The Cardinals are coming out of the All-Star break with a 38-52 record, placing them in last place in the National League Central and 11 games back in the Wild Card race. President of baseball operations John Mozeliak recently admitted that the club will have to approach the deadline as sellers, focusing on making moves that benefit the 2024 club.
The club has just over two weeks until the August 1 deadline, giving them some time to figure out their plans, but Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch has a report with some specifics that shine a light on their current plans. Notably, the Cards are uninterested in trading core players like Nolan Arenado, Paul Goldschmidt, Lars Nootbaar and Jordan Walker. They are open, however, to trading pitchers like Jordan Montgomery, Jordan Hicks, Ryan Helsley and Génesis Cabrera, while Jack Flaherty is already generating interest from other clubs. As for what kind of player they are looking to bring in, Goold lists Logan Gilbert of the Mariners as someone they are interested in.
To be clear, there’s no indication that the Mariners have any inclination towards trading Gilbert, but it’s entirely understandable why the Cards would be interested. The 26-year-old Gilbert has made 74 starts to this point in his career, posting a 3.75 ERA with a 24% strikeout rate, 5.7% walk rate and 36.9% ground ball rate. He’s right in line with those figures this year, having a 3.66 ERA with similar peripherals in 18 starts.
More importantly for the Cardinals, Gilbert can be immediately plugged into their rotation and has plenty of club control remaining. He came into this season with one year and 144 days of service time and will finish this season at 2.144. That makes him a virtual lock to qualify for arbitration as a Super Two player this winter, but he will still have four years of club control left, meaning he isn’t slated to become a free agent until after the 2027 season.
The Cards are not planning a deep rebuild but are instead focused on next year’s club, when they have plenty of rotation uncertainty. Adam Wainwright is planning to retire after this year, while both Flaherty and Montgomery are impending free agents. They have also seen some internal options struggle this year. Steven Matz had an ERA of 5.72 through 10 starts before getting bumped to the bullpen, though he recently retook a rotation job after some solid relief work. Matthew Liberatore has decent numbers in Triple-A but a 6.75 ERA in the majors this year. Dakota Hudson has spent most of the year in Triple-A, posting an ERA of 6.00 at that level. All of that leaves Miles Mikolas as the only sure thing for next year’s rotation.
But Seattle wouldn’t give up Gilbert easily. The club is 45-44 right now and just four games out in the American League Wild Card race. Gilbert is a key part of their rotation right now and for future seasons, given his aforementioned years of control. If they were to give any thought to moving him, they would likely have to get back something that helps some other part of their roster in the here and now. They also have Luis Castillo, George Kirby and Bryan Woo in their rotation alongside Gilbert, but Robbie Ray is out of the season while Bryce Miller and Marco Gonzales are currently on the injured list. Subtracting Gilbert from that mix would to be weighed against the benefits of an upgrade elsewhere.
The Mariners have tried to do a buy-sell hybrid before, which was in 2021. They flipped relievers Kendall Graveman and Rafael Montero to the Astros in exchange for Joe Smith and Abraham Toro, while picking up Diego Castillo and Tyler Anderson in separate deals. The move didn’t work out, with the clubhouse apparently not thrilled by the closer suddenly pitching for a divisional rival and the M’s ultimately missing the playoffs.
This year’s trade deadline is generally considered to have a lack of sellers that may force clubs to consider trades between contenders, with each club giving up current major league talent, such as last year’s deal where the Cards got Montgomery from the Yankees for Harrison Bader. A Gilbert trade would be a significantly different beast though, since Montgomery and Bader each had just a season and a half of club control remaining at the time. When factoring in Gilbert’s extra control and the fact that the M’s just got burned on the hybrid deadline strategy not too long ago, it’s hard to view a trade coming together as a likely scenario.
Nonetheless, the interest from the Cardinals is instructive as to what their targets might be. They have a crowded position player mix and may perhaps look to swap someone from that group for some controllable pitching, even if it’s not Gilbert. It remains to be seen which players they are willing to put on the table in such a pursuit, but it seems they’ll hang onto Arenado, Goldschmidt, Nootbaar and Walker.
It’s not a terrible shock to see those names listed as off-limits. Goldschmidt and Arenado are the two most important players on the club, finishing first and third respectively in National League MVP voting last year. Both players also have full no-trade clauses, which would make a deal complicated even if the Cardinals wanted to consider it. The players could always waive their clauses but Goold reports that Arenado has not been approached about doing so and would prefer to stay anyway. There’s been no reporting to suggest that anything is different with Goldschmidt.
Walker was one of the top prospects in the league coming into this year and is faring well in his first season, hitting .283/.347/.457 for a 123 wRC+ thus far. He made the club’s Opening Day roster but was optioned for over a month at one point, meaning he’ll come up shy of one year of major league service here in 2023 and leave the Cards with six further seasons of control. As a consensus top prospect, he could earn that full year by finishing in the top two of Rookie of the Year voting, but he would still be a key part of the club’s future even in that scenario.
Nootbaar, meanwhile, has hit .241/.343/.420 in 226 career games while providing above-average outfield defense. He will still have four years of control remaining after this one and isn’t slated to qualify for arbitration until after 2024.
Just because those names are listed as unavailable, it doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone not named is therefore available, but the club will likely have to move someone. Tyler O’Neill has often been speculated as a candidate since the club has Nootbaar, Walker, Dylan Carlson and others in the outfield mix. On the infield, meanwhile, Tommy Edman and Brendan Donovan have somewhat similar multi-positional profiles and have been pushed to the grass with Paul DeJong and Nolan Gorman often in the middle infield. If the Cards have their sights set on an impact rotation addition like Gilbert or someone similar, they might have to make the difficult decision of parting with someone in that group.
Though that situation seems fluid and has many factors, the rental pitching seems much more straightforward. Each of Montgomery, Flaherty and Hicks are impending free agents and seem virtual locks to be moved at this point. Montgomery is a consistent mid-rotation guy, with a 3.75 career ERA and a 3.23 mark here in 2023. He’s making $10MM this year, which will leave about $3.22MM left to be paid out at the deadline.
Flaherty has shown ace upside in the past but was held back by injuries in recent years. He’s not back to those ace levels this year, currently sporting a 4.27 ERA, but he’s at least healthy and effective enough for a rotation job. Hicks, meanwhile, has triple-digit velocity and seems to be finally figuring out how to weaponize it properly.
Helsley and Cabrera aren’t strict rentals and don’t need to be moved at this deadline, necessarily. But given the volatility of relief performance, it’s logical for the Cardinals to consider what kind of return they can get right now. Helsley seemed to take over the closer’s role last year, posting a 1.25 ERA and racking up 19 saves in the process. He has a 3.24 ERA this year but has been on the injured list for the past month due to a strained right forearm. Players on the IL can be traded but his health status might cast a shadow over trade talks. He can be controlled for two more seasons after this one via arbitration. He’s making $2.15MM and will have about $700K left to be paid out when the deadline rolls around.
Cabrera, 26, has been inconsistent in terms of his strikeouts but has always had subpar control. Regardless, left-handed relief tends to always be in demand to some degree. He has a 4.07 ERA in his career but a 4.70 mark this year. He’s struck out 25.7% of opponents this season but walked 13.2%. Like Helsley, he can be retained via arbitration for two more campaigns after this one. He’s making $950K this year, which will leave just over $300K at deadline time.
All in all, there are many moving parts for the Cardinals to consider, making them one of the most interesting clubs to watch in the coming weeks. They haven’t been in the clear seller position in a while, but they seem well-positioned to take advantage of it. Few clubs are in the same category and many of the other clear sellers have far less to offer in terms of players that would be of interest for contending clubs.
SODOMOJO
………………….
Gwynning
After reading the headline I said outloud- “Who isn’t?”
iverbure
This isn’t really worth talking about but if the cards called the mariners about Gilbert the mariners ask would start with Jordan Walker. Mariners probably shouldn’t be in the motivated buyers category so they aren’t going to interested in trading a starter who’s under control for at least 4 more years if I read the article correctly.
I put Gilbert’s name in the trade sim just to see what it would take from the cards perspective from the guys they’re interested in dealing. Nootbaar Gorman Hensley and Jordan Montgomery doesn’t equal his value and the mariners would still have to move 3 guys off the 40 man. Not to mention the Mariners needs which I’m not going to look into because this is a useless exercise. It’s just not going to happen because gms don’t make moves like that.
The cards will sell their free agent to be and maybe a RP for prospects.
Little Stevie Janowsky
You have to be joking right? Nootbaar is worth about 4 Logan Gilberts.
Jm207* 2
Why does everyone overrate Nootbar so much? He’s really nothing special.
Little Stevie Janowsky
He’s a 5 tool player and a marketing icon. He has potential to be one of the best players in baseball. If you can’t recognize his talent you should stick to watching soccer.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Good joke! Nootbaar sucks. He’s like a giant slap hitter with average speed.
mlb fan
Nootbar is one of the main reasons the Cards don’t have Sean Murphy; he’s highly OVER valued and overrated imo.
Little Stevie Janowsky
I bet you think ohtani sucks too! You’re real funny pal.
mlb fan
Comparing Nootbar to Ohtani; now that’s “funny”.
dumper
Nootbaar is pretty good. Logan is also pretty good. Logan is the 9th best pitcher in the al, nootbaar is probably not the 9th best hitter in the nl.
mlb fan
“5 tool player”..Many in Cards land were saying the same thing 2 years ago about Tyler Oneill and he’s now persona non grata in St. Louis.
dumper
Bruh, you are just throwing random numbers out there. Clearly, you have no evidence to back up what you are saying. Before you make more of a fool of yourself, go research how trade value works.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
So the Cardinals are saying, we want a valuable commodity for the crap in our cupboards! The prospects in the Cardinals system are not as good as the prospects in the Mariners system.
The only guys worth considering is Jordan Walker and maybe Nolan Gorman if Dipoto thinks they can cleanup his strikeout problems.
