In a swift retooling of the pitching staff, the Guardians have claimed right-handers Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez and lefty Matt Moore off waivers from the Angels, Jeff Passan and Kiley McDaniel of ESPN report. It’s a sudden, jarring final push to salvage a postseason appearance by Cleveland — one that would have seemed impossible just 72 hours ago.
The Angels’ decision to place roughly a quarter of their roster on waivers — Hunter Renfroe, Randal Grichuk and Dominic Leone all hit waivers on Tuesday as well — stunned the industry, though the rationale behind it is at least sound. The Angels aggressively pushed for a postseason berth at the deadline, acquiring Giolito, Lopez, Grichuk and C.J. Cron, but have since lost two-thirds of their games and fallen from postseason contention in a stacked AL West. (Somewhat amusingly, their 64-70 record is the same as the Guardians, though the AL Central is the sport’s weakest division.)
That slate of trades pushed the Halos over the luxury tax threshold, which would reduce their draft compensation in the event that Shohei Ohtani signs elsewhere after rejecting a qualifying offer. They’d also face steeper penalties in 2024 in the event that they exceeded the tax barrier next year. But, by waiving this slate of players and seeing each of Giolito, Lopez, Moore, Renfroe (Reds) and Leone (Mariners) all come off the books, the Angels will duck back under the tax threshold. Their theoretical comp pick for Ohtani’s departure would come prior to the third round of the draft rather than between the fourth and fifth rounds. They also won’t face any escalating penalties in the event that they wind up as a luxury tax payor next season.
It’s a bad look for MLB to see such a brazenly non-competitive move by a team that just four weeks ago energized its fanbase and clubhouse with a bold win-now push. At the same time, the Angels can’t really be faulted for the decision at this juncture, given the manner in which things have played out. They’re merely taking advantage of the rules that have been collectively bargained between the league and the Players Association. None of the players they waived would’ve been eligible or considered for a qualifying offer anyhow, so there’s quite literally no incentive for the Angels to hold onto them and strong incentive for them to engage in this tactic now that their playoff hopes are all but mathematically dashed.
While Major League Baseball perhaps ought to look into ways to prevent mass roster purges of this nature in future Augusts, there’s little to be done about it now — and the Guardians stand to benefit. Cleveland has spent the entirety of the year looking up at the Twins in the American League Central standings, and after taking two of three from Minnesota in their just-completed series now faces only a five-game deficit. It’s worth wondering what might’ve happened if the Twins had swept or at least won the series — Minnesota was within one strike of winning yesterday’s game, but the bullpen couldn’t hold the lead — though perhaps Cleveland would’ve made the claims even if facing a six- or seven-game deficit.
A firm answer to that hypothetical probably can’t ever be known, but it’s a moot point anyhow; the Guardians’ comeback win yesterday brought them within striking distance of the Twins in the division, and they’ll now add three high-caliber arms to their pitching staff. Giolito, of course, is the most notable of the bunch and perhaps the most vital, given the extent of the pitching injuries that have ravaged the Cleveland rotation this year. Each of Shane Bieber, Triston McKenzie and Cal Quantrill has been out more seven weeks. The Guardians, acknowledging that their playoff hopes had slipped, traded Aaron Civale to the Rays prior to the deadline.
Giolito joins a rookie-laden rotation, adding a veteran arm to stand alongside the impressive trio of Tanner Bibee, Gavin Williams and Logan Allen. The expectation is that Quantrill will soon be ready to join that group, and the club has also expressed optimism that Bieber could return late in the month.
While the 2023 season has been Giolito’s worst in recent memory, that’s largely due to poor results with the team that just waived him. After pitching to a 3.79 ERA with a 25.8% strikeout rate and 8.3% walk rate in 121 innings with the White Sox, Giolito was torched for a 6.89 ERA with worse strikeout (22.8%) and walk (10.3%) rates as a member of the Halos. Most dramatically, an already too-high home run rate of 1.49 per nine innings pitched spiked to 2.76 as an Angel.
Looking at Giolito’s track record as a whole, however, it’s easy enough to see why he was claimed by several teams (the others all having lower waiver priority than Cleveland). Dating back to 2019, Giolito sports a 3.99 ERA in 743 innings. His strikeout rate has dipped over the past two seasons, but he’s still averaging 93-94 mph on his heater, punching out about a quarter of his opponents, and has generally shown good command throughout his MLB career. The Cy Young-caliber breakout many expected perhaps never came, but Giolito is a durable mid-rotation arm who misses bats, limits walks and is a playoff-caliber arm.
Meanwhile, an already excellent Cleveland bullpen will now add two formidable arms in Lopez and Moore. Guardians relievers already rank fifth in the Majors with a 3.48 ERA, and the addition of two veterans just in time for rosters to expand will put them in the conversation for best relief corps in baseball.
Lopez, 29, is one of MLB’s hardest throwers, averaging a blistering 98.4 mph on his heater this year. He’s seen his previously strong command erode in 2023, walking a career-worst 12.6% of his opponents, but he’s also fanning a career-best 29.8% of hitters and boasting a career-high 14.1% swinging-strike rate. In 55 innings of relief, the former top prospect has a 3.93 ERA. Lopez is limiting hard contact at the best levels of his career as well and throwing his blazing fastball more often than ever before — generally at the expense of his third and fourth pitches (curveball, changeup). He’s primarily been a fastball/slider pitcher this year, and while the results have been a bit mixed, he’ll add a power arm capable of missing bats in droves to Terry Francona’s bullpen.
Moore, meanwhile, gives Francona a second lefty alongside Sam Hentges. The 34-year-old has found new life in his career since moving to a full-time relief role last year. He’s pitched 44 innings for the Angels in 2023, working to a 2.66 ERA with a career-high 28% strikeout rate and a very strong 6.9% walk rate.
Once the game’s consensus top pitching prospect, Moore impressed early on with the Rays before Tommy John surgery derailed his career. The left-hander never seemed to fully recover. After pitching to a 3.53 ERA from 2011-14, he missed most of the 2014-15 seasons recovering from that surgery, and posted a 5.26 ERA over his next 620 2/3 innings post-surgery.
Moore had a one-year stop in Japan along the way and pitched fairly well there, but it wasn’t until signing a minor league deal with Texas last year that he became a pitcher of note at the big league level again. Moore’s 1.95 ERA set the stage for a $7.55MM deal with the Angels this year, and he’s now logged a combined 2.21 ERA in his career’s second act as a late-inning reliever.
All in all, it’s a borderline unheard-of boon to a Major League pitching staff at this stage of a season — and all it will cost the Guardians is the collective $3.727MM that remain on the trio’s 2023 contracts. Each of Giolito, Moore and Lopez will be a free agent after the season, and the Guardians won’t receive any compensation if and when they enter free agency. They’re still a long shot to erase that five-game gap in the standings, particularly with the Twins still having series against the A’s, Rockies, White Sox, Mets and a now-depleted Angels team. But the Guardians were presented an opportunity to do everything they could to boost their slim playoff odds, and just like the Angels did one month ago, they took their shot.
M.C.Homer
Birds of a feather…
i like al conin
Does the CBA require Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez to be on the same team? I really hope they like each other.
#1WhiteSoxFan
Cubs wanted Lopez (and Moore).
But Cleve had priority.
nukeg
“It’s a bad look for MLB to see such a brazenly non-competitive move by a team that just four weeks ago energized its fanbase and clubhouse with a bold win-now push. At the same time, the Angels can’t really be faulted for the decision at this juncture, given the manner in which things have played out. ”
Thank you Steve. I think this statement summarizes what a lot of Angel fans feel. While it’s understandable from a business perspective, it just doesn’t leave a good taste in the fan bases’ mouth after such a boost came just 4 weeks ago.
