orioles want Cease they will have to start with Westburg, and then add.
C Yards Jeff
Hey Bug Hurt, wtf is a trade simulator? 2nd question. Do GMs use it?
Now if it takes more than Mountcastle to get Cease, well alrighty then. The REAL GMs know. Grateful to be on a site where it’s ok to play amateur GM. Cheers!
Joel P
Mountcastle for Cease? Uh no
Bruin1012
Joel P I see all these people saying they want one of Seattle’s starters or that they expect a team to get one of their starters. Then when you bring up realistic players to get one of those guys like I expect Baltimore would have to trade Henderson or Boston would have to trade Casas, Verdugo, and decent prospect everyone’s like no way. The Mariners aren’t trading those guys for anything less then a guy, as a headliner, that’s already proved he can hit thus guys like Henderson or Casas plus. They aren’t trading them for prospects it’s just not happening.
Joel P
Hjerstad is a really exciting young player who the Mariners could use. Him for Gilbert makes a lot of sense. Perhaps add a little bit but he’s gonna be good. He can play outfield and 1b and those are team needs for the Mariners. I think he’s better than Casas.
Big Hurt
Yeah, odd ‘angry guy’ reply. Trade simulator type sites are websites that help take the moron homer-ism out of GM-wannabees by utilizing, you know, data. We all overvalue our guys, I get it. If I were an Os fan I would love to send a decent-hitting 1b/DH type who can’t field to the White Sox for the guy who came in 2nd in Cy Young voting last year, of course. But if you took 10 seconds to look at the Sox roster, you know, like an actual GM would do, you’d see that the Sox have about 5 of those guys already and wouldn’t give up their 5th starter for ANOTHER one.
Bruin1012
Joel the point I’m making is the Mariners aren’t trading Kirby or Gilbert and Hjerstad is just a prospect at this point. The Mariners are going to want proven young hitters and if it’s Kirby or Gilbert then elite young hitters.
Im most familiar with the Red Sox farm system and their players. Whenever in some Red Sox article they bring up Kirby or Gilbert I bring up the Casas, Verdugo, and a quality prospect and everyone says that’s way too much. That’s the kind of return it’s going to take and that might not even be enough. The Orioles have a lot of prospects but I just can’t see the Mariners trading Kirby or Gilbert for anything short of already proven young offensive impact talent such as Gunnar.
Joel P
Hjerstad is ready to play. He’s going to be a stud. Again he’s better than Casas wait and see.
The Orioles aren’t trading Henderson that’s ridiculous.
The fact is the Mariners have 1 playoff appearance in the last 20 years. What the Mariners are doing isn’t working. They need to try something different.
Bruin1012
I’m just telling you what it will take Joel realistically and I guess it’s possible that Hjerstad is better then Casas, doubt it offensively, but the fact is Casas was one of the best hitters in baseball in the second half of the season. He just got better as the year went he’s already a monster at the plate and the kind of young asset a team would want as a centerpiece. He would fit in as protection for Julio for the next 5 years we simply only surmise that Hjerstad will be good but Casas has already hit and looked like a 10 year veteran in his at bats the longer the season went on he’s legit.
Joel P
Casas had a good second half that doesn’t mean he’s arrived and is the next great 1b. And Hjerstad can play both right field and 1b which is a better fit for the Mariners. Are the Red Sox actually going to trade Casas? Of course not so who cares? I was using an example of a guy who is available possibly. I am sure the Orioles want to keep him but for a guy like Gilbert I think it makes sense for both teams.
C Yards Jeff
Hey Bug Hurt, you seem upset. My apologies if I hurt your feelings. Thought “Big Hurt” moniker was a reference to Frank Thomas not your ego.
Big Hurt
C Yards Jeff, you’re an odd dude. Later.
Bruin1012
The Orioles are better off going after Cease. Kjerstad would be a good starting point there the Orioles will have to sweeten the pot of course. Kjerstad isn’t even close to enough for Gilbert. Just spitballing here but if the Mariners like these guys I could see Kjerstadt, Mayo, and another decent piece 10-15 range close to the bigs for Gilbert. That seems about right to me. I’m not sure that Seattle would even do that.
StusFirstDollar
Baltimore going to sit on its hands and grab another Jack Flaherty
pqskgt
Pepiot was dealing at the end of last year. Not sure if I’d trade him straight up for Cease
JerseyShoreScore
I would not, Cease has a great strikeout rate, but if you look at his seasons, 2022 is an outlier and the only great season that he has had. His ERA in most seasons is near or above 4.00, his WHIP numbers are average to below average. Just two more seasons of control versus six seasons of control, a few of which will be low salaries for Pepiot. I think one or both of Pepiot and Sheehan can put up similar WHIP, ERA, and Strikeout numbers as Cease, with less certainty, but good upside too. I would not be surprised if one of Miller, Sheehan, and Pepiot have a better year and career than Cease. I would not overpay in a trade for Cease. If I am the Dodgers, I’d just pay a bit more in cash/salary to overpay one of the free agent arms.
filihok
JSS
You understand that WHIP and ERA are terrble stats for measuring pitcher performance
Both are subject to a lot of factors besides how well the pitcher pitched.
Defense is the big one. A pitcher pitching with a bunch of MLBTR readers as their defense is going to have a worse WHIP and ERA than if they are pitching in front of a bunch of gold glovers. ERA and WHIP measure what the team did, not what the pitcher did.
Jean Matrac
I have to disagree that WHIP reflects what the team did. Giving up walks and hits is squarely on the pitcher, other than the marginal effect of hits from poor defense.
Seamaholic
It’s actually not marginal at all. Even walks tend to go up with bad defense, because pitchers are trying to strike everyone out. Hits obviously go up.
ERA is worse than WHIP because a chunk of your runs allowed came after you left the game. Difference between a 4 and 4.5 ERA isn’t all that many runs.
filihok
JM
“I have to disagree that WHIP reflects what the team did. Giving up walks and hits is squarely on the pitcher,”
You’re wrong
The difference between the best and worst defender is something like 20 runs per season. How many hits do you think that is?
Jean Matrac
20 runs per season spread over the league average IP of 1,436. How many hits do you think that is? The effect on WHIP is marginal.
Jean Matrac
I didn’t say anything about ERA.
It’s undeniable that every pitcher does better with good defense behind him. But, if a pitcher is trying to strike guys out because he’s fearful of his defense letting him down, but is unable to, then that pitcher isn’t as good as the one that can in the same situation. That would make WHIP a viable stat in the comparative aspect.
filihok
JM
“The effect on WHIP is marginal.”
No, it’s not
There, I’ve countered your argument with as much evidence that you’ve supported it with
Jean Matrac
You’re so obvious. Quote me in my generalized summation, but ignore the numbers.
“The difference between the best and worst defender is something like 20 runs per season. How many hits do you think that is?”
So how many is it? That’s no evidence to support your opinion.
And, you just saying anyone is “wrong” is as arrogant as it is factually hollow.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
I see your reasoning and would love if the Sox got Pepiot for Cease, but the argument for the deal is Cease has proven CYA contender potential, despite his control issues. Pepiot is unproven still. Teams will look at Cease’s slider and raw stuff and see if they can find a tweak in his pitch mechanics or pitch usage that can unlock something close to 2022 Cease. At the very least, Cease is undeniably durable.
stymeedone
Durable? He seldom gets past the 6th inning. He makes his starts, but he’s far from a workhorse.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
That’s an issue of far too many walks more than durability.
