The Pirates are continuing to dip into the upper tier of their prospect base, as both catcher Endy Rodriguez and middle infielder Liover Peguero are being called up from Triple-A, Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports (Twitter links). Rodriguez will be set to make his MLB debut, while Peguero is getting another look after appearing in a single game with the Pirates last season.
Rodriguez was a consensus top-55 prospect in preseason rankings from Baseball America (who had him 23rd), The Athletic’s Keith Law (34th) and MLB Pipeline and Baseball Prospectus (55th). In updated midseason rankings, BA has now dropped Rodriguez to 55th while Pipeline has elevated him up to 34th, which perhaps speaks more to the methodology of each list — for instance, Baseball America has already incorporated picks from the 2023 draft class into their rankings.
Regardless, Rodriguez’s first full year at Triple-A hasn’t been the full-fledged breakout that the Pirates would’ve preferred to see, even though the team has opted to give the call to the 23-year-old. Rodriguez has hit .268/.356/.415 with six homers over 315 plate appearances at Triple-A Indianapolis, with a slow start dampening his numbers. The last month has been a lot better for Rodriguez, however, as he has a .986 OPS over his last 93 PA, with more walks (13) than strikeouts (11).
This hot streak will now carry Rodriguez into the Show, and he’ll join fellow prospect Quinn Priester in what will likely be a dual debut on Monday, as Priester is already set to start against the Guardians. Between Rodriguez, Priester, and Henry Davis and Nick Gonzales already called up earlier this season, Pittsburgh’s youth movement is in full effect, and the remaining months of the 2023 campaign will provide an intriguing glimpse at what the Bucs hope is a future championship core.
Originally an international signing for the Mets, Rodriguez came to Pittsburgh as part of the three-team trade in January 2021 that sent Joe Musgrove to the Padres and Joey Lucchesi to New York. That swap has already been very beneficial for the Pirates in the form of star closer David Bednar, and if Rodriguez lives up to his prospect potential, the trade may be seen as one of the key building blocks of the franchise’s rebuild. Rodriguez was starting to hit in rookie ball even before the canceled 2020 minor league season, and his continued success led to a quick rise through three different levels of Pittsburgh’s farm system in 2022.
Rodriguez has displayed a knack for contact hitting and for getting on base throughout his minor league career, though his Isolated Power number has taken a notable drop in 2023. Even if he’ll have to work on that extra pop against big league pitching, Rodriguez’s switch-hitting profile is particularly promising from the catcher position.
It has become increasingly clear this season that the Pirates indeed view Rodriguez as a catcher, as he has played almost all of his Triple-A games behind the plate (with eight appearances at first base). Rodriguez had previously been deployed as a second baseman, left fielder, and right fielder earlier in his minor league career, as the Pirates explored how to best utilize Rodriguez’s athleticism, and also how to juggle playing time for Davis as a possible catcher of the future.
Since Davis has almost entirely been a right fielder during his brief time in the majors, it would seem like Pittsburgh’s plan is for Rodriguez to be a primary catcher and for Davis to be perhaps something of an overqualified backup — playing mostly every day in the outfield but also getting some occasional reps at catcher. Defensive specialist Austin Hedges figures to still be in the mix for playing time and as a veteran mentor to Rodriguez and Davis, while current backup catcher Jason Delay might be something of an odd man out.
The 22-year-old Peguero is ranked by MLB Pipeline as the seventh-best prospect in the Pirates’ farm system, and he drew top-100 attention from Pipeline, BA, and Prospectus prior to the 2022 campaign. Peguero had an uninspiring season at Double-A last year that still resulted in his one-game MLB debut, and thus far in 2023, he hit well enough in more Double-A action (.260/.333/.453 in 318 PA) to merit a promotion to Triple-A. Now, the Bucs are making another aggressive call-up, as Peguero is headed back to the majors after only seven games in Indianapolis.
Known for his excellent speed and throwing arm, Peguero might have a future at shortstop, though Oneil Cruz will have first dibs on the position once he returns from the 60-day injured list. Peguero and Gonzales figure to work as the Pirates’ middle infield duo until Cruz is healthy, and possibly into the future if or when the club makes a decision about Cruz’s defensive future.
That link is for a different Endy Rodriguez
I want Pirates to trade for Bednar for a Colby Mayo/Evan Carter type but they already are overloaded with position players.
Haven’t seen many or maybe even any teams that had too many position players. Pirates certainly aren’t one of them.
ojtor oh men, I feel that this season will end really bad, more than expected.
Someone should tell the Pirates that you are supposed to trade away veterans and then promote the prospects. That way it doesn’t look like…..
There are some nice traditions here, King. One is the trade deadline. Like the swallows returning to Capistrano each year, we look forward to the migration of vets
But after a 20-8 start, do appearances really matter. I felt good about my prediction of 72-75 wins. Now, I’m thinking even that’s a bridge too far
Apparently Delay’s days as backup catcher are numbered and since he still has options, will be sent to Indy as insurance in the event of an injury
I’m hoping that Marcano goes back to Indy as well. He’s been a major disappointment this year and should get more time to work on his swing where it’s not impacting games at the major league level
Marcano will never be an everyday player, not sure what they seen in him. I could be wrong but did he come over with Bednar? If so, not that bad I guess.
Holecamels, I believe Marcano came with Suwinsky in the Adam Frazier trade with Seattle
unless a miracle happens and they go on a lengthy winning streak, it doesn’t seem unreasonable they could lose 100 games for the third consecutive year
You seem obsessed. Rodriguez just got on a hot steak, so there was no need to bring him up before as he may not have been ready mentally. Your Cards suck, you should focus on them.
> Rodriguez just got on a hot steak
Sounds delicious, when’s dinner again?
Lol, meant streak, but good catch. Now I’m hungry for a hot steak too.
Sid are you telling me that the Pirates don’t worry about service time and always promote players based on merit?
Because we could take a look back over the last 15 years. And we would find thats not true at all.
Of course the Cardinals suck this year. But at least I can say this is unexpected. The Pirates were actually playing well for a bit but upper management was just waiting for them to start losing.
Obviously they don’t care about service time or they would have waited until next season or at least August September. At least with these guys. These guys weren’t screaming for a promotion in June. And they still aren’t. Endy has been hot but another few weeks wouldn’t kill him. Peguero has 27 abs in AAA. Bae made opening day roster.
Promoting players in July is what penny pinching teams do. Because that service time doesn’t count it leaves the player short of a full season and also avoids super 2.
The Pirates know this. It’s not an accident or coincidence.
Just what are you trying to convince us of, King? That the Pirates are miserly? That their house is in disarray and soon, your Cardinals will leap frog them?
Yeah. We know. You must be new to Pirates threads
They’re in free fall. 70 wins once looked easy and now looks iffy
So let’s return to the days of yore and play the kids who’ve shown promise. Why not?
Add to the core that’s here and separate the wheat from the chaff
Cards-You are like a one trick pony.
Pirates are aware of service time just like any other team.
Give it up.You made your point like 3227 times.
Every time I “make my point” numerous people argue with me and say it’s not true.
Just admit that the Pirates are cheap and they care about service time.
Teams usually promote in either June, August after trade deadline or September for the old cup of coffee. July isn’t a penny pinching move at all. They could have called them up April 20th and kept them from getting their year of service time. Or June 20th and avoided super two. Don’t know what your motive is to cause you to try to spin a false narrative but no one is buying it. Peguero again has 27 AAA abs. They could have waited until next year to call him up and no one would think anything of it. It is what is expected to happen. Again 27 AAA abs. Do I need to say it anymore? You are embarrassing yourself. Have you not have any pride laddie?
Cards-You know nothing about the Pirates.
It is evident because you are sticking to one point which does not make sense.
You may be adversely affected by the Cardinals having a bad year which you are certainly not used to.Perhaps it is a case of temporary insanity.
The Cards posters that we sometimes get here are pretty sharp posters.
Try being like them.
Reds To Promote Christian Encarnacion-Strand
For a good laugh at King of cards read those comments.
In case you were born on the moon, King, not every major league team has the luxury of being in a large market
Pittsburgh is considered a small market franchise and must be mindful of the money they spend
You’re a king to be sure, a king that lacks baseball knowledge
I bet they’re anxious about taking your advice King of Cards
NOT!
Pirates gonna Pirate. I know that.
Good for the Pirates. Get youngsters into the lineup and reduce any adjustment period in 2024.
Reds guys seemed to adjust just fine and quickly.
The Reds have a competent hitting coach and better player development than the Bucs
Every team has a more competent hitting coach and position player development than the Pirates.
So did Orioles guys. And Braves guys. And Rays guys
The Pirates have had lesser than scouting and player development programs. No revelation to any fan
As Dream explained yesterday, hopefully that’s turning around under Cherington
Corn- It’s been four years under Cherington.
If it was going to turn around under Cherington it would have done so by now.
He needs to make major changes,or he needs to be part of the purge.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Mendoza
Losing seems to be contagious with this current regime as any other franchise would have already made significant changes to their organization even mid season
I wonder if Cherington regrets giving Shelton an extension
Dream- It seems to me that the scouting is decent and BC is very good at drafting but development is lacking.
Dwight Eisenhower was as great of an American as we have ever produced but he needed hatchet men to do the work of firing people.
BC needs to find someone to fire Shelton,Haines,and his head of development.Or Nutting needs to clean house which should not be his job.
This is the fourth year of a five year plan and right now they are winning at the rate of year one.They have a number of promising young players but I do not see any Cutchs or Martes or Walkers on the horizon.
the Reds have a 2nd half of the season to play..
Steer is already ice cold , team is 1-5 since the break
don’t forget when the pirates were on fire atop the whole NL early on
easy to get too caught up in the current
Yes get em next year. The Pirates have been saying that for how long now?
I really don’t like teams that don’t try to win. I wish the league would do something about them.
are you a cards fan?
how’s that going for you
Peguero will be a day late due to a Liover at the airport.
Why not in June when they were still in contention?
Delay couldn’t delay the inevitable.
Wait, NYM gave up Rodriguez and received Joey Lucchesi?
OK, got it.
Yeah, the hits keep coming for my Mets, except for when the Mets are actually batting. LOL me, for being stuck with them.
History says almost every 3-team trade has one big looser. Hard to match talent with more variables involved.
Yep Bucs got Endy from Mets and Padres sent Lucchesi to New York. Bucs got Bednar, Hudson Head, Omar Cruz and Drake Fellows from San Diego for Musgrove.
Some comment about how Hedges and Shelton are terrible.
I was surprised that they did not bring up Akili Williams to play shortstop until Cruz is ready.
Or maybe they fear that he will do well and they will have a dilemma.
Peguero is young and not ready to play in the ML’s yet.He needs at least the rest of this year in AAA to prove that he can advance.
After a slow start after coming from the Rays Williams has been hitting very well in AAA.
