8:19PM: Minasian told ESPN’s Alden Gonzalez and other reporters that Ohtani underwent an MRI on Friday that showed continued oblique irritation, so the decision was made to shut him down for the remainder of 2023. “I don’t have details on [Ohtani’s upcoming elbow] procedure, but obviously he wants to get that as quick as he can and start getting ready for ’24,” Minasian said. In regards to Ohtani’s early locker clearout, Minasian explained that “I think in his mind he thought there was a possibility for a procedure today, and that’s why he packed.” Largely sidestepping a question about the Angels’ chances of re-signing Ohtani, Minasian said media would have to ask the player himself, adding that “it’s been a pleasure to get to know him these last three years and hopefully he’s here for a long time.”
2:03PM: The Angels have placed Shohei Ohtani on the injured list with an oblique strain, the team announced to reporters, including Bill Shaikin of the Los Angeles Times. This marks the end of both his 2023 season, and quite possibly his tenure with the Angels.
Ohtani was in the midst of the best season of his already remarkable career when a UCL tear stopped him in his tracks in mid-August. While he might have opted to address the injury immediately (increasing his chances of making a quick return in 2024) he chose instead to play out the rest of the year as a designated hitter. Unfortunately, he suffered a second injury just ten days later, hurting his oblique during batting practice. At the time, the team believed the injury to be minor, but Ohtani would go on to sit out the next several games. On Friday, after he missed his 11th game in a row, reporters noticed his locker at Angel Stadium had been cleared out, inviting speculation that Ohtani was being shut down.
General manager Perry Minasian is expected to provide further information later today. So could Ohtani himself, who is expected to be at the ballpark when the Angels take on the Tigers for the second game of the weekend series.
While this clearly isn’t the outcome Ohtani or the Angels were hoping for, an early end to his season could give the two-way star a chance to address his torn UCL as soon as possible. Earlier this month, his agent Nez Balelo revealed that some sort of procedure to repair his elbow was “inevitable.” It is not clear what type of procedure (such as Tommy John surgery or an internal bracing procedure) Ohtani might face, but any kind of elbow repair comes with recovery time. Ohtani has no timetable for his return to the mound, but the sooner he seeks treatment, the sooner he can begin the rehabilitation process.
Ohtani is set to become a free agent following the season, and his impending free agency has been the talk of the sport throughout the year. Before his injury issues popped up, many thought he could command upwards of $500MM on the open market, and even now, Ohtani still seems likely to sign the largest free agent deal in MLB history. His durability is a legitimate cause for concern, but when he’s on the field, Ohtani’s two-way ability naturally creates a bigger impact than any of his peers. Over the past three years, he has hit 124 home runs with a .964 OPS and a 2.84 ERA. That level of performance will net him an enormous payday, even if Ohtani doesn’t step onto a mound during the first year of his next contract.
Whether that enormous payday comes from the Angels or another club, however, remains to be seen. Right now, it’s hard to imagine Ohtani is all that optimistic about the direction in which his team is headed; Los Angeles is two losses away from its eighth straight losing season, despite an MVP-caliber effort from their best player. Ohtani will have no shortage of suitors, and he has previously suggested that he wants to play for a winning team. Thus, it’s quite possible he has already played his last game in an Angels uniform – a 10-6 loss to the Athletics in which he went 0-for-3 with two walks, so hardly a storybook ending.
On the bright side, Ohtani still has a chance to go out on a high note when awards season rolls around. He seems like a lock to win his second AL MVP, even though his injury gives other contenders (i.e. Corey Seager, Marcus Semien, and Julio Rodriguez) a slight chance to catch up. Currently, Ohtani leads the AL with 44 home runs, a .412 on-base percentage, and 325 total bases, to go along with his 3.14 ERA in 23 starts. He also leads the second-place Seager by 2.6 FanGraphs WAR and 3.1 Baseball Reference WAR, which is a cavernous gap to close with just 15 games remaining on the schedule.
Correction: This marks the end of his tenure with the Angels.
No one has ANY idea as to what he’s gonna do. The media is addicted to make mountains out of Sho molehills. I’m not saying he’s back with the Angels, but they’re not out of the running either.
American MSM is just half truths, outright lies, distortions and salacious rumors. They know Ohtani’s intentions about as much as we do.
Whatever™
He’s got a basketball Jones²
American MSM is just half truths, outright lies, distortions and salacious rumors.
=====================
That’s all of America. We think we know twice as much as we really do.
And the media is even worse. No one just wants to report the news anymore. When you get to the trade deadline, one would get the impression that GMs do nothing but talk to reporters all day.
Oh baby, oo-oo-ooo.
This sounds exactly like an excuse for believing in just about anything, or absolutely nothing. That’s pretty much all of America now.
They should be out of the running. Ohtani cannot save them. The Angels need basically an entirely new team. Ohtani and Trout were their only position players who did more than the bare minimum of carrying their own weight. The Angels have ONE position player on the entire team under age 30 who was able to carry their weight this year.
The Angels’ rotation is also untrustworthy at best, well below average more likely.
On top of it, the Angels’ farm system is pretty poor.
Agreed
NYY or LAD maybe SEA
def not LAA cursed garbage
They most certainly are out of the running. They would need a Christmas miracle to resign him.
Based on everything he has said about wanting to play on a winning team, about playing. In post season games and the WS, yes the Angels are not in contention for him!
There’s no chance he’s going back to Angels. They are the most dysfunctional team in mlb by a mile. For real ! Why is the most coveted free agent in a generation still playing games w pending free agency while his team is eliminated from post season. Especially after that charade they tried to pull to stay in contention. Just WOW !
My guess is Miami or NY- so he can get as far from LA as possible
Miami? Since when do the Marlins operate with the type of budget it would take to sign him?
Miami? Since when do the Marlins operate with the type of budget that it would take to sign him?
Big whiffa: You could probably count out Miami and NY right now. Anyone can change their mind, but Ohtani himself has said he wants to play on the west coast, and he wants to play for a contender. Oakland? No. Las Vegas isn’t on the west coast and isn’t a contender. SF? A potential contender with money to spend as they showed this past off-season. Seattle? That’s where I hope he will play, but he won’t unless the highly respected Ichiro can convince him. Then there’s the issue of money. The Padres have the money, surprisingly, and they might be a contender considering the players they have. But I don’t know if they want to spend $500m+, which he will still get from somebody despite his injuries.
Avenger
“Seattle? That’s where I hope he will play, but he won’t unless the highly respected Ichiro can convince him. ”
1) how do you know this?
2) what does it even mean? Like I assume those two dudes at least text sometimes. So, if Ohtani says, “How’s Seattle” and I chiro says “fine” and then Seattle throws piles of money at at him, does that mean Ichiro convinced him?
I’m not so arrogant to think I can read Ohtani’s mind, but it would make Sense that he’d go to a team that looks set up to be winners into the foreseeable future. And if we’re limiting that to the West coast that looks like the Dodgers are the best bet.
@Filihok Ohtani has been in MLB and AL West for the past 6 seasons. I don’t see Ichiro having any influence on his decision. He is a grown man and a MLB veteran who has is familiar with MLB cities especially those in AL West.
Also everyone has piled onto the notion that his primary motivation is contending due to a status quo comment made during WBC in regards to the WBC. What is never mentioned is that he has made more than any other MLB player the last few seasons through endorsements. Which is quite indicative of a player motivated by maximizing his earnings during his career. And now in the wake of his injury where some teams might scale back their offers, I’d say $ is definitely going to have a huge influence on his decision. Now other factors such as location and direction of team will likely be kept in mind. Unless all teams are breaking the bank, $ might render those other factors inconsequential.
I do see Dodgers resigning Urias now being highly unlikely. Coupled with current injury woes to their pitching I’d say they re again top suitors. Signing Ohtani with an eye on 2025 and beyond for him and other arms would seem a promising move strategically.
You have no idea about the Japanese culture and their respect for elders. Of course Ichiro will have some influence he was Notani’s idol. However, my take is Ichiro will suggest what is good for him not necessarily Seattle, he is a father figure.
I don’t see Ichiro having any influence on his decision.
=====================
Probably pretty close to -0- influence. Yaz is my favorite player of all time, but I wouldn’t be asking him where I should play.
Lol, tourist fan
Anyone who thinks Ohtani will go anywhere but the West Coast (assuming he stays in MLB) is just fooling themselves.
Actually, Toronto is further from Los Angeles than New York.
Pretty sure we can add Boston as further than New York from LA too if we’re keeping track
And NY??? If there’s an argument to made for a more dysfunctional team both of the NY teams have to be in the top 3!
Miami or NY? That is really funny. Do you do stand up too? Its stupid, but hilarious.
I guess your name says it all. You whiff on all your posts.
Well, hold on with that most dysfunctional title real quick! Have you taken a look at that the team about 100 miles south of Anaheim?