Baseball Babe
Pepiot, Sheehan, Outman and a big international arm for Acuna.
Datashark
Braves would for sure make that move with James Acuna – if they hadn’t released him already
NashvilleJeff
Yeah, call the Mutts. Stearn would probably let you have Luisangel Acuna for that offer.
deepfryar
I would have put the Padres in the top tier, their projected 2024 payroll is down to 188 MM leaving 13 MM of current space with the 50 MM reduction. Preller can also sign say for example Kim and Soto to long term deals that are backload significantly to open up maybe up to another 15 MM. Also trading the oft weak at the plate Grisham for prospects saves another couple of MM. The quote unquote documented financial woes is mostly just a product of writers needing to write a using AAV numbers instead of actual numbers…
Roll
the 188 is only for guaranteed contracts on current roster and arbitration but there are other things to include for luxury tax. such as the 13M owed to hosmer the player benefits at 17M … the 2M for arbitration bonus pool etc etc they are estimated at 242 so they are already passed the first tax zone even with taking barlow off it.
fan graphs breaks it down. and adds in all the other pieces including the estimated arbitration.
deepfryar
The issue is not the luxury tax, it’s the actual paid payroll for 2024!!!
elmedius
They also sadly, recently lost a highly motivated owner… might want to expect a regression to more average and less aggressive payrolls. Could be wrong, but that’s what happened with the Tigers.
Roll
lets do some math for the actual salaries and estimated arb payroll for 2024 … they are at 170M (130 guaranteed 40 arbitration) add in hosmer at 13 you are now at 183 that just basic player contracts and not filling the other 25 people not on the 40 man / 11 people for the active roster.
so now lets just fill the 40 man roster with minimum salary which is a shade under 750k and not invest in free agent salary. 25 * 750k which is 19M which pushes actual paid payroll for 2024!!!! to 203 and if their last year payroll which was 255 and they are dropping it by 50M … that is 205 …. 205 – 203 that leaves 2 million for actual paid payroll for 2024!!!”
Thats also not including the taxes that will have to be paid for being over the taxes cap which is roughly 30M from tati and machado alone that 2M is most likely gone. with no changes to the lineup and just filling roster. and they are at the new budget of ACTUAL PAID PAYROLL FOR 2024!!!.
sooo about that 13M
deepfryar
The Padres spend money based on being the only major male athletics team in San Diego, not one owner. The Tigers compete directly with the Lions, Pistons, and Redwings for ticket sales and TV ratings. again there is so much writer speculation without concrete evidence regarding the Padres. What we do actually know is that the Diamond group stiffed the Padres and impacted their short term cash flow, not their ability to turn revenue!
deepfryar
What you are not doing is comparing those numbers to 2023;)
Roll
“What you are not doing is comparing those numbers to 2023”
i am comparing those numbers to 2023 .. you said actual salaries and below link will break it down for you. 190ish for actual contracts 65 ish for arbitration and the money they shipped out vs non roster was about even.
fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/padres?seaso…
and your numbers btw
“188 MM leaving 13 MM of current space with the 50 MM reduction”
188 add in 13 is 201 then add in another 50 is 251 … so by your numbers they are even in a worse hole that what the actual numbers are. They would be about a million under before adjusting for the taxes.
Seamaholic
That’s not relevant at all. Other sports aren’t even playing for much of baseball season. Baseball and football fan bases don’t overlap much. Padres revenue sources are pretty well known — gate, TV, and national MLB payouts. It’s I’d say fairly well established that they ran in the red last year. In fact I think Seidler said as much.
Simm
I’ll list for you the padres 2024 payroll not tax number.
Xander 25.5m
Mustgrove 20m
Manny 17m
Darvish 16m
Tatis 11.7m
Suarez 10m
Cronenworth 7.3m
Kim 7m
Carp 5.5m
Hosmer 12.2m.
That’s a 132.2m
Arb guys estimates
Morejon 900k
Santos 1m
Soto 33m
Grisham 4.5m
That’s an additional 39.4m
Total of 171.6m. This is how much the padres 2024 payroll is currently without adding in tax or min salaries. That’s 14 players. You don’t pay league min to all 40 players on the 40 man roster. They either have to have a mlb deal in the minors or be called up to the team. Padres currently don’t have anyone that would be in the minors on a mlb deal. So add an addition 12 players to the 26m roster.
12 x 750k = 9m more.
9m + 171.6m= 180.6m. Spotac has it at 176m because they have the arb numbers being less and they might be. This is where the padres currently stand without paying for player benefits or any tax penalties. There is a good chance they will pay a tax again this year if they keep Soto. Have to wait and see on that number. Benefits are going to be around 15-17m. Though I don’t know if they count that towards the payroll budget or not but it will need to be paid.
Padres are likely to move Grisham in a trade by the start of the year freeing up another 4-5m.
Cease is a perfect guy for the padres to trade for. You can easily fit in his 8m into the budget. That’s even if their budget is 200m.
Padres have plenty of prospects to get this deal done.
Roll
@simm
I may have been wrong but i read in more than one article that 40 man roster is league minimum but either way lets assume the 26. Are you assuming no one will be injured as both your current starters are coming off injuries and have injury track records with one being older. The average i believe is 33 so we can split that difference and bump it to atleast 13 or 14 milion then probably another mil or 2 for the remainder of the 7 for the 40 man.
There is atleast one mlb player on the minor league deal non 40 man roster in Tyler wade dont know the rest of the team but for some reason i like Wade he just one of those guys that will never be great maybe not even league average but always does whatever the team needs of him like a giullorme or tejada. There could be more but dont know their system well enough.
Also i believe they use 17 million as the estimated for everyone for tax purposes with a 500k increase each season otherwise they can skate on the expenses like food or travel or put them in a hostel which im sure loria would have done for the marlins but dont quote me on that
Trading grisham for salary relief is probably going to mean a dropoff as well. Again i dont know their system that well but i dont recall hearing a better replacement that is cheaper on the team even if you move Tatis to center and replace a corner OF, but correct me if i am wrong. I like Wade but Grisham is far better. I guess they could try the yankee method and just keep throwing bodies and hope something sticks but that would probably cost more in the end just on minimum league contracts.
If they trade for cease its a drop off from snell no matter how you look at it and now a drop off from grisham. This also doesnt include having to replace lugo and wacha and are you counting on Campusano to play a full season? he doesnt even have a full season worth of games.at the big show under his belt in 4 years. Personally i think if they want to have even a similar team with this new budget to last year Soto has to get traded just from a salary perspective. Wayy too many holes to fix which prospect potentially can fill and money to spend to fill.
Simm
I doubt they keep payroll at 200m. If they do then they will have to make a number of trades. Possibly including Soto. They could trade for a pre-arb pitcher or two.
Grisham hasn’t hit over .200 in two straight years his only value is on defense. They could just use marsee there if they wanted to and it wouldn’t be much worse. They also if they don’t trade merrill could stick him in right and move Tatis to center.
