Even after revamping their rotation with a rapid-fire trio of free agent signings, the Cardinals are still in the mix for White Sox righty Dylan Cease, reports Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. President of baseball operations John Mozeliak said at the press conference to introduce Sonny Gray that he “doubted” his next move would be to add more starting pitching but conceded that he remains “open-minded” to further rotation additions (link via Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch).
The Cardinals, of course, signed Gray, Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn in just over a week’s time, adding a trio of arms who combined for 97 starts in 2023. The addition of Gray added a front-end presence to the St. Louis rotation, while Lynn and Gibson at the very least provided some reliable bulk innings on the back end. It seems clear that the Cards prioritized some stability after years of injury-related starting pitching crunches at Busch Stadium, and Cease would be a fourth addition in that vein.
In terms of pure results, the 27-year-old Cease (28 next month) has been on both ends of the spectrum recently. In 2022, he finished runner-up to Justin Verlander in AL Cy Young voting, while his 2023 campaign saw his ERA more than double from 2.20 to 4.58. Cease’s velocity dipped by a mile per hour, his strikeout rate fell three percentage points, and he yielded far more hard contact than he did during that elite 2022 campaign. What remained constant, however, was the righty’s availability. Cease made 33 starts this past season — his fourth straight year with a full slate of starts. Since 2020, Cease leads all MLB pitchers with 109 games started.
As things stand, the Cardinals project for a five-man rotation of Gray, Miles Mikolas, Lynn, Gibson and Steven Matz. Mikolas and Matz are both signed through 2025 — Mikolas at a total of $32MM and Matz at $24MM. There’s been some speculation about the possibility of an eventual Matz trade, but the Cardinals are also surely reluctant to thin out their depth too much after being burned by a lack of depth in multiple seasons recently.
Cease would give the Cardinals even more bulk innings but do so while carrying more upside than perhaps any member of their current staff. He’d surely benefit from a move out of the White Sox’ homer-happy stadium and away from their poorly ranked defense. With two years of club control remaining, a projected $8.8MM salary in arbitration (courtesy of MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz) and clear Cy Young-caliber upside on the mound, bidding for Cease’s services will be fierce.
Already this winter, he’s been connected to the Braves, Dodgers, Reds and Orioles. That’s surely just a fraction of the teams who’ve at least reached out to the ChiSox to gauge the asking price. The Cardinals’ recent free-agent activity might lessen their urgency relative to some of those other suitors, but it’s nevertheless of note that they remain in the mix at all.
From a payroll perspective, they can likely make a Cease acquisition work without even dramatically raising their spending from last year’s levels. The Cards backloaded Gray’s three-year, $75MM contract such that he’ll be paid just $10MM in 2024. Roster Resource projects a $180MM payroll right now, which is only narrowly higher than last year’s Opening Day mark. And the Cards could yet trade arbitration-eligible names like Tyler O’Neill and Dylan Carlson, which would impact that payroll projection.
Someone like O’Neill — a free agent at season’s end — isn’t likely to hold much appeal to the White Sox, who’ll be looking for controllable talent to build around in the near future. But generally speaking, the Cardinals have a bevy of young, MLB-ready talent that could interest Chicago. Names like Carlson, Brendan Donovan, Nolan Gorman, Alec Burleson, Luken Baker and Matthew Liberatore all have at least three seasons of club control remaining, and that’s not even counting some interesting upper-minors prospects who’ve yet to debut but are relatively close to the Majors (e.g. Gordon Graceffo, Tink Hence).
As for the timing of a potential Cease trade, reports on the matter are conflicting in nature; MLB.com’s Jon Morosi suggested just yesterday that Cease’s market was heating up and a trade could come together by Sunday evening. Not 18 hours later, Rosenthal reported nearly the opposite — that Sox GM Chris Getz has been indicating to teams he prefers to wait until after the top free-agent names have come off the board.
When you have too many OFs, it’s usually because you’ve got no real above average OFs.
Or because your farm system produced a lot at the same time?
Maybe a bit of both but Noot and Walker would be on any clubs shopping list if the Cards made them available (which they won’t)
Or you play guys out of position and just stick them in the outfield.
That is exactly what the situation is. The cardinals do not have an excess of outfielders. They have an excess of infielders they are playing in the outfield.
I’m pretty sure Getz wants at least 1 almost MLB ready P and probably 2 for Dylan Cease. And if the Cardinals had any at all they wouldn’t be signing 35 year olds to pitch next year so what are we even talking about here? It’s nonsense. And you’re not getting him for OF’s that are really IF’s. That guy Joel is obviously the 12 year old son of a Cardinals Executive. The stuff he says is borderline ridiculous. He must of gotten a laptop for his 6th grade graduation. The Cubs have a better shot at him. If the Cubs sign Imanaga, Then they can trade Wicks and Brown for Cease and have Steele, Tallion, Hendricks, Imanaga and Cease with Smyly and Assad to fill in, Plus Horton coming on strong. It’s a way better option for Getz than some lame OF’s.
Better watch out Joel will mute you if he hasn’t already. He gets very soft skinned when you disrespect his heroes and educate him on his lack historical knowledge. But it’s not his fault he want around to live through the things he constantly misrepresents.
God I hope so. but he’s so dumb that he doesn’t realize I can still see his posts and still call him out so whether he mutes me or not is pointless. Thus the 12 year old mentality.
