The Red Sox announced to reporters, including Christopher Smith of MassLive, that outfielder Jarren Duran will have season-ending turf toe surgery tomorrow. Duran is already on the 10-day injured list but will be transferred to the 60-day version whenever the Sox needs his roster spot. Manager Alex Cora said they expect him to be back by Spring Training, per Jen McCaffrey of The Athletic.
Duran, 26, suffered the injury when scaling the wall at Yankee Stadium, attempting to reach a home run ball hit by Gleyber Torres. He was placed on the injured list a week ago with the Sox describing his injury as a left great toe sprain. It seems the injury is significant enough that he’ll have to go under the knife and won’t be able to come back this year.
It’s an unfortunately sour end to a nice breakout season for the outfielder. He had gotten into 91 games over 2021 and 2022 but struck out in 30.7% of his 335 plate appearances. His .219/.269/.354 batting line translated to a wRC+ of 67, indicating he was 33% below league average in that time. That put him behind players like Adam Duvall and Raimel Tapia on the depth chart and Duran started the season at Triple-A.
But Duvall’s injury absence and Tapia’s struggles opened a path for Duran that he ran with. He was recalled in mid-April and went on to hit .295/.346/.482 for a wRC+ of 120. His 24.9% strikeout rate is still above average but a significant improvement over his own previous work. The reviews on his glovework were mixed, with -5 Defensive Runs Saved but Ultimate Zone Rating grading him just below par at -0.6 and Outs Above Average having him as breaking even. He also stole 24 bases while getting caught just twice. That will now go down as the totality of this 2023 work, as he won’t be returning. It’s a tough loss for the Sox, who are now 5.5 games out of a playoff spot with just over a month left in the season.
Going forward, Duran still has five years of club control remaining and seems to have increased his chances of being a viable long-term solution in center. Tapia is no longer on the team and Duvall is set to become a free agent at season’s end, though he’ll likely continue manning center for the time being. Prospects Wilyer Abreu and Ceddanne Rafaela could also be in the mix, as they both have recently been promoted, though they will each go into 2024 with less experience that Duran.
Zoinks!
Damn. He’s been one of my favorite Red Sox since even before he made his debut. I really hope he can come back next year and reclaim the spot he had carved out for himself this season
Terrible way for an otherwise solid “breakout” season for Duran to end. Duvall and Rafaela manning CF the rest of the season i imagine
And Abreu.
Toe injuries always sound innocent, but they have a tendency to take players out of action for months, with or without surgery. My guess is Judge will require surgery too. I have both on my fantasy team. Hopefully I’m not the toe jinx!
Article somewhere on his balls in play for hits % being so high. no wonder ever see this guy hit ball on the ground and wonder, nor should be for anyone who sees him and his hustle, where probably half his 34 2b’s are singles to most other players.
Wheels are his game and THE difference maker, only this isn’t just some slap hitting Billy Hamilton/Omar Moreno clone with zilcho power.. he’s powerfully built and can go deep anywhere. “could” wind up being a true star type player, but have to wait until next year and see if can repeat his ’23 season.
You do know you can look up that stuff, right?
Here you go. baseball-reference.com/players/d/duranja01-bat.sht…
John – That’s just another reason why BABIP is a crap stat. People look at it when it’s high and automatically think it’s all luck. But there is nothing “lucky” about Duran using his speed to boost his offensive stats.
Fever Pitch Guy
That’s just another reason why BABIP is a crap stat. People look at it when it’s high and automatically think it’s all luck. But there is nothing “lucky” about Duran using his speed to boost his offensive stats.
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Dalbec 2020 debut
80AB, 42.4%K!!!, 10.9%BB, .394 Babip!!!, +148Wrc – it talks about that Dalbec very success in a little selection.
Was Dalbek lucky or did he use his wheels?
Bogie – Most big strong powerful hitters will have an inflated BABIP because when they do make contact they hit the ball very hard. Yes, when they strike out over 40% of the time that means they stinky poo poo.
Fever – Do you know that Dalbec’s OPS+ and OPS for his career are higher than nearly EVERY player in the Red Sox starting line-up now that JD, Bogey, Mookie and Benny are gone?
Better than Kiki, Arroyo? YEP Better than Casas until August. Duvall? It’s close. Duvall’s OPS 769 Dalbec .750 OPS+ Duvall 101 Dalbec 100.
Verdugo .774 and 108. is higher just like Devers is higher. Trevor Story for his career is higher but for his time in Boston it’s lower. This is exactly why the team struggles to play .500 baseball!! Dalbec is considered a slug by many guys on this site but he’s only behind Devers, Yoshida, Verdugo (slightly ahead) and Casas in the last month. All the churn guys aren’t as good as he is from an OPS/OPS+ perspective. So if you trash him you should trash all the hitters on the team not named Devers, Yoshida, Casas and Verdugo.
FYI…Dalbec’s second half in 2021 was 61 games with OPS of .955.and sOPS+ of 153 shows he has the talent to make it in the MLB but he just needs to perform consistently and that can be blamed on the poor handling of his career. Promoted too early then not allowed to fail in 2022 due to Bloom being on the hot seat for being so bad for his first 3 straight years.. I really hope someone gets him and gives him a chance with a good hitting instructor. Maybe LAD can pick him up and he can spend time with JD’s guy.
Tough break but BRAVO to Duran for fighting through the adversity of being called up too early and failing miserably just to return to prove everyone wrong that didn’t believe in him!!
Jarren I salute you on a great 2023 season and your incredible comeback!! Great job.
Great post and I completely agree!
Duran did exactly what Casas should have done. Went down to Wooster, worked on his game, and got called up when he was ready.
