The Cardinals entered the year expected to compete for another NL Central title. Instead, they’re on track for their first 90-loss season in more than three decades. They’re going to make another push for contention this winter, with no secret about a forthcoming pursuit of rotation help.
Guaranteed Contracts
- Nolan Arenado, 3B: $109MM through 2027 (Rockies paying $5MM annually through 2025; deal includes deferred salary through 2041)
- Willson Contreras, C: $77.5MM through 2027 (including buyout of ’28 club option)
- Miles Mikolas, RHP: $32MM through 2025
- Paul Goldschmidt, 1B: $26MM through 2024
- Steven Matz, LHP: $24MM through 2025
- Giovanny Gallegos, RHP: $6MM through 2024 (including buyout of ’25 club option)
Option Decisions
- None
2024 financial commitments: $108MM
Total future commitments (not including deferrals): $264.5MM
Arbitration-Eligible Players
- Tyler O’Neill
- Tommy Edman
- Dakota Hudson
- Ryan Helsley
- Jacob Barnes
- JoJo Romero
- Andrew Knizner
- Dylan Carlson
- Jake Woodford
Non-tender candidates: Hudson, Barnes, Knizner, Woodford
Free Agents
- Adam Wainwright (retiring), Drew VerHagen
It didn’t take long to become clear the Cardinals weren’t going to meet preseason expectations. St. Louis started slowly, rebounded somewhat in May, then fell firmly out of the playoff picture with an 8-15 showing in June. They were positioned as deadline sellers by the All-Star Break.
That’s largely on account of a well below-average run prevention group. The club’s typically excellent defense regressed. Willson Contreras was briefly moved to designated hitter then returned to catcher in a bizarre saga early into the first season of his five-year free agent deal. Most concerning, the starting rotation simply wasn’t good enough to keep the Cardinals in games.
Adam Wainwright had the worst season of his career at age 41. The Cardinals understandably let him continue taking the ball in deference to his place in franchise history. He fortunately managed to hit the 200 win mark with a gem over the Brewers last week to close out his career. Wainwright’s contributions to the last two decades of Cardinal baseball are hard to overstate. He clearly didn’t have much left in the tank this season, though, meaning the Cards shouldn’t have much difficulty finding better production out of one their rotation spots.
They’ll need far more than to replace the outgoing Wainwright. St. Louis dealt impending free agents Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty at the deadline. President of baseball operations John Mozeliak said shortly thereafter that the club was hoping to fill all three vacated spots from outside the organization. They’d give looks to various younger hurlers to see if any would elevate their standing during the final six weeks. The expectation is nevertheless they’d need to add a trio of starters.
There’s an argument the Cardinals could use four new starting pitchers. Miles Mikolas is the one lock for a job. He’s miscast as a staff ace but has proven a very durable source of innings, starting 32+ games in four of the last five full seasons. He’s tallied 194 1/3 frames of 4.82 ERA ball this year. He’s had a rough second half, but he’ll get a chance to bounce back.
The rest of the group is uncertain. Steven Matz has underwhelmed in two seasons since signing a four-year free agent deal. The Cardinals kicked Matz to the bullpen for a spell midseason. He eventually returned to the rotation, turned in his best seven-start run as a Cardinal, then suffered a season-ending lat strain in mid-August. It would’ve been a lot easier to pencil him into next year’s rotation if he’d stayed healthy over the final six weeks.
St. Louis has otherwise cycled through pitchers who haven’t had much success at the MLB level. Matthew Liberatore, Zack Thompson and Drew Rom (acquired from the Orioles in the Flaherty trade) were all well-regarded prospects, to varying extents. Only Thompson has carried that over at the MLB level and that has mostly come in relief.
The Cards have given Thompson nine starts during the final couple months, during which he’s posted a 4.37 ERA with slightly better than average strikeout and walk rates. The former first-round pick has put the best case forward for a season-opening job out of that trio, yet he’ll be 26 in October and has all of 10 career major league starts. He’s probably not a lock either. Jake Woodford and Dakota Hudson have logged some innings without much success. Either could be non-tendered, with Hudson having a particularly tenuous hold on a roster spot heading into his third season of arbitration eligibility.