I’ve got a trade for Cease. Cubs sign Imanaga which is a very real possibility. So you have 2 lefties in Steele and Imanaga. So now you trade Wicks, Brown and Christian Hernandez. That’s prospects 5, 10 and 20 for Cease and 2 MLB ready P’s and a former #1 Cubs prospect who has been passed up by Rojas, Valdez, and Rivera and maybe Vaqsquez. But he’s still talented. They could even sweeten it a tad more with some low A guys. Cubs now have Cease, Steele, Tallion, Hendricks, Imanaga with Assad, Wesneski and Smyly left over. I’m sure Counsell can work with that. Then next year Smyly and Hendricks disappear and Horton steps in. Makes way more sense to me. I hate losing Wicks AND Brown, But you have to give something to get something. Sorry but Cards can’t put anywhere near that package together.
you do realize that Hence is better than Brown right? And yes, the Cardinals COULD beat that package, easily, but they shouldn’t.
I like Hence but he’s not better than Brown and Brown is way closer to being MLB ready.
Fan graphs have them both graded 50 and pipeline 55. Hence is younger. Fan graphs also has wicks a 50. That would be a heck of a package from the cubs for 2 years of cease.
They have a way better chance of extending him than the Sox do. The Cubs are much more viable to be competitive long term than the Cards also. Goldy and Arenado aren’t going to last forever. And if you want something good you have to pay. I would much rather have Cease for 2 years than Glasnow at 25 million for 1. And Glasnow is way more brittle.
Do you need me to name all the outfielders that the Cardinals got rid of over the last decade that went on to have success elsewhere? I can.
If I was the GM of a team who needed an outfielder and Mozeliak called I would DEFINITELY pick up the phone.
Lol let’s see the list? Hopefully it doesn’t include Adolis Garcia who was literally DFAd or Arozarena who wasn’t even a top tier prospect when traded. So who else is on that list? Hes absolutely right that the cardinals have just produced a bunch of very mediocre outfielders that don’t have much value at all
Pham
Grichuk
Arozarena
Ozuna
Garcia
Lane Thomas
Garcia just won world series MVP. Arozarena has won an ALCS MVP.
The Cardinals have drafted and developed more quality outfielders in the last decade than any team in baseball.
lol the cards traded for Ozuna when he was already an All Star that’s a massive stretch
Yeah and they gave up 2 future Cy Young contenders for him. And then he left and played great in Atlanta for a year.
It’s a pattern of making terrible decisions with outfielders. Some team is gonna get ONeill and if he’s healthy he’s going to play great. Carlson isn’t a star but he’s a solid player again needs to get healthy.
If your team needs an outfielder these are guys to consider. Neither makes a lot of money and neither will cost a bunch in a trade.
You have very a selected memory and weird takes. But fandom is admirable.
Pham is journeyman who is a bad club house guy. He’s the one teams sign when they absolutely have to and then they let him go.
Ozuna they neither developed nor traded away. It was a mistake not resigning him though. He is the exact player the outfield needs.
Garcia was overlooked by everyone.
Arozeria was a top prospect, big mistake their to, his minor league year when we traded him was off the charts. He made the top 50 list the year after we traded him. Big mistake.
Lane Thomas did have a good year last year in a very bad team. He looked very bad with cards though. We’ll see if he can repeat.
Grichuk very mediocre player. Never made it as a starter on a good team.
The current group is a bunch of average or slightly below average players. Nootbaar included.
The Cardinal outfielders are all no power but decent on base guys. Individually yes, they have a little value to other teams who are missing one of those. But when your outfield is filled with those the outfield is weak. You need one guy, not 10. All, except Walker, including Victor Scott can be moved and never missed by the Cardinals and never loved by their new team the way the Cardinals fans love them. That’s why when most are traded away, (Rasmus, Piscotty, Grichuk, etc) are soon traded away again or simply released and begin their jumping around the league to a new club every year.
We didn’t draft/develop Ozuna. We traded for him. That trade sucked for us though.
Why do Cards fans STILL consider Garcia someone who should have been kept on the roster?? He was waived by the Rangers & passed up by every single MLB team before going back to Texas as a spring training invite. Pham, Grichuk & Thomas are replacement level players. The only one that really hurts is Arozarena.
Garcia went on to play great in Texas and is still playing great for them. That’s a mistake just because other teams had a chance to take him doesn’t make it any less of a mistake.
Pham, Grichuk and Thomas are far better than replacement level you made that up.
They should have kept some of them
Labeling Noot as “average or slightly below average” is a good way to never have another comment taken seriously. There are plenty of failed outfielders in Cardinals history to pick on (Grichuk, Rasmus, etc.), but Noot is not one of them. You can still build a reasonable case even with less examples, just use ones that actually fit the point that is being made.
rols1026: Mediocre? Getz will trade Cease for those type of players in a heart beat.
Guys: Every team has given up players who went on to be great players. The White had Tatis Jr. on their roster and let him go. Bryce Harper was passed on by the cubs, I believe. It’s just an error in judging talent. It happens and, in hindsight, it’s also aggravating.
Lol of course you include Adolis and Arozarena even though neither were successful with the cardinals and Neither were considered great prospects. I just explained how they don’t belong on the list yet you included them anyways to make the list look better. Ozuna they traded for, also doesn’t count. So basically Pham, Grichuk and Lane Thomas. And even Thomas was considered a journeyman/utility type player when he was traded for 3 months of washed up Lester. It was only after the trade did he blossom with WSH. So now we’re down to Grichuk (bad) and Pham (like 5 years ago). You sure tried but that list did not accomplish what you think it did
Cubs didn’t pass on Harper what are you talking about? He was drafted 1st overall?
Lol Getz has no interest in guys like O’Neil or Carlson or Donavon
They didn’t draft grichuk
Yup it’s a terrible take and a terrible list. Arozarena was not considered a top prospect at the time of the trade. Good prospect sure but not elite. Basically every single player on that list improved AFTER leaving the cardinals (or in Ozuna’s case before and after he was in STL). He’s clearly just a fanboy
And those pitchers weren’t even the Cards top pitching prospects.
