Pirates general manager Ben Cherington met with members of the media (including Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) on Tuesday to discuss the upcoming offseason. Topics on the table included the team’s shortcomings in 2023, his plans for improving the roster over the winter, and Andrew McCutchen’s future with the club.
When asked about the Pirates’ midseason collapse following a hot start, Cherington didn’t mince words, suggesting that the team simply wasn’t good enough to contend across a full 162-game season. On that note, he emphasized that improving the team will be his “sole focus” over the offseason; in other words, the worst of the rebuilding years are over. Going forward, the Pirates are going to make an effort to compete. That doesn’t mean they’ll be serious contenders for the NL Central crown right away, and the executive acknowledged as much, but it certainly seems like his goal is to field a winning ballclub.
In terms of moves to improve the roster in 2024, the GM spoke about potential trades and free agent acquisitions. In terms of trades, Cherington said he isn’t taking anything off the table right now, and he’d be willing to make a significant trade if he saw it as the best way to upgrade the roster. As for free agents, he didn’t rule out the possibility of some signings, but he cautioned that he doesn’t want to “lean on free agency exclusively” as a means of improving the club. On a similar note, he drove home the point that the most meaningful improvements need to come from players already in the organization. That means young guys like Oneil Cruz, Ke’Bryan Hayes, Jack Suwinski, Henry Davis, Endy Rodríguez, Johan Oviedo, and Quinn Priester stepping up and continuing to grow. Cherington also said he would consider extensions for some of the more established contributors on the roster, including Mitch Keller and David Bednar.
While he didn’t get too specific about potential targets in free agency, Cherington did say he might be open to “a different type of target” than he has signed in the past. That could mean a bigger-impact type of player on a longer-term deal, although the GM’s answer was deliberately vague.
One particular impending free agent he could talk about, however, was McCutchen, who remains under contract with Pittsburgh until the conclusion of the World Series. The former MVP was enjoying his best season in years until he tore his left Achilles tendon in early September. Presumably, both sides would be amenable to a reunion in 2024. Cherington said he plans to meet with the beloved veteran in the coming days to discuss his future with the Pirates.
How did Liover Peguero look? Might he be a longterm answer or just backup guy at ss or 2b? I rarely watch the Pirates.
He had some very bright moments, but struggled in September. He’ll definitely be in the running during Spring for time at second base, assuming he isn’t traded.
Traded? Why would anyone want an unproven semi prospect? He’s not great defensively at SS or 2B. His bat had moments. Needs more time
He’s still a decent prospect in the Pirates’ system (at least was going into this year), and the middle infield market is bassically non-existent. I’m not saying he’s the best infield prospect of all time, but I could see a situation where the Pirates listen to offers on some of their young middle infielders, including Peguero, to try and add another pitcher.
Yes, but which one to trade, Peguero or Gonzales? They both had some good streaks and slumped, as all players will, especially 22 or 24 year old rookies. I think either will be average to above average long term 2B. Trade Gonzales since Peguero is a better SS option if Cruz doesn’t work out. Keep Triolo as super utility and good D.
Peguerro wasn’t a very good defensive shortstop, he would throw at times side arm and booted numerous balls trying to gather the hit ball with his bare hands
Ben could start by firing hitting coach Andy Haines, who’s been a failure in teaching the youngsters the strike zone
Then put Shelton on notice, the rebuild is over, it’s time to make significant strides and if not, fire Shelton too, even during the middle of the season
Stings the ball. But Ks a lot abd walks little. However he’s only 22
I think Peguero has the chops to stay in the majors. The issue will be for how long. Because once Termar comes up he is going to be a star.
Such a young age and he strikes out a good bit, but he walked just under a 1:1 BB/K ratio.
Everyone said that Endy would be an offensive weapon once he was promoted. Hitting minor league pitchers doesn’t guarantee a transformation into the major league
Endy was a pretty good defensive catcher this year, and showed off some good plate discipline. Both his chase rate (times he swung outside the strikezone), and his whiff rate (times he swung and missed) were both better than the league average. He also displayed decent raw power. I think the pieces will fall together for him next season. Same with Henry Davis. Can’t expect every single young player to hit the ground sprinting.
I didn’t say anything about his defense and I don’t expect any of the youngsters to hit the ground running but others on this very site said he’d be an offensive force once promoted
As long as Haines is the hitting coach, there’s no guarantee any of the players will get better next year
I think he’ll eventually develop into that offensive force many wanted him to be. Like I said, he was able to show off some solid plate discipline and he didn’t swing and miss all that often, as he was above average in both chase rate and whiff rate. He also had an above average exit velocity. But he needs to improve his barrel rate. 5.1% is low, and was about where Hayes sat in 2021 as a comparrison. The potential is there however.
Right, and 186 ABs as a rookie is not even remotely a guarantee of the future. I’ll take my chances with an OPS of .892 and .996 in 2021-22, and above average D. Future All Star. 90% of players struggle when first promoted, whether from A to A+ or AAA to MLB
Termarr struck out about 30% of the time in the first half of the year, which was odd considering his plate discipline and plate coverage was conisdered his best tools when he was drafted. But he cut that down by over 10% after the all-star break. He was one of the youngest players in the 2022 draft, and won’t turn 20 until around mid-June.
MLB, I wasn’t wild about the pick but knew they had to take him. I am now very, very excited he is on the team.
Shalin Polanco also took a big step forward this year too. I am excited to see where he moves up to on the pipeline.
I felt sort of the opposite way. I was estatic that they took Johnson. Just loved his pure hitting ability combined with the potential of above average pop. I think he starts the year at Double-A, which would be massive for him. A teenage prospect at the second highest level of the minor leagues is nothing to scoff at.
Looked good for his age, project him as a viable backup as a floor.
He’s only 22 and needs motive in AAA to improve his plate discipline and defensive consistency. Has the skills to be a good player on a winning club in a couple years.
Al- I saw him play in the Phillies clinching game and he was lackadaisical.
He holds the ball much too long at shortstop and for some reason throws sidearm.It is snappy but not powerful.Him and Bae lost that game when they could not turn a doable double play.
He throws overhand in warmups.
He is only 22 and brings some pop but may have been getting tired at the end of the long season for the last two to three weeks.
He is one of many Pirate players who lack fundamentals.The Pirates unloaded one to the Phillies for Bailey Falter.More May follow because of the infatuation that Cherington has had with middle infielders but trading young players can be problematic unless they are Rodolfo Castro.