I think they will try and dump carpenter in a trade as well. Obviously he has negative value.
It will be interesting to see what they do but keeping Soto they will most likely need to have payroll be at least 210-220 to fill all the pitching holes.
They prob will add another catcher but could go with Sullivan as the backup. He played a number of games for them last year. Padres fans would like to see Sanchez back who may not cost all that much.
Probably need a pen arm or two still as well.
I believe they will make some moves and field a contending team next year.
Simm
Players on the 26 man roster are paid according to their contract. The other 14 players earn a prorated portion of the major league minimum when they are with the major league team.
Roll
the marsee name isnt familar to me is he a defensive first of or does he have a bat?
i thought merrill was a SS are they going to put another SS as a regular? … geez they already have the infield with shorts stops and right field. they just would need one more for the other corner assuming Tatis moves to center. and just make the entire team shortstops.
deepfryar
Thank you Simm, i don’t have the energy to teach Roll how to read and add!!!!
deepfryar
um
what… all sports compete for ticket sales in a region! if you lived in SD you would know that the Padres started spending big money right after the *ucking Chargers bailed to LA!
Wire to wire 2024
Get it done reds!
iml12
Dipping below that luxury tax every once and while is a big deal. If they are cutting payroll, I can almost guarantee their goal is to get below the luxury tax threshold.
earmbrister
Arroyo and India for a year of Cease?
earmbrister
Correction, two years
filihok
JP
” Donovan for Cease 1 for 1 is probably fair”
Per BTV
Cease’s trade value = $45 million
Donovan’s trade value = $27 million
More than halfway there, so, certainly not the worst attempt I’ve seen. But, no, not really fair
Scott’s trade value $15 million
Saggese’s trade value = 8 million
TOTAL – $23 million
Maybe Scott, Saggese AND Donovan
Joel P
Cease I don’t think has 45 million in surplus value. He might but he’s coming off a so so year. He’s roughly going to make 20 million in arbitration the next 2 years at least. I wouldn’t pay 65 million for 2 years of Cease you could sign Gray for a lot less than that. Who I think is a target of the Cardinals since he grew up 5 hours from St Louis.
Trade values isn’t the be all end all of values. They had Cease at 25 or 30 million a few weeks ago I know I looked it up. They changed his value for reasons I don’t really understand.
Scott and Saggese simply won’t be dealt. Again I don’t think the Cardinals have what the White Sox want and need.
filihok
JP
“Cease I don’t think has 45 million in surplus value. He might but he’s coming off a so so year. ”
per BTV
Cease is expected to produce $67 million on the field. At $8 million per WAR that’s just over 8 WAR between the two seasons. Or, about 4 WAR per season.
HIs last 3 seasons he has put up 4.5, 4.4 and 3..7 fWAR
4 WAR per season seems quite reasonable.
Joel P
I think paying 8 million per win is not ideal. Again Sonny Gray isn’t going to cost nearly that much annually. Heck Yamamoto and Snell won’t cost that much annually. There are maybe 5 pitchers in all of baseball making that much or more.
Seamaholic
Yeah I tend to agree with this. How much teams pay per WAR is highly variable, and of course they all have their own WAR-like calculations that may be very different from the public ones.
ih8tepaperstraws
Scotts only skill is speed. He far from untouchable. He’s just another iteration of Nootbaar, Carlson, Edmon, Piscotty, etc.. Cardinals pump out those barely replacement level players. Scott made the futures game as a gimmick. Nothing more than the next Billy Hamilton and we saw how bad he ended up being.
Joel P
Scott will instantly be the fastest guy in baseball when he gets called up. And he’s not just a 1 trick pony he can play defense. He can hit. Scott is going to be a good player.
gbs42
BTV is a crude tool, and I can’t imagine teams use it to balance trades.
filihok
gbs
“BTV is a crude tool, and I can’t imagine teams use it to balance trades.”
No one said that teams are using it
But they are almost certainly using something like it, but with their own valuations
What teams aren’t doing is what most of the commenters here are doing, just pulling stuff out of their [behinds].
And BTV”s accuracy can’t be denied.
FrankEttingChiSox
Free agents are nearly always overpays. I see no chance that Gray or Snell come in at any less than $20m per season and probably not less than $25m on a shorter term deal. Cease is younger too. Age is not just a number.
gbs42
I deny BTV’s accuracy.
gbs42
Frank, why would Gray or Snell ever settle for less than $20M per season? Taillon and Walker got $17M-$18M last offseason and aren’t nearly as good.
FrankEttingChiSox
Of course they wouldn’t. I said that was an absolute floor. And, of course, Snell is probably in better position to make big demands than Gray.
gbs42
$20M would be more like sub-basement for those two.
filihok
gbs
“gbs4242 mins ago
I deny BTV’s accuracy.”
Sure. But your unsupported opinion literally doesn’t matter
filihok
FECS
“Free agents are nearly always overpays.”
Support your statement with evidence
/broken record
gbs42
filihoiok,
Neither does yours. BTV is a solid ballpark estimate, but the error bars are large.
filihok
gbs
“Neither does yours. ”
Correct. Unsupported opinions do not have value
Now, what opinion do you think that I have put forth?
gbs42
“BTV’s accuracy can’t be denied.”
Astrosfn1979
BTV is pretty good for determining MLB players because their years of control, projected salary, and projected performance are easily determined and put into an algorithm.
Prospect value is where it gets tricky because projecting prospect time frame’s, roles, and performance is much more uncertain.
filihok
Afn
“BTV is pretty good for determining MLB players because their years of control, projected salary, and projected performance are easily determined and put into an algorithm.
Prospect value is where it gets tricky because projecting prospect time frame’s, roles, and performance is much more uncertain.”
Sure
filihok
gbs
““BTV’s accuracy can’t be denied.””
It can’t be denied
What are you talking about?
gbs42
Then prove it’s accuracy. It’s a reasonable estimate with big error bars, just like any projection tool.
filihok
gbs
“It’s a reasonable estimate”
Glad that we agree
gbs42
You’re quoting values above like they’re gospel without acknowledging the variability of those numbers. We agree to a limited extent, and if you think that means you win the argument, well, good for you.
filihok
gbs
“You’re quoting values above like they’re gospel ”
I’m not doing that at all. Give me an example of my doing that.
I’m stating that those are the values calculated by BTV
gbs42
You quoted their values for Cease, Donovan, Scott, and Saggase, using those numbers to create a balanced trade. Either you believe in them or your attempt to use them in an argument is pointless. Which one is it?
filihok
gbs
“You quoted their values for Cease, Donovan, Scott, and Saggase, using those numbers to create a balanced trade. Either you believe in them or your attempt to use them in an argument is pointless. Which one is it?”
As we just agreed,
“It’s a reasonable estimate”
If you want to be an argumentative [person], I’ll mute you and forget that you exist.
gbs42
And if you want to be the same and ignore the part where I said “with big error bars,” I will gladly respond in kind.
filihok
gbs
“And if you want to be the same and ignore the part where I said “with big error bars,””
That’s not a problem with BTV
That’s a problem with predicting the future. It’s perfectly reasonable to have different expectations for different players
zack novotny
I’d say
White Sox get: Tommy Troy, Druw Jones, Dylan Ray, McCarthy, Ryne Nelson and Fletcher.