So that hindsight scouting your doing doesn’t make the argument you think it does.
Problem Cards have fallen into over the last decade is that there has been one truly down season, and rest have been contending for postseason. So when RA and Garcia came up, they didn’t take an OF job and run with it, nor were they given time to develop and have growing pains. It took them leaving STL to get the opportunities to take next step. That is the one genuinely fair criticism of Cards FO and player development.
I have no idea who you’re responding to cause I’ve never even mentioned pitchers? The point is that all of those outfielders improved AFTER leaving the cardinals. Meaning they were developed successfully by OTHER organizations. Garcia was DFAd multiple times including by the Rangers. Saying the cardinals didn’t give him a chance is not accurate history considering all 30 teams passed on him. Nobody thought he’d be good and the cardinals certainly don’t get any extra credit just for having him in their organization for a while…
The point was about in the 2019 offseason before the Phillies signed him.
Nootbaars number are very comparable to Kevin Keirmeyer. Average player IMO. What has Nootbaar ever shown to argue otherwise. He looks a lot better on paper than when you watch him on a daily basis. He practically never swings the bat and looks to walk. Which is fine when you have one of those guys in your team but not when it makes up most of your team. He’s a good lead off guy, but when you look at his metric all of his on walk numbers come when the team is up or down by 4 or more runs. He’s not someone you want at the plate when you need a hit. That to me is an average player. If he would augment his high walk rate with meaning full like a Kyle Schwarber I would have a much different opinion of him.
Pujols is not the Tom Brady of baseball. He was Baseball America’s number 41 prospect pre-2021. He was absolutely a top prospect.
The entire league has interest in Donovan and Carlson. It’s just to what extent. I’m certain there is interest in O’Neill as well, but he’s not getting a good SP.
That isn’t too far off. Noot is average or a C+ player at best. There isn’t a lot different between Noot and Verdugo.
T.O. spent most of the off-season prior to the 2023 MLB season supposedly training his body with a new workout routine in preparation to withstand the wear-and-tear a full season usually causes, especially for frail guys like him. He knew how much the organization wanted and needed to see him on the field so it could further evaluate its position on his future in StL, thus, the money it’s willing to pay to keep him. If life-changing, generational wealth is not enough incentive to do everything a person can to stay healthy, I don’t know if anything could ever be. I think most fans know T.O. can be a difference maker, but I bet many of them also feel like it’s about time to move on to a different option, mainly because his injuries hurt the team, too, and everybody knows that. He can’t be trusted to stay healthy. He’s the kind of guy who would miss a game because he broke a fingernail.
I had a lot of hope for him. I was supportive and patient, but he just can’t stay healthy. Everybody knows that, even him, regardless of whatever he says, unless he really is lying to himself and he believes it. I know T.O.’s father was a body builder etc etc but I’m guessing he’s been frail his entire life, and that’s also part of why he decided to become so strong, but it didn’t work that way for him because his issues are probably genetic/skeletal/structural/lifelong. Just a guess.
But yet, the Cardinals FO and fans seem to think they can pick up Cease for a couple of non proven, spare parts. LOL, I guess they don’t realize just how lucky they were when they acquired Goldy and Arenado for spare change. It shouldn’t happen again. No wonder they finished in last place.
Very true. Goldschmidt and Arenado were traded for very similar reason. Neither of which were ideas started by the Cardinals. Arenado forced his way out of Colorado, Goldschmidt was coming off a bad by Goldschmidt standards season, was a free agent after the year and Arizona was in a rebuild. The big market teams and teams in position to already had 1B and 3B filled with good legit players. Teams like the Braves had their positions spoken for by prospects they really liked, like Austin Riley. The Cardinals were pretty much the only team who needed those players and were in competitive position where it made sense to get them. The Rockies and Diamondbacks were in a position where they absolutely had to move them. Therefore the returns were ridiculous.
And since the Snakes were just in the WS and the Cards finished 5th in the NL Central, Who are we really saying won those trades? Sometimes payroll money trumps players. Depending on how you use it..
None of the players the DBacks got in the Goldschmidt trade helped them last year though. But their thought process in how to rebuild and cutting hate with players at the right time is certainly something the Cardinals should pay attention to. Mozeliak would have never traded a player like Dalton Varsho like the DBacks did. And Varsho would have been as highly regarded as Nootbaar to most St. Louis Fans. But the DBacks did it because they had a very similar situation to the Cardinals with too many outfielders, except their outfielders had talent and were considered high prospects at one time.
Unless Noot, Gorman and Donovan are among the people the Cards are willing to trade, Getz shouldn’t even bother wasting his time.
Gorman and Nootbaar aren’t available. Donovan could be but I think the White Sox need younger guys with more years of team control.
I’d rather trade Gorman than Donovan!
@spud.. Nope.
You’d rather trade a guy (Gorman) who is going to hit .275, 35+ bombs, and can play 1st or 3rd when/if those spots open up and has 4 more years of team control?
Gorman and Walker are going to be team leaders in a couple of years, so no, Gorman stays, unless we get a huge haul for him, for good reasons.
Donovan is great and I want him to stay, but if we had to trade one, Donovan would be most people’s choice.
Gorman and Donovan are very different players.
Gorman has the potential to be a stud. No way I would trade him I said the day we drafted him I think we got the best player in the draft. His swing is like ONeills it’s can’t miss. But he does have flaws he’s an OK 3b and while not terrible a below average 2b. And I dont think he ever hits for a high average. But the power is real he very well could lead baseball in homers for a season at one point.
Donovan is very different. He can play multiple positions he’s not great at any but he’s good at all of them. He doesn’t have a lot of power but his approach at the plate is best on the team right there with Nootbaar. He takes great at bats and that’s something Gorman is never going to do.