Casas has raked in the 2nd half. Clearly he didn’t need to be sent down
bam – You’re missing the point. He should have worked on his game in Wooster, not in Boston where he cost the team many games.
Fever – It’s funny. The old school thinking has always been let the player dominate at AAA before you promote him, then if he struggles drop him back to AAA to work on what’s going wrong then return him to the MLB a more complete player. I believe that is the philosophy you support and it’s been a standard approach to player development for decades.
The exception to the rule happens in the Boston organization when the GM wants to prove something with a player or the owners want to prove something with a player. In the case, of Devers he was a representative of the Dominican Republic Baseball Academy and was to be the heir apparent to Big Papi so Boston could establish a pipeline from the prestigious DR baseball academy. Rather than sending him down they let him play while batting .240 and making errors every 5 games. Casas got a similar treatment and was allowed to stay in the majors as the team hovered around .500 all season.
Is there only one right way to do it? No. Could leaving a player in the majors to fail for a long period of time risky? Absolutely. In the case of Casas, it seems to have worked out ok but it was risky and you are right that the smart approach historically has been send him down and make him succeed at the AAA level before bringing him back.
Bloom took a risk leaving him in the majors but things have worked out so a bullet was avoided. Fundamentally, however, Fever you are right that development should happen in the minors..
Too early? He was almost 25 yrs old when he made his debut. He’s a fourth outfielder at best. Poor instincts in the outfield and unbelievably lucky on balls batted in play this year. I wish him the best, but he’ll be gone within a couple of years.
Chris – Are you talking about Duran or Verdugo? Your description more closely fits Verdugo’s defense than a couple of early mistakes by Duran.
There are no assurances in baseball but Duran did show a set of skills we haven’t had in CF for a long time. He’s fast, has a decent glove and he can hit. The hit part has been missing since JBJ took over CF years ago. I’m rooting for him to make it because the team needs speed and he seems to have a nice combination of speed and power. Time will tell.
Chris – Do you not know a hitter with speed can beat out basehits that usually would be outs?
Do you not know a hitter with speed forces infielders to rush their throw, creating more base hit opportunities?
Do you not know a hitter with speed on the basepaths will distract the pitcher so much that the guy at the plate will benefit with better pitches?
So many things that can be learned without the use of BABIP.
How is it that the Yankees are saying that Judge can’t fix his toe with surgery but Duran can?
Different types of injuries.
They both have sprained toes
Same exact injury but ones having surgery. Duran must be getting his PIP up for the insurance claim.
There’s something about climbing the wall at Yankee Stadium. Both Duran and Stone Garrett ended up with season-ending injuries.
Duran forgot he wasn’t playing at Fenway. He was jumping up trying to climb on the ladder and it wasn’t there.
Remove the Yankee Stadium wall and replace with yellow tape so players won’t have season ending injuries
What’s a turf toe? Does Fenway have turf?
Turf toe is a sprain of the great toe.
Turf toe sucks. Hurts and tends to not get better. Hoping this young gun can overcome and have a great career.
Bloom can throw the fans a bone by signing Hunter Renfroe for the rest of the year. God knows there were a truckload of complaints when they dealt him, and rightfully so.
Hunter Renfroe isn’t that great and certainly not the reason we have lost so many games.
I get it. It was a bad trade but move on already. Hunter Renfroe doesn’t get you a winning season.
They should sign 2 of 3 ….Matt Moore, Reynoldo Lopez and Giolito. Also look at Clevinger from Chisox….. If they are serious about trying to make the playoffs….. proove it.
Good luck with that… I can’t tell if you’re serious or sarcastic.
But then again… Cora would just have more guys to misuse out of the Bull Pen.
Astros announcers were asking last night… what the heck is he doing….. MLB Network today were ripping him big time.
Doom….. A little Sarcasm…. but I would bring in Giolito….. work with him and see if signing the free agent to be would be worth the risk.
Doom – Have you looked at what Clevinger has been doing lately?
He’s 32 and has a career 3.38 ERA. He had ONE bad year in 2022.
In 2023 he’s he’s thrown 100 innings for the bad CWS with an era of 3.32. Why not grab him and sign him for depth in 2024? He’s making $8MM with a $12MM mutual option for 2024 with Chicago so offer him $10MM and he’s better than Kluber and so many of the other clowns Bloom has brought in during his four year reign of terror.
I like the guy as a back of the rotation inexpensive SP.
I like Clevinger. He’s a solid pitcher but he can’t do much for us this year and 2024 is no guarantee.
My response was mostly in reference to three players all being named and signed and helping us get to the postseason. That’s unrealistic.
Doom – Agreed. The post season is not going to happen and we all realized that at different times. I gave up hope when Bogey, JD and Nate were let go and maybe even when Mookie was let go.
The talent level since Feb 2020 has never been high enough to be competitive for a Division Championship let alone a run at a ring so until the talent level significantly improves division titles and rings are off the table.
The players released do have talent to help other teams so it should be fun to see who jumps on these opportunities. I still can’t understand why the commissioner isn’t intervening considering the date and the potential impact of these releases. This should trigger a new rule about releasing players late in the year.
I hope he ends up ok. Toe injuries tend to have lasting effects. Tough tough break for a guy who fought so hard to get back up to the bigs.
Man he as a lot of doubles!
Speed will turn singles into doubles
I’m glad someone brought up today’s dumping of players. It’s not like the guys cut were slugs, there are a lot of viable players that can improve the bottom of a 25 man roster for free. I can’t believe the commissioner hasn’t stepped in and said no to it. Wait, ok I can believe it because he’s worthless but these moves could change the playoff season without adding significantly to any of the teams dumping the players. So why allow it. Let those players go in a month instead.
Sox fans is Jarren Duran the starting Centerfielder for the near future?