You answered your question and didn’t realize. First time Williams has hit in his life. Let him keep doing it a bit before putting him in a possible pressure situation of playing in the majors. Also he isn’t on the 40 man and Rodriquez Peguero are.
Not sure what you meant by your first sentence.
Maybe Williams is not ready.He has not done much until this year and the change of teams.
But Peguero is not either.
How many middle infielders do they really need?
These guys look like deer in the headlights if they spend minimal time in AAA.That serves no purpose other to give them a brief taste of the ML’s.
As you are aware there are plenty of guys that can be DFA’d to make room for Williams.The Rays May have been planning ahead if they had to put him on the roster at the end of this year.The Pirates would have to do the same.He was a first round draft choice so somebody saw something in him.
The Pirates have no such problem.They need to include some of the extra players in the deadline trades to make room for Rule 5 players and 60 day IL returnees.
And meanwhile,Garcia becomes the answer to where is Waldo?
Not enough infielders at mlb. If a 3b ss 2b gets hurt you will see a outfielder catcher or 1b playing there.
Rule 5 draft isn’t a problem. You wish they had so much talent they couldn’t protect it all. Santana Hill Hedges Choi all off. CSN Mitchell Palacios better do something. Swaggerty can go to protect the right prospect (no need). Same with Marcano if it comes to it. All for re signing Cutch and Vince but no rush. You can have a gentleman agreement until you have time to evaluate, make trades and such. Who the heck is Andre Jackson? I know it’s a joke. You won’t cry over losing Crowe will ya? I will probably survive losing a few other of our amazing relievers. Can always make trades. And there isn’t that many kids to protect when the standard is you have to be better than Blake Sabol !!!!!! Ouch.
They have Bae,Cruz,and Hayes coming back soon.
Triolo can play third or shortstop.
I like Marcano but he is a victim of poor hitting coaching.
Vince will not be resigned until he throws an audition for teams mid next year.
Your buddy Underwood has been absolutely awful in AAA and I am wondering if something is wrong as he was not that terrible in the ML’s.
Even Crowe is better than Holderman at this point but Shelton still trots him out in close games.
I haven’t checked Sabol for a month but he was playing decently for the Giants.
You know way more than I know about the kids but most of the older potential good ones have already been brought up.
Sweeney has had several different serious problems this year but his time with the Pirates organization will be coming to an end soon.
With these small market teams, I think they are hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. Put together some good, inexpensive players with some veterans. Get a descent starting rotation (most importantly?) and put fans in the stands to boost revenue and the opportunity to add by the trade deadline. Tried and failed with the Archer deal, but they did try. Now we are looking at Keller, Priester, ?Brubaker, our newest #1 pick, and ?? as the ‘24 rotation. I hope they don’t trade significant pieces right now. Santana and/or Choi can go unless one goes lights out 2nd half, Hedges and Delay can go (hire Hedges as a coach maybe if he retires), and the rest seem to be works in progress. But I can’t believe they will succeed if the line up is changed every single night. Henry was fine at 5/6 as one example. Any organization needs stability and predictability! But maybe that’s the plan; play to draft high one more year, then go for it.
They need to trade Santana for a bucket of balls,and let Andujar play first base the rest of the year with Choi.
Oviedo will start next year as he deserves to do.
They need to extend Keller four years and spend money on Sonny Gray.
They need to play Endy and keep Delay if Davis plays elsewhere.
They need to sign another relatively inexpensive starter as BC has done the last three years with success.
They need to platoon where necessary.
The team is taking shape but the manger and several coaches need to be fired or all of this work will be wasted.
This crap about planning for the future and getting high draft choices is only an excuse for losing and anybody touting it should be fired immediately.
Got to see Liover one time live in NH. Great hit out to right center that he watched instead of started running on. Went off the wall and he was thrown out at second. That one play may have said it all; or, hopefully, maybe not. It would be really nice to see players hustle every single time (Pete Rose comes to mind). Maybe it’s a generational thing, maybe it’s something else. On another point about player development: I have wondered about the deficiency there for a while and I it was punctuated when Cruz made that butt ugly approach to the plate (I can’t even call it a slide) when he broke his ankle. That slide! Liover not hustling out a hit! The constant line up shuffling! Maybe they are playing for one more year of a top draft pick in a ‘24 class loaded with pitchers?
What you saw is unsound baseball which the Pirates have been famous for for five years.
How about Castro last year with his cell phone escapade?
How about Hayes chewing on pumpkin seeds during a play?
These are the types of things that should have gotten people fired long before now.
Do what Peguero did?Sit him for two games.Do it again?Sit him for three games.
The Pirates rarely play a game without one or two errors.
The fundamentals are lacking in this organization and that is both Cherington’s and Shelton’s faults.
Shelton should have been gone at least a year ago and I am beginning to think that BC’s weaknesses are starting to rear their ugly heads.
I look at what Braves manager has done when stars like Acuna and Osuna have pulled such stunts. He’s pulled them from the game and sat them on the bench
Yes, the Braves. And their stars
One would think that it behooves a manager of young players just coming into the majors to do similar things. Shelton has not, whether it’s the examples you list or myriad mistakes on the basepaths or with regards to loss of focus at the plate or in the field
You wouldn’t run a high school team this way
Beyond assembling lineups or game strategies and/or substitutions, this is my biggest problem with Shelton. He continually fails to communicate and inspire young players. I wasn’t a big fan of Leyland but I can only imagine what he’d have done
The hustle that @Because I was born…
makes note of starts from the top. It’s a generational thing, sure, and now more than ever, but when the boss doesn’t demand hustle or intensity, this is what you have
In defense of Leyland I recall a spring training game when he pulled Bonds aside and woofed on him for not running all the way to first base after grounding out
He didn’t take gruff from any of the players even potential super stars
They have another rookie playing in Matt Triolo and if someone considers Hedges a defensive specialist they have not watched him play. His defensive play is as bad as his offense!
Guy has a reputation for things he really hasn’t done since he was a Padre or early Cleveland.
Now, call up Nunez or Martin for first base… or alternatively try Davis at first but then you gimp his arm… /shrug
this would give a Hayes, Peguero, Gonzalez, Martin/Nunez, Rodriguez infield with Reynolds Suwinski, Davis out field
Trade Santana, Choi, Joe maybe keep Hill
Keep Bae on the 25 man for that speed and able to fill in up the middle. I just love this guy though.. probably because that speed.
Triolo needs to play too. done well over all.. not great but well. With the way hayes gets hurt we need to see what he has.
Cruz and Hayes coming back will be interesting getting everyone time.
Martins still a thing
If Andujar is knocking the cover off the ball as some say, and if they trade Choi or Santana, or both, it’s time to give the guy a long look
Corn- That would make too much sense.
Andujar has an OPS over 1.000 since he was sent down.Just sayin’.
I would give Santana away and see if Choi can earn his pay 1/2 of the time playing first base against right handers and 1/3 of the time at DH.The same with Andujar against left handers and the rest of the first base games.They need to determine if they want to keep Andujar or let him try with another team who will give him an honest chance.
Bae, like Castro, is a defensive liability playing 2nd base. With his speed he should be bunting to get on base but Shelton allows him to swing instead
But he does cover alot of ground playing center field and has made a few spectacular catches there but like Marcano he’s lost in the batter’s box, swinging at pitches nowhere close to the plate
But the question is, are these players not talented or is the field management at fault?
Fielding, base running and hitting seems to lack any leadership from coaches. And it all starts with Shelton
Nunez is hurt and Martin sucks. Andujar is the only guy that makes sense to take some first base reps if both Santana and Choi are traded at the deadline.
In the offseason I think they should give Smith-Njigba a first base glove and see if he can play there. They have plenty of RH options to play there next year, but no left-handed options other than Aaron Shackelford (he’d be the next call-up after Andujar) unless they bring in a free-agent.
Rich Hill has the most trade-value of any of the rentals. He’s the one that’s definitely getting moved since the team could probably get a legit lottery ticket or a MLB reliever or something for him.
Once Cruz and Hayes are back I think Triolo and Bae (after a long rehab in AAA) stick as bench pieces and whoever is playing better between Gonzales and Peguero remains the everyday second baseman. Once a decision is made there you essentially have your “trade from depth” options presenting themselves (Marcano, Castro, and Gonzales/Peguero).
They won’t trade Gonzalez, he’s their 2nd baseman of the future, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Marcano was part of a trade that also included Rich Hill.
But I’m curious to why Andujar hasn’t been brought back up yet. This current team lacks serious run production, an additional bat must be a part of this season turnaround
Gonzales would be trade bait if he gets “beat out” by Peguero for the everyday second base job. Unless the team decides to move Cruz off of SS, then there would be room for both if they both play well. Second base is wide open, Gonazales hasn’t shown anything yet to deserve to be penciled in as the future starter there. There are only so many starting spots, so as a small market team you have to utilize depth the rare times you have it to fill positions of more need.
Andujar hasn’t been called back up because of Choi and Santana, he’ll be back up after they trade one or both at the deadline. I don’t think he’ll hit, but he’s earned another shot. This team isn’t going to win this season, too many pitching injuries. The youth movement is in full swing for guys to compete for future spots and roles. At least it will be fun (they’ll probably have the youngest team in baseball after the trade deadline).
Gonzalez has only played in 19 games, a very small sample size and until/unless he’s beaten out by Peguero, there’s no way to predict he’s already trade bait
Genuine question, did you even read my post? Doesn’t seem like you did before responding.
Gonzales is the 2B of the present. Termarr Johnson is 2B of future.
If Gonzales learns how to hit breaking pitches than he may be 2B of future.
take a closer look at martin. he has had a decent few weeks. BUT he as done it before. IMO he needs thrown into the fire. his power is great.
Nunez should be back this week last i heard, something might have changed in the past week though.
Unless they’re give Andujar a month of playing nearly every day they should just get rid of him.
I’m almost positive I read they were hoping for a “late July” return for Nunez. At the earliest he’d be up in late August or September (only if he hits well), but more than likely next season if he earns it.
I agree with Andujar, but no need to release him now. I think once Santana/Choi are gone they’ll give him one last chance to earn a spot on next years club by playing him a lot at 1b, however, if he doesn’t perform he’ll be non-tendered in the offseason (or DFA prior).
I read he was throwing a few weeks ago with a mid july target.. either way its mid july now 🙂
Joe- Mason Martin has struck out 90 times in 208 at bats for the Altoona Curve in AA.
He would be the first non pitcher ML player to strike out over 60% of the time.
He would make Jack Suwinski look like Richie Ashburn.
I think that he is a dead deal with the Pirates.
35% of plate appearances and 43% of at bats but still yeah.. not good at all. got your math backwards 🙂 of his 45 hits 30% of them where home runs 22 were extra bases with 14 HRs. hes also drawing more walks with a 360 OBP. highest since 2020
Not saying he is a star or anything but they need to get him some action soon
Joe-You are correct.He does walk a lot and that was my error.I would give you a smiling emoji but I do not know how to do it!