I wouldn’t trade Gilbert unless I could get Walker, Montgomery, and Herrera, would even throw in RP Isaiah Campbell.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Gilbert is a younger version of mikolas decent back end guy nothing more. Carlson is equal his value take it or leave it. Good luck with zero offense and a rotation full of young inexperienced back of the rotation starters. Maybe you guys will be able to finish third in your division this year!
iverbure
What place are the Cardinals going to finish in the nl central which might be the weakest division in baseball and at best the 2nd weakest?
King of Cards
I would trade Nootbaar for Gilbert. Or Walker. Both guys are overrated according to trade values imo.
If I was a Mariners fan I would want my team to try to win in 2023. 1 playoff appearance in the last 2 decades. Julio Rodriguez has pretty eyes but he’s not going to carry them on his back. The Mariners need help now in order to win now. The future can’t always be the goal.
Little Stevie Janowsky
All good. It’s called a break year! You guys have been having break years every year….since…well FOREVER!
Little Stevie Janowsky
@king of cards hey cubs fan change your name bud
S_man_2014
Nootbaar is a younger version of what David Peralta is now decent 4th outfielder nothing more
mynameisjeff253
This is a joke right? there is nothing special about Nootbaar at all. Meanwhile, how many young, controllable pitchers are out there that possess the skill set of Logan Gilbert? I’ll give you an answer, Giolito is probably up there but doesn’t have the controllable time frame as Gilbert. that’s kt. it’s absolutely going to take Jordan Walker just to get the conversation started. Pitching does not grow on trees and is hard to come by, that is if you are not the Seattle Mariners.
mynameisjeff253
LOL, this has to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever read. Gilbert would be the ace of your staff. When he is on, he is a #2 or at worst a #3. You clearly don’t know ba.
iverbure
The mariners aren’t going to win in 2023 unless there is massive improvements from within the roster not outside. Might pick up a cheaper rental but they’re the 3rd best team in their division and the east is stacked.
No reason to put a bunch of chips in the pot unless you’re a clear favourite.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Hey Jeff I think your nursing home has a policy against going on the internet don’t they? Go eat your rice pudding and take a nap buddy because you’re saying some frighteningly idiotic things right now.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Nootbaar is basically prime Grady Sizemore. If he stays healthy he will be a top 5 player in baseball.
Javia135
Soler is the 9th best hitter in the NL. His OPS+ is 137. Lars Nootbaar? 104. That is what you call AVERAGE.
Javia135
Logan Gilbert has an ERA+ of 113. That is above average, maybe even a LOWER plus. Staff ACE? Not unless your staff stinks.
King of Cards
Bure that’s defeatist talk. I can’t believe that you as a fan can say that.
JerseyShoreScore
Cardinals have held firm on Dylan Carlson too… Not including Carlson in a Soto trade offer last year was reportedly an issue, as the Cards would not include him. Nowadays, Carlson is virtually worthless. We may here a year from now saying the same thing about Nootbaar who has been mediocre at best to date.
cards81
Everyone needs to stop bashing Noot lol he has a .260 BA but also a .358 OBP…he walks a lot…has a great eye…place great OF defense and has a great arm…plus he is a great teammate and an international star…I know being an international star doesn’t mean much on the field but it does with marketing and money
iverbure
I’m not a fan, that’s why I have proper opinions. I think how baseball executives think.
Little Stevie Janowsky
No you dont @iver, you think how someone that’s been ran over head first by a car one too many times.
iverbure
You’re opinion is irrelevant
diggin4three
Noot, Monty, Gorman and Helsley doesn’t equal his trade value ?? What are you smoking?? KEEP HIM.
Little Stevie Janowsky
I think someone needs to clean your diaper buddy
Tigers3232
Which 5 tools??? Never at any level of Minors or MLB has he showed plus power, speed, or hit tool. So not sure where this 5 tool comment is coming from….
iverbure
I can’t make this clear enough. Gilbert isn’t getting traded especially not for the Cardinals spare parts.
cards81
If it is true that the Mariners need a 3b or a 2B I think something might happen…might not be Gilbert but I could see Gorman or Donovan headlining a trade…of course it would be more but I would think that would get them talking..those guys are not spare parts
asdfgh
Lay off the crack than Gilbert isn’t that good.
asdfgh
Not happening with the Mariners if you are giving up Gorman he’s worth more than Gilbert hands down. He’s also a hitter we should keep he’s going to be a great talent we would regret. Unless he’s getting us a stud SP who’s hopefully LHP if possible and controlled like Gorman if not move along pretend GMs
mlb fan
Myself, I’m not down on Nootbar at all; he’s young, cheap; versatile, useful and obviously serviceable. What I’m saying, is I find it almost laughable that he’s considered “untouchable” in potential trades involving Soto & Sean Murphy, since he reminds me of literally dozens of other young OF I’ve seen in the last few yrs. My best comp for Nootbar, is former Mariner and current Red, Jake Fraley, another cheap, versatile, useful player. Personally, if I’m the Cards, I’d trade Nootbar and his whole family, plus a couple prospects, to acquire Sean Murphy.
asdfgh
Your trolling is over valued don’t you have anything better to do maybe get a job
Riontyler
You’re saying walker is overrated? There’s a strong argument for countering the same for noot. I’d venture a bet that you’ve never watched either play.
stan lee the manly
O‘Neil being chronically hurt in no way, shape, or form detracts from the fact that he is a 5 tool player. He just can’t stay on the field to use the tools.
cdouglas24000
I 1000x agree about Nootbar. His defense is merely average. Wow an OF that hits .265 has 20 hrs and 5 sbs and gets 70 walks a year. Whoopty fu##ing doo
belkiolle
97th percentile in chase rate, 92nd percentile BB rate, No hit tool?
Well above league average exit velocities – He has power.
He doesn’t have plus plus speed but he’s easily plus and he’s an excellent baserunner.
iH8PaperStraws
Your stats just prove the point. He doesn’t swing the bat. He looks to walk first, especially with RISP, that’s where his highest walk rate is. He knows so singles will lower his slugging percentage and that will lower the almighty OPS stat. He only swings when he get his perfect pitch that he believes he can get a double. The success to getting Lars Nootbaar out is simply throwing stikes. I get it though, as obvious as this is to see, fans need something to root for and he’s charasmatic. So they make themselves believe his walk are a good then instead of the true detriment to the team that are. Kind of like the last years of CRlos Martinez, he wasn’t pitching great, but he made games with the water cups and did silly home run celebrations so he was still beloved like he was Sandy Koufax.
belkiolle
RISP is also where Nootbaar’s highest batting average (.413) and wRC+ (193) are. this season. It’s also his lowest K% situation. His highest OBP and SLG are with RISP too. You sure you’re looking at the right stats?
iH8PaperStraws
His 26 rbi and 6 home runs to this point are super impressive. all of his damage comes in garbage time when the team is either up or or down by 5 runs. He’s afraid to swing the bat when it matters. How can you watch the games every night and not be disappointed every time. His nightly live performance doesn’t match up the super status bestowed upon him.
Tigers3232
@Belk if you have to nitpick stats to try and justify him being avg or above avg on any given tool, that tells you all you need to know. Nootbar has been in STL organization since 2018 and has never put up anywhere near 5 tool stats, that’s the bottom line.
This is not a knock on him as a player. But in this thread a few of the claims of his talent are ridiculously overstated. Now Oneil, he has put up 5 tool stats and he has proven to b injury prone. But Noot is the last of 3 starters in OF on any average MLB team that is reality.
diggin4three
I know most Cards fans won’t agree, but that doesn’t bother me.. Judging by what we’ve seen so far, I have to agree (and have been for a long time) Noot is extremely overrated. Extremely. Only time will tell us how good he really is, but what I expect to see after sustained experience is an average-slightly above average MLB outfielder. I haven’t understood at all what people see to make them think he’s going to be so good.
diggin4three
With all that said, I know I could be wrong about him, only time will tell, not opinions.
ayrbhoy
I can cherry pick metrics to describe Cardinals players like you have to describe Logan Gilbert. ERA+ doesn’t calculate errors or passed ball runs- Gilbert has been a victim of bad luck this year which is why his ERA and ERA+ is what it is.
Let’s cherry pick- Logan Gilbert also has the 2nd Lowest WHIP in all of baseball- 0.98. Only 1 Pitcher in all of MLB has a lower WHI. Gilbert’s WHIP is lower than every Staff Ace in MLB except Tyler Wells in BAL. The Cardinals fans on here who think Logan Gilbert is a “back end starter” are people who judge him only by his ERA. They don’t know he has one of the best sliders in baseball. They are unaware of the 31.3 whiff % on that pitch or it’s 26.9 K%. He has also developed a splitter to attach LH’s. It too has become one of the best offspeed pitches in MLB. That pitch has a .125 BAA and a 33.3 Whiff% and a 40.5 K%. His splitter has one of the highest put away % in MLB. He regularly hits 97-98 mph with his FB. His big 6’6” frame has an extension that is in the 99th percentile in MLB. Oh and btw he is just 26 years old!! Back end starter comment is hilarious.
Tigers3232
@ayrb O have not mentioned anything about Gilbert….
Tigers3232
My bad, thought u were ripping Gilbert.
Cardsfanatik redux
statcast is hard…. not. to say there’s nothing special about Nootbar shows your ignorance. you’re not getting Walker for Gilbert. You’re probably not getting Nootbar for him. Not because they’re worth more, but because they’re worth more to the Cardinal’s. Gilbert is a good pitcher, but he’s no one’s playoff #1 starter. Seattle and St. Louis match up well, but it’s all in what they each want to give up.
Tigers3232
What specifically is special about Nootbar seriously? He’s a decent corner OF has poor defensive #s in center. Has yet to put up any noteworthy power #s or hit consistently. Doesn’t steal any bases. What exactly does he do special?? He has been in Cards system since 2018 and his #s have not been special at any level.
Cardsfanatik redux
Do you know how to use statcast? All of his stats are red, except OF jump… He has awesome plate discipline, 97th percentile chase rate. That’s right at the top of the league. 69th percentile sprint speed. His exit velocity’s are up there as well. He was top 10% last year in exit velocity. He’s also had an injury this year, but still they’re good. You say he’s a terrible defender… Ok, again, you’re wrong. He’s in the 81st percentile in Outs Above Average. While Gilbert is a nice pitcher, His spin rates suck, His barrel percentage and his average exit velocity are far from elite as well. Just go sit down. I’m not going to write a book because you’re to lazy to look it up. I have NO IDEA what Seattle wants for their pitching, but I do know that there are 29 other teams that would LOVE to put Nootbaar in Right, Left, or Center field, and call it a day.