It’s clearly an insufficient group for a team hoping to return to contention. The Cards have never been huge free agent spenders, preferring to attack the trade market and re-sign the stars they acquire. They’ve yet to go past an $80MM guarantee for a free agent starter (Mike Leake), though they’ve notably been in the free agent bidding for some higher-profile names in the past (most notably, David Price. There’s a chance they set a new franchise record for free agent pitching investment this winter.
The Cardinals have roughly $108MM in guaranteed contracts for next season. The arbitration class will probably tack on a bit over $20MM. That’s still well shy of the $177MM range in which they opened the ’23 campaign. There’s room for a strike towards the upper end of the free agent market.
This winter’s class skews toward pitching. Beyond Shohei Ohtani (who won’t pitch next season), the rotation group is headlined by Blake Snell and NPB star Yoshinobu Yamamoto. That duo might wind up beyond the Cards’ spending range, but the next group of arms includes Montgomery, Aaron Nola, Sonny Gray and Eduardo Rodriguez (assuming he opts out of his deal with the Tigers). Montgomery and Nola are very likely to surpass nine figures, while Gray has a chance to do so. Any of that group would immediately be the best pitcher on the St. Louis staff. Rodriguez could beat the Leake guarantee as well.
Mozeliak and his front office will probably add a couple arms in free agency. Handing out the two biggest free agent guarantees for starters in franchise history in the same offseason might not be tenable. Looking further down the class, players like Seth Lugo, old friend Michael Wacha — if his options with the Padres are declined — and Kenta Maeda could offer stability. The Cards may prefer that to a rebound flier on Frankie Montas or Luis Severino, though they’d certainly have the opportunity to dangle a job to a riskier upside play if that’s a route they’d prefer.
Not all of the work has to be accomplished in free agency. The Cards were a team to watch at last summer’s deadline, with rumors of potential deals involving their young hitters to land a controllable starting pitcher. That didn’t materialize. The Cardinals were active, but their trades generally followed the same pattern: moving an impending free agent (Flaherty, Montgomery, Chris Stratton, Jordan Hicks, Paul DeJong) for upper minors talent, preferably pitching.
Speculation about dealing a big league position player could return. Former top prospect Dylan Carlson is the obvious candidate. He’d looked like the franchise center fielder after securing the position midway through the 2022 season. The switch-hitting Carlson hasn’t had the breakout offensive showing that many expected, however, settling in as a roughly league average bat over the past few years. Lars Nootbaar broke out late in ’22 to take hold of center field.
Rather than return Carlson to an everyday role in the corner outfield, they pushed him into more of a fourth outfield capacity. Top prospect Jordan Walker arrived at the major league level to man right field. Walker is already an above-average MLB hitter, though he’s one of the game’s worst defensive outfielders. Tyler O’Neill is a far better defender in left field. He has been up-and-down offensively while battling various injuries, but the Cards have maintained faith that he could recapture his 30-homer potential. They showed little interest in trading him and reportedly plan to give him the left field job to start his final year of club control.
That leaves St. Louis with a few decisions to make. They probably don’t want to consign the 21-year-old Walker to a full-time DH role. There’s no room for Walker on the corner infield, at least for one more season. Depending on how they handle second base, the Cards could need to keep the DH spot available for an infielder. They could retain Carlson as a fourth outfielder, likely passing on a chance to flip him for pitching talent in the process. Richie Palacios, acquired in a minor June trade with the Guardians, has played well enough in September to have a shot at sticking as a fourth outfielder.
Carlson is no longer going to return an impact controllable starter, but there’d still be interest — particularly in a thin market for center fielders. The Yankees expressed interest in Carlson at the deadline and could put Clarke Schmidt on the table, as a speculative possibility. Perhaps the Marlins are prepared to listen on 2021 All-Star Trevor Rogers after an injury-wrecked ’23 season. If the Cardinals hold Carlson, they could flip Alec Burleson on the heels of a down year. That’d mean selling low on a former top prospect with five years of remaining club control, though.