Gorman is a potential stud but Donovan is better than people think he is.
Jeez the way you hype up every Cardinal player you’d think they’d never be a last place team….but here we are…
Well said, Ol’ Uncle Charlie. Let’s not forget, Gorman already has been the HR team leader (2023) in his 2nd season, which was his first real chance to make adjustments and prove he belongs. I try to keep my hopes realistic for him, but the sky really is the limit as long as he can stay healthy. His recurring back issues at such a young age have to be concerning, though. Hopefully he’s doing everything he can to prepare his body for the wear-and-tear grind a 162 game, marathon season is sure to cause. He will be a very important piece of the 2024 puzzle (and beyond).
Donovan is the more complete player
I’m not hating on Donovan at all, he’s a great guy to have around, too. Gorman’s best tool is his raw power, which is likely to lead to substantial run production, especially as he matures. Like Joel P said earlier, they’re different players and they offer different strengths to the team.
Gorman is available for trades. I’m not saying I would trade him, just that the front office has specifically said Noot and Walker are off the table, but no such comment has been made about Gorman or Donavan. Both will not be traded, but there is technically still a chance one of them gets moved, even if unlikely.
We have Arenado, Gorman and Donovan with Saggese on the way. I am not sure all 4 are going to fit together and that’s probably why they have considered trading one of them. But perhaps Donovan can play a bit more outfield and the team could move on from a bat only player like Baker or Burleson to make it work.
If Donovan had a better arm, these conversations would be very very different.
He’s a tremendous player with a ton of skills, but seeing him lollipop throws from the outfield isn’t something anyone wants to see on a regular basis.
Gorman is also available for graduations, bat mizvahs and weddings. “Make me a bicycle, CLOWN!!!”
I’ll save the writers some time as I can see 3 Cease articles at the top of the feed. There are 29 other teams that would also love to have Cease. That is all.
But not all have the prospect capital to make it happen.
True but I’m sure they are all “interested”.
Dotnet: Prospects don’t matter. As long as they’ll play for $3m-, Getz is interested.
As a Cub fan I had a hunch that Sonny Gray was not the last pitcher the Cards would seek. Cards are almost always a formidable adversary.
Careful with those reasonable, measured comments.
If you don’t like an article don’t comment. That’s how writers and reporters get the hint.
You did the opposite.
I didn’t say I didn’t like it. I’m just trying to help them. Instead of writing 3 different articles about the same thing in one morning, they could consolidate and save time.
Hey see if they are hiring. Sounds like you could add something to the site.
They would have trade for me, but a couple of low A prospects won’t get it done.
When there’s not much going on, you have to put something there to get people to keep coming.
Only 4 teams had worse records than the Cardinals in 2023, yet they’re re-stocking like they were 2 games away from the WS. Gotta love the weak NL Central. (And BTW, I don’t blame them for being aggressive).
Won 93 games in 2022. I believe the problem is the manager and it didn’t get resolved but at the same time this was a playoff team 4 years running before 2023. And the team isn’t all that different from what it was in 2022.
They were barely over .500 against teams not in the NL central. The weakness of the division covered up how bad the team was for several years which is why they were embarrassed in the playoffs.
Marmol and an inexperienced coaching staff — I’m really thinking of the pitching coach in particular –are an underreported issue in the Cardinals’ failure last year.
It’s a trickle down effect. Nobody wants to work for an inexperienced manager so the coaches are all inexperienced. And Mozeliaks ego can’t handle a real manager.
McGee, Clapp, and Warner are inexperienced coaches? No. They’re holdovers from before Marmol. Skip wasn’t inexperienced either. Neither was McEwing. Ward isn’t either.
Mozeliak’s ego? Good grief.
Barely over .500 got the Dbacks to the World Series.
But the last article was several hours ago. I wonder if the Cards are STILL interested in Dylan Cease?
You mad bro?
Checking … checking …
yep, still interested.
Cease, Gray, Mikolas, Gibson, Lynn with Matz floating in the bullpen and Thompson, Liberatore as injury insurance seems like a decent staff. Make it happen Mo.
How about buying up to a six man rotation to start the season? Gray, Imanaga, Bauer, Mikolas, Gibson and Lynn. Hang on to Matz for now in the pen.
The wouldnt hire Bauer to flip burgers.
Ready for the Cease rumors to…cease.
at least the Cease rumors are more realistic than the Soto rumors, but yeah mlbtr stacking rumor on rumor within the hour for both guys.
Ha yeah that’s why it’s called MLB Trade Rumors.
You are thinking like Mo. Maybe DeWitt has realized he is very old and wants to win NOW.
If so, it’s about time. Their winning legacies are at stake here.
What is not realistic about the Soto rumors? They have been out there for months.
Padre fans are going through the 5 stages of grief. Some of them are still in the denial stage. A couple have moved on to bargaining, fine we will trade Soto but only for every single good player in your minors.
Truth. They are getting a lot of mileage out of Dennis Lin and Ken Rosenthal trying to will a trade into fruition. If the Padres moved the right field fence into little league distance like the Bronx would the press want him to stay in SD?
Ready for the Cease puns to cease and the Cease punsters to punt
If the Cardinals were going to trade for Cease why would they have signed 3 starting pitchers already?
Matz would have to be dealt and the White Sox don’t need Matz so that’s a problem. Plus Matz is the only lefty in the rotation.
Mozeliak makes moves when he has to. At this point he doesn’t have to add a starter he can trade ONeill and Carlson for pen help and the offseason will be complete.
Because realistically, it takes 7 starters to get through a season..and a guy like Matz could easily swing between starting and the pen.