Tigers3232
I don’t care what statcastsays, what has that translated to in production since 2018 that has even been above average?? His production simply has in no way been special. And BTW he is rather bad defensively in CF. In the corners he plays much better.
Tigers3232
It’s not about being to lazy to look up his statcast, I simply don’t care to. I can look at his production from the time he has joined Cards system in 2018 and he has been nothing special any stop along the way. That’s just reality. His exit velocity hasn’t helped him hit for above average power or get hits regularly. This alleged 69th percentile speed as yet to see him have double digit steals in any season at any level. So again where is the production??
diggin4three
I’m sick of obsessed baseball nerds who know it all, but probably couldn’t play any sport worth a sht, trying to tell all of us there are so many new ways of determining a player’s worth to his team. I compare Noot to a lot of the players who came before him, players most fans would say wasn’t that good, unless the player was on their favorite team. I don’t care who calls me ignorant or anything other insult. I don’t think Noot is a special talent by any means, but as usual, I will let his production over time make the final judgment, not some wannabe know it alls on the internet. Noot isn’t bad, I never said that, I just think he’s extremely overrated – at this point – because of the offensive production he’s generated.
Tigers3232
@Cardsfan these ther 28 teams u claim would love to have him all passed on him at least 7 times in the draft and some 8. Only 13 teams passed once on Gilbert…..
iH8PaperStraws
Nootbaar is just an average player on the field. But he is a very smart player. He knows how to too fool people who look at places like baseball savant and stat cast and use just the surface level metrics. Yes his numbers on the surface say he he should be above average. It you also have to watch him play and on the field metrics don’t align with the numbers. So dive deeper. You’ll discover his numbers are good because he only swings the bat in garage time situations. Otherwise he looks to walk unless it’s his perfect pitch he knows he can hit a double off of. Walks increase young on base % and don’t hurt any other metric. Compared to a single that will also increase on base, but it will lower your slug and potentially negatively affect other metrics like exit velo, launch angle, and so foreth. God fobid a strikeout. He knows all of this and he knows it’s going to get him paid more. Some one will over pay for him and get a forgettably average player.
John Phillips
Nootbar plus Helsley might get you Bryce Miller. Gilbert would cost substantially more starting with Jordan Walker as the headliner
DonOsbourne
Correct. A few things:
Derrick Goold is a bought and paid for member of the John Mozeliak propaganda machine. Nothing he says should be taken at face value.
I would love to get Logan Gilbert, but I’m not going to get too exited until it is reported that the two teams are in discussion about a trade. This seems like a PR campaign to prevent fans from storming the team offices and running Mo out of town on a barge.
I like the Marlins as trade partners better than the Mariners purely because Miami has turned into St. Louis south, they are in serious contention, and they also have the pitching we need.
Devlsh
Unfortunately, Skip Shumaker might be better at judging our talent than Mozeliak.
DonOsbourne
Exactly. I’m preparing myself to re-purchase my MLBTV package and watch some of my favorite current Cardinals help the Marlins the rest of the way and in the post season. Let’s go Fish!
asdfgh
Oh wow that’s funny considering he works for St. Louis post dispatch he does ridicule and have a lot of facts he provides. He’s definitely not a suck up, he was thought by the great and late Rick Hummel who also criticized the cardinals in many things.
But you are right about the marlins as they have interest in Ivan Herrara who by himself can get us one of their young pitchers. We aren’t going to give away anything here.
asdfgh
Too bad what you are thinking isn’t at all mentioned we aren’t tearing it down and not trading our MVP 1st baseman or Arenado.
Do you guys live in a reality.
Also let’s all remember the Mariners GM
Sometimes is addicted to making trades kind of what he’s known for. Just like any other GM he’s made bad and good moves.
Him and Mo aren’t reading any of these out of touch with reality pretend GM trades
Tigers3232
Mariners are still trying to contend. The notion that they’d want to trade a young controllable SP is laughable. And yes Mariners GM has been known for trading, but he has not been known to take away pitchers. Especially young cheap controllable pitchers.
DarkSide830
Haha, good one.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
He is way way out of their league, unless they trade Goldy.
SkipperLou
That’s what I was thinking
Lanidrac
I don’t know. A package of something like Carlson, Edman, and a mid-tier prospect might be enough to get him.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Tommy is too much for Gilbert. Awful proposal. Carlson and maybe a lower level guy is good.
dumper
Clearly, you have no idea who logan gilbert is. He is 9th in the AL in pitcher WAR. That is higher than Luis Castillo, Shohei Ohtani (as a pitcher), and Shane McClanahan. It should be a similarly valuable return the reds got for castillo last year, and probably more because he has more years of control.
amk1920
Carlson and low level prospect gets Cardinals hung up on
Little Stevie Janowsky
Clearly you don’t know who Tommy edman is. Last year he put up a 6.3 WAR. That’s more than Gilbert has put up in his 3 year career combined. And almost the same age. If the mariners want Tommy it’s gonna cost Kirby as well as Gilbert and possibly woo.
dumper
You think we would give up 3/5 of our rotation for a glove first middle infielder who last season had a .724 OPS? No thank you. Also, Edman has taken a major step back this year. But I am interested to hear, what do you think it would take for the mariners to get Donovan?
ayrbhoy
WHAT!? Logan Gilbert has the 2nd best WHIP in all of baseball this year. He has been a victim of bad luck- frankly he shouldve been an All-Star this year AND last year.
His 6’6” frame with a huge extension gives him one of the best fb’s in the League. However his continued success in this League has come from his work ethic and ability to add and master more pitches. His Slider and splitter give him the luxury of being filthy to both LH and RH’s. He has 4 pitches at his disposal and a constant drive to add more/be better. He is literally one of the best young SP’s in baseball. Throw in the fact that you have 4+yrs control – you see why this article is just ‘fluff!’ The Mariners are not trading Logan Gilbert. The Mariners would describe him in the same way as the Cardinals did for Goldy or Arenado. Untouchable…..The clue is in the word “like” – trading for a SP “like Logan Gilbert.”
vtadave
How’s Edman doing this year?
Little Stevie Janowsky
Edman has played injured and also has been used everywhere this year. He strives when he’s a second baseman that of which he’s arguably the best in the game. It’s not his fault he’s been used terribly this year.
rickoppelt
There’s no chance that even close to enough. SMH
dumper
The WAR for guys like Edman and Nootbaar are heavily influenced by their defense. The mariners do not need defense, they need offense. Last year, edman’s wrc+ was 108. Solid, but nobody would trade 3 controllable members of their starting rotation for a slightly above average bat.
Sportsmutt
That’s funny if you think he’s bringing back a Castillo return. Castillo couldn’t bring back a “Castillo” return. Neither would Kirby. Cease (different Dylan) might start to approach a Castillo return. Or Perez from Miami might get something in that range. E-Rod probably won’t. Bieber won’t. GlasNOW could possibly if he had more years of control and stayed healthy /hot until deadline. I just don’t think you’re going to see more than one (if that) Castillo like deal. And I really doubt it would be for Logan.
Maybe Waino could fetch a “Castillo” like haul, but that’d only be possible if Mo was with a different club. We can dream though.
Math&Baseball
Why are you comparing pitcher war, who plays 30 games a year, to position player war who played 150-162 games a year exactly?
So youre comparing Edmans 153 game WAR last year to Gilbert’s 74 games in his career?
Dumb comparison.
Little Stevie Janowsky
There is no such thing as not needing defense. It’s just as important as offense.
Sportsmutt
I like your response, but you didn’t need to go over the top to make your point. Thinking Tommy alone could bring back not just one, but two of those pitchers is an exaggeration that beats the comment you’re taking exception to. The truth has got to be somewhere in the vast middle ground between your two opinions.
iverbure
It would take about 4.5 Tommy edmans to get Logan Gilbert according to baseball trade values.
SkipperLou
You couldn’t even get one of those for Edman.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Baseball trade values is about as useful as making a trade in the baseball video game. Thanks for making me laugh bud. Tommy is worth 3 Logan Gilbert’s.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Then I guess the mariners will have to settle for not having one of the best second baseman in baseball and will instead be stuck with a bunch of back of the rotation arms. Oh but wait! They are young and can become aces! Oh give me a break.
dumper
Uh, no. I agree defense does have value, but when your offense is as inept as the mariners, offense is way more important.
dumper
Why wouldn’t he get at least somewhere near a castillo return? You just don’t like the thought of who you’d have to give up
JoeBrady
Why are you comparing pitcher war, who plays 30 games a year, to position player war who played 150-162 games a year exactly?
=========================
So your saying a hitter who has 4-5 ABs a game is as valuable as someone facing 30 ABs a game?
iverbure
Baseball trade values is a site which multiple front office executives use as a tool to check the value of their players.
It’s a much better resource than little Stevie’s delusional universe value system where every cardinals player is worth 4 or 5 times more than what everyone thinks.
Man are you in for some big time disappointment when you see the returns for every cardinals player they trade I can’t wait.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Absolutely no one uses baseball trade values except nerds that want to live in fantasy land. You’re better off using sim trades on the video game pal. Get real.
dumper
You seem like a guy who likes WAR. Logan Gilbert is 9th in the AL in war. I will break this down for you so you understand. This means there are 8 american league pitchers better than him, and the rest are worse. Now, the fact is, there are 15 teams in the al. So, unless my math is incorrect, it sounds to me like he would be an ace on 6 american league teams. So you saying “oh, nootbaar is worth 4 of him” is ridculous. Your team sucks, you are coping, you have no idea what you are talking about, so i have no idea why i am wasting my time with you. At least my team is above .500. Have a nice day.
mynameisjeff253
This guy knows ball. Good pitching like Gilbert who is controllable for like 4 more years is far more expensive than a hitter with control. it’s going to take a lot to pry Gilbert from Ms. Conversation starts with a Goldy, a Jordan Walker, or one of their main headline bats.
mynameisjeff253
@Little Stevie… that is absolutely rich. in no world are you getting Kirby, Gilbert, and Woo. You’re not getting Kirby or potentially Woo for Edman. he would be a nice addition to the trade conversation but it’s going to take even more to get just Gilbert. Edman is .8 WAR this year….