The Padres put the “fun” in dysfunctional!
The Padres are still well behind the NYMs.
There have been so many posters who claim that Ohtani will definitely leave the Angels. Everyone should keep in mind the lengthy history that Arte Moreno has established. Moreno has a long history of outbidding the other owners for free agents. And when Moreno has outbid other owners, it has been with crazy long contracts for enormous amounts of money that surprise everyone. In one way, I can envision Ohtani signing a handsome contract with the Dodgers or Yankees, but I can also envision Moreno making Ohtani a bid for millions more that what the Dodgers or Yankees are willing to offer.
@GO1962 I absolutely agree. Most dismiss the Angels based off a status quo comment he made during WBC. They also dismiss the fact that he has chosen Angels once already, is familiar with the organization(for good or bad we don’t really know, and as you stated $ and Moreno’s willingness to spend.
In the wake of his injury $ is likely now the absolute driving factor, which it very well could ve been all along anyways. This is also the player who has led all of MLB in endorsement $ the last few seasons. So any notion that he won’t be looking to maximize earning seems a baseless assumption.
You’re talking about money and the chance he’ll re-sign with the Angels, but you’re overlooking his desire to play for a contender. His first choice when he came here were the Dodgers. He might have changed his mind after six years, but I still think the Dodgers will be his choice.
Avenger
“His first choice when he came here were the Dodgers”
Why didn’t he sign with the Dodgers then?
No DH then in the NL and he wanted to bat and LA said no.
When he is named MVP, SELL all of your Ohtani rookie cards.
Player of the Year, absolutely! MVP, shouldn’t be. To be valuable, your team has to do something. The Angels could have finished ahead of the A’s this year without Ohtani or Trout playing a single inning. If he helped you win your fantasy league, sorry, but that shouldn’t count as what made him valuable. MVP should go to someone, without whom, their team would not have made the playoffs. WAR is like Bitcoin. It has theoretical value,
Imagine the Angels without Ohtani. With all the injuries they suffered, they would have been a 100+ loss team. They also would not have added MLB players at the deadline so they would have been playing guys like Fletcher and other AAA players most of the season. Ohtani was insanely valuable.
Stymee
The ballot instructions literally say that that is not correct
You are inventing rules that don’t exist
Its not the MVTP (Most Valuable Team Player) award its the MVP (Most Valuable Player). You can factor in how valuable to the team when its close but can you name someone close to Ohtani?
Cool that you think that way. You don’t need WAR to know Ohtani is the mvp. To say otherwise shows your lack of seriousness( also the fact you named no other option). Come on now…
In regards to MVP voting.
I know this is not how it really works, but, in theory the name on the front of the jersey should not matter. The MVP is the most valuable player within the America/ National Leagues. Obviously like all the other leagues many other factors come into play. Like it or not, that is the ugly truth.
Angels dodged a bullet. Arte wouldn’t hesitate to give a 30 year old player a 10 year contract!!
jd
Arte almost certainly has more experience with finance than you do.
The length of the deal literally does not matter.
What matters is the annual average value, the present value, and the payouts (for cash flow reasons).
Arte may be an amazingly successful businessman, but he has nothing done nothing to demonstrate that he’s a savvy baseball executive. My guess is that 50% of the posters on the this website could do better than him if they had that payroll.
The Angels, and more importantly, Arte, needs to understand you can’t give contracts that cover a players 30s. Get young, and stay young. The 30 somethings just need to fill out the role player positions. Or have solid, predictable, performances.
jd
of course you can. And, you should.
It appears that you don’t understand basic economic concepts like the time value of money.
Teams would prefer to pay longer contracts.
Teams definitely know that players get older and perform worse. Like, they definitely know that. Everyone knows that. They also know that paying out $300,000,000 over ten years is easier on the pocketbook than paying it out over 7 years or 5 years.
For example,
A 10 year $30,000,000 per year contract has the same present value as a 7 year $39,000,000 per year contract. Or a 5 year $51,400,000 a year contract
Teams would rather pay the first. Smaller tax hit and easier to build a competitive team.
It’s the same basic economics as making a house or car payment instead of paying cash for them.
filihok: One thing people forget is that Ohtani is a natural athlete. He’ll probably heal faster from his UCL and oblique injuries than most players would. That’s why teams bidding for him won’t let his injuries stop him from paying him a record salary. Even if he has tjs, he’s worth waiting for. I don’t remember if Ichiro had any major injuries, but he played until he was 45 and could have gone longer.
Avenger
Why do people just say things as fact that they can’t possibly know?
You have no idea if he heals faster from injuries than anyone else.
Every professional athlete is a “natural athlete”. Some heal faster, some heal slower. Some get hurt more, some less.
Your, avenger, have no more idea than any of us which are which
@ Avenger, I could see ones athleticism playing a part in healing from an oblique strain. With tendons and ligaments tho, they heal as they heal you can’t train to strengthen them. That would just risk being reinjured. As for the oblique strain, that will b long past by the time he recovers from the UCL injury.
And in case you are not familiar with tendon or ligament repair and rehab, it is first repaired and restored. Then it is 100% immobilized for a fixed period of time. After which the tendon or ligament has tightened and shortened. So rehab starts with slowly stretching it back so that it lengthens without rupturing. This is not a process where athleticism gets one over the hump. And I can tell you from experience it sucks especially waiting and is a tedious process.
He’s already in Japan
He was at Angel’s stadium a half hour ago.
Now that makes him the ultimate two-way player.
And of trout were smart he’d ask for a trade this winter
I think he’s going to.
As an Angels fan, I hope he goes elsewhere. He deserves a shot to make a difference in October. The sport needs that as well.
I’m hoping the Arte era is indeed over. Send Trout somewhere he can play meaningful baseball and build around OHoppe, Neto, Detmers, etc. Send Rendon to Siberia.
It’s time.
And the Washington Wizards have announced they’ve singed Ohtani to a 5 year 500 million dollar deal making him the richest non basketball player to ever walk onto a team
MVP still?
Absolutely
Definitely. The former Angel will be MVP!
MVP should never come from a really bad team? What was he MVP of? Losing? Best Player Award,, Yeah, MLB needs to start dividing these awards up. Ohtani as MVP is ridiculous. Andre Dawson winning MVP was even worse if Ohtani wins this year
,
He is the most valuable player to the league itself. The guy is other worldly when it comes to this sport.
And one more thing: If the league gives the MVP award to the player most valuable to his team, there would be 30 awards given out. Someone like Trout would have ten MVP awards by now while Betts would have a bunch and Altuve an impressive collection. It wouldn’t mean as much. Kind of like youth sports where everyone gets a medal just for participating, a horrible practice. To win against the best players in the league is something special. Of course some of it is subjective – after all, it IS people voting for these awards- but sometimes the winner is obvious, like this year.
@Captain-Judge99 When was the actor who played Frodo Baggins or Mark in “The Good Son” ever a prospect in the Padres or Nationals systems?
Corey Seager.
No. Stop with the Seager stuff. It is still Ohtani and it isn’t even close.
Why? Why is it not even close? I’m not saying he won’t win, but please explain to me your reasoning behind this.
jj, your post encouraged me to double check the stats….
It’s hard to make any competent argument against Shohei. I didn’t realize he made it to 600 plate appearances so basically a full year offensively.
The BR WAR difference is over 3.0 from Shohei to Seags right now.
What’s Seager’s ERA?
DS
I agree with the sentiment, but it’s not a strong argument.
What’s Ohtani’s DRS or UZR?
Ohtani and Seager both help their teams score by batting and running the bases.
Ohtani and Seager both help their teams prevent runs. Ohtani by pitching (and by fielding his position). Seager by playing defense.
Also, do you think, say, Garret Cole is more valuable than, say, Aaron Hicks? What’s Cole’s wRC+?
Or, do you think that Josh Donaldson (0.00 ERA in 1 IP) is more valuable than Seager because Donaldson has both pitched and hit? Of course, I hope, you don’t. Because you know that just because someone pitches and hits that doesn’t mean they are super valuable.
What matters is how many runs Ohtani produces offensively vs how many he prevents defensively. And he’s the best in baseball when it’s looked at that way.
How the Angels doing?
30P
They are bad.
How is Ohtani’s value changed by his teammates?
MVP on a losing team makes no sense. I understand the idea, I disagree. I think team record and a player’s impact on same is a significant factor in MVP consideration. The MVP award, generally, is flawed.
Seager.
So, you also think that, say, Leody Taveras is more valuable than Ohtani?
Travis Jankowski?
Andrew Heaney?
All of those guys contributed something to a playoff contender.
Who would be your top 10?
I get that you’re on the soapbox, Fili, these canned arguments get old. What I’m saying is I would pick Seager as Seager has had a significant impact, more so than those players you referenced, on carrying his team toward the playoffs. We disagree.