Like a average to above everyday 2b and backup ss. Hasn’t reached his potential. Who knows if he does but what he is now is alright.
How do our Pirates fans feel about Ol’ Ben?
For better or worse, he has a clearly defined plan that has improved the team to a degree thus far. As such, he’s an immediate improvement over his predecessors, and I’m interested to see what he does moving forward.
Monkey- What you said may be true about Huntington,but keep in mind that after the fifth season of his tenure,they started with the period of the second best MLB record over the next three years.
Are we going to be able to say the same thing about Cherington?
Neil’s downfall was that he got complacent and did not fire his scouting director and development coaches.
Firing Nunnally and Gotay does not cut it
The same thing will befall Cherington if he does not figure out quickly who really needs to go.
In my opinion, He’s okay, not perfect. Probably average, maybe a slightly above average gm. He takes sort of a more passive approach, which can be frustrating if you’re a fan. This offseason however will be extremely important and probably shape the rest of his tenure in Pitt.
Love him. He has stocked the farm with legitimate talent that has already made impact on the major league roster. This comes from signings, trades, and drafts.
Extensions for Hayes and Reynolds both key and hopefully Keller soon as well.
Development from nearly every stretch of the minor league system this year also.
He now needs to cover the gaps. Starting pitching, and 1B. I am hoping for a longer than 1 year answer at 1b but would be open for a Rhys Hoskins play if he’s willing to come here and if he is available.
They are held back by hitting coach and manager, so if Ben can address that also we might be in business.
The Pirates have a J-curve of developing talent vs. a bell curve of ability to sign the younger players to more expensive extended deals. Not sure why WAR loves Ke”Bryan Hayes so much, he’s the second coming of his father in which you combine solid though unspectacular defense with meh offense. They need a big bopper or two in the lineup that can drive in 100+ runs, along with another couple of at least mid-rotation starters that can eat innings. That’s a lot to ask for without a budget. Holding a spot for McCutchen is emblematic of the complexity of their issues; he’s a fourth/fifth outfielder at best when he comes back next year at 37+ with too many miles on his legs.
Unspectacular defense? You’re kidding, right?
Double like… while to expect Hayes to hit for a full year like he did the last several months may be too high an expectation, his defense at third is beyond top notch.
“Solid though unspectacular defense”, brother, the guy was third among all players in defensive runs saved at 21, was fourth overall in outs above average, and if you want to go down the older statistics road, was second to Josh Jung in fielding percentage among third basemen with at least 800 innings. He leads all third basemen since 2020 in DRS by a massive margin of 22 runs, and a wide gap of 16 outs is the difference between him and Arenado in OAA.
You obviously don’t spend much time watching Pirates play baseball.
What more are you expecting out of Hayes then?
If it’s hit anywhere near him, it’s basically an automatic out. Of all the guys to harp on, you’re calling out Hayes?
Mac- The trouble with Hoskins is that he is a designated hitter period.
He is a terrible first baseman.
Steady good hitter otherwise though.I saw him hit a ball into the left field stands his second or third year that was the hardest ball that I ever saw hit.
Would be a good addition as he could be as good of a DH as Martinez has been,
None of these prospects have really emerged in the majors though. All have shown flashes and ended up with middling overall numbers. The pitching prospects in the majors bombed greatly, I don’t think Priester is salvageable with his lack of velocity, Roasny is a total wild card. I think Ben is ok but I don’t think the farm is nearly as good as people act like. Team needs some results, period. When you see teams like the Reds, Diamondbacks, Rays, etc having tons of young players hitting well, the Pirates hardly ever have anyone like that.
Stocking the minors with better than average players as Ben has achieved, without a decent player development system it won’t matter, and their PD has been atrocious for years
Like a marriage, “Until Death do us part”. Rather you like him or not, he isn’t going anywhere unless he pulls a Neal Huntington-ish move (trade away prospects and the system) without improvement for a run at the playoffs or World Series. This offseason he has the chance to do a NH move or perfect his craft beyond drafting and signing low key international prospects. If he does go “all out” by trading prospects and signing FA’s, by July us fans will know if he still has a job. If he cruises through the offseason and makes minor adjustments like last offseason, fan base will be bent. But he will keep his job for another year
Fan- Good synopsis.I wish he has more money to spend as he has done it fairly wisely,but the proof of the pudding will be whether the young hitters make clear cut progress next year.
They will never have the best pitching staff because they do not want to get quality starting pitching at the very high amounts that will need to be paid but they will be doomed to be an average team on the playoff periphery unless they develop better hitters in house.
Even if he fires Shelton he will keep his job but unless they show clear cut improvement next year winning mid to high 80’s it may very well be his next to last one.
Ben was safe sure pick. Could have shot for the moon with a Tampa Houston etc type. Safe and sure was the easy and right move. Development needs to improve more. Trades have been upper tier. Draft average. Free agency top tier.
Year 3 he produced a 80 win team so good work so far.
Not bad, except the decision to extend Shelton was inexcusable.
It was a fun year imo. A lot to look forward to in 2024. They played about .500 ball over their last 70-ish games, which isn’t too bad. McCutchen is probably the first guy that I would want signed, but I hope they’re more aggressive this offseason.
Agree. They made major steps towards respectability. Ask the Cubs and Reds.
MLB- I think that they made a great deal of improvement which was fun but only because they had been so abysmal/ terrible for 3 1/2 years.
It was just as abysmal/ terrible when they went 21-46 immediately after April.
This “rebuild” could go on forever if they do not compete strongly for a division title next year and Cherington should not be waffling about that.
That way everyone is on alert.
The key is will Nutting pony up.
Next year has to be a Wild Card run, at the very least. Anything short of that will be a dissapointment, imo. Will Nutting pony up the money? Only time will tell, but it’s not as if he’s never let his front office spend any money before. Last off-season, they added just over $35 million via trades and free agent signings. I don’t see why they can’t spend a similar amount this off-season. The Pirates had a payroll around $100 million in back-to-back in 2016 and 2017. The reason it didn’t feel like $100 million was because just look back at some of their free agent acquisitions. When Ryan Vogelsong, John Jaso, and Daniel Hudson are some of the biggest additions to the payroll, you’re doing something wrong.
They need to stop this “Instead of one player for $10 million, why not get three players for $3.3 million each” kind of approach. That was fine last winter because this was a sort of ‘testing the waters’ season. I’ll consider this off-season a success if they had a reliable starting pitcher, reliever, and a first baseman.