Dbacks gets Cease and Robert
filihok
zn
Per BTV
Cease $45 million
Robert $85 million
TOTAL $130 million
Troy $21 million
Jones $21 million
Ray $5 million
McCarthy $15 million
Nelson $16 million
Fletcher $6 million
TOTAL $82 million
A difference of nearly $50 million. I’m going to guess that that’s a pass by the White Sox.
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
Dbacks add Strega Nona. Trade happens.
zack novotny
I think valuing players like that is definitely not the best. The signing bonus for Troy and Druw has already been paid so there is no money at all there. Cease did not have a good year either and only have one year left. I rarely see anyone grade trades just by assigning the $ worth of each player. It’s not that simple, and that’s why money ball didn’t work either. Getting a combined 30 years of mlb minimum salary compared to cease and Robert for less than 5 at a high salary. I think that dbacks would already be paying a high price. Also who is Strega Nona. Confused by that.
Seamaholic
For Cease and Robert — basically the Sox only two elite players each with TONS of marginal value (Robert is a top twenty most valuable player in the game I’d guess) — you have to include Lawlar.
Champ world champion Texas Rangers
Rangers have said and Bochy especially said having Dane Dunning and Andrew Heaney in the bullpen works way better I could see the Rangers getting two more starters. Montgomery could be one. Dylan Cease Corbin Burnes Shane Bieber.
filihok
Dodgers could use some Dylan Cease
As noted above, BTV has his trade value at $45 million
Major league ready players on the Dodgers
Pages $19 million
Vargas $18 million
Busch $16 million
Sheehan $20 million
Stone $13 million
Knack $10 million
Grove $7 million
Maybe something like Busch, Sheehan and Knack? I’d do that
Pepiot is the guy I’d try to hold on to if I’m LA (given my much lesser knowledge)
Joel P
The Dodgers prospects, if you want to call them that, are rather overrated. Busch is how old? The Dodgers have talent to trade and I think the teams could find a match but again overrated.
filihok
JP
“The Dodgers prospects, if you want to call them that, are rather overrated. ”
yawn
Present your evidence that the Dodger prospects are overrated.
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
I would compare your btv assessment of Arizona prospects to dodger prospects as evidence.
Grove is more valuable than fletcher??? Fudge outta here
Joel P
Again I think the Dodgers do have what the White Sox want which is a lot of players that may or may not make it. Most teams wouldn’t want a 4 for 1 or a 5 for 1 and even though the Sox just did a deal like that they could do another.
I think Cease is overrated at 45 million so I guess it would balance out. But Busch is really overrated.
filihok
JF
“Grove is more valuable than fletcher??? Fudge outta here”
Yawn
Provide evidence to support your assertion
filihok
JP
Again
Provide some evidence
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
Yawn
Grove pitched like dog dump at the major league level. Fletcher played well at the major league level. There, very simple evidence.
Where’s your evidence? Btv isn’t evidence.
Joel P
I don’t know what Fletchers value is now but I think he was underrated last time I checked. He was at 7 million maybe?
filihok
JF
“Grove pitched like dog dump at the major league level. Fletcher played well at the major league level. There, very simple evidence.
Where’s your evidence? Btv isn’t evidence.”
Hoo boy
That’s a heck of a lot of wrong packed into such a short comment
1) Grove pitched like dog dump at the major league level.
Why do you believe that? Because ERA? He had a better than average K% and a better than average BB%. Those are far more telling, especially in a small sample than ERA.
2) Grove pitched like dog dump at the major league level. Fletcher played well at the major league level.
Grove had 69 innings. Fletcher had just over 100 PA’s. One would have to be very unknowledgeable about baseball to think that the first few innings and plate appearances of a players career are very telling of how their careers are going to go.
3) There, very simple evidence.
Simple thinking for simple minded people
4) Btv isn’t evidence.
BTV is absolutely evidence.
You’re about one comment from being ignored. You certainly don’t seem like the kind of person who will ever post anything that it would benefit me to read.
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
Oh no. One comment away from being ignored. You still haven’t proven why grove is worth more than Fletcher. Maybe look at his statcast numbers.
Yawn
filihok
JF
Muted
Astrosfn1979
“I think Cease is overrated at 45 million.”
How so?
Do you think that 8 WAR is an unrealistic projection for his next 2 years?
Do you think that he will end up getting more than $21M in arbitration salary the next 2 years?
Do you disagree with the general acceptance of $8M being the value of 1 WAR?
If we know which area of the determined value you disagree with we will know how best to interact with you in the future.
Joel P
Who is we?
8 million a win is nonsense. It takes into account all the failed signings. It’s an average. You don’t get ahead by handing out 8 million per win.
stymeedone
@joelp
What’s more important to a team if a player is under 30? His actual age or his years of control? A late bloomer who debuts at 27 is under control thru his prime, 27-33. A fast tracker arrives at 22, is under control for 22-28. That means decision making during the prime years. Do you trade before he gets expensive or tie up future money taking a long term risk beyond prime years? I don’t mind a late bloomer because its a much easier signing decision at the end of control. You already got the best years.
Joel P
I don’t think the Dodgers prospects are necessarily late bloomers. Yes I understand what you are saying but the upside you get with other prospects doesn’t exist with a 26 year old like Busch or most of their other prospects.
Joel P
Michael Busch just turned 26. He had a good year at AAA but he repeated the level and had no success in the majors.
Sheehan good year at AA then didn’t pitch well at AAA or in the bigs.
They are old. All the Dodgers prospects are older than you would think. Maddux Bruns isn’t overrated.
You are a Dodgers fan I take it.
filihok
JP
None of that is remotely close to being evidence that the Dodgers prospects are overrated.
Dunning-Kruger in effect.
Someone who thinks something without evidence, won’t know what qualifies as evidence.
Joel P
Dude I could go to trade values and pick all the overrated Cardinals and suggest that as a deal for Cease but I don’t want to do that.
They just changed many of their values recently. Most I believe are fair changes but Cease at 45 million sounds like too much to me.
The White Sox need major league ready players with lots of team control left. The Dodgers have a lot of those type of guys I think the fit is there.
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
It’s like raaaaaaiiiinnn on your wedding day!
filihok
JP
Please provide EVIDENCE that those players are overrated.
You thinking that they are overrated is NOT evidence.
You learned (or should have) what constitutes evidence in middle or high school.
If you disagree with BTV”s assessment, that’s one think, but is completely different than those players being overrated.
If you need me to explain that difference, I will. Hopefully I don’t need to.
Joel P
Baseball trade values isn’t factual. It’s something to go off of but it’s not fact.
filihok
JP
“Baseball trade values isn’t factual. It’s something to go off of but it’s not fact.”
Correct
Which is why I said
“If you disagree with BTV”s assessment, that’s one think, but is completely different than those players being overrated.”
Note: This does not, in any way, mean that your opinion is as valuable as the opinion of BTV. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that.
