After finishing third in AL Cy Young voting in 2022, Alek Manoah had a disastrous 2023 season, posting a 5.87 ERA over 87 1/3 innings while suffering a significant loss of control. Manoah’s hellish year included a month-long stint in the Florida Complex League to try and solve his sudden mechanical issues, as well as a later option to Triple-A Buffalo in August that didn’t result in any actual pitching appearances with the Bisons.
With all this in mind, it perhaps isn’t surprising that rival executives have told The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal that “the Blue Jays are open to moving” Manoah in a trade, and teams have made calls in general asking about Toronto’s rotation depth. Of course, teams are often willing to listen on virtually any player, so it isn’t clear if Toronto is merely doing its due diligence in not dismissing offers for Manoah, or if the Jays are actively shopping Manoah in some regard.
It’s difficult to call Manoah a true trade candidate given the still somewhat mysterious nature of his down year. Some type of injury seemed to be a factor, as Jays GM Ross Atkins said in October that Manoah received a PRP injection to treat some shoulder discomfort. Manoah also went through some medical testing during his stint in Buffalo, but there were also reports of some hard feelings between Manoah and the team, perhaps regarding how the minor league option might’ve cost Manoah enough service time to claim Super Two status.
Only the Jays and Manoah himself have an idea of his status heading into 2024, or if even that might still be unclear until Manoah gets some offseason or Spring Training work under his belt. Obviously no team is going to pay a big price for Manoah without having more understanding of what exactly is plaguing the 25-year-old right-hander, so that alone limits Toronto’s leverage in any trade discussions.
By that same token, if Manoah just needs to get healthy, it is possible he could enjoy a swift return to form. Should such a bounce-back happen, the Blue Jays obviously want to benefit, rather than selling low on Manoah and then watching him rebound on another club. That said, “selling low” is still better than selling for nothing, and another mediocre season might ruin Manoah’s trade value entirely. Manoah’s rough season is just one season, and rival teams might feel they have an answer to Manoah’s mechanical problems, or that a trade itself might get Manoah on track if there is indeed bad blood between the righty and Jays management.
MLBTR’s Darragh McDonald recently speculated that the Blue Jays and Cardinals might line up on a Manoah trade, perhaps involving such past Jays trade targets as Dylan Carlson, Lars Nootbaar, or Brendan Donovan. With Carlson and Tyler O’Neill both struggling for the last two seasons after some early success in their MLB careers, the Cards and Jays could theoretically explore moving two “sell low” candidates for each other, hoping that mutual change of scenery would benefit all parties. St. Louis is one of many teams looking for pitching this winter, and with the Jays having a wide array of holes to fill in the lineup, several clubs could be fits if Manoah was indeed available.
The other question about a Manoah trade is how it would impact Toronto’s rotation. Kevin Gausman, Chris Bassitt, Jose Berrios, and Yusei Kikuchi are set as the top four, with Manoah being the favorite for the fifth spot though Atkins made no guarantees. If teams are asking about the Blue Jays’ pitchers in general, any of Bowden Francis, Mitch White, Wes Parsons, or even Kikuchi could be available at the right price. Such a deal involving another pitcher would imply that Toronto is confident Manoah can bounce back, or that the Jays are perhaps exploring acquiring another pitcher for more stability at the back end of the pitching staff.
Manoah showed up to camp extremely out of shape. He looked completely unbalanced and he lost his form. I predict he puts his work in this off season and returns to the mound as a Jay in 2024. I expect him to be a useful rotation piece again
@Skell 2 he might be the only guy in the MLB to be able to out eat Vogelbach at the after game buffet
He doesn’t strike me as the type of professional who will just get back to work and show up in physical or mental shape next spring. The Roy Halladay story got thrown around a lot this year but Manoah is not that dude at all from a maturity standpoint. He is 26 but acts like an entitled teenager. I hope I’m wrong but when guys fail to report when they get sent down because they are hurting the big club that doesn’t speak ‘put in the offseason work’ to me.
You’re right about him coming back next year as a Jay. They have no reason to dump him for nothing right now unless they are just sick of dealing with him. He’s basically free.
This story is more of the Jays putting Manoah on notice. He’s got too much talent for them just to dump him while his stock is so low.
I’m not buying all the hype that Alec Manoah and the Jays had a falling out or that Alec’s maturity level is that of an entitled teenager.
This notion got splashed around by the media as a possibility but nothing was ever confirmed. The media tends to sensationalize or drum up ideas especially when there’s intrigue just to garner clicks.
This is nothing more than that in my opinion. Why are we seeing articles being written on speculation from “rival” gms?
To me, this is click stunt for readers or an attempt to pot stir by these “rivals”. Nothing more.