The middle infield is the other area where they could leverage their young talent in trade. Brendan Donovan and Nolan Gorman are very different players — Donovan is an excellent contact hitter, Gorman has potential 30+ homer power — but they’re each above-average MLB bats. Neither is a great defender at second base, but Gorman has improved at the position and Donovan can bounce around the diamond. Donovan missed most of the second half after undergoing flexor tendon surgery; he’s expected to be ready for Spring Training.
Each of Gorman and Donovan would have more trade value than Carlson. The Cardinals could keep both, rotating them between second base and designated hitter. Yet it’s possible they flip one for a controllable starting pitcher. Speculation about the Cardinals and Mariners lining up on a trade has abounded for months. Seattle certainly isn’t moving George Kirby, and they’d probably balk at dealing Logan Gilbert. They could offer Bryce Miller or Bryan Woo, though it’s debatable if that’s enough from the Cardinals’ perspective. The Marlins (Braxton Garrett) and Tigers (Reese Olson, Casey Mize, Sawyer Gipson-Long) could each float interesting young pitchers as part of a larger trade package.
Tommy Edman would generate a fair bit of interest himself. He’s a decent hitter who can seemingly play plus defense at every non-catching position. The Cardinals seem disinclined to move him given his defensive value, though they’ll surely receive some calls. It’s a dreadful free agent class for middle infield help, leaving teams like Detroit, Miami and the Giants without clear solutions at shortstop. Edman would be an upgrade for any of that trio.
That’d be an easier sell for St. Louis if top shortstop prospect Masyn Winn had hit the ground running. The 21-year-old has mustered only a .168/.233/.243 line in his first 33 big league contests. It doesn’t change his long-term outlook, since most players his age are at Double-A or below. Yet it suggests Winn is probably ticketed for Triple-A to start next season, which would leave Edman as the presumptive starting shortstop.
Nolan Arenado and Paul Goldschmidt will be back at the corner infield. Goldschmidt is going into the final season of the five-year extension he signed upon landing in St. Louis. If the Cardinals struggle early in the year, he’d be a major deadline trade chip. It’d be very surprising if they seriously entertain moving him during the offseason, however. Perhaps another team wants to take a flier on 26-year-old Luken Baker, who is blocked by Goldschmidt but raked at a .334/.439/.720 clip in Triple-A this season.
23-year-old catcher Iván Herrera also had a great Triple-A showing, hitting .297/.451/.500 with 10 longballs in 375 trips to the plate. It’s his second consecutive above-average performance at the top minor league level. He’ll be out of options next year and surely won’t be placed on waivers. Either the Cardinals keep Herrera in the majors or they trade him, but the signing of Contreras muddies Herrera’s path to a regular role.
The Cards could flip or non-tender Andrew Knizner if they wanted to carry Herrera as Contreras’ backup. Herrera would have quite a bit more appeal than Knizner on the trade market, with teams like Miami (again), Tampa Bay and Boston among possible matches.
Deadline trade speculation extended to the bullpen. There was little incentive to hold impending free agents Hicks and Stratton. Giovanny Gallegos and Ryan Helsley were loosely floated in rumors. Helsley was on the injured list at the time, while Gallegos had just signed an extension last October. It’s not surprising no deal came together. While opposing clubs could call again on either, the Cardinals would probably prefer to retain two of their better late-game arms. Alongside southpaw JoJo Romero, that duo should assume high-leverage roles.
With Stratton and Hicks gone and long reliever Drew VerHagen hitting free agency, it’s likely St. Louis will add one or two relievers to the mix. That could include their first notable free agent bullpen pickup since they signed Andrew Miller in advance of the 2019 season, even if the rotation is the higher priority.
It looks like a winter with a fair bit of roster turnover. That doesn’t appear to extend to the top non-playing personnel. Oliver Marmol will be back for a third season as manager. Mozeliak — the sport’s second-longest tenured front office head — doesn’t seem to be in any jeopardy after a decade and a half of mostly successful ball. Mozeliak implied last offseason that he could hand the reigns to longtime lieutenant Michael Girsch once his contract expires after the 2025 season.