Joel P
I think trade values and mlb.com both overrate Dodgers prospects.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@JohnFisher I hope you are properly chastised and shamed now that filihok has muted you. If that won’t teach you a lesson, I don’t know what will. =<)
filihok
JP
“I think trade values and mlb.com both overrate Dodgers prospects.”
Yawn
Such a boring conversation
WHY do you believe that?
And me try and save some time. That some Dodgers prospects haven’t panned out isn’t evidence.
Do you understand why?
No, you probably don’t
That’s not evidence because prospects from all organizations don’t pan out.
To say that Dodger prospects are operated, you’d have to show that Dodger prospects consistently under perform their ranking more often than prospects from other teams
Can you do so?
Let’s save some more time
No. You can’t. You definitely have never done that analysis
So, when you say this
“I think trade values and mlb.com both overrate Dodgers prospects.”
It’s nothing. Meaningless.
JohnFisher’s$1BlumpkinSpecial
@ignorant. Honestly, I’m distraught. I’ve learned my lesson. Now I can only read his infinite knowledge but not speak with him. Must be how the pope feels.
Roll
Fill
Provide some evidence that Cease is worth 45M unless you also agree Baty is also worth 20M (which is worth more than Aaron Judge btw) and Megill around 10.
filihok
Roll
Do you have the slighest idea how trade value is calculated.
Of course a player who was just a free agent (Judge) is going to have a small trade value – they just singed something that is likely to be a market rate deal.
Cease, being in arbitration, is going to have a below market value deal
You do understand that, right? Right? I think I’m wrong. I don’t think that you understand that.
Judge is expected to produce for than Cease on the field. But, since he’s paid more, his value is less.
It’s a fairly simple concept.
Roll
Again
Provide some evidence Cease is worth 45M surplus value
Do you have the slighest idea how trade value is calculated on that site? I assume you do because you asked me. It is what their expected worth is versus what they are getting paid and the trade value is that difference.
Using Urias from the dodgers as a base . he at the time was equivalent if not better pitcher but made 8M his 3rd time and 14M final time through amounting to 22M (and their estimate too) …then saying Cease is worth 45M in surplus that would make him at 67M value over 2 years. Are you sayin Cease is worth nearly 35M a year?
I think that is a bit of a reach personally. He would have to go back to his cy young season and not his career norms which he was at last year. Is he a good pitcher yes but betting that all his other seasons including last season were outliers and not the norm seems a bit much.
Seamaholic
I mean he laid out the math, which isn’t hard. At 4 wins a year at $8m a win, that’s $32m a year on the open market. I personally think $8m per WAR is cray-cray. It should be more like $5m or $6m. It gets inflated because public WAR figures are not what teams actually work from (they have their own), and tend to be significantly overestimated.
Roll
but outside of his cy young run which seems like an outlier he barely hits 3.
curious looking at the 2022 white sox Kopesch doubled his other years and Cueto hit 3.5 WAR that year and thats more in one year than every year combined but that back to 2018 … what were they feeding the white sox pitchers that year. They need to get back whatever they did that year.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Something that can’t be detected on a drug test. And much depends on which drug test you are administering… there are so many analogues to banned substances out there that don’t show up as a positive. And new ones being created every day that can skirt the latest tests. One could say it’s nearly a futile situation.
filihok
Seamaholic
“I personally think $8m per WAR is cray-cray. It should be more like $5m or $6m. It gets inflated because public WAR figures are not what teams actually work from (they have their own), and tend to be significantly overestimated.”
Why do you think that?
I mean, of course teams do their own evaluations, they aren’t just reading fangraphs and making decisions off of that.
But the proof is in the pudding.
WAR and $8 million per WAR very closely models they way players are paid and BTV’s values very accurately match real life trades.
Both are certainly much more accurate than what the vast majority of commenters here suggest. Which – isn’t saying much, for sure,
filihok
Roll
“Provide some evidence Cease is worth 45M surplus value”
I just did
But, again
His last three seasons have, on average, been above 4 fWAR
4 WAR is worth approximately $32 million.
Expecting him to continue what he has done the previous 3 years seems reasonable.
JoeBrady
Sometimes things are simpler than they appear.
IMO, Cease is a strong favorite to deliver about 8 bWAR over the next two years, and then receive a QO.
If you want Cease, then you have to give back at least 8 WAR. The further away from the majors your projected WAR is, the more it gets risk discounted.
Remember too that the WS will not (hopefully) be taking guys with more than one year of service time.
filihok
JB
“Cease is a strong favorite to deliver about 8 bWAR over the next two years, and then receive a QO.”
Agreed
“If you want Cease, then you have to give back at least 8 WAR. The further away from the majors your projected WAR is, the more it gets risk discounted.”
Mostly agreed. You have to factor in the salary that you’re taking on. So, 8 WAR at $8 million per year is $64 million. He’ll be paid around 9 million this year, and $12-$15 next year. So, that’s (($64-($9+12))÷8) 5.5ish WAR they should expect back.
Simm
The problem is let’s say he is good for 4 war and war is worth 8m per. If cease was a free agent right now nobody would give him 32m a year. So the value is what someone is willing to pay. Also would make Ohtani worth what 70-80m per season. Nobody would pay that either.
filihok
Simm
“The problem is let’s say he is good for 4 war and war is worth 8m per. If cease was a free agent right now nobody would give him 32m a year.”
For two years? I bet they would.
See Trevor Bauer
Simm
Nah, not after last years results. Bauer was coming off a much better season. Cease velo drop last year will give teams concerns.
Now if he would have repeated his numbers from 22 then yeah I’m sure he would.
Joel P
Lol the Bauer contract looked bad before everything happened with him.
Look at Nola who just signed.
filihok
JP
“Lol the Bauer contract looked bad before everything happened with him.”
1) No, it didn’t
2) even if it did, a team still signed it
I know it takes a little bit of intellect but try and make comments relative to the discussion.
Joel P
Yeah the Dodgers have had a recent history of overpaying to avoid years on a contract. That’s not something really any other teams do.
That’s why I think the Dodgers will get Glasnow.
filihok
JP
“Yeah the Dodgers have had a recent history of overpaying to avoid years on a contract. ”
It appears that you don’t understand baseball contract.
It’s not “overpaying”
Short-term contracts are going to have higher annual values than longer term contracts
There are 2 main reasons
1) RIsk. The longer a player is under contract for, the more likely they are to suffer an injury that either takes them out of action for a significant time or decreases their performance..
2) Aging. Players who have reached free agency tend to get worse over time. They might be worth $40 million a year for the first years, but they aren’t going to be worth that in the latter years. So, teams don’t pay $40 million per year for the whole contract.
Longer deals have lower AAV’s, shorter deals have higher ones. But that’s not “overpaying”..
Joel P
Most teams would give the guy the years in order to keep the annual cost down. It’s very rare that someone who is in their prime gets a short deal like Bauer did. Yes less years equals more money but that’s simply not what teams want to do.
filihok
JP
“Most teams would give the guy the years in order to keep the annual cost down. It’s very rare that someone who is in their prime gets a short deal like Bauer did. Yes less years equals more money but that’s simply not what teams want to do.”
Sure
Nothing about choosing a shorter deal is “overpaying”
Longer deals have lower AAV’s for the reasons I already said
Joel P
And like I said teams don’t want to do that they would rather take the risk to keep their payroll down.