My guess – Manoah stays a blue jay and competes for a fifth starter spot. He’s already shown he’s in better shape already so the idea he can’t or won’t is off too.
twitter.com/adam_la2karis/status/17171878164786914…
@good vibes only You would be wrong on that. He has a chip on his shoulder and has been working hard. A few videos in that link showing his workouts. He is already looking slimmer and it is still very early in offseason.
Everyone should take a look at the video. That last workout segment looks like something I should steal.
Anyway, he seems pretty dislikeable, but I always root for comeback stories. Maybe better fitness will get his head back into a good space.
JaysFan,
I was about to post the same thing, With his success in 21 and 22 this past season was a big wake up call for him , and I am confidant he will respond to it well. Manoah was guilty of trying to get by on talent alone and did not put in the work last off season. Reminds me of Vlad in the 2020 off season- he put in the work heading into 21 and he had a monster year. Like you said Manoah has a chip and he will want to prove he is one of the best young pitchers in baseball.
Like I said above I hope you guys are right. I still have doubts about his maturity but he may have turned a corner. I watched the video. He does look slimmer. Thanks for sharing. Should be a fun story to follow through Spring Training. My favorite series of the year is when the Blue Jays come to Seattle so I hope this guy at his peak is part of the talent on the field.
There is actually a 2nd video on that link if you scroll down a bit.
The 2nd part was good too. He looks a lot more fat-fit. Some heave folks waddle when they walk, and some have that offensive line look to them. This looks better than what I saw last year.
Definitely looks better than he did last year
He also was a minor league bushwacker? Got called up after like 30 minor league innings? Mike Leake was similar? He also suffered a massive decline in production once the league had the “book” on him? Pitchers don’t need to be in great shape to be effective? Curt Schilling had a really great post season in 04? Lance Lynn loves his Poterhouses… and then there’s Bartolo Colon….? Who could ever forget “big sexy”
I love how you ended every sentence in your post with a question mark except for the final one, which was the only sentence that was in fact an actual question.
Wth is up with all the question marks?
Nobody knows? Maybe they really likes them? Do you think he over used them
Agreed. He should have been held back in extended spring training to get in shape. Giving him the Opening Day assignment was a mistake.
ma NO ah
If you outweight your best career season’s ERA, you should probably be on the Biggest Loser working out rather than pitching at the MLB level. Food is just food, its not your friend. After you make your millions, then you can go eat all the triple bacon cheeseburgers you want. Especially as a pitcher, hes not going to last long at this weight. Some people might bring up Bartolo Colon but he was on PEDs for who knows how long. He obviously has an eating disorder. Making millions to lose weight is the biggest insentive other than dying in the world. He should put his money where his mouth is rather then a whole pepperoni sausage pizza
Seriously, who do you think you are?
Fat shaming is not cool. Fat shaming someone you don’t even know is pathetic.
His weight is the exact reason his conditioning & mechanics went sideways. Even Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn, Sr. lost a step on his defense later in his career due to the exact same reasons. Fat shaming, when you are gambling your earning potential and your family’s future is okay. The dude needs an intervention. He’s a wonderful talent who’s throwing it away due to poor discipline. The biggest reason the world is the way it is now is there’s not enough shame being thrown around. “No Freedom of Judgment” works both ways Gen Z.
Cb1984
“His weight is the exact reason his conditioning & mechanics went sideways.”
Citation requested
“Even Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn, Sr. lost a step on his defense later in his career due to the exact same reasons. ”
Citation requested
“The biggest reason the world is the way it is now is there’s not enough shame being thrown around”
Citation requested
“Fat shaming, when you are gambling your earning potential and your family’s future is okay. The dude needs an intervention”
Citation requested
Now, everyone reading this knows that you won’t answer.
You won’t answer because you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re talking completely out of your [donkey].
Maybe you’ll feel some shame for being called out for that, and you’ll change.
Probably, you’ll insist that you’re right, bit still provide no evidence that you are, try some sparky comeback and get further entrenched in your dumb ideas.
Filihok- taking the joy out of MLbTR since 1977
Obey… and listen to Taylor Swift…
Citation requested
====================
Okay, say there is $1M on the table. You get the entire $1M if you guess correctly.
A) His weight problem has something to do with his performance issues.
B) His weight has nothing to do with his performance issues.
You are choosing A, as is all 7B people on this planet.
Excuse the rant, but we have entire industries dedicated to promoting the theory that being fat, and oftentimes obese, is fine. It is the equivalent of social promotions where Johnny gets promoted to the 6th grade without being able to read or add a column of numbers. Because we don’t want to hurt hurt his self-esteem. Even thought real life is cruel and intolerant.