The real WTF lies with the coaching staff and the players for dropping a dung-heap of effort during these past 4 weeks.
Dock_Elvis
“Brazenly uncompetitive”…that’s the MLB agenda with Oakland, isn’t it?
outinleftfield
And Pittsburgh
YourDreamGM
Results don’t look like it energized the clubhouse. It was fun but they paid a high prospect cost for a weak chance of contending.
nukeg
“they paid a high prospect cost for a weak chance of contending….”
With one of the hardest strength of schedule (I believe it was the Angels and the Yankees) for the remaining 2 months, I can’t imagine the forecasting model showed these were good moves to make. Especially when it was clear that Mike Trout was clearly not himself all season.
norcalguardiansfan
I think, nukeg, that part of the motivation was that the Guardians pitching staff is gassed. Way too many high leverage innings for the bullpen, plus all five starters were on the IL, several for months at a time. We now have four rookies starting for us. They are extremely talented, but rookies none the less.
Yes, they hope to contend, again, but protecting Williams, Bibee and Allen from injury while bringing in quality bullpen arms (maybe we hope to sign one or both for next year?) are important motivations in these moves.
YourDreamGM
Are the Angels known for making good moves? I think they are one of the worst ran teams. Been better with this new gm but it’s a really low bar.
carllafong
The Angels can’t be blamed for trading 9 of their top 30 prospects and then three weeks later getting rid of the same two players that cost them their top two prospects? Can’t be blamed for not trading all of these same players three weeks ago for prospects instead of coming away with nothing? This move ensures Ohtani will not resign. A 32-year old Trout has no choice but to now ask for a trade. Moreno is running the worst franchise in SPORTS.
scottn59c
It was going to be a catch-22 with Ohtani no matter what. If they traded him, fans would have cried bloody murder. There was no way to know, too, that he was possibly staring down the barrel of a TJ.
The decision to go for it made sense, and alas, the team hit a brutal stretch; it happens. The smartest thing they could do, even if it’s a hit to the fans, is to get under the tax threshold and start retooling for next year.
Does the move really ensure that Ohtani doesn’t resign? He was unlikely to before, but now, he might be interested in a pillow contract until he can pitch again, and he’s got familiarity with the Angels. While their deadline moves backfired, they certainly showed some willingness to compete.
beyou02215
No one is taking on the Trout contract.
M.C.Homer
And the Angels are TJ experts..
thefaithfulfriar
Or he realizes how pathetic the Halos front office and owners are and he hits them right in the kisser for a 2-year deal to rehab and we re-set to where we now
angelscamp
You do know that Texas, Seattle and Houston are in the same division, right? It was the right move, they were not going to catch up to those teams. Better to save money for Shohei’s new contract.
DanUgglasRing
That’s not gonna do it boys.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Probably not, but you can’t blame them for not trying
DanUgglasRing
I think it’s just a massive “F U” to the Twins tbh.
User 899214610
I hope so
YourDreamGM
I love it. 5 games with a month left isn’t much. Cleveland doesn’t seem to have the team to make it probable but still possible.
CalcetinesBlancos
This is hilarious.
Samuel
Only if you don’t know the first thing about MLB…..
Cleveland is running a pitching factory, and has been for 7-8 years. They don’t have a lot of time to straighten those guys out, but they’ll get some innings out of them and save their young starting staff from pitching too many innings – a mistake they made with McKenzie last year.
They need a RH run producer and should have gone after Renfroe or Grichuk as well.
They can catch the Twins – they have the best manager in MLB.
Deadguy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum
Samuel
Don’t be so hard on yourself, Hippy.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
When will price of Scotch come down?
GONEcarlo
Lmao just when they thought they’d be on a better team…
Clevelandian
They are now. Look at the last 5 to 10 years and convince me otherwise.
nick777
only this year matters and we have same record after we had worst month in team history we are better
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
They have a better chance at the postseason than the Yankees
rmullig2
Good to see them spend some money. On the other hand this pretty much eliminates any chance the Red Sox had of getting back into it.
Ryan Y.
F&%& Alex Cora
OIC2021
F&%& Rocco Baldelli
Fever Pitch Guy
mull – Even if the Sox had acquired them, still wouldn’t have a chance of making the postseason. Not with the way that organization is run.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Red Sox have no chance at the postseason, waiver wire or not.
angryyankeesfan1
Like I said earlier, they do everything together.
SweetBabyRayKingsThickThighs
They cut Thor and are now stricken with the injury bug so they claim Gio…
Big Hurt
Not sure what this even means… Giolito, at his worst, is still better than Syndegaard.
C Yards Jeff
Afraid the Twins may get one or both, they went for it?
M.C.Homer
Once Moore gone, will that be enough to get under the CBT?
orange2001
Good. At least they didn’t end up with a division rival or the Dodgers.
LATrolleyDodger
Dodgers wouldn’t have had a chance to claim because they have MLBs 2nd best record. Teams with the lowest team records chose before the real contenders.
Manfred Rob's Earth Band
Yes because we all know having the 2nd best record in baseball means something… errr something
Tigers3232
Considering he was mentioning them having 2nd best record in regard to waivers, it absolutely means something. It meant they had no chance claiming anyone.
VegasSDfan
The Dodgers were looking for starting pitching
darrenp-2
They get Giolito and they get Naylor back as soon as this weekend. Watch out Twins, the Guardians are set up and have their eye on the division (and around an 82 win season haha)
BrianStrowman9
This really confirms for me that Tito is done after this year. They’re giving him a fighting chance with these moves. A 5 game hole is large but not insurmountable when the Twins are ahead of you.
BrianStrowman9
3 against the Twins also. You pull off a sweep there and you’re right on them.
SteveC
This is the Guards version of what the Angels did a month ago lol
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Still a very steep hill to climb
Dustyslambchops23
Minus that they didn’t give any future pieces up.
brodie-bruce
it is but the cards in 11 after tlr said he was done (least at the time he was) were 11 back and somehow made it, still scratching my head on that one even with atl collapse in september if they would of won 1 more game my team doesn’t get a chance in 11 but i digress. 5 games out in the alc and the twins haven’t ran away or playing like a team that’s going to runaway so there’s still hope and winning a div is still better than a wc. with all that being said cle is out no real money only mlb money. what i mean by that is i wouldn’t be surprised if cle and laa don’t already have some sorta pbnl trade for cash that equals to what cle paid to help laa get under the lt or close to it. or both owners make an outside mlb business deal for the price it took claiming those players (or hell on losing a hand of poker in a casino). long and short cle made money on this deal, they ramped up excitement within the fan base and if they make it they get that playoff money. also there are the back door deals we never hear about because if we did they would be stopped that have already taken place. imho this is only a “loss” for cle in baseball paper terms, in reality both owners got what they want and probably got paid by outside businesses dealings. let’s remember that most mlb owners have business outside of bb or friends outside of bb that can facilitate or launder money to the owners.
MacGromit
AL Central is a mass of meh. No lead is safe.
IronBallsMcGinty
Lucas can ask his new teammate what is what like to punch Tim in the face.
cpdpoet
IBM, just having my coffee and thanks to you it is now coming out of my nose.
AMAZING belly laugh first thing in the morning.
Thank you goodsir, thank you!
Sourhaze
This makes no sense. These players aren’t going to make them a post season team.
Tdat1979
They just wanted to make sure that the Twins didn’t get them.
Waz1
It makes complete sense. 4 kids starters may need a rest and the bullpen has been gassed from overuse due to starters not lasting long. Nice moves..
martras
It makes plenty of sense. The Twins collapsed last year, and the Guardians are 5.0 GB with 3 head to head home games against the .515 winning percentage Twins left.
All it will take is a sweep of the Twins in Cleveland and things get awfully tight. Especially considering the Twins have been totally unable to get much above .500 this year.