They sent him to AA to cut down on strikeouts and it has not accomplished that.I wish that he could be another Pedro Alvarez but I very much doubt that he ever gets that chance.
@mendoza
It happens, the emoji just shows up when i do the old smiley face things from the 90’s 🙂
I’ve been a fan of Mason for a while.. seems like every time i say something about him to be called up he goes into a slump…. maybe i should start hating on him lol
Joe- Keep on liking him.The Pirates certainly need a power hitter.
I live near Philadelphia so I am somewhat knowledgeable about the Phillies.About 8 years ago when Hopkins was mashing the ball in AA Reading they had another young hitter who was just as powerful but struck out a lot.
Martin reminds me of him.
He had about 20 ML at bats I think.
I hope that he moves up too but they specifically started him in AA to get him to have more contact.
But many of us have zero faith in the hitting coaches in this organization so he may do better in another organization.
I hope that he gets that chance.These young players deserve the best chance that they can get.
they also had Nunez at AAA who people generally rate as more advanced and Andujar I believe took his place at first when Nunez went down. Pretty sure anyway.
Won’t be long till u pirates will be battling the Rockies for last place.
Thought Cherington would have turned things around by now.
Baseball is so much better when the Buccos are relevant.
When I was a kid playing ball , everyone wanted to be a pirate. Stargell Stennet Hebner Ellis Robertson brothers lol (Os Robinson brothers wannabes lol) Sanguillen. Et al those were the days
Ed- Other than the magical three year period,the last time that the Pirates were relevant was during the years of the George Bush presidency.
The first George Bush.
It’s the structure of baseball. If you define making the playoffs as relevant than most teams aren’t relevant most years.
Since Nutting took over the team the Pirates have made the playoffs more than 8 other franchises. Until their is a salary cap small market teams other than the Rays (their magic will run out eventually) will remain irrelevant most seasons and have to built for short 2 or 3 year runs with a rebuild following.
Buc-For the first ten years of their existence the Rays were the worst team in baseball,followed by a tie between the Pirates and Royals.
All small market teams.
Since the Rays won the pennant in 2008 they have been one to the best teams.For 15 years.
The Royals are the only small market team to have won a WS since 1991.
Believe me,I know that small market teams cannot really have much hope to ever win a WS.
But every small market team has had periodic runs at having good team.
I see large market team fan posters continually degrading the small market teams and the money that they receive.They are clueless as to the economics of baseball.
But don’t use the small market as an excuse to have terrible teams.
I have been a Pirate fan since 1961.I have never seen this base lack of team winning % ever.This is quite possible the worst Pirate team IN HISTORY.
I know that you are a fine fan but don’t make excuses for the management and at this point the ownership of this team.
They are pathetic.
The Rays have missed the playoffs 7 of those 15 years (once 5 years in a row). I’m not making light of what they’ve done, it’s been incredible. They’ve been the best small market team in the majors by A LOT, but using your logic that they’ve been relevant for 15 years, then the Pirates were relevant from 2011-2018.
This isn’t even close to the worst team in Pirates history, this is simply a team that’s been decimated with pitching injuries and woes. A small market team can’t sustain success losing 4 of it’s top 7 starting pitching options, three to season ending injuries. It’s just not possible.
I don’t have a problem with ownership, Nutting is an average at best (probably a little below) owner, but he’s not even close to the worst owner in baseball. He’s just a typical small market owner, reinvests almost all of the profits into the team, but won’t operate at a deficit. They’re actually doing the rebuilt the right way (like Huntington did). Now the question is once they start winning can Cherington maintain it a little longer than Huntington did and not eventually have a terrible MLB team AND a terrible farm system. Time will tell.
The Rays are not the only small market team that has periodic success at making the playoffs.Each of the other teams have had it also,and some are well run and managed organizations lacking only in talented stars who they cannot afford..
The Pirates,on the other hand,are on a pace now to average less than 60 wins a year for a four year period..The only Pirate team team ever close to be so disgraceful was the early 1950’s team.
By relevant I mean close to a 500: team.Unless you are the Dodgers or Yankees this definition I think is reasonable.
I do not disagree about Nutting but he is the one who had to fire two guys who he had given four year contracts to immediately after two mediocre years.Not sure how well he understands baseball management.BC has been given a blank check and it isn’t working.
I think that it is human nature to look at the bright side but after four years one must be realistic.They have no where to go but down with this current management team,and Cherington should be the first one to understand that.
You can’t be serious using the 2020 season in your calculation for average wins, talk about dishonest lmao.
Nowhere to go, but down? But, I thought you said they were already the worst team in history (eye roll).
Buc-You are the first person ever to accuse me of a dishonest comment,
Ask the Dodgers and Rays to give up their pennants and the WS from 2020.
I said that the Pirates were the worst Pirates team ever,not the worst team ever.Reading is not your strong suit.
Yes,they are capable of getting worse.How is that 7-22 record working for you.
Do you think real Pirate fans are not ashamed of this circus.?Not you evidently.
You have a penchant for dissing other posters.That means that you are an immature 12 year old or an —-hole .Not sure which.lmao and eye roll.
This is your comment:
“The Pirates,on the other hand,are on a pace now to average less than 60 wins a year for a four year period..The only Pirate team team ever close to be so disgraceful was the early 1950’s team.”
You used a 60 game regular season in your sample size. That’s dishonest.
The only reasonable way to measure average number of wins would be to not use the 2020 season at all, or to use how many wins that record would equate to over a 162 game season (51.3).
The “honest” answer of the average number of wins over the last four FULL 162 game seasons would be 68.5.
So no, they aren’t on pace to average less than 60 wins per season over the last four full seasons. This also isn’t even close to the worst team in Pirates history, this isn’t even the worst team under Cherington and is the best team since 2018.
I haven’t insulted a single person. Congrats, you’re officially the first person I’ve interacted with on this site that’s called me a derogatory name. Maybe you shouldn’t cast the first stone, I haven’t insulted you a single time other than calling out a dishonest/absurd way to come up with a statistic (using the 2020 season as if it counts as a full season).
I think that many teams are trying to reproduce the successful formula of the Rays, but it is elusive. I would guess that the formula rests significantly on the player development staff. As a person who trains professionals, identifying people with skills who WANT to be better and who WANT to listen (and put their egos in check) is key. Same goes for the coaches/trainers/ developers. Look at all of the great pitchers that the pirates had recently that became great after they left…..when they were allowed to pitch to their strengths…Morton, Cole, Glasgow maybe, Musgrove, and probably others. Maybe the Pirates should be spending more on coaching quality?
Cherington took over in 2019 after an awful second half of 2019.Anybody who thinks that they would have won more than 51 games in 2020 is disingenuous.This four year stretch is barely going to win no more than about 60 games per year on average with the 51 used. For 2020.
Maybe you should realize that eye rolls and LMAO are dissing other posters.And the two other guys who disagreed with you you dissed too.
Read the intelligent post below about one of the reasons that the Pirates need to improve..You are like the king of cards.You are a one trick pony with VV and Brubaker injuries costing the Pirates a 500 record.What planet are you from?
One thing that many of us here hate are arrogant posters.Most of them are trolls.Keep that in mind.
PIT-Fine post.I think with some of the young pitchers Searage was not a good coach.With the veterans yes he was.
I think that you hit the nail on the head with your coaching comment though.Instead of signing Santana this year get rid of the dead wood in the coaching and development areas and replace them with better coaches and pay them.
But that would mean that BC would have to admit that some of his hires were busts and he may not want to do that.He May also not have contacts with proven coaches who may also want to work for better teams.
This is also exactly the reason that Huntington was fired.You can scout and sign well but these very young players need to honed in the fundamentals and develop their skill sets that are unique to them.The Pirates have young players that have improved but I do not see the first quality stars being produced that will ever make the Pirates a first rate team.
Liover, been waiting many years since Ben’s first major trade acquisition.
Very disappointing.. I wonder what the other offers for Marte looked like
Gok-The Marte trade was a salary dump,pure and simple.
It can be spun a number of ways but Nutting saved $10 M for Crowe and Peguero.
Liover Peguero is 22 years old. Of course you’ve “been waiting many years”, he was 18 when the Pirates acquired him. He’s actually moved quickly through the system and has been very young for every level he’s played at (and done well).
The Marte trade could end up disappointing, but if Peguero ends up a good everyday player it’s a win.
Unless I’m wrong, this will be another 95-100 loss season
And we will be discussing how “top” prospects here—upon first exposure—just don’t look ready OR don’t look to have the tools that top prospects in other organizations have
This has been the oblivion express of rebuilds, with a mix of prospects emanating from two different regimes. And yet, the results have been similar
There’s a basic core here and nothing beyond that. It remains weak hitting, light in the pitching department. I’ve said I’m good with a .500 team and by 2026, that may be the idea
If they endure another 100 loss season, BC has to clean house and fire the entire management staff including the fielding and running coaches
And expect a drastic reduction in the payroll next year as well
Paul- I have been saying for over a year that Shelton should be fired.He was fine for the first couple of years but upper management does not put an emphasis on winning,
We can be accused of being negative but Cherington is unwilling to make major changes.
Thus he becomes part of the problem.
He has some clear strengths but also clear weaknesses.Nutting has given him unlimited power.I saw the same thing happen in Philadelphia with Hextall as GM and they just never progressed.
A major component of being a manager is to realize when personnel are not working out and being capable of making changes.Cherington fails.
Yes,they needed to give Shelton an extra year because of the fantasy first month that they had.One month out of almost four years,
And sometimes you need to make a change just to make a change.
This management team has gone from bad to sad to farsical.
Nutting is failing the lifelong fans of the Pittsburgh Pirates.And it is not because he is tight with the purse.
Corn- Don’t keep pushing the five year plan back.That is just making excuses for this regime.Five years is plenty 9of time to develop a good team.They should be a 500 team by now but are winning at the same rate as their worst team ever in 2020.
This regime has lost all credibility as far as I am concerned.
Other small market teams can win in periodic stretches and don’t let the success of the 2013-2015 team fool you.That was a long time ago.
I hate to be so negative but one has to realistic.
It is shameful that a once proud franchise has dropped so low with no major changes being made.It is like ownership does not even care,
And why should the fans then?
Why not let the prospects actually play for awhile before deciding that they’re weak hitting? Most hit well all the way through the minors. Pitching actually looks strong over the next couple of years with Keller, Skenes, Solometo, Jones, Burrows, Ashcraft…and still Ortiz/Contreras with a lot of talent trying to figure it out (I didn’t even include Oviedo, I think he ends up in the bullpen).
The only reason to bring up all the kids right now is to try to contend in 2024. If they didn’t think they had a shot of that they’d leave them down longer.
This season went into the crapper because of pitching injuries (and the Contreras implosion). I don’t like how Cherington handled everything, especially at catcher and in the bullpen, and Derek Shelton is a loser of a Manager, but nobody can sustain that much attrition on the pitching staff. Not even a large market team could lose 4 of their top 6 starters (3 for the season) and maintain winning. Sometimes injuries totally derail a season and this is an example of that.