And Glasnow is about as risky as it gets even at 1 year. 25 million for 120 innings max sounds like a bad idea.
filihok
JP
“And like I said teams don’t want to do that they would rather take the risk to keep their payroll down.”
Ok?
That has nothing to do with overpaying
Brew88
Now Nick Deeds is citing the Padres acquiring a loan as evidence that their “budgetary issues are well documented” I guess if you spread a rumor over and over multiple times it becomes reality to some.
stymeedone
It was a loan to make payroll. That’s the concern.
User 4095290658
‘….Pirates have far more pressing needs on their roster that seem likely to take priority over adding a win-soon, front-end arm like Cease.’
Lol…you’ve gotta be joking, Nick Deeds?
The main thing missing from BC’s rebuild is a pitcher like Cease and the Buccos have more prospects than most to get a deal done.
Joel P
You truly think the Pirates would trade for Cease?
User 4095290658
Yes.
How else are they going to sign a top of the rotation starter?
Joel P
I was assuming they simply weren’t getting a top of the rotation starter.
User 4095290658
Why would a savvy GM like Cherrington bother to build a ball club if he wasn’t trying to ultimately win?
Huntington did the same, but really effed up with the Archer trade although his moves for Burnett, Volquez and Liriano prior to that were much more fruitful.
Joel P
I hope the Pirates do try to win again at some point.
User 4095290658
Yeah, whatever.
I distinctly remember the same kinda sh1te comments as the Pirates improved in the early 2010’s as they became the second best team in baseball for a three year span.
Nutting is an awful owner and Pittsburgh is a small market, but given a decent team the fanbase will embrace the best ballpark in America.
Y’all in for a shock like the mid-2010’s Royals under Dayton Moore if you don’t think Cherrington is gonna try and win in Pittsburgh.
Joel P
I meant what I said. I hope the Pirates try to win again soon. No reason to get so defensive.
User 4095290658
I got defensive because you asked if the Pirates would truly trade for Cease?
Of course they would – and more than most teams they have the prospects to make a deal.
Joel P
I don’t recall the last time the Pirates traded prospects for a guy with less team control. The Archer deal wasn’t exactly recent. Yeah I know they have prospects but typically those guys are not traded.
DarkSide830
With Bob Nutting in charge what proof do you have that they are seriously trying?
User 4095290658
The Bucs have been in a rebuild since NH got fired after the Archer trade, so why would they have traded prospects?
Now is the time to compete and starting pitching is the major need – Cherrington said as much in a nationally broadcast interview last week.
It’s very lazy of journalists and commenters to not understand that.
Seamaholic
Yeah actually. They have easily the budget, and one of the deepest farms in the game. Heckuva lot more likely than spending $25m a year in free agency.
steelerbravenation
I don’t like a Cease deal for the Pirates but I could definitely see an Andrew Vaughn deal lining up.
cadagan
If I were betting, I would say Cease to the Braves as the top bet. But not by much.
4 reasons:
A) the one mentioned. The braves have already made a trade recently with CWS.
AA often makes trades with familiarity with GM’s.
B) Braves are stating that wanting more pitching depth than past seasons. They have already been very pitching deep every season (before injuries), but not top rotation depth.
I believe they are seeking TOR top of rotation arm depth specifically. In playoffs each year they end up starting their pre-season 8th starters.
C)ATL is very inclined (more than other teams) to be underlying statistically minded with pitchers especially.
Cease is one such pitcher.
D)Cease was born and also grew up an hour from Atlanta.
Joel P
Who exactly do the Braves have to trade?
filihok
JP
“Who exactly do the Braves have to trade?”
Bryce Elder – $24 million
Smith-Shawver – $22 million
Huston Waldrep – $15 million
Would all be decent starting points
Joel P
I don’t think they will trade any of those guys.
Seamaholic
You mean all of them?
steelerbravenation
Elder, Grissom & Ritchie for Cease
With Fried & Morton leaving after next year we can’t give up AS-S or Waldrep
But I don’t see the White Sox doing that deal
I don’t think the Braves match up well for Cease.
inkstainedscribe
Start with Grissom. Add any of the three starters @filhok mentioned. There may need to be other lesser pieces included from both sides.
biff_pocoroba
E.) The Braves already rank in the top quarter of the league in their mustache game. Cease could help them top the charts.
King Floch
Cease would be a great fit for the Orioles if the ChiSox don’t demand the moon and the stars for him as they were rumored to have done at this past trade deadline. The truly top shelf prospects- Holliday, Kjerstad, Basallo, and Mayo- are all non-starters after his middling 2023 season, but that still leaves a ton of really good guys to build a robust trade package with: Westburg, Cowser, Ortiz, Povich, Norby, Beavers, Tavera, McDermott, etc.
guilderc
@Filihok
You’re super condescending and quite frankly annoying.
You can assume the guy you’re commenting to is uneducated because he’s assuming the CWS don’t want the Dodgers 26 year old “prospect” who is a career .167 hitter. And also projects as more of a corner infielder. Where the CWS have Moncada and Vaughn. BTV is your “evidence”. But you’re not taking into consideration that his value is different to each teams specific situation.
If you wonder why almost nobody on these boards take you serious, that’s why. Now mute me, like you do everyone else who introduces you to reality.
@Joel P, I’ve enjoyed your trade proposals on this thread, as someone closely follows farm systems as well.
Longtimecoming
Guild – I had almost forgotten about the all knowing filihook until I saw your @. I haven’t seen his posts for months now due to that little button. Reading his tripe isn’t worth the time wasted. For the record, I’ll say he has the right to his opinion but we have the right to not want to read it – or even be tempted to read it.
Joel P
I enjoy talking to you too and sharing ideas. And Filihok isn’t too bad he just got a little defensive with the Dodgders prospects comment. But I will stand by my statement. Most teams don’t have a bunch of mid 20s guys who barely have any big league experience. Most teams calll those guys up way before that point. I think you have to take that into consideration when looking at their prospects or any prospects that age.
Geez Luken Baker had a 4 digit OPS at AAA last year. I think he won the AAA MVP. But nobody thinks he’s a prospect because he’s old. What makes the Dodgders players different?
slimmycito
Cubs with Eloy for Jose Quintana! Wait…
Old York
Don’t pay too much for the guy. GB% of 37.6% and kwERA of approximately 3.281, the calculated GBkwERA is approximately 4.34. He’s a reliable #3 or 4 guy in the rotation.
Big whiffa
That’s just ridiculous lol ! As a reds fan – I don’t want them to trade for cease bc of the cost involved but to take one of the most successful pitchers in baseball and use a saber metric stat to devalue him as a 3-4 starter is hilarious. He’s stats declined last year bc his team is terrible as well as coaching and running the franchise is worse than that.
Old York
@Big whiffa
I used his career numbers not just one year. He is not one of the most successful pitchers in baseball, not even close.
filihok
OY
His last 3 years have been markedly different than his first few
petcopadre
Padres can offer Cronenworth and any of Merrill or other of their talented farm system players.
filihok
pp
“Padres can offer Cronenworth and any of Merril”
Cease’s value, per BTV is $45 million
Cronenworth’s value is negative $33 million
I don’t think he’ll be the centerpiece for any deal for Cease
Merrill’s value is $58 million. The Padres should* be able to trade Merrill for Cease and get something else back
*of course, every team has their own valuations
DarkSide830
Dude, no one considers BBTV to be a good measure of trade value.
filihok
DS
“no one considers BBTV to be a good measure of trade value.”