That’s a longer-term consideration. For now, the focus for Mozeliak, Girsch and Marmol is on quickly righting the ship after a disastrous season. The Cardinals aren’t accustomed to looking up at the rest of the division. They’ll try to ensure this offseason that it doesn’t happen again.
In conjunction with this post, Anthony Franco held a Cardinals-centric chat on 9-29-23. Click here to view the transcript.
Big whiffa
Marlins should have sold high on alcantara and sent him back to stl for walker prior to last season.
JoeBrady
A healthy Alcantara is worth twice what Walker is.
Riontyler
As a cardinals fan, I wouldn’t be upset with that. Sandy is a work horse and TJ isn’t really concerning as I’m sure he will continue to prove his worth. Losing walker would suck but as we seen this season, if your rotation is a dumpster fire the motivation of everything else goes in the dumpster. You have a pitcher holding the other team to 1 run or 2 after 6-7 innings bats usually are Hitting better. With our current management, it’s really hard to have faith in next season so it’s whatever.
TheStevilEmpire1
They’re not moving Walker, he still has incredible upside and he’s affordable for the next 5 to 6 years. They don’t want to make the same mistake they did with Arozrena or Adolis Garcia.
Four4fore
Does Edman and Herrera get you Cabrerra?
Seamaholic
Doubt it. Young healthy controllable and dominant (some of the time anyway) starting pitchers are the white whale of mlb trades. If the Marlins made him available, lots of teams would beat that offer.
Ray Lankford
Should be close, add in one of Burleson/O’Neill and maybe McGreevy/Graceffo and both teams should do it.
I don’t like trading Herrera and I love Edman, but to get a solid #2 pitcher for several years you do it… at least they have enough catching depth in the minors in Crooks and Bernal that they have a decent succession plan for the end of Contreras’s contract, ETA 2025 optimistically.
Four4fore
Ray you were my favorite Cardinal for a long time, I think you’re right about the value needed, just throwing things out there.
CujoMarlin
Ray Lankford running over Darren Dalton at home plate was as good as it gets.
Troy Percival's iPad
Trading Goldschmidt would solve a lot more problems than St Louis is willing to admit since everyone in St Louis from the front office to the fans think Brendan Donovan is worth Logan Gilbert and a 10-15 prospect for whatever reason
RobblyDobs
No it wouldn’t, as Goldy has no surplus value. So you get nothing back.
Lanidrac
Besides, even a declining Goldshmidt is still more valuable to the 2024 team than anything you could get back for him in a trade. Trading him would only make sense if they weren’t planning to contend again as early as next season.
JoeBrady
The Cards should’ve traded Arenado & Goldschmidt while they had the chance. They have at least 9 guys that decent+ position players. They might not be as good as Arenado & Goldy, but they also don’t cost $61M and will be 33 & 36 next season.
That $61M could’ve gone a long way towards replacing their rotation, and they might’ve scored a couple of decent, fringy top-100-125 prospects
Seamaholic
Exactly. It was hard to resist, obviously, but the Arenado trade was actually a sizable mistake. They had not one but TWO ultra high end 3B prospects at the time in Gorman and Walker, and now they’re both playing out of position in a sea of position players looking for playing time. I suspect they were planning on trading one or both for pitching, but underestimated how hard the market for controllable SP’s is for buyers.
JoeBrady
in a sea of position players looking for playing time.
=========================
That was my thinking in July. Without much thinking, it seemed reasonable to have a lineup that something like:
C-Contreras
1B-Walker
2B-Donovan
SS-Edman
3B-Gorman
LF-Carlson
CF-Nootbar
RF-O’Neill
DH-Burleson
Fit Winn in there someplace.
I’m not doing much more than finding slots for players, so they could switched, but keeping both Arenado & Goldie only means a couple of decent players will be relegated to the bench.
Lanidrac
The Arenado trade was one of the most lopsided (in favor of the Cardinals) in recent memory! He’ll likely be the best player on the team next season and still earning most of that really high salary of his. You don’t trade away those kinds of guys when you’re still trying to compete. It’s the lesser stars like Edman whose production can be more easily replaced that you look to trade.