JB
“guess”
I hear you loud and clear
“Excuse the rant, but we have entire industries dedicated to promoting the theory that being fat, and oftentimes obese, is fine. It is the equivalent of social promotions where Johnny gets promoted to the 6th grade without being able to read or add a column of numbers. Because we don’t want to hurt hurt his self-esteem. Even thought real life is cruel and intolerant.”
Hilarious
“We need to insult children’s self-esteem” so we they will be prepared for when we insult their self-esteem when they are adults.”
What if, and stick with me, telling a kid who can’t read read that they are dumb isn’t the best way to get them to read.
And what if telling people with weight problems that they are disgusting pigs isn’t the best way to get them to deal with their problem?
Right, Joe? I know you’re a brilliant MLBTR commenter. And a fine and beautiful person.
Of course you are mis-reading it. In the Catholic Church, they have an approach of “love the sinner, but hate the sin”. Maybe you are one of the people that would prefer to not be told that you cannot read, or not be told that you are headed for diabetes, and new knees.
Of course you can be sensitive about it. But here’s the thing, and there is no getting around it. Kids that can’t read, know they can’t read, and they feel dumb, even if you want to spare their feelings.
And people that are fat, already know they are fat. A doctor telling them they are fat isn’t going to change their self-esteem.
JB
Ahh…yes the Catholic Church
Where everything is great and nobody ever faces any trauma. No irreparable damage to people’s psyches is done
And that’s ignoring all the child molestation
Who would Jesus cast the first stone at?
[Damn] hypocrites
Get the Catholic church the [hell] out of here is what I’m saying
Anyway
It’s possible to talk about something without shaming them for it
And it’s pretty sad if you’re unaware of that. I wish people had treated you better, Joe.
If a doctor calls you fat, you should get up and walk out of the office and report them immediately.
If they tell you the potential health concerns you are facing, discusses their causes with you, and how to resolve those issues you have a doctor who meets the bare minimum requirements.
Imagine thinking that telling a kid who feels dumb that they are dumb is the best way forward. Christ on a stick
Citation requested = I don’t do the work or pay attention.
Imagine thinking that telling a kid who feels dumb that they are dumb is the best way forward.
==============================
Promoting a kid who can’t read (assuming it is not a mental issue) will only hurt the kid.
Telling a fat person that they are in fine shape will only hurt that person.
This is the same for every type of problem. Don’t worry about the bottle of Jack or the case of Heineken. Don’t worry about that pack of Camels.
Honestly, if you don’t want your doctor to tell you to change your habits, what’s the point of going to the doctor?
i_h
“Citation requested = I don’t do the work or pay attention.”
I did the work. I was right. You were wrong.
It also said you like the taste of orange juice after you brush your teeth.
Tell me that mid-school science was the end of your understanding without telling me
If you can’t see why it’s the obligation of the person making you claim to support the claim, just say so.
JB
“Promoting a kid who can’t read (assuming it is not a mental issue) will only hurt the kid.”
Somewhat agreed. We need massive changes to our education system. One of them is putting children in grades by age instead of by ability.
“Telling a fat person that they are in fine shape will only hurt that person.”
Telling people who are not in fine shape that they are in fine shape isn’t, in most circumstances, ideal
Not every fat person is in bad shape.
I’d advise you to look into health coaching. You obviously know nothing about it and are stuck some decades back in your thinking.
“This is the same for every type of problem. Don’t worry about the bottle of Jack or the case of Heineken. Don’t worry about that pack of Camels.”
No one is saying that. This dumb idea is the product of YOUR mind.
The point is that these things are usually the symptoms of another problem. That’s what needs to be treated.
“Honestly, if you don’t want your doctor to tell you to change your habits, what’s the point of going to the doctor?”
Again, join us in this decade.
A doctor should never tell you what to do.
They should present the information to you and let you make your own decision.
I guess some people have stunted psychological and intellectual growth and need their parents, doctors and sky daddies to tell them what to do.
The rest of us can make our own decisions.
Now, that doesn’t mean that people don’t sometimes need help and encouragement.
“I did the work”.
Citation needed. Failing of the Maury Povich lie detector.
I_h
Muted
“Not every fat person is in bad shape…. No one is saying that. This dumb idea is the product of YOUR mind.”
===================
It goes without saying that fat people could running 5 miles a day, Or someone could drink every day and be fine.
But unfortunately, that is not usually the case. 41.9% of Americans classify as obese. That’s going on half. 38.4M Americans have diabetes, and 97.6M are pre-diabetic.