OIC2021
The Twins will collapse just like last September.
Baldelli is all ready starting to scratch. Their game GIVEN to the Guardians yesterday is living, breathing proof.
kellin
If the Guardians problem is mainly a pitching issue, then yes it helps a lot. Moore and Lopez are solid relief, and maybe Giolito will pitch better under less stressful circumstances with the Guardians..
hsantana
Even if their problem isn’t pitching, there are a few weak spots that these 3 solve. And very well.
mikevm3
Never separate these two
kidbryant
3
drasco036
Way to screw over actual playoff teams! At least they are not going to the Reds.
JRamHOF
Cope and seethe
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
It’s not screwing playoff teams when waiver wire is open to non-playoff teams first. If playoff teams are depending on waiver wire, that’s a problem
YourDreamGM
Cleveland is a playoff contender. No way they should have passed on these guys.
drasco036
If you believe that I have some beach front property in Tennessee for sale for you
blueboy714
I’m not sure they can make up 11 games and pass up 4 teams to make the playoffs, but ok.
Sourhaze
They’re 5 GB from division but this doesn’t cut it
seamaholic 2
5 games is easily doable in a month. Still have 3 head to heads at home.
outinleftfield
Wait! You said the Angels couldn’t make up 5 games in 2 months. So which is it?
Fever Pitch Guy
blueboy – That subscription doesn’t seem to be paying off for you, might want to ask for a refund.
88dodgers
Has anybody played for 3 different teams in the same year and still failed to make the playoffs?
drasco036
A lot of people. How many teams did cano actually play for his last season?
kidbryant
Cano played for 3 teams last season.
Fever Pitch Guy
drasco – Cano played for 3 teams in his final season.
But Oliver Drake played for FIVE teams in 2018, and didn’t play in the postseason.
Troy Percival's iPad
Dave Kingman played for 4 teams in 1977 without making the Postseason
deepseamonster32
have any 2 players played together for 3 different teams in the same year and failed to make the playoffs?
BobbyAyala94
Jeff Kent and Jose Vizcaino got traded together twice but it was over a couple seasons.
MWeller77
It wasn’t the playoffs and it only involved playing for 2 teams, but remember when Joel Youngblood got a hit for the Mets AND the Expos on the same day?
Even better, the hits were off Fergie Jenkins and Steve Carlton
jdgoat
Giolito and Lopez go from non playoff caliber team to non playoff caliber team to other non playoff caliber team.
BrianStrowman9
All 3 impending free agents now get to work with Cleveland’s pitching coaches heading into free agency. Not a terrible outcome.
kellin
Moore doesn’t really need coaching helping. He’s been very solid middle relief and will help the Guardians a lot. Lopez has also been generally pretty solid as well.
CO Guardening
Willis as a pitching coach is pretty hands off. So while they may not get “coaching” I’m sure they’ll benefit from game plan, guidance, etc.
Clevelandian
I disagree
BrianStrowman9
Wow. & absorb the salaries. Not much of a season left but certainly didn’t peg Cleveland as the team.
Rexhudler86
They cost 500k to 1 million probably Gioloto so it’s not crazy.
BrianStrowman9
No not at all. But Cleveland typically shuffles out salary. They traded away payroll at the deadline. Not typically the team that absorbs salary and rentals.
Unique situation to get good players for nothing but money though.
Rexhudler86
The new rules should require international money and a single a prospect or something, it’s going to make the deadline dull. You can get players for pennies on the dollar if your still in it so why trade prospects at the deadline, but I agree it made sense to add for the price
YourDreamGM
Cleveland can afford 150 million payroll easily. They don’t get rid of players because they can’t afford them. They get rid of them because it’s the smart move.
LFGSD619
Getting rid of Bauer wasn’t smart. Getting rid of Clevinger only looks smart in hindsight.
YourDreamGM
Both smart moves at time. Both were ticking bombs.
BrianStrowman9
Cleveland gets rid of guys to shed payroll and maximize value all the time. Keeps the competitive window open longer. Bieber is probably next. They don’t hold key pieces into free agency very often.
LFGSD619
Bauer won the Cy Young in 2020 and all the guys Cleveland got in that trade has since either left as FA or been DFA’d. They lost that trade.
Hindsight that Clevinger was a ticking bomb. No team has ever traded their #3 or higher starter in-season and made it to the WS that year.
YourDreamGM
High tj odds at time of trade. Best to take excellent prospect return. Bauer isn’t for everyone. Maybe they knew about his personal life. Maybe they just didn’t like him. Would he have won a cy young in a full season vs east and west teams? Either way it was time to trade him. They don’t like letting people leave for nothing. Most prospects don’t amount to anything.
LFGSD619
Who besides you says he had high TJ odds at time of trade? The Guardians didn’t know he would need TJ and if they did then A. J. Preller probably should have filed a grievance to have the trade nixed.
Bauer might not have won the CYA if they hadn’t traded him becuse he’d in the same league as Shane Bieber but he would have helped more in 2020 than all the dudes he was traded for combined. And none of them are with the Guardians anymore so they didn’t “win later” either.
YourDreamGM
Go watch him pitch. Stuff wasn’t as good as past years. That’s a good indicator of future injury. Can’t file a grievance because of odds. At time of trade he was healthy. Even if they didn’t think there was increased risk it was still time to trade him. Either extend or trade. No reason to let someone walk away for nothing or comp pick if you can get a offer you like.
YourDreamGM
Who cares about the Bauer trade results. You don’t win every trade. Guy was a major pr risk. After he threw the ball over the outfield fence every team knew this. Cleveland probably knew much more. They probably traded him for whatever they could get. Teams weren’t offering what his talent alone was worth. They just wanted him gone.
LFGSD619
@YourDreamGM…
“Go watch him pitch. Stuff wasn’t as good as past years.”
I did and he was their 2nd or 3rd best starter that year depending on what you think of Zach Plesac.
“Can’t file a grievance because of odds.”
But you can if the Guardians knew something and didn’t tell other teams.
“At time of trade he was healthy.”
You sure about that?
“Even if they didn’t think there was increased risk it was still time to trade him.”
Nope!
“No reason to let someone walk away for nothing or comp pick if you can get a offer you like.”
Well sure there is. Teams lose good players to free agency literally every single offseason. The Guardians were trying to win a championship that year. A championship will always always always always always always always always ALWAYS be worth more than a prospect that has less than a 10% chance of helping you at some point down the road.
“Who cares about the Bauer trade results?”
The Guardians sure should.
“Guy was a major pr risk.”
No he wasn’t.
“Teams weren’t offering what his talent alone was worth. They just wanted him gone.”
Yes and how did that work out for them? Don’t say “Great because of what came out later.” That was after he would have been a free agent anyway. Had they not traded them they’d have had another CYA contender in their rotation for 2020.
YourDreamGM
Just because he was their 2nd or 3rd best pitcher doesn’t mean he was the same.
This is true.
Nope. I didn’t examine him.
Yes. Cleveland usually trades players at arb 2 or 3.
Hopefully they took best offer available.
Agree to disagree. I think a guy who instead of handing a ball to manager and throws it over the fence has some issues that make him more of a pr risk than the typical player. And I have no idea how he was off the field. If I did I might consider him even more of a risk. Dodgers certainly didn’t want to have him around.
They didn’t get much from a trade. It happened before and will happen again.
gentlemanof4outs
I saw at least one writer comment shortly after the Clevinger trade that all of the movement in his delivery elevated his injury risk. He also had the Covid protocol violation, not sure how much that factored in.
If you’re going to mention where all the players Cleveland received for Bauer are now, it’s at least relevant that Bauer isn’t in MLB now (related to talent or not).
LFGSD619
“Just because he was their 2nd or 3rd best pitcher doesn’t mean he was the same.”