Likewise, Goldschmidt is still more valuable for the 2024 team to contend than he would to be traded.
Also, that outfield is all mixed up, as the correct configuration between those 3 is obviously O’Neill in LF, Carlson in CF, and Nootbaar in RF.
Appalachian_Outlaw
Landirac, it really depends on if you can afford to build a pitching staff, or not. Arenado and Goldschmidt absolutely do help you contend, but not without pitching. Obviously the Cards aren’t going to be in the Ohtani bidding, but would trading one of Arenado or Goldschmidt put them in a better position to bid on a player such as Snell? I’d say Snell and Gorman would make them more competitive than Arenado alone.
Lanidrac
Then it’s a good thing the Cardinals have enough payroll room and trade capital that combined can rebuild the pitching staff nicely while still paying Arenado and Goldy.
Meanwhile, they can trade either Donovan or Edman to play Gorman at 2B more often (where his defense has really improved) alongside Arenado.
l9ydodger
Cardinals F.O. should rethink trading Arenado this winter. He didn’t seem to happy about how the season went & the direction of the team, IMO. If the Cardinals falter again next year, he’ll really be discontented. He wants to play in the postseason, explore what you could get from the Dodgers for him. He is a SOCAL boy!
Jake1972
1. Get rid of Wilson C.!
As long as you have him as your daily catcher your pitching will suffer!
2. Trade every valuable piece and rebuild!
It has to happen even to the Red Birds!
Armaments216
No team is taking that Contreras contract. Best bet is to just ride it out. But still give Herrera plenty of opportunities to become the primary catcher.
Domingo111
It was a big mistake to go into the season with that underpowered pitch to contact staff despite the shift ban which meant contact pitchers would be hurt.
Mozeliak must have known that but he is very afraid of parting with prospects or young major leaguers. That has some positives as it means the cards usually are never really bad (except this year) but it also means they are usually an 85-88 win team which isn’t equipped to fight the dodgers or braves.
He probably calls other GMs and asks for a pitcher and then the other guys asks can I have nootbar Mo: I don’t know I really like him, other guy: ok, I understand, can I get Donovan and your 12th and 13th prospect? Mo: I don’t know I like Donovan and my 12 th prospect has a good chase rate, maybe he becomes great…
Mo likes all his players and probably finds for anyone a reason why he can’t part with him. That is good because he doesn’t waste assets but it also means he never gets the big guys (except for Goldy and arendo -but the latter was more dumped for salary reasons).
Mo isn’t terrible but I feel he plays it a bit too safe in trades but also in the player type he gets, pitchers are always those ” throws strikes but underwhelming stuff and hitters are those good plate discipline but probably only hits 15 bombs so he has a lot of depth of like average guys (1.5 to 2.5 war) but few home grown stars.
Maybe walker can be that guy.
FlahertyFour
Its not that he plays safe, when he does make a trade, its usually awful (sans Goldy and Nado). He used to make good trades, but everyone feels like their models are old. We’d have minuscule issues right now if hed held Aroz, Gallen, and Sandy.
bassrun
Add Adolis to that pile. And on the acquisition side there’s Leake, Andrew Miller, Liberatore, Ozuna, and the list goes on and on. Lousy talent evaluation, and a penchant for bottom feeding. Cheapskate owner. I just finish reading David Halberstam’s “October 1964,” and Gussie Busch was another cheapskate owner. Gussie thought the team was nothing but an advertising gimmick for beer. DeWitt thinks it’s all about Ballpark Village and real estate.
Daryl Pauley
Right new pitchers sounds like a reasonable number to me, 3 starters,5 relievers. With the holdovers we might have a viable pitching staff as long as we are ready to deal at the trade deadline.
steve2345 2
All I’m reading here is the Cardinals don’t know how to develop players. So many “top” prospects and almost all of them haven’t broken out at the MLB level.
bassrun
I lay the blame at the feet of the big league coaching staff and manager. Talented prospects seem to lose their punch once they arrive in St. Louis. And veterans forget about fundamental skills, such as defense and baserunning. The Contreras and O’Neill debacles tell you all you need to know about Marmol’s motivational and communication skills.