I believe so … unless Fred Lynn walks through the door and he’s 94… seriously I see him moving to left field in future/ yoshi to dh and raffy to first( flip if you like)
I would say no. Duran should be the left fielder with Rafaela manning center and Yoshida a DH. Rafaela is the far superior defender to Duran. I think they will find a way to get both those guys in the lineup next year unless one of them is moved for pitching this off-season.
The real problem for Boston is Yoshida and Devers. These guys are both clearly DH’s. Devers is absolutely killing his pitchers with extra pitches due to abysmal defensive play at third but I’m guessing they will trot him out there again next year so they need to DH Yoshida and let the kids play in the outfield. The defense in the outfield would be elite. It’s a real problem for Boston though because Devers and Yoshida are clearly terrible defensively one of them has to DH.
Bruin1012 – I’m curious. Which player hurts the team more defensively?
Devers has 17 errors in 306 total chances
Yoshida has 3 errors in 108 total chances
I think Yoshida is a DH because his fielding isn’t good but since Boston has Devers who is far worse defensively wouldn’t it be better to put Devers at DH and leave Yoshida in left field. Also, Rafaela to me makes more sense in RF. Many people think it’s the toughest field to defend in Fenway so if you believe Rafaela is better than Duran (who has 1 error in 168 total chances) then he should probably play RF. FYI… Verdugo has made 2 errors on 259 total chances.
So, while I agree that Yoshida hurts OF defense by making 1 more error in 141 fewer chances than Verdugo, it still makes far more sense to reduce the 17 errors at 3B to something roughly half that which is a fairly common number of errors for ANY 3B that belongs in the MLB.
Since Yoshida is booked for 5 years and Verdugo is out the door soon I think moving Devers makes far more sense in both the short term and the long term.
Honestly I just don’t think they will do that they just inked Devers to a 30 million plus a year deal that’s why I say at least DH Yoshida. What they should do is sign Chapman, DH Deversand trade Yoshida. I just don’t see that happening though.
Bruin1012 – Love the suggestion. Good defense with Chapman and enough young depth in the outfield to move Yoshida’s OBP.
I like your thinking on this one.
Joe – I know how much you like to point out when the strength of schedule estimates for wins that I present are wrong so I though I’d give you the 2023 report card.
Predicted April to be 14-15 through 9 series. We finished 15-14 (missed by 1)
Predicted May to be 11-16 through 9 series. We finished 14-13 (missed by 3)
Predicted JUN to be 13-16 through 9 series. We finished 14-15 (missed by 1)
Predicted JUL to be 11-12 through 8 series. We finished 14-9 (missed by3)
Predicted AUG to be 12-14 through 8 series. We finished 12-13 (spot on!)
Predicted SEP/OCT to be 13-15. We’ll see how the final month works out.
13 wins would give them an 82-80 record. Currently they are 4 games over .500 after being 6 games below .500 in 2022 and 12 games over .500 in 2021 and 12 games below .500 in 2020.
DD 2016-2019 = 378-270
(108 over .500 but technically only 104 over .500 before being fired)
Bloom 2020-SEP 1 2023 – 253-255 TWO GAMES BELOW .500
Talent down makes for wins down. The proof is in the numbers!!
Maybe DD’s other draft picks might salvage some of Bloom’s future but lets face it he’s done NOTHING to significantly replenish all that he’s given up.
Maybe we all can hope for a house cleaning on SEP 1. It’s been needed since FEB of 2020 and four years of .500 baseball with no relief in sight is plenty of reason to move on to a new GM and Manager.
You predicted 74 wins for the season. So, for you to be right, Red Sox need to go 5-23 for the rest of the season. Good luck with that.
Excellent post, I totally agree! Simply put, a poor defensive left fielder has far less an impact on games than an equally poor defensive 3B. Look at all the years Manny played LF without hurting the team that much.
And BTW Devers would have far more errors if not for MLB’s edict to score almost every misplay as a hit due to the lack of offense this year.
RSmith – I keep harping on reading comprehension for a reason. The forecasting of series outcomes is an approach used by many over the years. I have provided the predictions now for several years and the predictions have done as expected. On good years the predictions are low and on bad years the predictions are high. I believe in 2020 the system predicted 28 and the team won 24. In 2021 the system the prediction was 65 based on 2020 and they had the miracle season of 92 wins. In 2022, the prediction was 76 and they won 78 and in 2023 the prediction was 74 based on losing Bogey, JD and Eovaldi.
Right now it is off by 8 thanks to the Yankees and Toronto playing so badly against BOS this season. It wasn’t expected. I certainly don’t remember you suggesting BOS was going to sweep TOR 4-0 and 3-0 nor the sweeps of the Yankees 3-0 and 3-0. That’s 13 games that were unexpected. Normally, the team would have won 4 of the 13 games since they were against superior teams so that is a 9 game adjustment making the prediction higher due to unexpected circumstances. As of today, the expected wins is 82. Not quite .500 baseball which was the general consensus of how good this team was going into the season.
After all I’ve written to explain to you why strength of schedule should be considered it’s still not an estimation technique to you it’s a prediction. It’s like trying to teach game logic to a kid playing with his PlayStation and only counting the kills. Play on RSmith your myopic world works for you.
Fever – Great point. I track them on Baseball Reference and the errors not counted as errors I have coined to be “misplays”. Last year when Devers’ defense supposedly improved to 14 errors his actual total of “misplays” were 52!!! Yes, the data says he improved but the results show he got worse.
His 2023 numbers should be no surprise to anyone. After the season I will total up the misplays again and post them but he started off the year with 4 errors which were actually 16 misplays in April so I expect something close to 50 yet again.
hat’s a lot of batted balls not being handled for the pitching staff!!