SodoMojo90
You forgot to mention that his team is 14 games under .500 as well.
bob9988 2
You understand trades are based on future production right?
iverbure
Nerds run baseball so by your logic everyone in baseball cares about baseball trade values site. Man you’re bad at this.
drfelix
LMAO
CujoMarlin
Isn’t this all the more reason for STL to have interest in him?
CujoMarlin
I think your “math” is indeed wrong.
Math&Baseball
Position player war is based on offense and defense.
Position player: 4-5 at bats a game and 8-9 innings of defense over the course of 162 games or however many they play.
Starting pitchers: effectiveness of pitching 5 6 7 innings and defense over the course of 30 games.
And no. Not saying that at all. I am saying comparing pitcher war to position player war is dumb.
kjt404
Thank you. Edman is so overrated. Career .265 hitter, WAR is mostly defense related, limited pop. He’s JP Crawford.
kjt404
There is when Seattle already has like 4 defense first players on roster now
ayrbhoy
Little Stevie- back of the rotation arms? I like your style of humor. The M’s rotation is literally one of THE best in MLB. Not because of their All Star Castillo. It’s because they have 3 frontline starters in Castillo, Kirby and Gilbert and two outstanding Rookies who are SP2-3 material. The only back of the rotation arm we have is a guy on the IL (from the Cardinals system- ) Marco Gonzales.
Fact is the majority of Cardinals fans won’t know a lot about Logan. You can’t tell me Cards fans are watching the M’s play games that start at 9:00pm – you have no idea how good Logan Gilbert is. Its fair to say that most Mariners fans also have limited knowledge of Edman and Walker- most of our knowledge comes from the same place Cards fans are learning about Logan- fangraphs, BR, Statcast and 5 min video recaps. We all know that you can’t know how good a SP is by watching recaps.
iH8PaperStraws
Nobody in baseball uses the trade value sites. They are a complete joke, designed by hacks with an elementary methodology. With that said Edman alone doesn’t even get you Marco Gonzalez back.
Lanidrac
Bad luck for three years in a row? By this point you simply have to accept that he’s not as good of a pitcher as some of his peripherals make him out to be and is only a mid-rotation starter.
Lanidrac
Interestingly, when you compare batters faced for an average starting pitcher every 5 games to plate appearances for a starting position player playing almost every game, the results come out close to even.
Relievers are different in that while they’re not as valuable as other players except the bench bats and maybe the DH, they also generally pitch in higher leverage situations, so it’s also not fair to judge them entirely by WAR or the number of batters they face. That’s why it’s common to prefer various other metrics like Leverage Index and why the WAR benchmarks for the Hall of Fame is so much lower for them.
Lanidrac
fWAR for pitchers is an absolute joke, and even bWAR for pitchers isn’t very good. FIP itself is only useful as a predictor. ERA is still one of the best metrics to actually analyze past performance, and it says that Gilbert is and always has been only a #3 starter.
SkipperLou
How many limp wrist Tommy’s is he worth now?
Tigers3232
@Little Steve this is a poor attempt at trolling right?? Kirby, Gilbert, and possibly more??…..
If you truly believe that you are absolutely oblivious to trade value of pitchers and position players as well as years of control. Maybe you should follow a WNBA page cus MLB seems to b more than u can reasonably grasp.
Tigers3232
They are Aces u buffoon. Do u even watch baseball or understand statistics??
DarkSide830
No. No it would not.
Lanidrac
Although, the Cardinals would much prefer to do it for just Carlson and the prospect.
kma
It would be more like Carlson, Donovan and Hence. It will hurt.
cards81
Lol you aren’t getting Hence…he is one of the top pitching prospects in baseball and the cardinals need pitching…
kma
Gilbert is like Jose Quintana was back in 2017. If not Hence, the pieces going back to Seattle will make you gulp. Doubt Mo can pull the trigger.
cards81
I’m not saying it won’t hurt but I think a shake up is coming…Flaherty or Monty could replace Gilbert for the year, Gorman would be a good bat to get…IDK if the mariners need a 3b but that is his original position…also Donovan is a stud…that would be an overpay for Gilbert right there…yea it would hurt but the Cardinals could move the Gold Glover Edman back to second and they have Winn coming up for SS…the cardinals are overloaded with position players so the only thing that would hurt is watching those players thrive for the mariners
asdfgh
Dude lay off whatever you are snorting buddy Gorman would be a straight up for a stud SP bc he’s a stud hitter and controllane. Herrara will get us a SP himself as good young catchers hard to find. We aren’t giving away that many of our IF and they sof have to be gets. Gilbert wouldn’t be a haul if we gave your Gorman either dudes. But cards81 you are constant looking like a moron. You and Little Stevie. I hope I never see either of you buffoons at Busch
cards81
Lol ok…keyboard tough guy…I didnt say I would make that trade although I understand the confusion… I was just giving an example of how easily the cardinals could make the trade…i think Gorman or Donovan could headline a trade for them for sure…but ok glad I could help you release your anger
Little Stevie Janowsky
@asdfgh I’ve already seen you walking around Busch you’re the 4’9 grown man walking around in a diaper last time I walked by you I almost passed out the smell was so bad!
iH8PaperStraws
Hence is like the 15th ranked pitching prospect and his body says he is a reliever.
cards81
Lol yea so he is a top pitching prospect…he is young and will rise…and his body says he is a reliever makes no sense at all..exactly what body type is that?
iH8PaperStraws
He’s listed at 6’1” 185. Way too small for a right handed starter maybe a 4/5 on a bad team.
belkiolle
Man. Pedro Martinez is going to be sad he could only be a reliever.
belkiolle
Zac Gallen probably ought to be moved to the bullpen really soon then. How about Kevin Gausman and Spencer Strider? Definitely #4 or #5 guys on bad teams there. Sonny Gray sure has made a long career of masquerading as a starter. Marcus Stroman certainly failed.
Literally 7 of the top 10 right handers in baseball right now are Hence’s size or smaller.
asdfgh
Aww Stevie ran out of gas in the comeback department. Stevie project much? And went for the crap material see where your head is at
BradBaar
You’re clueless, deGrom (speaking of clueless).
Paleobros
I agree he is out of their league;)
Captain-Judge99
I would think the Cardinals have expressed interest in a lot of starters out there.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
I am also “interested in” signing with the Rangers. I wonder why they haven’t signed me. Hmm…
OriolesMagic88
I want a good player, but you can’t have any of mine…do we have a deal?
asdfgh
Sir this isn’t a Wendy’s
mlb fan
How different things might look for the St. Louis Cardinals, had they ponyed up to acquire C Sean Murphy. When’s the last time this team made a big trade that actually helped the team?
Lanidrac
Since when can Sean Murphy pitch?
Contreras is finally heating up with his bat again, so all Murphy would’ve done was improve the defense behind the plate while sacrificing from the offense with whomever would’ve been traded for him.
It’s true that they would’ve then had a lot more money available to improve the pitching staff in the offseason, but in hindsight none of the free agents that were available that were in the same price range as Contreras would’ve helped much. Guys like Quintana, Rodon, etc. either wound up hurt or pitching badly this year. A couple of bullpen additions like Chapman would’ve helped, but there’s only so much that would’ve accomplished.
As to the last big trades that helped the team, those were the Quintana and Montgomery trades last year that helped them reach the playoffs again. If those aren’t big enough for you, then it was the Arenado trade 2 1/2 years ago.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Murphy is a massive offensive improvement over Contreras, on top of a massive defensive improvement. The improvement would have been night and day.
Lanidrac
While he’s having a career year with the bat, Contreras is still a really good hitter himself, and like I said, his improvements would’ve done nothing to help the team’s pitching problems.
mlb fan
Pretty much the same group of St. Louis pitchers(with Yadi at catcher) led them to the playoffs and what, 4 or 5 gold gloves, just within the last 12 months I believe. It’s a rather well known fact that many pitchers get better with better catchers. It’s not completely surprising that virtually ALL the St. Louis pitchers took a step backwards with Contreras at catcher.
Lanidrac
It’s not possible for a change in catcher to affect the pitching staff anywhere near to this degree. Better game calling probably could have helped a little, as it is suspicious that so many of them are underperforming their usual track records, but no catcher could’ve helped much with this dumpster fire of a pitching staff. It also wouldn’t explain why Hudson and Thompson were performing so poorly in AAA.
cards65
We all knew that the starting pitching needed help last off season and Cardinals did nothing to improve the staff after Mo told everyone he was going to spend.
mlb fan
“It’s not possible for a change at catcher”…Normally, I might agree, but when virtually your whole pitching staff takes a step backwards, I have to seek a larger causation. If it was just one pitcher, I might agree with you. That being said, Contreras is one of the worst framers, and gamecallers I’ve seen in a while.
cards81
Lanidrac you obviously didnt know how good Molina was…
cards81
MLB fan totally agree…Molina knew how to call games…this pitching staff was better than last years…Flaherty finally healthy and the cardinals had Monty from the beginning not after the trade deadline…this team was a better team than last years really…but the problem is lack of leadership
Tigers3232
@MLB, last year there was still a division heavy schedule. Wainwright had probably his last truly productive season. Father time gets everyone eventually. Mikolas was an obvious regression candidate. Had his 2nd really good season of career at age 33. Matz is just not good. Anyone being realistic saw that Cards were sue for pitching issues this season.
mlb fan
Seam Murphy is an MVP candidate my friend, whereas Contreras is not even really a catcher. Murphy is a better, hitter, catcher, blocker, pitch caller and framer than Contreras ever will be.
Lanidrac
Again, he doesn’t pitch, so he could hit 74 HRs and win the Platinum Glove and it still wouldn’t help much. The offense is already spectacular, and the defense is only bad when a few guys like Walker, Burleson, or yes, Contreras, play the field
BTW, Murphy is not a better thrower than Contreras, so he’s entirely a better player.