CujoMarlin
bassrun- yes, 100%. Something I noticed is what you mention here. Their prospoects never come up and excel. They wait and wait and wait for years to see if they are going to be impactful. That feels different than in the past and different from other organizations today. This is a foundational issue with their team. I think it is a bigger issue with position players than pitchers.
Ray Lankford
Carlson never had good statcast numbers in the minors, he was overhyped.
O’Neill was always a boom or bust question mark but being incredibly fragile has derailed his career.
Dont’ know what this writer’s talking about but Burleson was never a good prospect, he had worse minor league numbers than Matt Adams. Overhyped.
Who else have they failed to develop? Edman, Donovan and Noot all came out of nowhere. Walker was promoted too soon and in any case both he and Winn are on track to be productive MLBers at the age of 22 next year. Unless you’re comparing them to ATL they’re doing just fine with position players.
Now if you’re talking about pitching of course you have a point, their pitching development has been crap for years. Even if they hadn’t embarrassed themselves by trading Alcantara/Gallen in the same deal I’m highly skeptical either would have turned out as good for the Cards as they did on their current teams.
Lanidrac
Those are only the bad examples. There have also been plenty of good examples like Donovan, Nootbaar, Gorman, Helsley, and Walker (offensively, at least)..
Domingo111
I think they did a good job developing hitters,it is just that many of those were kinda limited ceiling, high floor guys.
Pitching wasn’t great though.
Butter Biscuits
I can see the Dodgers parting with some pitching for Tommy Edman
l9ydodger
Edman & Arenado for Knack, Cartaya, Maddux Bruns.
marinersblue96
As a M’s fan wouldn’t even consider moving Miller or Woo unless Walker was part of the deal. Young controllable arms that miss bats, Seattle’s development of SP and RP is elite.
eatonculo
Yeah, that’s why I don’t think the Cardinals will make that kind of deal.
Walker, Noot, Gorman, and Winn aren’t going anywhere.
Ray Lankford
That’s a hilarious demand for a #3/#4 starter. Seattle would be lucky to get a Walker package for Gilbert.
marinersblue96
Miller would be the #1 SP for St. Louis. And it really isn’t debatable.
letsholdemandgohome
So far just a lot of talk. I will believe it when I see it. They were supposed to really increase payroll last off season and all they did was sign Contreas.
They will more than likely sign one semi decent pitcher and then bring up pitchers from Double AA and Triple AAA to save $$$ on payroll. When you’re selling out almost all home games, the urgency is not there.
Ray Lankford
They have $40M to spend in order to catch up to this year’s payroll. I think BDW is smart enough to calculate how badly spending less money in 2024 than on their 90-loss team will affect ticket sales.
Hard to spend $40M on pitching without getting at least a Montgomery-tier starter.
Bob Ivy Jr
I think the Cardinals should re-acquire Jordan Montgomery. I also believe they will try to go after Aaron Nola &/or Blake Snell, but I think it will be an over-payment and out of their comfort zone.I feel they will go more towards Nola before Snell. I am on the fence if they should also bring back Jordan Hicks.
Ray Lankford
Montgomery would not be a bad sign but only if they trade for a better pitcher like Gilbert\Castillo\Luzardo\Cabrera\Skubal\Cease. Monty can’t be the best pitcher they acquire or their 2024 stands to be just as disappointing as this year.
I think there’s zero chance they sign Snell, nor should they. He just had a career year and can only go downhill, very little chance he comes close to earning his contract.
Yamamoto otoh I think they should break the bank for. Not that they will, they just should. If I’m them I’m going after one of Yamamoto, Nola and Monty, in that order. If you get one of the first two then you trade for a #3 like Bryan Woo or Braxton Garrett.
Slider_withcheese
Signing or trading for three starters would turn this year’s 90(and counting) loss team into an 85 loss team. Firing the manager, you’re around 80. Firing the archaic front office and brining in someone with fresh ideas might get them to .500 by 2030.