Why does everybody seem to hate on Aguilar?
Put him at 1B, first day of spring training, and just see what you got.
I know the whole ‘he’s an AAAA player’ but I’d be really interested to see him for a full season.
Nutting and his $ won’t be an issue. The richer and dumber teams will over pay on the top guys. Whatever is left will be more than affordable for Pittsburgh.
Swissvale- I think that you mean Andujar.
I have been asking that same question for three months.
I think that they overplayed Palacios and Rivas to the point of not actually finding out what Andujar can do even though he hit over 300 after his last elevation but in limited at bats.
Hopefully next year they will try to win all the games and play the best players.
Or just do what they have done and be mediocre again.
Thanks Mendoza – yes, Andujar.
Yankees and then Pirates seem to have soured on him – maybe he has a Tabata-like personality and they don’t want him around younger players but I’d like to see him given a good six months at a position we don’t really have an answer at (unless that’s Hank Davis in the future).
You’re welcome young man.
That time is past now unfortunately,
BC has to account for control and I think that that was the downer with playing him.
He may be lackadaisical or a bad influence but the latter cannot really be seen by fans.
This will be his last year of control but I think that he is a pure hitter on a team with few if any.
If they want to win they need to play their best players and send a few of the young guys to AAA.
If Andujar survives the 40 man roster cuts he may become trade bait if he has a good year unless they surprise and actually contend into August.
He can’t lean into free agency since the owner is too cheap…..
bro they can totally sign Carlos Santana and Ryu
gonna be a big winter
They spent just over $35 million in additions through trade and free agency last of-season. I don’t see why they can’t spend about $35-$40 million again this off-season.
because they already spent their 35mil that’s why
Nope Nutting is perfectly cheap. If anything he leans too spendy.
Cherington has to be very careful about who he signs as he will have limited funds as always.
He will need at least two good starting pitchers but the market for them will be ridiculous this year.
He was telling Shelton this year that he had to win.He should be telling himself that in 2024.
The rebuild needs to be complete next year in it’s fifth year.Huntington produced a team that was in first place not in April but in August in his fifth year.There are four or five teams that have been just as bad as the Pirates for at least one year who were close to or made the playoffs this year.Why can’t the Pirates be expected to do that next year?
One key is whether Nutting will pony up more money.
And ,no,Santana should not be part of it.
Santana became a better hitter once he was traded to the Brewers
What does that say about Andy Haines?
He was only marginally better here than in Milwaukee, and you’re also talking about 226 plate appearaces for the Brewers vs nearly 400 with the Pirates (393 to be exact). Btw, Santana was horrible in August for the Brewers with just a .692 OPS, and in the month leading up to the trade that sent him to MIL, he was batting .261/.346/.543. There are plenty of players you could criticize Haines for not developing yet, but I don’t see how Santana is one of them.
Haines had absolutely no affect one way or another on a 37 year old veteran hitter,
At a certain point, when you’re 39, you are what you are.
We get it, Haines suck, blah blah blah.
Other headlines of yours:
Pittsburgh gets upset when the Steelers lose
And
We Got Bridges.
Says nothing at all about Andy Haines.
2024 Pirates wish list in no order.
Fire Shelton, fire Haines, extend Keller, sign Hoskins, sign Bauer.
That team makes the playoffs.
Bauer would be a good fit. Brian Spencer, Eric Wilkerson, James Harrison, Ben Roethlisberger, Felipe Vázquez, and even Art Rooney Sr are all known Pittsburgh heroes.
Don’t forget about Jerome Bettis, he was also accused, and similar to Bauer it was proven false.
Shelton Haines ain’t going nowhere. You don’t fire someone half a year after extending them. Bauer likely isn’t a good fit anywhere. Dodgers seem to know what they are doing and they paid him to go away.
Dodgers may be paying him now anyway.
He dropped his lawsuit but can bring one against MLB and the Dodgers.
And she should be tried in a court of law for fraud and go to jail for a year if convicted.
I’d bet that that the LAD winds up paying just about the entire amount, as well they should. Unless the LAD, with their unlimited resources, can turn up some additional evidence in this case, then Bauer is 100% correct that he was set up.
What would he sue the Dodgers for? They paid him what they owe him.
Mac- They need another good starter also.
They need someone to hound them on fundamentals.
They need to have some luck and BC to work his magic on fill in free agents.
Hoskins as the DH would be great.
If Skenes can come up in late May and do well and take Falter’s place as the fifth starter you may be onto something.
But what about Bauer? I come here for MLB news.
Cherington has to be near perfect to even contend for a wildcard. Ownership still has zero intention to compete for a World Series or use any resources to improve their team. It’s not even a priority for them.
It really is a shame bc Pittsburgh is probably one of the best places in the country to catch a game. Gorgeous stadium and a really fun city. Anytime they are remotely competitive the fans pack that place out so there is no excuse from ownership besides being a greedy little grub.
How did all that spending work out for the Yankees this year? Seems like the pirates improved, and spent a lot less to miss the playoffs.
What do the Yankees have to do with this conversation? And where did I attack the Pirates? Don’t be a troll bc I have “Yanks” in my username. Be better.
If you’re happy with missing the playoffs but doing it in an extremely affordable manner then I don’t know what to say. Maybe you should become a fan of accounting instead of baseball. Tax season could be a real barn burner for you!
Last season, message was spend wisely, and improve. Mission accomplished. I took a crack at the Yankees because of your username, sorry about that. You took the brunt of my frustration with the ownership doesn’t want to spend crowd. For 2/3 of the season the pirates were competitive. That’s moving in the right direction.
Apology accepted. I promise you I’m not the typical Yankee fan…I’m regretting using it as a username at this point lol. Sorry about snapping back at you too I get the “Yankee” insult a lot here when I’m just trying to have a conversation about baseball.
Btw the Pirates are my second favorite team in baseball. I’ve probably been to a dozen Pirate games and I love that stadium.
Love where the Pirates are right now but the crack about the owner didn’t come unfounded. He has never spent and until he shows a willingness to do so I can’t predict anything other than him cheaping out.
But they have some serious young building blocks that can lead to a perineal contender if ownerships invests and keeps investing.
Thanks. I promise to go after the right person next time.
Yank- You are an honorary Pirate fan.
Nutting will spend when he has a good team.