As for the he’s the only lefty part?
Who cares? Having 1 lefty in the rotation is overrated imo.
The Cardinals have Liberatore and Thompson. They have Graceffo, McGreevy, Kloffenstein and Robberse who all should be ready later in the season.
It doesn’t make sense. I wish it did trading for Cease sounds fun but it doesn’t make sense.
Liberatore and Thompson do not negate the opportunity of adding a TOR arm like Cease, especially if the team is genuinely interested in competing after a historically bad 2023.
In fact, this is exactly the kind of deal they should make. If Cease pitches well here, there is also the opportunity to extend him. The team has a lot of money coming off the books over the next two years, so a lucrative extension would be very doable. They do well at producing position players, but they have struggled to develop pitching. This type of trade (2 years of control with the potential to extend) is a valid way of dealing with that until you figure out how to develop your own pitching again.
No Liberatore and Thonpson don’t negate adding Cease. But signing Gibson, Gray and Lynn does. And why do you think Lynn and Gibson have options for 2025? For the same reason you said it makes sense to get Cease because the organization plans on using them until the next wave of pitching is ready.
You could say signing Gibson and Lynn was dumb and I would agree. But that’s already happened. A Cease trade doesn’t make sense anymore.
But Gibson and Lynn are old and both sucked last year. The FO knows that. They also know that Mikolas is gone after this year. So if Mikolas sucks and isn’t resigned, and if Gibson and Lynn both suck, your rotation potentially consists of Gray and Matz. Cease is essentially a sure thing for this year and (importantly) next year whereas Lynn and Gibson are not. If the FO was counting on Lynn and Gibson for 2025, they would have given them 2 years deals from the get go. They gave them options because they wisely know they have to wait and see if either of them can turn back the clock a little bit.
If the front office planned on them sucking in 2024 they wouldn’t have been signed.
They aren’t planning on them sucking and that’s not what I said. They are waiting to see if they will pitch well. They believe in them enough for a 1 year guarantee but not a two year guarantee.
A Cease trade simply doesn’t make sense at this point man. Again I don’t like the Lynn and Gibson signings either but they still happened. Maybe a Matz and more for Manoah deal could make sense because Matz had success in Toronto and we trade with them a lot but still I don’t see that happening either. This is the rotation for now. Here is a trade I was working on last night but again it’s not too realistic.
Arenado
ONeill
Matz
For
Chris Taylor
Dustin May
Brusdar Greterol
Then take the savings and sign Montgomery. But again not realistic just for fun.
Just trying to understand your argument:
Do the Lynn and Gibson signings indicate that the FO plans on them being in the rotation for 2025?
2025 rotation
Gray
Mikolas
Gibson or Lynn
Matz
Young guy
I think 1 of Lynn or Gibson comes back in 2025. The other spot is filled by young guys.
You cant have all old guys one year and then replace them all the next. Just can’t do that. I think 2 new starters from the system will show up in the 2026 rotation and even that’s pushing it.
Mikolas has two years left. He’s not a free agent until after 2025.
Cease is a sure thing (if that’s a real thing with pitchers) to make 30+ starts. He may be an ace (2022) or he may be a #4 (2023). His performance isn’t a sure thing at all.
So Arenado (who won’t waive his NTC), O’Neill (great IF he’s healthy), and Matz (a #4 with #2 upside if healthy) for May (who won’t pitch until at least July), Chris Taylor (do the Cardinals need another utility guy), and Graterol (a low strikeout reliever).
Huh?
Arenado grew up a Dodgers fan. He wants to play for a winner. I bet he would wave his NTC to go there.
ONeill is risky yes but the Dodgers have depth and love giving guys days off even when they are healthy.
I don’t think Matz has number 2 upside.
Did you miss the part where I said take the money saved and sign Montgomery? He’s worlds better than Matz huge upgrade for the rotation.
Taylor is a nice player to have as your 9th or 10th man.
Grateful is a very good reliever he’s the 8th inning guy instantly.
Mikolas is signed through 2025.
I do agree that this is most likely. But surely you would agree that it is possible that neither Gibson nor Lynn pitches well enough to be involved in the 2025 rotation? And that the FO would know that is a possible outcome as well?
If Gibson and Lynn both suck in 2024 then we decline both options and go sign a free agent. I think 1 of the 2 will be worth keeping and I think that’s the front offices plan.
Again I don’t like either of those signings. Not defending them just saying they happened and we can’t change that.
So why is it nonsensical for the FO to say:
1. We like Gibson and Lynn to bounce back somewhat and provide consistent innings this year.
2. They might do well and be able to provide similar value next year.
3. Gibson and Lynn were also horrible last year and might ruin our playoff aspirations this year, to say nothing of their potential contributions next year (2025)
4. Two of our other rotation pieces (Mikolas and Matz) have also been incredibly inconsistent and might hinder our playoff aspirations this year.
5. Therefore, if we find the cost reasonable, it would benefit us to acquire Cease to help us this year and next year, and perhaps beyond if the dominos fall rightly.
6. We have numbers this year though, so it is not essential for us to acquire Cease, but we will if the deal is right.
I will say it again. If the team thought Lynn and Gibson would suck in 2024 they wouldn’t have signed them. I am not defending the signings.
Let me also add, I don’t think a trade for Cease is likely either. I’m just trying to get in the head of the FO when a rumor like this comes out (assuming the rumor is possibly true).
That’s like saying the FO thinks there’s zero risk in signing Lynn and Gibson. That assumes a level of stupidity that the FO, quite frankly, doesn’t have. They know all pitchers carry risk, some more than others. They weigh the risk and reward, determine that the potential reward of Lynn and KG outweighs the potential risk, and moves forward. But that doesn’t mean the risk is totally forgotten. That, in fact, wouldn’t make sense.