But if people want to remember when the blind squirrel finds an acorn they will. It’s amazing how people focus on his 1 outstanding play and ignore the 10 bad ones. This isn’t new news, he’s been this bad in the majors since 2017 and if you go back to the DR Baseball Academy he’s been bad FOREVER!!! Anyone that thinks a trend of 10 years is going to suddenly change is a fool. Devers will break error records in the next 5 years and establish himself the worst 3B in the history of the game!! OUCH for the pitching staff.
“I keep harping on reading comprehension for a reason.”
See if you can comprehend this:
You underestimated them in April
You underestimated them in May
You underestimated them in June
You underestimated them in July
You underestimated them in August
There’s definitely a pattern there, but go right ahead and keep explaining how close you are. I still cant “comprehend” how you could think that.
Triston Casas since May 1st offensively .289 average .384 obp .532 slugging .916 ops or if you like fangraphs 144 WRC +. He absolutely controls his at bats he’s become one of the more scary guys for a pitcher to face but yea he should of been sent down after a slow start. Ridiculous comment FPG cmon be better then that.
He’s just trolling.
Bruin1012.. the game is called CLUE and I need to get one.. I stated yoshi or devers at first and one dh….thuuuu yeah I somehow forgot about TC…. In that case I guess yoshi stays in left… Duran in Cf and Rc possibly in right… if true doesn’t look good for Dugie and that’s too bad cause I kind of like him as a dirt dog type….
Yea I think Duggie gets a bad wrap. Duggie played most of 2022 on a fractured toe which really hurt his defense but he played. I think Duggie plays through injury’s that most players can’t or won’t. His defense in right field this year has been at worst average but being that Fenway is the toughest right field in baseball I would rate him above average defensively. I guess because he was traded for Mookie he’s just not going to get a fair shake with Boston fans. Is he a superstar no he isn’t is he solid hitting solid defensive outfielder yes he is. I have to agree with you I think they move him this off-season. I think you’ll see Duran in left where his arm and defense is more suited Rafaela in center maybe a free agent in right or perhaps Abreau in right.
I don’t think they can survive with both Devers and Yoshida on the field defensively and I doubt they take Devers out of the field so Yoshida goes to DH. It’s not ideal but they just can’t have both those guys on the field defensively. If I was Bloom I would sign Chapman move Devers to DH and trade Yoshida imo one of Devers or Yoshida has to be dealt but no way Bloom moves either guy but he should to put the best product on the field.
You actually think the Betts deal that Bloom made was good. Betts is an MVP player. Why he let Schwarber walk who could have been plugged into the DH spot when he let JD Martinez go.
Al – Barring serious injury, Mookie is a HOF caliber player. During the Dodger series, the Red Sox announcer said “A trade that can never be defended, a stain that will never be removed. He is everything you could possibly want in a player”.
Strong words, but all true.
Bruin – I’ve pointed out enough times the reasoning. Wade Boggs is a HOF’er who wasn’t promoted until his age 24 season. He mastered his hitting game in AAA at age 23. If you are saying players can’t have great MLB careers by working on their game in the minors, you are wrong. Casas cost the Red Sox several games early this season, that’s a fact.
Dude he only struggled for a month. Pedroia struggled for longer they stuck with him. Casas has become imo the most dangerous hitter on the Red Sox. He controls the at bats better then anyone on the team with the possible exception of Turner. I’m not saying that some players don’t benefit from being sent down but Casas isn’t one of them. Did he cost them some games early on sure he did but he made up for it. The fact is this guy is everything I’ve been predicting he was going to be since 2021. Your wrong on this one FPG he shouldn’t of been sent down.
Bruin – You still haven’t said what your point is. Yes I understand you feel he shouldn’t have been sent down, again my question is why do you feel that way? You’re saying I’m wrong, but you’re not saying what specifically would have been detrimental if he had been sent down. Give me something, anything to justify him not being sent down. You acknowledged he contributed to several losses early in the season, so it’s not that.
I’m certainly not debating he has become a very good hitter against RHP.. And I certainly am glad he’s playing for my team, even with the atrocious defense.
My point FPG is one month is too soon to send someone down. He looked bad in that first month but it’s because he was to passive. You see big league pitchers had figured out after his cup of coffee that he wasn’t going to chase so they started really throwing him strikes. He was passive found himself down in the count often that first month he just needed time to make the adjustment once he started swinging early and more often his hitting soared. It wasn’t like they were knocking the bat if his hands sending him down after one month wasn’t going to help this guy especially because his problem was with passiveness. I have watched a ton of AAA baseball and they have a terrible strike zone very inconsistent. If he was sent down he would just walk a ton they wouldn’t pitch to him it wouldn’t of helped. He needed to work through it in the big leagues.
I also think you will see a marked improvement on his defense in 2024. I watched him a lot in the minors and he was at least average plus defensively at first he’s going to be a monster.
Bruin – Fair enough, appreciate the info. Hope you’re right on him improving defensively.
He also really worked on his defense as well. He was not great defensively when he came up from Pawtucket.
This should be like Christmas morning for Bloom. Clevenger, Giolito added to Bello, Paxton and Sale for the Wild Card chase.. The chase is over and Sale, Paxton among others may be sporting new jerseys next season but with some tough teams on the schedule these guys may be the adrenalin the rotation and the team needs.
I hate to use the ‘deer in the headlights’ expression but have you noticed all eyes on Cora since he hung out his pitcher to ‘Save the Pen and the team to fight another day.’
Last night Bello has runners on with a tough lefty batter up trailing 3-1. Maybe a little pep talk–no–he pulls him. He did the same thing the night before with Sale. The reason they have no pen arms available is Cora not Bloom. I’m for change–Tek for Cora.
