An Opening Day payroll of just under $249MM and some aggressive acquisitions of star players meant that the Padres were fully expecting a championship in 2023, but San Diego has instead posted only a 77-79 record, and the season’s final week begins with the Padres still in mathematical contention for a wild card slot by only the faintest of margins. It has been an unusual season in many ways at Petco Park, as such analytical numbers as the Padres’ +91 run differential (the 10th best in baseball), their 7-22 record in one-run games, and unfathomable 0-12 mark in extra-innings games all suggest that the Padres might simply be one of the unluckiest clubs in recent memory.
However, the organization doesn’t seem to be writing off 2023 to just misfortune, as Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune reports that the Padres are planning a different strategy for next season. This includes “player commitments of around $200MM,” as Acee writes that the payroll cut is “in part because they are out of compliance with MLB regulations regarding their debt service ratio.”
Less spending isn’t necessarily a huge surprise, as the Friars have a lot of money coming off the books anyway in terms of pending free agents and several contractual options and may or may not be exercised. However, what might count as eye-opening is the fact that president of baseball operations A.J. Preller might not necessarily be back, as “no decisions have been made regarding who will be running or helping to run the Padres’ baseball operations department beyond this season.”
Preller has been running the Padres’ front office since August 2014, a tenure that has consisted of an initial spending splurge for immediate success that didn’t pan out, followed by a rebuilding period, and then San Diego’s current state of sky-high spending. The results have been mixed at best, as the Friars have posted winning records in only two of the last eight seasons and also might not reach the .500 mark this year. The Padres’ two winning seasons under Preller (2020 and 2022) resulted in trips to the playoffs, with San Diego winning a series in the expanded 2020 bracket before falling to the Cardinals in the NLDS. Last year’s playoff run saw the Padres eliminate both the Mets and the arch-rival Dodgers before eventually falling to the Phillies in the NLCS — San Diego’s first trip to baseball’s final four since 1998.
The inconsistency on the field could well be related to what’s happening behind the scenes. Last week, The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Dennis Lin published a fascinating look at the dysfunctional elements of the Padres organization, with plenty of criticism directed towards Preller. As Rosenthal and Lin wrote, Preller’s “default setting of simply trying to outwork the competition, however, has not always sat well with managers, players, coaches and other team officials….Many also criticize him for poor communication and a lack of feel.”
This style of management (or micromanagement, in his critics’ view) might have resulted in the revolving door of managers and coaches during Preller’s tenure, and there is currently “a major disconnect” between Prelller and current Padres manager Bob Melvin. This isn’t the only time that internal discord has been a public problem in San Diego, as the club’s collapse in the second half of the 2021 was largely attributed to a rift between the players and then-manager Jayce Tingler.
With such issues surfacing for a second time in three seasons, it could be that ownership has decided that a larger culture change if required, even if that means firing Preller with three years still remaining on his current contract. Despite the Padres’ struggles this year, there had been more rumblings over Melvin being fired than Preller, especially after team chairman Peter Seidler gave Preller a full endorsement back in July.
However, Acee notes that “the path the team travels in many matters is currently be being charted by more people than usual, including members of Seidler Equity Partners,” as Seidler himself “remains involved but not nearly as intimately, as he recovers from a medical issue.” It could be that the other members of the partnership group are less enamored with Preller than Seidler is, or it could be that Seidler (who is the largest single equity holder in the team) has decided himself that a change is necessary since the Padres simply never got things turned around this year.
The Padres’ payroll has exploded since Seidler took control of the club in 2020, and the chairman has been pretty forthright about his stance that increased spending will translate into consistent winning. As such, a winning team and the subsequent higher national profile will lead to higher revenues — attendance, merchandise, TV ratings, etc. — that will help offset said spending.
How sustainable this tactic is over the long term has been a looming question in San Diego for the last two years, and the debt service issue Acee referenced could indicate that the Padres perhaps saw 2022-23 as their true all-in years before having to inevitably scale things back to some extent in 2024. Falling so drastically in an “all in” year could be why Preller is now facing more scrutiny from upper management, and Acee also writes that missing out on the postseason cost the franchise at least an extra $10MM in playoff revenue.
Whomever is running the front office will have plenty of decisions to make, especially in regards to how to address this upcoming payroll cut. Roster Resource projects that the Padres have just under $128.5MM on the books for 2024, though that doesn’t include the arbitration-eligible players — most notably Juan Soto, who made $23MM this year and will earn another hefty raise in his final arb year before free agency in the 2024-25 offseason. Whether or not to trade Soto this winter, keep him for 2024 and let him walk in free agency, or try and retain Soto by adding another major long-term extension to the Padres’ ledger are the primary choices facing the team in regards to the star outfielder.
Trent Grisham and Tim Hill are two other arb-eligible players with far lower price tags than Soto, though Acee wonders if either could be non-tendered as the Friars look to cut costs. Acee also notes that “it is virtually certain that” pending free agents Josh Hader and Blake Snell won’t be retained, and the Padres face other questions in regards to retaining either Nick Martinez and/or Michael Wacha on two-year, $32MM extensions. Seth Lugo is likely also headed for the open market rather than exercise his $7.5MM player option for 2024.
Despite all of these portents of change, there doesn’t appear to be any shift in San Diego’s overall direction, or their desire to quickly return to contention in 2024. None of the core group of Manny Machado, Fernando Tatis Jr., Xander Bogaerts, Yu Darvish, Ha-Seong Kim, Joe Musgrove, and others appear to be in danger of being traded, as their larger contracts should all be able to comfortably fit within the framework of a $200MM payroll.
However, while San Diego has plenty of roster needs to address, the payroll reduction could mean that the Padres won’t be nearly as aggressive in pursuing top-level free agents as they have in recent years. Trading Soto would be one obvious way of unloading salary while still bringing back some (less expensive) win-now help for 2024, and the Padres might still be busy on the trade front rather than looking to splurge on the open market. With all that awaits the Padres in what might be another newsworthy offseason, Preller’s fate might need to be decided relatively soon, so that a possible new PBO/GM can get moving quickly on winter plans.
Lefty_Orioles_Fan
There will be a Go Fund me page to help defray the costs, as well as a rummage sale, and a silent raffle
deweybelongsinthehall
Add in a commercial showing friars in need…please join the $19 a month club…
Lefty_Orioles_Fan
Hahaha just like Shriners Hospital
For Love of the Game
“Keep baseball in San Diego…for the children.”
-AJ Preller at the Padres’ telethon
Fever Pitch Guy
Love – I’m a huge Xander fan and even I say Preller way overpaid him.
Plus I still haven’t forgotten Preller trading injured players while hiding their medicals.
Captain-Judge99
Let’s not lose our heads now! Mr. Ringworm is going nowhere!
Pads Fans
There is a reason that the Padres President Mike Dee was fired and Preller was given all of his baseball operations responsibilities and that was because Mike Dee was responsible for the policy that all player treatments that were not prescribed by the medical staff, like the ibuprofen Pomeranz took, was left off medical reports. That started before Preller was the GM.
Deleted Userr
@Fever Pitch Guy Oh, you mean like the time the Red Sox traded the Padres an injured Anderson Espinoza while hiding his medicals? And the Marlins traded the Padres an injured Chris Paddack and Carter Capps while hiding their medicals?
Fever Pitch Guy
Harambe – Your memory seems to be foggy. Espinoza was part of the Pomeranz trade. The Red Sox revealed Espinoza’s medicals, Preller didn’t reveal Pomeranz’s. That’s why Preller was suspended and Dombrowski was not.
Fever Pitch Guy
Pads Fan – If true then the question is, did Dee order Preller to continue the policy? If not then Preller doesn’t get absolved.
Deleted Userr
How do you know Dombrowski revealed Espinoza’s complete medicals???? He needed TJ almost immediately after coming over and then needed it again. Sounds fishy to me.
Roll
@thelegendary
Im willing to believe the Dombrowski more than Preller as i dont remember another team having a player returned after they played for another team like Colin Rea after it was found out he was being treated for weeks on his arm and was never disclosed to the marlins.
Also that same year Preller was suspended, ESPN reported, “Apparently, the Padres were very lax in their documentation, as they reportedly had fewer than 10 entries on medical treatment for their players at the All-Star break this summer. The average number of entries is around 60.”
those sounds very fishy to me
Deleted Userr
It sounds more fishy to me that Chris Paddack needed TJ after just 2 starts in the Padres’ minor league system despite being “completely healthy” when he was traded and they also gave the Padres a second TJ pitcher in Carter Capps.
Roll
whats most fishy is preller making the statement that he knew he was concealing data and disregard mlb rules.
“I want to emphasize that there was no malicious intent on the part of me, or anyone on my staff, to conceal information or disregard MLB’s recommended guidelines.”
Deleted Userr
Red Sox and Marlins concealed data.
JoeBrady
thelegendaryharambe
How do you know Dombrowski revealed Espinoza’s complete medicals????
================================
1-When you posted :”Red Sox traded the Padres an injured Anderson Espinoza while hiding his medicals?”, you supplied no proof, and no one asked for any. But when someone says that the RS did supply complete medicals, you ask for proof. Is that not a double-standard?
2-The evidence is prima facie. Preller got suspended and DD did not.
Deleted Userr
Espinoza got injured and Pomeranz didn’t. There’s your evidence.
Fever Pitch Guy
Joe – Excellent post!
And I might add, Dombrowski was given the option to modify or cancel that Pomeranz trade and he chose not to do so. I think that’s Dave showing some class because Espinoza got hurt.
Deleted Userr
He chose not to do so because he already knew he got away with fudging Espinoza’s medicals.
nosake
I think probably all teams hide medicals and gloss over deficits. Listen to the inflated stats and marvels attributed by the commentators. My reaction whenever I hear them fawning is “what’s wrong with that player?” No disrespect to Don & Mud intended. I think overselling must be in their contract.
websoulsurfer
The more important evidence is that Padres President Mike Dee got fired on Oct 12th while Preller got a promotion and took over the entire baseball operations for the Padres when he returned from his suspension on October 19th.
At the time it was reported that the system of not reporting non-medical treatments like over the counter medicines and issues that did not require the input of the medical staff was instituted shorty after Dee became team president and a year before Preller was hired.
Pads Fans
Yes. He did. That was a big part of why Dee was fired and Preller basically got his job and responsibilities. Preller was a trooper and took the suspension and the Padres ownership got rid of the real problem, Mike Dee.
SDHotDawg
Still trying to use Mike Dee as a defense of Preller? Who do you blame for Preller’s suspension with the Rangers? Who do you blame for Preller getting the Padres fined for illegal international workouts? Preller knew better, and you know it.
Pads Fans
Figured out who you are. Good to know.
Pads Fans
Ryan, The truth has always bothered you.
Deleted Userr
Interesting. Web and Pads Fans both accusing people of being “Ryan” on this thread. Coincidence?
SDHotDawg
@thelegendary…
Not a coincidence. Apparently “they” don’t remember that Ryan was actually very pro-Preller.
Michael Chaney
For just the price of a cup of coffee a day, you too can play a role in keeping baseball relevant in San Diego.
AJ Preller thanks you for your contributions and as our way of saying thanks, the Padres will send you a personalized certificate indicating which player was given an 11 year contract with your money.
stymeedone
(ask for more!)
miltpappas
dewey, you just gave me Sally Struthers vibes. I picture her saying that for the price of a cup of coffee, you can help defray the costs of keeping their core of players on the team. Won’t you please give? Then they show a photo of 9-year old Xander Bogaerts, looking scruffy in his Little League uniform. Really gets you right here (points to stomach)
deweybelongsinthehall
Lol.
Deadguy
Cocaine!
Lefty_Orioles_Fan
I don’t get it?
semut
Look downtown
Sunday Lasagna
The story came too soon, still time on the clock for the Cubs lose out, the Marlins and Reds to falter and the Padres win out to get the last wild card…anything can happen.
Ya'll a bunch of salty crybabies
Lol!
differentbears
Yeah, that’s not happening.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Also heard there’s a Pancake breakfast at St. Alfanzo’s Catholic Church on Riverside. Just don’t steal the margarine.
Comet
Preller had the unmitigated audacity to trade for anyone named Nanook.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
That’s awesome!! I’ve been trying to use that phrase ‘unmitigated audacity’ in a normal conversation, even have it written down on my nightstand to remind myself (yes, I’m weird) …excellente!
semut
Wasn’t that the dogs name in the old Lost Boys movie?
Pads Fans
Or widdle on the Bingo Cards in lieu of the latrine.
PoisonedPens
I want to win the bidding on one of AJ Preller’s time clock cards.
chicken strip
Matt Kemp is available
Al Hirschen
Mets will be all over Soto
jvent
The Mets need a hitter but they have a lot of OF’s already, plus I’d rather give Ohtani the $$ than Soto.. Ohtani is a better hitter, plus he’ll be able to pitch again 2025. Plus they should sign 2 other ex Padres ( Snell and Hader).
Ya'll a bunch of salty crybabies
Lol!
Dodger Dog
Ohtani has a choice in his destination, Soto does not.
sergefunction
Three pluses don’t make a right.
easymoney
Your suggestions follows the San Diego plan spend big money and go no where.
BaseballisLife
Their owner said that they were in negotiations for an extension with Soto. Do you know who was one of the reporters that wrote about that? Acee.
Missippi_has_3Ks
Mets and Soto make perfect sense. Both are completely delusional
BaseballisLife
Nearly as delusional as the guy who thinks .230 = .250 and 7.9 is twice 5.6.
Missippi_has_3Ks
Lmao. Bro 237 hits out of 1000 is virtually the same as 250/1000. I feel you tho when your teams in last place you’ll take every point you can take.
Dad
No then .275 would be the same as .237 and then .300 is .250 and it’s just not. It may be a couple hits a week but it adds up quickly!
Dad
The Hozmer deal never made sense to anyone else but The Padres and Hozmer
Missippi_has_3Ks
Bro I said I said 13 hits isn’t much of a difference. Dada taking my argument and stretching it. 50 hits is 4 x more than my argument, obviously .300 and .250 is a huge difference
Blue Baron
@Dad: The Hosmer deal never made sense either.
bullred
I agree. When I think of bloated contracts I think of the Yankees and the Mets. Mets can sign him to a 14 year $600 mil contract and that would be a bargain. $42.85 mil a year steal.
LLGiants64
Or maybe they learned some high-priced lessons this year.
BaseballisLife
Or maybe Acee is wrong as he has been consistently since the newspaper he works for was sold.
Missippi_has_3Ks
When should I be concerned about this rash?
Captain-Judge99
Phillies will be all over Soto
Samuel
For one year?
They need to sign Nola this year and Wheeler next. And they already have a large payroll. So they’re supposed to trade ca couple of controlled players under affordable salaries for a rental?
BrianStrowman9
More importantly is where Soto even fits? You have 3 corner outfielders for 2 spots + DH role already. Soto is obviously much better than Schwarbs or Castellanos—but you make that move and you need to offload one of them. I find it hard to believe that they want to keep Harper at 1B for the long term. They won’t be in on the Soto market.
♪
With any luck, the Phillies are done with Nola or get him to stay for much less than they offered during the off season, before he ended those discussions.
I’m guessing that he doesn’t especially want to remain with the Phillies.
Captain-Judge99
@Samuel- I expect who ever trades for Juan Soto will be given a window for a extension lst. Why trade your top prospects without that being done? It’s possible that some teams out there wouldn’t mind just having one year of Soto, then obviously they wouldn’t have to give up so much. Mr. Ringworm stays, and Mr. Soto likely will be traded most likely.
Samuel
Captain-Judge99;
An exclusive extension window time for Soto?
LOL
His agent is Scott Boras.
When is the last time Boras did that with a star player? Boras will give no quarter on Soto next contract. The Phillies would get the same price that they’d have to beat out other teams to pay in free agency next year.
Steve E.
Nola has been average at best since the 2022 All-Star break. Being honest, he might be the most over-rated arm in MLB these days.
You can look it up. He’s give up four-plus runs in 21 of his last 48 starts. No bueno, hermanos.
Still in talks
Yeah exactly. Boras will be taking soto to the market. Captain judge Judy clearly confused.
Anthony maresca
Boras is his agent but Soto ultimately will call the shots and if he prefers to play for a certain team then he will instruct Boras to make it happen. Stop the nonsense that Boras controls his clients as thats not accurate.
CleaverGreene
Yes, they will own the market for poor fielding corner outfielders.
Samuel
CleaverGreene;
This is not rotisserie baseball, you need to throw out the depth chart, and you need to follow how teams use players.
1. The Phillies coaches have worked with Castellanos and he’s turned into a solid ML RF. You watch any games? At time the man makes some terrific plays.
2. When Schwarber starts in LF, if the team is ahead in the 5th-6th inning by a few runs they take Schwarber out of the game, move Marsh from CF to LF, and put Rojas into CF.
If you get your head out of the sand and forget the narrative that no longer applies, you’ll find that like the bullpen that Dombrowski and his coaches fixed, the Phillies OF is one of the best defensive OF in MLB.
–
As for moving Harper back to RF next year – I have my doubts. I’ve wanted him there for 2 years now. He’s improving at 1B and is surely better at it than Rhys Hoskins was. And with the money Scott Boras will want for Hoskins in 2024, I doubt the Phillies sign him.
Steve E.
Cleaver is correct. Soto is shockingly bad defensively. It’s farcical that he was nominated for a Gold Glove last year.
shanefalco50
Sad in a way but I think the two gray beards of the Phillies, Nola and Hoskins, will be playing elsewhere next year. I think Phils management makes them curtesy offers to appease the fans but the offers will be declined. Nola can be replaced in the FA market or from the minors. Rhys has already been replaced by Harper and Bohm. The outfield is set as long as the trio of Marsh, Rojas, and Pache can contribute modestly to the offense. Why would they need to trade for/pay/give up prospects for a semi-cancerous prima donna like Soto? And they don’t need Ohtani either. Get more pitching to go along with a defense that is getting better and the power and speed they already have.
JoeBrady
Unless the Padres are undergoing a rebuild, which is almost impossible, Soto won’t be traded.
nosake
I used to give the Phillies more credit. Then they offered a lengthy contract to “Mr. September” Trea Turner. Hopefully they’ve learned their lesson and won’t go after Soto.
BigRedMachine
I hope the Mariners will be as well!
rct
Mets haven’t been willing to trade away any top prospects the last couple of years (ie, the 2022 and 2023 seasons; the idiotic PCA trade was 2021 under a different FO). Add in that Stearns will be calling the shots and I don’t see how Soto ends up with the Mets. If he were a FA, maybe, but they’re not trading anything major to pick up one year of Soto. If they’re that enamored with him they’ll just wait a year and give him an enormous contract.
Also: Mets need to spend on pitching, not hitting, because they have very little at any level of the organization.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Soto getting traded to the Giants.
Dodger Dog
Giants, Mets, Cubs, Mariners, Yankees all make sense.
parquer
For who? Giants’ farm is not exactly crushing it and they haven’t had seen a prospect have success in the majors for a while now.
websoulsurfer
Giants have no prospects they can move for Soto.
The Natural
Preller has put together a squad of superstar head cases and you can see the results. Just one man’s opinion, but Soto, Tatis, Machado and Snell are guys I see as problematic. Kim and Xander are rock solid.
Steve E.
Snell? Why?
JoeBrady
Several reasons.
1-As good as he’s been this year, he is historically not this good. He has an ERA+ of 104 in his previous four seasons.
2-His peripherals indicate a fair amount of luck. He has an LOB% of 86.7%, and a BABIP of .256. Those are unlikely to be repeated.
3-He leads the league in walks. That seldom works out well.
nosake
Snell needs to be propped up and those most willing to do it have been Don & Mud. Baby-sitting must become tedious.
websoulsurfer
Pretty sure the Padres see that as well and won’t be in the bidding to re-sign him for the Rodon level contract he is almost certain to receive. Padres fans love Snellzilla, but I doubt he returns.
I think it’s more likely that the Padres spend that money on 25-year-old Yamamoto than on a soon to be 31-year-old Snell.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox want Yamamoto too. Who’s going to hand over the best contract, because it’s all going to come down to $$$$. I can see that contract getting bid into the stratosphere.
websoulsurfer
6 teams including the Mets, Padres, and Red Sox have been rumored to be in on Yamamoto. The Mets and Padres were 2 of the 3 that sent their POBO/GM to see him play earlier this season in Japan.
I have not read that the Yankees were one of the teams that is considered to be seriously in the running but with their money it would not surprise me if they jumped in or even won the bidding.