He extends his own players and pays the going rate but does not go after high priced free agents as he does not have money to burn like the large market teams.
The Pirates have had few very good years under his ownership but that has been mainly because the scouting and development teams over the years have been mediocre at best.
Small market teams have to rely heavily on home grown players in order to compete.
Spending $ outbidding the stupid teams on free agents will only decrease playoff odds for a small market team. Nuttings 100 million is enough for Pirates to contend.
Cherington has similar strategy as I do so Pirates should be playoff contenders for the next decade.
I said that 30 years ago irt the Yankees and RS. It would be stupid to try to outbid the Yankees back then. Nothing has changed but the names. Wait for NYY, NYM, LAD & SDP to finish their spending. Then you only have to worry about out-bidding the mid-market teams.
On that note, he emphasized that improving the team will be his “sole focus” over the offseason;
==================================
I’m curious what that means, other than he had nothing to say. Except for the Rockies, isn’t “improvement” the sole focus of every GM?
Most gms say a lot of words but say absolutely nothing.
I’m hoping Pirates sign Jordan Montgomery and Luis Severino to bolster the rotation. Adding these guys, plus return of Brubaker and Burrows, along with anticipated promotions of Jones and possibly Skenes next summer, gives Pirates exceptional depth and top/mid level talent.
Offensively, the big questions are:
1. Is the version of Hayes from August/September we can expect next year?
2. Does Jared Triolo hit with enough power to play 1B?
3. Does O’Neil Cruz return at full speed on day 1?
If the answer to all of these questions are yes, than Pirates will easily score 750 or so runs next season, which is about the average for this year’s playoff teams.
Everyone is going to want Monty. Pirates usually get people no one else wants.
If you ask me, Triolo doesn’t need to hit for poewr to be the Pirates’ first baseman. If he bats .280/.350/.410 with a bunch of doubles and only 12-15 home runs, I’ll be estatic. The guy is a legitimate Gold Glove contender if he plays one position regularly next season. I don’t know if Hayes will be the same batter he was late in the season, but even a little regression will mean he’ll still be a good hitter. A .270-.280 batter with 18 homers is very plausible for him, and with his defense, that could mean a five win player.
If Cruz hits anywhere near his power potential, and stays at short, then average, or little power at first at first is acceptable. Especially if it can come from behind the plate or all 3 outfield positions as well. Maybe I’m old school, but pitching and defense are what I’m hoping they’ll wisely invest in.
If you compare Pirates to the NL playoff teams, there’s no denying they need to be much better in run prevention. Obviously that starts with starting pitching.
Montgomery is certainly going to have numerous suitors, but if BC targets him, he will have the payroll flexibility to acquire him. Unfortunately, I expect them to settle for a couple of back-end bounce back guys on 1-year deals claiming they don’t want to block the high-end pitching prospects like Skenes, Solometo, Jones, and Chandler. When in reality, Nutting just refuses to take a risk on a long-term market rate FA contract.
Scott- The problem is Nutting realizes that the only real hope is to have a fine scouting and development system,especially for pitchers.
Free agent starters will be overpriced,injury prone,or underperforming 75% of the time.
That is why BC has been doing what he has been along with getting players at the trade deadline.
There are few Wheelers in free agency.
What’s the saying again? Oh yeah I remember…Fortune favors the bold. Someone needs to whisper that into Nutting’s ear this winter.
Grump-You May be old school,but what you said separates the good teams and the very good teams.
The Pirates tried to get Keller to agree to an extension but no luck thus far.
If they don’t work something out would a Grissom & Shuster get him to Atlanta ?
Heck no. If the Braves can’t develop them how the heck are the Pirates going to.
They’ve barely started talks with Keller. It took them an off-season and the first week of April for them to get something done with Reynolds.
If it was during last off season, it was probably a lower offer than what they’ll open with now. He only had one good half of a season, up to that point.
Despite the record it was a disaster. Henry, Endy, Nick, etc fell flat. Imagine if those prospects didn’t do so poorly. .500 might have happened. (granted, anyone was better offensively than hedges) They didn’t even need to be good, they just needed to be not bad.
I am not writing them off for 2024 but they need to do something more meaningful to make me believe again. PIcking up a Big Bat 1b. Signing a mid/top end pitcher to a multi year deal. Heck go get Bauer. If you can deal with his personality he is a top of the lineup guy.
PIcking up a vet for 2nd base as a lets see what happens signing and another rotation arm similar to what we do every other year.
Running Triolo, Cruz, Hayes, Reynolds, Suwinski looks to be where they are at now. Triolo will probably regress (per BBRef and eyeballs seeing his BABIP).
Henry and Endy need to step it up. Maybe a different hitting coach or something. not only where they bad… they were very bad. still.. better than Hedges offensively
I may have been overly critical of Quinn maybe but certainly wasn’t good over his pretty short sample 50ip… and 43ER in that time lol. 1 QS out of 10 games…..
I thought they’d win between 72-75 games and really, in many ways they over achieved to get that. I mean, they literally had 2-3 starters and 1-2 reliever games every 5 games.
Agree with a great many of your comments here and I find it funny local media looks at the Pirates as a sidelight to the Steelers and plays up the 14 game improvement over ‘22
I can’t call this season a disaster because it became clear that Cherington was using the second half as an opportunity to see every prospect on the farm who was deemed “almost there”. Yeah, they have a better core here than what they’ve had in the past 4-5 years and one would think that you’d see marked improvement from Endy, Davis and Peguero moving forward. Or hope, anyway
But although starting pitching now means just giving 5 innings every time out, they’re really in need of a couple free agent arms. Bauer would be a nice add, to be sure. There are others, but how much spending will the front office do, anyway?
Have to love how Triolo came on. Give him a shot at 1st. But so many questions. Suwinski has power but looks lost in so many at bats. Has Hayes finally found himself? Can Reynolds regain the hitting success he had before ‘22? Will Cruz be ready? What to do about Andujar and Palacios?
You point out Davis and I think the kid will be alright. Would love to hear their thinking on giving up on him at catcher and their thoughts on his progress in right
Gonna be an interesting off season
Cherington was using the second half as an opportunity to see every prospect on the farm who was deemed “almost there”.
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I’m not that high on Cherry, but this sounds about right. I think they lack that elite tier prospects that BA & AZ have, but they have a number of mid-tier++ prospects. I think .500 is feasible.
Joe- I think that it better be feasible or heads will roll.