Mad – Great post, I agree 100%!
Re Tek for manager, does he speak?
Baseball- Yes, ask ARod.
Whenever the Sox *need* a roster spot. Do MLBTR writers edit?
Put a fork in this team, they are done. Another wasted year in Boston with this imbecile of a Baseball President Chaim Bloom or whatever his title is. No worthwhile trades at the deadline and this team was close too. This team is terrible defensively and that is on Bloom as well. You cannot make chicken salad with chicken feathers. I am hoping that Henry gets a GM who is not afraid to make a trade involving his precious prospects. A small market GM in a major market city. I never saw fans from other teams outnumber Red Sox fans at Fenway. Bloom caused this.
Al – No postseason 3 out of 4 years for a big market team. Wouldn’t be surprised if even the Yankees push them into the cellar yet again.
Me either. Bloom needs to go. He hangs onto these prospects like they are gold reserves. Most are not going to make it. I think it has something to do with the money they make as opposed to paying an established player. He hopes to catch lightening in a bottle with all of them and they they are at major league minimum. With all the trades Dave Dombroski made, how many rookies traded for established players made it ? Kopech and Moncado, the two they traded for Sale are not exactly setting the league on fire. Kopech has an ERA north of 5.00 and Moncado is hitting 250.
Al – You are 100% correct! For all the prospects Dombrowski traded, none have really done much of anything. Beeks, Margot, Espinal have been meh while the others have fizzled.
He was smart enough to keep Casas, Bello, Devers, Rafaela.
Fever – That’s such a great observations. A great GM USES the farm system to improve the MLB team. The trick is to recognize the farm system players to keep who will eventually be promoted and contribute to the MLB club and which ones to trade when their value is more than their skills.
Bloom has no sense of who will be good and who is just a big name. Jeter Downs and Verdugo are great examples. Verdugo has never been more than a league average player so when he’s under team control his price is reasonable but his skills are completely replaceable at the same cost. He’s not an addition in a trade, he’s just a component of the trade. Mookie was the only talent in Feb 2020 trade. Verdugo, Wong and Downs NEVER had a chance of being more than league average so we could have gotten them with 10 years of control and the value would have been the same….ZERO.
Mookie on the other hand is a HOF player who would have been the best player on the team the last four years. Losing the best player for nothing should have gotten Bloom fired except many believe ownership made him do it. Either way, Red Sox fans have paid the price for the huge mistake.
I heard that Verdugo gets to the ballpark late a lot. Not good. Plus he had disciplinary problems with the Dodgers with some abuse of a young girl.
I hope I am wrong. Butt I can totally see Bloom and company around for another year. They will can Cora ( which he should go) and spin the narrative that bloom set up a competitive team and lack of defense and base running killed it .
B dog 351 – From your keyboard to god’s ears on canning Cora!!! Bloom must have an internal senior person in the organization that is related to him or owes him a huge favor because his lack of performance has been obvious since he arrived and he got renewed last year despite replacing a guy 104 games over .500 with a team that was .500 for 3 years.
I always figured Cora had leverage since he knew about the Video Room and endorsed it and shared the plan with ownership because he liked working around DD so he could build a relationship with the big bosses. Weasels work like that in a corporate environment!! For his silence to the commissioner about ownership’s knowledge of the Video Room plan, Cora got rewarded with an extension despite doing a horrible job in 2018 and 2019 and suspended for cheating during the 2020 season.. Nobody in their right mind would have wanted such a toxic person to be part of their organization, it had to be leverage that Cora had to preserve his job!!
Troll totally agree with you . How they can keep this up is beyond me. Don’t fix what’s not broken. Bloom came in a gutted a team that was set up to compete for years .
Bloom is a small market GM who rode on Andrew Friedman’s shirt tails in Tampa. This clown getter the 2018 team that was good defensively as well. Now we have guys who cannot field and are all out of position. Please fire this guy Henry!
“Bloom came in a gutted a team that was set up to compete for years”
Too funny.
When Bloom got here:
1) They had no immediate help coming from minors. If they did, please tell us who, Duran and Casas were years away.
2) They were over the Salary Threshold for 2 consecutive years and heading for a third if there was drastic reduction in salary. Being over for 3 consecutive years causes major drafting and signing penalties.
3) They had several starting players with expiring contracts (Betts, Rodriguez, Benintendi, Porcello, Moreland, Bradley, Holt).
4) Two of their best pitchers that were locked up (Sale and Eovaldi) were injured.
But, hey, dont let reality mess with your phony narrative.
Ironic: Bloom himself is out of position…
Porcello was not very good in 2019, nor was Bradley and Moreland was coming to the end of his career. Of course you have to replace a roster. Dombroski got you a World Series ring in 2018. Bloom has made some crazy moves like trading Renfroe for JBJ last year. Are you kidding me ? Was that to get an African American player in the team after Price and Betts were traded? Yeah Dombroski made a mistake in signing Sale and Pearce I guess wanted to retire.
Do actually trust Bloom to fix this mess? He always looks for bargains and high potential guys. You cannot do that every trade. He holds onto these prospects like they are gold.Boston is a major market baseball town not like Tampa. Two years in a row of mediocrity 2022 and 2023. He’ll if he had picked up two better relievers in 2021 instead of Hansel Robles and Austin Davis he might have gotten back to the World Series again.
“Porcello was not very good in 2019, nor was Bradley and Moreland was coming to the end of his career.”
“not very good” What does that have to do with anything?
They were starters on a mediocre team. The team finished 84-78 in 2019. Those players had to be replaced with BETTER players in order to compete, because according to BDog’s narrative “they were setup for YEARS”.