Most writers have speculated around 8/200 including the posting fee. That would be a new record for a NPB player by a large margin.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Yeah Cashman was sitting behind home plate watching Yamamoto throw his no-hitter a week or two ago. There are a few PBO’s licking their chops, envisioning him at the top of their rotation. Being a Mariners guy, I’m kind of glad we don’t need pitching and so will be watching the proceedings from the sidelines munching popcorn.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Just to add, I hope the Padres can land Yamomoto , their rotation will benefit most from a guy like him and in case he is lights out I would rather have him in the other league to minimize having to face him. (P.s. I was hoping for a Padres/Mariners World Series this year, alas we will have to wait one more year!)
benhen77
Preller has to be out at this point. Ownership gave him a blank check and he couldn’t put together a winner. Time for some ideas other than signing former Rangers.
misterb71
When you’ve been given hundreds of millions to burn through and the results are what they are I cannot see how Preller survives. There isn’t an argument you can make that Preller made all the right moves and the team just let him down. It’s been a decade — move on and make repairs to the team culture because it seems that’s where the issues that need to be addressed are.
HalosHeavenJJ
Hundreds of millions and some highly rated prospects.
filihok
MB
There isn’t an argument you can make “that Preller made all the right moves and the team just let him down.”
The argument is that the Padres have a top 10 run differential and are 6th in both position player and pitcher fWAR.
This is a good, maybe very good team, that bad luck has caused to have a very mediocre record.
mlb fan
And so in your mind the Dodgers have just been “lucky” to win the N.L West 10 of the last 11 years?
filihok
mlbf
Uhh…no. How on earth did you draw that conclusion based on what I said?
stymeedone
Well, guess its bad luck for Preller. He bought a bunch of all-stars, and assumed they would become a team. Didn’t work.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Folihok
Cubs and Twins have better run differentials than Padres.
Teams are not lucky or not, you make your own “luck”.
You do not pay Bogaerts 300 million when you needed a 1B not a SS. You do not trade Trea Turner for Will Myers. You do not pay a fortune for Hosmer.
Number one, let Hader go and place him with Suarez. Barlow has Hader-hair but he becomes the start-up man.
Number two let Snell go solely due to money.
Number three, cut Grisham.
filihok
MVMVP
You said some words there.
Made some assertions.
Backed up absolutely none of it – making them all meaningless.
filihok
They were in the NLCS last year and are one of the top teams statistically this year
They are a team. And a pretty good one.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Filihok
They are “one of the tattoo artists in the city”
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Filihok
Padres are an 80 win team that with better luck might have been an 85 win team on the cusp of the 3rd wildcard slot.
I believe Tatis will show greatness over the next half dozen years. Machado will be very good but declining. Bogey will be good but overpaid. Robert Suarez will be solid. Campusano will be elite or bust(ed).
I like the Diamondbacks collection of young talent and the Dodgers farm system. I see no reason why Padres can’t be in the mix next year but I see no greatness or dynasty flowing from their high priced roster
filihok
MBMVP
“Padres are an 80 win team that with better luck might have been an 85 win team on the cusp of the 3rd wildcard slot.”
More words and assertions with nothing to back them up
It’s pretty boring reading
Longtimecoming
Fil
Other than the actual standings, what more do you need to understand that the Padres are an 80 win team and that with a little more luck (see record in extra innings and 1 run games) they could be an 85 win team which is per the standings, on the cusp of the 3rd WC slot.
Give us some examples of what you need other than the obvious.
filihok
LTC
I already did
Their position players rank 6th in fWAR
Their pitchers rank 6th in fWAR
That’s, at worst, a top 6 team.
Kershaw's Lesser Known Right Arm
Go Twins!
Bozzmania
Obvious you having been watching them and subscribe to how to lie with statistics. The ‘23 Padres are a bad team with occasional score run ups. Can’t win a close game to save their lives.
Pads Fans
Of course there is luck in the game. If you don’t understand why, you should not be commenting at all.
You have never been able to answer who was better than Cronenworth in 2022 than the Padres should have picked up to play 1B. That is because the answer is NO ONE. Also Bogaerts was better than Kim in 2021-2022. That is why the Padres signed him The Padres didn’t pay Bogaerts $300 million.
Hosmer was a bad signing, but he paved the way for Machado, Darvish, Snell, Musgrove, Kim and others that were good to great contracts.
Trea Turner had not played a professional game when he was traded. Myers was a proven producer in the majors. Of course you make that trade. YOU seem to think that hindsight is an argument for why the trade shouldn’t have been made back then. That is stupid. No one knew what Turner would become. Myers had been a higher rated prospect than Turner was at the time of the trade.
Grisham is one of the best defensive CF in baseball. It would be stupid to cut him without players to both fill the OF positions and provide depth. Move Tatis to CF, sign Lee to play OF, and move Grisham to the 4th OF position where he belongs unless someone steps up in sping training and shows they can hit for both average and power and play plus defense in CF. . Every team needs a 4th OF and Grisham is still better overall than anyone in the Padres system today other than Merrill that could be that 4th OF. There is no one on the FA market that can take his place either. Although the Padres may give Azocar a shot at the position in spring training. Arbitration salaries are not 100% guaranteed and the Padres could still save a big chunk of Grisham;’s 2024 salary if they cut him before the end of camp.
Pads Fans
With better luck the Padres might have been an 88 win team and in the running for the #1 WC slot.
Bogaerts is making $25 million per year. That means this season he provided $15+ million in surplus value. If you are betting he will be only a 4.4 WAR player next season, I am afraid you will lose that bet. Even if he is that is another $15+ million in surplus value. That means he has not and will not be overpaid for a long time.
After his surgery, I expect Machado will return to being the player he was in 2021-2022. A 6 WAR player for at least a couple years.
Pretty much everyone expected Suarez to take Hader’s place in 2024 and few expected the Padres to be dumb enough to pay Hader the $100+ million he will be asking for in FA. No big surprise.
The Diamondbacks were lucky. Their pitching, hitting and defense were more indicative of a 76 win team to this point. There is no reason to believe that they will improve much on that in 2024 unless they open their pocketbook.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Hosmer didn’t pave the way for anyone.
Pads Fans
Wrong. Both Fowler and Seidler have said he did. Maybe you should pay more attention to the guys that ran the Padres than your own misguided opinion.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Where did they say that? And even if they did, it makes sense that they would try to spin doctor a signing they know was horseshxt. Here’s some facts for you.
The Padres were the highest bidder for Machado, outbidding the next best by a full $50m plus an opt-out. They also were the only team that offered the $300m guarantee that Dan Lozano said was not negotiable.
Darvish and Musgrove signed their extensions after Hosmer was traded. So we already know he wasn’t a factor for them.
Snell never signed any contract with the Padres. His extension was signed with the Rays two years before he was traded to San Diego. So we also know Hosmer wasn’t a factor for him.
I know Padres fans have to tell themselves these things to cope with a terrible, horrible, no-good very bad signing, but they simply aren’t true.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Also… Even if Manny wanted more money to sign with the Padres if Hosmer wasn’t there (which I do not for a moment believe), they still would have been better off not signing Hosmer and then just giving Manny what he wanted.
Longtimecoming
Fil – I agree that their stats show that they SHOULD – I have been a Padre fan for 35 years – but you are aligniring the obvious – the record – the actual record – shows that they are what they are. MLB won’t let them in the playoffs for what they should be.
The guy literally said they were ann80 win team – hopefully at this point – and that if they had just won 5 more game – key word IF – they would be on cusp of WC.
How do you go back at him and say he has to support that to be valid when reality in the standings proves his comment?
Again, I agree with and have said it myself on this site – 0-12 in extras and their under 2 record is ridiculous for a +90 team but, it is what it is when you look at the standings and that really is what counts.
All I’m saying is don’t call out a guy that says a truth based on reality. We Padre fans have to live with what was played on the field.
SportsFan0000
That is where the stats heads get it wrong.
There is a lot more to wining baseball teams than relying primarily
on statistical analysis.
(It should only be one of many factors, and not the primary decision-making factor)
Roguesaw2
I wonder how much of it was “no one knew what Turner would become,” (I mean he was a 1st round pick and MLBpipeline had him as the Friars #3 prospect, there was definitely pedigree there) and how much of it was Wil Myers crapped out. He wasn’t a proven quantity when they traded for him. 700ish plate appearances isn’t much of a sample. He was 23,24 and they were hoping he’d live up to his own prospect pedigree. They got a couple decent years out of him and he crapped out. They rolled the dice he was the better bet and lost.
filihok
BM
The statistic that is “lying” is W-L record.
All statistics are the answer to a specific question.
And when one uses a statistic to answer a question offer than the one or was intended to answer, it’s easy to be fooled if you lack understanding or aren’t paying attention.
W-L doesn’t tell us how good a team is. People shouldn’t use it for that. Though, way too many people do. It only tells us how many times they won or lost
No stat actually directly measures how good a team, or player, is. They all can only tell us how a team, or player, performed over a given time frame.
There’s is, of course, a correlation between performing well and being good. Good teams, and players, more often perform well than poor ones. But not always. Kyle Davies can have a better ERA, for example, than Garret Cole over some time frame, but that doesn’t mean that he’s better.
Same can happen with W-L record. Or WAR. Or any other stat.
So, my bad for being a bit lazy. Having a better WAR does not mean a team, or player, is better. It does mean that they performed better in the time frame.
The Padres have, by WAR (which measures nearly everything, but not everything, that happens on the field) preferred better than nearly every other team this year.
The reason that hasn’t translated into a better W-L record is mostly sequencing. A home run followed by 3 walks has the same value as 3 walks followed by a home run, both by a player and a team, but doesn’t necessarily lead to the same number of runs.
People who watch baseball and don’t just look at stats (remember W-L record is a stat) know this. But they seem to forget it when discussing baseball because they become over reliant on one particular statistic. Namely, W-L record
Don’t fall prey to this careless mistake
filihok
LTC
W-L record is not more reality than WAR.
I just posted a long reply to someone else and I don’t have time to post it again. Look for it in the new comments if you’re interested.
filihok
SF00000
“That is where the stats heads get it wrong.”
Agreed. People are way too reliant on W-L record. They treat it like it is gospel. They need to put down their devices with ESPN and MLB dot com on them and watch a game.
The Padres do everything that winning teams do. They just having been winning
filihok
It’s exactly this
Easy to make all the right moves when you do them from the future.
JoeBrady
More words and assertions with nothing to back them up
========================
Manny gave you his outlook for four key players. You won’t be getting a dissertation on the internet.
Longtimecoming
Fil – when w-l is replaced by some other stat for determining who makes the playoffs then you can become relevant.
Until then, keep banging your drum.
That said, I recognize the phrase “better than their record”. The problem here is that YOU don’t seem to be capable of recognizing/ accepting they the record is what matters!
Phree4u
0-12 in extra inning games tells me the manager is gong to get fired.
If they went even 4-8 in those games they are probably playoff bound.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
They weren’t far off on the Padres being an 85 or so win team with better luck.
Based on mlbs x w-l projections data suggests they should have been around 88-69
Arizona has 74 losses. So do the Cubs.
mlb.com/standings/wild-card
filihok
JB
A sad state of affairs that people are so intellectually bereft that the simple act of reasoned discussion is compared to a “dissertation”
filihok
LTC
Are you lying? Or are you confused?
Where have I ever said that the record isn’t what matters? Or suggested that any other stat should decide who makes the playoffs?
I’ll give you a chance to answer that, then I’ll likely mute you since you seem to be more interested in an Internet fight than discussion
The Natural
But 77 wins as of this morning is a factual assertion and by definition makes them a mediocre team and a whole that is less than the sum of it’s parts.
Longtimecoming
Uh you did:
1. People rely too much on W-L;
2. When you told Manny that you wouldn’t listen to him because he wouldn’t back up his comment (based on the current actual W-L) by “facts”.
I replied that the reality is the standings say what they say and he shouldn’t have to give any more to back up his comments and you went on and on about why people shouldn’t rely so much on WL (your words above) but should look at all the analytics to see that the Padres are a top 6 or top 10 team blah blah blah.
I wasn’t inviting a fight I was asking point blank why you came after Manny for relying on the current standings as the basis for his calling the Padres an 80 win team that would be on the cusp of the last WC if they had won 5 more games.
You have started and continued the internet fight.
That answer your question?
filihok
TN
77 wins is, indeed, a factual assertion.
As is being 6th in fWAR for both pitchers and hitters. As is their current run differential.
A “mediocre team” is not a factual assertion. That’s a subjective opinion. As is the sum of the parts being less than the whole.
The Natural
You are what your record says you are. Dream away all you Iike with fWAR.
RWH 2
Fangraphs has the Padres tied for 13th in WAR at 1.3 with Mets and Red Sox. Rays are behind them at 1.2. So is it bad luck, not good enough players or WAR is not a good statistic?
Steve E.
Well, he might have paved the road they use when finally running Preller out of town.
Steve E.
Gotta say, using fWAR to herald the Padres is about as accurate as the federal government’s inflation index, which does not include food or energy (gas, electricity) costs in its numbers.
filihok
TN
You’re not what your record says you are. Oversimplify so as not to use any reasoning skills all you like and he a slave to W-L
If you’re not convinced by me, you see why I’m not convinced by you.
filihok
RWH
Those numbers that you cited don’t make any sense.
All those teams certainly have more than 1 WAR
filihok
SE
You didn’t have to say that since what you said doesn’t make any sense
JoeBrady
filihok
the simple act of reasoned discussion is compared to a “dissertation”
=================================
He gave you his reasons:
“I believe Tatis will show greatness over the next half dozen years. Machado will be very good but declining. Bogey will be good but overpaid. Robert Suarez will be solid. Campusano will be elite or bust(ed).”
I noticed that you dismissed his argument as “More words and assertions with nothing to back them up It’s pretty boring reading” but didn’t bother to supply any analysis of your own.
JoeBrady
The Fed has several inflation indices. Gas and food are left out on some of them because they have too much variance.
filihok
That’s…uh… not analysis
It’s mere words and assertions backed up with nothing.
I simply quoting basic information that can be easily looked up.
But, here
fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=0%2Cts
fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=0%2Cts…
And if you are confused about WAR here
library.fangraphs.com/war/war-position-players/
library.fangraphs.com/war/calculating-war-pitchers…
filihok
JB
And how do you find that relevant to the current discussion?
Still in talks
There is more then bad luck going on. They can’t win close games. They can’t win in extras. The team lacks the ability to grind out wins.
filihok
Sit
You don’t know that
You are drawing conclusions that do not follow logically given the information that you have.
filihok
BM
Obvious you believe the lies that statistics tell you (W-L record is a statistic). The ‘23 Padres are a good team with bad luck. They have been especially unlucky in close games
As you discount my point, I as easily discount yours
Still in talks
Hahaha. I do know that can’t win extra innings games since they have not won one this year.
If you want to make the simple more complicated go ahead.
Still in talks
Who cares. Are they making the playoffs?
Still in talks
Exactly. Wins is stat that matters when it comes to making the playoffs. Anyone can throw a stat out there to make their point. But in the end wins is what determines if you play past the regular season.
Will the Padres have enough wins? Lol
filihok
Sit
No, you don’t
You only know that they haven’t.
That’s different from not being able to.
filihok
Sit
“wins is what determines if you play past the regular season.”
Correct
“Will the Padres have enough wins? ”
Almost certainly not.
filihok
Sit
“Who cares. ”
About what?
About how good the Padres actually are, and about how good they are likely to be nexts season? Lots of people.
“Are they making the playoffs?”
In 2023? Almost certainly not
Still in talks
“About how good the Padres actually are, and about how good they are likely to be nexts season? Lots of people.”
You can’t prove that. Just an assumption.
filihok
Sit
what an absolute bore you are
muted
Still in talks
Lol. You are so sensitive. You think you know everything. You are pathetic and sad.
nosake
Agree on everything except Grisham. He has heart and hustle like Kim.
JoeBrady
filihok
fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=0%2Cts
fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=0%2Cts…
And if you are confused about WAR here
=========================
I’m not sure why you would think I am confused about what WAR is. Unless that was an ill-conceived gratuitous insult.
But there are plenty of stats out there. For example, the SDP are:
11th in OPS
7th in OPSa
That probably dovetails perfectly into their #10 Py W/L.
websoulsurfer
Other than Bogaerts and Tatis, all of the stars were on the team that went to the NLCS last season. Adding 4.4 WAR at SS and 5.6 WAR in RF did not make the team worse.
websoulsurfer
The Cubs have the same run differential as the Padres. 0.6 runs per game.
The Padres have had the worst luck in baseball – baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB-standings.shtml…::12
websoulsurfer
88-69 baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB-standings.shtml
filihok
LTC
Uh. No.
Yes. I said those things
No. I did not say that anything other than W-L record should be used in determining who goes to the playoffs. That idiot idea is a product solely of your mind
If you follow along in the thread, which, because of how this site threads discussions, is somewhat difficult, you’ll see that I have been discussing whether or not Preller constructed a good team and whether or not the factors other than the construction of the team contributed to their poor record
And, 100%, one needs to look at things beyond W-L to have that discussion.
Yes. The Padres’ actual record is worse than we be expected based on the actual runs scored and allowed and based on base runs
No. I do not think anything other tham actual W-L record should be used to determine playoffs.
Clear?
filihok
JB
“I’m not sure why you would think I am confused about what WAR is.”
1) You were complaining that I didn’t back up my assertions, so I was providing support for my assertions.
2) Nothing leads me to believe that you are particularly knowledgeable about baseball or baseball statistics. As evidenced by, using the most recent example, using OPS instead of, at minimum, OPS+
3) A bit of a gratuitous insult. Seeing as how everything that I’ve provided is readily available public information, yet you called me out for not supporting my opinion, while apparently thinking that MBMVP saying that he thinks so and so will be overpaid, and so and so will decline supported his position.
Clear?
filihok
Not quite 100
but 95?
The Padres didn’t technically add all of those WAR since those players replaced other players (Tatis replacing Profar’s 3.1 WAR and Bogaerts replacing Hosmer’s replacement level performance, for example.
But, you’re overall point is correct. Thinking that the team got worse because of those players is absurd. Some players (Cronenworth, for example) performed worse in 2023 than 2022 and then the issues with sequencing are much more likely to be to blame.
websoulsurfer
Add 7-22 in one run games and its almost certain the manager is on the chopping block and not the GM who put a team together that was near the top in both offensive (wRC+. OPS+, and WAR) and pitching (ERA and WAR) production.
That type of player production means that it was a combination of luck and in game managerial decisions that made the difference. That does not bode well for Melvin and his coaching staff.
websoulsurfer
Fangraphs has the Padres 6th in WAR for pitching fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&st… and 6th in WAR for batting fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&st…
.
websoulsurfer
Joe,
Manny gave no facts. He gave vague opinions. What is greatness? What is very good? What is overpaid? What is sold? What is elite or bust?
He literally didn’t back up any of his assertions with facts or even definitions of his vague opinions. He never does. That is the entire problem with his comments.
Here are some facts. Tatis put up a 5.6 WAR this season which is 3rd best among RF. Machado put up a 2.8 WAR this season, his worst season by WAR since 2014 and also the first season since that year that he spent 10 plus games on the IL. Bogaerts put up a 4.4 WAR which has a value of about $40 million, so he provided about $15 million in surplus value based on his $25 million salary. Suarez had a 1.80 ERA prior to his injury, a 7.15 ERA after his return and up to his suspension, and a 1.93 ERA since returning. Campusano is hitting .319 with a .874 OPS and 134 OPS+ in 174 PA.
Those are facts. Anything else is opinion.
My opinion is that Tatis will come back next year after a full offseason of working out with his father and Acuna and put up an MVP level season if he stays healthy. A 7 plus WAR season.
My opinion is that Machado will return from surgery and put up a season that is abut halfway between 2021 and 2022. About a 6 WAR season as long as he stays healthy.
My opinion is that Bogaerts will rebound and put up a season closer to his 5.5 average of the last 2 seasons and even if he only repeats his 2023 production, he will still provide more value than his salary costs the team.
My opinion is that most assumed that Suarez would take over as closer after Hader left in FA and that he will put up a season much closer to the 2.25 ERA we saw in 2022 than what we saw this year as long as he stays healthy. A 2.25 would have placed him in the top 16 relievers in the game this year.
My opinion is that Campsuano has numbers (BABip BB%, and HH%) that indicate he may have a slight regression but can still produce top 5 offensively for a catcher. He just has to stay heathy, something he did not do in 2023.
THAT is analysis worth reading and it’s much more specific. not vague.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
The White Sox did not bid more for Machado than the Padres in 2019. $300m plus an opt out >>>> $250m with no opt out. You are the only one who is still trying to dispute that. Even the White Sox beat writers have admitted by now that the Padres’ offer was better.
Machado took the Padres’ offer over the White Sox’s offer because he wanted that last $50m guaranteed. He didn’t want to have to earn it. In his mind he had already earned it with his play during his arb years.