Five years is plenty of time to achieve true mediocrity.
And you are right,the Pirates have no blue chippers,the kind that it takes to make even good teams into very good teams.
But they do have enough that could become good ML players.
They really lack the coaching,managing,and development to get any better than that.
Endy looked great. Henry bat can still be a factor. Less optimistic on Gonzalez.
What feee agent 2b is better than Peguero Williams Marcano Triolo?
Best prospects are still in minors. Future looks good.
I don’t know if I’d say Endy looked great. Promising, yes, but great? That might be a stretch. Henry, I have faith in him. He had some big games after getting activated off the IL. Needs to fgiure out how to lift the ball though. I agree, there’s no middle infielder on the free agent market who will likely marginally outproduce their current options, aside from maybe Williams. Williams is a glove only kind of guy.
Glove onlys don’t have a 338 obp. Could be small sample fluke. I have him in mix because free agent starting 2b aren’t capable of playing elite ss defense.
Endy looked exactly how I expected him to. So yes that is great. If he looked much better than I expected him to look that would mean my evaluation failed and that would not be good.
Dream- Akili only at 270 OBP.
He needs to gain 20 pounds to be a ML hitter.
He may not keep his 40 man spot as they are at a premium now.
No more DeJongs or Van Meters to kick around any more.
I like him because he is the only bona fide ML shortstop on the roster.
Hopefully guys like him and Bido do not get claimed when they are DFA’d.
Their best prospects are always in the minors. Then they get here and do little. Look, I like the core of kids who’ve come up but only because they are head and shoulders above what’s come up in the last few years
Having seen the stud pitchers in the minors who are continually talked about, sorry, only Skenes looks like the legitimate big timer they need. Hopefully that’ll change with maturity
Your talent evaluation needs a lot of work. They have half a dozen pitchers with playoff starter stuff who are progressing nicely. Another half dozen with the stuff but haven’t put it together yet.
Both Jones and Solometo looked awesome in my opinion. Jones adjusted very well to the automated strikezone, and Solometo pitched relatively well given he was one of the youngest pitchers at Double-A with improved velocity. Thomas Harrington had a promising campaign, and Bubba Chandler had an ERA under 2.00 with massively improved control in the second half.
Maybe I should clarify that I mean prospects on the verge of getting to the Pirates rotation
I like Jones but he was hit pretty hard over the last month of the season. I think he’ll be fine. Eventually
I wish Solometo threw with a little more heat, that’s all. Last I looked, he was a low 90’s pitcher. Nothing precluding him from being a star, of course, and you’re right. He’s still a kid.
And out of them all, Chandler has perhaps been the most impressive. I like his mechanics and he throws hard. Will be interesting to watch him develop
They will all get their mlb audition at some point. Pirates aren’t playing for a limited window. Jones Solo Skenes maybe even Bubba if need be will be here next year. But even if they didn’t make it up until 2025 2026 it doesn’t matter. Pirates window is now to 2032 2033. Hopefully they nail there extensions, trades, and not as high draft picks to extend it even longer.
Jones wasn’t hit all that hard. He moved to a much more hitter friendly league in the International League. The average slugging percentage in that league was higher than in the peak of the steroids era. Jones was actually a top 10-15 pitcher in said league. Solometo may not throw very hard, but he’s now topping out at 95 MPH and has arguably the best command in the Pirates’ system, and is one of the best command pitchers in the minor leagues. It also helps he’s extremely deceptive and has a lot of extension. I think Chandler has the highest floor of all of them, though Jones and Solometo may be in the big league rotation by June.
Their window is 2032-2033? Seriously? Maybe they should be scouting little leaguers with that in mind. Hilarious
Little Leaguers would be a 2042 2043 window. Only thing hilarious is how hilariously easy the math is. Little league level math? Nah more like T ball. But I will gladly break it down for you. Most current mlb talent is under control for 6 more seasons so they won’t be free agents until 2030. So any prospects in the system won’t be free agents until 2032 2033 2034 2035. Combine that with next years top 10 pick and future drafts, international free agents, trade returns, and Reynolds Hayes extension they should have a competitive window until 2032 2033.
Dream- The proof is in the pudding.
Prospects are suspects until they prove that they can win in the ML’s.
The starters that you talk about are mostly in the lower minors.
The Pirates May have enough good long and short relievers to get by next year but other than Skenes there are no sure bets for next year like the Braves or Dodgers routinely get.
@Mendoza If after trading away every single veteran that you could and drafting 7 1 4 1 10 or better and you can’t develop prospects? Well there is no window in that scenario unless you trade them all away and go for a 3 or 4 year window. If that’s the case get a new gm. Pirates should compete the rest of this decade. If not try another gm.
I think that I understand what you said but you are projecting a ten year contention window.
That would be great if true but Pirate fans want a winner next year.
Otherwise the rebuild can go on and on.
You are correct if you are talking the recent Rays teams but most of the other small market teams peak in a 4-5 year window maximum.
It is cyclical because of the vast difference in resources compared to the large markets.
You haven’t followed the Pirates for nearly as long as many fans here and we have seen this many times before.
Rebuilds do not bring championships so the best that we can hope for is a contending team for five years with the core of three years like we had in 2013-2015.
That is what we need to start seeing next year.
We cannot wait for three or four more years.
@Mendoza Line 215 Any team that only had a 4 or 5 year window didn’t do things right. Anything prior to around the AJ Burnett trade isn’t relevant. From 1993 to 2010 the Pirates were ran awful. Had no chance of being good or rebuilding. Huntington was first gm who was even remotely decent. Could trade and sign free agents. Early Huntington trades weren’t good. Even with Huntington unable to develop talent the Pirates had a 7 year window. They failed to make playoffs but they could have and were trying to. Lack of farm system development prevented that. And Cherington could fail as well. But theoretically they can have a near decade window. Done everything right so far. All comes down to prospect development.
He “wasn’t hit all that hard” and yet, hitters got on base quite frequently against him. I just don’t think that translates into a jump into the Pirates rotation in ‘24
Solometo has touched the 94-95 range but from everything I’ve seen and read, he is what he is. Perhaps he adds a bit of weight and strength or changes his arm slot a bit in the next couple years. Hope he continues to progress
Agree about Chandler but again, we are likely not talking about ‘24.