Of course they do
Why do you believe that?
No one considers the average MLBTR commenter to be a good measure of trade value.
Simm
BBTV is pretty bad when it comes to players that are no longer prospects. I can make a million trades using that and not a single person would consider them fair. Plus prospects value as well as players value differ big time from team to team.
Anyways I don’t see them moving cronenworth in that deal. It would be more likely they include carpenter clearing his 5.5m.
ih8tepaperstraws
BTV is a joke. Their player value calculations are flawed. Might was well us MLB the show. But I get it, they are easy to site tools for the lazy and otherwise uninformed. BTV is right up there with this stupid Baseball savant percentile reports that are always misinterpreted because people don’t understand the meaning of percentiles.
Joel P
I think they are mostly fair with their values. If you have a specific example of someone that is over or underrated share it. They had Glasnow at 45 million for a while that was definitely wrong. But most are good.
filihok
paperstraws
“ih8tepaperstraws2 hours ago
BTV is a joke. Their player value calculations are flawed. ”
Present evidence to support your assertion.
Their track record appears to be pretty good.
Longtimecoming
PetcoP I’m in the camp of keeping Merrill. Until I see a Kim extension or a turnaround by Cro I think he is the SS in 25 with X at 2b. I don’t really mind trading prospects for proven talent but sometimes you have to keep a homegrown guy to balance payroll and he seems like the guy.
stymeedone
XB is not moving to 2B. His ego won’t let him. Padres should have changed his position as a condition of the signing. Playing Kim, Cronenworth and XB out of position is one of the reasons the team under achieved.
Longtimecoming
He was interviewed about it a few weeks ago and mentioned CF and 2b when the time comes. Now, his timing and the teams timing may be off but it isn’t accurate to say his ego won’t allow it.
Javia135
@stymeedone
You may not be aware of this, but the Padres actually have experience in convincing ego-driven shortstops to switch positions. For example I give you Fernando Tatis in RF. Now if you are saying that Xander Bogaerts is more ego-driven than Fernando Tatis…I will respectfully disagree.
Simm
Your points are valid though merrill currently doesn’t have a position on the padres. He would have to switch positions which they did use him at SS,2b, 1b and left field in the minors last year. They may look at him as a replacement for Soto in left if they trade him or he leaves after next year via free agency.
If they don’t extend Kim then cronenworth can move back to second. Which would mean they need a 1b.
Either way merrill is a trade chip they could cash in this year to make the team better next season. Preller has to feel the pressure to win next year so anything and everything I’m sure is on the table.
Longtimecoming
Kim likely to be 3b while Manny DH’s for about a month based on the last report on the timing of his procedure.
If they don’t sign a 1b then Merrill can open at 2b.
I’m liking Merrill to replace Kim in 25 more than his ability to be on the field in 24 though. At some point, you can only have so many of the long term contracts so I’m thinking Kim won’t be retained long term. May even be traded at deadline of Merrill is tearing up AAA.
Simm
If Merrill does fill in at second while manny dh’s then they likely keep him up if he is playing well. They can just rotate guys in and out of the dh spot.
Wheeler Dealer
Please Cubs don’t trade with White Sox you get smoked every time sincerely the fans
PutPeteinthehall
You got Madrigal and Heuer while getting rid of Kimbrel and his contract. That’s getting smoked? Sure Heuer ended up with what’s probably a career ending injury but that’s nothing to do with the trade at the time. Madrigal is probably a much better match on a small ball team. With the change of manager and probably philosophy of better fundamental baseball Madrigal will prove to be asset to the lineup. Switch of manager was made figuring more of an emphasis on manufacturing runs rather than just power would have resulted in another six wins.
Wheeler Dealer
Nobody wants those toxic players, Cease will have arm problems and Luis Robert jr is a headcase in a HOF body no thanks
Astros_fan_in_Aus
In my Astros dreams, Castillo and Cease are the two pitchers I would love to see in Houston, but I doubt that is going to happen. I would happily trade Hunter Brown and Alex Bregman for Cease.
Big whiffa
That’s actually a really good offer if sox are trying to contend again- that’s about as good as they can get
FrankEttingChiSox
Sox are trying to contend in 2026. Also their top prospect (Colson Montgomery) profiles best as a third baseman. I don’t think so.
davemlaw
Cease has 2 years remaining until he’s a FA. Burnes has 1 year left.
What is Cease worth in trade value and what is Burnes worth?
I think Cease is a better value for the next 2 years than Burnes. Not saying who’s the better pitcher but Cease should cost less on a per year basis, I believe.
Seamaholic
Burnes for Cease is the perfectly terrible trade. Makes negative sense for both teams!
filihok
Seam
“Burnes for Cease”
They didn’t say they should be traded for each other
filihok
Dave
Per BTV Cease’s trade value is $45 million – $67 million in production. $22 million in salary
Burnes’ is $32 million – $47 million in production. $15 million salary.
So,, Barnes more productive per year, but fewer years and higher paid.
dodgerblue88
The Luis Castillo BR link brings up the wrong Luis Castillo I believe… 🙂
BaseballisLife
He is going to end up on the Padres. Along with Montgomery.
Longtimecoming
Preach on brother – until recent events (Seidler’s passing) I had thought Montgomery was the answer / obvious fit to not offering Snell. Either that or Nola to pitch to his brother every 5 days. I hear Austin was in padres facility the day they non-tendered leading to a likely minor league contract idea. Obviously, it’s clear now he has a health concern that might never be corrected so no one is offering a mlb deal to him.
BaseballisLife
I just think that the Padres are going to solve at least half of their starting pitching issues in trade and that the Snell and Yamamoto free agent market is going to explode with big market teams like the Yankees and Dodgers exceed $250 million on both while Montgomery is more like 6/140-150.
Simm
I think Monty will get over paid this year. If the padres do trade for cease my guess is they sign a guy for much less than Monty. Probably look at brining back a guy like lugo for far less. Padres need three starters so they will have to look at guys that aren’t going to get 20m + per unless they plan on running a purple around 250m again or they decide to trade Soto.
BaseballisLife
The Padres do need 3 starters but I think that one of those will come in house and another from Fedde, a former major league 1st round draft pick that pitched in Korea last season and will cost just a couple million. Lugo is expected to cost $14-15 million AAV over 3 seasons and I don’t think the Padres will go that high for him.
Longtimecoming
I think Fedde is a lock based on Preller’s track record. Looking at Lugo or Wacha or Martinez (2 out of 3) coming back for a more affordable rotation. I’d still like Monty though.
This one belongs to the Reds
Reds have the ammo to get it done. The question is whether Po Boy has the ability to go get legitimate established major league talent. He hasn’t shown that so far.
its_happening
Brewers need him if they’re looking to contend.
Jeremy320
Would actually consider Milwaukee one the favorites. Contending, #2 farm system and looking to add after Woodruff injury.