30p
I’m asking who would be your top 10?
Also, the MVP voting rules superficially state that MVP’s do not need to come from contenders
bbwaa.com/voting-faq/
0.00 with a career ERA of 0.00. Pretty solid to me.
Team record should have nothing to do with it. Ohtani shouldn’t be punished and Seager shouldn’t be awarded simply because the rangers have a better team than LAA. Both teams could not be in the playoffs.
Seattle wins 90 games like clockwork? They have two in the last 20 years.
0.00
Where would Seager’s team be in the standings without him? Where would Ohtani’s team be without him? That’s what makes a player valuable.
Srynee
The Rangers would likely be about 7 games worse
The Angels would likely be about 10 games worse
So, Ohtani has been more valuable
I don’t see where 30 said the MCP should be a Texas Ranger
Your argy is silly
I don’t see where 30 said the MCP should be a Texas Ranger
Your argy is silt
0.00, pretty good!
Dark horse: Julio. Let’s see what he does these last couple weeks of the year. He’s capable of shooting his name to the top.
But I like Seager, if not for his DL stints his homers and rbis would be even more inflated. He’s been the most consistent elite hitter in the AL
(Except for Shohei)
If Shohei gets it, I’m not going to bat an eye. It would be kind of like giving to it Jordan instead of Malone in ‘98, right? But I genuinely think Seager should get it as the Mailman to Ohtanis Jordan.
Obviously we’re taking apples and oranges as far as the sports, but the equity is similar to me.
It’s not close. 2 weeks will not help Seager.
Ohtani has 9 fWAR. Seager is 6.6 fWAR.
Ohtani has 10 bWAR. Seager is 6.9 bWAR.
If Seager had another 6-8 weeks to play, maybe. He’d have to sustain his season production or better across that time period to make it close, though.
> If Seager had another 6-8 weeks to play
Seager missed 42 days with injuries. There’s his 6 weeks
Thankfully, Seager missed that time because I know for a fact he would have batted .000/.000/.000 in 150 PA, while making 52 errors and contributing -27 WAR during that time he didn’t play. Good thing he missed those games that he never played!
SODOMOJO
“But I genuinely think Seager should get it ”
why?
You’ve already said that Ohtani is the better hitter
“He’s been the most consistent elite hitter in the AL
(Except for Shohei)”
Do you think that Seager’s run prevention has topped Ohtani’s?
The only argument I can present that has any merit is that Seager plays on a winning team that is likely going to the playoffs. So, How much value do you put into that when it comes to MVP debate? Probably not enough to knock Shohei off the pedestal.
This post above was actually before the response above it. Once I checked Ohtanis war and saw that it was at freaking 10 with 600 abs….this are cold hard facts, very difficult to argue for a guy with 3.0 less war. That’s an entire Cal Raleigh (2.9 war). Amazing.
This is about what player was more valuable to their team. This is not about who the better player is. That person should get player of the year, not mvp.
WAR is a theoretical rating system. Someone’s Idea. There’s even different versions. You may be using it to help your fantasy league, but its just some websites opinion. Its definitely not a cold hard fact.
“A statistic is not a cold hard fact”
………….
I don’t know what to say to that. It’s a formula. It’s not a random concoction of whatever Bill James wants for every player lol.
WAR isn’t the end all be all but what it can do is provide us with at least somewhat of a glimpse as to how valuable someone like Ohtani actually is. You take his WAR and combine it with everything else, not sure how you can argue that there was anybody better in the American League.
Again, place whatever value on team success that you want; I’m not gonna allow that to overcome FOR EXAMPLE 3.0 WAR. We can sit here and list out all of his other impressive numbers, but it’s not really necessary.
It’s as cold and as hard as a fact of batting average, home runs, ERA, saves, etc
Your understanding of baseball is theoretical. There is a very good reason EVERY team uses WAR in evaluating players. That you don’t understand it is on you. Those IVY league guys with doctorate degrees in math in the FO of all the teams do understand it and how to apply it.
Filihok/ Halofan11 same person
Why is it you argue over ever singles persons opinion? Is that not what this forum is about? Instead you troll and argue any thoughts that are not in line with your own.
I think/ want Ohtani to win the MVP. I am opposed to any long term contract because I feel they are, in the long run, detrimental far more often.
Yet, I don’t bully every persons response. Yesterday you chose to try and pick apart my thoughts.
Your tirades are worrisome .
The rules have changed. You cannot tank like the Astros
And why is it every outsiders claims the Angels farm system is atrocious? By the look of all the youngsters brought up this year. They are far from bad.
hg
Well,
Stuff like this
blogs.fangraphs.com/how-the-draft-and-the-trade-de…
hg
Because you misunderstand.
I don’t care what the argument is, I just want it it be well-reasoned.
Unfortunately, most people don’t know how to construct a well-reasoned argument.
I often point out flaws in arguments that I am on the same side of.
A bad argument is a bad argument whether I agree with that side or not.
It is close offensively, virtually the same wRC+, but Ohtani has a 100 plus more PAs. Advantage Ohtani.
Now, does Seager’s average shortstop play, zero outs above above average, surpass Ohtani’s 145 innings with a 145 ERA plus?
It’s not close. Seager doesn’t even belong in this conversation.
Now is that a better argument?
stymeedone15 hours ago
WAR is a theoretical rating system.
==========================
Ohtani has more runs scored, more triples, more HRs, more RBIs. and more SBs. I’d wager that Ohtani wins the MVP.
Of 7 year or longer contracts that are currently completed, over half created surplus value for the team over their term from the players performance on the field.
Since baseball is a business and not all value comes just from playing the game, I am certain that a higher percentage of the deals the teams would consider a success financially.
Fans have a bad habit at looking only at the bad contracts while ignoring the good ones. Or looking at contracts after 1 or 2 years. Or they look at the bad seasons at the end and then say it was a bad overall contract. Nothing could be further from the truth and teams sign these deals knowing they will get surplus value upfront and have to take a few poor years at the tail end.
The biggest issues the Angels have had when it comes to contracts is that their owner has refused to give more than a 3 year deal to a pitcher. You will never sign the best starting pitchers for a 3 year deal. Also that he has been more interested in signing position players that draw fans than in getting the best possible team on the field.
It’s close, because Ohtani got injured. Seager currently has the higher OPS+ in fewer games.
IMO, that is the unifying sabermetric determinant, even amongst the most dogmatic types.
Seager needs to eclipse Ohtani in hits and RBI to steal it from him. It’s still Ohtani’s award.
No why should he get MVP? His team is in 4th place only ahead of the A’s who are having one of the worst regular seasons EVER. Without Ohtani the Angels would still be in 4th place. How is that valuable? You could replace Ohtani with any minor leaguer and the Angels would still be in 4th place. The Angels have two of the best players EVER and cannot manage to even get into the playoffs. No time in baseball has it ever been easier to make the playoffs yet the Angels and Ohtani find a way, not MVP.
Zerbs
This argument never makes any since to me.
So, Ohtani is less valuable (because his teammates are bad) than, say, Yennier Cano, Orioles reliever, because the Orioles are in a close race?
Same logic applies as to why a player should not be in the HOF bc they lack hardware on the shelf and WS ring(s). Clearly the voters haven’t been agreeing with Zerbs’ take.
YBC and zerbs
Right. It’s a weird disincentive to vote for good players for MVP.
Acuna is less valuable because the Braves also have Matt Olson (and a bunch of other good playeys)? They’d still be in first without him?
Mookie and Freeman aren’t MVP worthy because they are on the same team as the other guy?
Every 1 WAR player on a team one win better than their closest competitor is more valuable than the best players on teams who win their division handily?
I don’t get it.
Explain it to me, zerbs
“So Ohtani is less valuable”..
For me, MVP is still partially a team award. If your team is bringing up the rear, they CAN do that without you. Theoretically in a tie race, team standing could be used as a tie breaker.
Is it about value to his team or is it his stats versus everybody else?I know what he is doing is amazing but if their is no one else doing it how do you compare him?To Ruth from a 100 years ago?People said Judge last year but Ohtani was still contributing on both sides of the field.
TBSNY
You compare players by measuring how many runs the contribute offensively and how many runs they save defensively.
Ohtani is dominating.
Judge was better last year. And he contributed on both sides of the field as well.
Why do people forget that pitching and playing a defensive position both help to prevent runs?
Im on comparative individual performance in isolation. So stats. Otherwise the best performing player in the game has no award.
Best Player Award…yes.. MVP from a 4th place losing team,Heck Nah
DDS
from the BBWAA rules that are handed out to voters
“There seems to always be a debate about the definition of the MVP. What does the ballot say?
The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.”
bbwaa.com/voting-faq/
Why do people just make up their own [stuff] and think it is valid?