One player’s injury or the failure of one pitcher can’t be blamed for the failures of this team.
Cherington has been the GM for 4 years, has drafted high and made significant trades that brought top tier prospects in return
Most teams develop players well enough to become fill ins until injured players return. This franchise didn’t.
Marcano, Castro, CSN. Ortiz are players that were used as fill ins due to injuries to Cruz and Brubaker and the regression of Contrares’ pitching
player development is also to blame as is the worst manager in baseball
A team’s offense that was supposed to be an improvement over last year is actually worse
I almost long for the moments when Van Meter was playing. At least his mediocre performance could provide a laugh
What are you talking about? One players injury? You mean losing 3 of your top 6 starting pitchers for the season and having another implode? (Brubaker, Velasquez, Burrows, and Contreras)
To expect any small market team to have enough depth to withstand that is asinine, ridiculous, and unrealistic.
I haven’t even mentioned the injury of Cruz in any of my posts because I don’t think that’s the main reason they’ve struggled for 2.5 months. But, that’s still pretty substantial. Small market teams don’t have another above average regular normally sitting on the bench. That’s why the Pirates are going the prospect route and letting them “try out”. The Pirates will never have the depth of teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros, Braves, etc. get that through your head right now.
one position player’s injury early in the season the loss of Brubaker happened even before the start of the season
They should have been able to overcome some of the problems and might have with a deep minor league system and a good player development program
“ get that through your head now “
insulting me just shows how immature you are in trying to make your case
And they withstood that well. It was when Burrows was injured, then Velasquez, then Contreras imploded when they fell back.
The Pirates will never be able to withstand losing 4 of their top 6 starting pitchers for long periods of time (3 for the season), it just won’t happen.
Remember the team was 34-30 and in first place when the last batch of injuries/misfortunes happened, they’re 7-22 since.
If you think that phrase is insulting you I’d have to question your reading comprehension skills lol. It’s not personal, it’s telling you to let it sink in, not insulting at all and it’s a “you problem” if you take it that way.
Complete baloney
Burrows never pitched an inning here.
Brubaker was hurt in spring training
Just what are YOU talking about?
VV gave them some nice starts. Keller was and is the consistent ace
Oviedo and Ortiz are young guys who came through with some wins during that stretch but both are inconsistent
Hill has been a 50-50 proposition but at the very least can give you 5 innings every time out
And Contreras? You can’t be serious.
It’s hilarious to read a comment about “losing 4 of their top 6 pitchers” in this regard.
Truth is, a number of Keller’s starts were wasted due to lack of hitting. A couple of starts by Hill, Oviedo and Ortiz as well as VV would also fall into this category
When they were 20-8, I noted the number of hits the Pirates had in many of those games and wondered how it could continue
And then I further pondered where the hits would come from? During that stretch, only Cutch and Reynolds were consistent with occasional big hits from others
No, the injuries to and demise of the “starters” has not been the reason for the Pirates downturn. It’s their anemic hitting which includes lack of plate discipline, ignorance of game strategies/pitcher advantages/strike zone and the incredible collective inability to pick up spin pitches
Pre-season starting rotation and depth (in order):
Keller – All-Star
Contreras – imploded
Brubaker – Tommy John
Hill – been about what you’d expected
Velasquez – Tommy John (light)
Oviedo – Supposed to start in bullpen and spot start
Burrows – Tommy John after 2 starts, 40-man/first callup for injury
Priester – Finally earned his way up, only 22 years old so didn’t rush
Ortiz – Pitched average, rushed because of the injuries
Bido – Had there not been injuries wouldn’t even be on this list (would have been behind Jones and Nicolas who started in AA)
I agree the team’s offense has stunk, but had the pitchers not got hurt they probably would still be around .500.
Facts are facts, the Pirates will never be able to withstand losing that much pitching depth in one season (no small market team can).
You said you had them pegged for 72-75 wins, so why are you mad they’re playing at that pace? That’s what I’m not understanding from your position.
it’s called finesse, try using it sometime
Mad?
It’s professional baseball. A millionaire’s game. If what you are gleaning from words on a message board is anger, you are sorely mistaken
They are not playing at a 72-75 win pace now
Your rendering of the pitching staff is news to many of us. Burrows was going to be at Indy and Brubaker had surgery prior to the season. They headed north with the staff of Keller-Hill-VV-Oviedo-Contreras
Yes, VV was injured but after last season, any allusion to Contreras being solidly in the starting rotation is laughable
In other words, they knew this was going to likely be patchwork or at least could be, with an aging pitcher, a so-so vet, an inconsistent young starter and a young pitcher with command and confidence troubles
Facts are facts? Ok. They didn’t have depth to begin with and the patchwork they did have propelled them to a nice start
Look, I just disagree with all of your assessments. No anger. No resentment or vitriol. We are just on different pages. I’ll steer clear of your comments here
They are playing at a 71.42 win pace, so you’re right, not at a 72 win pace.
My rendering of the pitching staff was exactly the depth chart heading into the last week of spring training.
bucsdugout.com/2023/3/16/23641837/projecting-the-p…
Brubaker was scratched right before his last spring training start, so you’re incorrect about that. He didn’t have surgery prior to the season, he had it in mid-April after getting two opinions on his elbow.
Burrows headed to Indy and was going to be the first callup should there be an injury (he was already on the 40-man roster).
Contreras had a 3.79 ERA last season and was solidly in the rotation to start the season. Not sure that anyone thought differently (he was considered the #2 starter).
The only injured starting pitcher at the start of the season was Brubaker, which was a tough loss, but they still had depth. Burrows and VV getting injured is what destroyed the depth.
No need to steer clear of me, that’s silly. I always back up my argument with facts and use links when necessary. Fact check me if you want. I don’t care that you disagree, the point of these types of sites is to debate.
Buc- They do not have any choice but to play the young players.That is what a rebuild is all about.
But these guys have been used to losing because of management ineptitude.
Oviedo is one of their best pitchers.Give him time to get better and more consistent.
Injuries are part of the game because every team has numerous pitching injuries,and quite often major ones.The small market teams are affected the worst because they cannot afford to have the depth required in starting pitchers.
Look at the Dodgers.They have had more than the Pirates but are doing just fine.
Shelton is a loser of a manager.Well said.What does it say about Cherington in keeping him?
And you name a bunch of young players.How well are they being coached in the minor leagues,let alone in the ML’s?Marin is the only coach who should be kept.Kelly should be named interim manager.BC needs to admit that Shelton has been a failure.
I also have to take exception about trading Hill.Hiow many more young players do they need?When does the rebuild end?And from above,do they really have the starting pitcher depth when Osvaldo Bido is one of your starters and you have no one else in the minors who is ready?Unkess they get an Oviedo in return I would keep Hill or this team will really be a circus.
Who cares if the team is a circus? At this point the rest of the season is solely about letting the young players develop and battle for future spots.
Whether you like it or not Ortiz and Contreras will be back in the rotation after the deadline. Oviedo will stay in the rotation the rest of this season, but I think he inevitably ends up in the bullpen as a high-leverage reliever. We don’t need 43 year old Rich Hill eating innings when we’re playing for the lottery, not the playoffs. Let the kids play.
I think this year was the last real year of the rebuild and the team would have won around 75 games had they not had all the pitching injuries. If they can bring in a solid pitcher in the offseason I think they can compete for the division in 2024 if Shelton is fired at the end of the season.
I think the biggest misstep so far in the Cherington regime is hiring and extending Shelton. Shelton is just a loser, no emotion, no baseball IQ, and no game management ability (I think he’s just not very smart, honestly). Until this is corrected I don’t think they can win, Shelton would be struggling to be in first place with the Braves loaded roster.
Small note on the Dodgers. They had a losing record when they were decimated with starting pitching injuries and then started to win when they got healthier, so even the largest markets aren’t immune. We’ll see how they maintain without Kershaw again if it’s for any length of time.
Kind of surprised to read your comments today, Buc
First off, the idea that the team went downhill because of pitching is patently ridiculous. Look at the box scores from the initial 20-8 run. The offense was often limited to 4 or 5 hits. Just how long was pitching going to continue as opposing offenses heated up and the Pirates hitters continued to struggle? I doubt the Orioles ‘71 team with four 20 game winners could have propelled the team all season
I get that pitchers were hurt. Brubaker, perhaps Burrows, and maybe you had a few more wins. Perhaps
You go on to say Ortiz and Contreras will be back. In the case of the former, I agree. As far as the latter, that’s highly questionable. The young man’s confidence is shot and if he finds any semblance of it in the instructional league, the Pirates would be wise to have him close out the year at some level in the farm system and then return to spring training
Your assessment about the “circus” here actually being an attempt to have the kids cut their teeth so as to compete in the future is simply the company line. It’s something we’ve heard for years
Truth is, they have a core of players here and nothing more. They do not have anything approaching young players who’ve proven they can hit for power consistently, hit for average or pitch effectively on a consistent basis. I’ll defer to Dream here in hoping Solometo and Jackson will be those guys, but they’re a year away
I predicted 72-75 wins and I think it’s more likely they lose 100 again and that would be whether they stand pat at the deadline or play all of the kids. I was only looking for incremental improvement and sadly, I was fooled into thinking that’s what he had this season.
I appreciate your insights as always, but you’ll have to forgive me in saying I see regression and stagnation from the guys who’ve been here
What happened to Bryan Reynolds? (Yeah I know. He finally had a multi hit game yesterday)
Castro was finally sent down. Marcano and Bae are in the same mold
Suwinski has struck out 99 times out of 252 at bats. Spare me the analytics. He’s hitting .228 and does not seem to be improving at bat
Hayes is a solid glove but likely will never hit above .260 or so
Only Keller has been a bright spot and while I like the upsides of Davis, Gonzales and Triolo, these guys aren’t going to lead them to the promised land without a helluva lot of help
Ron Cook’s column in todays PG says it all. What a shame. I’m through with the idea of “the kids coming up will save the day”. We’ve heard it for years
I’m given up. It’s beyond being a circus but rather, a perfect storm of scouting and player development incompetence
You predicted they would win 72-75 games, which is still entirely attainable, and you’re giving up? How does that make sense?
Sounds like you and I were on the same page for the expectations this season (I thought around 75 wins). The team was performing better than that prior to the last wave of injuries (34-30), and below that since (7-22). They’ll probably even out and end up right around 70-75 wins.
If the prospects being called up were scrubs I might be inclined to agree with you, but they aren’t. They’re universally regarded as good players by scouts/GM’s across baseball. Eventually having the kids lead is the entire point of a rebuild. We’re at the end of the rebuild and turning the keys over to the talented kids, this was always the plan and how all small market teams operate.
I’m not even getting into it about Suwinski, he’s a very good baseball player and the best position player on the team currently. It’s been bizarre to say the least watching Pirates fans dislike him for some reason, it defies logic.