We have Liberatore and Thompson. It’s not like the team is relying on Lynn and Gibson to make 32 starts each. There is a lot of depth. What’s missing is top of the rotation talent but there is tons of depth.
So they are missing TOR talent, but it doesn’t make sense to try and trade for Cease if the FO likes the deal?
Not after you already added 3 starting pitchers it does no.
Ceaae is in big time demand. Another team will put out a better offer because that team needs him more than the Cardinals do.
Whether the trade happens or not is irrelevant. You and I agree it is unlikely. We are disputing whether it makes sense or not.
The fact is – and you agreed – they lack TOR talent. Sonny Gray is the only TOR arm on a team with playoff aspirations that has added two #4/#5 pitchers to a rotation that has, at best, one other pitcher with #3 upside (healthy/effective Matz). Despite adding 3 arms, it makes sense for them to try and make a deal for an additional TOR arm if possible. “But then they have 6 starters” you might say. To which my reply is “trade Matz or move him to the bullpen as a swingman, something he’s already done well”.
Yes they have minors depth. I like their depth a lot, actually. But perhaps the FO doesn’t want to count on any of them going into this year. And that is another reason why it would make sense to add a TOR arm.
Arenado wouldn’t waive his NTC last year to go to the Dodgers. I don’t think he would now either. He and his wife love St. Louis.
You can think Matz doesn’t but he does. Look at his numbers after he returned from the pen last year. It’s always been a question of health for him, not talent.
Montgomery is fine. He just had a career year. We’ll see if he can repeat it.
Taylor is worse than both Edman and Donovan. He’ll be 34 this year and he’s making $13 million each year the next two years.
Graterol isn’t any better than Romero or Gallegos and given the composition of this team his way below average K rate makes him a bad fit.
Who is playing 3B every day in your revamped Cardinals lineup? You really think a lineup of Taylor at 3B and Montgomery in the rotation is better than Arenado and Matz?
They signed them to eat innings to get through the year and not risk exposing the minor league guys and lowering their trade value in a year they don’t plan to compete it. Mo is stepping down at the end of the year. He’s simply filling a roster to get through the year while not leaving his successor with a bunch of old guys in bad contracts to have to deal with.
How do you know they don’t plan to compete? They just signed Sonny Gray and are apparently trying to acquire Dylan Cease. If this year was a punt, they wouldn’t have signed Gray and they would have waited until next year to sign a TOR arm.
Every statement they have made indicates they want to rebound as a franchise after an embarrassing 2023. If they are punting on this year we should expect them to trade Goldschmidt. Until that happens, we can only assume they intend to chase a playoff spot.
Gibson didn’t really suck
They are waiting to sign a TOR until next year. Gary was a PR move. He doesn’t do anything to make the team better than last year, he fills the hole left by Montgomery. They had to sign Gray. They made public statements to get three pitchers. One had to be someone like Gray. Holidays packs are on sale now and they needed him to sell those. They need ticket sales to bump attendance projects because last year showed people won’t go for a bad team. There are plenty of fans who think with Gray they are suddenly a division favorite. The need the ticket projections to sell in stadium advertising and Bally Spots Midwest advertising. With a signing like Gray those sponsorships don’t look too enticing to companies. They are making revenue generating moves, not winning ball game moves. If they were making win moves they would have waited in Gray until after making runs at Yamamoto and Snell. Gray could have very likely still been available at that time. The moves snd timing of those moves are purely business moves. Trading Goldschmidt could very well still the plan, but it won’t happen until closer to the season, again they need the ticket sales. Mozaliak is acting like a regular business GM not a baseball one.
not even close. I’m not getting all the Arenado trade talk. It does NOT make the Cardinals a better team. period
I find it interesting that after addressing two clear weaknesses (lack of rotation innings/lack of TOR arm) the team is still be criticized for having no competitive drive for this year. Making your team objectively better somehow equates to them not wanting to compete until 2025? These views are overly pessimistic, from my point of view. It is also interesting that reports of the team still trying to acquire Dylan Cease (another TOR arm) are bringing out these “Cardinals don’t REALLY want to compete” narratives as well.
You brought up Snell and Yamamoto: can the Cardinals only be serious about contending if they brought in one of those two arms and only pursued Gray as a consolation prize? This would be a bad move for a team with the market constraints of St. Louis. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for them to say:
1. We need a TOR arm
2. We like Snell and Yamamoto, but not at their price point since bigger markets will certainly outbid us
3. If we wait too long, we will miss out on another arm we like (Gray) as teams that missed out on Snell and Yamamoto make better offers then we are capable of
4. If we miss on Gray, it will be nearly impossible to acquire a TOR arm as prices rise to astronomical levels
5. The most reasonable move is to sign Gray now to ensure we at least get one TOR arm
Its just interesting to me how the team can make moves to objectively improve (even if the moves aren’t flashy) and then people assume that they are not attempting to at least win their division. And let’s be honest, it’s a very easy division to win, so they don’t have to do much. Once the playoffs come around, everyone has a puncher’s chance.
*As a side note, Gray is wayyy better than Monty. Gray is not merely a replacement.
They could trade Matz after acquiring Cease; he wouldn’t be hard to move. Or they could keep him as 6th starter and/or reliever. Decent chance one of Thompson/Liberatore would be moved in a Cease trade anyway.
Matz becomes the swingman they seem to want. It addresses your bullpen and rotation at the same time. Plus, you can put Matz back in the rotation next year if need be.
That’s a lot of work to do when simply not signing Lyn or Gibson would have been easier.
If you believe Mo, Lynn and Gibson were more opportunistic signings in that they came to the team early and expressed a desire to sign. So Cease may have always been a target and there’s no real reason for that to stop.