Where were the players to replace Bradley, Moreland, Porcello, Pearce and the other much better players (Betts, Benintendi, Rodriguez, Holt) suppose to come from? Also were you guys planning on going with Workman as your closer?
There was an obvious huge void in talent coming in 2020 thru 2022. Payroll already maxed out, no prospects on the way. Youve done nothing to explain how they were going to overcome that.
No response? Because there is none. The future of the Red Sox talentwise was a complete mess in Aug 2019. Any revision of that fact is wrong.
But, nice try, attempting to change the subject to a crappy trade instead. Want to talk about the Pivetta trade? Whitlock drafting? The Vázquez trade looks great, what about that one?
RSmith – Do you seriously follow the Red Sox? Your ignorance of what actually occurred is monumental!!
Lets start with your WRONG statements
1 – No immediate help from the minors?
Their team was a championship team. They didn’t need immediate help from the minors because they won 93 game twice with this team, 108 another year and their “Bad” year was 84 NOT 78 you twit.
2 – Where were the players to replace JBJ, Porcello, Pearce and Moreland?
– Porcello was money dropping off the books to be replace by a new pitcher using his money
– JBJ’s heir apparent was Duran but DD would have released JBJ and resigned him for a lower amount until Duran was ready
– Pearce was a FA so his money was to be used to replace him
– Moreland may not have been a great hitter but he saved so many bad throws by Devers I can’t imagine Moreland would have been released he would have shared time with Dalbec, Chavis or the many other farm hands who could play 1B despite being 3Bs
You seriously have no idea about the great Red Sox line-up of 2018. Were you under 10 years old back then so your memory is vague?
The void in talent you talk about often happens when you have a championship team that is in their prime and doesn’t need talent for a few years because they are already great so they timed the development of the farm for the 2022 time frame when the contracts were to run out!!
The 2019 team was a championship team with an embarrassingly bad manager and a bunch of key injuries. Their 84 wins was down compared to the 108, 93, 93 of the previous 3 years but it was up from the 24 in 2020, the 78 in 2022. The lucky 2021 season only produced 92 wins, less than all of DD’s first 3 years.
So once again, I have proven that you RSmith are a troll who has no clue about facts related to this team. It could be argued that you must be a Yankee fan because you are arguing with some of the finest Red Sox fans I know.
My suggestion to you is pipe down and learn something from your elders and your far more baseball savvy colleagues.
You keep talking about different years that suit your bias. The talk is 2019 to 2020. It doesnt matter what was happening in 2016, ’17, ’18. The subject is moving forward from 2019 and whether DD couldve saved this trainwreck of a team.
Also when I post the Red Sox record of 84-78 and you responded “their “Bad” year was 84 NOT 78 you twit.” Do you think the wins come AFTER the losses? Wow, zero for comprehension.
Tons of insults, changing facts, nah youre not a Troll at all.
RSmith – Glad to see you reacted as you did to the 84 win comment. I wanted you to understand what it’s like dealing with you and all your wrong facts and insults. Sucks doesn’t it. Maybe next time you can be respectful so others can be respectful to you too.
I couldn’t have been clearer about the small window you wanted to limit the discussion to. Signing Mookie in 2019 wasn’t an option with both Sale and Bogey being more imminent. What DD underestimated was ownership’s vigilance to screwing over the players with home town discounts. Both Bogey and Sale took home town discounts. That created an expectation that DD wasn’t able to overcome with regard to Mookie. Mookie was steadfast on getting a fair salary and that was against ownership’s philosophy of screwing over the players. Bogey deserved more than $20MM per year and Sale’s initial hometown discount saved ownership a lot of money so paying him close to a fair price was tolerable. Mookie had always arbitrated his contracts because he was convinced he should fight for a fair salary as a minority. This is not a stance that people should view as being selfish. He stood up for his rights and I applaud him. What ownership did was despicable. Forcing home town discounts is no way to run a baseball franchise if you want to be successful. Requesting a discount is smart, insisting on it is unreasonable.
Last point, there was no “train wreck’ of a team in 2019. They had a train wreck of a manager who screwed up the entire season by making a monumental mistake by bringing the SPs to Spring Training 2 weeks late. They had several key injuries after several years with minimal injuries but that’s it. The ‘train wreck” never existed. 84 wins is hardly a train wreck. 24 is when you play 60 games but in 2020 the team was poised to bounce back from an off year and DD simply had to find ways to lessen the loss of Sale to TJ surgery caused by Cora. That’s all.
The 10 years $350MM offer to Mookie would have happened in the same time frame as the Bogey and Sale deals the year before and coincidentally had DD still been in charge when COVID hit he would have enjoyed the Price opt out to get back under the CAP for 2020. With Sale out the team may not have won the division but Sale would have had surgery earlier so his return would have happened much earlier so Sale would have been ready at the start of 2022 and the 2020 season would have ended with far more than 24 wins.
The key to all of this is that Boston in 2021 would have been under the CAP they would have had Mookie, Benny and a cheaper JBJ. Devers, Bogey, Holt/Duran and Moreland/Dalbec would have been the hitters along with Vazquez. The SP would have needed a boost so DD would have spent money on back-filling Sale and the bullpen gaps. The payroll would have shed even more of the dead money that was there before DD arrived and the team would have competed for the Division title not a long shot wild card spot.
There was absolutely NO “train wreck’ before Bloom arrived. The “train wreck’ you reference was created by Ownership and Bloom with a big assist from Cora..