Big whiffa
I agree. It’s not like they will be tearing down and completely rebuilding nor are they going to be in on any of the top free agent pitchers due to their budget restraints. Biggest hurdle I see is the white sox willingness to deal- they seem to have absolutely no clue or direction so it’s hard to bring a team like that to the table.
Scott Kliesen
As a Pirates fan, I would love to have Dylan Cease RTJR next year, but recognize the Chris Archer deal has turned Nutting into a completely risk adverse Owner. With that being said, I find the articles Author’s statement, “The Pirates have more pressing needs…” to be laughably ridiculous. The Pirates have exactly 1 SP who can be counted on for next year at this point in time. They most certainly don’t have any more PRESSING NEEDS than SP!
Jim Thome is my homie
100% agree with 1 pitcher who is healthy
ChiTown Sox
Heston Kjerstad,Coby Mayo and Connor Norby is where you start from the Orioles and sprinkle in 2 pitchers from there top 30 and you have a deal
Big whiffa
The sox gm would get half that off his tongue and the second half of that package would be pitched to a dial tone lol
The Saber-toothed Superfife
He’s like Verlanders’ dog….Sir Walksalot……
ChiTown Sox
Heston Kjerstad,Coby Mayo and Connor Norby and 2 of there top 30 pitching prospects would get the deal done with the Orioles.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Considering Mayo is a fair trade straight up, I bet it does, but Mayo is a 1B and the Sox believe they’re set there, disappointing as Vaughn has been. So your trade is both a huge overpay for the Orioles and doesn’t line up with the Sox’ perceived needs.
bmann300
Sox fan here- Does a trade of Cease mean we are in re-tool – re-build or just want to become a Triple a ball club? It would mean Getz would get his wish-we would become KC!
BoomersOwnEverything
You guys kind of already are a AAA club imo. Just have a top 15 team-ish salary lol
FrankEttingChiSox
Its a rebuild. And Robert being on the table means the front office is willing to accept 2028 as the start of the next contention window.
I.M. Insane
Cease-to-the-Orioles rumors have persisted for awhile. The O’s have one downfall here at that’s the fact that teams will try to “bully” the O’s into surrendering their top prospects in return for pretty much anyone. Baltimore is better off going the free agent route and getting a mid-tier starter. They’ll be fine.
BoomersOwnEverything
Elder+Grissom+2 top 5 org specs
for Cease.
Or Ozzie+Fried+3 specs for Robert+Cease
hyraxwithaflamethrower
If the Sox give up Robert, it’s a white flag that ushers in another rebuild. So in that case, no reason to take on MLB players. Might make an exception for Albies with all that control, but would probably just want a ton of prospects.
jvent
Cease & Robert to the Mets for Vientos, Parada, Alex Ramirez, a SS prospect and Megill
Simm
Roberts has insane trade value. With his contract his value is as good as soto’s value when he was on the nats. Padres basically traded 5 top prospects for him.
Maybe some of roberts injury history reduces it some but he is worth a ton either way.
fall2025
Cease for Smith Shawver and Grissom happening next week
fall2025
Smith Shawver and Grissom for Cease
PutPeteinthehall
Author obviously believes Ohtani will not return to Angels as he has them listed in the same boat as the A’s and Rockies. Sad.
As far as the two Chicago teams matching up on trades author is wrong. Cubs definitely take Cease back and send Morel and a few lottery ticket minor leaguers.
Anyone having the return for Cease making real money doesn’t fit with the plans of spendthrift Uncle Jerry. Morel, a catching prospect and a lottery ticket do the job.
Jim Thome is my homie
I find it highly unlikely the Pirates would go after him, but I don’t agree with the article saying they have more pressing needs. They only have 1 actual starter that is healthy/not coming back from TJ, so I’d say that is their biggest concern as far as depth goes.
First base has been a chasm of talent sans Santana last year, so that’s another area that seems to never get addressed with this team.
soxygen
As a Sox fan, I like the trade match with the Cards. There are multiple ways to build a good Cease trade package out of the Cards prospect depth.
PasstheTums
I don’t think Dylan Cease is a great fit for the Braves. He is more of a fly ball pitcher than ground ball pitcher (which the Braves prefer) and he is not very good against left handed hitters. His velocity also dropped by more than 1 mph in 2023, not usually a good sign of things to come.
BeeVeeTee
There is no doubt the White Sox are going to explore the option with moving Cease to a team that’s in contention in need of a starting pitcher but it is not going to be for a bunch of minor leaguers. The White Sox are not in full rebuild but are definitely exploring the option to rebuilding their system. Needless to say, the White Sox did get some pieces in their farm system with the trades during the deadline and moving on from Anderson is something the franchise needed since he was no longer the player he was and Robert became the face of the team. The White Sox do have some guys that will be up in the upcoming season or two where they will be somewhat relevant again.
SI
I am now dumber because I read the comment section. Never thought I see BTV used a biblical guideline. ITS fantasy baseball trading site, period.
SupremeZeus
Cease will be the top arm the Cardinals land this offseason. Window is closing quickly on Goldy & Arrenado, the time to push the chips in is now. Mo and that organIzation will be willing to move top prospects as opposed to vast amounts of cold hard cash for top tier FA arms. See you in St. Louis Dylan.
msqboxer
Cardinals are gun shy and overvalue every player in their system not named Jordan. Don’t think a deal gets done unless it starts with Liberatore.
DobyFan
Reigning AL champs Texas Rangers?
Yes, it’s a true statement, but…
nrd1138
Just offer Getz an ex-Royal player (it doesn’t even have to be a good ex-Royal player), he’ll sell Cease off then. The Sox are not going to get what they want for a guy who has had a collective 1 good season as a pitcher. Even if the Sox were able to convince someone to pay dearly for him, they will likely get a bunch of busts and player this org has no hope of developing.
Salzilla
Considering Cashman has said he needs a CF and a SP, I can certainly see the Yanks being in that first tier of best fits. Plenty of young talent now to trade away, too.
Franco22
Sox need durable players that show up everyday. JP Crawford averages 150 games a year. Yes he is a .250 hitter in Seattle but that could change in Chicago. Dodgers, Orioles, Blue Jays, and Brewers have what the Sox need long term and short term contractually. They all need pitching so leverage it for everyday durable players. Improve the defense because the young pitchers you will be getting will need that support , they will be challenged if you give teams an extra out every inning. Errors will inflate their problems.
YanksPhan42
Am i the only one sick of all of the voodoo numbers that say……well, if he didn’t scratch his vag on the 3rd inning of games played on odd days, his ERA would have been 2 runs lower….so, he’s actually awesome. Sounds like a participation trophy to me. Your numbers are your numbers. There is skill and luck involved in everyone’s game.
Cease is a nice pitcher with talent, but the reality is he has a 3.83 career ERA…4.58 this year…, walks a ton of batters and was barely league average this year.
Steve Adams Is A Hack
“Meanwhile” needs to come at the start of the sentence, not the middle. How do you mess this up, then get it right when you use it in the next 4ish bullet points? Maybe learn a new word, kid.
prodave
With all their pitching woes, the Rays should be in on Cease. A multi-prospect package headlined by Curtis Meade could pay off for both teams.