How does that make sense?
I dunno. I’ve been watching baseball since the ‘60’s and will spare you my background. Buc, this is a truly horrible team
I’m hoping that you are right about the guys down on the farm. What you can’t seem to understand is that we’ve seen countless top prospects come here in the past few years and subsequently flop. Hope things will be different with this crop
And regarding Suwinski, bizarre? Other than analytics that are simply misleading, just how is he a very good player? Because of 19 homers?
It’s not dislike by any means. Fans hope he will refine his hitting and like the fact he plays hard. But he’s not their best position player—Hayes is— and in the bigger picture, not currently the guy you can build a franchise around.
What’s bizarre is the continuing attempt by younger, analytics-driven fans to persuade others that Jack is the second coming of Barry Bonds, the most complete, MLB-ready young player most of us have ever seen
I understand BB was a generational talent but Jack is simply a young player who has shown flashes and has potential to be that “very good player” you assert he is
We’ve seen several prospects flop just like every other franchise. We’ve also seen tons work out: Cutch, Walker, Marte, Harrison, Cole, Taillon, Morton, Keller, Musgrove, Brubaker, Mercer, Stallings, Frazier, Hayes, Reynolds, Suwinski, even guys like Locke and Alvarez had their moments.
The Pirates had 4 winning seasons in 6 years primarily because of prospects working out.
Suwinski isn’t even about analytics. Even if you disregard analytics he’s one of the best CF’s in the National League (probably should have been an All-Star).
Suwinski’s rank among NL centerfields (entire MLB rank):
HRs – 1st (2nd)
RBIs – 1st (3rd)
BBs – 1st (1st)
Runs – 5th (9th)
OBP – 6th (9th)
SLG – 2nd (4th)
OPS – 2nd (5th)
Add in the fact he plays a decent CF, runs the bases very well (85th percentile sprint speed), and has one of the best walk rates in baseball, and you have a cumulative very good player despite the high number of K’s.
Nobody is comparing him to Bonds, spare me the hyperbole. Suwinski has done more than enough to be apart of the teams future (a big piece). He’s also been solid against lefties for a month now and might be turning the corner there. He’ll never be a high average hitter, but who cares when he’s on base 35%+ of the time with elite slugging and solid defense in CF. He’s already a very good player. I’m not dismissing Hayes, I think it’s a valid argument that he’s the best player on the team at the moment, but because of health I’ll go Suwinski.
Not just a very good player. He’s an all star!
And where is bright eyes?
as a team this year they’ve scored 388 runs, last in the league as opposed to having an ERA as a team of 4.38
Not scoring enough runs versus having the 10th lowest ERA suggests that it’s been more of the fault of the offense than pitching, regardless of the starters injuries
Well of course the offense has been awful (Andy Haines stinks just like he did in Milwaukee). But, that’s not the argument. The argument is what caused the team to go 7-22 in their last 29 games. Had the starting pitching remained healthy they would have a better record than that, probably substantially better. The team was built for pitching and defense in the offseason and it worked for awhile, but unraveled with the injuries.
With the way the roster was constructed and where the prospects were in development, the Pirates couldn’t afford to have Cruz and Reynolds spend time on the DL with injuries’ as they were too thin offensively, let alone Cruz missing 4 months.
Despite all of this they’re basically playing at a pace that all of us expected. If the young guys spark the team a bit they’ll probably end up around the win projection most had preseason.
The analytics wing once again chiming in with their saber metrics
Like I said to Terrier yesterday, there are volumes of articles online that essentially say that analytics are incredibly misleading.
From baseball people.
But I’m tired of the debate
Willie Stargell was a guy who struck out a lot and a guy whose career numbers make your “who cares” query made sense. Way before analytics, anyone who watched the game understood he had this penchant for coming up clutch
Suwinski is not Bonds. He’s not Stargell. He’s not Aaron Judge, as someone tried to compare yesterday. He’s not an all-star. And he has not been solid against lefties
He does have power
He is a good defensive center fielder
And he is a part of this team’s future
He has a great deal of potential
Here’s hoping he hires his own hitting coach this off season
I didn’t use any analytics in my reply to you for a reason. I used old school, traditional box score numbers to show he’s among the 5 or 6 best CF’s in baseball.
You’re the only one comparing him to HOFers, I have yet to see anyone else say something that ridiculous.
Btw, Stargell had seasons where he hit .243 and .237 during his 20’s, I expect Suwinski to be in that range by the end of the season.
You mentioned Stargell was clutch (which he was), career slash line with RISP:
Stargell: .292/.406/.542 (.952 OPS)
Suwinski this season: .297/.410/.625 (1.025 OPS)
You brought up Stargell so I’ll continue to use him, numbers by both players against LHP as a 24 year old:
Stargell: .188/.242/.377 (.618 OPS)
Suwinski: .227/.316/.349 (.664 OPS)
Maybe let Suwinski develop a bit. He’s very improved this year over last year, and he’s improved within the season (.250 average vs. LHP over the last month).
You don’t need advanced analytics to make the argument for Suwinski, his old school, traditional box score stats are good. I posted them earlier for you to read and like I said, specifically didn’t use any advanced analytics at all.
Good teams, even better than average teams overcome injuries by stepping up to produce.
I’ve been hearing since Cherington became GM in 2019 they would be more competitive, they’d have a deep farm system to compete when/if injuries happened
It’s been 4 years and they aren’t any better than they were last year and not just because of injuries to their pitching staff
I certainly didn’t expect a division title or even the playoffs but I did expect significant improvement with the offense and am again wondering if this team’s perpetual slump will come to an end any time soon
Are you not reading your own posts?
You called him “very good”
Dream called him an “all star”
He is neither
He’s a young player with a boatload of potential. I’ve said this a thousand times now
I find it interesting that you state, “maybe let Suwinski develop”. Uh yeah. That’s been the point all along
Your rendering of metrics (not analytics per se) are nice although OBP is likely more important and it’s notable that you neglect bringing strike outs into the discussion. Stargell struck out 85 times in ‘63 and 92 the following year
After that point, perhaps your “who cares?” comment makes more sense as Stargell’s home runs, runs batted in and average simply blossomed
But Suwinski is not Stargell, young or old Stargell
As stated above, I’ll steer clear of your comments here as obviously, I simply don’t agree with any of your viewpoints and this all goes beyond seeing the glass being half full
TheMan. The Pirates aren’t better than average and weren’t supposed to be. They were never going to be competitive by 2023 with the loss of the 2020 minor league season.
The Pirates have the most depth they’ve had since 2018, but not proven depth yet. Also, they lost THREE starting pitchers for the season. For a team not yet at the backend of a rebuild, that’s impossible to overcome.
The team is on pace for 71 wins, even with Shelton as manager (they won 62 last year). To say they aren’t at least marginally improved is a silly comment at this point.
Suwinski is already very good by every measure other than strikeouts, which for some reason you can’t get past.
You say I’m ignoring strikeouts, but you’re basically ignoring every other statistic (HRs, OBP, Slugging, RBIs, Runs, etc.).
My glass isn’t even half full, I have no reason to not be objective about players. You, for some reason, seem to have a bone to pick with Suwinski and if I’m honest it’s irrational. Why can’t you just say he’s a good player? He obviously is.
He’s not a great player, but he’s already a good player according to just about every measurable that exists (headed for around a 4 WAR season). Suwinski is better at age 24 than Stargell was, but I don’t expect him to be Stargell, it’s unfair. Let’s just let him be good for the Pirates and not nitpick reasons to downplay his performance when he’s one of the only players excelling this season.
Using your analytics Suwinski is on pace to strike out 198 times
Stargell never came close to that amount even when he was Jack’s age
So it’s impossible to score more than 4.17 runs per game which is their average?
Then you become arrogant again by saying my opinion is “ silly “
“your analytics”, what are my analytics? Curious.
Your numbers are also wrong. Suwinski is on pace for 172 strikeouts. He might strikeout 198 times, neither of us know, but that’s not what he’s currently on pace to do. I’m hopeful he’s reducing them a bit since he had a strikeout rate of 26.8% in June. It’s up again in July, but he’s also being more aggressive in July because he’s hitting well, so who knows.
I think the offense will take a step forward with Endy and Peguero called up, plus Cruz rejoining the team eventually (hopefully).
Question, if the Pirates win 7-9 more games than last year, would that make them improved?
I can’t get past his strike outs because for one, he leads the league in strikeouts while looking
He obviously doesn’t know the strike zone or he’d even try and take half swings to foul off the pitch
Second, as where he’s batting in tonight’s lineup, lead off, he’s yet to get a hit and swings at pitches nowhere close to the plate
And I don’t care about how he matches up with other players
Now insult me again for offering my opinion
Well, since I’ve yet to insult you a single time, I’ll continue to not insult you.
You’re conflating someone debating your opinions with a personal insult. Someone disagreeing with you isn’t a personal insult and all I’ve done is debate your points of view. You’re putting your opinions out for everyone to see, expect people to occasionally, or often, disagree.
I agree with you that he shouldn’t be batting leadoff, that’s ridiculous. Shelton is bad, that’s something we agree on, the guy doesn’t understand the basics of baseball.
Calling my opinions “ silly “ is indeed an insult
I hold no grudges but will call you out each time you become condescending to my opinions
I spent my entire professional career as an Environmental Scientist. I would never dare to show disrespect to anyone who disagreed with my views
Again tonight, as in almost every night, I am watching the Pirates
And I am watching Suwinski at the plate. And again, Jim Bouton was right when he said, “Tell your statistics to shut up”
This is not a very good player. This is not an all-star. This is not even a good player
He’s a young player with a great deal of potential, but with a lot of work to do
I see you have said numerous times today that you back up your thoughts with facts. It’s interesting to me, again, that the facts you use remain extremely misleading
Perhaps I can add to this thread after every Pirates game the simplest of stats for you: his at bats that night, his hits, his strikeouts. I’m sure you’ll be able to somehow morph those basics into portraying Suwinski as some other worldly player. And yet, you say you use the eye test
Sorry. I’m not on board with Suwinski the player yet. I have no personal animus, I’m sure he’s a swell guy
But he has to show a helluva lot more. Yes, let’s give him time to develop
Connor Joe is second on the team in striking out while looking, next to Suwinski, and in tonight’s game he added to his totals
The fact that as a whole this team struck out 12 times it’s indicative of the failures of management and the hitting coach.
Shelton will sugar coat the anemic offense by using the ages of the players and their inexperience at the major league level and the gullible will buy into it
Endy, for example struck out a few times while looking, both times shaking his head as if to suggest the pitches weren’t indeed strikes and they were. Is this trend a result of players not having an understanding of the strike zone or is it because Shelton and company are failing to teach?
It’s an embarrassing time to be a Pirate fan, we were demolished by a bullpen session type game
Paul-They are waiting to try to trade Santana to save money.He has been a leader but not much more.Choi should be kept to share first base with Andujar.