Cardsfan21
Die hard Cards fan here, obviously. Anyone questioning how bad we absolutely BLEW it with Contreras over Murphy is living in an adorable state of denial.
Lanidrac
…*NOT* entirely a better player.
Anyway, the point is that the offense and the defense are not why the Cardinals are playing so poorly. It’s almost all on the pitching.
Cardsfan21
No, absolutely entirely a better player. And with 17.k to put towards pitching. We whiffed miserably here.
Cardsfan21
17.5 mil. Sorry for typo
cards81
Lol so Murphy was an All star and is a top 5 MVP candidate but Contreras is just as good…gotcha lol
Lanidrac
Like I said, he’s NOT a better thrower, so there is at least one area he doesn’t beat out Contreras.
Meanwhile, I already pointed out that the 17.5K that would’ve theoretically been cleared up wouldn’t have helped much, as anyone we could’ve gotten in free agency last offseason with that money is either hurt, also pitching badly, or a reliever who wouldn’t have moved the needle much on his own.
Yes, that’s with the benefit of hindsight, but so too is the fact that so many of the pitchers the Cardinals do have have strangely under-performed this year. If guys like Wainwright, Matz, Woodford, Liberatore, Gallegos, Pallante, Cabrera, etc. had actually pitched as expected, the Cardinals would probably be in first place right now.
TheOtherMikeD
2021. Arenado.
King of Cards
And before that Goldschmidt.
iverbure
If your team needs to make a big trade to help the team every year they probably aren’t good enough to win anyway. Big trades crush organizational depth. Organizational depth ei farm system is how you build a sustainable winner. Need cheap young quality players constantly joining the team year in year out.
belkiolle
And the Cardinals are 2nd in baseball the last ten years for WAR by drafted players.
CardsFan77
Ummmmmm. Goldy, arenado come to mind…
cards81
Arenado and Goldy…?
Math&Baseball
Paul Goldschmidt and Nolan Arrenando. Idk how long ago that was.
belkiolle
Seriously? Arenado? Goldschmidt?
The package the A’s got from the Braves is something like Winn, Herrera, Hence, Nootbaar, and Donovan from the Cardinals system. It’s not hard to see why they just spent cash instead.
iH8PaperStraws
The lack of deals for players like Murphy illustrate Mo simply handed Arenado instead of pulling off orchestrating an amazing deal. It’s takes a huge package for Murphy but just Austin Gomber and a throw in catcher for not only Arenado but also a ton of money to pay him. Mozaliak didn’t do anything other then answer the phone and say yes. Arenado publicly forced his way out of Colorado and for the reasons illustrated below, Saint Louis was the only option. Yes he was the man in charge who’s name is on the deal, for this trade he’s the equivalent to being the guy who’s name is on a project but was never needed to contribute because the rest of the team had it covered before it began.
belkiolle
Elehuris Montero was in the Arenado deal too.
iH8PaperStraws
Great his mid 80s OPS+ over two partial seasons makes it a totally fair deal. He was ranked once in a top 100 prospect list at 81 by baseball America pre-2019, two years before the trade and never again. His minor league numbers are of the page considering he played in the PCL. Again, Montero and Gomber is not a hard package to beat for Arenado plus a third of his remaining salary if any one else outside of the division had a small interest in him.
Riontyler
Matt Holiday…Goldy…Monty. thats just taking 30 seconds to think about your question.
iH8PaperStraws
Holiday was TLR. The Montgomery deal happened because the Yankees had a deal in place to get Pablo Lopez from the Marlins and needed to open up a rotation spot. So they made the deal for Bader, then the Lopez deal fell apart but the Bader deal was already turned in. The Montgomery deal would have never happened if the Lopez deal got cancelled sooner.
King of Cards
This was my original idea from last week. Glad to see they are listening to me.
Seriously I think the Mariners and Cardinals do match up well. Gorman for Gilbert would be fun. Liberatore is Gormans buddy you could probably have him too.
If not that deal then a different deal for Bryce Miller. I like Woo but he’s from the West Coast I think he might be more comfortable in Seattle. Miller is from Texas we like good ole Texas boys in St Louis.
Lanidrac
Gorman is too much. Aside from Walker, he’s their best young hitter and has two extra years of team control compared to Gilbert.
King of Cards
The part about team control is false check again. And Gorman is going to be a super 2 so it’s 1 extra year of team control but an expensive one.
I love Gorman. But the team needs an ace and the team also has plenty of guys to play 2b if Gorman wasn’t around.
Little Stevie Janowsky
@king of cards you make cardinal fans look bad with your awful trade proposals. Go watch the cubs
BradBaar
Gorman is LH POWER and the Cards need the balance between all the RH power bats. He’s too valuable to the future to ship off now.
Lanidrac
Okay, one relatively expensive extra year of team control, but that’s still significant value that would require at least an extra prospect in return.
King of Cards
Brad I agree. But if thats the difference between us getting a potential ace or not I do the deal. Can’t win with the pitching we have now.
Sportsmutt
Thank you. I have no problem moving Gorms into the untouchable category. If It weren’t for the sliver of a chance that Noot could influence Sho, I would definitely have him as available (before Gorms and Donnie anyway).
revolver
He’s a k machine butcher who’s only value is as a dh!
fourth_dimension
Right. This comment section, along with the CT Forum listens to everything you say Joel. Good one.
King of Cards
That’s so weird that a stranger knows my first name.
Who are you on Cardstalk?
This was my original trade idea last week I was sharing it right here on this site. That’s a fact Jack.
iverbure
If you cloned Gorman and they both have the same amount of control they combined still wouldn’t be enough to get Gilbert.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Hilarious joke bud. Gorman is worth Gilbert plus a decent prospect.
iverbure
No he’s not. No matter how many times you said it. You’re just wrong. You’re not going to find a single person on the internet that will agree with you. Not one that isn’t completely delusional
Little Stevie Janowsky
I think the voices in your head might be making you say these things. You are a biased mariners fan that has no realistic value of your players. Go rub your grandmas feet buddy
cards65
Gorman will be a consistent 30 to 40 homerun a year guy i think he would be plenty good for Gilbert.
iverbure
I’m not a mariners fan.
dumper
I know I said I was done, but the hypocrisy of this statement is just atrocious. Who is the one who just said nootbaar is worth 4 gilberts?
stanton100
Why?
Slothcliff Hokum
NO, Dipoto… just NO.
kma
I wouldn’t worry. This is just Goold throwing names out that he’d like to see on the Cards.
SI
I am not interested in moving Gilbert for what they are suggesting in this write up.
King of Cards
What about for Gorman?
Gorman is exciting. As a Cardinal fan there is almost no way I would even entertain the idea of trading for Gorman except that we have too many guys who can play 2b and 3b. Donovan and Gorman is a bit redundant.
He could be your cleanup hitter for the next 5 years and maybe more.
Jm207* 2
Or he could strike out at a 32 percent rate and be figured out by the league line last year. He got off to a hot start last year then was so bad he ended up in the minors.
JoeBrady
Jm207* 23 mins ago
Or he could strike out at a 32 percent rate
==========================
202 career Ks in 554 ABs is concerning.
revolver
Gorman will be lucky to have the career of Moustakas. I’d give him about a 17% chance.
Sportsmutt
Good. I’m not interested in giving up a lot of names in this write up for Logan, (the “not a strike-out” pitcher).
Lanidrac
Unless it’s absolutely necessary, I don’t see why the Cardinals would trade Helsley. He’s their best reliever, or he will be once again when he returns from the IL pretty soon. Also, according to Baseball-Reference, he’s over 3 years away from free agency, not just 2 like this article claims.
fourth_dimension
The article is correct. He has the rest of this season, plus two additional ARB years left.
Lanidrac
I just checked Cot’s Baseball Contracts, as well. He only has just over 3 years of service time right now, so he won’t be a free agent for over 3 more years until AFTER the 2026 season. Yes, he qualified for arbitration this year, but that was as a Super Two player. He has 4 total years of arbitration, including 3 more after this year.
fourth_dimension
fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/cardinals
Check your work. Only three ARB years. Standard. No Super two involved.
Lanidrac
Ah, I get it. The service times are listed for the BEGINNING of this season. Okay, that’s my mistake.
Still, the Cardinals have little reason to trade their best reliever who is still under team control for over two more years. It doesn’t help much to improve the pitching staff in one area if you’re going to downgrade about as much in another area.
fourth_dimension
The article is correct. Helsley is in ARB1 right now. He has two seasons left of ARB. Will be a FA in 2026.
Jake Biggar
“Cardinals interested in Logan Gilbert… along with 28 other teams”
Milwaukee-2208
And I’m interested in Margot Robbie…doesn’t mean its going to happen
Sportsmutt
Stay away from my girl. I just got her to stop playing Jokers girl, and now she’s over-corrected to Ken. I’m right here Margot!
kma
She needs that Barbie to be a hit or else she will be box office poison.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Carlson for Gilbert 1 for 1 swap
Jm207* 2
Lol not even close to enough. Nobody wants Carlson.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Carlson would make the mariners significantly better.
vtadave
“Significantly”? Are you his agent? Carlson is mid at best.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Teoscar Hernandez is dog water and can’t play defense. Carlson if one of the best defensive outfielders in the game the improvement would be night and day.
JoeBrady
You mentioned a fair amount of Cardinal players that you think are really, really good, but they don’t win very much.
FWIW, I have Gorman on several teams, and I am still waiting for that streak of greatness.
Lanidrac
You don’t think teams would find an above-average hitter who switch-hits, plays above-average defense in the OF including CF, and won’t be a free agent for over three years to be a useful player?
iH8PaperStraws
Carlson is not an above average hitter. and he’s flat out bad from the left side.
King of Cards
Pleases stop. You are making Cardinal fans look bad.
Little Stevie Janowsky
@king of cards Get lost troll.
iverbure
Carlson, Gorman and edman yes all 3 would not get you Gilbert. So get back to reality because your delusional universe isn’t real life.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Edman is worth literally your entire rotation bud and if you’re too biased to see that you should go watch soccer. Gorman is worth Gilbert plus another prospect. Gilbert = younger mikolas good guy at the back end of a rotation nothing more.