Fili, stop cherry picking to support your position. If you read the bbwaa comment on MVP, you’d note that it starts with “ There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. ”. While they recognize that there is no definitive agreement on what constitutes MVP, they do relate it to their value to their respective team. They make no mention of any statistics, just their value to their team. Value can come in all kinds of different ways including the intangibles such as leadership, club house presence, impact on younger players, etc. as well as revenue generated if you look at “team” from the eyes of the team owners.
Not a fan of any awards, most are popularity contests as is the All-Star voting, so really don’t care who wins the MVP.
Skeptical
Sure, they don’t say what value is
What they DO say is that the MVP does not have to be from a contender.
So, anyone saying they wouldn’t vote for Ohtani because the Angels aren’t a contender are going against the states instructions.
The argument is not that any player on a playoff team is more valuable than Ohtani. If you take Cano off the Orioles, it would make a difference, but they likely make the playoffs. There may be a single player on each playoff team that is more deserving, but not every team has to have one. They could have had an outstanding season, or like Kirk Gibson with LAD, changed the team culture with their leadership. The qualifier is that they provided difference making value to their team. No player on the Angels meets that requirement. Unless you count their affect on the turnstyles. If that is the case, just give the award to the player who sold the most jerseys.
Stymee
The voter instructions literally say that doesn’t matter
Edit
Or, te-readibg
You have no idea what player rah Ray’s their teammates to make the better than they would be otherwise
The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
It is a best player award. Virtually every voter agrees.
MLB, the BBWAA says the opposite in their instructions to voters.
Why does a WS MVP or All Star MVP have to be on the winning team? Many times guys with better stats on the losing team don’t get the award. Why is that?
To me a guy on a 4th place team who hasn’t even played in a meaningful game in an about a month isn’t an MVP. Now if you have a dominant player who was fighting for a playoff spot up until the end, but just missed the playoffs or just barely got in that’s different.
HOF is different it’s an individuals career stats compared to other players career stats. There are many players who have an incredible season, but arnt in the HOF.
Zerbs
Maybe that’s what you think
The BBWAA voter instructions specifically say that MVPs don’t have to be on contending teams.
bbwaa.com/voting-faq/
“The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.”
What part of the voting instructions do you NOT understand?
Here they are again
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
Does it say ANYWHERE that the team wins more games? No. Do you know why? Because in baseball it takes an entire team, a 40 man roster, to win. That doesn’t change the value of the individual player.
Why dog on the A’s? I mean it’s true, but c’mon man haven’t we suffered enough?
@Zerbs, that’s the way I see it. I still don’t think Seager will win because the media loves Ohtani and he’d probably win MVP even if he had only managed half a season of play. With a mostly full season of hitting and pitching though, Seager probably gets 4 or 5 first place votes from people who believe in the contending team factor, but the rest go to Ohtani because he’s a freak of nature.
Trout and Ohtani are probably the two most decorated losers in the history of baseball.
Muted
Let us not forget Ernie Banks.
Zerbs,
Why penalize Ohtani because LAA was constructed terribly? He was by far their best pitcher and hitter this year. It’s not his fault that they have a bunch of ding-dongs, Owner on down, running the team. The other players on the angels are terrible and that should not be his fault. No wonder he wants to live in a van under a bridge, with all the abuse he reads here on MLBTR.
Hemlock
This way of “thinking” also penalizes players like Mookie, Freeman and Acuna.
Can’t vote for players who play for teams that blow their competition out of the water. Angels can finish 4th without Ohtani. Braves can finish first without Acuna. Dodgers can finish first without Mookie or Freeman.
The only valuable players are the ones on teams in tight races
No ones penalizing anyone. Did he make a difference for the Angels? If he didn’t, you can’t say the opportunity wasn’t there.
The argument that because a player’s teammates stink that he is somehow not valuable is pretty asinine. What others do doesn’t change your value.
If Ohtani was not on the Angels they would have been a 100 loss team. Think about someone like Moose as their DH instead of the best hitter in the AL and someone like Barria or Davidson getting those 23 starts Ohtani made. Its not a pretty thought.
And marks the end of this Angels career. Welcome to the Toronto Blue Jays
Toronto Blue Jays: a franchise only slightly less futile than the Angels.
You must not be old enough to remember 1992 and 1993 back to back.
I’m not a Toronto fan but still that comment had to be addressed.
So ‘Since 1994, slightly less futile than the Angels’. There I fixed it.
I think the point ‘ben’ was making is for several of the years, both teams have had great teams on paper, then the season starts.
Ltc
I mean, the Angels have won a lot more recently than that…
Blue Jays 1992/1993, Angels 2002, pretty soon you guys will have to talk about the teams by starting the story with, “listen here whipper snappers, I remember a long time ago…”
If you have to go back 30 years, that’s not a very good, “well actuuuuualllly”
But I thought the idea was that flags fly forever. Are you now saying they have expiration dates?
Not after that series against the Rangers…
The Angels of the AL East
Someone drug test this guy.
Amazing player. Historic player. Could go down as the best to ever do it. With that being said:
Buyer. Beware.
He’s the best baseball player of all time, skills-wise. He surpassed Babe Ruth, who had the advantage of playing in a segregated era. To your point, Ohtani also comes with slowing down later in the season. Just part of the package.
i like al conin;
Please……
Your post reminds me of when my cousin in Chicago told my WWII father that that a young Ryne Sandberg was a better 2nd baseman than Rogers Hornsby.
Babe Ruth hit more HRs in 1921 than any other TEAM. He has pitching records that still stand 100 years later. Ohtani is just the new shiny object and Ruth was a century ago. I doubt anyone on this site saw him play. Ohtani, when healthy, is the best player in the game today. Ruth was better.
People should look up Ruth’s stats. Unbelievable over a 22 year career.
What everyone forgets when comparing Ohtani to Ruth is, when Ruth wasn’t pitching, he was playing in the outfield with a career .968 fielding percentage. He didn’t have the ‘luxury’ of only hitting when not pitching.
There’s really no comparison.
You all are blinded by the Yankees propaganda machine. Ruth only had 7 other AL teams to play against in 1921, against players not the athletes of today, never against the best competition bc of segregation and didn’t have seasons that Ohtani has. Face it- the Yankees have lost the title of having the best player of all time.
never against the best competition bc of segregation
===========================
While true, all the best athletes played baseball. No one played FB or B-ball to make money.
“Screw you guys, I’m going home.”
-Shohei Ohtani
Breaking: Shohei Ohtani accused of plagiarism.
“Whatever, whatever, I do what I want! I’m in 12 gangs!”
Shohei Ohtani AKA Mitch Conner
“I think the people in the front office are idiots” ohtani
“No just a communication gap” his agent
“Are you sure ?” Ohtani
“Sorry, I was wrong, and you need to get the hell out of there” agent
The first MVP to ditch the team mid-season
deGrom Texas Ranger
7:48 Does Ohtani ditching his team midseason impact his free agency value and/or his MVP candidacy?
Owned
Mark P
7:49 It’s not midseason and he didn’t “ditch his team,” so the framing of this question is a little off. Ohtani is still going to win the MVP, his numbers are just too incredible
Sounds like Ohtani’s agent…
You need to stop now. Someone leaving to have surgery on the elbow, well into September, is not remotely close to ditching his team in mid-season.
So now he has 2 injuries. Pony up the dough teams.
He didn’t die and go to heaven after-all with Poochie from the Simpsons?
Also, I guess he was reaching for his wallet one too many times to pick up the tab for dinner for everyone
Seriously though, he should pick one or the other
1.) Pitcher fulltime
2..) DH
I don’t think he can do both anymore
Well talent wise he can, but going day in and day out against the best the world has to offer, is not a good idea physically
I don’t care who you are
He’s about to win his second MVP award. Your argument is using coffee stir sticks as postings and marbles as a foundation.
Considering he’s torn his UCL a second time, I think his days as a pitcher are almost over.
Considering it’s already been announced that his current tear is low grade, and completely unrelated to his prior surgery, I think your days as a competent commenter are almost over.
Denial…
Exactly what would you expect his agent to actually say….the prior UCL issue has reared its head again and cause another issue…..a tear, regardless of how “minor” it is has shelved him from pitching for the next 12 months and there’s not guarantee that either he comes back better than ever, or that future injuries aren’t in the cards for him….2 way player buyer beware…..
Poochie went back to his home planet.
Gotta get your Simpsons references right if you want your comments to be considered cromulent.
Well I was bit a confused
Or I was being positive about going to heaven
However Poochie died on tbe way back to his home planet
I think he needs to be a closer for a while
Or high end reliever. Give the elbow a few years off. John Smoltz did it. He’s not pitching next year so the year after be a closer
Good idea.
Problem with him being a reliever is that he can’t warm up if his spot in the order might come up or if he’s running the bases.