You don’t know if the other dudes would have been signed/traded for if it weren’t for the Myers and Hosmer signings. And even then, signing Hosmer didn’t improve their actual ABILITY to pay those other guys. If anything it made it worse because they had dead money tied up in Hosmer. If they don’t sign Hosmer and then don’t offer Manny $300m guaranteed and he signs elsewhere that doesn’t mean they COUDN’T sign Manny. It means they CHOSE not to. There’s a difference. If you layer on favorable assumptions to your position it will obviously make it look better. Just like how if I assume the Padres would have offered Manny $350m instead of just $300m if they didn’t sign Hosmer because they have more money available, that makes my position look better.
websoulsurfer
Not winning close games and going 0-12 in extra innings is indicative of two things. Bad luck and bad managerial in-game decisions. Take your pick.
websoulsurfer
Can’t and didn’t are two different things. Don’t conflate them.
websoulsurfer
He may be pathetic and sad, but mostly he is correct. What is truly sad is how many people value their opinion and emotional responses over facts.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
You conflated them.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
I asked Manny Machado at Fanfest if he still would have signed with the Padres if they hadn’t signed Eric Hosmer first but still offered him the same contract and he said yes. So are you saying Manny is a liar?
websoulsurfer
Joe, It did seem like an insult and you do seem to know what WAR means. The Padres are 6th in wRC+ and 8th in OPS+, and 27th in BABip.. That does support his argument about where their stats fall in MLB and that much of their win/loss is bad luck.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Key words: “Could have.” The guaranteed portion (the part elite free agents actually care about) was $250m. Padres’ offer was for $300m guaranteed on the day of signing. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If he suffers a career ending injury on the first day of spring training 2019 he still gets $300m. The article you linked to even includes Ken Rosenthal’s tweet saying that Manny “as believed all along, wanted the $300m guarantee.”
When you opened your comment with “Wrong, as usual” were you in fact referring to yourself?
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
There are times when I think you’re trolling (or unsure about something and trying to get it answered via Cunningham’s Law) but people who are doing those things typically don’t block or mute people. They like the negative attention. They thrive on it.
filihok
FRj
I might call YOU a liar
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Oh no! The poor wittle boy websoulsurfer muted me because he can’t handle being proven wrong.
Because I know he has other accounts and will see this when he uses those, one last thing I forgot to mention was that even if the White Sox had offered Manny a fully guaranteed $350m (which they didn’t), Manny still would have made less than he did from the Padres contract because of the opt out and subsequent use of the opt out to bully Padres ownership into extending him. The White Sox offer had no such opt out provision and Jerry Reinsdorf straight up said he doesn’t do opt outs.
websoulsurfer
23k people renewed their Padres season tickets. That is a pretty good testimony that they all believe the Padres will be good next season. They invested their money in watching NEXT season’s team.
Right now, the Padres website is touting the benefits of being on the waitlist because you can’t buy season tickets anymore. “Being on the waitlist comes with benefits of its own. Including discounts on regular season single-game tickets and Petco Park Tours, presale access to Padres playoff tickets and more.”
So he made a really good assumption.
websoulsurfer
You have consistently panned the Padres even when they were in the playoffs and are not a Padres fan so it’s highly unlikely you were at Fanfest. Fanfest had waiting lines of more than 3 hours to get a Machado auto, so as person that is not a Padres fan or a Machado fan, why would you wait in line that long? Even if you were the 1st person in line, you would have had to wait hours to just get into Fanfest and then more hours to see Machado. Again, as a person who is not a Padres fan or a Machado fan, why would you wait that long in line.
Fowler, Seidler and Preller made their statements publicly, while you are claiming it was a private conversation. Who would you believe if I made that same claim? The owners and GM’s public statements or the non-fan’s claim of a private conversation.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
You are no stranger to bringing up private conversations you supposedly had to back up your claims. And who the heck are you to tell me what team I am or am not a fan of?
I’m just telling you what I heard. Take it or leave it.
websoulsurfer
I will leave it. I think you are lying. Your name and the fact that I have read you make anti-Padres posts many times is why my take that you are not a Padres fan is a valid and logical one.
I was actually at Fanfest so I know how long the wait was to get in the gate and then how long the lines were for autographs if you actually got in the gate. I also know that Machado was whisked away to speak at Fanfest, so would not have had a chance before or after his signing to talk to him if you were even there.
I’m just telling you what I know and what can be verified. Take it or leave it.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
That’s fine. I know what I heard.
Pads Fans
Machado got an offer from the White Sox that with incentives was worth $50 million more than what the Padres offered. That offer was also for more in AAV. $31.25 million compared to the $30 million the Padres signed him for. twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/10979462071697940…
Executive vice president Ken Williams said he was “very surprised” Machado spurned the Sox offer. “There are a few other words you could put on that,” he said. “I’m still in a bit of disbelief. (Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf) really, really stepped up. If the acceptance of the offer that I’m seeing is true, then actually our offer had the opportunity for Manny to surpass that. But in the end we went after the guy and we didn’t get him.
chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-spt-white-s…
That first contract with Machado was incredibly good for the Padres. He had 17.6 WAR or about $150 million in value and got paid just $83 million. Before you try to say but, but but he was getting paid $30 million per year, 2020 was not a full year and he was paid just $12 million in 2019. An AMAZING deal for the Padres. he could play 5 seasons just like this season and he would still have provided the Padres with the value they will have paid for him. That you claim to be a Padres fan and don’t realize that says more about you than anything you can post here could say.
Nothing else you said is even worth discussing because its so far off base.
Pads Fans
Hosmer signed in 2018. Machado in 2019. In his presser announcing the signing, Machado mentioned that part of the reason he chose the Padres was what he described as the best farm system in baseball and the great talent at the major league level. He specifically mentioned Hosmer.
I am sure you can find it on Youtube. It was on February 22nd, 2019 .
Pads Fans
Every play can be quantified. Its value describe in the data, the numbers.
The bigger the analytics department a team has and the better able they are to convey that information to players in an immediately usable format, the more games they win.
Its not something that can be argued against. Over the past 10 years its engraved in stone. The more analytics your team brought to your players the more games your team has won.
The teams with the largest analytics usage are the Dodgers, Yankees, Guardians, Astros, Rays, and Cardinals. Those are the 6 teams with the most wins over the last 10 seasons.
The teams with the smallest analytics staffs, the Marlins, White Sox, Rockies, Reds, and Tigers.. Those are the 5 teams with the worst win totals over that period.
The Dodgers have made the largest analytics investment in baseball and they have won 936 games in the regular season over the last 10 seasons. That includes the 60 game 2020 regular season. The most wins of any team.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Already read that several times before. Padres’ offer also had the *opportunity* for Manny to surpass $300m thanks to the opt-out. And he did. So basically the White Sox’s offer had the lower floor ($250m vs. $300m) and the lower ceiling (no opt-out).
Former White Sox executive VP had this to say about going to a $300m guarantee: “Evidentially that’s what it took and San Diego stepped up to that level. That level wasn’t feasible to us because we still have to project putting together a total winning roster and keeping the young players that will ultimately earn into greater dollars themselves.”
soxon35th.com/the-mourning-after-life-without-mann…
You made the claim about Machado saying he signed because of Hosmer so if such a video exists it’s your job to find it.
I never said anything about Machado being or not being worth his contract.
Pads Fans
Wil Myers was a very highly rated prospect. In 2012 he hit 37 home runs across 134 games at AA and AAA. In 2013 he was the #4 overall prospect in baseball prior to the season and was named the rookie of the year even though he wasn’t called up until mid-June. He missed half the 2014 season with injuries and then was traded to the Padres that offseason.
At the time of the trade Turner had played only in low A and A ball and was ranked in the 60s overall as a prospect.
In my opinion, Myers crapped out for 2 main reasons. Injuries and the Padres played him at 5 different positions over his first two seasons.
Pads Fans
How do you think you proved him wrong? He provided receipts. Facts. You provided your opinion. WTF is wrong with you?
Pads Fans
I was one of those 23 thousand that renewed their season tickets. I wonder if the Padres will increase the number of people they allow to buy season tickets since there are still so many on the waiting list or continue to limit them to a little over half of the total seating capacity.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Because the link he gave directly refutes his claim.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
No player would ever say “I signed because of the opt-out” because that is basically implying they already have one foot out the door but make no mistake. It’s a factor.
Pads Fans
He is obviously not the only one disputing it since I have and Rosenthal, among many others, wrote about it at the time. Kenny Williams even was quoted talking about it.
The White Sox offered a deal worth $350 million including easy to hit incentives. They offered a higher AAV also.
Machado in his press conference noted 3 things as his reasoning for signing with the Padres. NONE of those were about the total money. They were the players like Hosmer on the major league roster, the Padres having the best farm system in baseball, and the chance to win a World Series.
We know for certain that two of the owners of the Padres and Preller have all said that they began the process of building the team by signing Myers to an extension, Hosmer as the 1B and leader of the tea, and then Machado. According to them if they had not been able to do those things, they would not have made the trades and signings they did subsequently.
Its pathetic that you think that they are all lying and you know more than they do about their motivation and process for building the team.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
“The White Sox offered a deal worth $350 million including easy to hit incentives. They offered a higher AAV also.”
If those incentives were easy to hit they would have just guaranteed the full $350m from the start. They were trying to give themselves an “out.” But the thing about Manny Machado is he is a baller and when you are trying to sign a baller like Manny Machado you don’t get to give yourself an “out.” Elite free agents care more about the total guarantee than the AAV. Ken Rosenthal even said in web’s article that Manny wanted the $300m guarantee “as believed all along.”
Most players sign because of money. Very rarely do they outright say it in their press conference.
As for “According to them if they had not been able to do those things, they would not have made the trades and signings they did subsequently.” That wouldn’t mean they *couldn’t* make those trades/signings. It would mean they *chose* not to. There’s a difference.
Finally, even in a scenario where Manny wants more money if Hosmer isn’t already in place, it still would have been cheaper to not sign Hosmer and then pay Manny “whatever it takes.”
It’s late. Good talk.
filihok
FRJ
Definitely leaving it
1) you’re just a random commenter – thus your statement holds no particular weight
2) Machado has no compelling reason to be forthcoming in that situation.
Not saying that you (or Manny) are lying, but there’s a reason that this evidence wouldn’t be permissible in a court of law.
filihok
SFooo
It should definitely be the primary factor
filihok
RS
It’s exactly this
filihok
LFG
“LFGSD6195 hours ago
No player would ever say “I signed because of the opt-out” because that is basically implying they already have one foot out the door”
It’s not implying that at all.
That’s like saying that no team would ever say that they signed a player because of the team options because that implies that they aren’t committed to the player.
Yes, optouts and tram options are factors. Largely financial ones
As always, sad to see how many people have been brainwashed to default to supporting capital over labor. Explains a lot about why workers in the US are in such [poor] conditions, though.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
@Pads Fans You forgot (or deliberately left out) the opt-out. That increases the ceiling of the Padres’ offer. He ended up getting $458m from the Padres over 14 years. The White Sox would not have extended his contract. So even if he did manage to vest both options and all the incentives he would have to get $108m over the next 4 years to come out ahead. And he would have been 36 at that point. It’s possible if he stays healthy with the way player salaries are ballooning but far from guaranteed.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
“That’s like saying that no team would ever say that they signed a player because of the team options because that implies that they aren’t committed to the player.”
I mean, that statement is kinda true, no?
websoulsurfer
The opt-out doesn’t equal $50 million in value to the player. If he gets hurt its worth exactly $0. You are trying to say that the option is worth $10 million per season and that is just not correct. It does have value, no one would debate that, but nowhere near the $50 million difference in the White Sox and Padres offers. According to players that have commented on why they asked for an opt out in long term contracts, the most common answer is that its biggest value was allowing them to leave if a team is not competing for a playoff spot by the time it comes up. How do you put a dollar figure on that?
We know from Lozano that 5 teams were bidding on Machado before the Padres jumped in at the last minute and that they didn’t even hold a meeting with any team that was not offering $250 million guaranteed.
Machado said why he signed with the Padres. We don’t have to guess. Just listen to his words. Solid base of major league players including Hosmer, best farm system in baseball, a chance to be a veteran voice in the clubhouse even though he was only 26 years old, and the plan the team had shown him to take the Padres to the WS.
Machado is not Nostradamus. He didn’t base his decision on whether or not he would sign another contract. He based it on exactly what he said he wanted in the team he would sign with and money was not the largest factor. We know from what his agent has said that before the Padres got involved, he had 5 teams that had all bid $250 million guaranteed or more. He was going to be wealthy regardless of where he signed.
The White Sox would not have HAD to extend his contract as it was longer. Machado would have been a White Sox through his age 37 season.
PadsFans may not have gotten everything 100% correct. He did get the facts right far more than you have.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
The opt out made Manny an extra $170m so it definitely had value. And those vesting options and incentives the White Sox were offering weren’t worth $100m either because they weren’t guaranteed. If he got injured or sucked in 2026 he would have gotten 0 of that. You saying those options and incentives were guaranteed to vest is just as disingenuous as saying that Manny knew he was going to be able to leverage the opt-out into a $350m extension.
Historically, most players who have had opt outs and used them have stayed with their original team, either via a new contract or leveraging the opt out into an extension. I’ve never seen a player opt out to get off a bad team.
It is very rare for a player to cone out and say “I signed because of money,” regardless of whether or not it is a factor.
The White Sox wouldn’t have extended Machado’s contract because they wouldn’t have had to.
Your comment is the first I have heard of any teams offering him $250m+ besides the Padres and White Sox. And I have looked. I know the Yankees and Phillies were in on him but a number wasn’t publicly available.
Just watched his press conference and the word “Hosmer” is never said once. He does mention wanting to help Tatis and Urias be the best they can be though.
Pads Fans
Manny’s opt out would have had no value unless he played MVP level baseball in 2022. If he put up 2.6 WAR like his first season in SD he would have had to play out his deal because no one would have signed him if he did opt out.
There is no value inherent in an opt out unless the player stays healthy and plays at a high level. That he would be able to opt out and get even equal value to the deal he was on was NOT GUARANTEED.
While the White Sox incentives were not guaranteed, they were easy. Kenny Williams said that they expected Machado would hit all of them based on his previous play. All Machado would have had to do was play in 800 games and he would have made $300 million. He has already played in 657 in 5 seasons since signing with the Padres. He could play 30 games a season over the rest of his original deal and hit those escalators. The MVP votes he has received as a Padre would have added $10 million to that and again, he has only played 5 seasons. The 2 All Star appearances he has made with the Padres would have added $5 million. Again, we are only 5 years into the contract.
If that was the first you heard of it, you didn’t read the articles that were linked.
Its a 40 minute press conference. Try watching the whole thing, not just the 6 minute highlights on Bally Sports San Diego.
Of the 23 players that have exercised an opt out, 1 has stayed with the team he signed the original deal with.
MrBrightside
Filihack
Oh, absolutely! It’s crystal clear that the Padres are world-beaters, but the universe just decided to play a cruel joke on them. I mean, who cares about those pesky little things called wins and losses when you’ve got a top 10 run differential, right?
Clearly, the Padres are the unsung heroes of baseball, masters of the almost-win. Forget those other teams with their pedestrian records; the Padres have transcended the need for mere victories. They’ve achieved the remarkable feat of looking great on paper while underperforming on the field. It’s an art form, really.
And let’s not forget their 6th place position player and pitcher fWAR rankings. Who needs actual wins when you can have a high fWAR ranking? It’s like a participation trophy for adults.
So, kudos to the Padres for defying the conventional wisdom that winning games is the ultimate goal in baseball. They’ve shown us that mediocrity is just a state of mind, and bad luck is their ticket to eternal baseball glory.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
Who was that directed at Mr Brightside?
MacGromit
@misterb71
“Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy.”
How do you expect the Friars to suddenly wise up? They’ll fire Melvin instead and continue to nuttiness. He doesn’t deserve it.
CleaverGreene
Preller should stick with re-building farm systems and not spending on over-priced free agents. That Bogaerts signing was absurd. .
filihok
CG
More reputable people than yourself disagree
“ZiPS projects this deal as “worth” $261 million, so $280 million isn’t a wildly high number for Bogaerts’ services. ”
blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-will-miss-bogaerts…
But go ahead and present you evidence to support your position.
JoeBrady
In the same article, their earlier projection was 2.9 and 2.3 for 2024 & 2025. In their more current projection, it is 4.7 & 4.3. I get that things change, but that could be a concern.
And in their original projection, they predicted straight declines for every year. Now they predict no overall decline for the next two years. That’s a bit inconsistent.
But more importantly. I’d like to see an explanation for the original projection declines of 0.5 & 0.6 for his age 31 & 32 seasons, but now decline at all for age 31 & 32.
But just for fun, I checked out a couple of star middle infielders.
Semien is projected to decline 1.0 in both his age 33 & 34 seasons. Bogaerts decline is projected as 0.5 both years.
Turner is expected to decline 0.9 in his age 31 & 32 seasons. Bogaerts is expected to improve 0.2 and decline 0.2, staying exactly as he is this year.
If one were combine Seager & Semien, their total decline over four seasons aged 31-34 would be 3.8. Bogaerts projection is a decline of 1.0.
Yet one last way to look at this would be to see how many players age like Bogaerts. Bogaerts is projected to have an age 34 fWAR of 3.3. There have only been 2 seasons of a 3.3 or better for a SS since 2000. There have been only 6 seasons where a SS had a WAR of 2.0 or better.
In other words, the numbers were cooked.
filihok
JB
So, because you don’t like (or understand) the results you conclude that the books are cooked
Such a sad way to go though life.
JoeBrady
You could’ve tried to debate the abundance of facts that I supplied, but you defaulted to insults. In my experience, that only happens when they are unable to counter the fact pattern.
But let’s just focus on one line. Why is Bogaerts aging decline so much smaller than Seager & Semien?
filihok
JB
Why would I debate the facts that you supplied? What do you think we are discussing?
“Why is Bogaerts aging decline so much smaller than Seager & Semien?”
I don’t know.
My understanding of ZiPS is that it uses comparable players as part of making the projects. Thus, I’d assume that the players used as comps for Bogaerts declined more slowly than those used for Semien and Seager.
Now, your turn
Which is more likely, that the “numbers were cooked” or that there is something about ZiPS (a somewhat involved mathematical model) that you do not understand? What reason would FG or Szymborski have for cooking the Numbers?
Still in talks
filihok is sad and pathetic. Runs away when you prove her wrong.
Still in talks
filihok is such a sensitive little baby. Sad and pathetic.
websoulsurfer
Bogerts produced 4.4 WAR which is worth $40 million while being paid $25 million. How is that absurd?
websoulsurfer
Joe, it’s the same percentage decline for Bogaerts and Semien. They are starteding at different levels. 4.3 fWAR for Bogaerts and 6.0 fWAR for Semien.
websoulsurfer
Starting. Brain fart or bad typing there. Take your pick. Both are probably right.
websoulsurfer
I do. They started at different WAR numbers. The percentage of decline is the same at the same ages. It just is calculated based on different starting numbers.
SDHotDawg
@fili
“ZiPS projects … “ Really? So a “guess” is the same as a fact in your world? Sorry, but you don’t get to decide who’s reputable.
filihok
SDHD
“So a “guess” is the same as a fact in your world?”
No. What are your talking about?
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
“Of the 23 players that have exercised an opt out, 1 has stayed with the team he signed the original deal with.”
BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! Wrong! Thanks for playing! Stephen Strasburg, Yoenis Cespedes, Carlos Correa and CC Sabathia. And that doesn’t even count the guys who signed extensions before the opt-out date rolled around.
Fernando Ringworm Jr.
Oh. And if the White Sox incentives were so easy they would have just guaranteed them from the get-go. Would have been no reason not to. You don’t get to play leverage games with 26 y/o future HOF free agents.
Big whiffa
don’t forget he also traded away 100 mil+ in prospect value.
And he overpaid tatis another 100 mil
websoulsurfer
Tatis has put up 12.2 WAR while being paid $12.25 million since he signed his extension. He is one of the biggest bargains in baseball. The Padres have already received over $100 million in surplus value. Its year 3 of the deal.
If the 24-year-old Tatis never improves on the 5.6 WAR he has put up this season and only does that 3 or 4 more times, his contract could end up being one of the best long-term deals for a team in MLB history.
To make it a break even for the Padres all Tatis has to do is put up a 2.4 WAR average over the next 11 seasons.
SDHotDawg
If more people understood math, the less they would use WAR as a “stat.”
filihok
ADHD
Go on…
websoulsurfer
If more people understood WAR, the more they would use the stat just like the teams ALL do.
Those guys with the high-level math, physics, and data sciences degrees that the teams employ all utilize WAR. I am going to say they understand math a lot better than you or I do.
My gut instinct is to go with the people that I know are brilliant mathematicians and data scientists over the guy trying to hand out opinions on a baseball thread with no data, never even a single example, to back up his assertions.