@maxim1 I’m at the gym 4-5 times a week while eating a balanced diet and while working a full time job. Hes an “athlete” that gets paid millions of dollars to perform, he should be in shape. If an average joe like me can do it, it shouldn’t be hard for this “athlete”. Plus he gets around 4 months off to do whatever he wants to do and during the season hes pitching once every 5 to 6 days. I wish I could only work one day a week like him, heck he didn’t even show up to his first minor league outing. He was blessed with amazing genetics. If he was 5 feet tall he’d be working in McDonalds right now saying “May I take your order” while being barely even able to fit through a doorway
RE
LFGM
Lucy”CWaA”.jpeg
I am not so motivated, but I get to the gym when I can. I am eagerly looking forward to retirement, when I can (hopefully) get there every morning.
I find it ironic that people are against fat shaming, yet they’re perfectly willing to shame people for plenty of other things all the time.
Funny how you people are never on your high horse about those who discriminate against the neurodivergent community. Or those with actual physical handicaps.
But fat shaming, that’s the bridge too far.
njbf
“Funny how you people are never on your high horse about those who discriminate against the neurodivergent community. Or those with actual physical handicaps.”
Why on earth do you think that’s true?
99% of the time, it is not “fatshaming”. For some reason, society can talk about smoking, drug use, alcohol, mental issues and decline, cancer. We can even talk about diet and exercise. Gun deaths and drug overdoses pale in comparison, but we can’t talk about being fat.
We cannot even use the word “fat”. So here it is: My name is Joe and I am fat. I need to lose 20 pounds. I’m fat because my diet is sub-optimal and I exercise less than I should.
JB
“99% of the time, it is not “fatshaming”. ”
I disagree
I’m sure people have been telling your for years how stupid your comments are, but, I don’t see you making any effort to make them any better. And I’m sure my comment will be just the one to make you realize it and change, right?
Okay, I’m gonna take a very measured approach here…
Dear njbirdsfan:
Around these MLBTR comment section parts, people are never on their high horses, or their low horses about neuro divergence because it never comes up. It’s not a factor in the game.
As an athletic endeavor, sports is all about conditioning- conditioning being the way a player approaches their physical well being and their skill sets- training their body to be durable for the repetitive stress of their position- such as pitching. Training their body to be strong and durable and flexible- because throwing takes a lot of power, hitting takes a lot of power and the body isn’t naturally built to do what sports players do on a constant basis at maximum effort.
Working out, getting into very good shape and maintaining your body in that condition tends to keep players healthier and tends to extend their careers and their successes on the field.
So being out of shape is something that there’s no real excuse for if you’re a professional athlete. It’s all about personal choices, personal responsibility and priority- losing some excess weight from fat or gaining some additional weight from lean muscle mass, which generally improves the power and speed aspects of a players’ performance, means the body is taxed less just by existing and moving around- let alone making athletic efforts.
This in turn leads to fewer injuries and more sustainable high levels of effective playing- so when a player’s performance suffers and they become bad at their job when they were once very good at their job and the most obvious change in their profile is the condition of their body- that they gained excess belly fat, that they lost muscle mass, that they didn’t practice their movements in the off season to keep their body ready and able to do the work load that the season demands of them- it’s worth pointing out that they could have avoided that and they chose to not mitigate that risk and possibility.
Neuro Divergence has, as far as I know, basically never come up in baseball as a factor of any sort for any professional athletes that are on a national level.
There have been quirky players, players suffering from depression, players dealing with ADHD or anxiety disorders or what have you- mental health issues, but not neuro divergence.
So I am sensitive to your sensitivities, but they are misplaced in this context.
Actually, I always give disagreeing remarks their due diligence. Not that I always agree with them, but the only way to learn is to read the remarks and think about whether or not they are right.
I preach the same thing at work. There is nothing more wasteful than a bunch of smart people nodding their collective heads that everything is great, when clearly things aren’t great. Is it a road to failure.
Do you need a tissue? Alec says thanks Maxim1, for a getting offended at a comment made about me, on a message board…wow have we as a society gotten soft.
“Fat shaming” my arse. He’s ostensibly a pro athlete. Unless you’re Rick Reuschel, if you show up a biscuit away from 350, that is a problem. This dude should be in the gym every day. He’s got a big league arm and great stuff. Needs a lifestyle change.
Vlee
“Fat shaming” my arse. He’s ostensibly a pro athlete. Unless you’re Rick Reuschel, if you show up a biscuit away from 350, that is a problem. This dude should be in the gym every day. He’s got a big league arm and great stuff. Needs a lifestyle change.”
Wut?
Are you saying its ok to fat shame someone who is a professional athlete? Why would you say that?