You see, my thought it that while this team doesn’t have to get out of the gate at 20-8 again, they can’t afford a rough start. It sure would be nice to have a couple of solid rentals in place while they kids on the farm mature while also allowing the core here to be competitive
You didn’t break it down. You just explained yourself a little better
Yes, the Rays model is the optimum for any smaller market franchise (did you notice they only had 19K fans for the wild card opener yesterday at the Trop)
It’s a nice goal, a nice dream
The problem with the Pirates continues to be their player development and scouting departments. They’ve been horrible and unless that improves, your prior comments about farm pitchers having playoff-caliber stuff and now, this gem about contention, seem like folly
Perhaps Hayes is a guy the Cherington regime can point to and say, “We developed him”
Whom else?
You’ll forgive me. Until that question can be answered with more than one or two guys, your comments in this thread really are hilarious
I agree.But the lack of real difference makers at this point makes the ten year window more of an average of 87 wins rather than the 94 wins for that three year window when they were actually Championship contenders.
Cherington has provided a basis to generally be a good team for a number of years.In that he follows the blueprints of the Rays and other teams.And maybe that is all Pirate fans can be hopeful of- compete for one of the watered down wild cards every year and hope for the best.
The WS winning teams are generally either the best teams or the hottest teams.And those two or three superstars that they almost always have can get you there..
The expanded playoff teams can be a curse as much as a benefit.
It happened to the Pirates before.
Development shouldn’t be good. It was awful under Huntington. You think there are all these unemployed good baseball coaches just sitting around waiting for the Pirates to call them? It should take years or a decade. How many years without a winning record? What pitcher did Huntington develop that wasn’t the #1 or #2 overall draft pick? Cherington took over maybe and probably the worst development team in baseball? Did you see what Houston and Tampa did with our players? So you think a gm should fix that in 3 years? Cherington is hiring people who other teams fired or giving them a promotion and pay raise their previous team didn’t think was worth doing to keep them. Or hiring entry level that more wealthy and popular teams weren’t interested in.
We wouldn’t know much anyways because other than Davis Gonzales, all the top drafted talent has been highschool kids.
I think they are ahead of pace and doing well. But it’s a long climb from the bottom.
The Pirates can overpay good organizational coaches because they like players go where the money is.
The Pirates won 83 games in 2018 and were very competitive the first half of 2019.
The Reds almost made the playoffs this year and the Marlins and DBacks did.The Nationals were horrible after 2019 and did not have too much of a worse record than the Pirates this year.The Orioles were awful for several years but when they turned it around they became a very fine team.
None of these teams bought their improvements with money.
What am I missing?
@Mendoza Pirates aren’t much worse than the Reds. Reds don’t worry about service time and super two. They didn’t sell at the deadline. Better at player development.
Baltimore has been rebuilding longer. 2018 vs 2021. They picked number #1 in a year that had a generational catching talent. We picked number 1 in a year with a lesser hitting talent who can’t even catch good enough to catch in garbage time. They develop better.
Miami has been rebuilding even longer. What year did that pitcher die and they traded their entire outfield? Not as long as it seems but been a while. They excelled at developing pitching. But there farm system is weak, Soler will opt out. Bell might as well. They may not make playoffs again or not for much of a window. Rather be in Pirates situation.
If Pittsburgh had Trea Turner, Max Scherzer and Juan Soto to trade and Washington didn’t then I would predict their records wouldn’t be similar.
You are correct and accurate in your assessments but they have overachieved already and the Pirates still have to do so.
Next year will be a very key year for both Cherington and Shelton.
@YourDreamGM
Endy looked good behind the plate with a glove. He was horrible at the plate with a bat. 67 OPS+ is down right horrible. His defense did push him into a positive fWAR. I just saw what you said below about your eval of him. so your view makes a bit more sense to me but I expected his offense to be better and his defense to be worse .
Davis was almost as bad at the plate with a 72 OPS+ even worse his defense was not very good. To be fair on the defense, pretty sure its the first meaningful time he has spent in RF. His gun of an arm and experience should really improve that.
I’d bet 100$ of Hulk Hogans money and say Triolo has a rather substantial regression at the plate, however his MiLB past suggests he maybe able to continue the crazy.400+ BABiP. He is a wild card. However his defense plays well. IMO he makes the roster and that starting at second is his job to lose and putting him at first is a waste of talent. BUT if someone like Nick or Liover steal the show and Triolo is still hitting hey… do it 🙂
Peguero,Marcano and Williams are in a similar boat to Endy and Davis. They just didn’t perform. Gonzalas even worse but he didn’t really play much.
Most of these guys have had some recent success in the MiLB and we would expect more of them to have performed not bad. Maybe not good, but just not bad.
On who I would sign.. and mind you this is just a signing to have someone around with real experience to step in if the trend continues. Adam Frazier. His bat rebounded last year to be a bit around average and can play practically anywhere if needed. Yeah he isn’t a GG contender any more and hes probably not going to bat .300 again but he could be a solid 1 year pick up. Plus he’s cute and could get my wife watching the games again haha. Josh Harrison because he is fun and he did decent in 2021 and 22. Putting him and Cutch together one more year could be good fun even if the team is losing.
To be Fair to all these young guys. Most of the ones we need to step it up only have half a season of on the field time, if that. Most of them did flash some sign that they deserve to be a starter. The fact that all of them but Triolo flopped says something about the team and has made me pessimistic rather than my normal optimistic outlook for the pirates.
Hopefully Ben has a good off season. Resigns Cutch, a 1b Bat, an actual quality starter. Bauer, Montgomery, etc…
@Joe if you are going to look at stats then look at stats. Do catchers catch every game? What’s the average ops for a catcher? What is Endys vs rhp? I will save you some time, he’s one of the better catchers in all of baseball. How many mlb quality lefties you face in minors? Not many. Maybe he can improve vs them and vs rhp as well. His exit numbers are around average. Hitting ball in air is excellent.
Frazier is declining and will cost millions if not tens of. Williams elite defense and 338 obp. Peguero almost 800 ops. Combine they make one of the best 2b SS in baseball and for minimum wage. Williams couldn’t hit lhp any worse. As a righty he should improve significantly. As rookies they could all improve.
I heard a rumour that fans don’t think the hitting coach is any good. In fact they say he is awful. So just imagine what these guys could do with a actual hitting coach!!!!!!!!!
