The Cardinals expect to reinstate Tyler O’Neill from the injured list Thursday, and in doing so, they’ll push Dylan Carlson out of a starting job and back into a reserve role. With O’Neill occupying left field, the Cards will continue to deploy Lars Nootbaar in center field and Jordan Walker in right field. MLB.com’s John Denton writes that manager Oli Marmol has already informed Carlson of the decision.
“At the end of the day, we’ll find appropriate at-bats for guys, but this is where we’re at and there’s no way around it,” Marmol said of the decision to push Carlson into a reserve role. “Certain guys need to play the outfield … and [O’Neill] is going to play.”
Were it just a matter of finding playing time for this quartet, it might be easier to get each player regular at-bats. However, the Cards also have first baseman/outfielder Alec Burleson to consider, as well as super-utility standouts Brendan Donovan and (when healthy) Tommy Edman. Slugger Nolan Gorman also fits into the mix at designated hitter and at second base.
It’s a large number of talented position players for Marmol to accommodate with playing time. For now, Carlson has been squeezed out of a regular role on the club, and the question becomes one of whether he’ll be squeezed off the roster entirely.
MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand reported earlier in the week that the Yankees had expressed interest in Carlson, and Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported similarly yesterday. Other clubs figure to be involved on the switch-hitting 24-year-old, given his former prospect pedigree and remaining three seasons of club control beyond the current campaign.
Because of that club control, the Cardinals don’t necessarily need to feel any urgency to make a deal. But the Cards are also in dire need of starting pitching that’s controlled beyond the current season. Miles Mikolas, Steven Matz, Matthew Liberatore, Dakota Hudson and Jake Woodford are their only rotation options with any real big league experience who are signed/controlled beyond the 2023 season. All other than Mikolas have struggled.
It’s at least possible the Cardinals could consider other trades to address the rotation needs and alleviate some of the position player logjam. However, St. Louis was staunchly against trading both Nootbaar and Donovan this past offseason, and Goold reported recently that Nootbaar remains unlikely to be available. The Athletic’s Katie Woo wrote this morning that Nootbaar is viewed by the front office as a “key member of their core.” Donovan, last year’s third-place Rookie of the Year finisher, and Walker, who entered the season regarded as one of baseball’s top 10 prospects, are surely viewed in similar fashion.
There’s certainly an argument that it’s in the Cardinals’ interest to trade O’Neill instead, but he’s hitting just .228/.303/.380 in 482 plate appearances dating back to last season. He’s far less likely to command a quality return than Carlson would, given those struggles and his shorter window of team control (through the 2024 season). They’d also be selling low on a player who hit .286/.352/.560 and popped 34 home runs as recently as 2021.
All of those factors contribute to the mounting rumblings of a possible Carlson trade. That said, it’s still somewhat remarkable that things have reached this point. It was only a couple years ago that Carlson was the Cardinals’ equivalent of present-day Walker — a former first-round pick who entered the season ranked among the sport’s top 10 to 15 prospects. He didn’t hit the ground running in his 2020 debut, but that came as a 21-year-old during the Covid-shortened season when Carlson didn’t have the opportunity to play minor league games in a competitive setting.
In Carlson’s first full season, 2021, he turned in a .266/.343/.437 batting line with 18 home runs. Defensive grades on him were rough, but it was a promising step for the 22-year-old nonetheless. His offensive production has diminished since that time, but Carlson’s defensive prowess has been on display as he’s posted quality marks across all three outfield spots. In total, he’s a .250/.333/.405 switch-hitter with plus defense dating back to 2021 — and he has three-plus years of remaining team control.
It’s rare for such players to even be available on the trade market, but the Cardinals have a knack for developing quality position players. They also have a tendency to play the hot hand with those players, one that spans nearly a decade; they’ve been going through similar hot-potato scenarios as far back as 2014 (Jon Jay, Peter Bourjos, Randal Grichuk, Tommy Pham, etc.).
On the one hand, it’s a testament to the team’s player development staff. On the other, the frequent stop-and-start approach to playing time has arguably contributed to the glut of quality bats (outfielders, in particular) that St. Louis has traded away over the years.
Carlson, for his part, acknowledged to Denton that news of his reduced role was “tough” to take; he views himself as an everyday player and emphasized that the competitor in him wants to be out there as often as possible. He didn’t outwardly call for a trade, but there’s little doubt he’s keenly aware it’s a possibility and perhaps a path to the regular role he desires.
Time will tell whether a trade of Carlson actually comes to fruition, but his blend of youth, team control, defensive excellence and still-present offensive upside will make him widely appealing. At some point — whether it’s Carlson, O’Neill, Burleson or someone else — it seems like the Cardinals will be in position to deal from their deep stock of controllable position players to address their need for pitching help.
This years Dave Dombrowski prospect-for-outfielder trade should be Mick Abel for Dylan Carlson
agreed Carlson would slot in nicely in Philly
I don’t believe the Cards have any MLB ready outfield depth in the minors. Carlson, Nootbar, and O’Neil are injury prone. So once they trade Dejong, and any outfielder gets hurt, there is a problem. Walker, Burleson, Edman, Donovan, Yepez… none of them are actually outfielders.
Nootbaar isn’t really injury prone.
Edman plays very good OF defense and suffers from a MI logjam of his own even if DeJong is traded, so he provides excellent depth out there.
Walker is playing in the outfield for now whether you like it or not. His bat at least makes up for his bad defense, and he might still improve his defense out there.
Actually we do crazy, crazy you haven’t looked at the 40 man roster Yepez and Gomez are on it as well. Love how some just post nonsense and literally have no clue when posting.
Sounds like some garbage out in Cleveland radio.
Yepez was mentioned as someone who’s not really an outfielder, which isn’t far from the truth.
Gomez, yes.
Yepez is pinch hitter and Gomez is yet another 4A outfielder which they already have a glut of on the 25 man roster. They should trade them all away and try again.
I think Yepez is more than a PH, i think if given regular AB as a DH he would be in the upper half of every day DH players… the issue is that there are 30 DH slots; and maybe 8 teams actually have an every day DH, the rest use it to cycle their corner OF and 1b to semi off days (or other positions, but more often the bat first positions)…. and Yepez cannot play the field at an MLB level at all- and David Ortiz becomes what you need to do with the bat to be a great player with only your bat.
Notes- Baines was only a -19.5 Dwar on his career and played forever, so he really was a minimially passable fielder. Edgar played a very good 3b once upon a time. For current players- he could crack the top 10 DHs by just being better than a Vogelbaugh
What does a Cleveland radio have to do with this article?
Baines DH’ed for about half his career. That minus DWAR looks much worse when you factor the number of games he played in the field.
What 4A outfielders are on the 25-man roster?! They have 2 legitimate full-time starters, a legitimate platoon starter at worst, an excellent offensive rookie who should be a DH but is faking the outfield for now, a good bench outfielder, and a utility man who can play the OF decently (albeit one who can’t currently play defense), as well as another utility man who plays great defense but is currently on the IL. There’s isn’t a single 4A player among them!
You might be able to make the argument with Yepez (and even he is probably too good of an MLB hitter to be considered 4A), but he’s currently in AAA, anyway.
Bailey Falter for Carlson and Nick Dunn
The Guardians flagship station AM 1100 just reported Carlson is on his way to Cleveland for P Xavion Curry.
If reported by WTAM it is confirmed to be true
Doubt.. I don’t think a one for one works. Carlson has more value than a 40 FV pitcher.
Espino or Allen for Carlson is pretty close to the right value.
The algorithm you are using is obsolete. My metrics ( and I’m an ex scout) indicate the Guardians would be giving up about 20 + in value. Curry would slide into the #3 slot in their rotation.
Fangraphs has Curry as a 40 FV guy. MLB Pipeline has him as FV 50 last year. They noted that he is a 2 pitch pitcher at this point and him getting into a rotation would be dependent on him developing a third pitch. Otherwise he is a fastball heavy reliever. Considering how the Guardians are using him, he doesn’t have a third pitch.
Agreed!
Baseball Prospectus: “The Georgia Tech product is short on stature and stuff but long on pitchability, slinging his high spin, low 90’s heater from over the top and mixing in a 12-6 curve and fringy changeup to keep hitters guessing. Although he misses more bats than you’d expect and has good control, he contracted a case of the long balls in Columbus that may prove chronic. Curry will likely earn his paycheck in long relief, but if any team can find a way to leverage him into a bigger role, it’s the Guardians.”
What! No way Cleveland gives up Espino for Carlson. No way.
According to the trade value simulator that you see people using, Carlson has a little more value than Espino. The Guardians are getting next to nothing from their outfielders right now. Kwan has an OPS+ of 100. Carlson is at 97. He’s 10% better than Brennan and 20% better than Straw. You would have him for 3 full seasons. Espino doesn’t really fit our timeline for competing next year, but the value is close because Espino is still in AA (and on IL).
No way Cleveland trades Curry right now. He’s been our ace in the bullpen this year.
Nvm makes sense as to why they’ll trade him. Forgot I was a Cleveland fan
I think I would very much like that trade as a Cardinal fan. If Abel could cut down on his walks he’d be a nasty pitcher
I would take Abel for Carlson. Don’t really want to deal Carlson but yeah that sounds good.
Not even with two loaded guns to D D’s head!!
hey man what are you going to do if they shut cards talk down ?
There is “no chance”, that D D would trade Abel even up for Carlson. There is virtually no chance that Abel is traded at all. With Painter almost certainly needing T J surgery, that makes Abel “untouchable”.
I agree. Just saying I would do it as a Cardinal fan
Carlson no. But Abel’s BB9 rate 5.4 in 2021, 4.2 in 2022, and 5.2 in 2023. He’s still pretty young, but that is something that DD is aware of. And one of DD’s strengths is getting rid of guys one year too early rather than one year too late.
As a RS fan, on the Sale trade, I’d bet that DD looked at Moncada’s 12/1 K/W in 20 PAs in 2016 with the RS and it caused him concern. It was a tiny sample size, but when you are talking about a really valuable asset, you need to be really sure.
Heck no. Carlson is mediocre and Abel has several more years of control left. We also don’t need an OF this badly.
If these guys are so talented, why are they considerably under.500?
because their pitching is terrible
The pitching is terrible, so let’s trade the two best pitchers on the staff.
First, Mikolas and Helsley (albeit the latter is currently on the IL) are both better pitchers than Flaherty.
Second, 2023 is (almost certainly) already a wash, while Montgomery and Flaherty are going to be free agents anyway, hence why they’ll probably be traded.
Because they can’t pitch
They have the most blown saves in the league. Had they converted even half of them they would be in first place in the NL Central.
Yes it’s not just bad pitching it’s untimely pitching.
Walker is a terrible outfielder
If these guys are so talented, why are they considerably under .500?
Maybe non existent pitching? That’s been well established? Use your brain buddy
Ok, get ready for a trade with the Yankees. It should be in the works, now that Hader is hurt again. Cardinal fans surprised?
If Cashman actually trades again for ballplayers who have been hurt, aside from them being .250ish type hitters, Hal should immediately fire him…..the Yankee roster has enough of these type of players and that philosophy and Cashman tendency has got to change
250ish type hitters. Lol
Yes…I thought that was pretty good too…..no amount of modern analytics gets rid of the fleas these dogs have…..
@rocky7- Let’s face it, Cashman is really part of the Steinbrenner family, so he isn’t going anywhere. (He has a life long contract) Regardless if he keeps trading for injured players, he’s basically leaving on his own terms.
Unfortunately, you may be right about Cashman leaving on his own terms regardless……most likely though will be the reality that the WS drought will continue on for just as long……
Hal only looks at the dollars. He is oblivious to anything baseball. I’d bet that he does not even watch the Yankees play. This time of the year Trashman always has press interviews about some blockbuster trade, but eveytime he always comes up and say well the deal was not to our liking. If the Yankees get another player, he must hit under .220 and often injured.
64 Yanks you forgot to add the player must also strike out at least 30% of the time and be right handed.
A .448 team shouldn’t consider anyone untouchable. They should be thanking other GMs for even showing interest.
What an idiotic thing to say
so by this logic, the Angels should be thanking teams for showing interest in Ohtani? got it.
What a buffoon take brought to you by the turd burglar himself slider with cheese. Also cut down on the White Castle maybe when you can afford real food you’d be in touch more with reality.
“Also cut down on the White Castle maybe when you can afford real food you’d be in touch more with reality.”
——-
Way dumber than anything the OP said. Lol.
White Castle = more Slumpbusters
It’s simple math, Mark!
Sliderwitcheese is a well known White Castle addict. I remember him saying if he had a chance to meet with anyone in history that he would share a few White Castle burgers with President Obama. He just loves that place.
WC can be tasty at times. I don’t really get the hate on commoner food. I was just in LV and spend half my food budget in the Panda. Cheap food can still be good.
I thought O’Neil was being activated Tuesday. Why the delay? He was the DH during rehab; never played in the field. I strongly suspect he’s being rushed back for the trade deadline. This will not work out well imo.
He’s not being rushed.
There is something fishy going on. Remember a couple weeks ago it said ONeill was coming back soon? Same day the Cardinals go out and sign that nobody and put him on the 40 man Palacios and transfer ONeill to the 60 day DL.
ONeill has been jerked around so much by the organization nothing surprises me at this point.
That doesn’t explain why he’s coming back without ever having played in the field during his rehab.
He got pushed back so they could have some flexibility in the roster and pitching with the marlins series. It’s almost like some of you don’t read or hear or watch the games where they literally talked about this the last two games for a few minutes
Pretty sure he played in the field during his rehab.
Asdfgh
So why wasn’t he left in AAA to get some playing time if that’s the case?
It’s almost like I’ve seen this play before. It’s almost like you can take anything they say with a grain of salt.
I think it’s as simple as they had a bullpen day on Wednesday and needed the extra pitcher on the staff or as complicated as they have a deal in the works that’ll create a spot on the roster.
Had a bullpen game scheduled on Wednesday. Waited until the next say. Already reported. Wanted an extra pitcher for that game.
How they didn’t see this coming is just head scratching. They have 2 infielders playing outfield (Edman and Walker), despite being loaded with actual outfielders. I have no idea how they went into the year with this rotation and the glut of position players they have without making any moves. Their front office just comes off as scared to me
Tigers need to swing a trade, he is a perfect Scott Harris guy who controls the strike zone and plays multiple positions well. Go get em!
The problem is Walker. The team insisted on forcing him into the rotation and it caused numerous other problems. And Walker sucks that’s the worst part.
You mean the OF?
Only his defense sucks. His bat is well worth playing him out there when the DH spot is otherwise being used (as it is for Donovan right now).
Cardinals have never messed up trading an outfielder before
Carlson for marinaccio
Absolutely not. A reliever (and not a great one at that) has no where near the value of 3+ years of Carlson.
I disagree Marinaccio is a really good reliever, and he is definitely worth Carlson. Stop overhyping Carlson. O’Neill is better.
Carlson has 2 more years of control than O’Neill. He has at least twice the value of O’Neill.
Then why is O’Neill starting over Carlson then? Just curious?
O’Neill has been out for the last month. He needs to show he is healthy to get the best offer. It wouldn’t hurt if he hit a couple home runs too.
The arm they’d likely get for these OFs will be of similar disappointment for their career.
Cards should have never traded Tommy Pham! A player who plays old school and hates to be on the DL.
Pham is a clubhouse cancer he’s hated by every teammate he’s every played with. He’s part of the Mets problem
How would you know Stevie? You been in the clubhouses with him? No you haven’t, son.
Hey hemorrhoids hank, it’s been well documented in the past.
It’s just a fact. Pham is a clubhouse cancer everywhere he goes. Read up. It’s not that hard to find information that supports it.
His Cardinals career started years late becsuse Pham was *always* on the DL.
They know their audience. Being outspoken or even having an opinion doesn’t work there. They should rename the team the St Louis Stepford Wives.
This is true. Short scrappy guys are loved in St Louis. But if you have real talent and don’t get every last bit out of it they will hate you. And yes keep your mouth shut.
People ignore the reasons why the Cardinals moved on from Garcia, Ozuna and Arozarena. It’s because all 3 act like fools. And since all 3 left all 3 have had trouble with the law.
Cardinals don’t want that anywhere near the team right or wrong.
Considering he’s been stabbed twice, I wouldn’t even take him in a knife fight.
Pham is an A hole. Also can’t see.
Hasn’t this same conjecture been posted about five times in the last two weeks?
Yet here you are
Even though the RS have 3 starting outfielders, and a good #4, the fact that Carlson has three full years remaining makes him a very good target imo. I have no idea of how they would fit him in, but this looks like a great buy-low target.
lol. you won’t be “buying low” on Carlson. he’s not Mantle, but he’s far from trash. They’ll keep him before they give him away. Where in this article did you see the Cardinal’s will have to “sell low” on him?
I’ve heard of a Clarke Schmidt for Carlson trade.. If Yankees are looking toward next year. That’ll let them trade Bader for prospects.
The Cardinals would love that.
No team is giving up “prospects” for Bader. Yanks would be lucky to get a pair of lottery tickets for him
Better chance of that happening than the Cardinals getting Schmidt for Carlson.
No playoff bound team would take a flier on bader? He was a playoff performer last fall. He wont fetch top 100 prospects but im sure some low level players.
I like it trade for beeter to
No Beeter, no Gil, no Warren, no Schmidty either for Carlson. Maybe German and Vasquez?
I definitely wouldn’t trade Schmidt for Carlson. Sounds funny after his perfect game, but maybe I’d give the hated Cardinals, German. They’d be lucky to have em’
I’d take Carlson on the Mets , Canha is a free agent at season’s end if he’s not traded by then. Carlson for Matt Allan, Megill or Peterson their choice
Nah you can keep your junk AAA pitchers. Parada or immediate hang up
lol, they wouldn’t trade you Carlson for ALL of those
@jvent- you’re not getting Allan for Carlson. Cardinal fans trying to rip off other clubs! Lol!
They’ve had an excess of outfielders quite a bit in recent years. Nothing new.
No, they haven’t! This season and 2021 are the only recent years they’ve actually had as many as 3 quality outfielders for most of the season.
Cardinals had Lane Thomas, Adolis Garcia and Randy Arozarena starting in AAA at the same time not that long ago, so it would indeed appear they’ve had a glut of OFs in recent years. It’s fair to ask whether the team accurately assessed what it had but the talent surplus was there.
They traded all three of those guys before they could establish themselves in the Majors. They never provided good outfield depth in the Majors at the times the Cardinals had them, except for one September with Arozarena when the rosters were expanded anyway.
The statement was “they’ve had an excess of OFs in recent years.”
If all three were starting in AAA, and all three were dealt away because they were viewed as surplus and all three became legitimate major league starting outfielders, I think it’s fair to say the organization had an excess of OFs in recent years.
You can only use that argument with Arozarena. Neither Garcia nor Thomas were ready for the Majors at the time, and it would in fact take multiple years for them to establish themselves after they were traded.
As for Arozarena, he was only expected to be a bench player at best the next year when he was traded in 2019-20 offseason. As poor as the options were, he was still behind O’Neill (who had great power but wouldn’t break out until 2021), Bader (who was good in 2020 but had posted career worst offensive numbers in 2019), and Fowler (who had rebounded in 2019 but was still an underwhelming starter and would wind up missing much of the shortened 2020 to injury) on the depth chart.
The way Arozarena immediately broke out after the trade in 2020 and then won Rookie of the Year in 2021 was completely unexpected!
The original writer never said they were ‘ready” (which is a subjective opinion and impossible to know given they weren’t afforded the opportunity to play); he said they had an excess in outfielders in recent years. That’s the point we’re debating..
If we WERE debating the readiness, it ought be pointed out that Garcia went from a full season in AAA in 2019 to playing full time in 2021, separated only by the abbreviated 2020 season that lacked minor league play. So, when given the opportunity, he thrived almost straight out of the gate, as did Arozarena.
But again, the original poster (This one belongs to the Reds) only stated
“They’ve had an excess of outfielders quite a bit in recent years.”
Arozarena was leading the MiLB the year he was traded. There were cries for him to be brought up and used as early as the all star break that year. He was never given the shot he earned in saint Louis that year.
Two years ago -Carlson untouchable in a trade for Soto.
Last year- Bader traded to make room for Carlson as the CF of the future.
This year- 4th outfielder, barely plays, trade bait.
Lol cardinals
He was on the IL a couple times. He is largely in a centerfield platoon with Nootbaar. Carlson is a much better hitter from the right side.
Yet Carlson is hitting just as well against right handed pitching as Edman. The infielder who took his place in center.
That was mostly while Carlson himself was on the IL.
Currently, it’s Edman on the IL, while Carlson is being pushed out by O’Neill, Nootbaar, and Walker, and while Walker would be better as the DH, that slot is often being used for Donovan, Gorman, and Contreras.
They also like to get Burleson in there against some righties, although I personally prefer playing Carlson over him even against righties. for Carlson’s much superior defense even if Burleson possibly hits a little better than him against righties.
I looked it up, and Burleson has hit for a 96 wRC+ this year against righties, while Carlson has only hit for an 84 wRC+ against righties this year and 90 wRC+ for his career.
Meanwhile, Nootbaar has hit for a 120 wRC+ against righties this year, and even O’Neill has hit righties for a 110 wRC+ in his career (not enough of a sample size in this season alone, plus he was playing hurt for a while).
While Carlson’s much better defense compared to Burleson makes up for most if not all of that difference, and he could very well be an everyday player on some other teams, it does help explain why he’s often been platooned this year.
Carlson will never hit righties if he’s not allowed to face them on a regular basis. This lost season is a good time to just let him play and see if he rises to the challenge.
I think Burleson should be DFA’d. Just my opinion. He’s terrible.
Dude. He is hitting for a league average in limited plate appearances. He is a rookie. Let him grow and you’ll be screaming Garcia/arozerena/fallen/ alcantara/ and then Burleson. The dude can hit his advanced metrics say he hits the ball hard at a high clip and has performed fine as a rookie. You can knock his defense but he isn’t Chris Duncan out there. Slightly below average with room to grow with a solid arm. Young players aren’t always what you see is what you get. They develop. Have patience and you’ll be rewarded. And cmon DFA. The dude has plenty of value atleast trade but I wouldn’t trust you to make MO’s coffee if you think to dfa a solid young talented hitter.
Send Burleson to the RS. We’ll figure out the roster slot. He projects to 18 HRs with a good K/W, and was a fringy top-100 prospect last year. He projects to be an above-average player.
Do you think the Cardinals should trade Nootbar? Lots of discussion at the corner donut Shop that he should go. Your thoughts, please.
I think they should keep Nootbaar, Carlson, and Walker. Keep Burleson as the fourth outfielder. Trade or DFA O’Neill and trade at least one of DeJong, Edman, or Donovan. Only one of them now with possibly trading another in the off season to make room for Winn.
Gorman needs to stay at second. He’s become a good second baseman which surprised me. He’s a hard worker. I’ll be really sad if they trade Gorman. He and Walker are the future core of this team.
Please let the defense stabilize and stop moving everyone all over the field. The defensive results have been horrible. These players are interchangable lego blocks.
“Please let the defense stabilize and stop moving everyone all over the field.”
Amen!!!
I meant to say the players are NOT interchanable lego blocks.
Donovan should be untouchable in my opinion. Nobody outhustles him, and I was impressed by his adapting his batting last offseaon. Trade Carlson instead.
Nootbar has earned his spot on the roster, and is a benefit to the team. He’d be a big loss for this team. I expect continued improvement from him.
Agree it’s good to see another cards fan that I see eye to eye on with our future. Gorman and Walker and hopefully Winn joins them next year as our future core.
Two years ago the Cardinals were never emptying the farm for a player who just turned down $400 million.
Bader was traded for much needed pitching which pushed Carlson into centerfield.
I’ll grant you the third puzzling outcome for the best centerfielder on the team. He’s hit better than Edman when given the opportunity.
The trade for Soto was last year, not two years ago.
Yeah, my bad. Point still stands on how they valued him then and value him now.
The Nats asked for four of our top 5 prospects plus Carlson. It wasn’t that they said Carlson was untouchable, it was that they saw that as a massive overpay.
The circumstances have legitimately changed since then. Walker is now in the Majors and hitting very well. DeJong rebounded back into being a pretty good player, which clogged up the MI and forced Donovan and Edman to get more playing time elsewhere. Gorman’s offense broke out and required giving him a lineup spot, at least against righties. Meanwhile, there’s only one DH spot available, which is also being used to keep Contreras’s bat in the lineup on some days he gets off from catching.
The truth is that that log jam of Cardinals outfielders has been caused by moving the logjam of middle infielders into the outfield.
He wasn’t untouchable for Soto. You made that up.
You seem to dislike the Cardinals. Why is that?
That’s easy. Bill Murray told us why: because the Cardinals are Satan’s team
The Cardinals have never said they are shopping Carlson or intend to trade him, that has been suggested here because a Cardinals beat writer keeps suggesting it. He could be traded, but then, maybe not. Biggest problem for the Cardinals “log jam” is Marmol being a lousy manager
I think the Yankees would be willing to trade Boone for Marmol if the Cardinals agreed to swap hitting coaches in the same deal.
Baseball has managers.
Only if we also swap pitching coaches.
It was actually Yankees beat writer Mark Feinsand who reported it.
Cardinals writer John Denton has also suggested it in a recent article. There may be truth to it but i imagine the asking price should be high on a 24 year old Outfielder with 3+ years of team control
As much as I’d hate to see Carlson traded, he would be better off on another team. Marmol has really jerked several players around and Carlson is one of them. They keep giving him mixed signals alternating between reassuring him and completely ignoring him. Saying he’s their guy then not giving him a chance until everyone else is down.
I’m beginning to think the regressions by O’Neill and Carlson when Marmol took over went just a coincidence.
I think if Carlson is traded he will be the next Lane Thomas with much better defense.
Carlson wasn’t the Soro hangup. There were additional players involved. They wanted Walker or Winn included.
I think Carlson would be a good piece for the Cardinals to move for some significant capital coming back but I’m not sure the Yankees are a great fit. They obviously don’t want to give up major-league pitching.
Would either fanbase be satisfied with Carlson going to the Yankees for Will Warren and one of Drew Thorpe or Richard Fitts?
Dylan Carlson and Jack Flaherty for Aaron Civale.
Indians upgrade in CF and get a starter to replace Civale this year; Cards get a SP with several years of control. Civale’s not the most exciting starter but Stl needs to start backfilling that rotation for 2024. They’ll still need to go get a front of the rotation guy via free agency or another trade but the team needs multiple starters for next year and this provides one.
I dint trust Civale with that ERA 2 runs lower than his FIP. I would prefer McKenzie.
Free agency is really the only shot at a top starter. They aren’t willing to trade what it would take to get a front of the rotation starter.
Free agents didn’t work for the rangers or the Yankees
DeGrom aside, the Rangers are in contention because of their free agent spending spree, with Heaney, Gray, Perez and Eovaldi major contributors, and the Yankees have Gerrit Cole because of free agency (and it’s probably a LITTLE early to assess Carlos Rodon).
Do the Cardinals have the willingness and deep pockets to go on a similar spending foray, and sign (for example) Urias, Giolito and Michael Lorenzon?
Urias, Giolito and Michael Lorenzon?
======================
All three will be overpaid imho. They’d be better off extending their own guys and adding the Japanese SP (Yoshi something).
Zero chance that Cleveland trades away Civale for a rental pitcher and then moves Straw’s salary to the bench.
you can keep Civale anyway. He’s not that great.
Jon Jay was always a good player, not just a hot hand. While he never had much power, he made up for it with outstanding OBP marks and around average defense. He was basically the Brendan Dovonvan of the time, just without the ability to play the infield.
Donovan may have been more untouchable last offseason, but I think now he’s like Carlson in that he’s a good player but still among the more likely position players to be traded.
His versatility is matched by Edman, but Edman plays better defense while Donovan hits better overall but still only just a good hitter without much power . Of the two, I think the Cardinals would prefer Edman’s defense, since the offense is already stacked. Donovan does have more years of team control remaining, but that also means he’d bring back more in a trade.
A .432 slugging percentage and pace for 18 HRs ain’t shabby for a middle infielder. The work Donovan did in the offseason to add power to his game has paid off.
Lanidrac;
The Cardinals are the NL’s Yankees.
DeWitt Jr. = Steinbrenner.
Mozeliak = Cashman
Marmol = Boone
They fall in and out of love with players faster than the Kardashians do with boyfriends. They give outrageous / unmovable long-term contracts to what were once impact players. They have no cogent, consistent baseball philosophies – the owners / PoBO’s lunge thus way and that each year – having a new philosophy and filling holes. The players become pawns in some sort of game, their play suffers, and the team doesn’t play like a team.
Both organizations are living off “traditions” – that those now in charge had nothing at all to do with.
Have seen this before. Moving contracts around is not a solution. They’ll continue to contend once every 2-3 years and never go anywhere if they make the playoffs because they’re not really good teams.
The Cardinals have NOT given out many bad long-term contracts. There was Fowler, yes, and Brett Cecil, although that one was relatively pretty cheap for a 4-year deal. The last Carpenter extension was bad, but at least that was only for 2 years. There was Allen Craig, but his career was unexpectedly ruined by a certain injury, and the Cardinals were able to dump him on the Red Sox (and get back a year plus of John Lackey, to boot). DeJong has reedemed himself this year to make his contract a net positive, and the jury is still out on Contreras. Otherwise, the Cardinals have done well with their long-term deals.
Both the Cardinals and Yankees DO have a consistent baseball philosophy and one that works extremely well! Build up consistently good teams without overextending your farm system or budgets so that you can consistently compete almost every season and never need to rebuild. Once in a while, the chips will fall right to where they win the Pennant and maybe the World Series from there.
Even with a lack of more recent success in the playoffs, both franchises are well above par for how often they make and win the World Series when competing against 29 other teams. Meanwhile, the Cardinals have made the playoffs 4 years and a row and 15 consecutive winning records before missing this year, and the Yankees have a similar recent track record.
Lanidrac;
Are you kidding?
The contracts for both Nolan Arenado and Willson Contreras are unmovable. Arenado may have been an impact player a few years ago but the reality is: 1) He’s blocking Walker and Gorman from playing 3B – who in turn are blocking other players from that their positions; 2) Truth be told 3B is the most unimportant defensive position on a team. Before the DH came into being, catchers such as Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench played there for a day or two at a time to rest them from catching. That’s only a start.
The Yankees and Cardinals contend every year? Of course they do – along with 8-10 other teams fighting for a playoff spot during the year. What’s the big deal? There are 15 teams in a league – at least 2 are rebuilding and 2 just plain stink. You spend enough money on veterans salaries and you’re going to compete and possibly go to the playoffs. The Yankees have not been to a WS since 2009; the Cardinals since 2013. Do not confuse those teams and their organizations with the Astros, Dodgers, Braves, Rays, and others.
“Build up consistently good teams without overextending your farm system or budgets so that you can consistently compete almost every season and never need to rebuild.”
What in heavens name are you talking about? Both teams bring up well publicized prospects, most of which turn out to be ordinary. Maybe they ought to rebuild – worked for the Jeter-led Yankees and the early 2000’s Molina-led Cardinals.
For at least the last 8-10 years they bring in veteran players at high salaries and don’t go anywhere. A few years ago the Cardinals brought in Goldschmidt to “Get over the top”. They then brought in Arenado to “Get over the top”. Today they’re last / next to last in the 2nd worst division in MLB. In fact, they’re worse then when they brought those guys in. And how about the trade for Goldschmidt? Supposedly the DBacks got back some solid prospects for them to base off of. None of those guys amounted to anything.
It’s not the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s anymore. The game has changed. These organizations have great fan bases, and I can assure you that those 2 fans bases are angry and have been for years. Read the comments from baseball fans in the NYC and St. Louis papers…..
“Fed Up” doesn’t begin to tell the story.
Who cares that they’re unmovable when Arenado is one of the best contracts the Cardinals have, which was acquired in one of the most lopsided trades in recent memory! He’s worth playing both Gorman and Walker out of position.
Which defensive chart are you looking at? Everyone knows that 3B is the 5th most important defensive position behind only the four up-the-middle positions: C, SS, 2B, and CF.
As for Contrearas, I already said the jury is still out on that one, but it will probably wind up as a decent contract at worst.
Yes, many teams contend every year, but the Cardinals and Yankees and more recently the Dodgers are the only organizations run so well that they compete ALMOST EVERY SINGLE YEAR! The Cardinals will almost certainly be back in contention next year, as well. Every other team has to take a break from contention more often than that.
A team like the Astros is really good now, but they absolutely stank for a few years before they became good and hadn’t won a World Series in their entire existence dating back to 1962 before they won in 2017 and last year. With the crapshoot style of the playoffs, maximizing your years of winning records and playoff appearances is absolutely the way to go.
Now you’re just making stuff up, since Jeter and Molina were never on rebuilding teams. Developing a superstar is extremely rare, and the Cardinals and Yankees have developed enough of these supposedly “ordinary” players that they’re still good enough to win almost every year.
Your definition of :”going anywhere” is extremely flawed. The Cardinals have brought in veterans players to go with young players they’ve developed to absolutely go somewhere with so many winning records, tons of trips to the playoffs, several to the NLCS, a Pennant as recently as 2013 and a World Championship as recently as 2011. If that isn’t going somewhere, then almost no team ever goes anywhere!
Yes, the Cardinals absolutely won the Goldschmidt trade, and since then he’s helped the Cardinals to 4 straight playoff appearances, a trip to the NLCS, and a decent shot at another playoff trip next year. You can’t ask for much more than that! Besides, the offense actually is much better than it was in 2019.
Yes, Cardinals fans are disappointed at this one season, but almost no one complains about all of their recent success before this season.
Why do you somehow think that a team needs to win a Pennant and/or World Series every 5 years or so against 29 other teams to be successful?! Such a notion is incredibly stupid and completely unrealistic!
Arenado can be moved pretty easily. He doesn’t have a ton of surplus value on the contract but they’d have no issues finding a few teams interested if the goal was to clear salary. They wouldn’t get a huge prospect return since you’re paying for his age 33+ seasons.
Laughable post atleast if you gonna talk smack. Be correct cards last WS was 09….. we weren’t even in 09 but they won in 11 and we’re back in 13. They also are middle ground when it comes to team salary.
Correction I apologize I somehow missed you had said Yankees 09 but still we don’t spend like the Yankees and arenado contract isn’t really that bad and it’s structure and the Rockies paying portions and it’s just fine
Samuel, some of your argument is based on the 2023 Cards. But they made the playoffs the previous 4 years, so I would suggest the addition of Goldy & Arenado were both positive.
In addition, I believe that both could be moved for value. Goldy has one year left for $26M and has a .846 OPS. SD definitely be in on him. Arenado has $109M/4 (I assume that should be $94M/4 with the Rox contribution). He’s on the decline, but a team like the Yankees should be looking at him as a semi long-term replacement for Donaldson.
He’s worth playing both Gorman and Walker out of position.
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I’ll go with Samuel on this one. I like both Goldy & Arenado, but if you have capable kids that can replace expensive and aging veterans, you should almost always do so.
1B-Walker
2B-Edman
SS-DeJong
3B-Gorman
LF-Burleson
CF-Nootbar
RF-Carlson
DH-Donovan
Bench-O’Neill
That saves you $61M which can extend Monty, Flaherty and land you the Japanese SP. You will likely be better with the ancillary benefit of having one of the youngest field teams in BB.
Getting rid of guys deemed to be redundant, only because you want to hold onto guys 36 & 33 nest year, makes no sense to me.
Joe;
Yes, I’ve thought about the Yankees as well as the Angels (Arenado grew up in Newport Beach – Angels market).
Nevertheless, that’s a lot of money for a guy that’s 33, appears to have peaked, and while he’s a GG 3B it’s hardly a critical defensive position such as C, SS of CF. Adrián Beltré won 5 Gold Gloves and 2 Platinum Gloves retiring in 2018 – How many times have we heard or read something about his steller D in he past 5 years? It was nice, but he hit and that’s what people remember him for.
I’d also add that it appears that teams are slowly getting away from long-term $30m-plus yearly contracts.
“Appears to have peaked”…as Arenado sits at 132 OPS+ directly on the heels of a 151 OPS+ season. This is laughable.
Like I said, I assume he will decline if he hasn’t already. But he is still a very good player. I have no idea where the NYY are going in the future, but assuming they get the Rox contribution, his $94M/4 is a pretty fair salary for someone with maybe a 3.5+ WAR, especially for a team that prints money and is on the cusp of a playoff slot.
Just like I said with the Phillies two years ago, were Schwarber & Castellanos good signings? Not imo. But they were also signings that the Phillies had to make.
It doesn’t matter what would look good for the Yankees because the Cardinals aren’t trading Arenado.
KEEP CARLSON!!!!!!
If the Yankees are interested in him, I worry about his career. Best he either be kept, or traded to a different team.
Let me get this straight. Carlson has much more value than O’Neill but O’Neill will get playing time over him. Only way this makes sense is to showcase O’Neill. They’ll hang onto Carlson.
No question this time is a showcase for ONeill prior to a trade. He will not be a Cardinal in August.
With all this depth the Cardinals have you would think they would have a better record
drascoo36
Having one of the worst pitching staffs in the league has consequences.
The only reason they are looking at trading pitchers is the season is over and they are pending free agents who don’t want a contract extension.
Anyone think the Cards can trade Wilson Contreras?
Unfortunately, he has a full no trade clause but with his input, it’s POSSIBLE in the offseason, with cash included (or a bad contract coming in return). He has SOME value, just not what Stl paid for him.
It would constitute a blatant admission on Mo’s part that he f’d up however and I’m not sure he’d be willing to do that.
No team is touching that contract – even the Mets and Padres.
Don’t count AJ Preller out! They do have a need behind the plate and aren’t afraid to do stupid things.
Bstrowman9;
I’ve thought about that, but from what I’ve read they (finally) intend to go with Luis Campusano in 2024.
Keep in mind that after this season Wilson Contreras has $92.5m coming over the next 4 years – starting at age 32 which is old for a catcher…..and he’s an awful one.
The Padres can always find a Gary Sánchez type available (also awful) on the scrap heap each year. This year the guy’s getting paid $1.5m. Why be locked into a guy making 12 times that? Even the Padres are not that screwy.
If I was Mo, I would trade TON to Toronto, because they love Canadian players. Maybe Seattle if Toronto isn’t interested.
Then trade Dejong to any team that will take him. The outfield and infield would still be crowded at that point and they could shop Gorman and Carlson as a package for a top of the rotation controllable arm. Maybe someone from Miami or Cleveland.
Shopping Gorman is a bad idea. He’s 23 and on a clear upward trajectory on both offense and defense. He will be the next trade to haunt if they trade him
Shopping and trading are two different things. It’s always smart to see what your assets are worth. I mentioned Cleveland and Miami specifically because they have the quality arms to make Gorman expendable. The offer would have to be high and a Gorman trade is unlikely to happen, I agree on that. STL would still be doing itself a disservice by not asking around on Nolan and others.
I think a Tyler O’Neill or Carlson trade is more likely to happen and Mo will target pitching in those plus the Flaherty, Montgomery, & Hicks returns.
They need to wait until the off season for everyone but the pending free agents. They would be selling low on both Carlson and O’Neill. What’s the hurry?
I think the hope is that you can combine the free agents-to-be with a longer term asset in order to get a bigger return.
You aren’t getting established quality starting pitching for that package. What contender has pitching to trade? Contenders are the only people buying. Prospects are all you’re getting from them.
Why would the situation be any different/better in the offseason (i.e. who EVER wants to give up ‘quality starting pitching”?) Both O’Neill and Carlson’s value are as likely to go down as it is to go up, especially if the team doesn’t clear this logjam of players and open up playing time.
Currently, contenders are under some pressure, and may therefore be willing to give up talent they’d hold onto otherwise. A deal for a starting pitcher may be easier to construct if the Cardinals can include one in return, albeit a rental.
I have no illusions of acquiring an ace (or a current #2 either). Two month rentals rarely return a significant haul, unless you’re trading a Goldschmidt/Arenado/Machado/Scherzer type. So combining the value of said rental with a player the other team can dream on/hold onto could be the best way to get the starter Stl needs.
What’s the hurry? To get pitching into the organization, something the team should’ve done more of last offseason. You don’t want to sell the top performing youngsters like Gorman, and you don’t want to sell low on a vet like O’Neill or youngster like Carlson but the outfield and infield are crowded and pitching is lacking. TON and Carlson will have less value in the offseason, if they don’t rebound. I understand taking that risk if STL needed OF but they have too many ML ready hitters as it is.
Give Carlson and O’Neill time to improve their trade value. Again, no contenders are dealing significant pitching assets. Montgomery should get the team a good pitching prospect since he’s currently giving top of the rotation performance.
Cardsfan57,
With the team ALREADY saying Carlson’s playing time will be reduced, how do you foresee him ‘improving” his trade value?
Should the Cardinals bench Walker and/or Noot (to say nothing of Edman when he comes back, Donovan and Burleson – with the DH spot already further cluttered by Gorman and Contreras)?
Either O’Neill gets better or he should be benched. He was pretty bad in Memphis. I don’t see why he’ll do better against MLB pitching.
The easy and obvious solution is to move Goldy & Arenado while you can. You have more than capable replacements for both and can save $61M.
I don’t get to decide. I already said that’s the fastest way to rebuild the pitching staff and get back to the World Series. That’s not going to happen. MO will keep up his just barely good enough to get to the playoffs model.
Comment section is better than the article.
Can an informed Cardinal fan please tell me their opinion on why Burleson is even on the major league roster? Is it because he’s left handed? Well we have Carlson now. His defense is mediocre at best, and his bat is awful. I really don’t understand keeping him around. But then they send Walker down? This is like the twilight zone this year.
his bat is awful.