Doesn’t matter. They didn’t have 3 starting pitchers better than him.
“Yes. Cleveland usually trades players at arb 2 or 3.”
And how has that worked out for them? When’s the last time they won a championship?
“Agree to disagree. I think a guy who instead of handing a ball to manager and throws it over the fence has some issues that make him more of a pr risk than the typical player. And I have no idea how he was off the field. If I did I might consider him even more of a risk. Dodgers certainly didn’t want to have him around.”
Again you are letting stuff that happened after he was on track for FA color your opinion of him. That hadn’t happened yet. The fact of the matter is trading him made the Guardians WORSE for 2019-20 despite the fact that they were ostensibly trying to contend in those years.
Getting rid of good players when you are trying to contend is NOT a smart move. If something is working, you don’t screw with it.
LFGSD619
@gentlemanof4outs Bauer would have been a free agent before all of that happened. Wouldn’t have been the Guardians’ problem. Maybe they go all the way with him on the team in 2020, maybe they don’t. Either way, after that, they tag him with the QO, thank him for his service and show him the door.
Avory
Both moves were brilliant short and long term moves and any astute observer knew it at the time.
Avory
No one in the whole, wide world pined over the loss of Trevor Bauer…except you.
He won a Cy Young in a Mickey Mouse covid year, big freaking deal. I don’t elevate Shane Bieber to the hall of greatness because he did the same thing.
Give it a rest. Cleveland’s moves have been nothing short of brilliant when it comes to dealing guys who are either more trouble than they’re worth or who will be paid more than they’re worth.
Unclemike1525
Just a guess here but when you have guy who beats women and plays with drones, Can a future episode of 20/20 NOT be on the table at some point?
LFGSD619
@Avory The Guardians lost the Bauer trade in both the short and long term. There is no denying that.
As for the Clevinger trade, it may have worked as a short term trade if the Guardians had a crystal ball like you do and knew Clevinger would need TJ but the problem with that is they didn’t. So unless you can name one time that a team traded someone equivalent to Mike Clevinger at the deadline and made the World Series THAT YEAR you have no argument.
If Cleveland’s moves have been “nothing short of brilliant” as you say why haven’t they made it past the ALDS since 2016? Why is that?
LFGSD619
@UncleMike1526 You mean like this woman? ifunny.co/picture/found-it-dui-lindsey-hill-riding…
Deleted Userr
Maybe long term but definitely not short term.
AM21
Guardian Angels.
i like al conin
Haha so good
Brick House Coffee Tables Inc
I don’t see why they would take Giolito, since he would never sign with them in the off-season so it’s not even a tryout. Lopez, however, I can see.
LordD99
This is a September move as they attempt to win the division. They likely believe they can get Giolito back on track. Wouldn’t bet against them. It’s a core strength.
Rexhudler86
Gioloto had a lot of errors in the field behind him when he was pitching with the angels, and he looked ticked off screaming in his glove, and would implode after
CKinSTL
They need a starting pitcher to finish out 2023 and they are 5 games back for the division lead. Seems pretty straight forward.
YourDreamGM
Why wouldn’t he sign with them? Not that Cleveland would be interested in out bidding other teams. They want him for September and October if they can go on a run or twins fall flat.
LFGSD619
They’re making a run on the Twins and first in the division. That’s why.
erickohli
As an Angels fan this is embarrassing.
kellin
Its not even embarrassing, its soul crushing. I’m looking at what the team has now and I don’t even see a half-decent bullpen. They should have kept Lorenzen (I said as much), and they should have kept Moore, but apparently they prefer the long history of having a team with a bullpen full of garbage. This off season, Minassian has to grab all the good bullpen pieces or next year is worthless, too.
deepseamonster32
kellin, I’m sorry. regardless of what minasian does, unless he beats Moreno in a deathmatch, next year looks worthless for you guys. it’s just…. sad.
like, honestly, I’m an M’s fan. i HATE the angels. but this is just sad.
i like al conin
@deepseamonster, how does next year “look worthless” for the Angels? Most of their hitters (6th in runs scored in MLB) are young and inexpensive, they’ll have Ohtani’s $30 mil to reinvest and Arte keeps a top 10 payroll. They could be competitive if they stay healthy
deepseamonster32
Los Angeles of Anaheim is 12th in runs scored. And ok, you’ll have $30 million to invest. BFD. You won’t have Shohei Ohtani!!
i like al conin
The Angels are .04 runs per game behind the Mariners. They basically score the same. If it wasn’t for injuries the Angels would be competing for a playoff spot. Shohei will be gone but they’ll still have payroll to compete. You sound ridiculous saying BFD.
deepseamonster32
$30 million is not going to replace Ohtani. Some of those injury troubles (Rendon and Trout) are not going away, and you don’t develop pitchers like Seattle does. Los Angeles of Anaheim has the money to avoid 100 losses, but Moreno only spends on big money contracts. He needs to pay for player development.
But, hey, might as well believe in your team. I respect that.
flamingbagofpoop
They couldn’t be competitive with one of the best players on the planet
i like al conin
Appreciate the thoughts. Agree $30 mil won’t replace Ohtani but it could replace about half of him in one SP or hitter. They now have so many low cost hitters so that money saved in a top 10 payroll could be used elsewhere. We can agree Rendon is a sunk cost. I’m not saying they’ll win the WS but they have a path to contention without Ohtani, if they stay healthy
outinleftfield
With these guys moved and the others that become FA at the end of the season the Angels have a $118 million payroll in 2024. That gives them $123 million to spend before going over the CBT level next season.
outinleftfield
The $30 million they save on Ohtani is just a small part of the $123 million Minasian will have to spend this offseason.
And Ohtani may be coming back. No one really knows what he will do.
deepseamonster32
$120 million on 7 players. Doesn’t include arbitration that could reach push them to $170-180 million.
BaseballisLife
That $118 million includes all pre-arb players, so 14 players. They have 7 players that will be arbitration eligible and they will max out at around $16-18 million. That’s a total of 21 players. No, not all of them will make the opening day roster.
Sometimes it worth it to look beyond the totals at the bottom of the page on BR and actually investigate who the players are. Ward, Sandoval, Rengifo, Suarez, Barria, Canning, Quijada are the arb eligibles. If they all double 2023 that is still less than $21 million. 118 + 21 does not = 170-180.
When all is said and done the Angels will have around $100 million to fill 6-7 spots on their team.
deepseamonster32
$119.45 for 7 contracts and 2 buyouts. 3 of those contracts are Rendon, Fletcher and Stassi.
The Angels have never had a $233 million opening day payroll. And they’re not going to have one unless by some miracle Ohtani stays.
deepseamonster32
I’ll give ya it ain’t $170. The Angels have 5 guys getting about $21 million.
12 contracts (not necessarily 12 players), $140 million.
JoeBrady
That gives them $123 million to spend before going over the CBT level next season.
============================
After arbitration, they will have ~ $87M to spend. They have a little talent, with a couple of holes to fill. I don’t think they’ll be bad, but just like every other season, .500 will be the opening bid.
If Ohtani returns, and cost $50M, they will have a slightly weaker version of their 2023 team, and only $37M left in the piggy bank.
MacGromit
@kellin
My fear is that this will embolden nut job clowns like Johnny Boy Angelos to pull these tricks in the future with the O’s.
So despite the fact that after Sept 1st, players cannot be added (w/o injuries or faux injuries) to the post season roster — does it mean that players that get removed from the receiving teams then have the opportunity to sign and play the rest of the regular season w other teams?
Ex. Guardians will have to make room for these ex-Angels. Can those then ex- Guardians roll to another team, like the Twins? Wouldn’t that be a mess. lol
Pads Fans
The O’s will be in contention for a few years. No chance they are dumping salary when they are out of the race at the end of August.