Santana wants to come back but there is no way as far as I am concerned.
Buc-The Pirates lost one mediocre starter from last year and one starter who was having his first good year starting in a decade.
Yes it hurts a small market team but certainly no more than the lack of hitting.If you don’t think that every other team in MLB has lost that much go to your analytics books and look it up.
I realize that you cannot use analytics to see the overall picture which several of us can do
I think that Suwinski is a good player and hitter too but he needs someone to tell him how to hit with two strikes.Maybe he can use Cruz’ coach.
You seem to think that you are some kind of genius but what you are missing is that the development group on this team stinks.You know about Haines and Shelton but the rest is over your head.
They are playing since April at a one win per year better rate than in 2020.This is not the first year of the rebuild,but the fourth.
I will have another response to your trash further up.
I also believe that Suwinski’s potential is being misused when Shelton bats him lead off or for example in yesterday’s game and in a tie game, Shelton didn’t use Jack to pinch hit for Connor Joe, against a righty pitcher
Joe’s batting average against righties is around .210.
Fact is, Shelton misuses all of the players, as many of us have agreed, he develops the lineup using analytics, something that doesn’t work well with this team
Reynolds, batting 3rd in 2021 had an all around good year. Batting second, he’s slumped significantly
TheMan, strongly disagree with why Shelton sucks. He’s not developing the lineup using analytics, or if he thinks he is, he has no idea how to use them.
He sucks because he has no emotion, no concept of analytics or how to use them, no feel for in-game managing, and appears to unintelligent overall (or just lacks the ability to think through a decision bigger picture).
You admitted he misuses all of his players, therefore, he’s not using analytics. You point contradicts the information you provided directly above it.
Actually he’s said earlier in the season that he does use analytics but as you said, he doesn’t know how to use them
His logic is having your best offensive threats at the top of the order so they would get the most ABs
When Bae was in the lineup, I always questioned why he wasn’t batting leadoff and using his ability to bunt to get on base.
By the way, through 3+ innings we are losing to a relief pitcher, another sign that our offense is anemic
Bae shouldn’t have been batting at the top of the lineup, his OBP was horrid for most of the season. I think he’ll eventually get on base and be an option in the leadoff spot, but it was clear he was overmatched prior to going on the IL.
You should definitely hit your best hitters in the first 4 spots of the batting order. That’s not analytics, it’s common sense and even little league coaches do that.
Shelton just doesn’t know how to order them. The order should be:
Cutch
Reynolds
Davis
Suwinski
Triolo
Rodriguez
Santana/Choi
Peguero
Gonzales
Or
Triolo
Reynolds
Cutch
Suwinski
Davis
Rodriguez
Santana/Choi
Peguero
Gonzales
It would be different against lefties with Joe being in the lineup for either Suwinski or Reynolds (until he stops listening to Andy Haines and starts standing up taller in the box). But, you get the idea.
Buc, it occurred to me last night that you, Dream and Terrier often represent the line of demarcation where younger and older fans are concerned. In the age of metrics and analytics, you allow the numbers to dictate the idea of “very good” and “all star” quality
That’s fine
There’s a need for statistics, of course, but unfortunately they either need to be placed in context or have numerous caveats involved
I’ll beat a dead horse here and again pick on Suwinski. In your ways of thinking, he’s a star and yet truthfully, he’s be looked upon as an average player in the Murtaugh, Tanner or Leyland eras. It’s doubtful he’d be anything more than a late inning defensive replacement, occasional spot starter or pinch hitter against right handers. There were numerous Suwinski’s here in the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s. You being a baseball guy must know this
Here in the age of analytics, you peg him as a budding superstar. I know you’ve said the eye test is important to you but so should be historical background and not by simply comparing players with the modern analytics or metrics touch
I’ll stick with the old school viewpoint, than you. But then, I’m a dinosaur
Shelton is a failure because he’s not a communicator nor is he a guy who inspires young players. It’s ok to be a player’s manager—Hurdle was that—but failing to teach, inspire or penalize lack of hustle or lack of focus is a cardinal sin. I thought Joe Espada would have been a better choice for that reason and the fact that the team now has many Latin players. That’s water under the bridge
Lastly, we are now in season two of a huge drop off in Reynolds’ hitting. It can’t be all blamed on Haines and while there are likely other factors, it again speaks to your point about 68 games remaining
As I asked when they were 20-8, where will the hits come from, the homers, the runs?
The Pirates will need to win 31 of those games to achieve my bottom line prediction of 72 wins. Add in the pitching woes and I just don’t see that happening
Should I be happy with 5 more wins or so than last season, and perhaps 95 losses? Is that improvement. I don’t think so, and I’m trying to see the bigger picture, too
Suwinski strikes out too often to be batting anywhere in the top 5 slots
If he can make adjustments and learn how to lay off pitches not over the plate then he’s earned a promotion to a higher spot
And Bae, other than Hedges, is the best player most effective using a bunt. With the former’s speed there’s no reason why he can’t lead off.
I don’t think Suwinski is a star, I think he’s a good player. I think he should have been an All-Star, not because he’s some great player, but because CF is a weak position in the NL right now and he’s one of the best (All-Stars aren’t all great, sometimes even that good, of players).
Suwinski would have absolutely started for Murtaugh, Tanner, and Leyland, even on the World Series teams. He was better than Virdon and Skinner on the ’60 team, better than Al Oliver on the ’72 team, and better than Bill Robinson on the ’79 team. Some of those teams from the 70’s/80’s/90’s also had HORRIBLE outfields, so Suwinski would have been the best outfielder on several teams in the 70’s/80’s/90’s.
I think you just dislike him because he strikes out a lot, which is fine, but you should just admit that. He’s not your kind of player, but that doesn’t mean he’s not good.
The reason Bae shouldn’t bat leadoff is because he wasn’t getting on base. It’s basic math, if you don’t get on base the better hitters don’t have anyone to bat in. This isn’t advanced Calculus or analytics, it’s common sense.
I think Bae has the tools to hit leadoff, but when his OBP is barely .300, he hurts the team in that spot.
If we can’t agree on basic facts that have existed in baseball since the 1800’s, I don’t even know how to have a conversation.
Hitter your best hitters at the top of the order regardless of skillset has been the norm in baseball since the days of Honus Wagner. You don’t hit someone leadoff just because he can bunt and he’s fast if he’s hitting for a low average and getting on base only 30% of the time. This is little league stuff that every manager in the history of the game follows.
At first, I thought you were joking
Starting over outfields of Bonilla, Bonds and Van Slyke?
Over Stargell, Alou and the Great One?
Better than Oliver?
Or Bill Robinson and Billy Virdon?
Let’s agree to disagree
I’ll grant that I’d rather have him out there than Gene Clines, Vic Davalilo or the Sangy experiment
It’s consistency, Buc. Nothing more.
Suwinski puts together consistently poor at bats. It’s that simple
Corn,
No, he wouldn’t start over Bonds or Van Slyke, but he’d start over Bonilla because Bonilla would get moved to first base or DH nowadays (he was terrible in the outfield and at 3b).
Matty Alou only played for the Pirates for 5 seasons, but no, during those 5 seasons I wouldn’t have started Suwinski over any of those three (although I probably would have started Suwinski in LF and put Stargell at 1b).
Suwinski in 2023 is better than Virdon, Robinson, and Oliver were the years they won the World Series (go look it up, it’s not particularly close). That was the point I was making. You’re now conceding the point that he would have started on teams during that era, which isn’t something you originally said. He’d start on most of them.
Suwinski strikes out a ton, but to say a guy near the top of the league in walks puts together “consistently poor at bats” is kind of a bizarre comment. Just say he’s inconsistent and that would make more sense. I think he should be more aggressive and it would cut down on his K’s and walks, but I’m not the coach.
Bunting as a means of beating out a throw to first .
Bae has accomplished this a few times this year so why not have him bunt?
Instead Shelton allows him to swing away
A team that lacks offense and potential scoring opportunities, a speedy player who knows how to bunt for a hit should be used
I guess you don’t believe in bunting either
He couldn’t be any worse than the strike out while looking leader Jack Suwinski
another stat not yet discussed regarding Suwinski, his ability to go into lengthy slumps
He’s currently 0 for his last 17 ABs, before the break he was mired in a 0 for 24 slump I believe
He’s too erratic to be in the #1, 3, 4 or 5th in the batting order
a player that has almost twice as many strikeouts as hits should never be considered a good player
Buc, I don’t know how old you are but Jack is simply not of the same caliber as Oliver or Robinson
Virdon predates me a bit but I’d wager older fans would disagree there,too
The eye test. Again.
You’ll tell me a .228 average is inconsequential but it reinforces what I see.
LMAO
Analytics books? What are you even talking about? Analytics aren’t the end all be all and I haven’t even been using them at all under this post. I’m not an analytics only person, I believe in the eye test and traditional scouting.
“You seem to think you’re some kind of genius”
“the rest is over your head”
“I will have another response to your trash further up”
Condescending much? I worked in baseball, I know exactly how front offices work.
This is the fourth year of the rebuild, but only the third year of development for prospects (2020 was a lost year with no minor league baseball).
I apparently see the overall picture better than you because I’m not cherry picking statistics. You can’t pretend like April didn’t happen, it did. The team is on pace for 71.4 wins, 9.4 more than last season. Might want to stop the condescending name calling and actually debate my points.
now I see where the know it all approach comes from, you worked in baseball
I’m not a know it all. I back up all my points with facts and links and admit when I’m wrong (just did it with Cornwhisperer).
Another mysterious statement. You see the bigger picture better?
That’s interesting, as they have had consecutive 100- loss seasons
And it’s convenient that you don’t wish to count 2020….they were beyond pathetic.
I’m going to be reminding in October about their loss total, and in ‘24 and ‘25 when the rebuild hits years five and six
Buc-Great post by you.Gives me food to discuss.
You work in baseball,huh?
On the Pirates ground crew?Just kidding.I am sure that you are a high salaried executive.
You use the term “condescending” as if you own it.
Which you do.
You are no mathematical genius if you think that the 20-8 record of the first month is anything more than chimera.It is as far off as the 2013-2015 cumulative record.Their record at 40 wins was 48 losses.That is a 54 win season.If they win 1/3 of the games going out it is 23 and 46.That means 63-99 record.If you want 75-87,they need to go 34-35.
Now if you work in baseball Buctober wouldn’t that mean that you are smart enough to figure that out on your own?Or have your people figure it out for you?
my first question of the day, why isn’t Buctober2 still working in baseball? Could it be because he was fired for incompetence?
Mendoza,
I don’t work in baseball, again with the reading comprehension. I WORKED in baseball, past tense.
The only person being condescending is you.
The rest is a hodge podge of hypotheticals that you can neither prove or I can disprove other than saying none of that has happened yet. There are 68 games left.