“This dude” should do whatever he wants
Oh, he’s going to be doing something alright. Something like flipping burgers. It’s like saying “I’m going to be a Navy Seal”. Well, a goal without a plan is a wish. This dude wishes he can be an MLB pitcher. Not looking like he does he won’t. The Seals wouldn’t even take him seriously looking like he does. Neither do MLB hitters.
vlee
I’d be willing to be that this dude works harder than you ever have at anything in your life. He’s also almost certainly more successful
So, enjoy flipping your burgers, or whatever else it is that you do while you’re pretending you are superior to Manoha
Miss the point much? I never said I was superior to anyone. I merely made the casual observation that the dude was adding weight at a rate roughly equal to the rate of his downwardly mobile career. Shooting the messenger? Tsk tsk tsk. Shame on you.
Glee
So, you agree that you’re inferior to him in almost every way?
Seriously who do you think you are?
Look up David Wells.
David Wells was 250-260 and he had a rubber arm. And he has a ring.
A pepperoni sausage pizza actually sounds pretty good right now lol
Carlson, Burleson and something else for Manoah. The Cardinals need high upside pitching and that’s certainly what he is even if there is a lot of risk.
Ridciulous to give up that much to get a problem pitcher. Carlson alone with worth much more than Manoah. Not even sure Burleson straight up for Manoah is even a viable trade. Not even a fan of Burleson having said that.
Problem pitcher who was a Cy Young contender in 2022 and making league minimum with 4 years of team control left. High risk high reward. Cardinals wouldn’t miss Carlson and Burleson not sure why you think they would.
Disagree. I’m a cardinals fan and Carlson doesn’t have the same amount of team control. Costs more. And his MLB peak has not reached that of Manoah.
I think carlson has a higher floor, but manoah has a higher ceiling. at worst carlson is a solid, cheap 4th outfielder that can play D at any OF position and be on the weak side of a platoon. he will almost for sure be in the majors the next 8-10 years. Manoah could be what many teams need toward the top of the rotation, but he could also be pretty much done as a major leaguer.
That’s fair, but there’s also a lot more risk with Manoah than Carlson. The risk lowers his value to make the two players fairly comparable in a trade. If anything is added to Carlson, it shouldn’t be more than a very minor piece.
Just my 2 pence, not being a fan of either team.
Carlson has averaged 2.6 bWAR over the past three years, with three years of control left. 2.6 * 3 = 8.4
Manoah averaged 5.9 bWAR for 21/22, with four years of control elft. 5.9 * 4 = 23.6. Factor in a 50 risk assessment, and he is worth 11.8 bWAR.
I would make Manoah more valuable, but more importantly, StL needs SPs more than position players.
I’m not convinced that halving Manoah’s average bWAR from 21/22 is the right way to assess his future value.
His 2024 zips projection was 3.8 fWAR at the start of 2023. It declined to 2.6 halfway through 2023. It might (probably?) be even worse now.
I assume it declined, but I was basically looking to see what a healthy Carlson and Manoah might look like. There is no doubt in my mind that the ‘good’ Manoah is worth quite a bit more than the ‘bad’ Manoah.
burleson is going to be a 300 hitter with 35 to 40 doubles a year, i believe he is goldys replacement
I am also open to being traded to other teams and also cannot pitch.
How brazen and gutsy of them to be “open to” offers. Whoopty freakin dooo!!! Who on earth would want this schlep!!!
All 29 other teams would take a reclamation project, pre-arb guy only a year removed from a Cy Young caliber season. All 29, without hesitation.
Dshires4, If the Dodgers wanted him, who would they have to give up?
I was thinking dodgers too. They have the staff to get him back in track. Vargas in trade?
a swap of Gavin Stone might make sense. he had a pretty rough year as well but was a highly touted prospect coming into the season. that being said, not sure I would touch Manoah with a 39 and a half foot pole right now
Carlson, Nootbar, O’Niel, Donovan, Edman, Scott. Ross Atkinson, pick any two you want and send Manoah back.
I don’t think it would take one of those guys much less any two to get Manoah. Several of these guys 1-1 would be massive overpays.
He was a Cy Young candidate last year and is young. Pitching is worth more than hitting.
I get it but he’s also completely busted until he proves otherwise. Seems like he is working hard at the moment but we shall see come spring. Right now his trade value is virtually zero
I surely hope they would. They are all underwhelming players. And all pretty similar players. No pop in the bats, stats look better than their actual play. Cardinals grow these league replacement level players on trees.
Donovan and Nootbar.
Ah, great
The idiots are going to make fat jokes
No reason to make jokes, I agree, but his conditioning & discipline are of serious concern. Especially fir his future as a Major Leaguer.
I am sure Alex appreciates you standing up for him. He may even ask you be your friend. You’re his hero.
RE wcf
“I am sure Alex appreciates you standing up for him. He may even ask you be your friend. You’re his hero.”