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I really don’t know what you are looking at. He projects to 18 HRs as a rookie, with a very good K/W.
You don’t know what I’m looking at? His stats. 196 AB, 6 HR, 21 RBI, .240 batting average, 47 hits. Projections are fine and good but what have you done for me lately? Is this a guy you want roaming the outfield for your major league team? If it is, we can agree to disagree.
I’ll make this easy for Mozaliak. Every body is available. Nobody is untouchable, no fair deals aren’t turned down.
You must move all expiring contracts. Moving Goldschmidt is your next biggest priority.
Nootbaar, Carlson, Edman, Donovan you can keep a max of one.
Burleson, Yepez, O’Neil Gomez, you can keep a max of one.
Herrera, Kizner, you can keep a max of one.
The kept player is not untouchable by any means, but if still around after the trade deadline, it’s who you name your starter moving forward. Anyone left who is not your kept player, is either sent to the minors, relegated to a back up/bench role or DFA’d.
Your goal is to get through the rest of the season healthy and acquire as many young high upside prospect players that’s should be ready to debut in 2025, as possible.
When the season is over, your back in action listening to all offers on who is left or newly acquired to get more talent or upgrade what you have filling in with free agents on short term deals to get by in 2024.
I get that the cards never want to go all in as their goal is to have a competitive team every year and if it is a bad year they just say “next year will be better” but honestly I think going into the season without trading for another starter was a big mistake.
Sure the rotation did underperform some but even last year it was a low k staff and losing yadi and also losing the shift (which hurts low k pitchers more) made it expectable that the pitching would regress. They also had some bad luck with hitting (third in nl in team wrc+ but only 6th in runs) but the biggest issue of course is the pitching.
I’m not saying they should have sold the farm or even a stud like walker but they have a logjam and could have traded 1 or 2 out of Burleson, Donovan, o’neill, yepez and Carlsson without mortgaging the future.
But instead went into the season with all those guys and even needlessly called up walker on opening day (he is doing fine now but they could have waited 6 weeks and then make an early season trade to make room for him).
I’m not saying mozeliak is a bad GM, he always keeps them team in the mix even if they occasionally miss the post season and his approach is sensible but what preller and dombrowski have too much I think he has a bit too little, he kinda sometimes is a little gun shy even when it comes to giving up fringe pieces.
This year of course it probably is too late (even though at 10 games back in that terrible division there is a tiny chance) so if they want to make a trade it would need to be for a pitcher with multiple years of control.
Marmol is clueless when it comes to putting a good defensive team on the field. Simply plays anyone that might hit without regard to how mediocre their defensive play will be and its ultimate negative effect on team results. There is no need to play Burleson in the OF nor putting Gorman on the field at 2B, he simply has no true ability to play defense, he is a DH. All the focus on putting hitting on the field despite defensive liabilities is to do anything to make up for the lack of valid starting pitching. The constant changing of positional plays has been a negative throughout play in 2023 and the incessant turmoil in the batting order even more negative. Edman at 2B all day long over Gorman any day. DeJong is the best available SS, over anyone STL has, hitting well or not. Sorry, Carlson is a better OF than Nootbar and should be viewed as the starter with Nootbar as the bench 4th OF. Trading Carlson for mediocre return is very likely what STL will do, just to try and show Mozeliak is doing something.
The fascination with Lars Nootbar is a most complex thing. He is “untouchable”? A guy with a career minor league track record that was solid, not spectacular. His first couple years in the Majors, solid, not spectacular.
He has improved his average this year against last year, up to a solid .258, but the power has regressed from last year, though he has picked up a few more steals.
Basically, he is a lot like Alex Verdugo, but with even less average. What standout tool does Nootbar have? Not saying he is bad, his approach and plate discipline are very good, he seems to be versatile and is a solid depth contributor, but a foundational building block? Untouchable? I truly don’t get that.
If someone came to the Cards with a legit pitching option, they should make Nootbar’s plane ticket reservation immediately.
The Cardinals threw Adolis Garcia in the trash, and Ranger fans are very appreciative of that.
I have a feeling this winning streak the Cardinals are on will give them the idea that they are contenders. They will squander their chance to get anything for Montgomery and Flaherty.
Kansas City is wanting Carlson trade him and bursliin for singer and Barlow. Put Geminis in there too
What conceivable reason would the Cards want Barlow?
8th inning man
I’m not sure I’d trade Carlson for Singer straight up, let alone add Burleson, to just add Barlow. This would be a terrible trade for St Louis. But to mention, who pitches for KC? We all know they won’t spend more than 20 dollars on a free agent
If you can trade singer for singer and Barlow that would be ok I was just wondering how to get some pitching.
Carlson and Jordan Hicks for to Miami for Jake Eder, Karson Millibrant, Jacob Berry and a lottery ticket.
Classic Karl Hungus conundrum.
Marlins need a center fielder. But I agree that the Cards shouldn’t get rid of any of their young players. They should get rid of Marmol first.
Carlson was a top prospect and highly touted. Kills left handed pitching. If he can improve against right handers he will be fine.
A very unpopular opinion but the Cards should consider unloading Arenado and Goldschmidt. Play Burleson at 1B, Walker at 3B, then review in the offseason. They’ll have money to grab SP and another bat.
This is just terrible roster construction from Mo, I understand wanting to grab the best players, but if you already have Trout, Judge and Acuna starting with Julio Rodriguez & Juan Soto riding the bench because they can’t play with the starters do you really want to sign Mookie Betts even though he’s the “best player on the board??” At some point you have to see what your needs are vs. what you already have, so if you have 70 OF’s already on the ML roster or in the minor league system, but don’t have many starting pitchers, you don’t take the best player available even if its an OF, you look for a SP even if it’s the 4th or 5th best player on the board. And that’s where the Cards are with Mo. They need to clear this OF logjam (both in St. Louis and in Memphis) and come away with a young SP with multiple years of control. Take 3 of the following OF’s: DC (Carlson), Noot (Nootbaar), TON (O’Neil), Alec Burleson & Juan Yepez and add them in a package with Monty, Hicks, Flaherty, Statton, & DeJong, and see if they can add a SP or 2 with at least 2+ years of control.