At least Corn said he’ll wait until the end of the season to either say I told you so or admit he was wrong. You’re claiming victory with 68 games left in the season. You appear to be “cheering” for the Pirates to stink, which seems bizarre for a self-proclaimed fan.
TheMan3,
Or could it be because I found a better job that paid more, didn’t require I work every holiday, or require 60+ hours per week every week?
But, I don’t care if you believe that or not, you’ll continue to be a condescending jerk. I’d recommend you stop responding to my posts. You don’t appear capable of debate or rebuttal without personal attacks on my character.
I dunno, Buc. I’m trying to again see the bigger picture after last night’s loss. At some point, you come to the idea that this is simply who they are
I said early on this season that I was good with 75 wins (predicted 72-75) and that I’d be ecstatic over a .500 season which seemed attainable early on. I’m very doubtful of 72-75 at this point
Last night was a “reliever game” for the Guardians. The Pirates made them all look like some combination of Al Hrabosky, Lee Smith and Mariano Rivera.
I won’t pass judgment on Priester yet. He threw three solid innings and fell apart. He deserves more of a look and I wasn’t expecting a Strasburg-like debut. But it’s emblematic of all of the guys who come to the big club and I’ll leave it at that
Corn,
I don’t have much faith in the offense until Andy Haines is gone. He’s been one of the worst hitting coaches in baseball since 2018. He ruined Christian Yelich and almost destroyed the rest of his career (he’s since rebounded this season) and he’s going to do the same to Reynolds and everyone else.
Bryan Reynolds fix is so easy it’s bizarre Haines hasn’t addressed it (they’re supposedly neighbors and good friends). Reynolds is having the same issue as he was early last season, he’s crouching too much when hitting left-handed. If you go look at videos of him the last 4 months of last season or years prior he’s much, much more upright in the box. He was crouching this much when he was in his epic slump to start last season. (almost identical looking at the video).
It’s no secret Cruz had to bring in his hitting coach in from the DR to turn his rookie season around, and Bae admitted he started going to Cutch instead of Haines for advice when he started to turn it around. There are probably more examples than this.
I’m not exaggerating when I say that Haines completely destroyed the Brewers lineup and he inherited a very good offense when he took the job. If he’s not shown the door soon he could ruin a lot of the young players careers.
Forgetting Haines for a minute, last night was the most talented lineup the Pirates have run out for a game since 2015, however, it’s so young. I’m glad they’re just going full youth movement to get through some growing pains this season instead of next. Pitching is still a problem because most of the best pitchers are still in AA/AAA and not yet ready for MLB, so it’ll need supplemented via trade in the offseason. I’m excited for the future for the first time in years.
The problem is the kids need to not have Andy Haines in their ears telling them wrong things to do. I’d like Shelton to go as well (I’ve made that clear), but Haines ABSOLUTELY can’t be with the team anymore.
Here’s Reynolds from the last month (hitting homeruns):
mlb.com/video/bryan-reynolds-homers-8-on-a-fly-bal…
mlb.com/video/bryan-reynolds-homers-9-on-a-fly-bal…
Here he is from last August/September:
mlb.com/video/bryan-reynolds-homers-16-on-a-fly-ba…
mlb.com/video/miles-mikolas-in-play-run-s-to-bryan…
mlb.com/video/bryan-reynolds-two-home-runs?q=Seaso…
Here is his from his best season in 2021:
mlb.com/video/reynolds-2nd-half-highlights?q=Playe…
It’s such an easy fix it’s maddening that it’s not being addressed. The only explanation is that Haines and the coaching staff are totally incompetent.
you can recommend that I not respond to your posts or use the mute option
Freedom of Speech allows me to respond regardless of any recommendations
name the last pitcher(s( the Pirate batters didn’t make look like the second coming of Roger Clemens in his prime
LMAO. Okay, buddy.
Buc, I’ve said often that calls for Shelton to be dismissed because of his lineup assembly alone are folly. In many cases, he has had few options where personnel is concerned. I’m putting aside other areas he’s failed in, of course
While I agree with your comment about Haines and his demolition of the Brewers and Yelich—funny, because Yanks fans say the same about how a hitting coach destroyed Andujar—a similar point comes to mind. You could bring in a team of Charlie Lau clones and they couldn’t right the ship here
I’ll grant you the Reynolds notes you’ve put forward but while his power numbers were up last year, his consistency was off. This season, I’m sure you’ve noticed that not only are both off but he’s swinging at or taking pitches that he never has before
But let’s focus on the young players coming up. Other than Davis, I’m amazed at the incredible lack of plate discipline, from ignorance of an umpire’s strike zone, to the inability to pick up spin pitches, to a complete lack of knowledge regarding counts and pitcher strategies.
Haines is Haines. I get it. But much of this should have been picked up on the farm. It’s why many of us keep harping on player development. Are they just continually being told to “go out and there are get your hacks” and that’s it for instruction? Haines can’t get blood from a stone and there are a whole host of kids here who often hit as though they still believe they’re in A ball
Guess that’s my problem with the overall criticism of Haines. So much of the things we see should’ve been refined on the farm
They’ve won 41 games this season, so the answer is several. LOL.
Corn,
The reason Reynolds is struggling is because of Haines and his relationship with him, you can’t convince me otherwise. He’s crouched so low he’s consistently off balance, and it’s probably causing his back problems as well. It’s incomprehensible that it’s allowed to continue.
I strongly disagree with your plate discipline argument, most of the guys that have been called up had plate discipline as a strength coming up through the system, Davis, Rodriguez, and Triolo especially. I don’t want Haines to ruin them too. He needs to go.
I haven’t seen enough of Endy
I generally have liked what I’ve seen from Triolo and yes, I like Davis
But let’s be more specific:
Marcano, Bae, Castro, Suwinski (sorry), the revolving door of outfielders and to a great degree, Hayes….are glaring examples
Yes, Haines should go for your very reasons. But the player development department should feel some heat, too
Corn,
See, I don’t lump guys that aren’t high level prospects in with the others. Marcano and Castro don’t have the talent to be an everyday player and were never considered as such, they were just forced into bigger roles than they should have because of Cruz’s injury. But, even they performed well in the minor leagues. Heck, Marcano hit .278 with a high on base percentage AND struck out less than he walked in the minor leagues. He didn’t stink at hitting until he met Mr. Andy Haines.
Bae I think has the talent to be more than Marcano/Castro, but he’s struggled his rookie season. I mentioned earlier that when he stopped listening to Andy Haines and started going to Cutch he started hitting, maybe he should continue to do that. Bae, like Marcano, hit extremely well in the minor leagues. He has a .294 career average in the minors with a .373 on base and a low strikeout rate. It’s a common theme and I’ll stop there.
Moral of the story is these guys performed and developed well in the minor leagues, but all take a step back and seem to lose their plate discipline once they get to the majors. I’d fire Haines and promote one of the minor league hitting instructors, they seem to know what to do with these guys.
Buc, I’m going to take your advice and wait and see. You’ll forgive me for saying that having heard it all before, I’m not expecting much. To me and others, the players arriving here have had a distinct, un-polished look to them when compared with young players arriving in other franchises
I do believe there is a core of players in place here, but certainly they are in need of other young guys to come up and provide more hits, runs and solid consistency on the mound
Yes, the guys who’ve come up due to necessity more than anything else. I’d rather see them than a lineup of retreads. Hope they progress quickly
I’m not your buddy
Marcano played in Indy earlier in the season at an alarming pace, battling over.400 through more than a handful of games
As soon as he was promoted and inserted into the lineup, hits become scarce
Same with Palacios, his hits also become scarce after being promoted
Because they are able to hit minor league pitchers, it doesn’t always happen in the majors, and Haines couldn’t have found a way to tamper with their offense. There wasn’t enough time
Neither Palacios or Marcano are guys that have the talent to be a regular at the MLB level (they were both just in hot streaks in the minors). Maayyyybe Marcano could be an everyday second baseman if he finds a way to hit for average, but I doubt it.
Strongly disagree. Haines takes the aggressiveness out of every hitter and preaches extreme patience as that’s the “philosophy” that youngsters have to follow once they get to the majors.
And they now share last place with the Cardinals
anyone know what the over/under for team offensive strikeouts and runs for tonight’s game?
Buc-You are correct on the past tense but you have retained your holier than thou attitude when others disagree with you on facts and you pick and choose which ones you want to use.
I would be more than happy for them to win 69 games as I would win a bet because anything else from this season is lost.I hope that you are correct and they win 75.I think with you that they have a deep and good crop of young players.You also realize that Shelton and Haines are both losers and should have been jettisoned a year ago.But you are the one who would accept the circus that is ongoing this year.
I do not think that you realize the emotional toll that it takes on players to continue losing for years and years.The older ones are just as ashamed as I am of this current team.I also do not doubt that they know that serious changes need to be made for the young players to be able to achieve their max in playing ability.
I think that you are a knowledgeable poster who I agree with most of the time.But your condescending attitude begs of arrogance and you use facts only as they fit your arguement.Being a small market team puts a ceiling on how good a team can be,but it is absolutely no excuse for being the circus that the Pirates currently are.You continue to use starting pitching injuries as an excuse and compare Jack Suwinski with some of the Pirate greats from the period when baseball was not a business tilted to the large teams but still a sport.
It seems to me that these flaws come from a lack of knowledge of Pirate history and too much reliance on numbers which do not take into account the overall picture.For instance,you cannot quantify the adversity caused by Shelton jumping people around in the lineup.You may know that but others may be oblivious to it.
Statistics are meant to be a tool,but baseball is meant to be played by humans.There are overlying factors that cannot be quantified.
I never suggested either had the talent to play or be starters at the major league level
Only that hitting minor league pitchers doesn’t always translate into hitting major league pitchers
and if you’re correct that Haines preaches patience why are these guys unable to get on base with a hit, and more often than not, swing at pitches nowhere near the plate? Is there any possibility they don’t know the strike zone? It all baffles me
Mendoza,
I don’t just use stats. I firmly believe in the human element of sports and even the eye test. If you have me pegged for strictly an analytics guy, you’d be very wrong.
I don’t think the team will win 75 games anymore, that was my prediction prior to the season before all the injuries. I think they’ll be lucky to win 70 now, which is fine with me now with everything that’s happened because they’ll get a higher draft pick. I like that they’re embracing the youth movement. I’m not okay with Shelton and Haines still being employed, and don’t have high hopes for the future if they remain employed.
I didn’t compare Suwinski to any Pirates legends, I said he was better than some solid, but not great players from World Series Pirates teams. Corn kept comparing him to Stargell for some reason so I used that comparison for a single post. It’s not fair to compare a young player to a player like Stargell, that’s why I don’t do it normally.
I’m a baseball history buff and know a lot about Pirates history. I just disagreed with Corn and said that Suwinski this season has been better than Robinson, Virdon, and Oliver (and Clines and Davalillo) during the World Series years (he said Suwinski wouldn’t have started on any of those teams). That’s not a high bar as none of those players listed were anything other than solid at best those years (some were bad).