Just. Don’t. Trade. Gorman.
Just here to say that those Sox uniforms are dope.
The stache is what makes it pop
When will these rumors Cease?
@Little Stevie, Dylan Carlson and Brendan Donovan, likely gets it done for Dylan Cease.
Package Carlson, Burleson, and an MLB ready starter or two from Memphis. The Whitesox need young pitching as much as position players.
If you go by trade simulator here is a deal that is fair
Liberatore
Burleson
Graceffo
McGreevy
Matz
Matz can be dealt somewhere else in a 3 team deal.
I still don’t see it happening but that’s roughly what it would take.
I would do that in a heartbeat. I think more likely Carlson, Edman or Donovan will be part of that. Maybe even two of those guys. Along with a couple pitching prospects. Just don’t trade Gorman or Walker.
I’d probably see if I could keep Graceffo, but other than that, I’d make that trade. For two years of Cease with a possibility to extend? Sign me up.
The White Sox don’t need Edman he only has 2 years of control left. Carlson has 3 and Donovan has 4. That’s not what they need they need young guys with 6 plus years of control.
Looks like Dylan Cease is getting traded today. We got three articles on him this morning.
Cardinals are a joke the last few years. They have no vision.
Yes, cards have lots of outfielders and they all suck
So include Eloy with Cease and make it a package.
Adding another quality SP would be like a dream come true for Cardinal Nation. I just can’t see it happening, but I hope to be wrong.
First of all, everyone please stop citing trade rumors, the site is a joke.
A Cease trade to the Cardinals makes no sense unless they follow that up with a signing of Bellinger, Teoscar Hernandez, or Guerriel Jr. realistically two of the 3. They don’t have the offense to compete this year with out those additions, so they still aren’t a playoff team in 2024. Without the hitter additions, the offense in 2025 is even worse. I would expect Chase Davis to be a part of it though. Then Cease is a free agent after 2025. So if you aren’t going to be able to win games when you are certain to have the guy, what’s the point in getting him other then to boost ticket sales and sell more in stadium advertising and advertising in Bally Spprts Midwest, which is all the Sonny Gray signing was about.
Terrible takes, lots of ‘em.
Which one? All of Mozeliaks moves this far are to get through the year not to win. Maybe there is a lot more to come, but as things sit, they are the same team as last year, maybe slightly worse with the fall off from Goldschmidt I am certain will happen. The team needs significant offensive upgrades, only Contreras, Arenado and Gorman project to have more than 75 RBI. And that’s if Contreras played 120+, which I think will happen, but most seem to think it will be much less. 2years of Cease doesn’t make sense when it will take until 2025 for them to start to be competitive again, if they make the right moves between now and then. I’m fairly certain MO’s plan is to get the team through the year and step down a year early. Leaving is successor an empty canvas to paint with his kind of players, which includes hiring his coach as Marmol won’t make it through the season.
Gray doesn’t help u win? Haha
Not anymore the Montgomery did. He is a net neutral add. And as I already explained, purely a PR move.
Haha cy young runner up means nothing? Got it haha
Huh? Gorman, Walker, Winn and the rest of the young guys can reasonably be expected to continue improving since they’re all pre-peak age. How do you look at the roster and think the offense will be worse?
I don’t disagree but you’ll have to wait 4 years or so to see it. Do some research, rather before making blind statements. Baseballs top position player prospects have historically produced very similarly to what they did over their first 100 games. A lot of times, they perform that way over their entire career. They are already top level players when they debut. If they do show significant gains it happens around year for or five when they are 26-27 years old.
That was true 20-30 years ago. It isn’t now.
Guys develop much faster now than they did in the past. Walker isn’t going to stay a 116 wRC+ guy for 4 years then become a terror at age 26.
It’s historically true that guys who have successful seasons sub age 22 mature quickly and tend to improve very rapidly. Look at the jump Gorman made from year 1 to year 2. A similar jump for Walker has him as a 135 wRC+ guy at age 22. Another similar jump for Gorman has him has a 40 HR 130 wRC+ guy at age 23. You telling me he’ll hit 70 HRs at age 26?
I think what you’re saying was true 20-30 years ago. These players live and breath baseball from a very young age and train all season. Baseball has become a young players game, those with super star capabilities are up by 21-22 now 24-25z Look up Harper, Soto, Judge, Trout, Acuna Jr, Vlad Jr. you can pull up almost any of the position players that were top 50 prospects over the last decade and see that years 2-4 are pretty flat to their first 100 games. For many the majority of their career is pretty flat to that. They do all seem to have one monster year that stands out as an outlier.
This is exactly the trade the Cardinals need to make. More reliable than Glasnow, less money on the payroll, and virtually just as high of a ceiling.
1. Gray
2. Cease
3. Mikolas
4. Lynn
5. Gibson
– Matz
Hard to say this wouldn’t be the best rotation in the division.
Lol ! *easy to say. The reds, brewers, and cubs AAA teams will have better rotations than that.
You have better than gray at aaa? No wonder you can’t make the playoffs
Carlson/Donovan/Gorman – these are all three slightly different clones of the same guy, right? Not sure who STL cloned them from, but that guy doesn’t do any one thing exceptionally well. Should have chosen someone like Arenado or Goldschmidt.
You can take Gorman out of the list and add Edmon, Nootbaar, and Victor Scott Jr. Gorman’s numbers last year project 100+ RBI over 162. None of those guys come close to that. Walker only projects to 70-75 so you could even through him into your list because that’s all you’ll get from him the next 3 year, maybe even his career.
Projections are often based on the last few seasons. So of course, someone who has done it before, would be projected more often to do it again.