SDHotDawg
LOL! Per Dave Cameron, teams DON’T use WAR, because “it serves no purpose as a reliable metric to evaluate talent.” Wow, I haven’t heard that argument used in about 15 years! You’d be surprised how few of those public SABR stats they actually use.
Most internal ML teams’ analytics are proprietary. For a reason. They often write their own software and use their own formulae.
SDHotDawg
BTW, yes teams employ a lot of people from math-driven disciplines in their analytics departments. From what I’ve seen, mostly Econ and straight Math majors.
Who they employ doesn’t mean you know what they do, how they do it, or the tools they use. So, go with your gut instinct, but those folks aren’t telling you or me a damn thing.
filihok
SDHD
First, citation requested
Second, please don’t be dumb enough to assume that means I think you are lying and Cameron didn’t say that.
Third, you’re correct. Teams almost certainly do not use fWAR it bWAR. It does seem likely that they do use the WAR framework in conjunction with projections to project how many runs a player is expected to produce offensively and prevent defensiveky. That seems like useful information to have.
Pads Fans
Ryan, Dave Cameron never said that and you know that. You just made that up. I did a search for what you tried to claim was a quote from him and it doesn’t exist. Why do you think you have to lie?
KingOmar
Best comment. Preller blew it.
websoulsurfer
The Padres gave him a blank check in 2020 and he immediately put together a team that made the playoff and then they returned last season and went all the way to the NLCS. Their struggles this season are on the manager and not the GM. This team should have ben better than the 2022 team.
Soto, Machado, Bogaerts, Tatis, Kim, Musgrove, Cronenworth. None are former Rangers.
briar-patch thatcher
It’s funny thinking about how defiant people were three weeks ago on here that he would be back next year when I insisted he was toaster strudel.
I’m just glad the shift is gone. My blood pressure is back to 115/75.
Yeti
Wait, you think people know or care about something you put in a comment section from 3 weeks ago?
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Cabbage patch thatch
Lots of people like me think Preller deserves so be fired but did not expect it due to their history of madness.
So you are not showing baseball acumen but rather prognosticating at what point ownership owns up
briar-patch thatcher
Love to see the overreaction and bitterness on here about a simple and obvious comment I made. Obviously you all remember it, which is why you’re upset. Hilarious and expected.
Tom the ray fan
Preller sucks
BaseballisLife
The Padres owner said less than a month ago that payroll in 2024 would be the same as 2023.
Acee has been writing click bait and not accurate reflections of what is actually happening since the newspaper was sold. The new owners, Alden Capital, which has been variously called a “vulture hedge fund” and “the grim reaper of American newspapers”
BaseballisLife
Sorry. It was in early August just before his medical procedure. Time flies when you get old.
CrikesAlready
I received my SDUT renewal notice… I cancelled. The Blake Snell “Cy Yung” headline says so much.
Argh!
Big whiffa
Yeah I think they’ll still spend. How do u tear it apart with all those lengthy contracts on the books
Simm
Acee also said the padres weren’t going to spend last offseason. Then they spent a gazzillion more dollars.
Just look at all the players they are tied to already. From yam, lee, Ohtani, bellinger…ext Soto and Kim.
People have been saying the padres can’t spend anymore for like 5 years in a row. Until Seidler says so it stops spending money I’m not buying these articles. I think the payroll will be closer to 300m then 200m by the time all things are done.
websoulsurfer
I believe you are talking about his October 23rd or 24th article in the SDUT after the Padres were eliminated. Just a few days later he talked to Seidler and wrote an article on October 26th about how the Padres would spend without mentioning that he had said that the Padres would likely trade Soto and Darvish, and let Martinez, Suarez and others walk to save money.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #InEpplerIsGone!!!!
Preller is easily a top 3 GM. He always gets the guys that you have a good feeling about. He was not the problem, the team just underperformed simple as that. Career years out of Snell, Wacha, Lugo, Kim, Hader. Got Tatis, Musgrove, Hader and Cronenworth for pretty much nothing. Fleeced the Cubs out of Yu Darvish. Signed Machado (1st contract) to a pretty decent deal. Traded for Juan Soto. If you want to critisize him, I dislike his premature extention for Tatis, and Machados extention was in my opinion, terrible. Bogaerts got overpaid by about 100 mil. Overpaid in resigns for his out of the blue relivers in Martinez and Garcia. Grisham and Austin Nola trades were mediocre. Hosmer signing was bad. The truth is, he hits more than he misses, I’ll take him over Eppler any day of the year
Ya'll a bunch of salty crybabies
Lol!
misterb71
He had a decade to make it happen and it hasn’t happened. Time to move on and change the chemistry of the organization.
wallabeechamp
The Pobres did take him over Eppler. They were the finalists for the GM position back then. A lot of people thought Eppler would get it because he’s a ‘San Diego Guy’. I guess it just goes to show that this was always the Pobres fate. Not the team San Diego wants, but the team they deserve.
Edward John Smiths
Please take him.
Cam
Preller hits more than he misses? What a shame the team he built can’t say the same.
websoulsurfer
Is there a team that hits over .500?
Grim_Reaper
Overpaid massively for FAs…Boagerts, Hosmer, Machado. Overpaid massively in trades by giving away prospects. All could have, and should have, been done smoother and cheaper by developing and retaining home grown talent, San Diego is not a first tier spend market like LA or NY and ownership is fed up wih the mistakes and rightfully so.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #InEpplerIsGone!!!!
@Grim_Reaper how many of these prospects Preller gave up in the past 6 years have actuallly amounted to anything though? Luis Urias? Mackenzie Gore? CJ Abrams? Luchessi? Estury Ruiz? Maybe you can make a case for Ty France. Unless I’m missing someone big, none of these guys really move the needle. I’ll take Soto, Snell, Hader, Tatis, Musgrove, Cronenworth, and Darvish over all those guys combined
JoeBrady
Abrams doesn’t move the needle? He has a 3.5 bWAR in his first full season and has 5 full seasons left. The dude will be an AS.
Samuel
LFGMets (Metsin7) #FireBillyInEppler;
1. Again, this isn’t rotisserie baseball. Players don’t do the same no matter what team/organization they play for. The Padres cannot develop any of their young players to producer for crap at the ML level. So under Preller they batch up a bunch of youngsters and get one name player – and if he isn’t a pitcher that Ruben Niebla can work with he’s guaranteed to regress.
2. Teams have gotten nice years out of youngsters the Padres trade them depending on how their coaching staffs work with the players. The Nationals got multiple players for Soto from the Padres. In today’s MLB with injuries, platoons, etc. a team needs at least 35 good players. All the players you question above are easily one of the 35 players for their teams, and with all the bylaws in place to stop franchises from buying championships, those players affordable salaries are gold.
Preller is both lazy and dumb in his position as a PoBO. Other FO’s have been feeding off of him since he stupidly traded Trea Turner because he saw a brighter toy. Preller inherited Turner. and of all the players Preller has had in his tenure, Turner is easily the best all around player – which Preller gave away for next to nothing. Preller has literally been a farm system for other MLB team’s whose FO’s wait patiently in line to trade with him.
ElysianPark
“Maybe” Ty France? Just “maybe”? He was an All-Star in 2022.
Longtimecoming
Correct but check out his steady decline from 21 to 22 to 23. I think at one point this year he had been dropped to 8th in order and started getting a lot more off days.
He was one of my favorite prospects as a Padre fan but he has not aged well so far.
As I’ve said before, he is still young and can go right back up.
Abrams is by far the best prospect traded away but so many, like all prospect trades, have years to pan out before you can call it.
Grim_Reaper
Totally agree Samuel. Is there anyone out there at all who would rather have Bogaerts at 11/$280m instead of CJ Abrams?
websoulsurfer
France is a replacement level player this season.
websoulsurfer
Abrams wasn’t traded for Bogaerts. He was traded for Soto and Bell, two guys with a 150+ OPS+ at the time of the trade. 2 of the 8 best hitters in baseball at the time. One had nothing to do with the other.
Try to keep your eye on the ball.
Simm
His fwar isn’t as good. His hitting is still below league avg.
websoulsurfer
Grim, At least you got one point right. Hosmer was a massive overpay for the production they received.
Pads Fans
I was a big Hosmer proponent the 1st couple of season of his deal with the Padres. Mainly because he did something that doesn’t show up in the defensive metrics, but is invaluable to a young tea. He caught everything thrown in his direction. Those 2 seasons he was in the top 2 in catching errant throws in the dirt or offline. He made the rest of the infield better even when he was not hitting well.
Then COVID hit and while his offense improved to above average, his defense went into the toilet. Over 3 seasons he went from the best at snagging errant throws to the worst.
websoulsurfer
Always hated that Hosmer deal. Always. Regardless of his defense. Yes, he could scoop the ball with the best, but he was not a great hitter and the rest of his defense was just not good. For that kind of money the Padres deserved a guy that was above average on both sides of the ball.
amk1920
Friedman, AA, DiPoto, Chernoff, Bendix, Elias, Hoyer, Dombrowski, Chris Young, Rizzo all clear Preller by a mile. And thats just off the top of my head.
Dodger Dog
Not completely sold on Chris Young yet, but the rest yeah and probably Farhan too.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #InEpplerIsGone!!!!
@amk1920 I’ll give you Friedman and AA, no doubt they are better than Preller. Bendix is debatable, if you want to put him over Preller than fine. Dombrowski and Preller are essentially even in my mind (even though Browski is not a GM, hes head of Baseball Ops but I guess you could argue its essentially a similar position). Rizzo gave out some of the worst contracts Iv ever seen in Strastburg and Corbin, that keeps him out for me. Ellias has done absolutly nothing other than building a strong farm. Its not hard to draft good players when you finish in last every year (I’ll give him Gunnar, good second round pick up). He fails for me because he didnt go for it at the deadline, Jack Flaherty and Fujinami aren’t needle bending moves, he also had the prospect capital to faciliate a major trade. He takes no risks. Good trade for Yennier Cano, thats about it for me. Chris Young is too new but I’ll give him credit for flipping the Rangers org from awful to above average, again not hard when your team finishes in last every year and you get good prospects for nothing. Chernoff and Dipito are awful, don’t know where you got those names from. Hows Dipito’s big FA deal of Robbie Ray working out? Evan White’s extention has been garbage. Yusei Kikuchi was bad. Adam Frazier deal did nothing for them. I’d rather have any other GM over Dipoto, except Billy Eppler the worst GM I’ve ever seen
SportsFan0000
Isn’t it kind of early to be hitting the bottle?!
Dombrowski and AJ Preller in the same sentence and compared as equals?!
LMFAO!
Dombrowski is a 1st ballot Hall of Fame MLB Executive.
He wins wherever he goes.
Built Expos into top contender who had the best record i
n MLB with Dombrowski’s players a few years after he left for Miami
(The baseball strike kept the Expos from a possible World Series).
Built expansion Marlins into Champions in record time.
Ordered to trade everyone after the parade.
Players Dombrowski acquired in trades and drafts became the core of the Marlins 2nd World Series Title 2 years after he he left for Detroit.
Built a Tigers team languishing in last place for 15 years (that lost 117 games shortly before Dombrowski turned them around).
Dombrowski built Tigers into a contender for 10 years including 2 AL Championships 3 or 4 AL Championship Series, many Division Titles etc.
Won a record # of games with Red Sox, Won multiple Division Titles in short period of time including World Series Championship.
Took Leadership of a a rebuilding Phillies team that fans were calling a “failed rebuild” and had them in the World Series in less than 2 years after he was hired. Has built a much stronger, contending Phillies ballclub with a window of contention that is now :”wide open:”.
Dombrowski is the only MLB Executive to lead 4 Different MLB franchises to the World Series.
AJ Preller cannot even touch that record.
What has AJ Preller ever won?!
JoeBrady
Dombrowski and AJ Preller in the same sentence and compared as equals?!
========================
Same guy. Big spend, trade away prospects. Hope to get lucky.
The only difference is that Preller adds salary with every move. DD adds guys some guys at the deadline that will be gone at the end of the year. And for all his poor extensions, and frequent trades, Preller never runs out of prospects.
Samuel
LOL
Joe;
I cannot believe you or anyone else compares Dombrowski to Preller.
Would have to write a 20 paragraph post.
JoeBrady
Just for fun, take a look at the cost of the FAs that DD has signed over the past two years. He took over a team that already had Harper, Wheeler, Realmuto, Nola, Stott, Suarez, Sanchez, and Bohm, and added $106M in free agents, and has the team up to about 90 wins.
It’s not that impressive.
SportsFan0000
Are you a Red Sox fan?!
Did you read what was posted that directly contradicts your rash generalizations?!
Your statements about Dombrowski and his career are FALSE, MISLEADING, AND IN FACT UNTRUE.
Send me an invite to AJ Preller’s Hall of Fame Inductions ceremony lmfao!
Samuel
Excuse me Joe;
Dave Dombrowski took over a team that had had a failed rebuild. He had 2 starting pitchers, He was missing a SS, CF, LF, and had the worst bullpen in MLB.
Stott, Suarez, Sanchez, and Bohm were all in the organization but were hardly complete ballplayers.
In his words, he had “nothing but money to use” – because teams weren’t interested in his veterans in trade, and he couldn’t trade his prospects for veterans else he would have a team like this years Yankees and Mets by 2022-23 – overpaid over-the-hill veterans with no youngsters and no future.
Yes, he signed free agents. But he’ll let Hoskins leave this year, and very possibly Nola. He’s worked with his major league and minor league coaches to fill out the starting staff, make the Phillies bullpen one of the better ones in MLB, found not one, but 2 quality CF’s, signed a SS and brought Stott along to play 2B (he’s a very good SS as well). The Phillies got to the WS in 2022 after he replaced Joe Girardi as manager on June 3 with bench coach Rob Thompson, saying: “We can’t let this get away from us (i.e. the 2022 season). His Phillies went to the 2022 World Series.
The job of a PoBO is not to build a roster of players with good statistics – it’s to build a team that wins on the field. To do that the PoBO has to involve everyone in the front office, major and minor league coaching staffs, the scouts, the minor league development people, and associated personnel we know nothing about.
Dave Dombrowsli has BUILT A MAJOR LEAGUE ORGANIZATION – one of the best in MLB. All personnel are working together to not just put the best team possible on the field, but to work with them to perform as best as they can.
A.J. Preller has been in San Diego for 9 years, never worked well with a manager, this is the first good pitching coach he’s had, there is no organization that been built – not one Padre FO person or young coach has been recruited by another organization. We already see rumors’ about franchises being interested in the Phillies Sam Fuld to run their organization (Red Sox are rumored to be interested among others). Sam Fuld did not magically become a good FO person. Dombrowski has mentored him as he has others. In fact, I believe he’s trained Fuld to be his successor.
There’s far, far more to all facets of baseball than accepted stats. In fact, I’m so suck of reading “Lets’ look under the hood” and “His BABIP” makes him Lucky or Unlucky” or “His SO9 isn’t impressive” blah blah blah (in another post I’ll tell you a story). You want to play that game and we’re back to “Figures Lie and Liars Figure”.
I’ve read veteran writers of losing teams whose FO’s are now using stats to explain why they’ve consistently made bad decisions, that are bringing back BA and W-L and other basic stats that reflect a players value – good or bad – more then the mish mosh of using a selected 3-4 of 25 stats to make a point.
Kyle Gibson leads the O’s with 187 IP and has a 15-9 record. Don’t tell me about his this or that. He’s been the mainstay of the O’s staff all year. He’s has bad games So?
Dave Dombrowski got his team to the WS in his 2nd year. A good chance they go again in 2023. Their farm system is far better. He goes into the HOF the first year he’s eligible.
AJ Preller will be a glorified scout if he’s hired again – or he can write for The Atlantic or be an expert commentator on ESPN.
SportsFan0000
You must be a Red Sox fan that buys the BS that Red Sox Ownership has spread on Dombrowski.
Phillies owner John Middleton doesn’t understand why Red Sox fired Dave Dombrowski
In the same article, Phillies owner and managing partner John Middleton had no problem throwing some light shade Boston’s way for freeing up Dombrowski:
““I still don’t have any idea why John Henry fired him. I really don’t understand it. But I’m grateful he did. We wouldn’t have Dave Dombrowski and we wouldn’t be in the World Series.’’”
bosoxinjection.com/2022/10/28/phillies-owner-middl…
foppert1
If my research is correct, 145 of that 200 is committed to 6 players. By my crude calculations, thats a lot of warm bodies sharing 55.
Get well soon, Mr Siedler.
BaseballisLife
Padres are at $180 million including all arbitration eligible player raises, all non-arbitration eligible salaries plus Carpenter’s option and Martinez’s option.
I am betting Acee is full of doo doo.
BrianStrowman9
If the Padres won’t fill their obvious holes with something this off-season than this will be an egregious mismanagement of resources. They have multiple untradeable mega deals with guys who’re on their way to the decline years. Can’t trade Machado or Bogaerts. Certainly can’t reset and try to build around them in a couple years either.
BaseballisLife
Which is part of the reason I think Acee is full of dog doo.
foppert1
Pure unsavoury guesswork and speculation. For health reasons, the non Siedler stakeholders were happy to let him do everything he could to get a quick result. Now he is ill to the point of reduced involvement, they are pulling it back. That’s where my mind went anyway.
BaseballisLife
Seidler apparently personally owns 50+% of the team according to Dennis Lin of the Athletic and the San Diego Union Tribune. The other stakeholders would have a say in spending if there had been a cash call, but since the CEO has said they are making money this season, not losing money, there would be no cash call that minority owners would be asked to pay.
Until that happens or Seidler sells a portion of his shares in the partnership, he is the deciding factor in how funds are spent.
stymeedone
MLB gets a say, also. If there is a debt problem, MLB would know. As SDP also lost their TV deal, the replacement may not be as lucrative. Not as much money coming in, means less goes out. Payroll is a percentage of Revenue. Business 101.
Pads Fans
See my post below. There is no debt service problem since they made a profit.
The Padres will be net revenue sharing payers which means they had to have revenue in the top 14 in baseball or more. That is over $410 million.
The Padres are currently seen on every outlet they were seen on when DSG was involved, have increased their market by a factor of more than double in terms of TV households where games can be seen, and according to multiple sources have increased total TV revenue.
They had 3.2 million fans come to the park which combined with more TV revenue means they can spend even more money if needed.
Business 101. A class both you and Acee must have failed,
CleaverGreene
Thank you, mate. Payroll is a percentage of revenue. Fans seem to think rich owners spend their own money on payroll. If they ran business that way they wouldn’t be billionaires.
SportsFan0000
Acee is not just pulling these numbers and ideas out of his hat.
He has sources working in the Padres Front Offices.
He is quoting discussions that have gone on in meetings in those offices.
Padres were not purchased for cash.
Ownership took on a lot of debt buying the team.
Padres spent big on free agents and had too many holes in the team and too much money tied up in 5-6 players. That is why they did not make the playoffs.
Even with increased attendance, 256M is a lot of payroll for a small to mid sized market like San Diego and to have no depth and big holes in your roster/
BaseballisLife
You still have not even tried to refute a single point I made. Are you going to at least try? I don’t think you will
BaseballisLife
Padres CEO said they would make a profit this season. Should we think he knows what he is talking about or sportsfan0000?
SportsFan0000
He only said that assuming they would make a deep playoffs run.
That ship has sailed.
Anyone who talks about the team hurting because it won’t have 10’s of millions in play revenues to fall back on, is not making a profit this year.
They purchased the team for 800M.
They took out bank financing for that purchase.
And, at times, teams refinance and get even more cash from banks to sign more players.
There is no way to know the Padres financial situation without looking at their books.
OR without having sources inside their Front Office and Ownership meetings.
Acee has been known to have those inside sources and to be a source of reliable info from inside the Padres.
And the Padres lite activity at the trade deadline and avoiding adding crucial pieces that could have helped them make the playoffs speaks volumes.
You and other posters have no idea about the Padres balance sheet.
It is very likely that they financed the large purchase of the Padres with bank loans that they are paying which is only one of the many factors you have neglected to mention.
We will see this winter as the Padres decline multiple options on players, do not resign many players and trade some high salaried players like Soto off the roster and out of town.
The Padres don not have the revenues of the Dodgers or even the Angels.
San Diego is a small to medium market baseball city.
websoulsurfer
He won’t BIL. He doesn’t have the bandwidth.
SDHotDawg
@PadsFans…
It’s not a “debt SERVICE” problem, it’s a “debt RATIO” problem per MLB regulations.
You may want to repeat that Business 101 class.
While you’re at, re-read the Acee article. This time, with comprehension.
Pads Fans
Sports0, Greupner made no mention of the playoffs when he said the Padres would not lose money.