Hmm
Let’s see if I can make an equally stupid comment
I’m sure Alex appreciates everyone’s concern about his weight. He may even ask to be your friend, you’re his hero
How’d I do?
2/10. Give it another shot.
wcf
Sorry
I underestimated how hard it is to make such a stupid comment
If another team can get him and right his head and arm, he’s a steal…
The guy is stubborn and doesn’t really listen to anyone. So that’s a big if….
That’s a lot of ifs for me to give up anything of substance talent wise if I’m a GM of another team! I’d certainly take a flier but not for any prospects that Toronto thinks they are going to poach.
@Hiredgun
If another team gets him and his head and arm can’t be fixed, it could cost a GM his job. Trade you Austin Meadows for him?
Ya never know, maybe there’s a coach out there who sees him as worth the risk. As for Meadows, nothing wrong with stepping back and figuring out what is going on in the old coconut…
I’d take a chance.He had an enormous Schanzstucker!! Whoof!!
It’s nice to see the guy that said Cole can’t pitch without sticky stuff struggle while the man he told to “walk past the audi sign next time” wins a Cy Young. Oh glorious day!
Cole seemed to use sticky stuff.But then a lot pf pitchers seem to be doing. They are hiding it better.
Based on what evidence, the fact that your favorite player is striking out more? Stop it he proved it fair and square.
I just think about the way this guy talked about himself and the league vs the way someone like Judge talked going into his second year in the league after his break out season- humble, aloof, not publicly focused on his place or his eventual contract etc.
The guys who talk like this, I think deep down they know they’re a flash in the pan or they’re getting lucky as much as they are succeeding on skill and talent.
They want to secure the bag before the they hit that fatigue/league figures them out wall and that’s what happened here. He hit a wear and tear wall, he hit a wall of the league figuring him out and he hit a wall with his body coupled with poor conditioning-all because of zero humility.
Now don’t get me wrong- I think it’s a little silly these guys pretend in the press that it’s not about money, that they are oblivious to their finances, that it’s about all this other stuff, that they don’t pay attention to any of the business stuff and just play ball- that’s BS.
But there have been so so so many one season wonders that you’d think someone with a massively successful rookie season would take the “let’s see how the best season or two plays out” approach and keep a balanced tone in the media, because if and when this happens like with Manoah-a total implosion-they look that much sillier for their hubris.
I can’t help but think of former Blue Jay Jose Bautista openly turning down 6 years/$150M and discussing it in the press as an insult only to wind up only playing couple of more years and only and another $22M or something like that before retiring, when he could’ve been just a little humble and earned himself an extra $130M.
Remember the Profar.
Did Jurickson Profar do the same thing? Talk big and bold and then not live up to his own hype? I forget. I know he is one of those guys who have been discussed with the biggest hype possible, only to be relatively mediocre or underwhelming for all that hype.
I know he had to pick up a $7.75M player option that he thought or people thought was a foregone conclusion to decline in order to easily secure that like 8 year/$220M sized mega deal and now he’s a borderline “camp invite on minor league contract with a $1.5M major league split contract” type of player.
Also one more addendum: I believe Bautista was actually the one who supposedly demanded 5 years/$150M and the Blue Jays wouldn’t meet that and maybe offered him like 4 years/$100M or 5 years/$100M? So really he lost out on like $78M in additional money, not $128M. Not much of a difference in the context of the situation, but still wanted to clarify in the light of day and while on my computer instead of typing on my phone.
Even in 2022, his peripherals were not great. League-average whiff rate, but he was great at inducing soft contact. But there was danger – he had a 25th percentile ground ball rate.
In retrospect, he had the EXACT profile of “if his stuff gets 10% worse, he might fall off a cliff”.
I think it’s worthwhile to look for pitchers with good contact profiles but poor GB% and whiff rates and see if they have a tendency to fall off.
Excellent analysis
Will you take Rengifo for him?
Wouldn’t mind monoah and biggio for rengifo and prospects
Blue Jays would be selling low but perhaps getting him off the roster is more important than the return
Nothing worse than bad blood between the front office and players. Damage that has been done is rarely repaired but can happen. When told to report to AAA Manoah should have done so. Sadly I think it would be best for both sides to cut losses and move on from each other. A change might be necessary for both parties to move forward. Negative vibes between players and the FO also affect the Team in many ways which is not conducive to a winning lineup. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Interesting guy. His career data, including minors suggests he’s an okay pitcher but not an ace. He might need to consider converting to the pen. I hope he can get back in shape and help contribute in the majors in the future.
GB% of 37.9% and kwERA of approximately 3.503, the calculated GBkwERA is approximately 4.65.