@YourDreamGM
Okay lets look at those stats closer. Against RHP he still wasn’t all that good Not bad but not good. Against Lefties was down right horrible. He is also a switch hitter, the splits “should” not be that drastic. Keeping in mind his splits in AAA where Good on both fronts. is
Fraizer rebounded some last year. Like I said, as a stand in if the prospects go to the bottom of the barrel and some experience other players might find valuable. If its over 5m they shouldn’t sign him of course definitely agree.
Williams didn’t show his elite defense in short sample thats for sure but did make a couple nifty plays if I recall correctly. and his offense is in the gutter. However, I will give him a pass on that because his sample is very very small and one mis-step on defense or one hit can swing those stats by a significant margin.
Peguero Not sure where you are getting 800OPS?
These players should be better. I’m not sure where the problem is. there is definitely an issue when these players hit the MLB for sure. which part of the staff I don’t know. BUT given that most of the Starting pitchers had problems too I don’t think it is just the hitting coach.
Joe 780 something ops vs lhp. No one on here likes platoons but it’s what the elite teams do. They take what you do well and let you do it.
Why should these players be better? Most have been fantastic. What would you trade for 1 expensive year of washed up Cutch? I certainly ain’t giving Bryan Reynolds for that. How about a .276 10 hr max 2b? I’m not giving up Suwinski for 2 years of that. Garcia was a failed prospect. Joe for him was a good get. Cruz for 2 months of Watson! Cruz should have never made it to mlb. Dodgers didn’t see him making it. Dbacks already gave up a recently drafted late 1st round talent pitcher for a 30 year old ped user corner outfielder only. You think they are going to include a all star ss as well? Peguero shouldn’t be anything special. Joe Musgrove is a really good starter. But you already got Head who they thought so much of they have him 3 million signing bonus ( don’t know what either team seen in him and why Pirates didn’t change his swing), a all star closer, and you want a all star catcher as well? Contreras shouldn’t be anywhere close to a front line starter. You giving up a prospect that you think could be that for a guy coming off his 2nd tj that hasn’t pitched sin e 2019? Pirates scouting development has been better than many teams.
Dream- Don’t say “no one”
If Joe could play centerfield he would be a good complement to Suwinski.They need someone like Pache from the Phillies to play centerfield
Plenty of good to very good teams have platoons in at least two positions.
Shelton was platooning Joe with Rivas for the last month.
The trick is to have the left right combination for a position that both can play well.
The Pirates will not be good enough to not have to have platoons on a well run team.
@Mendoza Well I don’t remember my Joe Suwinski all star platoon being a big hit around here.
Ps it’s been downgraded to almost all star. But many all stars have a great few months and fall off 2nd half.
Young man,brilliance often goes unrequited.
The woman from Penn who is getting the Nobel prize in chemistry for helping to discover the Covid vaccine could not even get grant money even ten years ago.
And some posters in response may be like me in answering questions.
I charge $1.00 for very good answers and $0.50 for decent ones.
But my dumb looks are still free.
Joe- Remember these players are almost all young players.
It takes time to become a ML hitter They face the best in the world,guys who literally pitch until their arms fall off.
Priester needs more time in AAA but did show improvement once he came back.Davis and Bae need to go to AAA for several months to learn how to play both of each player’s positions and to learn how to hit.
I like their young relief pitchers,although Selby did not cut it and Hernandez needs to spend the whole year in AAA.
Endy is easily one of the best young catchers in the league and should not be expected to be Johnny Bench too.
@Mendoza
I said it in other stories. The Impact Prospects Nick, Henry, Endy and Quinn all did really did bad over all. With the upside being Endy’s defense.
All other prospects did poorly too, minus Triolo did poorly.
Something is seriously wrong with the team. Scouting Development Coaching..not sure where but I doubt it is scouting.
Joe- I said it a million times before.
It is development,some coaching,and managing.
Scouting and the GM have provided good young players,albeit heavy on middle infielders and short on near ready ML pitchers.
But mediocre development is a fatal flaw for small market teams.
I say 83 wins next year but that may be the apex unless certain things change.
Too early to make the call
What if the front office pulls the trigger on bringing in a couple of midrange starters. Your Sonny Gray, for instance. There are others, of course. What if they look around and realize there is no need to spend on free agent position players anymore and use that money on pitching?
I don’t see any minor league prospect coming north as part of the starting rotation. I don’t see any of the guys who had major surgeries being ready either
That makes a couple good signings imperative
Joe is down on Endy, Davis and Peguero where I see a lot of fire and upside. This was collectively their first year. I would hope that a good glove man like Triolo is given a lot of work at 1st this spring.
You say somewhere above that perhaps 87 wins is good enough to act as a competing team in this market. I’d agree. In fact, I’d go for .500 and at least being a team that leaves it out there game in and game out
But where being competitive is concerned, there wasn’t much difference between the Pirates, Cubs and Reds, or for that matter, the Marlins down the stretch. And they did it with a 2-3 man starting rotation and a team of interchangeable guys from AAA
Let me also add that I am often critical of Shelton for several different reasons but for him to have a winning record over 70 games with most of the time two starting pitchers is absolutely amazing.
Less often about Cherington but he has been a master at the under the radar pickups,free agent signings,and non major trades which any GM of a small market team has to do to be successful.Good for him.
Agree 100%. Shelton’s line ups and mystery moves leave me speechless sometimes. He reminds me of Tanner at times although Chuck had much more to work with
The 2-3 man starting rotation was something to behold. I’m a dinosaur. I love the era when pitchers could go 9. But maybe Shelton was onto something note that he had any choice
I want to believe Priester and the guys at AAA can contribute. I just think they’re a year away
That said, if nothing else Cherington got a good look at the kids this year.
One note about Peguero. He came up and provided fire but faded as his hitting slumped. Initially, he and Palacios provided a real spark. Now I wonder if he is going to be lost in the mix, holding a place for when Termarr gets here
I have come to the conclusion that Shelton does not have the final say on the lineups.
Can you imagine telling Earl Weaver that?
BC and Shelton worked well with the “bullpen games” where even a pitcher like Bido may be serviceable as the first relief pitcher.
I do think that they have scouted well.The starters are behind the position players because they do not have as many and they tend to have major injuries.They are young players but the pitching coaches seem to be a good deal ahead of the hitting coaches.Cruz and Hayes should never have had to go outside the ML batting coach to improve.
You are right about Peguero,While I think that Shelton is very good and patient with the young players I wonder if they have a “mental” coach in amongst their 237 list of coaches to help with that side of things.I think that the young players could get lost without one.