I don’t get the fascination with 75 rbi, 100rbi. In your world, why not focus on projected runs for a player?
It’s easier to understand that runs aren’t the end all be all.
You need runs to win games don’t you? With this rotation you’ll need to at least 5-6 runs on a consistent basis to out score the opponents. The team was 4th in the NL central in runs scored last year. Runs kind of are the end all be all.
With Cease. Over/under 85?
Over easily. Much better than 71-91.
So Winn, Hence, plus one more gets it done ? Idk, I don’t see them lining up
That would be a huge overpay.
Without significant offense upgrades to go with it, under. Cease will add additional 5-6 wins, but the offense will be worse than last year so probably a very similar record to 2023. With out Cease they could easily be closer to a 100 loss team.
You should be on the home psychic hotline.
You probably thought the same thing when I was adamant the team would finish well behind the brewers and the cubs in the NL central too. So maybe I should, or maybe I have a slightly know what I’m talking about.
The is zero chance the 2024 offense is worse than it was last year.
The rotation is more stable, players who were younger/new and out of position will improve, and the perfect storm of so many different ways the Cards found to lose will not be an issue.
This isn’t a perfect team and the front office leaves a lot to be desired, but the team isn’t upgrading offense because it simply does not need to.
Position players with more than 100 games played don’t usually tend to have significant improvements year over year. And when they do they normally regress back down after that one stand out year.
I mean they could just admit that their free agent signings were terrible but linking themselves to Cease is better PR..
Any discussion for Cease begins with Gorman plus.
No team will just give up that caliber of player with that much control for the garbage cardinal fans are willing to stomach. You’re now selling Tyler O’Neil and Dylan Carlson for pennies and are likely to get some scrub reliever for one or the other
What is your deal fella?
He’s a sad, angry person.
I’d be all in on trading any one or a combination of Baker, Burleson ,Carlson and or Liberatore to land Cease.
See. This is what I’m talking about. Why would the Whitesox or any team for that matter trade for any of those players?
Liberatore is not an mlb pitcher. They just continue to run him out there to try and make the Aronzarena trade not look so lopsided.
Burleson might give a team a part time DH when their regular DH is out. He’s a bench player. That’s it.
Carlsons value is so low now, he’s not bringing anything but a reliever. He would have years ago before St Louis ruined him.
Baker is a career minor leaguer. End of story
Start putting names like Walker, Gorman, Donovan, Edman, and Hence up if you want a return of significance.
I have a higher opinion of Burleson. He unfortunately is a player the cards for some reason won’t give a chance like Arozerina. But otherwise I completely agree with you.
Carlson was ruined by the Cardinals? I didn’t realize they messed up his wrist and ankle, both of which are healthy now. He’ll be fine and hopefully playing CF every day for St. Louis.
I don’t care if he’s healthier than he’s ever been. I don’t care if he starts some offseason program making him the fastest player in MLB. I don’t care if he retools his swing and can hit 40HR from either side of the plate. He’s not liked by the manager enough to play everyday. If you’re not part of Marmol’s Cartel, you sit.
*See also Tyler O’Neil and Harrison Bader.
Yankees gave Monty for Vader sooo
Jordan Walker please. Cease for Walker straight up.
You’re adorable.
No.
Even as a White Sox fan who’d love that, I know there’s no way it’ll happen. Walker would be untouchable in any deal not involving Robert.
I see often that any deal begins with Nolan Gorman. Really? Who do the other teams have that’s comparable to Gorman AND they’re willing and able to include in a deal for Cease? Yeah, that’s what I thought. The Cardinals have a lot they can offer that can/will match any deals and not give up Gorman, Walker or Winn.
Yeah. So much talent they lost 91 games with it.
Infallible logic. They lost 91 games therefore have no talented players. You can’t believe half of the stuff that you spew on here can you?
Part of that was letting waino try for 200 none of that this year so clear upgrade
I don’t believe the Cards will part with Gorman, but it’s not an unreasonable request. Also agree on them not giving up Walker. Winn would probably be in play, but Donovan suits the Sox’ needs better as a 2B. Something like Donovan and Hence gets it close. Might need to add in one more to beat out other teams’ offers.
wouldn’t hate Winn, Liberatore, and Carlson for Cease. Sox fans probably think that’s too light and Cards fans probably think that’s too heavy.
They can always add O;Neil to a trade, Marmol , does not like him , we all know that , and since he’s prone to injury , he’s not much of a loss.
As a Sox fan, it’s not bad, though I expect another bidding team would beat that.
Drop the best and worst ERA years.
Cease only has a ERA of around 4.25. That is a #3 in the rotation.
A trade with Cleveland for The “bebr” would be a lot more bang for your buck. Da bebr is solid #2 in the rotation.
Keep Cease in Chi town.
Despite the down year, Cease finished 18th in baseball in pitcher fWAR, ahead of Corbin Burnes, despite pitching fewer innings. And Bieber is not as reliable. Cease leads pitchers in starts over the last four years, while Bieber has missed time in two of those seasons. Bieber would probably be cheaper, though, so there’s that.
He’s at least 5 years too young to pitch for the Cards.
Top 3 matches in terms of available talent to match the Sox’s needs are Cards, Dodgers, and Orioles. I hope the Sox don’t play chicken until the O’s are the only team out of the 3 that still need a pitcher. We’ll see…
I think you’ve forgotten the Reds. Glut of young IF talent, which the Sox desperately need. I think they match up as well as anyone.
Reds too!
i wouldnt be suprsied to see desperate mozliak go all in on a risky cease
You heard it here first- next worst to first couple to match the snakes and rangers: White Sox v Cardinals!
Dylan Cease is too young for the Cardinals.
Go after Bieber