O’Neil -lowest trade value of his career. Bust
Carlson- lowest trade value of his career. Bust
Nootbar- most overrated player in mlb. 4th OF on a decent team
Walker- a number 6 hitter with terrible defense
Nolan A -already a decline and only going to get worse
Wynn- all signs point to bust
Gorman- best player they have
Edman/Donovan- interchangeable and token scrappy white guys that the cardinals must have each year to satisfy the conservative Christian base.
Goldschmidt- heavy decline. Balding even.
Contreras- an ambassador on how to play the game. Potential red jacket
Starters- lol
Pen – lol
Bench- blind squirrels
AAA positional prospects – ZERO
AAA pitching- lol. Hence the need for starters.
mrperkins
Hey, the Cards had lots of AAA pitching. Problem was it was on the big league club.
Binnington50
Is it hard for you, being the biggest moron on this app/site? Actually, I guess it’s not since you do it so well.
Jonny5
Do you even have team you root for? All I ever see you doing is bashing the cardinals and a few other teams. Is that all you have to offer? Truly pathetic.
Lanidrac
Let me correct you:
The front office is still excellent and not archaic at all. The jury is still out on Marmol after one really good season and one really bad season.
O’Neill – Still a lot more trade value than he had before he broke out in 2021. Is still a very good player with great defense when healthy and not playing through injuries.
Carlson – Technically true, but he’s still an excellent defensive CF who kills lefties, a short-side platoon player at worst.
Nootbaar – Properly rated as a nice, young star, easily a starting outfielder on almost any team.
Walker – Currently a #5 hitter with lousy defense but with the potential to be a superstar hitter with improving defense and a good arm who could still be the primary DH if necessary
Arenado – Barely in decline at all, played through a bad back in the 2nd half, and he’s gotten past his poor defense from the first half, likely the best overall player on the team next year
Winn – Do you have any idea who many MLB stars sucked during their first month in the Majors?! He’s still a top prospect with the potential to be a very good player.
Gorman – 2nd or 3rd best position player they have after Arenado and maybe Goldschmidt
Edman/Donovan – Fair enough, but Donovan is a better hitter, while Edman is a better defender and baserunner but much closer to free agency
Goldschidt – In a reasonable decline that still makes him one of the best overall players on the team
Contreras – Is this sarcasm? Anyway, still one of the best hitters on the team and has a good throwing arm
Starters – Mikolas is OK, Matz was good for a while, and Thompson has been decent in the Majors despite sucking in AAA, but otherwise, yes, LOL
Bullpen – Other than Helsley and Romero, absolutely LOL
Bench – The best they’ve had in years (until all the injuries piled up lately) with multiple guys getting part-time work who would be starters on other teams
AAA positional prospects: Winn technically still qualifies
AAA pitching – Hence, and the jury is still out on a few guys but not looking good for them so far
Slider_withcheese
I’m trying to figure out how that fluff piece you wrote matches up with a team that just lost 90 games.
Chad623
Notice how you ignored the guy asking what your favorite team is. Coward.
Lanidrac
Carlson is still the Cardinals’ best defensive center fielder. Nootbaar only got more playing time in CF this year due to being a much better hitter this year with Carlson demoted to a short-side platoon role. However, whenever Carlson does start, he plays CF.
Ray Lankford
Just cause that’s true doesn’t mean the Marmol & Co. see it that way… and if they don’t then Carlson is more valuable in trade than on the club.
Either way it’s hard to say who is better defensively between Carlson and Edman.
Lanidrac
Considering that Carlson DID play CF almost every time he started, even during the brief periods when he and Edman were both healthy, then yes, Marmol and Co. do see it that way.
I agree that Carlson is one of their most likely trade chips. I’m just pointing out that the article is wrong about Nootbaar supplanting Carlson in CF and implying that Carlson would be in a corner spot if he had hit better.
Ray Lankford
With the repeatedly bizarre and inexplicable lineup/position decisions Marmol made throughout the season I don’t know how you can be nearly that confident about who’s right and wrong on what they’re intending for 2024. They started the season with Carlson as 5th OF and O’Neill in CF.
I think they trade one of O’Neill/Carlson and one of Edman/Carlson… that makes Carlson the most likely trade candidate on the team imo.