Sportsmutt
I think you’re on the right track though. Think something like Carlson, Tommy and Hicks. Burls hasn’t done much, but he’s a lefty, great aaa numbers, and history has shown former Card outfielders are a hot commodity. So maybe he makes it in there. Something around this level feels beneficial to both teams. If Mariners start talking about Donnie or Gorms then you can forget about Hicks or packages of more than two.
cards65
Wow this Gilbert must be the next Nolan Ryan!
Cards78
This not an accurate statement. It’s just not correct. That list of players would absolutely get Logan. I’m not sure you are really connected to the game with this type of response. I think it’s an overpay actually by a wide margin.
iverbure
It would not even come close. How do you come up with your player evaluations? Are you using a site or do you just make them up based on what you perceive the value of the players are your favourite team you follow?
Little Stevie Janowsky
@cards78 just ignore @iverbure he’s a troll looking for attention. Everything he says is ridiculous
Cardsfan21
Iverbure, I’d love some of whatever you are smoking, bud.
Cardsfan21
Gorman is not nearly worth Gilbert on a one to one trade. That the two of you are arguing opposite sides of nonsense makes my day.
iverbure
I live in reality. Not in an alternative universe where every cardinals player is worth every other teams best players.
revolver
Absolutely absurd.
Hemlock
Hello, Earth. Yes, we would like your Moon. Can we interest you in any of this trash we have accumulated?
No? Well, you go ahead and keep it as a token of our gratitude!
Lanidrac
What trash? The Cardinals have a lot of good position players, and it’s not like Gilbert is more than a mid-rotation starter in the first place.
King of Cards
Gilbert is more than a mid rotation starter.
Why can’t people look at things with open eyes instead of a bias? Come on guys. Both sides. Mariners fans act as if Gilbert is Cy Young. And then there is you here doing this.
Lanidrac
A .career 3.75 ERA with a 3.66 ERA so far this year is pretty close to the very definition of a mid-rotation starter.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Exactly. Gilbert is basically a younger mikolas. That’s not worth giving up a top young guy for. Rather just wait until free agency. Carlson is the best that should be offered for Gilbert.
Hemlock
Come on guys, are jokes really that difficult to understand?
The planet Earth cannot give up its moon. Without the moon, life as we know it is over. It doesn’t matter what you offer—that deal is a non-starter.
Seattle isn’t punting 2023. And they are not trading Logan Gilbert. Seattle has 4 good starters right now. Why would they cut off one of their legs/arms and create an area of need on their team for whatever the Cardinals have to offer?
I appreciate seeing a rumor but this one has no basis.
Lanidrac
No, Mikolas has pitched significant better since returning to the U.S. when he’s been healthy. He’s a true #2 at worst, while Gilbert is more of a #3.
I agree with you about Carlson being a close match in value, though.
Lanidrac
Oh, if that’s what you meant, then I agree. Sorry, it was too vague of a metaphor. You could always take Montgomery or Flaherty as part of the return package, though.
Hemlock
It’s okay, Lanidrac. My apologies on the mixup.
I think that Gilbert has much more value to his team than to other teams. So teams are never going to give up what Seattle would need to replace him.
revolver
Only in cardinalandia is Mikolas considered a mid rotation piece.
Sportsmutt
Yeah. Just a slight exaggeration suggesting Logan can move oceans’. Does that make Kirby the Sun?
momTurphy
I’m interested in my team getting Juan Soto, Shohei Ohtani, and the Greatest Stroman…but I also don’t want to give up any good players.
Sportsmutt
Good contribution. Gilbert is definitely on that level.
Hemlock
Play MLB The Show, start up a new franchise, and make sure to enable force trades.
CardsFan57
The priority needs to be moving the rental players for St. Louis. Everything else can wait for the off season unless some desperate contender makes an offer too good to refuse. I’m more interested in seeing MLB ready or very near ready pitching prospects while supplementing with free agent pitchers.
cards65
Me too but when was the last time Mo did that?
Fred Park
Mariners trade Gilbert away?
In your dreams, playboy.
Sportsmutt
Apparently it’s not. Or we wouldn’t have the sustained interest to generate the article written by Mr Goold. So get used to it. The Mariners and other clubs might not see eye to eye with you on what’s reality and dreams.
bamck
To get Gilbert, they would need to give up a pretty significant player. Maybe not Walker, but I think at least Noothbar. It would definitely take more than Donovan and probably more than Gorman as well.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Nootbaar is worth significantly more than Gilbert. If Noot is included you would see a package of Gilbert, miller and woo heading back to cardinals. Donovan is also too much for Gilbert. Gorman for Gilbert is close, but a prospect would be headed back to cardinals.
King of Cards
Stevie be quiet. Please.
OriolesMagic88
As a fan of neither the Cardinals or Mariners, I think you need to take off the red colored glasses.
JoeBrady
I think you need to take off the red colored glasses.
===========================
My guess is that he is just trolling. OTOH, there is no shortage of fans that think their team walks on water, records not withstanding.
vtadave
Get lost troll.
cardsfan74
Nootbar sucks. Why does everyone think he’s some hall of fame player. I don’t get it.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Noot has the potential to be a top 5 player in baseball if he’s healthy. He’s that good. A 5 tool player.
UsmcCardsnBars
I keep saying that’s why we have to trade this guy. He’s listed as untouchable but I don’t see him being more than a 110 wrc corner outfielder. I cringe every time I see the lineup and he’s in CF batting third. Need to sell high on this imaginary ceiling and trick someone into a #2 starter before everyone else realizes he’s just average, but with a cool name, a couple years from now
Lanidrac
Nootbaar is good, certainly an above-average player, but he’s not THAT good. He’s only a little above-average with the bat, and while he’s a strong defender at all 3 OF positions, he’s probably not going to win a Gold Glove anytime soon. He’ll likely still develop a little more, but it’s doubtful that he’ll ever be an All-Star let alone a superstar.
Still the value he does have as a cheap, above-average player with an extra year of control probably exceeds that of Gilbert.
This one belongs to the Reds
Paul Householder was a five tool player too. So was Billy Beane. Clint Hurdle also at one time.
Doesn’t mean they will produce long term.
revolver
It’s the cardinal way. BFIB don’t cha know?
revolver
Oh you sweet summer child.
CardsFan57
I’d be opposed to trading Gorman at all. He’s 23 and still improving with the bat and at second base. I still believe he has all-star potential as a solid defensive middle infielder with a good bat. Trading Gorman would be the next Alcantra or Arozarena move as far as I’m concerned.
Lanidrac
I’d give him up in the right deal, but otherwise I agree.
Sportsmutt
That’s a little closer to what I think, but I don’t value Noot as better alone than Donovan paired up with someone. Unless that someone is Mo, then I pull the trigger immediately.
Rsox
If the Mariners had a healthy Robbie Ray then maybe consider trading a starter to fill other needs. I don’t see DiPoto trading a controllable young arm for anything the Cardinals have unless they are getting a lot of whatever the Cards have to offer
King of Cards
What if the Mariners got back Flaherty or Montgomery?
iverbure
The same reasons you want to trade those guys ( free agent to be) are the same reasons why the Mariners wouldn’t want them if they’re trading away a controllable starter.
Devlsh
Makes some sense.
Fans of all teams need to reassess the value they place on rental players, Unless you’re talking an aircraft carrier/difference maker, guys like Flaherty, O’Neill, Hicks, etc. are not going to get young yet proven stars in return, especially starting pitching. Fans who think teams are lining up to hand us MLB ready starting pitching for two months of a complementary player are in for a rude awakening.
I’d be open to trading virtually anyone on the roster. Unless this team thinks they can assemble a quality rotation virtually from scratch between now and next year, having Goldschmidt won’t help them. Does any long term Cards fan believe they’re going to go out on the free agent market and outbid everyone else to sign TWO upper tier starting pitchers to massive contracts? They haven’t done it before and if they wanted to, they would have started with Montgomery. As is, signing two guys who put up numbers LIKE Montgomery and Flaherty have this year is going to cost a pretty penny and we’ve seen that wasn’t enough to compete in 2023.
The time to trade for SP was last year, when guys like O’Neill, Noot, Moises Gomez, Yepez, etc. were at their peak value (or slightly less in Tyler’s case). Now, the “young” players are a year older and none of them, with the exception of Gorman and maybe Donovan, have improved their standing.
Lanidrac
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. That’s what they should’ve done last offseason in retrospect, but nobody could’ve expected that so many of the pitchers would regress so badly.
Anyway, it shouldn’t be as hard as you think to rebuild the pitching staff to compete again next year with the right moves, and that starts with this upcoming trade deadline.
iverbure
Devlsh it’s like you’ve payed attention to baseball the last few days and no what you’re talking about.
I agree it most likely what’s going to happen with the cards. Even Goldschmidt isn’t worth what many cards fans think. Firstly he’s making a ton of money. So right away that takes out most teams not to mention he probably has a no trade.
Devlsh
Except, it WASN’T hindsight. Everyone knew we needed starting pitching, AND everyone knew we had a glut of OFs and prospects. Instead, we signed a flawed catcher and hoped for the best..
I sincerely hope you’re right in thinking it won’t be hard to rebuild the pitching staff, but if it were that easy, everyone would have a good pitching staff. Most teams with good pitching have developed a large chunk of it themselves (Brewers, Marlins, Braves, Dodgers, Rays, etc).
As of season’s end, the Cardinals are starting with Miles Mikolas, Steven Matz, Dakota Hudson, Matthew Liberatore… and three of THOSE guys shouldn’t be in a contending team’s rotation.
DonOsbourne
Agreed on every thing you said. Well put Devlish!
King of Cards
Dev
I suggested trading rentals PLUS a controllable player like Gorman or Donovan.
Good gosh folks. 10 years ago people didn’t know how to value prospects. Now it’s a complete 180 where people think prospects and team control are all that matters.