The Padres are now one of the teams that pay into the revenue sharing program, not collect from it. To do that they have to be making over $410 million. That is a known. We don’t know the Padres non-baseball operations costs, but we do for the Braves and the Blue Jays and both of those teams were around $130 million. We DO know the Padres payroll. The math is not hard. Simple subtraction. Even you should be able to do that. If no, your browser can.
No one EVER expected the Padres to pick up Wacha’s or Martinez’s option. That you think that is a revelation just shows how little you know about the Padres. Both will have a decision to either take the player option or hit the open market. Neither will get close to what the team option would have paid. Wacha will undoubtedly get more than the player option. but not by much.
If you have paid attention at all to how the Padres operate, you would know its likely both get offers that have similar team and player options to stay.
Soto has already received an extension offer since the first of Acee’s articles came out.
Padres are the only game in town and their revenue is obviously high enough to justify the payroll they have this year and the fact that they drew 3.2 million fans and have sold out season tickets for next season already point to Acee being full of it and them going out and staying the course as Seidler said they would.
Pads Fans
Debt service ratio. Several people have already pointed out what MLB says teams have to maintain a RATIO of Debt Service to Operating Income.
Head on back to class Ryan.
Guess you got mad that I had muted your Harambe account so you made a new one? How many is that for you Ryan? 8? 9? Don’t worry, I will mute this one too after I finish showing you that you are wrong, as usual.
Pads Fans
$188 million if both Carpenter and Martinez opt in as expected.
BaseballisLife
Thanks. Wasn’t thinking about Martinez.
Deleted Userr
Don’t post using your burner account to follow up, bro.
SDHotDawg
LOL! “Ryan” must be his code name for any body that disagrees with him. Even when he’s demonstrably wrong!
What a sad, pathetic creature.
bag o ballz
oh I read it as they were planning to to reduce by 200mm (not to it) and was like how the heck are they going to do that – it would take sending their whole farm system out to get guys to take contracts.
ClevelandSteelEngines
Sox need to get involved for Soto!!! Lord! I’d die if I watch his dance ritual nightly! Send some cheap prospects and Verdugo!
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Nooooo !!!!!
Pitching pitching pitching !!!
Ejemp2006
Here is my dream scenario:
Tatis is sent to the Yankees. His skills and personality would be great in a bigger market. The Yankees send a small slice of Stanton’s contract and a boat load of prospects back to San Diego.
Machado and a prospect get sent to the Mets. No one is more Metty than Machado. Cohen and friends send back 2/5 of Lindor’s contract. Bogaerts moves to third and Lindor takes SS.
Cut the salary and drama down to a manageable level with two simple moves.
Ya'll a bunch of salty crybabies
Lol!
Orbitt
As delusional as Cashman. Hey do you want a job in the Yankees front office?
Sourhaze
How does that help anyone other than the yankees?
Somehow the mets get worse in all of this. What do they get out of swapping lindor for machado?
A decrease in offense and an injured player
Dodger Dog
Stanton, Tatis, & Machado all have full no trades.
YankeesBleacherCreature
He did say it was a dream.
rct
I guess in this dream the Yankees decide to totally decimate their farm system (‘a boat load of prospects’) for one year of Soto.
Ejemp2006
The Yankees could decimate their farm system in a Tatis trade and it wouldn’t hurt them at all. They have enough money to sign Bellinger, Matt Chapman, and Justin Turner so they don’t need prospects to compete next year.
My dream isn’t too far fetched. The Padres have whiffed on an all-in strategy before. And last time, they did a fire sale to reload their farm. It seems they’re trying to do a Miami Marlins Dombrowski style championship but haven’t quite gotten the formula right yet.
JoeBrady
1-The NYY don’t have enough of a farm to land Tatis.
2-Has Preller ever traded for prospects? Poor GM, imho, but he still has twice the prospects that the NYY have.
SportsFan0000
Why would the Padres trade Tatis Jr who is very young and has a salary that averages very low per season?!
Machado won’t be traded. Ditto for Tatis Jr.
Soto very likely will be traded for a boatload of top young players and prospects..
Padres have a top young SS, Jackson Merrill tearing up the minors
and who could be in SD as early as late season ’24.
They also have a 16 year old phenom catcher who is moving up the minors ladder very fast.
Phree4u
16 year old catcher?
Well, he should be ready for his debut by 2029.
Yeah. Build around that and might as well file for the road closure permits immediately for November 2030
Longtimecoming
Phree – the guy totally skipped the complex / Roomie leagues and finished the year at AA and likely starts there in 24 for a full season.
Care to adjust that 2029 prediction? Maybe check out the player being discussed before commenting?
SportsFan0000
He is 17 years old in AA and a “Top 5” prospect in MLB
who scouts say could make the major ;leagues as an 18 year old.
His 1st AB in double A was walk off double off the CF wall.
Experts say he could make is major league debut in ’24 or early ’25
SportsFan0000
milb.com/midland/news/padres-prospect-ethan-salas-…
SportsFan0000
Tatis Jr is not going anywhere
bhambrave
My dream (if Fried won’t sign an extension with the Braves) is that the Braves trade Fried for Soto and Soto signs long-term to play left field for the Braves. The Padres probably have a better chance of signing Fried long-term than Soto.
vtadave
Pretty sure if the Padres are to deal Soto, it would be for a batch of cost-controllable young players/prospects, not for a guy like Fried.
bhambrave
Like I said, it’s my dream.
David White
The Machado contract is untradeable.
Bogaerts can be traded by attaching a prospect like Lesko or Snelling. This clears $25MM.
Trading Bogaerts means Kim can move to SS and Cronenworth back to 2B to recover some of his value at a less demanding offensive position.
Extend your good youthful players – Kim, Soto, Grisham (who hasn’t been good, but at least you have cost-certainty and he’s only 26).
Tender Nola because a backup catcher will cost you the same anyways. Non-tender Tim Hill.
The team has needs at 1B, DH, 4th OF, and SP3.
With these changes, the team will be at $141MM before the AAV increases from Soto / Kim / Grisham extensions.
I’d bring back Garrett Cooper to play 1B as his peripherals are strong, he doesn’t have a career platoon split, familiar with SD, cheap and a plus defender. I’d give him a 2-year deal to reduce the AAV and capitalize on if he bounces back in 2024. 2/10.
Jordan Montgomery to be the SP2 and move Darvish to SP3 where he’s better suited. 5/100.
Mitch Garver to play DH. Open to platoon suggestions here as well. 3/42.
C – Campusano
1B – Cooper
2B – Cronenworth
SS – Kim
3B – Machado
LF – Soto
CF – Grisham
RF – Tatis
DH – Garver
C – Nola
INF – Rosario
INF – Carpenter (open to DFA if Garver if full time DH to provide more flexibility).
OF – FA (preferably OF who can cover all 3 positions with speed. someone like a Raimel Tapia).
SP – Musgrove (low end SP1)
SP – Montgomery (good SP2)
SP – Darvish (low end SP2)
SP – Avila (good SP4)
SP – Martinez/Morejon (should try as starter as long as they are still on the team)
RP – Barlow (closer)
RP – Suarez
RP – Morejon/Martinez
RP – Cosgrove (L)
RP – Espada
RP – Wilson
RP – Jacob
RP – Carlton
abc123baseball
You leave Matthew Lesko out of this!
Pads Fans
Bogaerts provided surplus value on his contract in what was a down season for him. Expect at least a 5 WAR next season, but even if he only repeats 2023 he will still be providing surplus value. He can be traded without adding any prospects to the deal. The Padres would get a nice haul for him if they decided to trade him, which they won’t.
The Padres are not trading Bogaerts to clear room for a player that has one season left on his current deal. Kim will stay at 2B FT and Cronenworth at 1B. Cooper may be retained because of his positional flexibility and play mostly DH and some 1B, but that is only a maybe. At $5.5 million Carpenter is most likely the DH/1B guy.
Machado will be the player we saw in 2021-2022 after the surgery. A 6 WAR season is coming or at least very close to that. He may spend the first few weeks at DH in 2024, but he is the 3B.
Nola is done. He hasn’t hit in a couple years and will cost about the same as Sanchez. Resign Sanchez who has a great rapport with the pitchers and hits for power.
Musgrove is an Ace when healthy. Montgomery is going to cost $20 million AAV and get 5+ years. Go after Yamamoto who is 25 instead and will get a similar AAV. Avila is not a good #4. He is barely a #5 or #6. Waldron has a better shot at the #5/long man slot than Morejon. Morejon is no longer a SP. At this point if the Padres are able to get 60 IP out of him its a win.
Raimel Tapia is no better than Azocar who makes the minimum. No reason to sign him.
SportsFan0000
As the Padres ownership stated, they are done giving away their best young prospects for other teams declining, expensive talent.
Pads Fans
They never said that at all. In fact, Seidler has said that prospects are capital that you can use to acquire proven veteran players.
rct
Braves payroll (with Arb increases) is already around $200 million for next season before factoring in any player/team options. I cannot fathom them adding and signing Soto to a mega deal.
Kenneth Powers
Preller needs to stay where he is.
Sincerely,
Dodgers Fans
BaseballisLife
I kind of doubt that the Dodgers organization wants the guy who put together the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last season to keep building that team.
Ya'll a bunch of salty crybabies
Key words……Last Season
stymeedone
Out of how many seasons that he’s been in charge? Yeah, SDP keeping Preller would bother few Dodger fans.
websoulsurfer
2 of 4 since they started spending for the 2020 season.
differentbears
One single series does not a pattern make. 2022 was the outlier. Everything else is complete and total annihilation by the Dodgers. And now, here we are in 2023, and those same Padres added more and will be watching the postseason from their couches. Again.
On more than one occasion the Dodgers have wrecked the Padres’ season to the point that no other single team was likely more responsible for San Diego missing the postseason. Plus a very convincing three game NLDS sweep on the way to a title in 2020 to boot.
Pretty laughable to think one single NLDS a year so is even on Los Angeles’ radar at this point.
SDHotDawg
Only a Dodger fan thinks 2020 was a real ML season.
ElysianPark
Hey,remember how the other 29 teams refused to play any games in 2020 because it would have been meaningless to win anything?
Yeah, neither do I.
The Padres were very upset to be eliminated in 2020 by the Dodgers. Clearly they would have liked to have won, as did the other teams who played.
Please don’t try to tell me that you would have been unhappy with your team winning in 2020. Nor would your team have given back the trophy if they won……
Sour grapes…..
differentbears
Dodgers World Series Wins: 1955, 1959, 1963, 1965, 1981, 1988, 2020
Padres World Series win(s): 1 game in 1984
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
That is EXACTLY what they want. Anything can happen in a short series. The ball bounced the Padres’ way in the 2022 NLDS. Has no bearing on the future.
Jerry Hairston Jr's Toupee
Yeah, keep building that mediocrity….
SportsFan0000
Preller gutted the Padres farm system with dumb, one sided trades for overpriced, declining veterans with the exception of Soto.
But, the vastly overpaid for Soto and would have been better off
keeping the top young infielders, outfielders and pitchers given up for Soto.
Soto is great, but he can only play one position at a time.
And, he can’t pitch,.
Pads Fans
Padres farm system is already top 10 again. Will be top 5 by start of 2024 season.
ElysianPark
It was more important for Padres and their fans to beat the Big Brother Dodgers than anything else. It always has been. It doesn’t matter what comes after that. That is why they held a huge bash just for winning the NLDS. Who else does that? Who else NEEDS to do that?
The Padres’ record under Preller’s 10 years is pretty woeful. Dodger fans aren’t worried about him at all.
JoeBrady
Two .500+ seasons in the past 13 years.
websoulsurfer
Two playoff seasons since they started spending money in 2020. 50%.
SDHotDawg
You’re completely ignoring all of the money spent before 2020? Just for a Preller narrative?
websoulsurfer
Padres ranked from 19th to 29th in payroll from 2015 to 2019. Overall, they ranked 25th in total payroll for the period. They didn’t spend much money.
You are completely ignoring the facts just for an anti-Preller narrative?
Kershaw's Lesser Known Right Arm
As Clayton Kershaw’s Lesser Known Right Arm, I can attest to this
bhambrave
Preller should probably be Director of Scouting or Director of Minor League Operations. He’s great at building the organization, but can’t seem to build a good MLB team. There’s more to a team than stats.
BaseballisLife
Playoff appearances? 2 in 4 years.
SheaGoodbye
Exactly who is that supposed to impress given their large payroll, the amount of top prospects burned through, and MLB’s expansion of playoff teams?
Macknoche
Number not amount
SportsFan0000
Preller has been there 10 years not 4 years
Deleted Userr
9
vtadave
Interesting. According to Cots, they are already at $209 million for next year, including the money owed to Hosmer ($12 million..haha) plus minimum salaries for guys on the 40-man and player benefits.
This doesn’t include:
Juan Soto, who probably makes $30 million next year in his final year of arbitration
Any money for re-signing or replacing Blake Snell
Re-signing/replacing Josh Hader
Signing Ohtani
Such a shame.
BaseballisLife
That number in Cots includes all options and all arbitration eligible players plus those not arbitration eligible.
Most of those options will not be exercised. The only one that is certain to be is Carpenter.
CNichols
Lugo isn’t going to pick up that player option, and neither are Wacha and Martinez if the team doesn’t pick up their team options. They’ve pitched well enough to beat the player option values.
Nola and Tim Hill are easy non-tenders that will clear an additional $5M+ too.
Old York
Fire sale incoming!
Dustyslambchops23
Honestly – can’t figure out the Padres, talented team, no huge areas of under performance but 0-12 in extras and 7-22 in 1 run games.
Just a wild amount of bad luck goes in to that, they shouldn’t overreact to this year
filihok
Dsc
Exactly.
Sunday Lasagna
The Padres have an OPS of .772 in innings 1-3, remain at .772 in innings 4-6, drop off to .699 in innings 7-9 and in extra innings their OPS is .468.
Nothing to do with luck, they just get tired. Just need to shorten the games to 6 innings and the Pads will be fine.
Pads Fans
Their .699 OPS is higher than league average in innings 7-9.
It has everything to do with luck. Look at their BABip in extra innings. Overall .282 which shows some bad luck. .206 in extra innings which shows incredible bad luck.
Sunday Lasagna
Or it shows very poor contact, failure to barrel the ball, weak grounders and lazy flies, and BABIP comes with a grain of salt…….you are choosing to just ignore the .000 BABNIP. Yeah, let’s just ignore the swings and misses, if we ignore the bad things they just go away.
websoulsurfer
The Padres barrel rate and hard hit % is nearly identical in the 7-9th innings as it is overall. Combine that with BABip and its pretty clear its bad luck. Their swing and miss rate in the 7-9th inning ranked 9th in baseball.. Your knowledge or baseball or lack thereof is what is taken with a grain of salt.
SDHotDawg
If you watched any of the games, you wouldn’t make such statements claiming their failure is all luck. They simply played bad baseball, made bad pitching decisions, and failed to execute. REPEATEDLY.
Over the season, “Luck” doesn’t make a team 0-12 in extra inning games, or give them the worst record in 1-run games since 1935. The statistical probabilities of all that “luck” is miniscule
Phree4u
No. It’s not a cohesive team. The results when it matters most proves it.
They have too many alphas all trying to be the hero instead of playing team baseball.
I would put that squarely on the manager.
Sunday Lasagna
Not really fair to put that on Melvin. Did he have experience with alphas in Oakland? It’s on the GM to hire a manager with the right skill set for the ballplayers. Preller didn’t hire a manager with a history of managing alphas.
websoulsurfer
WTF are you talking about?
Olson. Semien, Chapman, Murphy, Bassitt, Hendriks, Petit, Lowrie, Davis, Treinen. That was just his last 3 seasons in Oakland.
Maybe try laying off the juice.
stymeedone
Talented players not playing as a team.
Dustyslambchops23
Oakland is on pace for 110 losses and is 6-8 in extras.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
A’s players are significantly less talented but younger with more energy
Dustyslambchops23
Dodgers, Astros, Marlins, jays and rangers are all older than padres by average age of the 26 man.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Dusty
Good response
Maybe A’s players compensate in extras for their lesser talent with an adrenaline rush because their wins are so rare
disadvantage
@dusty
“No huge areas of under performance”
Their depth has always been atrocious. That doesn’t necessarily explain away their bad luck, but unless all of their starting players stayed healthy and performed at their peak level, holes showing would’ve been inevitable.
Dustyslambchops23
They have a better run differential than the brewers, jays and Phillies who are all playoff bound.
SportsFan0000
It is not “bad luck”!
It is very poor roster construction by Preller.
They depth guys that they need, he traded away
including rising young Outfielders Hassell III and the other one.
a young SS and many pitchers,(and that was just one of his bad deals).
BaseballisLife
Just finished reading Acee’s article.
The Padres have revenue high enough in 2023 that they will be revenue sharing payers instead of recipients. That means revenue in excess of $410 million.
With a $249 million payroll and total non payroll costs of around $130 million that they will make a profit. That gibes with what their CEO said early in the season about the team not losing money this year. Those numbers were before they drew 3.2 million fans, so it’s likely they have an even higher revenue than projected. We know from Maury Brown and articles in Sports Business Journal that the Padres TV revenue rose after DSG filed for bankruptcy and MLB took over the broadcasting.
That also means they are decidedly not in violation of debt service rules. Acee is full of it.
Kenneth Powers
I’ll take Acee’s view over some rando on the internet.
BaseballisLife
Says the rando guy on the internet who obviously did not read the article, cannot even understand my points, and has little grasp of baseball and none about business.
If there is anything I said that you think you can show is incorrect, please try.
Kenneth Powers
Yes, I’m a rando on the internet. But I don’t try to convince people I’m smarter than a respected long-time beat reporter for an MLB club. As Dirty Harry said, a man’s got to know his limitations.
Deleted Userr
Inb4 BaseballisLife brings one of his burner accounts Pads Fans, outinleftfield or websoulsurfer to “agree” with himself.
Pads Fans
You also did not attempt to counter any of his points, just try to hurl insults. Maybe try to actually use facts and you will get a little respect around here instead of the disdain you always get. As Dirty Harry said, a man’s got to know his limitations.
Deleted Userr
Right on schedule
BaseballisLife
As I said, if you can refute a single thing I said, please try. I don’t think you will even try.
flamingbagofpoop
Or he could just create 4 accounts to agree with himself, right?
You should absolutely know your limitations, you manage to make a fool of yourself more than anyone I’ve seen.
BrianStrowman9
Luxury tax expense baked in here?
If the padres have Floating Rate Debt that cost of borrowing is significantly higher than what it was last year. Plenty of borrowers failing DebT Service coverage ratios right now with identical revenues due to the higher debt service cost. I see it everyday.
Pads Fans
Not in this case. You cannot borrow $115 million, the Padres portion of the construction costs of Petco, on a floating debt rate.
Petco Park was opened in 2004 and the bond Moores took out was for 20 years, so that debt should be paid off this season. That means no debt service.
SportsFan0000
They borrowed another 800M to buy the team.
And, probably refinanced it when interest rates were low
and were given even more cash to sign free agents,
websoulsurfer
You can borrow that much on a floating debt rate, but you would have to be really stupid to do so. The consequences of an upswing could be devastating. Somehow I don’t think Moores and Lucchino were that stupid. As it is, the loan was scheduled to be paid in full this season.
Kershaw's Lesser Known Right Arm
Wait TV revenue ROSE after MLBTV took over and Manfred said SD would recoup 80% max of what Bally was paying?
BrianStrowman9
Lol The MLB is going to bail out the Bally sports teams with even MORE revenue than their agreed upon contracts!
BaseballisLife
Manfred said that MLB would guarantee that all teams affected by the DSG bankruptcy would recieve 80% of their contract. He never said that was the max any team could make.
The Padres never spent a day off air, added 2 million TV households to their TV market, are available on every station they were before plus one, and sold 250-300k single team packages on MLB.tv according to several different sources. So yes, they came out ahead in all of that.
RSNs are a dead sports model, but TV is not.
websoulsurfer
The last reported number on the single team packages sold was 285K. If that carried out over a full season its $34 million or about 57% of the total DSG/Ballys was paying them. If MLB is taking 20% of that for production costs, a pretty good estimate, then they are still bringing in nearly half of what DSG/Bally’s was paying them just from those packages.
That does not include the money they are getting from Cox, Spectrum, DIRECTV, ATT, and Fubo are paying them. Those are all the same providers that carried their games when DSG/Ballys held the broadcast rights. Now the Padres get 100% of what they are paying to broadcast the games.
mlbdodgerfan2015
Forbes says Padres negative $53mm of operating income. Perhaps numbers are outdated as revenues likely increased but costs also increased with inflation. Someone here posted an assumption of $130mm in non payroll costs as that is amount for Atlanta/Toronto, two cities with cost of living well below San Diego’s. With inflation that number is likely a lot higher than $130mm. All that to say that they are barely profitable if even in the black.