JoeBrady
pull these tricks in the future with the O’s.
===========================
Insane comment. The O’s have one of the best programs in baseball and are light years ahead of the Angels. And since the O’s have no interest in skirting under the tax, how is this even remotely analogous?
Pads Fans
Lorenzen. FA at seasons end. Moore FA at seasons end.
i like al conin
Why? They’re out of it and it’s the only move left to improve the team. They’re doing their job as rational actors.
kellin
@i like – How does letting Moore and Lopez go for nothing improve the team? It’s worsened it by a long shot.
i like al conin
Kellin, please read the article. He explains how it helps the team. They get salary relief, go under the tax threshold and get a higher draft pick for Ohtani. That’s better than letting them walk for nothing.
JoeBrady
Kellin, please read the article.
======================
I understand less and less of the human species each year. The move is 100% logical, it is spelled out in the article, and folks like Kellin still don’t understand it.
YourDreamGM
Angels are finished. Dump salary and increase draft odds. They can sign these guys back in a few months if they want them back.
Pads Fans
Why? The Angels had no chance to pick up 11.5 games in the next 28.
SOOOOOO many benefits of doing this.
#1 the players put on waivers are happier and other FA see this and say that was a class move letting them go to possibly play in the playoffs.
#2 they save $7+ million this season.
#3 they drop below the CBT threshold.
#4 because they dropped below the CBT threshold they
A save 1-2 million on fines.
B Get a better draft pick for anyone they give a QO to.
C give up less for any FA they sign next season that have a QO.
Other than some fans whose feelings are hurt, there is no downside for the Angels. A very smart move.
deepseamonster32
it can be both a smart move by the numbers, while also being a complete embarrassment and sign of the frightening rot within the Los Angeles of Anaheim organization.
Pads Fans
There is NO downside other than b-hurt fans.
BrianStrowman9
The ugly part is because some of these guys were just acquired for real prospects a month ago. It’s a smart decision considering their positioning now.
Shohei Ohtani was the only reason this team bought. They had a ~10% playoff chance at the deadline. It was a Hail Mary to get him to buy in.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
This probably makes it less likely that Ohtani stays is the downside.
i like al conin
Ohtani is not going to make a signing decision based on the Angels releasing several free agents a month early.
Pads Fans
Most people on here have said there was no chance Ohtani would sign back with the Angels anyway.
I think it doesn’t change Ohtani’s decision in any way because of the injury that will likely cost him part of 2024 as a hitter and all of 2024 as a pitcher.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
I do not and have never claimed to know what Ohtani will do. But I can’t imagine this will help the Angels sign him. He wants to win.
Pads Fans
Have you ever heard a player say they want to lose?
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
No. But trying to lure Ohtani was the whole reason they bought at the deadline, was it not?
outinleftfield
They showed him they were willing to go all in. It didn’t work, in part because Ohtani was hurt.
deepseamonster32
yeah, the Angels went all in. Now they got a terrible farm system, they haven’t won with Ohtani and Trout, they don’t really have much else on the roster besides an aging Trout, and you think he’s going to expect things to improve enough to stay? Literal insanity.
BaseballisLife
They had a terrible farm system before and now they have more money to spend.
deepseamonster32
They don’t have much major league talent to start from. And so what if the Angels have money to spend. Even if they have what you think they do (they very likely don’t), they’ve spent money before lololol
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Is it really going all in though if they dump everyone (well… all the pending FA’s who are worth anything except Ohtani) for nothing one month later?
Avory
Really now. As if the Angels weren’t already an embarrassment. This recent action was actually the first astute thing they’ve done in awhile. It would have been colossally stupid to try and avoid further “embarrassment.”
Pads Fans
Another benefit is not being 2nd time over the CBT threshold when they go over next season
Deleted Userr
@Pads Fans Are you ever going to use your outinleftfield account again? Just wondering. Troll
In nurse follars
Williams may have a knee injury, Quantrall may not be effective, Bieber and McKenzie are not likely to contribute so, why not? At least Giolito has a chance. As to the bullpen if lopez can fill some tough innings, again, why not try?
hsantana
and Moore! He fits pretty well.
Giolito might eat some innings, basically what the Guardians tried to do with Thor, until he gave 3 HR per game avg.
kellin
Moore and Lopez are both quality relievers, they will help the bullpen out a lot.
YourDreamGM
Excellent move. These guys are all good and cheap. Cleveland fans should be excited.
Libpwnr
And now we’re all shocked that they ended up on a bad team. Everyone over the outrage of trash players being let go of now?
iverbure
That’s what I was thinking. Outraged that a couple guys are going to affect a playoff race in a huge way.
foppert1
Cody Ross. 2010. Placed on August waivers by Marlins, claimed by Giants to prevent him getting to the Dodgers. Marlins didn’t pull him backs to save money and so Giants stuck with him. NLCS MVP a month or so later. Awesome !
LordD99
I do wonder if they wanted and expected to get all three. Teams have to put in claims not knowing if they’ll get a specific player, so they put in multiple claims. They’ll need to clear three roster spots now.
BrianStrowman9
1 open spot currently. 3 catchers so you’d figure Gallagher or Haase is toast. Maybe a 60 day IL move?
benhen77
Blocking the Twins.
martras
The Twins would not have claimed them when all of their starters are better already.
benhen77
Lopez and Moore are both relievers, now. Not 2019 anymore.
Col_chestbridge
This is chaos and I love it. All those better teams thinking they were getting a free upgrade, and instead a team just one spot below the Angels on the wire grabs them.
ChangedName
Guardians 2023 season is pure chaos, selling in July when they’re close to the Twins, now adding pieces through waivers the last few weeks when they’re basically done.
hsantana
They couldn’t find any trades that they liked. Offense was hard to get.
They are just 5 gb, and these 3 buster an already solid pitching.
Good move. Not even close.
YourDreamGM
They didn’t sell they bought for the future. Bell wasn’t doing anything for them. Civale isn’t a difference maker and will never be better than what he was. Excellent sell high.
Oddball Hererra
This is idiotic. I don’t mind teams dumping players on waivers to save money, but you have to move teams to the back of waivers after they make a claim.
mohoney
That is far too difficult to accomplish when multiple claims on multiple players are made on the same day. What would have been the process to determine which Angel ended up in Cleveland and which Angels went further down the priority list?
Oddball Hererra
It’s not rocket science, have them state a waiver priority
BaseballisLife
That would make the waiver wire like a draft that changes in order each round. And it could take days. Its not simple.
mohoney
They knew they would get all three. No other sub-.500 team was in a logical position to make these claims.
Pete'sView
I thought, if you get one player on the claim, you can’t get a second until everyone else passes. Guess I was wrong, Cleveland still might not make it to the playoffs, but this is quite a haul and worth the effort.
stymeedone
I thought that, too. Once you made a claim, you went to last in line. Either that’s not the case, or nobody else made a claim. Can any one explain this? Does Cleveland go to the end of the line TOMORROW?
Pads Fans
The Athletic article about this explains all that. Each waiver is separate, so if the A’s wanted all those players they could have had them all.
rememberthecoop
And Jed Hoyer breathes a sigh of relief. Now he doesn’t have to lie to the media about why they didn’t claim anyone. “We just didn’t want to interfere with the chemistry…”
SteveC
Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about Chaim Bloom
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Why? Cubs may be going to postseason, Sox are not
SteveC
Whether or not he should’ve put a claim(s) in on any of the players waived is another thing, but I’d like to think the media would at least ask him if he did.