I don’t live on this board all day Sparky. Porcello wasn’t good. JBJ and Moreland were not great either. Arguments there? So they were up against the so called CAP. That is how I knew they were going to fire Dombroski because he was not allowed to do anything at the trade deadline. I actually called into WEEI and spoke to the host and I said they were going to fire him at the end of the year. They said I was wrong but I was right. Management clipped his wings at the trade deadline. Yeah they needed to make changes in 2019 but did not. Dombroski kept the team intact
“Porcello wasn’t good. JBJ and Moreland were not great either. Arguments there?”
How do you not get it? They were starters. Starters cost money. Thats 1000s of ABs and hundreds of innings that have to be replaced, in 2020, by other players that need to be “Good”. They are over the cap, have no minor leaguers coming up. The fact that they werent good in 2019, makes no difference.
Given that the team is over the threshold, no help coming up. Give us the magic that DD wouldve used to somehow sustain this trainwreck of a team that was 2019.
Dombroski got you a World Series win Sparky. I’ll take that anytime. Bloom has done nothing. He picked up two mediocre relief pitchers in 2021 in Robles and Davis. Instead of looking for bargain pitchers and high upside guys he should have picked up established relievers and he might have beaten Houston that year.
R Smith . I don’t live on this site like you , so this is the reason for my late response. I did use the wrong term with gutted . He might as well have . He lets a franchise player like Mookie go for a basically nothing. I am sure you’re going to point out the Dodgers took some of the Price contract. In my opinion Who cares . How many players are out there that are in Mookie’s league a player you can build around? The handling of Bogarts come on ? Benny ? Let’s talk about Nate . A guy who pitched his nuts off in the postseason for us. Granted he is injury prone. Let him walk away for nothing. I am sure you’re a big Paxton fan now too. That was a great signing. Bringing back JBJ, that worked out well . Franchy another one. Story signing see how that plays out . Outbid himself on our DH that plays left field . At least he locked up another DH / 3b Devers . Nick P was about his only good move . Come on back with but but the farm and payroll ( like it’s your $) .
“Mookie go for a basically nothing.”
2 Starters plus salary relief is nothing?
“Benny?”
Are you serious. That trade is looking more and more like a STEAL! Do you follow the Sox:
Josh Winckowski
Emmanual Valdez
Grant Gambrell
Luis DeLaRosa
One’s already a regular on the team and 2 more will be next year. For a year of Benintendi? Come on.
Your an idiot.
You keep hoping for these prospects. More often than that they do not make it. That was not a great trade for Benintendi back then. The Betts trade was a terrible trade then Bloom backed out with the relief pitcher from Minnesota to make the trade with the Dodgers. Bloom is not a great GM
RSmith –
Winckowski in 2 seasons has a 99 ERA+ where 100 is league average. Yep, he’s a great add so far. But you live in what we have coined
“Bloom’s World” much like “Wayne’s World” but far less realistic and far more future oriented.
Freddy Valdez – Spent 2021 and 2022 around the Mendoza line and appears to not be in baseball any more since his webpage is not affiliated with the Red Sox. So how much value did he provide? NONE.
Franchy Cordero – Had two seasons with Boston and produced a 72 OPS+ Should his lack of contribution below league average be added to the Benny side of the ledger?
Grant Gambrell – The 25 year old pitcher at Hi-A with a 4.88 ERA after six starts and a 1.404 WHIP? Lots of upside projected for this guy!! hahaha
Luis DeLaRosa – Very young. In fact so young I had to capture his bio for you. Here is his biographical information from Baseball Reference. If this doesn’t impress you nothing will !!! hahaha
Luis De La Rosa of St. Martin pitched in the Division Elite in 2011, going 1-2 with a 12.46 ERA for the Toulouse Tigers; he walked 15 and allowed 17 hits in 13 innings. He also caught and hit .267/.294/.289 at the plate. In the 2012 European Championship, he pitched one game for the French national team, posting a 54.00 ERA; only Quentin Pourcel was worse for France in the 2012 Euros. He relieved Eloi Secleppe with a 11-0 deficit, one on and two outs in the 3rd against the host Dutch national team and retired Kalian Sams. In the 4th, though, he gave up a hit to Quintin de Cuba. He retired Wesley Connor then plunked Danny Rombley. Nick Urbanus and Mike Duursma hit back-to-back run-scoring singles and an error let in another run. Hainley Statia doubled. De La Rosa then was yanked in favor of Alexandre Martin.
What a bizarre bio. Nothing worth mentioning since he was roughly little league age!!!
Yes, it’s clear that Boston got the better end of the deal by giving up a guy that was an all-star. Instead they could have had FOUR guys who won’t contribute to the MLB team significantly enough to provide positive value in the trade. You think like Bloom. Four bad players that are cheap are better than an all-star. Your argument makes perfect sense in “Bloom’s World” thinking. hahaha
Give me Mookie anytime over Jeter Downs (Is he even in baseball anymore?) Verdugo and Wong. Mookie is an MVP Player. It was a bad bad trade from an amateur GM Bloom
1 year of Mookie vs Verdugo and Wong:
Mookie: 3.6 War
vs
Verdugo: 9.0 War (so far)
Wong: 2.5 War (so far)
*Plus dumping Price and Mookie’s salary ($57 Million) at a time when Red Sox desperately needed salary relief.
———
Red Sox got plenty back for Betts, don’t know how this isnt blatantly obvious.
RSmith – WAR is bogus for so many reasons but lets hit on the single biggest fallacy of WAR.
Go to any baseball stat service and list the players by OPS+ from highest to lowest. Then read their WAR values and see if they coincide with the OPS+ values. Then scan down the list and COUNT how many players have an OPS+ of 100 to 110. Those are players comparable or better than Verdugo, Wong and Downs.
Now use simple logic. Why would a Replacement Value such as WAR so badly represent the facts? Guys with 100 to 110 are a dime a dozen and that’s not far from their cost.