I compared Suwinski with Stargell due to obvious profile similarities. Home runs, RBI, strikeouts. Let me throw batting average in there, too
Again, I don’t know how old you are. Your admiration of Suwinski is remarkable. That you would refer to the guys I listed—Bonds, Clemente, Van Slyke, Stargell, Alou, Moreno and Bonilla, Virdon—as “solid at best” and “not a high bar” is laughable.
I’ll leave the debate at that. I think Suwinski has a great deal of potential and at times he reminds of Brian Giles, and somehow, I think that’s not a high bar for you either, even though the guy hit 287 homers and a lifetime average of around .290.
Corn,
I don’t know if you didn’t read what I wrote or what, but I hope you aren’t intentionally misleading anyone reading this. I’m really hoping that’s not the case. Please go re-read my two posts.
Only Virdon of the guys you listed is who I referred to Suwinski being better than. He’s not as good as the rest and I never claimed he’s even close to as good as several HOFers. In fact, I said I’d NEVER compare him to a HOFer because it’s not fair (direct quote by me).
The “solid at best” and “not a high bar” comments was about Robinson, Virdon, Oliver, Clines, Davalillo, etc. and anyone that read my posts knows that since they’re the only ones I named. I never mentioned the rest.
I’ll chalk it up to a misunderstanding and won’t hold a personal grudge against you.
Let me step in here as a non biased intermediary.I think that I can Do a service to my friends corn and The Man and you Buc..
Corn says he is a dinosaur.The Man I think would say that we are experienced observers.I say that we are three good lookin’ older gentlemen.
I am about exactly in the middle of them and you on Suwinski.Yes,he would be an all star for the Pirates,but only if Keller and Bednar would not available.In essence,that is damning with faint praise.
We go back far enough to remember all of these players that you mention very fondly.We are biased in that regard,as they were all part of World Series winning teams.I doubt that you remember any of them..Consequently,all you have is the data.
I do not think that you are slave to data.
I think that you are comparing just the WS winning year data,and I will have to defer to you on the accuracy.Suwinski May or may not get better,but his career is just starting,and it is easy but unfair to use him as an example of Pirate hitter ineptitude with this circus team outfit as it is now.
Clines was a fine platoon player in CF.Davalillo was an excellent pinch hitter.But what you cannot understand because you did not experience it is how each of these other players brought a level of skill to the game that is quite often not captured by data.
Oliver was virtually a gold glove first baseman who moved to CF with very little loss of skill in order to insert Bob Robertson into first base.
Matty Alou was a 230 hitter with San Francisco who literally became a 330 hitter and won the batting title the next year because Harry Walker taught him to drag bunt and chop at the ball much like The Man wants someone to do with Bae.Bill Virdon was ROY with St Louis in the mid 1950’s and a key hitter at #2 in 1960.He was also the next best CF after Mantle and Mays,something that these stats can never show,and had a very good and respected ten year career with the Pirates.Bill Robinson was a first round draft choice of the Yankees who became a fine clutch hitter with the the Pirates and a key component to a WS winning team.
I hope that this post helps to clarify some of the differences that you have with the other two and show how knowledgeable baseball observers can disagree on what they know.Those older players were all part of championship teams so that makes all of them champions as each were an important part of those teams.Suwinski is doing his best to reach that point and I think that he can probably reach it with competent hitting coaches.
Yep, misread it. Apologies. Virdon was not an offensive dynamo by any stretch and instead, was a defensive oriented guy
Agree there
One of earliest memories is being at Forbes Field when the Pirates shockingly put him in a game even though he was officially listed as a coach in ‘68
Corn- They activated him before the game.I think that he had averaged 4 or 5 home runs a year during his career.
In his first game back he pinch hit a home run.
He may have been leadoff,but I think that he had been the #2 hitter with Groat leading off and quite often was used to move Groat over to second.
That is how the game was played then- it was not home run or no count.They had a good enough team that one run meant a lot.
Fundamentally,Virdon was near perfect.
Yeah, I’m sure you’re right. I remember the crowd being somewhere between thrilled and surprised.
Very well stated. I get the idea that Buc wasn’t around for many of the guys listed and as you say, relies on data. That’s fine and understandable but comparisons might as well be apples versus oranges
I said somewhere that in a somewhat modern sense, Suwinski reminds me of Brian Giles and having said that, I shudder at the thought of more blowback
if all this team is playing for is a higher draft pick, the rebuilding will never end
High draft picks with this franchise doesn’t always translate into solid players or even mediocre ones,
They promoted Endy and in the 2 games he’s been catching, they have been blown out 21 runs to 1 and he’s struck out 6 times in 7 ABs
If player development and major league coaching doesn’t improve it won’t matter who they draft
It’s hilarious to actually see guys coming up and compare them with counterparts in other organizations
I count two guys I’ve seen who could also be celebrated elsewhere: Cruz and Davis. That’s it. None of the guys who’ve come here dating back to last year look like the types of guys who’ll propel this team into competitiveness
It’s an abject joke
But keep throwing analytics and metrics at us that tell us to not believe what we see game in and game out
The Pirates have had top draft picks and have “re-stocked” their farm for years. I see nothing here that will lead this team to being competitive anytime soon
mired in an 0 for 24 slump which includes 13 strikeouts, Shelton again bats Suwinski in the lead off position in the lineup for today’s game
Marcano is playing shortstop and Hedges is catching. Cutch, arguably the best player hitting recently isn’t in the lineup
I truly believe Shelton goes out of his way to lose. There isn’t any other rational explanation to his incompetence
Paul-Everyone in Pittsburgh knows Shelton should be fired,even many of the fantasy baseball experts..That is,except one person,and that is Cherington,Some posters here are more intent on losing more and getting high draft choices.Their interest is in following minor league players more than than winning ML games.The rebuild for them is what is interesting,and they do not care that it never ends.
True fans want the Pirates to win.
This season has gone from bad to horrible to comical to circus like to sad to very very sad.
They are again the worst team in baseball.And that does not matter to some on this site.
And it does not matter to Shelton and evidently to Cherington.
And in that regard I think that we have to begin to understand that Cherington is part of the problem too.He is getting to the point where I think that he has accomplished scouting and drafting acumen,and most of his trades have been good,but he is failing at other key issues,namely hiring and firing.
I am now wondering whether he will be part of Nutting’s next purge.
Well stated.
Just a hodge lodge of things today—
-The local sports radio station published a story that entailed Hayes not being happy in Pittsburgh. Somehow, this was attributed to his old man. Hayes himself deflected that this afternoon, saying he has only been frustrated with his nagging back injury and nothing else. I dunno. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire and for the cornerstone of the franchise to intimate he wouldn’t be averse to being traded is troubling
-Which brings us to Triolo. I wonder if anyone else sees the pleasant problem they now have as it’s apparent that the kid belongs here. But where? You can’t have him sitting the bench like Marcano. Any chance he gets some reps at 1st?
-If anyone has the stomach to still watch Potash and McHenry do their post game shpiel, they were treated to a list of bad losses the ‘79 team
had that mirrors this recent Pirate stretch. Seriously. You can’t make this stuff up
-Gonzales had a couple hits today Another guy who you wonder about where being lost in Shelton’s mix when Bae is back and he’s part of a triumvirate at 2nd
-Lastly, I’d bet the Pirates are getting call after call about Bednar. The guy is tremendous. But I wonder if anyone on this team is really untouchable
Had to laugh. A couple days ago, PG columnist talked about there finally being a Pirates team he was interested in watching because the kids are all here. This morning he talked about what a train wreck this team is and his thought that Cherington has to be on the hot seat next year
Guess the first two games against the Guardians were enough for him to understand
Corn-I hope that Hayes’ back gets better at the end of the year.
This will give time to evaluate Triolo.Methinks that he is comparable to Hayes with little power especially for a third baseman.
Hayes does not impress me as a go getter type of player who often seems disinterested.He has virtually no power and only hits when he seems motivated.He of course is gold glove caliber in the field but I prefer guys like Choi who really seemed like he was into winning this game.
If Triolo can prove himself over half a season I would not have a problem with trading Hayes if they could get a first rate young starting pitcher for him.Ever since he got the contract he does not seem to be intto playing here,although it also may be that he,like us,is tired of all of the losing.
Yeah, I have to agree
He’s a defensive ace but he’s also a microcosm of the hype that come from the Pirates and others here. I remember all too well about what a line drive hitter this guy was supposed to be and “probably a 20 homer guy”
Yeah. Right
The sunflower seed incident kind of reflects his interest here. When I talk about a number of Pirates who seem to be ok with losing, he kind of tops the list for me
and in typical fashion, Suwinski strikes out on a pitch nowhere near the strike zone
Corn-I think it difficult to compare players over vastly different eras.
One must remember that all of the Pirate players are really very young and should get better over time.
That being said,Giles was a member of the “ Hall of Very Good”.
Suwinski still has to get there.
The great thing about baseball is that in general, the basics haven’t changed. Either you can hit, pitch, field and throw or you can’t. Sure, pitchers generally all throw in the 90’s now and yes, there is more an emphasis on power in the batters box, but there are basics all can see
Barry Bonds could have played in any generation
I’d think Cutch is a guy who’s in the same category as is former Pirate Garrett Cole
The Pirates currently have no one, save for Cutch, who would rate as a star player across generations, no one who has a refined style and is consistent on the mound, at bat or in the field
I don’t need meaningless analytics to know that. I have the benefit of inherent baseball knowledge. It’d almost be funny to watch such historical revisionism if it wasn’t so disturbingly wrong
There’s a nice bio article in todays Trib that talks about Skenes and his character and how he’ll transform. Great. They’ll need that quickly.
I get the sense that Davis is in the same mold of hustle and hating to lose
When all of top tier guys are finally here, you’d hope that the front office will then determine who is in that vein and who is just comfortable with being here and ok with losing day after day. That includes Shelton
Too many of the latter here right now
Hopefully Shelton and Cherington will feel their seats getting much hotter in 2024
*…how he’ll transform the clubhouse
From everything I’ve read, Santana, Hill and Cutch are great clubhouse leaders
The real leadership belongs with the manager and his coaching staff
These guys along with Hill have to be amazed at what they are involved in here. They’ve all played for good teams but this must be mind blowing to them
I’d wonder what they say about it all in private conversations
And you’re right. There’s only so much they can say in the locker room. They don’t call the shots
I imagine Hill is anticipating being traded and might even be looking forward to going to a team that wants to win
He’s actually one of my favorite players on this team and would hate to see him go but BC is forced to dump salaries to get low level talent in return. Neither Hill or Santana will give us anything substantial in return
And I don’t blame either, I blame management
and what does Suwinski do in his first AB?
STRIKES OUT
He’s now at 102 on the season
Player leadership most definitely worked-for one month.
If Shelton and BC aren’t already feeling the hot seat waiting until 2024 could wind up being another waste of season