BaseballisLife
MLB said coming into this season that the Padres would be paying into the revenue sharing system rather than recieving revenue sharing. Thinking Manfred knows their 2022 finances better than Forbes.
The Padres CEO said they wouldn’t be losing money this season. Quite sure the CEO would know better than anyone.
JoeBrady
Just because they paid in last last year doesn’t mean they will pay in this year. According to COTs, their payroll is $61M higher, and the CBT could be considerably higher as well.
Pads Fans
Forbes said that the Braves had $425 million in revenue. The Braves are owned by a publicly held corporation so they have to reveal to the public their actual numbers. Liberty Media showed that the Braves revenue was $576 million in 2022.. Slight difference there.
Atlanta Braves Holdings, Inc. said on their earnings call in August of this year that through July 1st the Braves had made $301 million in 2023.
Manfred mentioned the top 5 teams in revenue at the Winter Meetings and he didn’t mention the Braves in that list of teams. $576 million and they were not top 5.
mlbdodgerfan2015
If you bothered to read the footnotes on Forbes report, under revenue it says net of stadium revenues used for debt payments. Probably explains why at $425mm for revenue.
Also revenues is not making money. From the same earnings report you call out, it shows that year to date Braves are barely net cash flow positive ($11mm) and negative operating income (-$30mm). I don’t doubt that the Padre are in the red in operating income.
SDHotDawg
@BaseballIs …
You’re basing what you “think” you know about the Padres finances on something Seidler said at the beginning of the season? Of course, this was BEFORE the Diamond/Bally bankruptcy which will cost the Padres at least $60M in bottom line revenue.
Before you call Acee a liar, you should probably learn the difference between debt SERVICE and a debt RATIO.
websoulsurfer
Not sure how you think the Padres lost any money in the DSG bankruptcy. They missed one payment and MLB paid 80% of that to the team.
The Padres were on the air immediately on all the same TV outlets and they added one. Because of the DSG agreements, they actually added 2 million more possible viewers. You don’t really think they gave their broadcast to Cox, Spectrum, DIRECTV, ATT, and FUBO for free do you? The Padres got 100% of that money because once DSG defaulted, the Padres owned their broadcast rights.
They also sold 285k single team packages to locals at $19.99 per month. MLB is certainly getting a portion of that money, but not more than 20%. You do the math. You claim elsewhere to be very proficient at it.
A hint, its nearly HALF of the money DSG would have paid them for the rest of the season JUST from the single team MLB.tv packages.
Debt service RATIO is what MLB is actually concerned with. The team can have no more than $1 of debt service (payments made on debts annually) for every $1.15 of net operating income.
So before you call out someone else about this, make sure you have at least a modicum of understanding of what actually happened.
SDHotDawg
@wss….
You seriously don’t believe they lost a dime in revenue from the Diamond/Bally bankruptcy? Sorry, but I think I’ll go with what was published in Forbes, USA Today, and the SDUT among others. Not that your verbose rationalization wasn’t entertaining, but it’s pure speculation, regardless of your claims.
Pads Fans
Ryan, none of those outlets have said that the Padres lost money on their TV deal. They reported that the Padres lost one payment from Diamond Sports Group and that that MLB paid 80% of that just like Web said. Again, you are making things up in an effort to try to win an argument.
Maury Brown and sports business publications like Sports Business Journal, Front Office Sports, and Sportsbusiness.com in their MLB Insights Report on Sports Media all have said that the Padres have increased TV related revenue since the Diamond Sports Group filed bankruptcy and defaulted on their payment to the Padres. They hold them up as the example that other teams will follow if the RSNs continue to collapse.
Ryan, I know you never have in the past. but maybe, just maybe, you should listen to people that know more than you do because they actually pay attention to what is going on.
Deleted Userr
websoulsurfer = BaseballisLife
SDHotDawg
@legendary …
Yeah. One of the two things that suck the fun out this forum. That’s why I have sporadic participation. Reddit’s usually my preferred …
SDHotDawg
I must have hit a nerve by giving Pads Fans actual facts!
He muted me! Yee-haw! I told you guys, if you stand up to these arrogant jerks with their insults, name-calling, and blatantly fake “facts,” they’ll go full coward and eventually disappear.
Butter Biscuits
The padres disarray will continue into the off-season
Samuel
It will continue for years to clean up Preller’s messes.
Not too many teams wanting to take on the long-term contracts of Machado, Tatis and others with both the years remaining and their attitudes towards doing their jobs. That means some decent players at reasonable salaries will have to be moved to pull the payroll down (teams will be calling about Kim).
And so much for the MLBTR posters that are on here every day of the year that are so ignorant of MLB bylaws that they call any teams owner/FO that manages their payroll responsibly as being “Cheap”.
Morons.
Kids.
jdgoat
I don’t think you of all people should be throwing the M word around, Samuel.
Jeremy320
Padres might not have the money to honor those contracts. They will all be looking for trades this offseason to secure their financial futures. What an absolute mess.
Samuel
AJ Peller will make the best scouting supervisor in MLB of unsigned youngsters available for the draft and whatever you call unsigned 15-21 year-olds.
As a GM he’s been a disaster. He’s incapable of delegating, allowing his manager and others do their jobs. The only smart move he’s made has been to steal pitching coach Ruben Niebla from Cleveland, then standing back enough for Niebla to straighten out pitchers the Padres have under contract.
Even though the NL West is a radically overrated division, the next 2-3 years are going to be difficult for the Padres. If he stays, Bob Melvin will be doing a Bud Black impersonation – an excellent MLB manager that has to put up with a poor roster because of moves being made for reasons other than winning in mind.
BlueSkies_LA
News flash: Failure remains an orphan.
tonyinsingapore
A hitting-neutral ballpark would solve many of the Pads problems, without creating total chaos on the mound….
Pads Fans
Weather, specifically a marine layer that rolls in most nights around game time, is the biggest factor in the park being a pitchers park today. They have already brought the walls in and lowered them.
Jack Buckley
Whatever the Dodgers are doing developing players is working, at one point, they had 12 pitchers injured, Walker Buehler, Tony Gosselins, Dustin May are injured and Julio Urias is gone, just reload from the minors, more teams should hire Dodgers coaches
Samuel
Jack Buckley;
If they’re so good at developing pitchers, why do so many of their pitchers get injured?
The NL West isn’t a strong division.
I don’t think the Dodgers are all that good.
foppert1
Because they are developing ? Learning new pitches, constantly perfecting the ones they do have. Anytime you are pushing the body to give you more, you are increasing the risk of injury. Especially when the baseline you are working off is already at the outer reaches of what it can do.
fred-3
That’s not what people were saying about the division when everyone was sucking off the Padres
differentbears
The Dodgers are not that good? Any other year a weak division would be a better argument, but this year they went from 19 games against each division opponent to 13 games.
The Dodgers have 96 wins. In a year they didn’t really try to add on, and have one starter left from their opening day rotation. They are not feasting on a weak division, they are doing what the Dodgers do: winning with depth, talent assessment, and an organization-wide culture.
BlueSkies_LA
Divisions ranked by current run differential:
ALE, NLE, NLW, ALW, NLC, ALC
The Dodgers are what they are: a team that has outscored all but one other team in baseball, and will probably win 100 games this year despite having had only one opening day starter make it all the way through to the end of the season. They also had to play around a bullpen that totally sucked for the first half of the season.
And, as it’s been pointed out already, everybody plays everyone now, so it’s much more difficult for teams to feast on doormat teams within their division.
Samuel
LOL
BlueSkies_LA;
Run differentia is an even m ore meaningless statistic than pitch framing.
BlueSkies_LA
Ah, so you’ve found another way to win a ballgame other than scoring more runs than the other team? Do tell!
Samuel
BlueSkies_LA;
Huh?
You mean they award more wins to a team if they win by lets say 6 runs than one?
When was that rule passed?
In 2016 the Cleveland team scored more runs then the Chicago Cubs team did in the World Series. Why did they award the championship to the Cubs?
BlueSkies_LA
Statistics 101 would be a good class for you to take.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
In signing Walker Buehler in the draft, they were taking a high risk high reward pick. It has worked out well for them even taking account his injury
Pads Fans
More teams should spend $1 billion more than than any other team in their division over a 12 year period so they can load up their farm system.
AgeeHarrelsonJones
Preller is really good at fantasy baseball, apparently. Managing real humans? Not so much
fathead0507
Hader will be a Rangers after the atrocity they call a bullpen this season
Dodger Dog
That’s my pick for his destination too
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Start with trading Soto. 30 something mill off the books.
Unpopular move would be move Kim. Saves 7 mill and between him and Soto Padres can bring in some young controllable pieces. Money crunch all but screams they won’t find funds to extend Kim after giving contracts to Machado Cronenworth and Bogaerts.
Darvish and Musgrove are the 1-2. Avila Waldron and some guys in the minors compete for the 3-5 spot.
Use the available funds to improve the bullpen and maybe add some starter depth.
A Soto trade should bring back a young controllable outfielder to replace him. Bring back Profar as depth.
Shift Cronenworth back to 2B. Resign Choi or Cooper or get a 1B via free agency or trade.
QO Hader Snell Lugo. Grab draft pick compensation.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
I like most of what you said No Subscriptions, but that rotation would be awfull. Especially with Darvish and Musgrove’s concerns this year..
And Waldron and Avila? They’re soooo unproven, and in Waldron’s case, he struggled both in the minors and majors this yr.
They’ll need to bring in at least 1-2 proven vets imo, and hope a guy like Snelling can be ready to step in early in the season.
Also…trade Cronenworth.
He’s getting worse every year.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
You can’t trade Cronenwerth because no one wants him
If you trade Soto, it should be for pitching
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
You can if you package him along with say Soto and Lesco. Agreed on the pitching part though. I’d be calling the Yankees, Mets, and Mariners. All need offensive minded outfielders, and Cronenworth (if they pay down his salary a bit) is still a two time all star who could be viewed as at worst, a good Jack of all trades super utility guy.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
As a 5 I think Waldron can do it
As a 4 I think Avila can do it
Wacha is the 3 but given injury history to Darvish Musgrove Wacha Avila they should seek some depth.
But in the event funds aren’t there seems better to go with Avila and Waldron than overpay for guys taking up financial room.
LFGSD619
Cronenworth isn’t getting worse every year his WAR/games played went up from 2020 to 2021.
Deleted Userr
You can’t trade Soto unless you get CJ Abrams, MacKenzie Gore, Bobby Barrels, James Wood and Jarlin Susana back.
JoeBrady
LOL! That’ll never happen. There is no way that one season of Soto is worth 5 seasons of Abrams.
Deleted Userr
Then pound sand. You can’t trade Soto and then trade him 1 year later unless you get back a comparable return.
This one belongs to the Reds
You knew this was coming when the Bally’s deal went south.
rememberthecoop
Trade Soto?
nutznboltz
If I were in charge, I would let Hader go and trade Soto. I would take that money and pay Snell. Somehow try and trade Darvish. That is a stupid contract at his age.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Snell is going to get close to 200 million
No one wants Darvish without the contract being bought down. No one wants Crony at any price
Your strategy is sell low and buy high
Drew4578545
They did not fall to the Cardinals in 2020. They were swept by the Dodgers.
Jordan 5
If they are cutting back, Maybe they can sign some of the homeless around downtown.
lowtalker1
Padres beat down the cardinals in 2020
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
So the straight forward answer here is that they trade Soto for 2-3 mlb ready kids, let Snell and Hader walk, and only go after 2nd-3rd tier free agents. (J. Turner/G. Cooper would be good fits as multi positional possibilities in small doses, but mainly 1B/DH guys).
Catcher seems to finally be Campusano’s job to lose..as he raked after coming back from injury..
Have to figure out if they can unload Cronenworth (maybe in a Soto trade? Package Lesko in there too as a high end arm to balance Cronenworth’s contract?)
And finally get rid of Grisham..with Tatis probably moving to CF, as RF’s are easier to find. (Dare I say Renfroe?)
As for offense, they should still be fine with some combination of Kim, Tatis, Machado, Bogaerts, and Campusano as the top/middle of the lineup..and if they can resign Coop, and maybe bring in JT, that’s a deeper lineup than they’ve had in years. After that, you hope that guys like Rosario, and whatever youngsters come back in trades are ready to at least not be terrible (like Grisham).
The pitching side is concerning though, with them possibly needing up to 3 starters (if Wacha opts out). Maybe hope for a bounce back by a guy like Giolito? Hope Snelling can slide in early in the season?
Ugh. One way or the other, lots of work to do..especially with Ohtani most likely going to the Dodgers imo..
dave frost nhlpa
Here is their chance at Velasquez or Brito and Higgy/Perierra from the Yanks for Soto.
Jeremy320
Padres spent money they did not have and are now so heavily in debt they violate debt ratio rules. In laymen’s terms they racked up the debt are now in sufficient danger of bankruptcy. Not that they are bankrupt but they are heading in that direction. Hence, the rules.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
They’re paying into the competitive balance fund next year, which means they turned a profit.
wallabeechamp
Does anybody remember the Mariachi Fiesta productions the Pobres would put on whenever the offense managed to pull itself out that season long malaise? Or how about the ‘Swag Chain’?!!? The crying Kershaw meme?
Good times. They seem so distant now…
unpaidobserver
Man, must have been a real beautiful summer in Southern California, because the Angels and SD acting like they just got back into the office after taking a good chunk of the summer off.
adshadbolt
Trading Soto is really the only option they have to aggressively slash payroll and get any kind of value in return. Bogarts and Machado have no trades. No one is lining up for Tatis with his contract. They have to keep Kim he has been there best player and is cheap. Cronenworth has negative value right now they would have to attach a prospect with him just to move the contract which they are not in a position to do rn.
A soto deal could net them three starting caliber players and lottery pick. A couple options:
Soto to SEA for Woo, Hancock, Canzone and a prospect
Soto to NYY for Jones, Schmitt, Trevino and a flyer
Soto to the Cubs for Wicks, Brown, Cassie and two flyers
Soto to ARI for Jamison, Lin, De los Santos, fletcher and another prospect
They should let carpenter, Martinez, Nola, hader walk. Nontender Grisham if they can’t trade him for anything
Try to resign snell but if it goes above a number there comfortable with let him walk.
Bring back cooper and wacha.
Target players like wood, Mahle, maeda, chafin, fulmer, Alvarado, Moore. To help rebuild the bullpen and rotation.
Target Tony kemp for the bench, bader to play CF, conforto for LF, Kepler as a bench DH, 1b, OF option. Target a good backup catcher via trade or FA maybe Murphy (SEA), carantini, hedges, Gomes.
They need to build a better 10-27 on the roster because their 1-10 is elite but the rest is terrible
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
All of the trades you mentioned are asking for a little too much back for Soto, who’s clearly a rental.
Carpenter is going to pick up his option. Only way to get rid of him is to DFA him, which would make the contract sunk cost.
I’d say move Tatis to CF, because LF and RF are easier to replace. Hell..you could even resign Cooper and have him start out there a couple days a week..then grab someone like Renfroe as your primary RF. Dude’s got his flaws, but hitting him 6th or 7th wouldn’t be the worst, and he’s familiar with Petco.
Not sure what to do with LF if you trade Soto though. Perhaps resign Profar on the cheap, and hope he at least gets back to what he was 2 years ago.
A lineup of Kim, Tatis, Machado, Bogaerts, Campusano, Cooper, Renfroe, Profar, and DH (Justin Turner?) wouldn’t be bad (although very RH heavy) especially if they can grab some pitching in a Soto deal.
Then they’d need to find a couple of LH bats to mix in.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Unless Giants and Diamondbacks severely overpay the Padres aren’t trading Soto within the division.
Dark horse candidate would be the Reds. Soto would rake there.
Rhett Lowder and Connor Phillips as the headliners
For the Mariners a Woo, Hancock, Clare, Locklear, and Berroa package would ensure Mariners get Soto. And have funds to extend him.
Would be wild for Mariners to get both Soto and Ohtani
This one belongs to the Reds
I don’t see the Reds doing that. They need pitching much more than more hitting.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Buy free agent pitching like the Cubs did or Rangers did.
Or trade some hitters for mlb pitching.
Definitely think Reds can afford Soto and a #1 #2 or #2 #3.
This one belongs to the Reds
Their current GM has not shown that he is good at acquiring current major league talent so far. We will see how they fare this offseason.
Draft and develop, sure. Acquiring current major league talent that is not past their shelf life? Not so much.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
The more they invest, the harder they fall. No longer can you buy a championship, let alone a winning season. Teams like the Rays are better off.
JoeBrady
Interesting. If they intend to get their payroll down from $248(as defined) to $200M, I can’t see them surviving. Assuming Soto gets $30M, and Lugo & Wacha opt out, that leaves them at $171M, and they need three SPs and a closer, a DH, and maybe a 1B. And even at that, their only two SPs are both on the IL.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Where is at @Gywnning to put out this comment section dumpster fire??
JayRyder
Wow. My thoughts – You cannot win on paper. No matter how smart you are working the system.
A lot of big contracts creates a lot of egos. Also the market sets the price anyway, So free agents are going to cost a ton more, With Boagerts as an example, Costing a freaking ton in years and dollars.
They resigned there future too with Darvish and Machado. Tatis. Those guys are foundational. No qualms there. Maybe it’s the minor leaguers. Is there still talent available to come up ?
Preller is the fall guy in this situation. He got the ok to spend huge. And the mix didn’t work. Melvin is incredibly steady and possibly has the owners ear.
Of course rich guys love putting pressure. So this could be leaked hyperbole. Bottom line, The Pads were ineffective until the last three weeks when their butts were on the line. That says a lot about the chemistry. Same thing as the Yankees. They should have been winning all year if they’re that good.
Dennis Boyd
Melvin mismanaged the bullpen AGAIN. I want Preller gone more (this dumpster fire of a franchise is mostly his fault), but Melvin really sucks with the bullpen. Sanchez will blow at least 7 saves early next year and they will have to try some AAA guys in that position. Next year is going to be ugly unless some young guys step up.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Dennis Boyd
Who is Sanchez?
Dennis Boyd
Suarez, lol. Embarrassing, careless misname following bitter loss.
buya
Preller spends money and over in SF Farhan don’t spend money.
how about Preller to SF and Farhan to SD of course after both get fired
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Not happening but funny
LordD99
“…in part because they are out of compliance with MLB regulations regarding their debt service ratio.”
——
Needs further explanation. How does it account for an owner funding parts of the operation, such as Steve Cohen?
Pads Fans
Let me start with some things Acee got totally wrong in that piece and then my thoughts.
#1 – The Padres are not in violation of the debt service policy of MLB. How do I know that? Because the Padres will be a net revenue sharing PAYOR, not a net recipient this season. To fall into that category that means that they have to have revenue in the top 14 in baseball. That means their revenue had to have been over $410 million.
#2 – The Padres are profitable. Greupner said as much prior to the season and drawing 3.232 million fans only increased the profit level. The article Acee referenced in this article literally refutes his argument that the Padres spending has outpaced their revenue. He is hoping you won’t read it.
We don’t know exactly what the Padres total non-baseball operations related costs are, but we do know that the Braves and Jays spent about $130 million last season. Do the math. $410+ million in revenue – $249 million in payroll – $130 million in non-baseball operations related costs. That = a net profit was made. To have a net profit, that means your net operating income was much higher. That means that they are not in violation of debt service rules which says for every $1.00 of debt service required to be paid there must be $1.15 of Net Operating Income available.
#3 – The Padres lost no revenue when DSG went bankrupt and stopped paying them. Multiple articles, including by Maury Brown of the Business of Baseball and in sports business publications, talk about the fact that the Padres market grew by 2 million and their TV related revenue increased since that time.
#4 – The Padres drew 3.2 million fans with an average ticket price of $33.81. The average spend for a family of 4 in-stadium including tickets was $203. You do the math. They brought in nearly half of their payroll in ticket sales alone and that was less than 30% of their total revenue.
#5 – Seidler said prior to his latest medical issue that the Padres payroll would be about the same as in 2023. Regardless of what Acee thinks, Seidler makes the decisions. Siedler Equity Partners has no say in the matter. Peter Seidler personally is the investor in the team and he owns in excess of 50%.
Its funny how when Alden Global Capital took over the UT, the tenor of the articles being written by Acee changed. No longer are sources name. Innuendo is king. Everything is about sensationalism and getting clicks.
The Padres have about $188 million on the books for next season including all arbitration raises, all players that have not qualified for arbitration and the two player options almost certain to be picked up. If Lugo and Wacha opt out as expected, the Padres will have 9 positions that will need to be filled including 3 starting pitchers. They are not doing that with $12 million.
They do not have the players in the minors to fill even the 3 starting pitching holes, let alone the other 6 positions.
Also, the Padres have been named as the front runner for several FA including Yamamoto and Lee that will cost far in excess of $12 million while only filling 2 spots on the roster. Lee alone may cost that much.