Unclemike1525
Whether or not Hoyer put in a claim or not I’m happy they didn’t get them. The only one I would have wanted the Cubs to get would of been Lopez as he could of taken Palencia’s spot because he was rushed to the bigs. As far as Moore goes, Yeah he would of been decent but the whole gotta have a LH reliever thing is Passe’. With the 3 batter rule doesn’t really apply. Cubs have a shot at getting Hughes back and Leiter has been fine all year and Smyly is decent for an inning here or there until Hughes gets back. Cubs are going to either make it or not with the guys who got them this far.
deepseamonster32
Giolito and Lopez should just get married at this point
BobbyAyala94
They are the modern version of Jeff Kent and Jose Vizcaino.
User 899214610
Angels error in your favor, collect 3 pitchers
MadSkillsUniversity
Wow, that’s interesting. That will be strange for both of them suddenly being with your rival.. Their heads must be spinning. Crazy what they went through since being traded to the A’s.
brewers214
thaugt we where going to the playoffs WELL I GUESS NOT
CIPERSPECTIVE
Perfect move for the Guards AT THIS MOMENT. Bad move to accept Thor. Bad news to accept Segura as savings on Bell only guaranteed if he exercises his option which doesn’t look as likely now, does it, given his excellent performance in Miami? Only bad in these is that they still haven’t upgraded the offense and which pitchers DFA’d/sent to minors to get to 14 pitchers on active roster by tomorrow. So, they think Laureano (bad move, too) is better than Renfro and Grichuk? Explains a lot about why their offense sucks!
Samuel
Laureano has done very well with Cleveland and has helped them win some games.
Watch the games or read the play-by-play of games and get your head out of the spreadsheets – they misrepresent what a player is doing on the field of play to help – or hurt – his team in winning games.
kellin
Ugh. Giving away Lopez and Moore makes me really disappointed in the Angels. They literally have no good middle relief pitching. Probably the worst of any team, now. *checks roster* Oh, ok, so Soriano is the only good middle relief pitcher the team has.
i like al conin
They are free agents in a month. At this point it doesn’t matter.
kellin
Moore and Lopez should have been re-signed. This is how you handle a quality team. Tell me what the bullpen will look like next year without them? Looks bad, and I don’t have faith they will sign anyone good in the off season. Arte needs to sell the team so someone can put together a proper front office.
YourDreamGM
They can still sign them. Players aren’t giving you a discount with only 2 months to free agency. Smart move by Angels. Can’t say that often.
Deleted Userr
Still can re-sign Moore and Lopez.
kellin
Just because “they can” doesn’t mean “they will.” I’ll bet you $20 neither will be back. How often do players come back to a team after they’re traded/waived ?
YourDreamGM
Most players go wherever they can make the most $. If LA pays them significantly enough more than a contender in a lower tax state I would imagine they would love to be Angels in 2024.
Deleted Userr
@kellin How often do teams make a sincere effort to bring back a player they traded or waived? If they are serious about bringing them back there is no evidence that trading them will put the team at any disadvantage relative to any other teams. It’s quite simple really.
Pete'sView
YourDreamGM — Not sure anyone would “love to be (with) Angels in 2024.”
YourDreamGM
Majority of people want to be where they can make the most money. Will the Angels outbid teams that are much stronger contenders? Doubtful. But the players would love to sign with them if they did. They should give them player options so they can prove their love.
Plugnplay
Hey Pete, false! Show them the money and they will come. They’ll even go to the A’s. They just don’t shell it out.
BTW, see Ohtani, who’d he pick. Haha…
Samuel
The team will be coming out of a rebuild stage.
They have a quality young C and SS – which is what you build your position players around. They have a good young 1B and unlocked the potential in Mickey Moniak. Most importantly, Perry has been loading up on young pitchers for the past 3 years. Of the Angels top 20 prospects most are pitchers. Their young starters are fine.
They can’t play with the Astros, Mariners or Rangers for the next few years, so they shouldn’t bother to try. Get those youngsters up to the majors, and they can always trade pitchers – particularly that are under team control – for position players.
Perry Minasian was a big reason the Braves were able to build the organization and farm system that has made them one of the best teams in MLB for years now. The Angels are now well in advance of where the Braves were 3-4 years ago. Arte needs to keep hands off and let the rebuild that has been going on behind the scenes play itself out over the next few years.
JoeBrady
Just because “they can” doesn’t mean “they will.”
============================
You’re all over the place. Neither Moore nor Lopez is likely to re-sign with the Angels simply because they spent two months on the team.
You’re just looking for a reason to complain.
Camden453
Kind of lame, not letting them go to a playoff contender
YourDreamGM
Cleveland is a playoff contender.
tigerfan1968
My guess is the Twins put in a claim on Giolito but not the other two. Gio is the key guy here.
It would be more concerning if it was a 1 game lead.
YourDreamGM
Twins got the division locked up then if they have 8 relievers better than these 2.
Sky14
More likely the opposite. Twins starting pitching is strong, their bullpen is hit or miss. Honestly think Giolito will hurt the Guards more than help. Moore and Lopez are decent pickups though.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Hopefully he has more success than just being the revolving door the Sox have had the past few seasons.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
The real problem is not that a losing team picked up players off the waiver wire. The real problem is letting a team like the Twins or Guardians go the postseason when the Blue Jays or Rangers might miss out.
If we accept a balanced MLB schedule, then we should honor the best teams going to the postseason no matter what division they are in.
The Centrals in both leagues are huge flaws and have created unbalanced records among teams.
MacGromit
@Doom
Didn’t we use to have 95-100 game winners excluded from the playoffs before the wildcards?
YourDreamGM
Divisions are better for fan interest and that is better for making profit. $ is what owners care about most.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
If we have divisions, fine, but get rid of the balanced schedule because then divisions are pointless.
stymeedone
If we can accept unbalanced Markets, we can accept division winners going to the playoffs. Spread the income of the entire league evenly (balanced), then we can ignore divisions. Can I assume you’re a fan of a large market club?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
It’s more that I’m not a fan of the balanced schedule. I’m okay with divisions if the game utilizes more division matches than a balanced schedule.
THEY LIVE!!!
Why didn’t Cleveland get Renfroe or Grichuk too?? They need offence too!
YourDreamGM
Both are slumping. Grichuk is only a weak platoon. Every team passed on him so hard to ?.
CKinSTL
I bet they they considered Renfroe.. but I think they really like what they’ve gotten out of Kole Calhoun. It is probably a situation where they couldn’t have both and just chose Kole.
YourDreamGM
A+++++++++ Cleveland. Trade deadline winners!
Champs64
The moves by the Guardians and the Reds have given me a chance to enjoy the rest of the season. Hoping they both bring some excitement to their fan base and to all fans of the game.
CKinSTL
Worst case scenario.. Cleveland spent a few million bucks on veteran arms to take some of the load off of their young starters and key bullpen guys.
The Guardians aren’t in an ideal spot, being 5 games behind the Twins.. but plenty of baseball left and 3 head-to-head games to go. Plus they are getting Naylor and Quant back and Tito’s teams usually have a decent hot stretch in the latter months. Maybe it gets interesting.
mlbdodgerfan2015
Guardians are still not making playoffs. Puzzling moves. Also, these claims are all filed independently? If not, I’d think if you win a claim over another team that also files a claim, you should get bumped down? Not sure how this process works.
CKinSTL
Giolito seems like a no-brainer for Cleveland. Their rotation has been hampered with injuries all year long. Williams just left a start early with a leg injury. Williams, Bibee and Allen are all likely approaching inning limits for the year. Quant is coming off the IL again and Curry just had a short start. They really don’t have any good rotation depth options at AAA.
They’ve also had to push their key bullpen guys all year.. Adding Lopez and Moore will help ease the workload on their backend guys.
Pads Fans
Each claim is separate.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
So Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez remain a package deal. I wonder if they will sign with the same team this offseason.
CKinSTL
That’s an interesting point… I’m not so sure that they are actually different people. Maybe it is one guy playing dress up so he can collect two paychecks.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Chortle
acoss13
Cleveland is a good spot for Giolito to land in. One of the few teams in baseball that can course-correct him, and probably help his free agency this offseason.
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
@A. J. Preller why pass on Giolito, Lopez and Renfroe?
kellin
They’re all free agents at the end of the year and the Padres are out of it, so why add needlessly to the budget?
JoeBrady
so why add needlessly to the budget?
===========================
That boat’s left the dock. If you are spending $292, you might as well spend $296M, They have 7 games left with SF. If they take 6 of 7, then it’s a fight.
Pads Fans
Guardians are 5 back in the Central and 11.5 back in the WC. So why?
Adrian Gonzalez German Marquez
Doesn’t cost them any prospects, they were nowhere near the luxury tax line and they play the Twins three more times this season, all at home.
YourDreamGM
No reason to attend or watch games if you can’t over come 5 games with a month left. Might as well not even play them.
Don’t think they are going after the wild card.
JoeBrady
3 game series at home v MN. Sometimes you need to swing for the fences.
outinleftfield
Isn’t that what the Angels did at the deadline when they were 5 back of a playoff spot?
JoeBrady
1-While I didn’t mind the Angels giving it a shot, they were trying to catch 3 teams ahead of them. They basically had to beat all three. A single 3-game sweep over any of them likely would not have helped.
2-The Angels gave up prospects. The Indians gave up nothing but money.
Two things very dissimilar.
BaseballisLife
Prospects are question marks. If you are counting on any of them to make it as average or above in the bigs you are on a fools errand. Trying to draw to an inside straight. Even the very top prospects are a crap shoot. Less than 1 in 5 odds. Of the prospects the Angels gave up, only one is even in that category. The others are more in the 1 in 1000 category.
JoeBrady
BaseballisLife4 hours ago
Prospects are question marks
=========================
That has nothing to do with anything.
1-No one in the world has ever claimed prospects are sure things.
2-Every player is a question mark. Just for fun add up the cost and return for last year’s top-10 free agents. 22.9 bWAR for > $300M.
3-Just because a prospect is not guaranteed has nothing to do with them having value. Just because I am a generous RS fan, I will offer you Verdugo and his semi-guaranteed 3 WAR in exchange for Jackson Holliday, who is not a lock for anything.
outinleftfield
Giolito stunk and the Angels completely collapsed or no one would be questioning a trade of two prospects for a rental of two major league players that were better than league average in an effort to reach the playoffs.. Even if the Angels just stayed in contention at few games out, no one would have said a word about that trade. Lopez pitched very well for the Angels.
Neither of the prospects the Angel’s gave up in that trade were in the top 10. In fact none were in the top 50 or even top 75. None of the others were ranked at all and none were above a 40 FV. In other words, no value.
Of those two, Quero is far and away the better prospect. A top 100 prospect has a 17% chance of ever being a league average player in the majors and that includes those top 10 omes you mentioned. I will go with the under on Quero for the reasons I mentioned. The odds are Bush will never be more than a middle reliever.
Quero is #84 and sinking. A catcher with practically no power and serious questions about his defense and ability to call games. His only value is his bat and that is just hitting for average. Bush is done. He has reached his level of incompetency in AA. Watch his games if you don’t believe my assessment.
Verdugo had parts of 3 seasons of MLB experience with a .282/.335/.449/.784 over 488 PA and 12 DRS track record at the time of the trade. He was not a prospect at all. Especially not one in AA.. Really bad comparison.
outinleftfield
Nothing dissimilar about going for it. Same number of games back. More than twice as many games against the teams in front of them than the Guardians have now. Twice as many games to make up the difference.
The Angels gave up guys that could not help them in the majors.
As you have seen, the team is more than willing to call guys up from any level that have even a shot at helping the big league team. Quero is sinking as a prospect, has no power, and has questionable defense and game calling skills. Bush is done.
CO Guardening
Wow.
AlistairC
“It’s a bad look for MLB to see such a brazenly non-competitive move by a team…”
I’m only okay with what the Angels did because the players were pending free agents and season ends in a month. Get that they had just made a bunch of trades, but they fell out of contention afterwards, so it’s more of an accelerated off-season at that point than a team giving up their core early.
YourDreamGM
Whoever said that is clueless. A third of the league gives up on contention before the season even starts. By trade deadline half the league has given up. Angels actually bought. It didn’t work out. They are one of the last teams to give up on being competitive. They should have given up at trade deadline. It’s a great look that they kept trying to contend when most said they should have traded Ohtani a month ago lol! Angels are too competitive. Refused to give up against all odds. Took losing Ohtani and having no chance of playoffs for them to come to senses and actually give up.
i like al conin
AliStairC totally agree. This is no different than in other years when teams do the same thing but acquire lottery ticket “prospects” that have little to no chance of making it. The Angels just didn’t do it under that cover.
Reynaldo
They need Bader and Renfroe mroe than they need these pitchers
CKinSTL
I was wondering if they might go after Renfroe.. I think Calhoun is working out well, so they just decided to stick with him.
They absolutely needed a starter though. I’m not surprised at all that they grabbed those three.
RedsArmy
And the Reds needed the pitching far more than Bader and Renfroe…
Reynaldo
Reds were behind Guardians on waivers priority, so they didn’t have a choice. But Guardians definitely had a choice here, and they chose to not improve their league worst offense.
Reynaldo
Confounding that they didn’t think they needed Bader and Renfroe, when they had priority over the Reds.
Wren
process would seem more fair if each team can take one player at a time.
mohoney
Not sure why this is such a bad thing for the sport. The Angels were done, and Cleveland made a ballsy move to try and compete with Minnesota instead of just playing out the string.
Tribefan4life
Bader might’ve been a good fit in the outfield and a good bat. Hopefully these three will help the Guards down the stretch into the final month of the regular season.
Tony P
Never understood the Civale trade
Samuel
True that.
Are you talking from a Cleveland viewpoint or a Tampa Bay one?
CKinSTL
In the context of this season, I completely agree. The Guardians were within striking distance of a playoff spot and need to protect their young rotation arms.
I guess they just thought it was too good of an opportunity to pass up. Civale is a solid 3rd or 4th starter and has a history of minor injuries. Under normal circumstances, trading that type of player for a top-100 position player in the upper minors seems like a potential steal.. Barring trades/injuries, Civale might find it difficult to crack the 2024 Guardians rotation.
Deleted Userr
Trading Civale was just stupid. What is the number Pads Fans and his many burner accounts keeps citing about the percentage of prospects that become everyday players?
CKinSTL
Teams can generally overvalue prospects.. but a solid talent development pipeline is key to any organization looking for sustained success. Any individual prospect comes with considerable risks, regardless of their tools and ranking..
I suppose the Civale example is an interesting one to use to downplay the value of prospects.. Civale was a prospect not too long ago. Now he was pushed out of the 2024 Guardians rotations by three prospects (Williams, Bibee and Allen). Just from the perspective of pure talent, it was difficult to envisioning a fit for Civale in the 2024 rotation.
Deleted Userr
The thing is the Guardians are trying to win a championship NOW. When is the last time a team traded Aaron Civale (or an equivalent player) at the deadline and won (or even made) the World Series that year?
CKinSTL
Maybe at the start of the year they viewed themselves as possible playoff contenders.. but too much went awry. They were not close at the deadline and the Civale trade was a clear signal they were not gunning for a 2023 run.
I don’t disagree that Cleveland has better playoff odds with Civale on the club.. but those odds are miserably low either way.
I’m not a huge fan of the trade, personally.. They definitely could have used Civale to spread out the pitching workload and then just dealt him in the offseason. Thr FO just saw a sell-high moment and apparently got a guy they think is worth it. We will see how it pans out.