So if Boston would have had a different outfielder with a 100 to 110 OPS+ what would his WAR have been? It should have been comparable to Verdugo’s if WAR was calculated correctly but that’s not the case. WAR is all over the place because the assumptions are wrong. You can’t value a player’s replacement value by WAR. It’s not consistent with the actual facts he generates using BA, OBP, SLG and OPS. So why the mismatch? Because the WAR formula is incorrect and meaningless.
Verdugo was completely replaceable by a similar priced player. Therefore, he has no incremental value which is why you trade for a player. The deal is to improve your team not keep it comparable if you substituted a similar player at the same price.
Opportunity Cost is a concept you might not understand but it’s real in business and baseball. An asset that is completely replaceable at the same price has no intrinsic value to the organization. Wong, Verdugo and clearly Downs have had no incremental benefit to the Red Sox All three were replaceable and it could be argued that we could have had a better player in right field than Verdugo for the same price. If that were the case, then the deal actually hurt Boston.
Now the other side of the ledger. Mookie is not comparable to other players that were readily available like Verdugo and Wong had dozens of comparable counterparts. Mookie is elite and while he costs more he produces far more than he costs. That’s a net gain for any team employing him. If you take only the 2020 season and consider it Boston’s loss it is still significant whether you consider your 3.6 WAR, his 147 OPS+ or his 2nd place finish in the MVP voting..
If you concede that DD could have signed him just like all the others in his career to a long term contract then the firing of DD cost the franchise an enormous amount. Either way, Boston made a massive mistake letting Betts’ talent go elsewhere for three players who were completely replaceable at the same price so they added no value to the trade.
I know this is a financially oriented set of facts but when you make a trade you must consider the replacement cost of the players being added and subtracted. LAD knew this and stole Mookie from the inexperienced Bloom. That or Bloom was complacent in the deal to satisfy his contractual requirement to the owners to dump Mookie. Either way, the deal will always be a massive mistake that ranks with the Babe Ruth mistake.
One more time since you refuse to accept the facts. Price’s opt out put the Red Sox under the CAP in 2020 with DD or Bloom. The payroll issues were going to keep dropping off the books as they did and that had nothing to do with Bloom or DD. There was no financial crisis because the Red Sox net profits were hundreds of millions each year from 2018 to 2023 except the COVID year but the Red Sox were NEVER hurting for money to justify the destruction that has happened.
You stating something as blatantly obvious when it clearly defies the facts is embarrassing. It makes you look like you have no idea of what you are talking about nor understand how to argue your point. Declarations from you are not facts. The fact is Verdugo, Wong and Downs could have been replaced for the same price so they added no value to the deal. The resources could have been procured elsewhere and the team would still have had Mookie in 2020 and beyond if DD had still been there.
The great GIVEAWAY of Mookie in 2020 will live in infamy!!
So you think that was the best they could have gotten for him ( Benny ) That was the right time to dump him? You’re backing the Mookie trade too. I read that Verdgo might get traded this offseason. So Bloom traded an MVP and we got Verdgo, Wong , and Downs . What exactly do you think he will get for Verdgo? A bag of balls and two bat boys . Let’s be realistic . Bloom is terrible. Why didn’t he clean house last year ? Bogey, JD, Evalodi, all could have been traded for his precious farm. Nope just let’s them walk as F/A . I might have even bought into his rebuild .
Benny trade? Absolutely.
1) Red Sox were in Rebuild Mode, basically all short-term contracts of value needed to go.
2) Benintendi had 2 season left before Free Agency. So his value was limited.
4) Benintendi was coming off a TERRIBLE season (14 games, .442 OPS) and his numbers were trailing down for 3 straight seasons.
5) We’ve gotten 2 players with years of control that have already reached the majors (Winckowski, Freddy Valdez) plus 2 more moving up the minor league ranks (Gambrell, De La Rosa).
We werent trading 2021 Benny, we were trading 2020 Benny. Im amazed you think we could’ve gotten more.
Freddy Valdez has not reached the majors. He was waived by Boston.
you’re confusing him with Emanuel Valdez who came over in the Vasquez trade.
R smith . I am curious if you know the whereabouts of Brian Rose ( traded for Pedro) , Lars Anderson, Blake Swiehart . If my memory serves me they were all big Sox prospects. Possibly they are playing charity softball with Sam Horn .
You had to go back to Brian Rose and Lars Anderson for a failed prospect? Lol.
Im pretty sure, we also had “big Sox prospects” named Bogaerts, Devers, Lester, Ellsbury, Pedoria, Youkilis, Schilling, Rodriguez, Bradley, Benintendi, Anthony Rizzo, Garciaparra. . . . I could go on.
You prospects haters dont get it. If you have 30 talented prospects and average 30% become major leaguers, you dont look at the failed 20. You look at the 10 that will become major leaguers. If you only have 10 talented prospects, (aka what DD left behind) you’re looking at only 3.
Owners cant buy teams, they have to augment them with young talent from Minors, Trades and Free Agents. The Padres over the next few years will become the poster child of my point.
I am buy no way a prospect hater. You went back to Theo and Dan D guys . I ll agree with you on the padres, just not in Bloom. Who did DD trade that you would want back. You never answered my question . You think letting bogey , Jd , and Nate walk instead of trading them was a good move? Could say the same for this year they have guys that could have been dealt . But he sits idle. That’s a rebuild ? Then go all in! In my opinion that’s leaving them some what competitive so they put fans in the seats. Sorry just don’t have faith in Bloom
Rsmith . Wow I had to read it again . I am going far back lol!!. You just put schilling in there! You might as well have put Brady Anderson in there with him they got traded together for Mike Bodicker. It aint like DD gave up a Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson.