There’s been ample speculation surrounding the Mariners’ excellent young rotation since it was reported that the Cardinals had interest in 26-year-old righty Logan Gilbert. And while a trade involving one of Seattle’s talented arms could be a long shot due to the lofty asking price associated with all controllable young starters, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports that the M’s would at least consider dealing from their stock in order to acquire a young hitter with several years of control remaining.
Seattle’s rotation features veteran ace Luis Castillo and a quartet of touted young righties: Gilbert, George Kirby, Bryce Miller and Bryan Woo. Gilbert and Kirby have largely established themselves as quality big league arms, while Miller and Woo have impressed during their rookie efforts.
Gilbert, sporting a 3.88 ERA, 24.4% strikeout rate and 4.4% walk rate in 20 starts, is controllable for four more years beyond the current season. Kirby (3.49 ERA, 22.6% strikeout rate, 2.4% walk rate) has an additional five seasons of control remaining. Miller (3.96 ERA, 23.9% strikeout rate, 5.1% walk rate in 75 innings) and Woo (4.91 ERA but a 28.9% strikeout rate and 7% walk rate in 44 innings) would each come with six seasons of control beyond the current year. Both Miller and Woo were ranked among the sport’s top 100 prospects at the time of their respective promotions.
The price to acquire any of those arms would surely be steep; not only would the Mariners be seeking a controllable bat to plug into the lineup — they’d likely be seeking a high-end, all-around contributor. Reds fans have regularly asked in MLBTR chats about the possibility of shipping Jonathan India to the Mariners for one of those starters, for instance, but league-average offense at second base and three-plus years of control likely isn’t enough to sway Seattle president of baseball operations Jerry Dipoto to part with anywhere from four to six seasons of control over a big league starter. (Notably, Rosenthal suggests a trade of India is far likelier in the offseason than in the next few days.) The same could well apply to Cardinals outfielder Dylan Carlson — another roughly league-average hitter with three-plus seasons of club control remaining.
Should the Mariners find an offer to their liking on any of their talented young arms, Rosenthal suggests they could call up Emerson Hancock from Double-A. The former sixth overall pick has a 4.26 ERA with solid but not eye-popping strikeout and walk numbers over 19 starts there. Rosenthal also floats the possibility of Seattle acquiring an impending free agent starter — perhaps in a Teoscar Hernandez swap with another win-now club — to step into a rotation spot vacated by a trade of a controllable arm. Marco Gonzales is currently on the injured list but could return later in the season; perhaps Robbie Ray will make it back from Tommy John surgery at some point next year.
While a deal involving one of Seattle’s controllable starters would be tough to pull off, trades of shorter-term veterans could be easier to line up. Reliever Paul Sewald is surely of interest to a number of clubs, and Joel Sherman of the New York Post reported tonight (on Twitter) that Seattle is signaling an openness to moving him.
Sewald has been one of the best relievers in the sport since breaking out with Seattle in 2021. He owns a 2.90 ERA in 170 2/3 innings in an M’s uniform. The right-hander has been effective in all three seasons, including an even 3.00 ERA over 42 frames this year. He’s striking out just under 36% of opponents against a modest 7.9% walk rate.
The 33-year-old righty is playing this season on a $4.1MM arbitration salary. He’s eligible for that process once more before hitting free agency during the 2024-25 offseason. The asking price on Sewald obviously wouldn’t be as extreme as those on the M’s starters, but Seattle would surely aim high in those talks as well.
Seattle NEEDS India and then to sign him to an extension. 2b has been an issue for a very long time. Send woo+ a lower end guy. Make it happen.
India is not good with the glove.
Or the bat.
Probably since before Robimson Cano right?
Bret Boone wasn’t bad.
Yeah, but they won’t let you do steroids anymore…thanks a lot Obama!
India is overrated. If you disagree, ask your own eyes.
The Mariners are 26-3 when they have 10 or more hits in a game. Best record in baseball…They have the pitching just need 2 good not great bats without selling Gilbert or Woo (Miller would be fine) to get them to where they want to be next year. Ray coming back hopefully healthy will cover losing a SP in a deal
Did you not read the article where it said it would probably take more than India for one of those starters?
You missed the joke. India (country) and the player is not worth seeing… from personal experience living there
Who missed it?
Such a big country… I cannot recommend Baltimore, but the Rockies are nice.
Ohhh, we get it! That was a real humdonger of a joke, buddy!
Why should the M’s settle for India, let alone extend him? If we get a controllable bat it should be worth it.
Kirby for Duran?
I would do it in a heartbeat before he turns into Rougned Odor. Most Rangers’ fans, however, seem deluded into thinking he is elite. One guy on lonestarball.com even said Duran > Juan Soto. Lol. Being a realist, I highly doubt the Mariners are that stupid, though. Texas has guys like JP Martinez, Dustin Harris, and Elier Hernandez, but I don’t trust them to look at numbers and promote properly, so they would likely not call up Foscue either and move Semien to shortstop since Seager is on the IL. In that case, I fear it may not be a good idea to deal him away and replace him with Josh Smith. Then, again, I don’t trust most humans with logic and reasoning.
You’ve reversed who needs to add throw-ins in the deal.
If Seattle were to trade Gilbert or one of their other under 26 year old starters, their best match would be with Baltimore. Baltimore has the right type of players/bats with 5+ years of control left. Maybe a Colton Cowser + another young, highly touted prospect for Gilbert? It would make sense for both clubs, but it will cost Baltimore (or any other team) some serious talent to acquire Gilbert. India is not enough of a return for Gilbert.
The Orioles farm system outside Rutschman, Holliday, and Henderson is severly overrated. None of those guys make a difference. When they talk about trading forbyoung controllable talent, we’re talking Rutschman, Henderson, Tatis, Carroll, that’s the level of return involved in a Gilbert trade. Tgere would have to be other pieces on both sides depending on the guy coming back, but id he isn’t a lock to bat 1-5 in the order, our pitching isn’t going to be moved.
There is no way you think Gilbert is worth the players you mentioned?
Come back to Earth friend. Gilbert isn’t getting you anywhere close to those players
The Cubs have a glut of young, cost controlled OFers. Mostly RH hitters. To make room for some (like Morel), I think someone like Seiya Suzuki and some cash might be an interesting match with Seattle. I like Seiya and he still has 3 years of control after this season- but the Cubs strength is their abundance of OFers – and now Tauchman is also really playing at a high level.
Have you looked at the Mariners farm system? We have current and potential top 100 prospects in Cole Young, Michael Arroyo, Colt Emerson, Tai Peete, Axel Sanchez, and a host of other b-level options coming through who are 2B or SS, who could cover the position or push J.P. off SS to 2B.
Why would we trade for India, let alone extend him? He’s garbage. You do realize that Caballero is better across the board and should already be starting at 2B against LHP and RHP both. His struggles against RHP comes from sitting for three days between at bats and not getting to face them regularly. Servais believes too much in platooning.
Caballero at one point was the closest Mariner to getting elected by the fans for the All-Star game at 5th place among 2B players in the AL. That we are even talking about it is acomplete joke. Especially, when literally wvery game he plays he’s the one guy who stands out for his contributions consistently, even on a bad day he makes amazing defensive plays, finds a way to get on base, steal a bag, etc.
It’s a shame Servais is too inept to realize he’s the one guy worth starting every gsme besides Julio.
India is garbage. I agree.
Axel Sanchez is not a very likely ML player but I get what you’re saying. Why anyone thinks India would need to be extended is funny, he has three more years control. That said, I’m not trading any of our young pitchers for him without a lot more coming back.
As someone who’s watched him this year a lot in Everett, I have to agree…I think Axel’s ceiling is utility player.
Has nothing to do with a contract on Gilbert. He still has four years of control after this. If they had concerns about extending him, they wouldn’t even worry about it for at least another two seasons
Servais doesn’t make the lineup decisions alone. They have an analytical team figuring out the best matchups.
Caballero is a role player. They gave him stretches of consistent starts against RHPs and he proved vulnerable to most breaking stuff and especially cutters.
You probably don’t want to hear this, but he could end up in a trade package. Haggerty finally appears to be back on track in Tacoma. Easy to see him recalled soon.
He’s batting .171 in July. Caballero was a nice spark but you’re putting too much value on him. He’s done nothing recently and might lose his spot to Haggerty.
The Reds need a pitcher who won’t be on an innings limit. Woo could go to a team that’s not contending, like the Cardinals. India is not the best fit here. The perfect fit is Brendan Donovan, but it will take more than Woo to pry him away.
Seattke does not NEED any of the players that are/may be available.
That word implies that they are going all out for the lead this year.
But Dipoto has made it clear that it may or may not happen. Mainly he has to consider the future as well as just winning right now.
Personally, I believe the Mariners will pretty much stand pat.
And that is what I want, anyway. Because I think we’ll end up with a wild-card spot, which is just fine.
If they do obtain a player, it will be on the order of another lower-level guy with extraordinary promise for the future.
That’s how I see it.
Stevil won’t agree, but then he always has his own arcane reasons for things.
I think subtracting from their rotation would be a mistake. The young guys need to continue pitching to develop for next year. Would be a step back to trade one only to have to fill in their spot with a pricy free agent
Mariners have plenty of pitching. They need offense.
Mariners have 7 viable starters when everyone is healthy. Don’t forget Ray and Gonzales are gonna be back next year.
I highly doubt Marco’s $15 million team option is getting picked up for next year
That team option is for 2025 not 2024. In 2024 he’s making over 12 million guaranteed.
I am not a Mariners fan. I shouldn’t have to tell you this.
I think Gilbert doesn’t want to do an extension and they’d rather maximize their return in a market like this where we can get top dollar for a young arm with so many guys on the IL. I wouldn’t be surprised if they moved Gilbert and/or Miller or Woo in separate deals and then brought in Snell (local) and/or Cease (a couple years of control left).
And why do you think he doesn’t want an extension? Have you spoken to him?
Nootbaar
Donovan
For
Gilbert
Kelenic
Sewald
Cardinals fans have been telling me that’s too much. Mariners fans will probably say the opposite so I think it’s fair. But both Noot and Donovan have been on fire lately
@king of cards stop trolling. Nootbaar by himself is worth more than those 3.
What? Talk about trolling. Noot by himself is worth more than Gilbert, Kelenic & Sewald? Pass the pipe.
Don’t feed little Stevie. The only thing he does here is troll. He has nothing of value to contribute. The dude’s head is so far up his bootyhole. I better watch out though or he’s gonna ask me why I’m not eating the pudding that my nurse is feeding to me or telling me he’s not gonna change my diaper. Those are his two “comebacks”
@sodomojo listen here boy, we are talking about a 33 year old reliever, a younger version of miles mikolas and a guy in kelenic who has been good an entire 2 months in the big leagues and absolute garbage the rest of the 3 years. You’re out of your god damn mind if you think the cardinals would trade two of the best young players in baseball for them. Those 3 wouldn’t even get you ONE of them and that’s a god damn fact. You need to take your homer glasses off and go to sleep boy.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. So I’ll just stop you right there. The ONLY way that Seattle trades Logan Gilbert is IF they are BLOWN AWAY! And I’m talking Austin Nola trade blown away x10! I’m not gonna sit here and pretend that Nootbar isn’t a good up and coming ball player, but a .268 average with 8 homers doesn’t exactly move the needle for me. Furthermore, Dipoto has said that no deals are even close to being done. They haven’t zeroed in on anything. And this is coming from trader Jerry! The same guy who made a deal from his hospital bed. Again, Gilbert isn’t going anywhere.
You couldn’t get that for Gilbert alone, who when ON is elite. Jarred Kelenic has had his best year to date and still only 23 years old. So I’ll say again, Nootbar, a young guy who hasn’t even been able to play a full season, does NOT get this deal done at all.
PASS, move along
Well if the Cardinals are going to want to contend next year they need pitching and the whole baseball world knows this. What next year they have Matz and mikolos… Not exactly a strong start to contending. Last I saw they won’t have tons of cash to throw at 3-4 “quality” starters. Other teams will take advantage of this and the Cardinals will have to overpay if they want low cost controllable pitching.
Nootbaar and Donovan are not two of the best anything and they are not young either. Donovan will be 27 going into next year and Nootbaar will be 26. Julio Rodriguez, Michael Harris, Ely De La Cruz, Jordan Walker, Wander Franco… those are young players. Nootbaar and Donovan are closer to middle age then young in baseball life.
BTW Nootbaar and Donovan together Wouldn’t get you Gilbert alone. They are both just high on base guys and while that nice, they are redundant to each other. Teams only need one guy like that and more guys who are capable of 20+ home runs to drive them in.
Quit trying to be some lame negotiator Trident. Good players are good players. Will the Mariners ever contend with thar offense? No they wont.
Stevie… I don’t know what you’re so upset about… but no, Lars is good, but he’s not worth dealing Gilbert for from the Mariners side. Again, the Cardinals are trying to pry him away, not the other way around. They are going to have to overpay. Controllable starting pitching is way harder to find. And, there is no way Kelenic is part of that package in return. Comparing their careers is insane as well. For context of what you’re talking about and why it’s crazy, compare what each was doing at that age in their career.
Age 21:
Nootbar: hitting a combined .264 between A+, A, and AA
Kelenic: hitting .320 at AAA Tacoma before being called up to the Majors where he hit .181 with 14 HR’s
Age 22:
Nootbar: 2020 season, didn’t play
Kelenic: hit .296 in AAA and .141 in the MLB
Age 23:
Nootbar: hit .308 in AAA before being called up and hitting .228 in the MLB with 14 HR’s
Kelenic: hitting .252 with 11 HR’s in MLB this year.
Nootbar then went on to hit .228 in his age 24 season before becoming what he is now at age 25. Kelenic is just now the same age Nootbar was when he made his debut in 2021.
Kelenic’s “garbage” years were because he was called up WAY too early, not because of his skills. He needed to mature more. Guys in general should not be called up that early, let alone in the middle of a playoff race. Go look at where ANY of the top stars of today were when they were 21, the age Kelenic made his MLB debut. Here are a few quick examples for you, and heck, we can even stick to Cardinals stars to keep it relative:
At age 21:
Again, Kelenic: hit .320 in AAA before hitting .181 with 14 HRs in MLB
Arenado: hitting .285 in AA
Goldy: playing in Rookie ball before going to A+ at age 22 and AA. MLB debut at age 23
Donovan: playing college ball at South Alabama, A- after
O’Neill: AA for Seattle
Gorman: AA-AAA, debuted at 22 the next year where he hit .226
Walker: Actually somewhat comparable in that he debuted at age 21, but he’s been worth almost -2 dWAR… he’s not an outfielder.
Call Kelenic’s 2 months of success this year his only good ones, but Nootbar hit .239 with 5 HR’s in his age 23 season (worth 0.7 WAR). Kelenic is a 2 WAR player this season and Nootbar is at 2.3, and Kelenic is still 2 years younger. Sorry, I’m taking my chances with Kelenic, ESPECIALLY if you’re trying to get Gilbert on top of that. That’s just silly.
Honestly, there would even more of a debate of whether Nootbaar and Kelenic would go in a 1 for 1 deal for each other. Kelenic is a 2 WAR player now at age 23, makes 729k, and isn’t ARB eligible until 2026. Nootbaar is a 2.3 WAR player now at age 25, makes $1.7M, and is ARB eligible in 2025. I wouldn’t even trade Kelenic straight up for Nootbaar,
Lars Nootbaar is probably the best name in baseball though.
Kelenic is kicking coolers. He’s kind of a knucklehead. Nootbaar is a stand up citizen.
Finally, some sense. And some perspective.
I’m not advocating that either/or team(s) need to overpay. I won’t pretend to know St. Louis’ situation other than they are hunting for controllable starting pitching. Most teams I would say are. A lot of pundits and random fans like to match up with Seattle because they have it in spades. They have found a system and way to develop young high end arms, and yet have burnt themselves on the backside as of now, by not shoring up enough offense to form a league average lineup.
Seattle’s pitching staff keeps them in contention alone. You cannot say that about an above average offense. I say hold, unless someone comes at you with an offer too good to refuse, then find a way to create a formidable offense over the next 3-4 years.
The cooler move was pretty dumb, especially when it was a strikeout in the 9th when they were already down like 8-3 or something and didn’t matter.
Trust me, I fully believe he is one guy that shouldn’t have been called up until he was 23 and followed the same path as Nootbaar. But, when you’re hitting .320 at AAA and the big club is in a playoff run and Haniger goes down… I get why they felt he needed to come up. I do think that set him back a couple of years though… especially watching Julio then sign that contract after.
I’m partial to Kelenic, and a bit biased in his favor. And you are 100% correct, the cooler incident was “dumb.” And he knows that. He’s a young ballplayer, that I’m willing to forgive. His timeable is to be back in action around the beginning of September. I’m not ready to give up on this kid. As for the organization, I have no idea, but I’m thinking they aren’t either with as much as they have invested in him.
He was dissatisfied with the water so replace it, not Kelenic he’s only going to get better.
@iH8PaperStraws your trolling is boring buddy
King of Homers
Trade simulator says it’s fair
That sites not run by Cardinal fans is it???
If it says that’s fair, there’s a fair chance it might be.
What trade simulator?
As another poster pointed out to you last night, that constantly-cited trade simulator also says that Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Arenado, Jordan Montgomery, and Jack Flaherty for JUST Colton Cowser is mildly lopsided in favor of the Cardinals.
I’m guessing you might disagree.
Type mlb trade simulator into Google.
That trade simulator
No I believe that. It’s because of the salary. That trade would never happen because the Orioles aren’t taking on all that salary that’s 70 million or so. So it’s not realistic at all because of that.
You need to use the simulator correctly not try to prove its no good. That’s what I did. You didn’t.
If it says it’s fair, then it MUST be right!
Baseball trade values where they rate players in terms of excess value in the millions, but the guy there has it in for the Mariners. Cole Young, Gabriel Gonxalez, and Michael Arroyo in any other East Coast team would be a Top 100 prospect and are playing abover their age level and dominating, yet he gives them values like struggling college prospects or relievers.
He rates Bobby Miller a $51M and thinks Woo is a $25M and Miller a $23M, while Miller has out-pitched Miller and has the same control. Woo has betrer K% and BB% than Dylan Cease and is only 23 y.o. with the same control somehow the Mariners would have to trade Bryce Miller and Bryan Woo, plus more to get just Bobby Miller, how?
Because he’s biased and doesn’t acknowledge it, even when it is blatantly obvious, use the site with huge error bars in mind.
Oh come on dude
HOU fan (so, neutral?) perspective: that’s a terrible deal for Sea.
That’s 2 hitters with an 800 OPS and many years of team control left. Oh and they both play good defense too.
Not sure why you think it’s unfair.
Gilbert and Kirby are much more valuable than anything you’ve proposed. Choose from ANY of our other pitchers or find a different team to lowball. There is a reason you’ve been proposing trades for Gilbert for months…because his long term value is so great.
Sure I like Miller but not for anything proven like Donovan or Nootbaar. Miller hasn’t proven much he has potential but hasn’t proven he can hold up for a fully season. I do like him.
@King of Cards
It’s a no for Seattle because they need power guys aka IMPACT BATS, not on base guys. They need the guys that change the game with 1 swing of the bat when their starters have dominated a game and it is 1-1 in the 7.
Noot is a very good player, I’m not arguing that. The problem is you aren’t filling the Mariners NEEDS!!
It isn’t just hey this guy is good so it works out. Each team is looking for certain needs. The Mariners need someone to change the game offensively. That isn’t where Noot or Donovan excel. Yes both very good players but not necessarily what the Mariners appear to be looking for.
Who is available that does what you say?
You tell me.
To answer you King…
– Gorman (as we’ve already talked about in another comment),
– Orioles have a plethora of young guys that could be traded that wouldn’t have a huge effect on their MLB roster. Westburg, Cowser, Ortiz, Norby, Mayo, etc. All of them are Top 100 guys. They could offer Kjerstad, Ortiz, and Mayo and that would still leave them with an MLB infield of Westburg, Henderson, Holliday, and Mountcastle for the next 5-7 years. From the Mariners end, that gives us 3 top 100 prospects that would immediately fill our gaps at 3B, 2B, and our 3rd outfield spot to go along with Kelenic and JRod. This is my personal preference.
– They could target Nolan Jones from Colorado. He would be cheaper than Gorman, and might be able to be had for a combination of like Hancock, Marlowe, and some other prospects that are near the majors instead of Gilbert since they’d want more control.
– Reds… get some of that talent back that we gave up for Castillo, the infielders in particular like Noelvi Marte and Arroyo.
– DBacks have some good prospects too, especially with an outfield of Carroll, McCarthy, and Thomas already. Maybe they make Druw Jones available along with some of their other IF prospects NOT named Lawler. Not the best fit though in my mind though as it hurts our MLB club more in the immediate term.
– Padres… I’m sure Merrill + could be had with Tatis/Kim and Bogaerts locking down the middle infield for the next decade. Again, not my favorite fit since it drops a lot after Merrill in terms of hitting prospects.
Those are the initial ones that come to my mind and intrigue me. I’m sure there are plenty of others though.
I just disagree with the idea that the Mariners have to be better right now if they trade Gilbert. They don’t, which is why the Orioles package is my favorite for both teams. The Orioles get 5 playoff runs with Gilbert and their young guys, and the Mariners fill their gaps offensively while still having a rotation of Castillo, Kirby, Ray, Miller, and Woo going forward. Even better if they somehow land Ohtani too.
If the Mariners are selling I agree that makes a lot of sense. I just don’t know if that’s the case or not. My trade ideas with the Mariners are for more proven players because I think the Mariners have to keep going for it not take a step back and wait for young talent to develop.
I think the offers you mention are fair. I just don’t think the Mariners are looking for prospects.
I don’t view those a trade for Gilbert as selling though. The Mariners are a fringe playoff team this year, so I view them as loading up for a run next year. The 3 I mentioned from the Orioles are all set to debut this year or sometime next year, which I think is actually perfect for the Mariners.
The Mariners’ window is around the next 3-5 years. Remember, Castillo, Ray, and Kirby are all under control for the next 4+ years, and Miller and Woo beyond that. Miller and Woo can both be extended a bit next year in terms of innings as well. In terms of 3B, Suarez is there through 2024 as well in which he could then be replaced by Mayo once he’s ready, which would save the Mariners around $10M from his contract while giving us a long-term option at 3B. Ortiz could also take over 2B in 2024, as he really just has to be better than Frazier and Wong have been at the position, which isn’t hard at all. Kjerstad would also be ready in 2024 and could take over the 3rd outfield spot that Teoscar holds now, and would pair with Kelenic and JRod.
I don’t view this deal as selling by any means. Actually, quite the opposite. Those guys give them long term options for their needs to keep competing once Geno and Teoscar are gone. They’d pair with their other young guys in Julio, Kelenic, Kirby, Raleigh, Miller, and Woo to pair with veterans in Castillo, Ray, Crawford, and France to a degree. And, like I said, that would also help keep their team cheap to help in making a run at Ohtani this off-season. Gilbert is their #3 pitcher right now, but that could easily be taken over by Miller next year… who would then also become the #4 if they landed Ohtani.
I’d agree with you if it was a true prospect package with guys that were 3 years out. But with that particular trade, all would help the MLB club next year and for years to come.
Are they 800 to 850 ops or 750 to 800 ops? That’s determines if I would consider it or not. 700 to 800 guys you can find. 800 to 900 is interesting. I’d keep pitchers because that’s what matters.
Both right at 800 dude.
Can you name 3 position players better than Donovan and Nootbaar on the Mariners?
I cant……
I don’t follow them. I liked Crawford Kelenic Rodriguez when they were prospects. I wouldn’t give up on them for those 2.
If they buy I think it will be prospects for rentals. Looks like platoons would improve them significantly. I will give them a freebie. Call Pittsburgh and get Choi to platoon with France. Whatever cheap corner outfielder they can snag. Being weak vs rhp at 2b they will have to live with.
Dude Nootbaar is average, with limited upside. Quit slobbering on his sack.
Nootbaar is on pace for a 5 WAR season. That makes him a top 30 player in baseball easily. I’m convinced some of you are just bots created by the mariners front office. The valuation for your pitchers is absolutely laughable. Gilbert is as mid as it gets. He’s barely worth Carlson or O’Neil, let alone NOOTBAAR or DONOVAN. Absolute rubbish.
Well it would cost Donavan AND Nootbaar just to get a foot in the door.
Keep telling yourself that buddy
There is no way the Mariners take that deal. A deal with Gilbert starts with Gorman and a couple of small pieces and maybe one of the soon to be free agents coming back to take Gilbert’s spot for the rest of the year.
Sorry, but Lars is a bit overrated, and the Mariners don’t need more outfielders while already having JRod and Kelenic. Mariners would need a future IF in return, which is why it has to be Gorman. Archer got back Glasnow, Meadows, and Baz with 2 years of control… Gilbert has 4 years and two months. Mariners need to keep Kelenic too. Doesn’t make sense to have him in this trade.
Honesty, I think the better fits are Baltimore, Cincinnati, or Arizona. Maybe Tampa. Baseball trade values might say it’s fair, but you have to account for team needs too for it to make sense.
I think my trade idea covers both teams needs quite well. Nootbaar is hot as a firecracker right now he had 2 homers tonight. He does everything well he’s a really good player.
Gorman I don’t know. Maybe. We are talking basically Gorman for Gilbert and even then not sure I would do that. Gorman is a future home run king. I think Gilbert has that kind of potential as a pitcher so basically 1 for 1. We toss in Liberatore and take Hancock.
@King I just think it starts with Gorman. Not saying it’s gonna take Gorman, Nootbaar, and Donovan kinda thing, but it could be like Gorman, Montgomery, and a couple of smaller pieces kinda thing.
I do love Gorman, and I would actually consider more of a 1 for 1 swap with him to be relatively fair. I don’t consider the Mariners needing Nootbaar (great name though), or like Carlson or anyone else. I prefer the Mariners stick with Kelenic and JRod in the oufield and get someone like Bellinger for the other spot.
I actually think Gilbert for Gorman and Montgomery would make sense.
Yeah I just don’t know about trading Gorman. I am a very big fan when we drafted him I was telling everyone I think we got the best player in the draft and I still think we did. Him and ONeill who you might remember are very similar they are my 2 favorite players. Can’t miss skills with some flaws you hope they can work out. I just don’t know. Maybe.
Your trade has us selling very low on Kelenic, low on Gilbert, and weakening our team in terms of control years for a lateral move. Kelenic is younger and has more control than Nootbaar, while already being worth as much. Regardless of BTV Nootbaar is not better than. Kelenic. His first month shows his upside, what is Nootbaar’s? .800 OPS corner outfielder with 20 HR and 10 SB? Or a guy who’s becoming a lock for 20/20 or 30/30 seasons in his prime and can actually cover CF when needed? We don’t need to do anything. We are one win in the next two days from playing 22 of 25 games this month against playoff teams, while winning all but one series and we hold the tie-breaker with the Rays, Twins, and Astros currebtly. We are a lot of things, desperste is not one of them.
@King of Cards
That’s the problem you aren’t willing to trade the player (Gorman) it would actually take to get these starters.
The Mariners are looking for that power bat. They are going to settle for Noot and Donovan.
That is like me saying oh the Cardinals need a controllable starter, so let’s offer a relief pitcher for Gorman. It doesn’t fill the Cardinals NEEDS.
Yes the Mariners need offense but they are looking for a specific type of hitter and Noot and Donovan aren’t the type of players they are looking for.
@King of Cards
It’s going to take Gorman or Walker to get Gilbert. It might take 1 of them to get any of the Mariners starters right now. You will have to overpay for SP this time of the year, and drastically overpay for controllable starting pitching.
That’s a dumb analogy.
Low on Gilbert??? And for some reason you think Donovan and Nootbaar have no upside at all lol.
This is supposed to be a discussion. Some of you sound like complete fools.
If Seattle needs IFs, Jordan Westburg would probably be a good starting point for a Gilbert trade package from the Orioles. He’s one of my favorite prospects in our system so I really don’t want to lose him, but with Gunnar, Holliday, Ortiz, Norby, etc. on hand, he is potentially expendable if he can land us a controllable young TOR SP.
Westburg is a starting point for Gilbert?
And you are the guy saying my ideas are no good????
Come on dude get real.
He’s a former first round pick, MLB Pipeline’s current 30th overall prospect, a MIF with 20+ HR upside and solid plate discipline, has already reached the Major League level, and will still have all 6 years of control at the start of the 2024 season. Obviously other good pieces would have to be included, which I acknowledged by using the term ‘starting point,” but fortunately the Orioles have other good pieces to offer.
Westburg isn’t worth anywhere near what Gilbert is dude come on you are being ridiculous.
Have fun with Lorenzen.
Are you intentionally trying to come off as an idiot? If so, you’re absolutely killing it.
Find someone else who thinks Westburg even gets your foot in the door for Gilbert.
You won’t.
Westburg would instantly be the highest rated prospect in the Cardinals system (and a lot of other systems as well), and behind only Ford in the Mariners system, but okay.
And again, we are not talking about a 1-for-1 trade here, no matter how obtuse you insist on being.
Lol no Westburg definitely would not be.
They have prospect rankings you know. You can look this up.
I actually did look it up and they got Westburg ahead if Winn lol. That’s gonna prove to be silly long term. Winn is a future star best arm of any position player in all of baseball.
I did actually, and going by MLB Pipeline’s prospect rankings, Westburg would be the highest ranked prospect in about a third of the league’s systems (including the Cardinals).
@Floch I see you’re getting a ton of crap for the Westburg idea, but I actually think the Orioles are a perfect match. I agree that it probably takes more than just Westburg, but if it was suddenly like Westburg, Cowser, and some smaller pieces… I would definitely listen if I was the Mariners (I am a Mariners fan). Cowser and Westburg are both top 100 prospects at #12 and #30 that are MLB ready now to help the team this year and for years to come.
The Mariners need a future 3B and a 2B. Westburg is already worth 0.6 WAR after 71 ABs in the MLB. As good as Gilbert is and how much he could fetch, I think he is a perfect trade candidate. He would be an ace type on most teams, but is a #3 on the Mariners behind Castillo and Kirby, and dealing him still leaves them with a rotation of Castillo, Kirby, Ray, Miller, and Woo in 2024… plus, what I would assume is a big run to sign Ohtani. They actually make the most sense to me.
Yeah that’s just too high for Westburg. He’s not a team need for the Cardinals at all. The Mariners might do Miller for Westburg that could make sense.
Don’t get him started with Cowser……
It’s not like the Cardinals have anything the Orioles would trade Westburg for anyway lol.
Donovan for Luis Castillo. Mariners take the money saved and spend it for a run at Ohtani or help somewhere else.
Mariners need infielders. Cardinals don’t they need to trade one.
Westburg for Miller. I like that deal.
Trading both Westburg and Cowser would sting really badly, but any deal for a young TOR SP with 4 years of control is going to sting so I think I would do that deal as long as the other piece or pieces aren’t too crazy.
Says the guy who has been obsessing over trading Jordan Montgomery for Cowser (no thanks lol) in every Orioles-related article’s comments for weeks.
Yeah that deal makes sense for the Orioles for sure. I wonder if that’s enough for the Mariners but it’s at least close.
The Cardinals could use Fabian. I would do Hicks for Fabian Cardinals have poor cennterfield outfield depth right now Orioles have a lot.
I said Goldschmidt too you goofball. Last years MVP. You heard of him???
There is an article on MLB.com right now that talks about teams going all in.
It’s funny it’s a lot of the stuff we are talking about here check it out.
You only started adding Goldschmidt after a number of people, myself included, laughed at your previous Montgomery-for-Cowser+ proposals from a week or two ago.
Proven young MLB talent, not unproven guys who can’t displace Adam Frazier in their own organization.
There is this guy called Elly de la Cruz and Oneil Cruz who would like a word with you.
If we were to make a run at Gilbert (who I don’t think is available at all)
It’d definitely cost us Cowser + Westy/Ortiz/Norby + Basallo
It’d sting a lot. 4 years of control is expensive for an established young pitcher like him. To convince the M’s to move him—I’d have to imagine the package would be that heavy. If it was Norby/Cowser/Basallo—I’d consider saying yes. I think Westburg is the best of the bunch. We don’t need Cowser in CF as long as Mullins is here. Norby is completely blocked and Basallo is a few years off.
Mike Elias has shown a strong desire for guys to spend a decent amount of time getting reps at AAA before promoting them to the big league club, and Frazier has been worth 1.3 rWAR thus far in 2023 and has already set a new career high in HRs before August 1st, so it’s not exactly like he’s stinking up the joint, plus he’s one of the highest paid guys on the roster.
This trade proposal is worse than what “King of Cards” keeps proposing. (And that’s saying something) The M’s won’t let their lack of past success interrupt what they’re building just because other teams want to rip us off. If Castillo, Kirby, & Gilbert are only good because they play in a “pitchers park”, they why are so many people wanting them for their teams? Some of you just refuse to acknowledge they they are, and rightfully so, EXPENSIVE. Don’t want to/ or don’t have the players to offer what it would take? Then stop offers ridiculous trade proposals. Go find other young controllable pitching to lowball.
I have a feeling the Mariners won’t do squat at the deadline.
You good with that?
I don’t think the Mariners will do anything at the deadline either, and yes, I’m good with that. This is only the beginning of our contending years, and there is no need to panic and do something right now. It’s basically the same team they had last year that made the playoffs. As it already stands, they have a +32 run differential and have allowed the fewest runs in the AL West… Less than the Rangers, Astros, and Angels and also 6th lowest in all of baseball.
Make a run for Ohtani this off-season, and then fill out the roster after you know if you get him or not. If you do (and maybe even still), trade Gilbert to get pieces to fill out the holes in the roster at 2B and RF. In 2024, both Miller and Woo should be able to be extended more in terms of innings limits as well.
The Mariners have the roster to compete, but just need a couple of guys to step up and get some experience. They don’t need to do anything drastic at all. Worst case, they come back with a healthy Kelenic and Ray next year. They only lose Wong and Teoscar after this year, and both can very easily be replaced this off-season. Most teams would envy their starting pitching, and that is all back with even more experience next year, so it should only get better as it has been already each year.
That’d be a HUGE overpay by the Mariners!
Lol, why not demand Julio Rodriguez too while you’re plundering them?
You can think that’s fair all you want, doesn’t mean Seattle has to agree. And since you’re the one wanting the pitching, you’re the one that has to pay the freight. Seattle isn’t going to be sad about not trading away really good high quality controllable SP. Yeah, that never turns out well.
Amazing how many biased mariners fans have come out from hiding. Where have y’all been for the past decade? Fair weather fans at their best. Unbelievable
Maybe if this site gave equal run on their dtories the Mariners would have more to comment about than we do normally. I guess we should talk more suring the 10 posts on the Cubs doing the deadline hokie-pokie because they beat up on bottom feeders for two weeks?
Hey with your great pitching the Mariners are still only a 500 team. Why is that? You don’t have offense.
And the Cardinals have terrible pitching and good hitters….what is the Cardinals record? Again pitching is far more valuable…look at the Angels 2 great future hall of famers that are great at hitting. But again pitching is more valuable.
Good players are valuable. Having a well rounded team is valuable. The teams have the opposite problem that’s why I keep suggesting trades with each other.
Why would you think pitching is more valuable just because it’s pitching???
We have the 12th best run differential in the MLB, we also have out scored 4 playoff spot holding teams and are close on a number of others. At the end of the season, we’ll be just fine. We are a team of second half performers (Rodriguez, Raleigh, Suarez, Kelenic, Hernandez, etc.) Over the last month we’ve been one of the best hitting teams in the league. We’re yet to put it all together lile teams do for a stretch every deason. Expect the Mariners to win 35-40 more games down the stretch easy.
I don’t forsee Gilbert being dealt. And I hope we don’t do it for anything less than an all-star caliber bat (out defense is good enough that I don’t care about acquiring someone with D– needs to be a big bat).
If the Cardinals add Arenado it’s a fair deal.
Hell to the naw uuh uhh awwww. Nootbar is insanely overrated and Donovan is a contact hitter. There really isn’t much power or speed for the future. He has prolly peaked on that. Dipoto won’t move HARDLY any of these guys. He isn’t stupid. Of all I could see TEO gone cuz he doesn’t play good defense. Marlowe can fill his spot anyways right now. No way they move their SP’s but I can see TEO & sewald going to cubbies if North side sells come MON.
For bellinger
No chance STL trades Nootbaar. It would take someone like Lindor or Jose Ramirez to get him. Those each of their contracts because their locked up. The return for Noothaar would need to be a player like those two. And still it might need more
No way. Donovan is overrated. The Mariners already swing-and-miss too much or slap-hit like women’s softball hitters. Donovan and Nootbaar are more of the latter. Sewald makes no sense with only a year of control and that would be a massive overpay without Kelenic who is going nowhere. I wouldn’t trade Kelenic straight up for Nootbaar and Donovan gets you maybe 1/3 of Gilbert. I really don’t like any of the Cards prospects too much.
Gorman is good, but his high strikeouts bother me. Walker seems like he’s going to settle into being just good, but not great with limited defensive versatility. I know they are young and can outgrow some of these things, but you don’t trade guaranteed top end starters for flawed options. If I’m taking anything less than a relatively flawless prospect with success at the MLB level, I’m paying 80 cents on the dollar to give up a frontline controllable starter.
More like 1B/3B Gorman, 2B Donovan, C Herrera, OF Carlson, and SP Montgomery for SP Gilbert, 1B/DH France, OF DeLoach, and RP Campbell. Looking at this deal on BTV.com, this looks like an overpay, but I think Gilbert is worth as much as Kirby. Donovan (position) and Gorman (ability) are defensively limited and are probably worth about 75% of their stated value. France is similar to Gorman defensively, while making more contact at the expense of power. He can play 1B, DH or even fake it at 2B or 3B from time to time.
Before everyone starts freaking out this hypothetical trade nets the Mariners a #3 starter for 2 months, a backup catcher who might start for a couple of seasons of his control, a 4th outfielder, and two slightly above-average bats who have had the luxury of compiling their stats ina weaker division of the weaker league in the majors and that have huge defensive questions.
You’re not getting Gilbert for Nootbaar AND Donavan. You’re senile if you think you’re getting Sewald and Kelenic too. MAYBE Donavan and Walker would get you Gilbert and Kelenic. But you’re smoking crack if you think Noot and Donavan get you those three.
BTV says an accepted trade would be:
Mariners get: Jonathan India and CES
Reds get: Bryce Miller and Paul Sewald
I kinda like that deal for both teams
I’d be curious how the simular reacts if it were Woo + Hancock instead of Miller in that trade. I’d be content with that, I think, but mostly because I think CES will end up being a 120 wRC+ guy. Not the biggest India fan.
Boo, stop with this India garbage, we don’t want or need him.
What is BTV
The worst enabler for armchair GMs.
If there was one guy I was ever wrong about, its Paul Sewald. I used to think he was a batting practice pitcher. He’d never get anyone out, amd threw fast balls right down the middle. Every now and again he’d experiment, for instance, throwing side arm. My last memory of him as a Met was in 2020, someone hit a homer in batting practice, and he went into the stands, grabbed it, held it up like it was his crowning achievement as a MLB player, and then threw it back onto the field. Its obvious that Sewald completely changed how he pitches. Whoever fixed him up is amazing. While I know Sewald returned to Citi Field as a Mariner, and out of spite he tried to taunt the fans, I still wish him good luck on his next team. Never thought he’d amount to anything
Those K/BB ratios are really exciting.
Man….we all love Paulie but this would seriously be the ideal time to sell high on him. I don’t think he’s going to get any better than he has been last couple years/this year.
Contenders need good relievers. Pretenders don’t.
What are the Mariners?
I don’t have the answer to that.
While I sense that you are attempting to bait me into some sort of debate; I think the correct answer to your question is not black or white, but somewhere in the middle.
They are contenders in that they have the opportunity to go on a couple of hot streaks over the second half and sneak into the wild card, and probably not make the World Series, if even the ALCS (which is why they are ultimately pretenders as well as playoff contenders).
The spine of a great team is there, but any baseball person will tell you this team is just missing that certain “x” factor; whether that’s a big bat to be acquired down the line or not, Jerry has made it clear it ain’t tradingFUTURE for a rental to win this year. And I’m thankful for that.
I think we could trade Paul and ban daid it up enough to replace his presence this year, or at least come close. And maybe score a nice little prospect in selling Paulie high.
I was seriously asking. I don’t know.
I’m not sure the Mariners themselves know at this point.
I agree, wayneroo. Without knowing what’s really happening behind the scenes, as an avid Jerry show listener on 710; it feels like he’s on the fence and giving vanilla answers to hoard off questions. And with the “report” from Rosenthal today calling the M’s a deadline team to watch; feels like there’s a bit of a trade ticking time bomb in the front office and we’re waiting to see if it goes off or if it’s a dud.
Somewhere between. In any case this is a deep bullpen and Munoz can close games. The thing that scares me is Brash in more high leverage situations if they trade Sewald. I think they should trade Sewald no matter what though.
Let’s go with your implication that the Mariners are “pretenders” for argument’s sake (even though we’re 4 GB or whatever).
Contenders need relievers, yes.
Pretenders do in fact need relievers.
The teams that don’t need relievers are rebuilding teams.
No matter which way you slice it, pretenders are trying to compete. And if a pretender is just 4 GB of a playoff spot, they need to have a competent bullpen if they’re going to go on a run and potentially make the playoffs. Pretenders also need controllable relievers so they can try to compete the following season, and Sewald is under contract for next season. He shouldn’t be dealt just to be dealt; he should be dealt if someone will part with some talent for him.
In the last 30 days, they’ve won 2-of-3 against the Rays, Giants, and Blue Jays, 4-of-7 vs the Twins, 3-of-4 against the Astros, and 1 win from taking 2-of-3 or better from the D-backs. So fair to great!
There’s already the next Sewald on the team in Munoz. There’s already the next Munoz in the system in Prelander Berroa. Sewald is expendable to the Mariners.
No, he’s not expendable. The M’s need to compete. It was 20 damn years and we aren’t waiting another 20 by playing the in between game. No one should trade their most consistent reliever for the sake of trading him, but especially the M’s when we have guys like Saucedo at the back of the pen. Sewald will help the M’s win in 2023 and 2024. You only trade him if you’re blown away.
I’d friggin’ love for the Orioles to snag Gilbert. Maybe for a package built around Colton Cowser and Joey Ortiz?
It would kind of be Seattle’s chance to get revenge for the Erik Bedard trade lol.
The Adam Jones trade, as O’s fans like to call it
*the Adam Jones and Chris Tillman trade 😉
This is the only offer I’ve seen for Gilbert that actually seems fair. I’d want Mayo instead of Ortiz in that package, though, personally.
It would be REALLY difficult to trade both of those guys, especially in the same deal, but Gilbert is such a stud and such a perfect fit for what the Orioles need most right now for this competitive window that is finally open that I would be pretty tempted to do it.
Cowser and Mayo?
Doesn’t sound like something a Mariners fan would want to do. And I like Cowser a lot.
I’m a Mariners fan so I guess there is at least one of us interested by that offer. It would take more than Cowser and Mayo, IMO, but that’s the start of a package I would actually be interested in. That said, I don’t want to move Gilbert unless completely blown away. Woo is really our only controllable SP I would be content with moving.
Are you crazy? It would be more like Gilbert, Hernandez, and Suarez for Henderson, Santander, Means, and Hall.
I think that’s highly unrealistic, personally. If Gilbert is traded it almost certainly won’t be with another piece, let alone two. Something like Cowser, Mayo, Norby, and Wagner for Gilbert sounds like something Dipoto would consider, or at minimum is a better offer than the one the Cardinals fan suggested. I don’t think I’d do it, but it’s at least realistic.
I don’t think the Orioles would actually want to give up Cowser, but I think it’s close.
The one that I’d like is Gilbert for Kjerstad, Ortiz, and Mayo. All are crushing in AAA, and fill the Mariners’ needs for 2023. The Orioles get Gilbert for 5 playoff runs, and the Mariners get a 3B for the future in Mayo who could take over for Geno next year, a 2B to replace Wong in Ortiz, and a corner outfielder to go with Kelenic and JRod in Kjerstad. Orioles also get to keep their infield of the future together of Westburg, Henderson, Holliday, and Mountcastle while also keeping Cowser.
I’m not fully opposed to adding a reliever to deal either, though I think that’s close enough as it is.
I don’t think I’d even consider trading Gilbert if Cowser isn’t involved, personally.
You wouldn’t trade Gilbert if Cowser wasn’t involved? No way, if they offer Kjerstad, Ortiz, and Mayo, I’m taking that deal.
Cowser is good, but so are the others.
– Kjerstad is hitting .330 at AAA right now and would fill in immediately with Kelenic and JRod
– Ortiz is 25 and could immediately take over at 2B on our roster. Impossible for him to be worse than Wong, and he should only get better
– Mayo is playing at AAA right now and should be ready to take over at 3B for Geno come late 2024 or 2025.
That would fill our 3 biggest holes while keeping a rotation of Castillo, Kirby, Ray, Miller, and Woo.
I would love for the Braves to get this guy but I’m not sure they have the expendable bats. Grissom would be the closet as far as being an MLB ready bat but his defense at SS isn’t.
I’m kinda ok with passing on trading, still opportunities should be available with keeping an eye the season, and next year as well. One more bat could get you in the playoff’s small investment for big returns.
I trust that Jerry is doing the right thing and waiting to be bowled over, these other teams need the controllable pitching more than we have to get rid of it. Orioles Cardinals and Reds all have the multiple controllable hitters that it would take to get things done though. Now that competing this year is getting more realistic, let’s keep Paul. Can still deal him in the offseason
Not alot of teams out there making quality low cost starting pitching with multiple years of control available. Look at Miami, they got a batting champion for 2 years of Lopez. Now they’re feeling the pinch of needing more starters and same with the Rays, they’re the best team to pump out young starters but have hit the injury bug themselves. Seattle isn’t going to trade their starters unless they’re blown away because teams need pitching if they want to contend. Since Seattle has alot of pitching other teams will line up to overpay and there’s always a team desperate enough to overpay. Seattle has done it before (Bedard) when only getting 2 years of control. Seattle also paid heavily for Castillo and his 1 year and 2 months before extending. People thinking that the Mariners need to trade any of these pitchers is simply wrong. Most teams are in position that they need pitching. If the offer isn’t blowing Dipoto away I’m sure he just says have a nice day.
Marlins don’t need more starters they need healthy starters
Tampa again Baz, Springs and Rasmussen hurt.
Sure if Seattle loses someone else besides Ray to injury they would be covered. But if they don’t it’s a bit of a waste. And that offense isn’t good enough.