He’s only got 9 minor league starts prior to this year and they were excellent. He definitely looked no worse than a #3 based on any of his ML data also. He’d been a plus control and soft contact guy more so than a dominant K P.
“Hey is this phone working?”, said the Toronto GM.
I would take trade offers if I were them too.
Looks like a talented player lacking a strong work ethic. Hopefully my team passes
I didn’t know the Jays called him back up from the instructional league yet??..
Jonathan Lucroy for Manoah.
Who says no?
Jonathan Lucroy is retired so.. I think Lucroy says no
It seems like every single “who says no?” Trade suggestion is pie in the sky lopsided and/or stuff like this where the other suggested player is retired or something.
The Jays won’t get an offer they like and then will proclaim “Manoah was never on the trade block; he’s our guy.”
LMAO “he’s our guy” hahahahahahah
Given Atkins trading record he will demand a 30yr old AA player in return.
In Detroit, HARRIS just cut Turnbull over a spat. He’s not out of shape, just recovering from TJ. Lack of communication between team and player is a sign of a poor front office. It’s their job to keep everyone on the same page. It’s almost as bad as not knowing which teams are on a no trade list.
Turnbull deserved to be cut. His pitching last year sucked and his attitude was worse. That one is not Harris’ fault. He screwed up with Erod but Erod didn’t help that situation either. Communication is a two way street.
If there was actually some critical coverage of the Jays from Canadian media, instead of that Sportsnet public relations garbage, we might better understand the situation. I agree with the poster above, this is most certainly not a Roy Halladay situation as frequently suggested by Sportsnet.
And, this PR machine is not helping the situation for either side.
Manoah needs to be humble and accountable.
The Blue Jays need to mend this fence and have a mentor ready for Manoah. Also, shape-wise, Vlad, Kirk and now Manoah, one would think the Jays would have learned something by now to never let this happen again. And again.
Jays are not in a position of strength here. No SP depth and Manoah’s value has dropped considerably. They can go after all the buy-low guys they want, they need to hold Manoah for the 5th spot and hope he pitches like a #2 or #3. Fix the relationship and show some belief in this kid.
Spoiled mama’s boy must go.
I think it all Depends on the value you get back. His value is at a low but his value could also drop to zero, at least some teams will still believe he can bounce back.
If a team offered me 70 cents on the dollar I would take it but if you get offered 30 cents on the dollar then better keep him and hope he bounces back even at the risk of getting nothing for him next trade deadline.
Not a single Atkins first round draft pick made the Jays ALWC roster… only Manoah and Pearson pitched for the team this year. That’s a poor record on drafting when the Twins featured three 1st round picks since 2016 (when Atkins made his first Jays pick in TJ Zeuch) on their playoff roster.
Atkins is the worst drafter of all time.
There were 4 major issues with Manoah last year and they are not rumors as they are well documneted.documented
1- He showed up to camp in very poor condition. You can make all the excuses you want, but Manoah did not put in the work in the off season and that had a cascading effect. Then, he let his attitude get in the way by being defensive and not just owning it.
2- He was seriously effected by the pitch clock. Manoah was/is a notoriously slow worker and he had a very hard time adjusting to it. The poor conditioning came into play because he had a hard time catching his breath between pitches. You could see him huffing and puffing all spring. Then, again, he got. defensive about it.
3- He hurt his shoulder. When? Why? How? All open for debate, but he did hurt his shoulder. Easy to speculate it had something to do with not being in shape. Again, let his attitude get in the way of owning it.
4- He had a poor attitude all season about everything. He wouldn’t own up to being poorly conditioned from the start and never accepted ownership of his situation.
Gausman said Manoah’s shoulder was bothering him in spring training.
Gausman’s taking up for his teammate. Might be true, might just be having his back and his shoulder was fine.
After reading all the comments.. it still boils down to shapiro and atkins the 2 Clowns will screw this situation up totally…..
Gre, you are right and the Jays front office really messed up big time when they obtained Springer, Bichette, Guerrero, Kirk, Chapman, Keirmeier, Varsho, Jansen, Teo, Gurriel and who would ever have Gausman, Berrios, Ryu, Kikuchi, Garcia, Hicks, Romero, plus prospects like Tideiman, Moreno, plus numerous other players. Those guys will never make the majors and no other teams want them either. Trade them all or release them and then the fans can’t condemn the front office for doing their jobs. The Jays aren’t going to have a billion-dollar payroll, putting superstars at every position and to believe they will or the front office is incompetent shows the incompetence of the fans, no one else.
You’re not getting anything for him, so why bother? Get him a treadmill and hope he bounces back.
Out of curiosity does anyone know how to unmute people? I seem to have somehow accidentally muted 1 or more people (it says there are comments from people I have muted, but I have never knowingly muted anyone).