Devlsh
I’m on board. It’s going to take a skilled hand though to combine the rentals and controllables and come out of it with at least one solid starting pitcher (perferable two) for next year and perhaps some other assets.
What we need is the Mo that constructed the creative Arenado deal, but most of his other deals show a lack of imagination or appreciation of the “cards’ he’s holding.
iH8PaperStraws
But it was a creative deal, he was gifted Arenado. The Yankees were happy with Donaldson, the Red Sox had Devers, dodgers:Turner, Astros:Bergman, Cubs:Bryant and rebuilding. Angels:Rendon, Phillies: excited about Bohm, Braves: Riley, Padres: Machado. Point being the clubs that’s would’ve willing to take on his contract we’re already set and happy with the third baseman. He wasn’t wanted by teams going through rebuilds and small market teams couldn’t take on the contract. So that would leave the Mets, Blue Jays, Giants and Cardinals. He wasn’t being trade in the division. So just Mets, Blue Jays and Cardinals. He publicly forced his way out of Colorado. You can’t honestly if there was any other team interested in they couldn’t have gotten a better deal then receiving Austin Gomber in return for Arenado plus sending cash. If you believe that I have some water front property on the Sun to sell you. Yes, Mo was the POBO for a trade that Arenado pretty much constructed. The Goldschmidt trade was pretty much the same situation, different reason for getting out of Arizona, but the usual suspect teams were already set at the position.
iH8PaperStraws
*wasnt a creative deal
Sportsmutt
I was thinking of the pitching sweetener to be Hicks.
Rsox
That might have to be Flaherty AND Montgomery and at least one other player
revolver
Lmfao? As a sweetener?
Troy Percival's iPad
If the Cardinals aren’t going to let Walker and Gorman play their natural positions, then they need to trade them instead of trying to squeeze them into the line-up out-of-position. There’s no room for DeJong either, so trade those 3 and call it a day
Lanidrac
Gorman has improved enough at 2B that his bat is worth keeping him there. He could still be moved in the right deal, though.
Meanwhile, Walker’s potential with the bat is so good that the Cardinals need to keep him even if he can’t be anything more than their primary DH who only occasionally plays the grass and backs up at 3B.
Four4fore
Walker will be their 1B one day.
Cards78
DeJong I agree with trading. The others need to stay since they are probably going to become very very good players. I don’t think you trade them because they are working their way into a lineup.
revolver
WTF are you going to get for De jong? Holy hell, cardinal fans are delusional.
Jrnomo100
Cards need pitching have hitters to trade let’s see if moz can get it done
zoinksscoob91 2
Unless Dipoto has another deal to get a #2/#3 controllable pitcher on the burner, dealing Gilbert makes no sense for the M’s. Trading Bryce Miller or Bryan Woo for a hitter is far more likely, as either is far more replaceable than Gilbert.
Lanidrac
I will agree with this, although as someone else pointed out they could take either Montgomery or Flaherty as part of the return package.
iverbure
Zoink said controllable starter…
Lanidrac
They don’t need a controllable starter when they just need to improve their offense without sacrificing their pitching depth for this year. They can always sign a free agent in the offseason.
iverbure
Rolls eyes. Teams don’t give up controlllable starters and replace them with expensive free agent ones. The mariners aren’t going to make a move like that and neither is any other team unless they’re a World Series contender.
King of Cards
Bure you are as bad as Stevie. You and him are on each end of the spectrum.
iverbure
Good one. I’m using a site which many mlb executives use to value their players to tell that buffoon he’s not even in the realm of a fair trade, Stevie is using his peanut brain with his own player evaluations made up his delusional mind.
The mariners aren’t giving up a controllable starter and then going to pay more in free agency for a starter in the offseason not team is going to do that it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever and if you think it does you have zero idea on how teams are built and constructed or how teams value control. Teams don’t just make trades to make trades.
iverbure
Sorry to burst your bubble on some of the cards players. When you see the lacklustre return the cards get at the deadline don’t complain and say the gm sucks just admit you’re own evaluations were way off, I will be there to tell you I told you so.
Little Stevie Janowsky
@iverbure this is hilarious @king of cards is a cubs fan and even he can’t handle your ludicrousness. You literally have never watched baseball a day in your life have you?
iverbure
I can’t wait for the deadline you’re going to be so disappointed it’s going to be hilarious.
Lanidrac
That’s why he would only be PART of the trade package. They’d also get the offensive upgrade they want with someone like O’Neill or DeJong and/or a prospect in the deal.
Meanwhile, the Mariners certainly ARE a World Series contender, since any playoff contender is also a World Series contender with how MLB’s playoffs work, and of course flags fly forever.
msqboxer
If I’m Seattle’s GM if I don’t hear Goldy, Arenado or Gorman’s name come out of the Cards GM’s mouth in the first sentence, I’m hanging up. No one overvalues their other position players more than the Cardinals do. You’ll see Cardinal fans thinking Carlson or Edman and some scrub is overpaying for Gilbert..
Little Stevie Janowsky
Edman had a 6.3 WAR last year more than Gilberts entire 3 year career. He’s worth a LOT more than Gilbert buddy.
kma
No, he’s not. It’s about future value, money owed and years of control.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Tommy will have far more future value and they are basically equal in the rest.
revolver
Point proven
Jrnomo100
Miller or woo would help the cards.
Danelboones
“Match up well”
You can’t be serious?
Gilbert, Miller, Woo and Kirby are ALL showing ace potential.
Worst article I’ve read on MLBTR to date. Nothings for potential face of the franchise pitchers.
You can have Ray.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Just because they have one good game against a bad team doesn’t make them an ace. More than likely they will all be back end guys at best.
Sportsmutt
Ok. Give us a minute to bring back Reyes, then we’ll work out a trade for him, Jack, Hicks, and Dakota. Sure things are sure things right? It might take a little longer to track down Shelby Miller but I’m betting you want him and Carlos Martinez too.
scottaz
I thought it was considered tampering if a GM specifically named a player on another team in a possible trade?
twisted laces
This should have been done over the past off-season.
kma
Jerry will send you Marco and cash for Tyler.
King of Cards
Fair trade but we don’t need more back end rotation types. But trade does make sense.
FlahertyFour
Cant wait for everyone thats fans of both teams to say how their respective player is light years better than the other teams and its an insulting offer.
Id imagine the Mariners would try to pry Walker to which the Cards would probably say no. I could realistically see Gorman and Nootbaar going since I doubt Carlson/Oneill get anywhere close.
They also would probably try Wynn but I hope the Cards dont move him. Id rather they ship edman or donovan. Wed also happily take Wonger back for the nostalgia lol
Emilia
Sadly, Moz doesn’t know how to make a good deal for Stl. The Marlins, et al are still laughing.
cards81
And the cardinals are laughing at Arizona and the Rockies…some things don’t work out
Armaments216
Kind of hard to see the Cardinals laughing at the Diamondbacks right now.
cardsfan74
What’s the fascination with Nootbaar? I don’t get it. He’s nothing special. If his name was Joe Smith no one would care.
Little Stevie Janowsky
You must be watching the games with your eyes closed bud
iH8PaperStraws
I’ve seen every MLB game Nootbaar has played. He’s nothing special. Nootbaar, Carlson, Edman, Piscotty, Hazelbaker, Thomas, Bader, DeLuzio. Use whatever name you want, they are all the same below average weak hitter with decent speed and solid defense. In Saint Louis they are put on hall of fame shelves, while in any other city no one in Saint Louis knows who they are. They are the definition of replacement level players, available in 80% of ten team fantasy baseball leagues.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Again another person that needs to stick to watching soccer. Yikes
Troy Percival's iPad
He forgot how to hit for power this year, too. If it was last year, I’d take him in Boston (in this scenario, the Sox have trade-able pitching that the Cardinals want), but not anymore
Little Stevie Janowsky
He’s still crushing the ball. Has been very unlucky this year.
dankyank
The Cardinals would be wise not to make this trade. The Mariners will want multiple prospects and the Cardinals system is pitching heavy. Depleting the future rotation for a single starter is a bad idea.
Devlsh
Pitching heavy? Aside from Hence, Graceffo and McGreevy, I don’t see anyone likely to fit in this rotation, and I suspect Hence is headed for the bullpen before all is said and done.
cards81
Hence is not headed for the bullpen…I don’t know how you came to that conclusion?
iH8PaperStraws
Agreed. Hence is too small to a right handed starter. He’s a high leverage reliever at best. Even if he added in weight, a 6’1” listing isn’t tall enough. Because of the arm angle it can be for lefties, but not for righties.
belkiolle
7 of the top 10 RH starters in baseball this year are 6’1 or shorter.
scottaz
Dbacks will trade Gilbert for either Walker or Gorman or both!
King of Cards
I think Gilbert for Gorman makes sense.
Personally I would rather trade Walker. But where does Walker play in Seattle? DH probably.
revolver
He’s unplayable anywhere but DH.
msqboxer
Cards aren’t trading minor leaguers or Gorman/Walker. The front office is still trying to validate that trading Arozarena, Garcia, Gallen and Alcantra were shrewd moves. In the GM world there is a saying “Don’t be like Mo”.
kma
Way to go, Mo!
Rantucky
Dodgers are shopping for pitching so the Cards can’t outbid them if they wanted. Cards will do their normal garbage bin deals.
Four4fore
Trading rentals will get you prospects. If you want big leaguers you will have to include one of Edman or Donovan and take Wong and his contract back.
iverbure
Exactly. Unless you’ve got a difference maker rental and a contender has a big need but generally nowadays contenders don’t want to lose anyone off the roster.
Cardinals and orioles might line up. Orioles might have enough farm that they could upgrade their rotation with 2 cardinal rental Starters and afford the prospects. Orioles ought to be looking at controllable starters though.
Four4fore
Woo or Hancock maybe but they won’t give up enough for Gilbert. I do think Baltimore is the better trade partner also.
King of Cards
The Orioles don’t have a lot of what the Cardinals need. The Cardinals need pitching and the Orioles don’t have that.
Four4fore
Orioles would benefit from rentals more and have quantity as opposed to high quality pitching talent.
Deleted Userr
Ya know who else is interested in Logan Gilbert? The Mariners!
Devlsh
The Stl organization has one (mammoth) flaw. They’ve shown they can’t accurately value/judge what they have when it comes to players once they reach AAA and through their first couple years in the big leagues. They can’t decide who to hold onto and when they decide to move a player, they don’t know what he’s worth. They seem unable to discern the difference between Randy Arozarena, Adolis Garcia, Lane Thomas, Tommy Pham, Luke Voit, Moises Gomez, Tyler O’Neill, Lars Nootbaar, Juan Yepez, Dylan Carlson, and Harrison Bader. With that in mind, I can’t see how they’re going to successfully trade free agents to be for prospects in that same developmental stage.
King of Cards
When your team has all those outfielders at your disposal then you can tell me how great they are at deciding which ones to keep and who to trade away.
Who is your team?
iverbure
Why is one’s team’s important at all?
seaver41
what a useless article….all that blah blah blah about one sided interest in a trade. It takes two to tango – what would Seattle even want from the rest of that losing roster?
King of Cards
The Mariners need help at 3b and 2b. The Cardinals have Donovan and Gorman and both could potentially be available in a deal. The 2 teams match up well.
CJ81
think sonething like gorman, liberatore, yepez, and maybe flaherty too with some money from cardinals would get gilbert? flaherty involved since mariners can contend this year.
belkiolle
Three controllable players and a rental on a cheap arb3 contract for one controllable player and you think the Cardinals should send the Mariners cash too? Wow.
TheGr8One
Let me save you all time read my post not the article
Seattle isn’t trading Logan Gilbert. I’m interested in Salma Hayek, like the Cards and Gilbert I won’t be acquiring her either.
kma
Yes, Salma was acquired by a billionaire.
aTouchOfSarcasm
Mo had better be careful about trading off some of the guys mentioned before we see who is really going to cut it and who isn’t….One more Arozarena or Garcia move and he’ll be hanging from the Mckinley Bridge, and that thing can’t take much more….
mcmulljr
Cardinals aren’t willing to move thebo ly pieces worth grading Gilbert for…..
JerseyShoreScore
The Cardinals remind me of most owners in my fantasy baseball leagues…
They want one of my best players, “Logan Gilbert,” but they just want to trade me their spare parts, players they are going to cut anyway, and hope I’ll give them a good player.
NineChampionships
The Cardinals fans are not handling their last-place season very well. In what world is Edman or Nootbar more valuable than Gilbert, LMAO.
jmaa
Birds need to aim higher than Gilbert. No faith in Mo.
Four4fore
Only a few delusional ones believe that. Or trolls looking for a rise.
Little Stevie Janowsky
You’re still mad the cards wouldn’t give up Noot and you got absolutely nothing for Murphy? What an absolute embarrassment the athletics and the entire city of Oakland are!
Four4fore
See what I mean?
NineChampionships
Yeah and this could be the beginning of an ugly stretch for them. With their farm system being emptied out of position players, theres no help on the way if they can’t get out of the cellar with the current group. Yikes.
Four4fore
Talent is there, if a pitching rebuild is managed correctly this year could be a one off.
Motor City Beach Bum
Longest argument ever! Pitching costs St Louis fans, so you either draft and develop your own, which means waiting a couple years on Hjerpe, Graceffo, Hence and McGreevy or you trade with other teams.
Mize and Lange for Gorman and Yepez as the frame work for a deal. Or does the trade calculator HAL2000 say Yepez is worth 5 Mizes now too 😉
Devlsh
Yikes, is this the 2021 version of Mize or the one who hasn’t started a game in 15 months? That’s a hard pass unless you accidentally typed Gorman when you meant to type Taylor Motter.
BradBaar
You’re right, but there’s one more solution and that’s Free Agency. Cards have $60M available after this season so they can sign a couple good starters. Hopefully, they’ll trade for one or two #2’s before the deadline.
jmaa
If the cards are looking to give up that level of talent they need to aim higher than Gilbert. I have no faith in Mo!
Little Stevie Janowsky
Exactly Gilbert is as mediocre as it gets. They need a front line guy
myaccount2
Mediocre? I just laughed out loud.
revolver
Lol. Typical cards fan , wildly overestimating the value of their players.
NineChampionships
And vastly underestimating the value of other team’s players. Calling Logan Gilbert mid is embarrassing.
BigRedMachine
The Mariners ARE NOT Trading Logan Gilbert. Jerry Dipoto loves young contract controllable pitchers and in Logan’s last two outings he threw a complete game shutout against the Giants and then a seven inning outing against the Astros where he gave up just one run. At his age, I would assume we have not seen the best of him as of yet. He is key to the Mariners future.
Fred Park
Whew, at last a comment worth reading.
You are absolutely right, BigRedMachine.
touch_the_floor
They are NOT going to trade Gilbert! They just called up Tommy Malone to spot start bc they do not have 5 healthy starters. Plus Woo is apparently on an innings limit. That would be punting on 2023.
It’s just not happening.
myaccount2
It’s great that they’re interested in Gilbert but the M’s aren’t trading him.
King of Cards
This comment section was kind of ruined by little Stevie and Bure. Good job guys.
Little Stevie Janowsky
Nurse still hasn’t changed your diaper yet little buddy?
iverbure
This comment section is ruined by people too stupid to know they’re stupid. I’d bet you any amount of money that if we asked any baseball executive who’s player evaluations were closer mine which aren’t even mine I just use BTV as a reference or you two delusional clowns the baseball people wouldn’t pick either one of your evaluations.
You guys are the type of people who call into radio shows with your ridiculous trade proposals and they laugh you off the air and you spend the rest of your life telling anyone who will listen that the radio host doesn’t know anything about baseball.
Your opinions are irrelevant and wrong. Now shut up.
King of Cards
If you used baseball trade values then you wouldn’t have suggested the things you suggested. That’s a fact.
King of Cards
You said in a prior post Nootbaar and Gorman and more wouldn’t be enough for Gilbert according to the simulator.
Thats 100% false. Why would you lie? Why do you even care????? You say you aren’t a fan of either team what the heck is your motivation to lie????
iH8PaperStraws
Again, BTV is a joke. I agree most people’s equal trade propositions are absurd. And BTV is as equally to blame for that as people’s embellished opinions of certain players and lack of knowledge of the other players. But if a GM admitted he used BTV to contact a trade he would be fired immediately and laughed out of the game.
TheGr8One
Gilbert and France for Goldschmidt
Gilbert and Suarez for Arenado
Neither will happen (and shouldn’t) but Gilbert isn’t leaving for less. Shop elsewhere Cards, you don’t have an offer that makes sense to a team with 2/5 of its rotation on IL
Little Stevie Janowsky
Gilbert and woo for Goldy and Carlson. And mariners better say yes immediately or that deal will be taken away.
myaccount2
Why would the M’s say yes to that? Goldy is 35 and only signed for a year beyond this one and Carlson is (and has been) nothing special. I’d rather have a controllable number 3 and 4 starter for many years ahead.
nottinghamforest13
“If they were to give any thought to moving him, they would likely have to get back something that helps some other part of their roster in the here and now…Subtracting Gilbert from that mix would to be weighed against the benefits of an upgrade elsewhere.”
Fascinating insight into how decisions are made.
iH8PaperStraws
Little Stevie is just an antagonist who gets off on people wanting to debate him on his inconsistent hot takes. He’s like our local version of skip balis. He’s really good for laughs, because you know he doesn’t even believe his own garbage. Spends all day day refreshing his email looking for replies to his antics.
iH8PaperStraws
The Cardinals don’t have what it takes to get Gilbert. They don’t have what it takes to get any young notable players already established in the majors. Their farm is terrible. No want to take DeJong or Contreras. major league roster is full of league average at best, replacement level players except Arenado and Goldschmidt. Goldschmidt turns 36 next month and has 1.5 years left on his contract, he may get you a couple High A, high risk upside starts, or a bullpen piece, it that’s about it. Like Goldschmidt, Arenado has a full NTC plus a huge contract, he would get to dictate where he goes and his suitors would be pretty limited as well. Herrera was flat lit aweful last year, no reason for him to intouchable. He could have developed more or he could just be another AAAA player the Cardinals are know for. No way he should be untouchable. That just leaves Walker and Winn. This team is in such bad shape and Mozaliak can’t see it. Everyone should be available to get in as many prospects in reruns as possible. Goldschmidt and Nootbaar need to be on the must move list before their values get any less. But in all reality the trade deadline will come and go and like every other year, Mozaliak will show he is nothing but talk. The deadline will expire and we will all be underwhelmed with his lack of moves because he overvalues players and believes they are just a old veteran pitcher away from the WS next year.
nottinghamforest13
Goldschmidt, as you stated, has a NTC. He cannot be on the must move list unless he’s the one driving the action.
iH8PaperStraws
John Mozaliak: “hey Goldy, would you be open to playing the rest of the season in Houston, Philadelphia, Toronto, Baltimore or Arizona? All of them look to be headed to the playoffs, and this organization can get some pieces to help us down the road. If any of them of them are hard no’s, we can taken them off the list.”
Paul Goldschmidt: “yeah sure John, I have a just a little time left in this game, it’s be nice for another shot or two at the WS before it’s over”
There you, a simple conversation and the NTC is a non issue.
belkiolle
No one else can see it either because their farm was rated top 5 by most experts this past offseason and they’ve done nothing to disprove those rankings.
iH8PaperStraws
Where are they now after the mid season 2023 rankings? With Walker no longer included they have two on the MLB top 100. The highest only coming in at 46. Meanwhile clubs like the Dodgers and Orioles have at least 6 each. I’m right up there with the being the biggest Cardinals fan ever and it kills me how dilusional and stuck in the past so many other fans are. You are as much of the problem as the front office. You can’t see that’s it raining besides that fact that your soaking wet.
phillyphan81
There is zero chance of this happening
AlienBob
If Logan Gilbert were available, I think the Mariners could find a better deal than what the Cardinals are able to offer.
But It Do
“Meanwhile” needs to start the sentence, not come in the middle, separated by commas. How do you mess this up not once, not twice, but THREE times? For heaven’s sake. Maybe learn a new word.