I wouldn’t count my chickens before they are hatched.Johnson is comparable to a very young O’Neil Cruz.Cruz was basically a crap shoot then and is not a proven commodity even now.
I think that Peguero does have talent and if he is coached properly and gets better fundamentally his competition with Johnson would be a very good thing to have.
@joew why are these considered impact prospects? Some are but weaker ones and some aren’t. 2021 wasn’t a strong draft class and they took Davis who was ranked as 5th best at best so they could take Solo Bubba later. 2020 was a even weaker much weaker class and they had 7th pick. Gonzales hasn’t looked even good since A ball. Most scouts thought his swing would result in too many K’s. Priester was a Huntington pick. Haven’t you heard he stunk at drafting. Do you know who Endy was traded for? He was a lotto ticket they didn’t think would hit. I always liked him and thought it was a brilliant move but he wasn’t impact or close to it when they traded for him.
Impact prospects are TJ Skenes above all others. Davis fits as well but not on their level. Solo Bubba. Gonzales because he was 1st round pick but he wouldn’t have gone in top 15 im 2023 draft.
@Mendoza
.500+ based on what I saw is not happening with the current roster. They need to make a couple real changes. If that is in the coaching and development I would be less cranky.
A quality 1b and Pitching signing would also go along way.
We will see if Nutting wants to win by how much he is willing to spend.
We will see if Cherington wants to win by not relying solely on analytics to set lineups.
We will see how much Shelton wants to win by learning how to use his bullpen to optimum efficiency.
The key is the rigorousness of teaching fielding,batting,and pitching fundamentals.They are never going to compete with the best teams until that happens.
.
Dream- Does this post show that for once you are speechless?
It means period. I told it like it was and thats the end of it. Period….
Or that I replied to someone above but this garbage system put it down here and it doesn’t give you the option to delete it so I edited it to a .
Sorry,I did not see the period.
I meant it in jest.
And it has been acting up today.
Dark-I presume that you were addressing me.
I wish Sonny Gray was mine.I would rent him out to the Pirates for three years.
Cherington is like a body builder who has not been working on his legs.Unfortunately,starting pitching has been in the background as he has collected middle infielders.
They need at least two good starting pitchers as you are correct in your prognosis.
And you may be one of the fans who say that 87 wins for an extended period is fine.
Too early to make that call as you say.
Endy is fine and will be a decent ML hitter and good for a catcher.Davis will be a good ML hitter once someone teaches him to hit the slider and the Pirates quit jerking him around as to his position.I saw no fire in Peguero and although he has talent and is young needs to learn how to play second base.I think Triolo will become what Sean Rodriguez was to Clint Hurdle as long as he shows that he can hit like he did for the last two weeks.
Cherington will have a tough job figuring out who to cut off the 40 man roster as he does need to bring some players in from the outside.
If you are a long time fan the Pirates owe it to you to produce clearly a winning team next year and not put this rebuild off any longer.
.
Ben went hard after starting pitching. Just took one #1 overall. Most of his over slot comp 2 3 4 picks were pitchers. 2022 you had to take TJ. 2021 2022 there wasn’t a pitcher that made sense in round 1. Most his trades have had pitching in them. Teams hate to trade pitching and it’s not like Pittsburgh had great talent to trade. Malone was a good get. Contreras flashed talent. Have to have elite trade bait to get a real pitching prospect back.
Not sure what happened to Brennan Malone.
Not good minor league results before this year.
He may have major arm problems or is no longer in baseball as he has no record in 2023.
Looney Tunes-Bibip bibip,that’s all folks!
Forrest Gump-And That is all I have to say on that.
Most teams use their coaching staff to help those young players he mentioned to improve at this level. Cherington has basically thrown kids who don’t know how to swim in the deep end of the pool and yelled sink or swim because Shelton and his staff haven’t improved in a long time!
Ump- I would think that the better teams would have someone specifically assigned to listen to the young players and bolster their confidence.This especially applies to the foreign players who quite possibly do not even understand the English language.
They could get rid of the development coaches who do not develop anything.
I understand why they wanted to get a look at everyone over the last four years but this selection process has got to end now.
Guys like Bae and Davis clearly need a couple of months at AAA to learn how to hit.
Guys like Bae and Davis clearly need several months to learn to play both of their disparate positions.Talking about throwing them in the deep end!
Then BC and Shelton need to tell them what the plan is.
BC did not say that they have to win next year but he needs to turn the corner and understand that that needs to be the immediate plan The time to brag about their farm system and all the prospects is over.
No one expects them to get into the World Series but a winning record with clear cut improvement should be necessary for them to keep their jobs.
Yeah, that comment made me laugh. The numbers don’t lie and neither does the “eye test”. I’ve seen many a good-fielding 3B in my years as a baseball fan, Hayes does stuff on defense I’ve never seen a 3B do.
No one crushed Bill Madlock for basically averaging 11 HRs per season with adequate defense, yet Hayes gets knocked for not providing enough power or average for his position. If he’s a .270 hitter with 15 HRs on average during the term of his contract while legitimately being the best defensive 3B in the game – the Pirates got an absolute steal on his contract.
This already was an 83-win team if Cruz and Velazquez (provided he didn’t regress to his mean) had played most of the season. Even without VV, it’s not a far stretch to think that having Cruz taking ABs instead of Marcano, Alika Williams, Rudolfo Castro and Vinnie Capra would have flipped at least 7 games from losses to wins.
Development can only go so far, I watched many of these young guys really press to show they belonged, which had a detrimental effect on actual execution. Game awareness only can come with experience, Suwinski’s double in the last game of the season being an example of a guy who is starting to understand that not every game needs to be won with a moonshot into the Allegheny.
I am a firm believer in needing to have adversity in order to improve. All of these prospects needed to fail to some degree to see that their ability, which had carried them to the highest level, was not enough to keep you in the bigs, you need to continually work. It’s easy to lose this in the course of thinking about prospects, but you have to remember that every last guy listed in this discussion was head-and-shoulders better than anyone they’d played against until at least AA, truly elite athletes can make it that far on ability alone.
The same would go for the coaching staff, you have to find different means and ways of reaching different personalities to help them improve – or even want the help – I don’t think everyone on Shelton’s staff is particularly adept at that. Understanding the abilities and personality of specific players and coaching them to minimize the flaws (not eliminate them – that is almost impossible) is something guys like Haines and Marin could work on for sure.