Yeah. Good point.
I mean he doesn’t play the field so why can’t he get loose during that time ? It would require some timing but not as much as you think
JM
Tell me how you think this would work
Because I don’t see how a player can simultaneously 1) get ready to pitch and 2) take an at bat or run the bases or prepare for an at bat
I suppose you could have him warm during the 8th then sit while his team is batting (like a starter does), but that doesn’t seem ideal
It’s about timing. The guy doesn’t play the field so for 4.5 innings he’s not doing anything. And he’s definitely not batting all the other innings. He gets on average probably 4.5 at bats a game he’s not going to bat every inning. It’s all
about timing
LOL, Ohtani, while batting 2nd or 3rd has never sniffed 4.5ABs per game. Do you people not understand that there is this website called Baseball Reference? Look it up before you post.
That’s the smallest of points. Add something to the conversation instead of being a troll.
JM
I asked you to tell me how you see it working
You didn’t do so
I’ll ask again
How do you see the timing working? I’m asking you to explain your position
He has 4.5 innings every game he’s not doing anything. So he can warm up then. And then you have to see where’s he’s batting. If he just went to bat in the 6th or 7th he can go to bullpen to warm up. Obviously if he’s coming up soon he has to stay in the dug out. It can be done.
Or maybe you have ohtani be an opener mainly for 2 innings then you don’t have to worry about the warming up
I wasn’t calling you a troll it was the other guy
You don’t seem to understand pitching at all. A closer starts his warm up process in the 7th inning. In the 8th and 9th he is STILL warming up. A pitcher can’t warm up, stop to go wait in the dugout while waiting to see if he will bat than inning then go back out to the pen and warm up again. It doesn’t work that way.
If he is coming up to bat in the 7th or 8th or 9th as he will MOST GAMES, he cannot be out in the pen doing his warm up process to close. Its not possible.
“the smallest of points”
It’s the entire basis for your post. I refuted it with fact. If that makes me a troll, then so be it.
Try checking baseball reference before making ridiculous statements.
Never have I seen a pitcher warm up for 3 innings. He can do his stretching and all that in Locker room. He isn’t throwing more then 25 warm up pitches if that.
Warming up is not all throwing the ball and closers absolutely make warm up pitches for more than 1/2 an inning.
As I said, you don’t understand pitching.
Rumor has it that he’s auditioning to be the new Jets QB.
That big fast monster would be terrifying running around with the ball like Cam Newton or Josh Allen
Especially after the Angels started pumping him with 5000 calories a day and massive weight training.
That’s as believable as him becoming a Yankee or Met this offseason! To which the Jets reply Rodgers Dodgers, over and out!
So much drama behind placing him on the IL. Seems like there’s more behind it all
That’s about enough of this soft little diva.
Angels definitely should have traded him and now will get nothing for this once in a lifetime talent. A real shame.
5’5” 300lb guys eating potato chips and beer before noon , commenting on how soft Shohei is , how he quits lol
Every player in mlb marvels at this guy.
Fans of losing or disappointing teams are so irrational.
Ohtani definitely would have kept playing if he was able to without risking even more injury. Not only is it a culture thing, but Ohtani has shown a “never quit” personality.
Are u the one looking through that camera on my phone ?
No need to get personal and it sounds like you might be calling on past experience with this detailed rant?! For what it’s worth, I just think he wants a clean break from them, so the Angels can’t manipulate his free agency by falsely claiming to be negotiating with him whenever he talks to a west coast team!
Ohtani is injury prone. Whoever pays him needs to have that in mind.
Yes. They’ll have that… and the 10 WAR he’ll provide on their minds.
Mariners check the boxes for weird and thorough contracts (Julio deal), adding in injury clauses (Felix and Castillo), having a strong Japanese influence in the city, needing a DH, loving Ohtani, not needing starters in 2024, having money to offer a mega deal, and giving Ohtani the chance to casually stick it to the Angels every season for wasting 6 years of his career!
They also have the wildcard of having converted starters often and successfully into high-leverage relievers (Brash, Campbell, etc.) and could be a good way to let Ohtani keep pitching after he recovers. I don’t think you can honestly expect him to be a starter coming off a 2nd TJ surgery, which seems likely for him.
Ohtani as a DH and closer would allow him to impact both sides of the game and he could possibly be a more valuable close than a starter, especially if it can help him avoid future injury. His splitter would be great in late inning situations, and he would probably be able to live in the 100-102 range over short stints.
Quite possibly the worst three months of luck any MLB organization has suffered in MLB history.
Is it luck, or poor decision making? I guess it’s a mix of both, but at this point, I think their poor decisions outweigh the bad luck.
Rodriguez shoulder surgery
O’Hoppe torn labrum
Urshela broken pelvis
Trout broken hand
Adell back issues
Ward hit in the face
Neto multiple IL stints
Rendon fractured tibia
Silseth concussion
Ohtani UCL
Ohtani Oblique
Rengifo torn bicep
Please explain how any of these are anything other than bad luck.
-multitude of bad contracts
-selling off pieces of a depleted farm to attempt a run that was an extremely uphill battle to start with
-letting go of most of the players the team sold part of the farm for in less than a month
-Not trading Ohtani when the better choice probably was trading him
Again, it’s a mix, but saying just bad luck is ignoring at least half of the problems.
you obviously know very little about the guys that were traded. Stick to the Pirates.
Sounds like a typical MLB season for the Mariners and they seem to put up 90 win seasons like clockwork! Which season you want to compare?! Pick any season 2021-2023 and the Mariners have overcome just as much!
LOL. you know nothing. SEA has had 7 players on the IL all season for only 731 combined days and $26.6mil of pay on IL, almost all of it Robbie Ray.
Angels. 15 players. 914 days. $32mil of pay on IL.
Pro tip. Don’t post about what you know nothing about.
I might not be a professional scout, but this is what I do know, which in my opinion, seems to be enough to get an idea of how well the trades went. Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez were acquired for Ky Bush and Edgar Quero. Bush was a former second round pick who has struggled this year, but showed off some decent stuff in the past. Quero was ranked as a top 100 prospect by some outlets. As of right now, FanGraphs ranks him as the 48th best prospect in baseball. He is a bat first backstop with a decent hit tool and some power.
Randal Grichuk and CJ Cron were acquired for Mason Albright and Jake Madden. Albright was a 12th round pick lefty who throws in the low-90s, but with a good curveball. He is only 20, and is currently having a solid year with both the Angels and now Rockies affiliates. Jake Madden throws closer to the mid-90s, wtih an above average slider and plus change-up. Madden struggles with command, but has a strong built frame, and a high ceiling.
Admiditly, the Angels did not give up much to acquire either Mike Moustakas or Eduardo Escobar. However, the the fact of the matter is the Angels still gave up young talent, for two rentals who currently have an OPS+ below 80 (Moustakas at 73 and Escobar at 56).
Here’s another thing I know: Baseball America currently ranks the Angels’ system as the worst in baseball right now. FanGraphs also ranks them last, while MLB Pipeline placed them at 28th after the trade deadline in their mid-August update. Where did these outlets rank them at the start of the 2022 season? FanGraphs put them at 28th, as well as MLB Pipeline. I cannot find Baseball America’s preseason farm system rankings, though I can say Keith Law had them at 25 in his preseason rankings.
I work from home right now, and one of my current jobs basically requires me to be up to date with prospects, trades, and other stuff going on around the league. I have a subscription to Baseball America as well, and read many of their articles, updates, scouting reports, and recieve their magazine once a month.
Again, can you forsee all those injuries? No, and it would be unreasonable to do so. I am not a genius by any means, and I don’t know everything, but here’s what I do know: the Angels traded away multiple top 30 prospects from a farm system that ranked, by most measures, in the bottom five going into the year. The Angels have consistently had a high payroll. The Angels have had a player finish top ten in MVP voting every year since 2012.
“90 wins like clockwork”
2004 63 wins
2005 69 wins
2006 78 wins
2007 88 wins
2008 61 wins
2009 85 wins
2010 61 wins
2011 67 wins
2012 75 wins
2013 71 wins
2014 87 wins
2015 76 wins
2016 86 wins
2017 78 wins
2018 89 wins
2019 68 wins
2021 90 wins
2022 90 wins
Yes,2 out of 20 is “like clockwork”
And yet still more playoff appearances in the last 8 years than the angels.
A broken clock has the correct time twice a day..
brooklyn
Right. 2 out of 24 is like clockwork
mlb1225;
The things you analytical people do by putting on blinders and doing numbers, is that you live in a vacuum as if there are no external variables, and constantly miss the overriding fundamental issues that create the environment to make decisions……be it FO people acquiring personnel or the players hitting and pitching.
Going into the 2023 season, Arte’s top priority was to keep Ohtani in Anaheim. To do that he wanted to “Win Now”. When franchises are in that mode, they don’t make rational decisions. Arte’s edict was obviously to have GM Perry Minasian bring in veteran players available to “fill holes” on the depth chart, cost be damned – and when some of those players and others got hurt he wanted Minasian to bring in replacements ASAP. Since the Angels didn’t have a surplus of veteran players, Minasian had to make trades – often taking on salary for young players he’d drafted that he’d probably rather keep. It’s what Mr. Minasian was directed to do by his employer, and that’s what he did. Do you think Minasian and his staff were walking around excitingly exclaiming “Gee, I sure hope the Reds will make the 2023 edition of Mike Moustakas and his out-of-line salary available for some of our prospects!”?
Now you show up and want to dissect each trade as if what the Angels FO did was rational. It wasn’t, and anyone that follows MLB knows it. Desperate owners have their FO heads do desperate things. Scott Boras has made a fortune for his clients and built a billion dollar company over a 40-plus year period living off of desperate MLB owners and FO heads.
Next dissect the Padres trades over the past 5 years….although that seems to be initiated by the GM with the owner buying in…..and I do mean Buying.
I’m not sure if you think what I was trying to do is justify the Angels decisions or not. I agree, what they did was irrational. I only was talking about their deadline deals because I wanted to show what was given up for a month worth of players, most of which are now gone. I didn’t really use analytics either. I understand that desperation means that rationality goes out the window sometimes.
Which of these things is not like the other?
Rendon’s fractured tibia was the only good luck the Angels had last year, the way that he’s been playing.
Piss poor training staff. The Angels have sustained an unusually high rate of injuries for years. It’s where pitchers literally go to die.
You are really arrogant and wrong. The Angels had twice the payroll of the Mariners, so they succeeded with a lower payroll and 20% of their budge on the IL, while the Angels based on your numbers spent twice as much, had two of the best players in the league, only had 10% of the payroll on the IL and still sucked. Now let’s talk about the last two seasons.
Last year we lost our C and RF for almost the whole season and still went to the playoffs. Murphy was the opening day starter at catcher and Haniger was the right fielder. Julio also missed nearly a month of the season, JP and France were played injured for most of the second half of the year, and Cal played with a broken thumb for the last 1/4 of the season and the playoffs. The only healthy players all season were our average at best 2B (Frazier) and our 3B (Suarez). We were succeeding on the backs of guys like Dylan Moore and Sam Haggerty.
Teams deal with injuries and you’re just a spoiled Angels fan who doesn’t realize this is what teams deal with and 200 days divided by 25 roster spots is only an extra week of IL time. Those 5-7 contests won’t be the reason you guys lose 87-90 games this season. We literally are fighting for a playoff spot after DFAing our #6 starter, and losing two of our opening day rotation (Ray and Gonzales).
Our success is because we draft better, we develop better, and our players perform better when given the chance. We’ve promoted a full rotation worth of starters in the last two plus seasons (Gilbert, Kirby, Miller, Woo, and Hancock), we even traded away a MLB prospect who is in the Reds rotation (Phillips), who otherwise might be pushing for starts on this team.
Our roster was built to withstand injuries and poor performance through depth and development. The Angels never build in that safety net and that’s why they suffered when things when sideways. We also didn’t go out and get a bunch of players through trades and signings when the injures started. We never replaced Ray with a guy from outside the organization, but the Angels grabbed Escobar to replace Rendon, Moustakas to replace Walsh, Then augmented the team with Grichuk, Giolito, Lopez, etc.
The Mariners big trade was sending Sewald to Arizona for Canzone, Rojas, and a prospect. So stop acting like the Mariners have solved problems with money or luck staying healthy. We’ve succeeded because we are a better run organization, plain and simple.
Pro tip, don’t be a jerk when you already look like a tool.
Oh and by the way, Angels suck! Woooooooo!
Yeah, and how have they done under Dipoto?! 89 wins, rebuild for two years, then 90 wins for potentially three straight seasons including 2023.
It’s worth noting that their irrational decisions in 2023 were based on trying to make up for the failures of the previous half decade. So the vacuum thing being talked about goes both ways. So you aren’t wrong and it’s a stupid argument to say the Angels are struggling today because they were irrational, when that irrational decision making was because they put themselves in a hole previously.
The argument being made by Samuel is the Angels aren’t a badly run team, they were simply irrational because of the edict to win by Ohtani and Moreno, if Shohei was to stay an Angel. However, a team that wasn’t run badly wouldn’t have only this season to prove they could be a winning team. The Angels have been a badly run team for a long time, which is why there was so much pressure to be good this year. While 2023 was the year of irrational decisions for the Angels, the previous decade of poor decisions casts a huge shadow of influence over that irrational behavior. Had the Angels won 90 games the last two years, this year wouldn’t matter as much, but bad decisions led to the pressure that broke their season in 2023.
Angel fans: Can you come up with a playoff competitive lineup with trout and ohtani ?
I think you can
Maybe ?
Let’s leave pitching aside for the moment.
Just talking bats
Angels season done
Free agent
Injury needs surgery
Makes sense to sit out rest of season
Thank God The “ Hollywood “ Dodgers didn’t sign Rendon
Sounds a lot like Chapman when he ditched the team in the playoffs… I guess he gets aaay with anything since he is liked by the media?
It’s a shame that two of the greatest generational talents in our lifetime have yet not been in a position to be Mr. October. Hopefully Ohtani chooses a winner better than Judge, Harper or Machado. Ohtani would put Seattle over the top (imagine him and Rodriguez) or make Atlanta a perennial WS entrant – Acuna, Riley, Albies, Olson, etc… As much as I would like him on the Giants, the Giants have nothing to offer. He will wither and die much like Webb.
Trout had a chance and then he could have left after his 6+ years of service time, but he took the money and chose to go all in on a garbage organization, instead of leaving and testing free agency a few years ago. Now the Angels have two albatross deals (Trout and Rendon) to go with a team that can’t make good decisions on accident. Who wants to bet on Chaim Bloom being hired to replace the Angels GM within the next 12 months?! He’s exactly the kind of splashy household named moron Moreno would value.
Don’t forget the fact that a large section of Giant fans have the resilience of the wet tissue they wipe their crying eyes with. He could definitely do better in the fan base criteria.
Maybe ElAttrache had a 20% off Friday special Arte couldn’t resist
What did I tell you. Angel’s management are a bunch of beta male softies. They should have shut Shohei earlier.
He probably strained his oblique adjusting his swing mechanics to compensate for the elbow.
“beta male:
muted
Why don’t the Angels just waive him in their battle to get under the tax line?
And lose that 4th round compensation pick?!
So glad the Mariners didn’t leverage their prospects for a partial season of Ohtani. Pretty much every team is probably feeling this way except the Angels who just get to live with a ton of regret! I can’t see how the Angels aren’t considered the worst run organization based on a ton of decisions reaching a peak of failure where they somehow threaded the loop of long term failure and then slam dunking it on the league in an epic statement of ineptitude and failure!
They made the worst series of decisions within one baseball season, and have made the worst 2-3 year stretch of overall organizational decisions since then.. Starting with keeping Ohtani for his last season, also not trading Trout prior to 2023, sending Raisel Iglesias away for peanuts in 2022, only to acquire Estevez and a bunch of bullpen help within the next 6 months.
There’s them constantly picking up every player they could to band-aid another player going on the IL, while promoting their two best prospects in Neto and Schanuel to start their service clock, only to potentially haven them waste most of their control years on a rebuilding team with O’Hoppe. But my favorite was the 2021 draft where they only picked pitchers and got nothing but garbage.
The Angels have received 0.4 bWAR from Sam Bachman (round 1/pick 9), and 0.2 bWAR from Chase Silseth (round 11/pick 321) for a grand total of 0.6 with none ranked in the Top 100 prospects, and only two of their remaining top 10 picks even showing any hope of making a MLB roster as a reliever in Ryan Costeiu and Nck Jones. Even then Costeiu has missed the whole season with an elbow injury.
By comparison, the M’s were able to find two Top 100 MLB prospect SPs who have already proven to be middle rotation starters in Bryce Miller (round 4/pick 113) worth 1.4 bWAR and Bryan Woo (round 6/pick 174) worth 0.5 bWAR, a total of 1.9 bWAR. They also got a third Top 100 prospect in C Harry Ford, and a fourth Top 100 prospect Edwin Arroyo (round 2/pick 48) along with their 14th round pick Andrew Moore, were 1/2 the return for Reds SP Luis Castillo.
The jewels of that draft are not limited to those four Top 100 prospects, Their 3rd round pick is still an interest mid to back of the rotation starter, the 5th round pick Andy Thomas was 1/2 of the trade that brought C Casali and SP Boyd from the Giants during the pennant chase in 2022 and was only meant to be a undervalued pick getting only $25K of the $379K slot bonus to manipulate the money in their draft pool.