Jaysfansince92
Under Profile, you will find your “list”
Just delete any you want to see again.
Might be a candidate for Cincy’s rotation at the right price. India perhaps? Huge upside for both.
In theory that kind of makes sense, but Jays dont need a 2B. They have an abundance of 2B in the minors and majors (Biggio, Schneider, Espinal…even if he should have been non-tendered). If they can find a corner OF or 3B in the vein of India, it could work.
I’d give Barrero straight up. Good “change of scenery” candidates for both sides
“That said, “selling low” is still better than selling for nothing, and another mediocre season might ruin Manoah’s trade value entirely.”
This is only true if you get something of value back that outweighs the risk of Manoah not being bad forever. If you can get a young decent piece at a position of need, it makes sense. But if you are selling just for the sake of selling it is dumb.
I have zero faith in Atkins.
This is one guy that was very much affected by the pitch clock
Manoah was one of the slowest workers in the MLB, if not the slowest before the pitch clock came into effect last year. I think having to get up on the mound and throw about 10 seconds quicker than his normal pace was the biggest reason for his downfall. His arm injuries can also be related to that as having to rush his delivery likely caused arm drag that put a strain on his shoulder and dead arm.
Not sure he’s the type of pitcher that will adjust his style enough to be successful in the MLB again, but at his age, it’s worth the buying low on him if there’s a pitching needy team out there that can take time to try and rehabilitate him.
Duh. He was terrible and a source of drama. Getting anything you can for him may be a win
I bet they are, lol.
One of things not mentioned here is that Manoah would yell at players after he struck them out. Some of these guys were closer to AAAA players than pros. That’s pure bullying.
He also led the league in HBP in his two full seasons, and likely would’ve again in 2023 had he had a chance.
There will be a lot of teams that won’t import animosity onto their team. TO won’t have many options.
To be fair though, multiple teams took on Trevor Bauer.
When this guy stayed at my hotel he ordered a TON of food that completely supports the notion he is out of shape.
I am not shaming him, I am just saying for a guy who was having a horrible season and was being called out for his physical shape he leaned into that heavily by ordering a ton of awful food every single night.
How hard is it to stick with a dietarily recommended portion of quinoa with baked chicken and spinach and then stick only to water and coffee and then hit the gym?
Why must we eat french fries, fried chicken, chicken fried steak, fried oreos, stuffed crust pizza and copious amounts of alcohol and soda?
Our bodies are our temples and we should treat them as such….
That might be an extreme exaggeration, but even so, it baffles my mind when athletes don’t try to stay in shape- that’s literally their job. It’s like someone in any other field going to those seminars to be updated the latest and newest approaches and philosophies in their field, etc.
That said- I think there are some guys who truly feel their talents are natural and raw and that working out or getting in or maintaining a more athletic shape and lifestyle would potentially negatively impact their game, that losing weight or gaining muscle would impact their mechanics and make them somehow less effective…
In Manoah’s case I think it was just laziness and arrogance and the belief he could coast on raw talent and luck for an entire career.
Fried chicken is good. That’s why
If only Chaim Bloom was still PBO in Boston. We’d be a lock to trade for Manoah.
Toronto is going take a hit on any deal. If they do trade him they would be smart to move him to the NL to remove seeing him to frequently. He may implode wherever he lands but if he rebounds the fans will take it out on ownership.
I could see the padres taking a gamble on him. Shouldn’t get much in return and he is cheap with some upside.
Straight up for Trent Grisham?
He may bounce back and have a great year but his issues about not reporting to the minors when demoted are an issue for me. You got lit up all season – eat some humble pie and if you’re right that you deserve to be in the Show, your results should prove it at AAA
Bring him to the Yankees and Gerrit Cole can teach him a thing or three about conditioning.
12 pack of Strohs would be about the right price.
A lot of mistakes made between Manoah and management.
Too many if they’re actively looking to trade a guy with Cy votes just one year ago now at the lowest point of his value after being demoted twice.
During Manoah’s breakout season the Blue Jays were limping their way to the finish line and both sides agreed to push his innings instead of shutting him down. (we missed by 1 game)
In the offseason Manoah and management were exploring a pay raise/arb buyout extension. Manoah balked at Jays’ offer, wanted more and the two camps shelved the idea.
This should’ve been the first warning sign
Fatigued arm that didn’t bounce back from long season.
Confidence loss/stress not reaching extension
Lack of command was always Manoah’s weakness,
his breaking stuff stayed middle middle and up
MPH loss meant teams could look breaking ball react fastball
He got shelled demoted.. shelled demoted.
and now they want to trade? For what? A change of scenery candidate?
Shapiro and Atkins are trying to offload the mistakes they have to look at everyday