Lanidrac
Yes, that O’Neill in CF experiment was a mistake, but they did quickly abandon it.
Carlson started out that way because he had trouble hitting righties last year as well, and they wanted to see what they had with Burleson and Walker. Burleson eventually lost playing time and became a 4th outfielder, while Walker was demoted for 2 months. Yet Carlson still couldn’t hit righties even when given more playing time, so he was demoted back to a short-side platoon role but one who played CF when he did start. There was nothing bizarre about any of that, save for giving Walker more time in RF (rather than DH) than was reasonable.
Guess what, Marmol will be back as manager next year, so there’s no reason he won’t continue to play Carlson in CF (when he does play) if he isn’t traded.
Optimistic M's Guy
I could definately see the M’s working a deal with them this winter. We have boatloads of pitching and they have hitters at positions we need. Lol wouldn’t be surprised to see a Marco and Woo going to them. Would fill 2 spots in their rotation and we can get 1 or 2 decent hitters back. Oneill and Carleson? Walker?
mikejoann6
O’Neill for Marco Gonzales would be interesting, a reversal of the original trade in 2017.
Rantucky
I would like to see the Cards trade for Robbie Ray. That way it costs the Cards only money and the M’s can spend that on their biggest need.
TheStevilEmpire1
The truth is that the Cardinals are going to have to shell out some dollars this winter AND make trades from the surplus positions to fix their problems.
If Rodriguez opts out (which seems likely) then he will be highly pursued. Sonny Gray would be a good fit as well. Bring those guys on with Mikolas, Thompson, and the winner of a spring training battle for the 5th spot (Graceffo maybe).
They could also use 2 or 3 good middle relievers as well. Personally, I think they should move ONeill and Carlson if there’s any takers to get some bullpen depth.
If 2024 started today, I think the depth chart looks something like this:
C – Herrera, Knizner, Contreras
1B- Goldscmidt, Burleson
2B- Gorman, Winn
SS- Edman, Winn
3B- Arenado, Gorman
LF- Donovan, Burleson
CF- Nootbaar, Palacios
RF- Walker, Palacios
DH- Contreras
l9ydodger
So how did you get the 2 or 3 starting pitchers and 2 or 3 bullpen pieces you need? You haven’t traded anyone of value to get equal or above value.
DonOsbourne
I was going to question the logic of non-tendering Jake Woodford. Never mind. Just never mind.
jimmyz
To me the three biggest red flags that a team can have that shows it needs to start tearing down the roster and rebuild before it’s too late are to have no pitching, to have no prospects of note in the upper minors and to have your best players currently on the roster be aging vets on market price or worse contracts. The Cards check all three boxes. They’re in a slightly better position than other teams that more obviously need to rebuild due to the potential of Gorman, Walker, nootbaar, edman and Winn possibly becoming a solid core to build around but they’re all going to be hitting free agency around the same time in 3-5 years so best case scenario they all ball out and half of them leave for more money elsewhere anyway. Mo should be dealing on the trade market this winter, not buying.
meangreandancingmachine
My prediction of what the 2024 offense will look like. I believe a vast majority of offseason will be focused on rotation and bullpen. Trades will be done with a few offensive players to “shore up” spots in the line-up and bench. Based on below .200 average, I believe Winn starts the season in Memphis.
C = Willson Contreras
1B -Paul Goldschmidt
2B – Nolan Gorman
3B – Nolan Arenado
SS – Tommy Edman
LF – Tyler O’Neill
CF – Lars Nootbaar
RF – Jordan Walker
DH – Alec Burleson
Bench: Ivan Herrera; Richie Palacios; Luken Baker; Cesar Prieto
Trade: Dylan Carlson and Brendan Donovan
AAA: Masyn Winn
westcasey
I thought the manager sabotaged the team early in O’Neill and Contreras case.
The front office gagged on trading anyone to acquire any pitching.
Lousy job by Manager, lousy job by front office. Most blame right there.
Waino debacle spiraled and again they didn’t handle that circumstance either. Very Poor.
I have very little faith currently in management to make good trade/signings.
Show Me state…well,Show Me