Deleted Userr
A team that isn’t gunning for a playoff run doesn’t claim Giolito, Lopez and Moore. Even if it did cost them zero prospects.
Avory
@CKinStL
I get that the front office saw what you did: Aaron’s place in a future rotation might be tenuous; his injury history was worrisome; CLE’s August schedule was daunting; Manzardo was a top-end talent too difficult to pass up for a team struggling for offensive talent, and an acquisition like that is rarely is available for a back-end starter.
Having said all that, I hated the trade because it was the first time I ever saw this front office selling out its team on the field so blatantly. There’s a reason the front office had to fly to Houston in the aftermath. The team was pissed, and rightfully so. CLE was a game out and yes, the season had been difficult and the road ahead was arduous, but the team had never stopped playing hard. There were numerous times the team could have folded up shop and they never did. Yeah, they never showed indications that they were capable of a hot streak, but they never succumbed to any long losing streaks either, which would have been easy to do.
So it was disappointing the front office ran up the white flag so cavalierly. They deal the one veteran they had in the rotation who was not only taking the ball every fifth day, but excelling, giving the team a chance to win. The rest of the rotation were rookies or plug-ins, and everyone knew the rookies had expiration dates. The team desperately needed not one, but TWO innings-eating veterans, capable of a 4.50 ERA’s (quality starts) but instead of GETTING one of those guys, they traded away one! Had CLE dealt Civale for Manzardo and turned around and acquired two other decent (not great, just decent) arms to replace him, then I would have grudgingly accepted the move. But basically giving up on the season when you’re a mere one game out of first–regardless of the upcoming schedule–with two months to go, was a sad, pathetic thing to do, especially with raucous home crowds indicating THEY hadn’t yet given up on this team.
Again, in a vacuum, the Civale deal made all the sense in the world given the premium prospect return and perhaps the organization was skeptical Civale would stay healthy. But such deals are never made in a laboratory, they are made in the real world, and it affected the team in the clubhouse and in the standings. So now, instead of maybe being three games out and finally getting hot, the team is five out and needing an even greater miracle. In an acknowledgment that they might have given up on this team far too quickly, or at least might have handled the Civale circumstances more creatively, the front office made these waiver claims, probably too late to really help much, but at least the grand poobahs didn’t let $3m stop them from giving this team one last gasp at it, even if they themselves helped apply the chokehold at the deadline.
Deleted Userr
Something like 17% of top 100 prospects ultimately become everyday position players/starting pitchers (ask Pads Fans/outinleftfield/websoulsurfer/BaseballisLife for the exact stat, he’s the one always repeating it). So the Guardians just sacrificed their chances of winning the WS this year for one guy with a 17% chance of turning into a major league regular at some point down the road.
Avory
To be fair to Cleveland, Manzardo is more like a Top 50 prospect (or better) increasing his odds for success, and Cleveland’s chances to win the World Series this year are a good deal lower than Manzardo’s future probabilities.
I still didn’t like the timing of the deal, mostly because it wasn’t accompanied by any effort to address the needs (immediate and impending) in the rotation.
Deleted Userr
Well now that they traded Civale their chances are zero.
Not a clever name
I have no issue with this sort of tanking, if you want to call it that. For a team like the angels the rest of this season is the equivalent to garbage time, and it’s not like the A’s where they started off in April looking to cut payroll. I see no reason why MLB should change the rule to avoid this sort of thing in the future. If anything it just ensures a larger pool of quality players available for teams that are contending and makes for a more exciting playoff stretch.
Rosstradamus
MLB what a clown show
mannyl101
Growing up as an Angel fan, this is really the most insane thing in the Arte Moreno ownership tenure in a multitude of insane things! Please sell the team! Please! And go away!
JoeBrady
this is really the most insane thing
==========================
It is actually one of the few things out of LA that is 100% logical.
rodcarew
Twins fans are hoping that this move will propel the Cleveland to win the division. Then the Twins will get rid of Baldummy and start over. Whoever wins the division is toast anyway so it’s no big deal.
Samuel
rodcarew;
Got to get rid of Derek Falvey and Thad Levine, bring in professional FO people, and have the owners family back off of Baseball Ops decisions.
Baldummy is a puppet of the FO the same as Boone with the Yankees and a few others. Look for Melvin to leave the Padres this offseason as he’s not a puppet and refuses to be one.
Avory
@Samuel
I’m not nearly as skeptical of Falvey and Levine as you are. In fact, one of the reasons I want CLE to pull out this division is for Minnesota to overreact by creating organizational upheaval. I think the Twins are on the right track, so I’d love to see them shove themselves off it. That would be exactly what Cleveland needs to dominate an otherwise barren division.
rodcarew
Twins fans are hoping that this move will propel Cleveland to win the division. Then the Twins will get rid of Baldummy and start over. Whoever wins the division is toast anyway so it’s no big deal.
DeepDownSouth
Indians spent too much for Giolito
LetTheGoodTimesROFL
Not your money so what do you care?
baseballteam
It’s all vicarious following baseball. It’s not our hits and pitches either but many of us enjoy following the spending just as everything else as entertainment.
DeepDownSouth
My point is Giolito is NOT the answer for any team. If Indians need a bad clubhouse player, then they got there man
DeepDownSouth
BTW, Gio will walk & why Giolito over Civale. WhiteSox knew what they didn’t have in Giolito & Sox only gave up Adam Eaton for him & Lopez
JoeBrady
Indians spent too much for Giolito
===================
In an adult convesation, a comment like that is usually followed by “because….”
Giolito looks exactly like a #3 SP, and $1.7M seem very reasonable.
Your turn.
DeepDownSouth
BTW, Gio & Lopez will walk & why Giolito over Civale. WhiteSox knew what they didn’t have in Giolito & Sox only gave up Adam Eaton for him & Lopez. Win win for WS. Bad clubhouse guy in Giolito. He’s for himself only. Indians will find out soon enough
CKinSTL
It’s funny how much grief the Guardians get for being cheap.. now they spent a very small sum of money and they spent too much. Can’t win.
Shawn W.
MLB Network reports that the Marlins also placed a claim on these three pitchers, but the Guardians had a slightly worse record.
baseballknower69
This is so fkin wild. MLB needs to do something about this, a limit on how many players a team can claim or something.
CKinSTL
I’m a Guardians fan and love the moves.. but it does seem unfair a team would have first priority on multiple players.
Avory
Why? That’s the way waivers have always worked. Why should the teams that are well-heeled or doing well get any shots at these guys? This isn’t a draft, this is a waiver system. It’s one of the few things in sports that reflects the need for competitive balance and we want to change it because ONE time a team like CLE can make room for three guys?
Domingo111
I like the move by the guardians. They are still unlikely to make the post season but who knows, if they play 7-3 over the next 10 and the twins play 3-7 they would be right back in the mix with like 15 games to go.
I don’t think that will happen but it is a chance to cheaply sneak into a playoff appearance in a weak division.
Samuel
Making up 5 games in September has been done so many times by teams that it’s no surprise when it happens. In fact, I’ve seen teams pick up far more than 5 games during the end of the stretch run.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Samuel with the simplistic save!
Bill nd
Will they do gor Cleveland what they did for the Angels?
St.Philly
Early results say yes, Moore and Lopez good, Giolito is human Manhattan Project.
But I Do
Adams is a hack.
If “but” comes at the start of the sentence, it should NOT have a comma after it.
“Meanwhile” should ONLY start the sentence. It should NOT come in the middle. Don’t break up subject and verb if it isn’t absolutely necessary. How do you get this right and then screw it up a paragraph later?
Adams needs to go.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Your not wrong, grand’ma.ma
Dumpster Divin Theo
Guardians turning to Gio: “whee!!!!”