Acee is either wrong or is lying to try to gain audience with sensationalistic copy.
The Padres will go into 2024 spending money. They may dip slightly below the $241 million CBT payroll, but they will be spending FAR more than the $12 million Acee is trying to claim they will spend.
Sometimes common sense and the facts has to be taken into account. Acee failed to do so.
SportsFan0000
Acee has sources in the Padres Front Offices who were in these meetings and are privy to this information.
He is not just making this stuff up.
That the Padres made such a big deal about missing the playoffs for the 10M+ in extra revenues that they lost, tells me that the SD Padres have cash flow issues.
Spending is going down in ’24
Soto will be traded/
Others will not be resigned.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Acee is first and foremost a journalist who will lie and omit stuff for clicks. Take everything any journalist says with a grain of salt.
Buying a championship team hasn’t worked. And that’s fine but can’t expect owners to dish out money just to not win anything like the dodgers do every year. Most owners want to see a return on their investments. Had padres made playoffs spending probably stays the same.
But directing the organization from free agent buying to prospect development isn’t all that bad of an approach.
Prellers done a lot of good things for san diego. His eye for talent is spot on especially in trades for prospects but he’s not very good at buying free agents.
I wouldn’t mind if padres hire someone from rays front office and give them a shot at gm looking for player development.
Pads Fans
Sports0, I present facts. You present opinion.
The one fact you tried to present, you got wrong. Each game in the post season is worth about $15 million. We know that from the Braves who are owned by a publicly traded company and their books are open.
Seidler said spending will stay the same. He is the owner and makes the decisions. The Padres have made an extension offer to Soto in the last few days. Probably not going to be traded. EVERY season some are not resigned. Some are. If you have been paying attention you know that the Padres resign the guys they want back more often than not.
BlueSkies_LA
Debt service is only half about revenue. The other half is about… debt. Since it’s a ratio of one against the other, no meaningful statement can be made about whether the Padres have exceeded MLB’s debt service rules unless you know both numbers.
BTW, the Dodgers got into this situation a few years back, and it wasn’t about a lack of revenue, it was about carrying too much debt. The situation was resolved pretty quickly but the point is proven that large revenue does not alter whether a franchise is carrying to much debt to service with their revenue.
BaseballisLife
That was under McCourt wasnt it?
BlueSkies_LA
No, in 2016, under the current ownership. They inherited several hundred million in debt along with the purchase of the franchise. The MLB rule is teams can’t carry debt of more than 12 times annual net revenue. So profitability isn’t the issue. In fact it’s expected. Franchises that violate the debt service rule aren’t automatically penalized, they just have to demonstrate to MLB that they have a plan to bring the debt service into line. This can be done by either reducing debt or increasing net revenue.
websoulsurfer
It was. Blue Skies, that is what you are referencing, right?
BlueSkies_LA
If I understand what you are asking, I don’t think so. The debt service issue for the Dodgers came up several years after the new ownership took over. A big chunk of the debt came along with the purchase of the franchise but likely more of it was added with stadium renovations. A lot of dire predictions were made then too, but they were ill-informed, just as they probably are in the case of the Padres now.
websoulsurfer
The Dodgers did spend several hundred million on ballpark renovations after the new ownership took over and McCourt was on the verge of bankruptcy so I am sure he had huge debt that was transferred along with the team. That makes sense.
BaseballisLife
Padres have revenue of over $410 million. That’s known because MLB said they would be paying into the revenue sharing system instead of getting paid.
The Padres paid $115 million of the cost of building Petco with developers and taxpayers paying the rest. That was financed over 20 years. That is also a known figure.
Debt service as a percentage of net operating income is what MLB is concerned with, but since they made a profit according to their CEO that number would also have to be positive.
This is pretty obviously clickbait from Acee.
SportsFan0000
Know way to know the Padres books unless they open it up.
Owners paid 800M for the team (and it was not cash).
Financed the purchase.
Took over some debt service from former owner.
And, spent big on free agents.
Even if they refinanced all that debt(with lower interest rates a few years ago)
They could still be paying on a note(s) of over 1 billion dollars.
Deleted Userr
BIL and websoulsurfer are the same guy SportsFan.
BaseballisLife
You are confusing Moorad with the O’Malley group.
The Padres were owned by John Moores who held 50.68% of the team and a group of minority partners who owned 49.32%. Ron Fowler was the largest minority partner at the time holding a 29.32% interest in the team.
As part of the $800 million sale, Fox Sports SD gave John Moores an advance of $200 million. That made the purchase price of the team $600 million.
The O’Malley led group included Peter O’Malley, his sons Kevin and Brian, his nephews Peter and Tom Seidler, and Ron Fowler as well as a small group of existing minority partners. In total Fowler and the group of other minority partners held what amounted to $300 million of interest in the team. The O’Malley family invested a total of $300 million in a cash transaction. They did not finance the purchase of the team all.
Ron Fowler was the largest individual owner within the O’Malley group.
The new ownership group inherited debt for the stadium of $67.5 million. Moores ownership group had originally taken on $115 million of the cost of building the stadium and financed it through a 20 year bond issuance in 2004.
At the end of the 2020 season Peter Seidler purchased a portion of Fowler’s shares in the partnership and became the largest equity holder in the team and managing partner. Seidler now holds over 50% equity in the team.
Hope that helps you understand the Padres sale to the current ownership better.
flamingbagofpoop
He’s wrong so often that he’s had to make like 4 accounts to agree with and thumbs up his own posts.
websoulsurfer
BIL, who are you responding too? There are a couple of points you got wrong.
When the Padres were sold to the O’Malley group, the minority partners from the Moores era only retained 39.32% equity in the team with Fowler owning the majority of that. Not the 49.32% they controlled prior to the sale.
The $200 million that Fox Sports San Diego contributed to the purchase price was split based on equity to Moores and the minority partners that wanted to cash out.
The O’Malley/Seidler family paid roughly $364 million in cash for the remaining equity in the team. According to the Moores’ divorce proceedings, all of that went to John and Becky Moores.
Until November 2020 when Fowler sold a portion of his equity share to Peter Seidler, no individual O’Malley/Seidler family member controlled more than 20% of the equity in the team.
After subsequent purchases from family members and buying out other minority partners, Peter Seidler now owns 50+% of the team.
websoulsurfer
I thought the CBT threshold was $237 million next season and goes to $241 million in 2025. That $4 million would make a difference in signing or not signing a guy like Sanchez.
VonPurpleHayes
Everyone likes to see big spenders fail, but the Padres are the unluckiest team in the league this year. They have 0 extra inning wins. If they ain half of those, they’re in the playoffs. I think they’re much better than their record shows, but that’s baseball.
SportsFan0000
Because the Padres traded away their depth, bench and farm system players that could have stepped up and stepped in.
AJ Preller’s time in San Diego featured: poorly constructed rosters, terrible, one sided trades and much more.
Preller is good at finding and drafting young talent,
fred-3
They collapsed like this in 2021, though. And it’s basically the same team, with the same guy making the decisions. It probably would’ve happened last season if the Brewers didn’t quit on the season, as well. It can’t be bad luck if they always underwhelm.
VonPurpleHayes
Their pen stinks for sure, but honestly, it’s very difficult to lose 12 extra-inning games. That’s incredibly bad luck, and I’m not a Padres fan.
Samuel
“..it’s very difficult to lose 12 extra-inning games. That’s incredibly bad luck,”
Von;
“Luck” has nothing at all to do with a statistic like that.
beyou02215
The Bogaerts signing was horrendous and the Machado extension will be an albatross before long. Those are two moves that I just can’t square.
BaseballisLife
I keep seeing people try to say that and I don’t get it. In a down year for him, Bogey produced $40 million in value while being paid $25 million.
websoulsurfer
Bogaerts produced a 4.4 WAR that is worth $40 million while being paid $25 million. In what world is that horrendous?
beyou02215
They are paying him $25 million per year for the next 10 years beyond 2023. There is zero chance that contract ages well and it’s only a matter of time, probably a short amount of time, before that contract is dead weight.
websoulsurfer
If he doesn’t rebound from what was a very bad season for HIM and just repeats this in 2024 and then starts the inevitable decline we see the from age 31 plus players with a 4.4 WAR season as his base it would be 2030 before the Padres would be in the red for a single season in terms of the value he provides. That is if the average salaries of FA does not go up between now and 2030. I think we both know that the valuation of FA will go up and go up substantially in the next 7 years.
Again calculating based on the average rate of decline for 31+ year old players and then the higher rate of decline for age 36+ players, for his career with the Padres Bogaerts would be projected to have a 34.9 WAR worth about $322 million at the CURRENT valuation of free agents.
His contract is for $280 million. That would allow for even greater decline in production than the average or a position change and the Padres still break even over the terms of his contract.
I am guessing when they signed that 11-year deal, the Ivy League educated math whizzes in the Padres FO did calculations even more precise than mine and came to a similar conclusion. Baseball is a business and the billionaires that own the teams want to make a profit. If they are continuing to offer contracts like Bogaert’s deal even though fans like you think that the deals are stupid, it’s because they are making money off the deals.
The bottom line is that the deal is not horrendous. It’s a good deal for both sides and barring a catastrophic injury that ends his career completely, the Padres and Bogaerts will both do well. A win-win for the team and the player.
SportsFan0000
Not surprising to me. at all.
I took a lot of flack from posters on MLB Trade Rumors
for my posts about: Padres Ownership, the Front Office in disarray and mismanagement by AJ Preller of the team, the farm system, horrible one sided trades,
terrible free agent signings, recycling over the hill ex Texas Rangers players thru the Padres roster and much more.
Turns out that my posts and comments about the completely dysfunctional Padres
Front Office, team, farm system, AJ Peller, the Soto trade, multiple terribly one sided trades that gutted the Padres farm system and created huge holes in the Padres and completely ruined their depth and status as a playoffs contender etc. were “spot on”.. AND 1000% CORRECT!
AJ Preller was the reason that former Padres player & manager Bruce Bochy turned
down a return to managing with the Padres.
Ownership sided with AJ Preller instead of siding with future Hall of Fame Manager Bochy (and hiring a New Pres of Baseball Ops. by firing AJ Preller so Bochy could have a big say in the next Pres of Baseball Ops). Too late. Bochy is “locked in ” with the Rangers.
HUGE MISTAKE as we can see from the performance of the Rangers with Bochy managing.
Juan Soto will be traded in the offseason.
You can set your watch to it.
Seidler and the Padres Ownership group only have to look north to Anaheim
to see the the completely dumb lack of move/trade by Arte Moreno and the Angels in not “cashing in” Ohtani for a truckload of top young players and prospects at ;last years trade deadline. Ohtani is not going back to the Angels and was never staying there
after they wasted a big part of Mike Trout’s best years with crappy teams..
Soto bidding should start right away,
The Padres need a young CF, Young starting pitching,(at least 2 starters), a 1B/DH type, a closer, bench depth and more.
Which teams will bid on Soto?!
Mets? Dodgers? Yankees? Giants? Phillies? Mariners?
What teams have the best young players, farm systems and the money to get the inside track on resigning Soto long term?!
SportsFan0000
It should be a very busy off season for the San Diego Padres.
Is former Astros Pres of Baseball Ops Jeff Luhnow
a possible candidate to takeover baseball ops for the Padres?!
GarryHarris
Considering how Jeff Luhnow was absolutely wronged by everyone involved in Baseball, no way he’ll ever return.
BaseballisLife
Luhnow OWNS two soccer teams one of which is looking like it will get promoted to the top level in Spain. He is not coming back to baseball.
Deleted Userr
Can’t trade Soto unless you get CJ Abrams, MacKenzie Gore, Bobby Barrels, James Wood and Jarlin Susana back. Or something outrageous like Acuña from the Braves.
SportsFan0000
The price will not be as high since
Soto only has 1 year until free agency, but it will still be high .
Deleted Userr
Either that or no trade. You can’t trade for Soto just to trade him for 50 cents on the dollar a year later. Or else you look like the 49ers trading 3 first rounders and a third rounder for Trey Lance just to flip Lance 2 years later for a fourth rounder.
CNichols
Honest question here, if the Padres are 15 games out of a playoff spot at the deadline in ‘24, do you think they can trade Soto or does it still have to be a return equal to what they gave up 2 years earlier when he wasn’t a rental?
SDHotDawg
Good question. I don’t think they’ll ever get a return for Soto that’s anywhere close to what they gave up.
Deleted Userr
They could probably get a better return than the 4th/5th round sandwich pick from the QO but they’d still look like idiots for trading all that for him in the first place.
But for the moment the Padres are trying to contend in 2024 and/or extend Soto.
colton
Big money, Big problems.
GarryHarris
Most of the players A.J. Preller acquired are good. He made good trades. You can fault him for not addressing the top two hitters positions, DH and 1B, in a timely manner. Those two spots were terrible. Also, although a good defender, CF Trent Grisham may be the worst hitting CF in MLB.
Losing Joe Musgrove was huge. Baseball teams need that Stopper. But I think the poor results are more on the players than with management. This is not a team built with complimentary players but a bunch of window dressed feature players. Similar to last year’s Blue Jays, its not a cohesive team.
Cleon Jones
Well said. Managers come and go but they can never put together a functional team:
si.com/mlb/2023/09/11/padres-epic-failure-team-off…
SportsFan0000
The Padres do have some top young prospects knocking on the door for the majors in the next year or 2 including: SS Jackson Merrill who could be on the team in ’24 (OF? or SS and move Bogaerts to 2B?)
Catcher Ethan Salas (17 year old phenom could be in majors by late ;’24 , early ’25
Starting pitchers Dylan Lesko and Robbie Snelling could be future mainstays in the rotation.
OF Sam Zavalla looks like a “keeper” also,
ChuckyNJ
Perfect timing for this story. The Padres have to prune their payroll as they were mathematically eliminated last night by losing at San Francisco.
BTW, Soto ain’t going to the Yankees cos that would bring back bad memories of the 80’s when the Yankees spent a lot and won nothing.
JoeBrady
they were mathematically eliminated last night
========================
Wasn’t that a big discussion just a day or so back on their chances of getting in?
Datashark
They need to trade one of their big 3 hitters for a ace starter — That is what they miss – they got enough run producers to withstand reduce their losing close games and extra innings by keep other teams scores low to begin with.
CNichols
The Padres have actually allowed 642 runs this year, which is 2nd lowest amount in the National League. They also have the second lowest ERA in the NL, behind only Milwaukee in both categories.
It’s not really a run prevention issue, it’s a situational hitting problem. They don’t hit with RISP and they don’t manufacture runs in close games.
websoulsurfer
Not manufacturing runs in close games is a management problem. Its on Melvin. He is supposed to be the tactical genius and instead he has taken a “hands-off approach” to managing the team and it showed in the results they got most of the season.
filihok
Re: CN
People really need to quit using ERA as a pitching metric. At least use E$A+ or E$A-
Run environment matters!
Padres are tied for 9th in ERA+
baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023-standar…
SDHotDawg
People really need to quit using metrics they don’t understand just to make themselves sound smarter.
filihok
SDHD
Agreed
Now just admit that you don’t have the slightest understanding of probabilities or sample size
Of course, you think that you do have an understanding of them. And that’s based on absolutely nothing.
I can all but guarantee that you’ve never, fairly, passed a statistics class.
websoulsurfer
Just out of curiosity, are you the same Filihok that used to publish on City-data back in the day?
If you are that Filihok, I used to love your player projections. They were thought provoking and sometimes even on the money.
Haven’t been on those forums in a decade or more. Are they still around?
filihok
wss
I did used to post there. I haven’t been there in a long time.
I didn’t recall making player projections, but I went back and searched, and I did.
I’m sure some are also very wrong, that’s the nature of predicting the future.
Also, did you read where SDHD said we couldn’t predict anything? That [individual] is absurd.
SDHotDawg
LOL!! Yeah, everybody knows you can “predict” anything. Now THAT’S an absurd cognitive leap! We’ll just call you Nostradamus while chuckling behind your back.
GarryHarris
They also are poor base runners.
Pokeli
This does put a smile on my face
jvent
The Mets should sign Snell and Hader , do not trade for Soto, we have a lot of OF’s already. The Mets should put a package deal for Arenado, ( Baty, McNeil, Allan, a SS prospect and Marte to offset some $$ for Arenado.
Samuel
The Mets tried to be like the Yankees the last 2 years. They realized they were headed in the same direction, went the other way, and are brining in a qualified PoBO that’s too smart to do things like you suggest.
Good luck in your rotisserie league, though.
BaseballisLife
I could see the Mets signing Snell, but they have no need for Hader. Their closer is returning in 2024.
websoulsurfer
Padres are not cutting payroll that drastically. I think Acee is full of it and just trying to drive traffic to his articles by saying something that makes people have a strong BS reaction.
The Padres have nearly $190 million on the books for next season. That includes at a minimum Martinez and Carpenter exercising their player options and raises for the players like Soto, Nola, Hill, and Grisham that are arb eligible as well as those that will be making around the major league minimum. If all the other players that are FA or have player options leave, that means they have 8-9 spots that they have no players in the system to fill.
Dennis Lin and several others reported that the Padres were in negotiations to extend Soto. Seidler said he wants to see Soto in a Padres uniform for the rest of his career. He is not being traded in the offseason. If they are unable to extend him and the team falls apart by the deadline, they could move him then, but not this offseason.
The Padres have been reported to be the favorite to land Jung ho Lee and he is expected to command 5/50 to 5/60. All by himself he brings the team to $200 million. They are also one of the teams reported to be in on Yamamoto and one of 3 that have had their POBO or GM go to Japan to see him in action live. If they have serious interest in signing him, they will go well over $200 million without signing another player or even filling out their roster.
If they lose all 3 of Snell, Lugo and Wacha, they need 3 starting pitchers and there are none in the system that are ready to be a regular in a contending rotation. Avila, Waldron and Groome are all there are. Martinez will go back to the pen. He excels there.
So much of what Acee said makes no sense at all. If he had said they were going to reduce payroll to get under the $237 million CBT for 2024, that would make sense. That would entail only Martinez and exercising their options, non-tendering Nola and Grisham., and only spending an additional $37 million on FA and increases in salaries in arbitration.
Getting to $200 million is not possible without gutting the team and conceding the next 3-4 seasons while still having 5 players that are under contract for $18+ million per season for the next 5 years. There is no way they do that after signing all those long-term1 contracts. They are committed and have to see it through at least for the next 3-4 years.
Not certain about the debt service issue but I do know that 2023 was the final season of the Padres commitment for Petco Park and unless salaries are considered debt service, they really have none. Between MLB saying they are a net revenue sharing payer and Greupner saying that they would not be losing money this season, you have to think their revenue was over $400 million. Don’t know how they could be in debt service problems with those things being true.
Like I said, too many issues with the logic in Acee’s article.
foppert1
If the article is BS, then the reasonable expectation is that the Padres will release a statement to counter the falsehoods and soothe the fan base ?
websoulsurfer
Seidler seldom does that and has no reason to do that. Season ticket renewals are already in and he gains nothing by doing so now. He will wait until the season is over and then talk to the media.
The article has so many holes in the logic that there is no other conclusion than it is BS. The facts just don’t stack up.
foppert1
Fair enough.
JoeBrady
Good analysis.
The only way they get below the $237M is to basically have Lugo & Wacha opt out, and then non-tender Grisham, Barlow & Nola. Without signing anyone new, they’d be replacing 3 SPs, the closer and the CF.
At that point, they would be better off just giving up and trading Soto. Tough to see any elegant solutions here, other than going back to $300M.
websoulsurfer
The Padres have their closer to be in house in Suarez. He was hurt most of the season, so most people didn’t get to see him pitch much, but his numbers in 2022 and then in July and this month are a better indicator of his skill level.
If you include Martinez and Carpenter as opting in plus guaranteed contracts and all the arbitration raises and players who are not arbitration ready puts the Padres at about $188 million. Non-tendering Grisham, Barlow, and Nola would save the team about $17 million according to the system this site uses. That would put them at $171 million. That is a nice size chunk of change to go out and get a starter, a corner OF, and a backup catcher.
Tatis is likely to move to CF. The Padres are the odds-on favorite to land Jung Ho Lee. They are also one of the 6 teams mentioned in regard to signing Yamamoto.
CNichols
I am not an Acee fan at all so I’m tracking with a lot of what you’re saying, but I think Martinez isn’t going to pick up those player options. That might clear another $8M.
He’s stated that his preference is starting and he hasn’t really been given an opportunity to consistently do that in SD because they keep moving him to the pen, where he is admittedly better. Basically he would just need to beat 2/16 on the open market and I think he can probably do that considering last year Jordan Lyles got 2/17 with a 4.42 ERA and Martinez is sitting on a 3.59 ERA right now. Even if he can only get 2/16 on the open market, which I think he can beat, he’s probably going to go somewhere else where he can slot into the rotation.
websoulsurfer
Great reasoning on Martinez. His 4.12 ERA as a reliever should not be difficult to replace.
slider32
Winter is coming for the Padres and Mets, but AA has the dragons!