Spencer Packard (9th rounder) was also under slot for $25K of the original $156K value, a savings of $131K. He’s gone on to be a .841 OPS hitter across three season with great plate discipline. The 11th round pick William Fleming was 1/2 of the Royals return for Carlos Santana. Then 12th round pick Corey Rosier was 1/2 the trade for 2B Adam Frazier. Finally, James Parker (8th rounder) and SP Jimmy Joyce (16th rounder) are still interesting prospects.
That the Angels got a backend starter and a reliever out of the same draft the Mariners got 12 players who were trade pieces for All-Stars Castillo, Frazier, and Santana, along with pennant additions in Boyd and Casali, while still retaining a future starting catcher, two starting pitchers, and a handful of at least role players, while picking 3 spots after the Angels in every round. That is literally the difference between the current fates of these two organizations.
Ohtani played it beautifully. Gave a last power demonstration batting practice for all prospective teams to show the UCl doesn’t affect his swing. Then bow out w an oblique like so many of his teammates. And then ghost the team.
Extremely talented but injury prone player. Sign him long term is a risk meats.
For people arguing over the MVP race, how much worse of a team are the Angels without Ohtani this year? I’m not saying Ohtani is a sure fire MVP winner, but without his pitching and hitting the Angels are a much worse team this year. Sure his team underperformed in every aspect, but hus stats are worthy of being MVP. The same goes for Seager’s hitting stats. He is a major force in the Texas lineup and has the numbers to be a MVP winner. His team was just better this year.
SLNPB
See, Ohtani is less valuable because of what Tyler Anderson did.
And Seager is more valuable because of what Marcus Simien did.
I think that is the argument.
Well baseball is a team sport. Matt Olson has 125 or so raised. That means people were on base when he hit his 52 home runs. Take out Olson’s 52 hrs and are the Braves leading the national league home field race by as many games as they are. Individual performances are subjective. Only 1 person can win but it is stupid to argue over the team aspect.
The Angels are a clown organization. They should be trading anybody worth wild including Phil Nevin. Absolute disaster. Sign Rhys Hoskins and that clown show and rebuild
Ummm, Phil Nevin isn’t worth anything, he’ll be lucky if he’s coaching in the Independent Leagues this time next year. The list of valuable assets making more than league minimum in 2024: Brandon Drury, Taylor Ward, Reid Detmers, and Patrick Sandoval. The rest of the team is too young to trade, too expensive to get anything in return (Rendon, Trout, Anderson, Stassi, and Fletcher). So whatever they do will either require money to trade those five bad contracts, money to add free agents, or leveraging the four players with trade value (Drury, Ward, Detmers, and Sandoval) to add prospects and young players. What makes things worse is they won’t get a slam dunk draft pick in the 1st round, the return for Ohtani is going to be a 4th rounder which they’ll mess up, and nobody else besides Shohei is worth a Qualifying Offer.
They only need a couple things to happen for the rebuild to start taking shape: Moreno dies (he’s 83 y.o.)/sells the team, the GM gets replaced by someone competent, they compete with the A’s for the cellar title for 3-4 years, they money ball every good player off their team for two to three prospects until they have a cupboard full of Top 100 guys like the Reds did over the last three years. Stop taking on bad free agent deals for a while. In other words, the American League West is about to be a three team race for 100 wins each season for the next half decade courtesy of the 20-25 bankable wins off the California teams in their division.
Bro you want to name the batboys too.
What I stated with referenced players is that they have four players that are in their prime seasons, where there’s enough time to get something back in trade, but not enough time to rebuild around them. Anybody good in their arb years won’t be an Angel when they are ready to compete. They can’t add to those players with money because there’s nothing left to spend.
Because they have so many really bad contracts, they would have to gut their arb and pre-arb group of players to make people take on the bad deals. For instance, how much money or players will you need to include with Trout to get him off the books and get something in return and at what point is the cost of money and players not worth losing him.
I listed nine players from their 40-man roster by the way, but way to be dramatic. You guys added more than that to the roster during the season in your pursuit of 90 losses! I guess I could’ve just said you have a few useful pieces and a few really bad contracts, which means the options for the Angels rebuilding the roster are next to none, have fun sucking for a decade!!
Bye Shoehei, my favorite Angel ever ❤️
I don’t see how any team gives him a 10×50 deal at this point. 1 of those numbers are going to have to come down. 5×50, 7×35 feel like the ceiling.
Just one issue… if you think 5 years 250 makes sense, why would he take 7/245?
I don’t see how any team gives him a 10×50 deal at this point.
=======================
There is always a GM that will convince the owner that this is the key guy..
Figure that 10 years on offense should be worth. 35-40 WAR? How much more do you need from the pitching side to make it worthwhile?
If this is indeed the end of the Ohtani era in Anaheim it truly defines the term “started with a bang, ended with a whimper”…
That can be used to describe every season for the Angels over the past 10 plus seasons.
Rsox
Probably the MVP this year.
Time for the Angels to trade Trout, too.
I say give it to Trout then he’s the same type of player but doesn’t pitch both come from a broken family I mean team and would never win there lol MVP of a crappy team yes but the league nope
Angels medical staff is the worst in sports.
I heard on the Texas broadcast that he ditched his team and fled the country. This sounds like quitting your job and trashing the employer before walking out. I’m not sure morals matter much, but this has to matter somewhat. Also, if we are ignoring standings, a former Texas shortstop in 2002 better get his MVP award back from Tejada. A Rod should be mad. I know Corey won’t win, as the Japanese media and the +2 WAR boost from pitching and hitting at an average level will help him, but this should definitely harm his market. This sounds like Chapman quitting on the Yankees last year. Of course, Ohtani is liked more, so the media will continue to worship him.
ISWT
Lol, wut?
Chapman fled his team and left the state and got all this. Ohtani not only ditched the team, but he did so mid-season and left the country. The same logic applies here. Also, this best player wins logic has screwed over so many guys in the past that it’s absurd to suddenly start caring about that now. The 2 WAR boost is basically me saying 2 WAR = 0 WAA and he would have to get 4 WAR to be average over a full season (maybe 3.5 or so with the time missed) to kist be average vs 2 for a normal guy.
ISWT
Lol, wut?
The difference is that Chapman was intentionally held off the postseason roster while healthy. Ohtani is leaving a team that is guaranteed to miss the postseason, while he’s injured and unable to play as a hitter or pitcher going forward. He was going to have to clean out his locker, better to do it before the surgery and while they can use his locker for another player. I don’t think this paints a bad picture of Ohtani, but rather the organization for letting a player like him feel animus towards the only organization he’s known in Major League Baseball.
I really feel like he’s been irritated with the Angels front office and ownership for a long time and I wonder how much pressure was being forced on him to keep competing through this growing number of injuries that may or may not be related to each other. Did the blisters change the way he was throwing, leading to his UCL injury? Did his UCL injury lead to his abdominal injury? We’ll never know, but it feels like Ohtani and the Angels should’ve opted out of their relationship last offseason, instead of waiting for this to all happen in front of the press. I still think Ohtani would be a welcome addition to any team.
Muted. Not sure what took me so long.
Same to you
Having a pitcher with a tear in his UCL (or whatever) swinging a bat as hard as he can, is one of the craziest things I have ever of sports. It’s like the QB who knocked himself out headbutting the upright.
Players are people we don’t know, who don’t know we exist and here we are talking about them. Do we need to get a life?
Would you say the same about Chapman and Bauer…
That applied to about 99.999999999999999999% of the world.
So how did you like the performance of ………………. in the movie …………….. and what about the part when …………………… did that thing and then ……………………. came in doing that other thing.
Either that’s how we need to talk going forward or based on your statement, we shouldn’t as a general rule talk about politics, sports, movies, music, art, influencers, anyone else we have seen on TV, over the internet, or through live performances, and all forms of history..
That pretty much narrows the list to family, friends, and long-term co-workers?! Yet here you are talking to all of us, while you indirectly talk about Shohei Ohtani by talking about us, talking about how we talk about Shohei Ohtani!
At this point Ohtani probably has no idea what he will do.
Angels won’t have Ohtani or Trout next year.
I can’t wait to see which franchise is dumb enough to give him a 10 year deal in the offseason. I know it won’t be the Dodgers because Friedman is too cheap and will make an offer that he knows will be rejected.
RE DDC
I really wish people were knowledgeable enough to realize that contract length really doesn’t matter (and that longer dreams benefit the TEAMS)
If it wasn’t for dysfunction, they wouldn’t have any function at all!
Ohtani is definitely done with the Angels because they can’t truly trust him because he doesn’t have the best interests of the team in mind but rather himself and that’s not a team player. Let him walk, get major elbow surgery and be out of action for most of the next year or so because this definitely drops his stock.