It’s good enough to be in striking distance to “possibly” make the playoff. They don’t need to sell off controllable pitching unless they’re getting blown away.
Cardinals are not in a great position if they plan to contend next year. They need cheap controllable starters that are quality. Those don’t come around often and teams will overpay for pitching….not hitting
Nobody overpays for pitching stop saying that it’s annoying and dumb.
I suggest trades that the simulator agrees with and make sense to me. You are delusional.
The Cardinals have trades to make but I doubt with the Mariners. Perhaps a team like Texas thats more of a legit contender.
Going on and on about who is and isn’t a contender when your team is playing .438 ball is a pretty bad look.
Well at least my team knows what they are. Mariners kinda feel like they might be decent but talking about selling?
I don’t get it. 1 playoff appearance in 20 years seems like Mariners fans would want more. Cardinal fans get a little entitled at least nobody will accuse you of that.
Well if it makes sense to you than I guess we should all fall in line!
Back-to-back 90 win seasons and a core of players you could only wish to have in STL. We have literally not lost a series against a current playoff spot holding team ina month. Aorry we didn’t turn it on for you whennyou wanted it to happen, but we’re playing consistently good baseball amd finding a way to win nearly every day.
I would take the Cardinals core of players over the Mariners any day.
You obviously don’t look at the trades that have top pitching or quality pitching with multiple years of control in them. They tend to be the bigger trades that happen in baseball.
Again man if that’s the GM in Seattle’s attitude there are other teams to trade with. The Cardinals basically have 1 good infielder to trade they will get something nice for him. And a good young ready to play catcher which lots of teams want and not many have. Right now neither the Mariners or Cardinals are legit contenders. At least this is new for my team.
Angels paid a pretty penny for giolito and Lopez which are pure rentals
And they got better. That’s what contending teams do.
How are you not making this connection though? The point is they paid A LOT. For a #3 SP.
The Cardinals have rental pitchers similar to Giolito. Not the Mariners the Cardinals.
How are YOU not making that connection?
That’s not the point tridenthope (a Mariners fan) is making. So are you admitting the point you’re trying to make is irrelevant to their comment?
The comment is Giolito and Lopez brought back a pretty penny.
The Cardinals are the ones who have rental starters and relievers available for trade NOT THE MARINERS!!!!
So what are you talking about????
Just making the point that pitching isn’t cheap. And pitchers with multiple years and good track records are going to cost a team a massive haul
Hitters with multiple years of control and good track records cost massive hauls too. It’s not unique to pitching like you keep implying.
What’s the saying? “Pitching wins championships.” Your right, great hitters will cost a bunch to aquire but Cardinals have good hitters not great ones available.
Well I guess you guys are on your way to a championship then.
It would be the first in franchise history correct?
Possibly, plenty of options out there
See. You just don’t want to admit anywhere in this entire thread that you’re wrong about something. Like I said, it wasn’t the point he was making and what do you know?! It wasn’t the point he was making. Instead of admitting you’re wrong, you deflect and talk about the M’s never winning a championship, which I think bothers most fans a lot less than you think since you haven’t successfully angered anyone with it and instead have repeatedly been upset yourself (which I’m sure you’ll try to deny but none of us will believe, lol)
What point was he making? Be specific.
The Cardinals are the ones with rental starters to trade NOT THE MARINERS!!!
I agree, the Mariners have been terrible for 20 years. But doesn’t change that most teams are looking for pitching and not alot of teams willing to trade it
As it stands, Seattle has 3 starters in the top 30 per fWAR, and it’s not easy to get yourself into that position. Just assuming that the next wave of Miller, Woo, and Hancock will replicate that success is foolish. I don’t think Castillo, Kirby, or Gilbert should be available.
Dealing from that group of younger, less proven pitchers, though, is definitely a viable strategy for adding some offense to the mix.
I like Miller but I don’t know what makes sense for him. Edman is from the West Coast and plays an excellent 2b but he’s probably best at shortstop. He’s also having a down year so I think the Cardinals will hold onto him. Gorman ain’t really available. Arenado I am actually OK trading but that’s probably only to the Dodgers. Donovan is the guy that makes sense I think but he’s really good too. He stole home twice recently in 2 games. He’s a really good player I don’t think you Mariners fans understand that
Honestly I think Gorman is what Seattle would ask for and likely an outfielder like Carlson. Honestly if a pitcher is going to be traded it’ll be Miller or Woo not Gilbert
My problem with both Edman and Donovan is that they seem like the kind of hitter who comes to T-Mobile to die. The ball hangs up in our park, and since they moved the fences in a decade or so ago, singles are not easy to come by. I’ve seen it too many times where that kind of player comes to town, gets crushed by the hitting environment in April, loses confidence, and has their season (and maybe career) go into a tailspin from there. Kolten Wong is this year’s version of that story.
And just generally, the Mariners should be targeting someone with more club control and power potential, on a team that has a surplus of those kinds of players to mirror our surplus of young pitchers. I think the Orioles are the natural match here, not the Cards.
You saying the Mariners ballpark is better for home run hitters?
Or maybe it’s just a tough place to hit all around and that’s why your pitching looks so great and the offense doesn’t.
I thought it was the second one.
Home run hitters crack the park much more easily than line drive/on base types. We really haven’t had a player have sustained success hitting that way since Ichiro. JP Crawford’s had some success that way, but it hasn’t been consistent.
The park helps our pitching, but if it was just the park we’d be doing this every year. The real thing helping our staff is an emphasis on K/BB rates. Kirby, Gilbert, Castillo are 1, 8, and 12 among qualified starters in the league in that stat, respectively. Miller and Woo have done pretty well for themselves in that department as well. Really, our organization is just good at developing pitchers, which is why we’re able to cobble together a quality bullpen out of the league’s cast-offs every year, Sewald included.
Well you need on base type hitters one way or another. Donovan and Edman are on base guys. Gorman is a home run hitter.
Edman’s career OBP is .319, which is not good and only six points better than Gorman’s. His offense would crater in Seattle and it would probably ruin his career. Donovan would probably fare better here, given his ability to take the walk, but again, I just don’t see a match with the Cards.
I would prefer Donovan with his bb/k rate.
Donovan is a really good player. These Mariner fans want to make up excuse after excuse to why he’s not or why their pitching is so great. Watch Donovan play. He plays like Pete Rose he hustles all the time he takes great at bats. He can play different positions he won a freaking gold glove last year.
I try to have a decent conversation but this was really a waste of time. My team will be making trades here soon. We have an extra infielder someone will want him.
They already are duplicating it. Miller and Woo are literally following the Gilbert and Kirby playbook of don’t give up walks, ride the fastball and slowly devrlop your secondaries. Gilbert and Kirby were almost all fastball pitchers their first season. We are becoming a pitching factory. Also consider the time of the call ups and you’ll see Miller is pacing for Top 30 also, just missed the first month or so.
Dude the Mariners play in a pitchers park. That’s why the pitchers look great and the offense doesn’t. Just like the Marlins. You acknowledge the pitching but ignore the offense.
Biased fans are irritating.
So the pitching is good at home but below average on the road? And the stats say that? Or just you hoping it does to justify the cost of a potential trade?
“The price to acquire any of those arms would surely be steep; not only would the Mariners be seeking a controllable bat to plug into the lineup — they’d likely be seeking a high-end, all-around contributor.”
I do not care what trade simulator youre using to justify that trade. It will not be enough. The quote above should be simplified. You are going to overpay if you want Gilbert or any of our young pitching… But Sewald is available! Kthxbye!
Gorman or Donovan would be a must, if not both of them. I’d let them choose a pitcher whos not Castillo or Kirby for Donovan or Gorman + Goldschmidt and taking Ty France back as your B- Goldy replacement
Oh and one last thing… Mariners are dealing from a position of strength. Cardinals arent the only ones that need starting pitching… There is a reason Ken Rosenthal said as much. Also, there is an article floating out there that the Mariners are the key to this Hot Stove season. Just saying that because… Well, they have what everyone wants.