Samuel
Stearns is coming for the Mets.
Tear-it-down rebuild is not required. They will be improved each year for the next 3 years at least.
solaris602
Preller has to step up and take responsibility for this team’s futility over the past 10 years. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks about luck, misfortune, blame, star alignment, or anything like that. Preller has burned through hundreds of millions over the past 10 years with no rings to show for it. Bill Parcells summed it up best when he said, “I am my record.” That’s the ultimate statement of accountability, and I don’t think we’ll be hearing that from Preller any time soon.
websoulsurfer
Preller has been given money to spend in just the last 4 seasons. Before that payroll was in the bottom 5 during his tenure. He has nothing bad to take responsibility for since then.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
He’s made some bad trades. Like Nola, Clevinger, Frazier and possibly Soto.
websoulsurfer
He made some great trades like Tatis, Cronenworth, Musgrove, Snell, Hader, and Darvish. Most likely Soto/Bell too.
Can’t predict injuries like the one Clevinger suffered and prior to the injury that looked like a great trade for the Padres as he put up a 2.84 ERA in those first few starts.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
websoulsurfer, what do you think of Bob Melvin ??
websoulsurfer
I think he failed to set a positive culture and expectation of winning and work ethic in the clubhouse and on the field. I think he failed to do his job. Not only that by his own declaration that he took a “hands-off approach” to managing the team, Melvin abdicated his responsibilities as manager of the team. He set the example for the team with that approach. If the manager is not invested in winning enough to actually manage the team, who would expect the players to act differently?
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Tatis was before the 2019 season ended.
filihok
Solaris
You’re aware that’s football is different then baseball, right?
In football a team’s record is far more telling than in baseball
We know this because the best football teams can win 95-100% of their games. The best baseball teams win 70% of their games.
Luck plays a bigger role in baseball than football.
Sure, Padres exec might have to take responsibility so the uneducated masses are appeased by a rolling head or whatever, but they don’t have to believe it.
SDHotDawg
No, filihok. … the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.
Using “luck” to explain the Padres crappy season is really nothing more than a rationalization wrapped in a lame excuse.
filihok
SDHD
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.”
Provide evidence to support your assertion.
And, please, please, please, don’t say something ignorant like 162 is a larger sample than 17.
Because that would only show everyone that you have zero understanding of samples and probabilities.
SDHotDawg
Do I now have to teach you how to do math? You seriously want “evidence” of math? How statistics are computed? Minimum data points to achieve an acceptable StdDev for a given universe of like samples? How about an explanation of how to compute the R^2? Statistics and Probability equations might be a little bit above your High School Algebra l class.
filihok
SDHD
Those are all words
Nice work
Now teach me* how you would determine an appropriate sample size for an NFL season of 16 games vs an MLB season of 162 games
*show that you have the slightest understanding of samples
easymoney
OK San Diego hot dog you Maybe a armchair GM But no nothing about business or how to run a business I hear you on the statistic issue but I let my front office control Statistics I’m more in the production line where I bring in the money.
SDHotDawg
LOL! I can tell by the way you phrased your question that you’re in way over your head!
(Here’s a hint: a “sample” is just a data point. One.)
easymoney
I can tell by the way you started your question you have a grammar school education
websoulsurfer
SDHotDog, try giving some examples. Maybe all of us will believe you will know what you are talking about then.
Or even just go look them up. John Dewan, Tom Tango, Marcel
Lichtman, and others have already posted what the data size needs to be to get a performance evaluation within the optimum deviation and the standard deviation.
You can go to the Fielding Bible website or TangoTiger or read Bill James or Alan Schwarz books on analytics. You don’t have to DO any math to see what the guys that actually developed these statistics have said is the optimum and minimum data set sizes to get relevant performance measures.
filihok
SDHD
That you’re avoiding answering the question shows that you’re in over yours
Explain why you think that “the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.” as compared to a 16 or 17 game NFL season.
And if you say because 162 > 17, again, everyone who has the slightest understanding of statistics will know that you don’t. Which will exclude you.
filihok
wss
Have they done so for an NFL data vs MLB data
Because that’s what SDHD needs to be able to show
But, it seems pretty clear that they don’t realize that not everything requires the same size sample.
So, maybe if the just look that stuff up they will realize the are wrong.
Then the question will be if they are confident enough in themselves to admit that they were wrong.
I can say that if they do admit they were wrong that I will accept that admission with no gloating and be happy for them that they 1) were a big enough person and 2) learned something.
If they, which I believe is the more likely response, respond with more bluster and insults, then I’ll probably just go ahead and mute them.
It’s no fun to toy with someone incapable of realizing they are being toyed with.
SDHotDawg
“Not everything requires the same size sample…”
Congrats, but do you know what that’s called? Do you know it’s a coefficient that has to be computed before it can be used to compare dissimilar or disproportionate sets of numbers?
You probably look at it every day and don’t know what it means! It’s the ‘w’ in wOBA (for example), and it means “weighted.” Congrats, you just got smarter.
filihok
SDHD
Your insult is noted
As is the fact that you are still refusing to answer any direct question. You just keep repeating “r^2” like that’s some super complex thing that only people in the know would understand and not something you just googled to try to sound like you know what you’re taking about
I should mute you, but I’m not done playing yet
“I never said “because 162 > 17.”
You very much implied it when you posted
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.”
So, come on, teach me something that I don’t know.
Why do you believe that
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season”
Use as much math as you want. I’ll try to hang in
The floor is yours.
filihok
SDHD
Ok
So, explain why you believe
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season”
Use all the math that you want
The floor is yours
websoulsurfer
So you are saying that you DO NOT know what those data sample sizes are? That is all I needed to know about you.
If you had said John Dewan said this and Marcel Lichtman said this then you would have earned my respect. Now I know you are talking about your behind and don’t even understand the stats yourself.
If you were an actual mathematician or even had more than a “I can Google it” understanding, you would simply post the formula. It’s what Tom Tango does in his articles on baseball analytics. It’s what Marcel Lichtman does in everything he publishes. It’s what ALL the great analytics guys that actually work in baseball do.
I am a baseball coach and former scout and longtime baseball curmudgeon. I take the word of people I know I can rely on because they demonstrate they actually know what they are talking about. You have not shown that you can do that.
So in your own words, until you do demonstrate that, STFU.
SDHotDawg
I implied nothing, that’s just your simplistic interpretation.
The more data points (sample size) you have, the fewer anomalies (luck) you woll have as a percentage of the total universe. Yes, it’s that simple.
By the way, anybody who’s taken a class in statistics would know that R^2 is the Coefficient of Deviation. It’s a statistical metric. Unfortunately, this forum does not seem to support mathematical symbols such as Sigma with limits in subscript.
Here’s the deal: as entertaining as you’ve been, you bore me. My only goal was simply to give to you the same kind of BS you seem to give to everybody and anybody who doesn’t blindly agree with your narrative du jour.
Cheers.
SDHotDawg
Obviously not. Until you know what the damn data is that you’re looking for, there’s no way to know the sample size! Save your arrogant BS for someone who won’t call you out on it.
Really, name-dropping Dewan and Lichtman in an attempt at credibility is a common logical fallacy. And, I don’t care about your alleged resumé; everybody’s a PhD on the internet.
filihok
SDHD
“The more data points (sample size) you have, the fewer anomalies (luck) you woll have as a percentage of the total universe. Yes, it’s that simple.”
How is this not you saying that 162 > 16?
It is that simple, as long as you are measuring the same thing in the same population.
For example, if I’m trying to determine the distribution of colors of M&M candies, I’m going to get a better idea if I get a sample of 100 M&M’s than if I only get a sample of 10 M&M’s.
We both agree on that
But, measuring wins in the NFL compared to wins in MLB is not measuring the same population, correct?
So, I’ll ask again, why do you believe that
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season”
Again, use whatever math necessary in your answer and I’ll do my best to follow along.
“anybody who’s taken a class in statistics would know that R^2 is the Coefficient of Deviation”?
Are you sure about that?
filihok
SDHD
But you do know what that data is that we’re looking for
We are comparing wins in the NFL to wins in MLB, remember?
Here was my comment
“You’re aware that’s football is different then baseball, right?
In football a team’s record is far more telling than in baseball
We know this because the best football teams can win 95-100% of their games. The best baseball teams win 70% of their games.
Luck plays a bigger role in baseball than football.”
And your response
“No, filihok. … the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.”
So, now that we know what data we are looking for…
…you should be able to finally answer the question of why you think that the baseball having more games (162) than football (17 or 16) greatly diminishes the amount of luck over the course of the season.
And we know that it can’t be because 162 games is more than 17 because
1) you said that wasn’t the reason
2) baseball games and football games are two different populations so we can’t assume that the sample sizes for each is the same
So, what is it?
Again, feel free to use as much math as you need in your answer and I’ll let you know when my mind is blown
Deleted Userr
“I am a baseball coach and former scout and longtime baseball curmudgeon.”
I’ll take “Things that didn’t happen” for $500 Alex.
websoulsurfer
You STILL have refused to say what the data required in BASEBALL is.
You just posted the definition that you find when you do a Google search. Except you misspelled things. You can’t even cut and paste let alone do higher math required to prove or disprove stats like rWAR or bWAR.
I even gave you the websites to look at and the names of the people who came up with the stats you are trying to question for you to find out what THEY have shown you need in terms of data sample size to get relevant performance information in baseball. You refuse to even look.
You apparently cannot demonstrate even a single mathematical formula to demonstrate your claimed knowledge.
PLEASE, STFU Ryan.
websoulsurfer
Wow Ryan. You are trying to say that the guys who developed the stats you are trying to discount and have spent years perfecting, don’t know what data sample size that is necessary?
You are pathetic. Guess that is why I have muted you on all your other accounts.
Deleted Userr
See? Only Pads Fans accuses everyone who disagrees with him of being “Ryan.” And brags about muting people.
The hilarious part is you and Ryan seem to dislike each other based on prior threads.
websoulsurfer
AND Ryan pops up on his other account like clockwork. Glad I don’t have to read his BS anymore. I just see the notification that he commented. Thanks for the mute button MLBTR.
SDHotDawg
You are trying to find a comparison between two completely unrelated sets of data resulting from two vastly different actions. Then, you want to compare the the anomaly of “luck” between the two? You’re trying to make an illogical apples to oranges statistical projection (estimate) based on two disparate actions. Luck is an anomaly, it can be ESTIMATED to occur x times for every y number of data points, but that’s it.
In reading your points, you’re starting to get it. But sometimes you simply have to step back and say, “that action can’t be quantified.” Just like Bill James did when he was originally trying to come up with a catch-all “stat,” that is now known as WAR.
If all you want to do is compare WPct between the NFL and MLB, knock yourself out. Because that’s the only common metric. Anything else is just a unicorn hunt.
SDHotDawg
Ooh, the spelling defense! They’re typos, genius. I use my iPhone.
Somehow, you think the guys that came up with the “stats” proves … what? That their math is proper and relevant (it’s what some would call “tortured” in most cases)? I suspect you’re simply one of those people who thinks “it must be good, because it sounds really smart and I don’t understand it!”
Do you even understand that the required math fonts don’t work in this format? Secondly, I don’t consider you to be worth my time and effort.
SDHotDawg
@the legendary …
True. Ryan is/was a complete and total idiot. He once backed himself into a corner with his multiple screen names, while accusing me of the same. Well, Adam happened to be online, and he verified the IP addresses on the spot! WCR hid in embarrassment for a while after that! LOL!!
( I’ll have to check my old desktop files to see if I kept a screenshot of that thread!)
SDHotDawg
LOL!!
This is the same “websoulsurfer” that got himself banned from the old MLB forum and story comment boards!
Small world.
SDHotDawg
BTW, what does “the data REQUIRED in baseball” even mean? Can you be a little more vague?
SDHotDawg
In decades on multiple forums, I’ve only felt the need to mute one person. I think it’s cowardly, and a definite sign of not being able to handle “losing” a spirited debate. As much as I hate to admit it, we all get proven wrong sometimes. It happens. Opinions are different, and not always confined by the walls of fact or the meaning of “right or wrong.” But some folks just can’t handle it.
Deleted Userr
And websoulsurfer is accusing you of being Ryan now. Not the first time he has accused someone who hates him of being him. It reminds me of that Family Guy scene where Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both Fred Savage in disguise.
Only people I have muted are those who flood this board with incoherent/grammatically poor/completely irrelevant comments. So the padreforlife’s and michaelw’s of the world. I can handle someone disagreeing with me, even if they go to the ad hominems.
filihok
SDHD
We both are trying to compare wine/luck in football too wins/luck in baseball
I said that there was more luck in baseball and this was evident because the the lesser team in baseball beats the better team not often than that happens in football
You said that the larger sample size in baseball reduces the amount of luck compared to football
I’m still waiting for you to provide evidence to support that statement.
SDHotDawg
I came real close to muting WCR, but that’s because the guy was literally stalking me across the forums. Maybe “virtually is a better word?
SDHotDawg
No, actually you are. Team construction and lineups are totally different on a per game basis. The best you can do is attempt to define “luck” for each sport individually, but good luck with that. SABR-geeks have been trying to do that for a long time with zero success. Why? Because “luck” is — by definition — a statistical outlier; an anomaly. The best you can hope fore is to try and “predict” how many anomalies can be expected for a given sample size. But there is no way to make a legitimate mathematical comparison between to vastly different actions. None.
SDHotDawg
I can see where you’re coming from, because there are far more human interactions with the actual baseball on any given play, ergo more room for mistakes. But that’s not “luck.”
filihok
SDHD
No. You
Said, and I quote:
““No, filihok. … the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.”
If, you want to back off of that statement, go ahead
I’m calling “luck” anything that’s out of our ability to predict.
Take s coin flip, for example. We know that a fair coin will land in heads nearby 50% of the time and on trails nearby 50% of the time. And on the edge, almost never, but not never
However, if we knew the exact initial conditions, we could predict with much higher accuracy.
Or a hitter in baseball. We expect that they will get a hit in roughly 25% of their plate appearances. But not which ones.
And that a team that hits for a wOBA if X will be expected to score Y runs. But we don’t know if the solo home runs or grand slams. Nor do we know what the score will be when they happen.
That’s where the “luck” comes from. More grand slams, more runs, more wins. More solo shots, fewer runs, fewer wins.
The Padres have had poor sequencing luck this year. That’s led to fewer wins than would be expected given their overall performance
SDHotDawg
I’m not backing off of anything. Yes, larger sample sizes diminish the impact of luck. Common frikkin’s sense.
You can’t “predict” anything. That is also a fact. It’s ridiculous to even say so.
I’m starting to think you just enjoy arguing , even it it involves mathematical non-sequiturs, and fantasies about being able to “predict” anything.
Cheers
filihok
SDHD
“Yes, larger sample sizes diminish the impact of luck. Common frikkin’s sense.”
Of course. As I’ve already explicitly stated
However, an N of X for one population might be a sufficient sample while the same N of X might be an sufficient sample for another population.
You understand that basic concept, correct?
If you understand that, then why have you refused multiple times to explain why you believe that
“the much larger sample sizes in baseball greatly diminish the effect of “luck” over the course of a season.”
The floor is, again, yours. Again, feel free to use as much math as necessary in your response.
-still waiting, filihok
SDHotDawg
You keep contradicting yourself, moving the goal posts, and blatantly misrepresenting what’s already been said, so let me make this clear: I’m done with your puerile, illogical, meaningless argument for the sake of argument, and inability to comprehend the simplest of concepts.
Cheers
SDHotDawg
It just occurred to me… I seem to recall some other poster who would blatantly lie, make an incredibly ignorant claim, and ask for “proof” of something that was either never stated or already answered. On top of that, he had a tendency to stalk and troll.
Could it be? Are you?
filihok
SDHD
I’ve asked you the EXACT SAME question multiple times.
You’ve avoided answering it EVERY SINGLE TIME
Muted
SDHotDawg
Yeah, I know you have. It hasn’t been avoided, it’s been answered. Either you lack the comprehension and cognitive ability to understand, or you thrive on pretending to be what you’re not. (It’s a toss-up).
Like I said, someone else used to do the exact same thing to avoid admitting the flaws in their argument and dodge questions. It’s a pretty common abuse of logic by less cerebral people.
Again, prove you can “predict” the future. Use all the math you want, and stop avoiding the question.
ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Perksy
Who do you see as their closer next season?
websoulsurfer
Suarez.
Old timer 78
With ALL the Speculation and Misinformation being Provided by Baseball reporters,Who do you trust?
YourDreamGM
I blame ownership. To make enough $ to buy a team you would think you would be smart enough to not hand out some of the worst contracts in sports history. Preller may or probably wanted those players but ownership didn’t have to sign off. Preller builds a heck of a farm system and even made mostly ok and even good trades. Whoever was responsible for the contracts though should be fired.
websoulsurfer
What bad contracts? Why are you claiming they are bad?
Citizen1
I don’t 100% blame Preller or ownership for spending big on the padres after decades of trading away talent to other teams. However it would be a bold move to trade away scrubs like Soto and machado for players who want to win. Pitching isn’t the problem #3 in era. It’s the hitting, next to last in avg. It’s Nothing to do with bad luck. Overpaid don’t want to work.
I’m on the fence on Melvin. Did well
In Oakland with a younger group. This team needs a yankee manager type to manage to egos of millionaires playing baseball
Shawn W.
No Ohtani for the Padres, in that case.
SDHotDawg
They also had an epic collapse in 2019. Tingler wasn’t Preller’s first scapegoat.
Deleted Userr
Where you been?
You will notice from this thread that Pads Fans isn’t even trying to be subtle anymore about commenting from multiple accounts.
SDHotDawg
LOL! This year’s team quickly put me in an alcohol induced catatonic stupor which has persisted all summer. That, and the boredom of arguing with a growing number of belligerent folks who can only support their opinions with … well, belligerence.
Or, maybe I’ve just spent most of the season traveling to play golf and watch Padres games in different cities, which was a lot of fun!
SDHotDawg
I see that. The whole multiple screen names and accounts thing is so cowardly. It’s a sign of deep-seated insecurity.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Interesting. The whole conversation about Machado not signing without Hosmer seems to have been zapped.
For what it’s worth, Machado 100% signs without Hosmer.
SDHotDawg
I never understood the point of that argument. Of course, Machado signs without Hosmer!
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
You’re preaching to the choir pal. Talk to your buddy Pads Fans/websoulsurfer.
BaseballisLife
You day drinking again? Put down the bottle. Try facing reality without it. Go find an AA meeting. Get some help.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Why do you comment from Pads Fans, websoulsurfer and BaseballisLife all in the same thread?
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
And then it gets unzapped after I post a comment. It previously said at the top that 72 comments are hidden because I muted the authors but I have not a single person muted.
BaseballisLife
One of me is enough. Far too much for you apparently.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
You can’t possibly expect people to believe that anymore.
nosake
Stats are not the only thing that drive baseball. If it were true, we wouldn’t need 500 comments and counting, right?
Thornton Mellon
Wow these comments are wild, this has been a good read.
I’m an Orioles fan, that 2023 team is the Bizarro-Padres. I commend your organization for trying to spend for talent and getting top players. Orioles have an organization digging through every dumpster trying to strike gold with every cheap deal there is and trying to sell it like they know more than everyone else. Sometimes it works out (O’Hearn) and sometimes it doesn’t (Irvin).
We also live on the other side of the statistical coin this year and I understand why you’re frustrated. 30-16 in 1-run games, similar in 2-run games, 11-6 in extras, closing in on 100 wins and probably should be around 90. Unfortunately the “lying stat” which is the wins and losses is the only one that counts, probably the Orioles should have 8 less wins and the Padres 10 more. It all regresses to the mean over time and the Padres could win 10 more games in 2024 by keeping the same guys they have now..
Just remember that Kyle Gibson could win his last start and tie for the AL lead in wins, has more wins than Snell, and has a 4.86 ERA and 85 ERA+. That’s baseball. It’s ridiculous.
nosake
Just muted someone on this bloated thread and pared it 50%
filihok
Nosake
Mute is a great thing (except that now there is one fewer person around to call out that person’s BS). I just muted someone and now I have 147 hidden comments.
FTW
Deleted Userr
Test
SDHotDawg
B+
Deleted Userr
I was looking for a comment from this thread but half the comments were hidden and it told me they were hidden because I muted the comment authors. I don’t have that many people muted so I knew it must be a glitch. Commenting on the thread seems to fix the glitch.
SDHotDawg
It did that to me a couple of weeks ago. I assumed I accidentally hit the mute button, but there was no option to undo it, so I just moved on.