Ohtani? The guy found out he had a tear in his elbow between games of a doubleheader and still played the second game. The Angels are deeply confused franchise that can’t be trusted to put together a winning team – Ohtani is a gamer. Mike Trout quits early damn near every year – that’s a huge issue.
Angels refused to trade Ohtani, but might move Trout. Makes no sense.
What are the odds that Ohtani opts to take a short term deal? I could see it. If an offer doesn’t blow him away then he may be smart to stay where he’s comfortable and rehab while still making a good salary. Prove he’s healthy, enter the market again. Would love him in StL as a Cards fan. Most any fan if any team can say the same. Phenomenal player
@barkinghumans77 Doubtful. The most valuable thing Ohtani has to sell is his age 29 season. Next most valuable is his age 30 season. He’d be a fool to pass that up when teams will assume his hitting will remain unaffected, and someone will bet he comes back to pitch. —This offseason he could probably get a $300 million deal from the Royals or $400 from the Mets, guaranteed. Who gambles with that? We saw what happened to Soto. No one’s going near $440m again and there are no medical issues involved—now he’s just a 5-WAR DH with a sub-.500 SLG. What’s that going to end up costing him? $150 million. There are huge downsides for Ohtani waiting.
An incentive-based contract would make sense, combining IP and PA over the next few seasons, but stars rarely have to do that (SEE DeGrom, Jacob).
Following the negotiations should be good fun. I’d love to sit in on the insurance negotiations, too.
The $440MM/15 Nats contract was going to cover his arb years. He’s made $17MM and $23MM since then. Next year will be $30MM. So that’s $70MM. Some team will give Soto at least $370MM/12 with opt-outs next offseason as he enters his prime years. If he stays healthy, it was a smart decision turning down that deal which was heavily-backloaded.
The question is how many teams will offer Soto the $370M/12 years after he goes around the league pissing everyone off trying to get $500M and being “insulted when they counter with $300/10 years or $350/12 years. Then he’s going to circle back after everyone tells him he’s not worth $400M, let alone $500M and then teams start saying, that was before you found out the money wasn’t there, now we’re only offering $300/10 years to $330M/13 years like the Harper deal. Plus, you’re assuming Soto stays healthy. A lot of things could start to erode that number more and more.
“Pissing everyone off” is subjective. It’s business and you try to do your best to withhold emotions during high-stakes negotiations. I’m sure there are bunch of organizations who truly loathe Boras but yet keep dealing with him and his clients. I am assuming Soto stays healthy and he has.
BH
Probably small
A longer dreal with an opt-out seems much more likely
He gone.
Really wish the Mets announcer Gary Cohen would stop calling Ohtani the greatest every to play the game when by bWAR Ohtani’s best season doesn’t crack Willie Mays’ best 6 years.
Ohtani’s only got one season that by OPS+ beats the AVERAGE Mays season, and I’d wager Mays’ CF glove most years added more value than Ohtani’s average added value, pitching, of 2.5 bWAR per year.
If Ohtani could pitch like he did in 2022, hit like he did in 2023, AND stay in the lineup, all in the same season, AND do it for a decade-plus, then maybe. Until then, please shut up. You sound like a fool, Gary.
It’s not even all that close. In Ohtani’s age 23-28 seasons, he has a remarkable 34.2 bWAR. In Mays’ 23-28 seasons, he had 53.5 bWAR.
Angels are a hot mess. Should have traded Ohtani at the deadline and start the rebuild of their dismal farm system. Need to trade Trout and try to find a way to unload Rendon. Tank like the Astros and rebuild.
The rules have changed. You cannot tank t like the Astros had done.
Why is it every outsider thinks the Angels farm system is dismal? There are so many rookies on this years roster
hg
Why don’t people who are biased for the Angels think the farm system is good?
Interesting question
Filhok
I have not interest in your theory.
hg
Your lack of curiosity and lack of interest in opposing viewpoints explains a lot
Only yours
If you actually took the time to read. I interact with many people.
hg
I will save you from it
Muted
Now go look what is left for the team to promote next year and the cupboards are empty, even their Top prospects dealt at the deadline were garbage Ky Bush is a thrower with no pitching acumen and Edgar Quero might be a backup catcher with starting potential on a non-competing team.
To put that in perspective, the Mariners have promoted 11 Top 100 prospects in the last 4 years.
Including:
1 GG winner: Evan White
2 ROY winners: Julio Rodriguez and Kyle Lewis
1 All-Star pitcher: George Kirby
The rest of the Top 100 prospects included:
Pitchers:
Logan Gilbert, Matt Brash, Bryce Miller, Bryan Woo, Emerson Hancock
Outfielders:
Jarred Kelenic, Taylor Trammell,
This didn’t include C Cal Raleigh who was matching the performances of other Minor League catchers like Joey Bart that were being ranked Top 20.
The Mariners have also traded away 5 former Top 100 prospects over the same period of time.
Pitchers:
Connor Phillips, Brandon Williamson, and Justin Dunn
Infielders:
Noelvi Marte, Ewin Arroyo
Yet, their farm system still has 3 current Top 100 prospects….
Catcher: Harry Ford
Infielder: Cole Young
Outfielder: Gabriel Gonzalez
In addition to that they have an outfielder (Jonatan Clase) who is one steal away from a 20 HR-80 SB season and was in the Future Stars game in 2023, an infielder (Ryan Bliss) who is six steals shy of a 20 HR-60 SB season, and a team of young prospects (mostly 18-20 years old) that just won 20 of 22 and are 1 win from the California league title, The team is probably 2+ years younger than the league average players. None of those players are the Top 100 prospects listed above….
Lazaro Montes is a big kid (6’5″ & 230 lbs. with above-average speed) from Cuba who was trained by the same guy who worked with Yordan Alvarez and Montes is considered a stronger and more athletic version of Alvarez, The trainer calls him Yordan 2.0, then there is Felnin Celesten who is considered the best SS prospect to be signed internationally since Wander Franco.
By some point next season guys like Lazaro Montes, Colt Emerson, Michael Arroyo, Felnin Celesten, Ryan Bliss, Jonatan Clase, Tyler Locklear, Tai Peete, Jonny Farmelo, Jeter Martinez, and Teddy McGraw could all be fighting to make the Top 100 list along with the other three Mariners listed. That’s 11 more potential Top prospects and they still have guys like OF Zach DeLoach with an .870 OPS in AAA at 24 that won’t even sniff the Top prospect lists, but are still future MLB players.
There probably aren’t 10 players in the Angels whole farm system that’ll be worth 5 WAR for their career, let alone even make it to the majors for a full season. This is all a long way of say that not only does a farm system need to produce players now, which Neto and Schanuel are decent guys, but they need to keep producing interesting talent like a conveyor belt to fuel trades, and future rosters.
The Angels literally have nothing left of value and all they promoted was two decent position players (Neto & Schanuel), one bullpen arm (Bachman) and traded one decent catching prospect (Quero) and some garbage arms. The Angels were bottom 5 before the season and have already promoted their only 1st round draft picks still in their minor leagues. There’s really nothing to hope on for at least a couple seasons and they need help now. Caden Dana might be your only pitcher with starter upside and MLB potential, but right now he looks like he’ll probably end up a reliever unless he adds control and a third pitch.
The Angels hit a couple HRs yesterday. Did ANYONE NOTICE, the look on Ohtanis’ face when the donned the Japanese helmet?
It’s not a given he continues with the Angels
As a long time Angels fan, more than 55 years of heart break, it is time the clear the roster. The majority of Angel fans will not like this but if they are able to unload Trout, likely not possible, but by the time they are able to contend his contract will be an anchor similar to Pujols.
I believe the soonest they will be contenders will be 2027. Rendon’s contract will be off the books , our current youth movement seems to be moving in the right direction , and a player or two from a Trout trade may seal the deal, plus we would have payroll space for the final pieces.
Trout will not be performing at $35,000,000 scale. The window has closed. Time to move on.
I’d bet on a Trout trade with the Phillies in the offseason that brings him back to his New Jersey adjacent roots and let’s him finish his career alongside his buddy Bryce Harper playing for his boyhood team.
The trade would look something like this….
Phillies Get:
OF Mike Trout + $50M (leaving the Phillies on the hook for 7 x $30M/yr)
Angels Get:
SP Taijuan Walker
OF Justin Crawford
SP Christian McGowan
RP Orion Kerkering
OF Nick Castellanos
OF Simon Muzziotti
The prize being Crawford as a potential leadoff hitter and centerfielder. The reality is the Phillies that makes sense and they should get more than $210M in merchandise sales for Trout jerseys and advertising money having a 1-4 of Trea Turner, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, and J.T. Realmuto.
Is he still the MVP?
bs
Yes
Ya. Hands down.