Their not Teams like maybe Cubs,Padres and so on who haven’t decide yet to be Sellers or if like Cease or some how at last minute Ohtani comes available.
Trade Miller, Gabe Speier, Tyler Locklear and Harry Ford to the Rays for Arozarena and Vidal Brujan and arm prospect Ian Seymour. Rays get a young arm for their rotation and a bullpen arm in Speier. along wiht the futuure catcher they don’t have. and a corner IF’er prospect.
Marineners finally get the big bat with three years of control in All-Star Aroz along with a young bat MiIF’er in Brujan and Seymour (coming back from TJS).
If the Mariners want to save some money to go after Othani, they could throw Teo Hernandez into the deal, saving them having to have him take a QO offer of 20 million for next year. Rays would also get a replacement bat for LF for their push this season and not worry about a QO for hernandez next year.
Too busy.
How come I feel like this trade proposal is an oversell for Arozarena? Again, the Mariners do not need to give up so much. So why would they? It feels like anyone that wants pitching either doesnt know the value of starting pitching or feels like the Mariners need to over pay for a premium bat. They dont. They can play the rest of the season out because they have 4 stud pitchers! But lets throw in Harry Ford and the rest of the propsect group for Arozarena? Come on man. If a team wants Gilbert they are going to have to start with Arozarena and then add more players to that mix.
Speculate all you want all I know is Seattle is in a good spot to get whatever they want. Most teams would prefer control players, I would expect something resembling trades going in both directions in this manner. So I’d be surprised if anything other than a modest exchange happening.
Wait and see. I bet you Mariners fans are going to be disappointed because you don’t seem to be realistic.
Have any of you made a legit trade proposal? I got a lot of criticism for mine. Where is yours????
Pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball and the M’s have a plethora of young arms that are talented and contract controllable for the next five years, I am as angry as any mariner fan that the answer to the offensive woes for this season was T. Hernandez, Wong, Pollack, and LaStella and bummed that the franchise did not take advantage of the fact that they had this city in the palms of their hands and so excited about them this year after their run in 2022…..The moves were cheap and hopeful. But this team is still very young and talented. DO NOT in any way move Gilbert, Kirby, Miller, or Woo to get a bat now. What bat would that be? J. INdia? Come-on, not a difference maker. A rental? Play this season out for the most part with what you have, unless you can get a bat for less, and hope that J Rod, T,Hernandez, Cal R, Ty France and company start hitting like they can and should….Julio and Cal seem like they are getting there, Join them Ty and Teoscar and then get two major bats in the off season and take on some offensive salary….Just don’t trade our future because you made poor choices leading into it.
Pitchers parks make pitchers look good and hitters look bad.
Write that down
Sea Mariners pitchers pitch equally as well on the road as they do at home. Mariners hitters hit equally poorly home and away as well….
I don’t think that’s true Big Red.
You don’t think so…..wow
Sure, then check their splits? Home and away and tell me that Gilbert isnt above the rest of the league. Then, make that statement again. We are being bullish about this trade because we dont want to give up Gilbert. Hence the reason we keep saying we would rather see how the season plays out, rather than give him up. He has a very bright future and only has begun to start using his secondary pitches effectively. Why would you trade away something like that if you couldnt get a haul for him? Hence the reason for the statement above. The Mariners are essentially telling other teams that will have to overpay to get him, but if your interested in Sewald… Lets talk. Dont know why you seem so hellbent that your trade offer is a good one… Demand and the fact the Mariners dont want to give him up are the reasons. So if you keep that in mind and try again. I guarantee that we wouldnt give him up for less than 3 players and premium ones at that.
My team knows moves have to be made and won’t be standing pat.
If the Mariners think they are fine as is great. Plenty of other teams to trade with. Teams that value winning.
Exactly, and the Mariners knows the same. Here is what I will say… Cards do not need him as much as other teams do. They know that other teams are making a push for the post season. Your team isnt. So, the smart move is to stand pat until something blows them away. If your team has showed them what they want to see then cool lets make that trade. If not, hold on to it and see what happens in the offseason. The move has to make sense for both teams and I think right now I would be willing to wait to see what happens. 3 days left and Mariners may not do anything at all. They put themselves in this position. Now they need to make sure they dont do something stupid! Im scared that they will.
My ideas involving Mariners trades are really more for the offseaon not now. I see why you would assume that but yeah I see them as a good fit for an offseason trade.
Totally agree, they shouldn’t trade their pitching because they did a terrible job filling the holes on offense because they where cheap. The team offense is starting to play better. Stand pat and maybe do a small deal for an outfielder of rental 2nd base. Off-season will be ohtani talk, see what ownership does with the pocketbook.
Always next year
1 playoff appearance in the last 2 decades.
Always next year……
Fair statement, but lets say this. Cards wouldnt do this move if it were them. Know why? Because they are smart. Granted the Mariners put themselves in this position. I doubt the Cards would. That said, we cant afford to be over reactive in this position. Better when you have more pieces in place. Which is what the Cards would do.
The Caridnals have made many mistakes holding onto talent too long when the talent had no place to play.
The Cardinals have also made many mistakes trading the wrong guys.
The one thing the Cardinals do really well is developing the talent. That’s what they are great at.
Would u guys trade kirby for gleybe torres?
Nope
No!
Trading Gilbert because Robbie Ray might be back next year – connecting those two things in any way, is insanity. And expecting Hancock to replace him? The Mariners have done well with Gilbert, Kirby, Miller, and Woo. But you can’t expect every good prospect to turn out like that.
I know people talk about trades because trades are fun to talk about, but I hope the decision-makers aren’t talking about these trades.
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but the odds of Seattle trading Castillo, Gilbert, Kirby, Julio, JP, or Cal, are slim to none.–and closer to ‘none’. That is their core.
Woo isn’t likely a targeted player because he won’t likely be available for postseason play. Seattle’s pushing it a bit already and plan to get him extra rest just to get through the season. This is his first full year back from TJS.
Never say never, but if Seattle trades from it’s rotation, it’s more likely to be Miller, and given that they have all the leverage, it would be surprising to see a lateral move. Those are more likely to happen in the offseason. So, you can probably forget India. Cincinnati probably isn’t really interested in moving him anyway.
Enjoy your Saturday.
My thoughts on what Seattle should try:
San Diego
Snell(from Seattle)(rental, but try to sign extension)
Hader (rental)
Soto(1+ years)
for
Seattle
Sewald(1+ years)
Gilbert (4 years)
Kelenic(3years)
Hancock(prospect)
Maybe another prospect of 2 on our end. We need left-handed pitching and this solves it. We also get a much needed bat in the middle.
No chance the Mariners do that deal. They aren’t a playoff team this year, so they could easily just sign Snell this off-season. There is just way too much control from Seattle’s side of that to do that deal, and that’s control of MLB talent.
Trade with the Padres
Seattle will likely trade for a prospect like Aaron Schunk and cross fingers he hits at the major leagues. He couldn’t be worse than Wong
One starter for Soto
That would be worth it in my opinion. A young talented hitter that fits into their needs now and in the future. An outfield of Soto, Rodriguez, and Kelenic. Wow. I just don’t want to see a really good young pitcher like Gilbert be traded for J. India, etc. But for Juan Soto? Need to. The M’s should take on that salary and maybe the Padres need to dump a little salary? Maybe they want Ohtani as well? All a pipe dream but I need to dream about an offensive line-up for the Mariners that is better….
The only movement the Mariners make, if anything, is Sewald. Not sure if we see anything in the next 24hrs but you never know. I just dont want desperation to be the reason why they do something. Oh and Soto for Gilbert? No thanks! I will gladly keep Gilbert. Honestly, I would prefer Ketel Marte over Soto. Just my opinion, but I also dont want to give up Gilbert. Maybe, Woo for Marte but nothing more.
No chance Gilbert is moved for any of those guys. Are you kidding? A young top-of- the-rotation stud is rarely available. Especially for the run of the mill guys listed here.