The Reds’ surge toward to the top of the NL Central has been one of the top storylines in Major League Baseball this month, and the fact that they’ve done so with negligible contribution from their starting rotation is a remarkable testament to the core group of position players in Cincinnati. Reds fans hoping for a swift return from right-hander Hunter Greene, placed on the injured list last week due to discomfort in his right hip, will have to hope others can pick up the slack on the starting staff for quite some time, however. General manager Nick Krall told the team’s beat last night that Greene is headed to Arizona for a strengthening program and will need to follow that with a throwing program of four to six weeks in length (link via Gordon Wittenmyer of the Cincinnati Enquirer). That makes a return sometime in August a best-case scenario.
Greene, 23, leads the Reds with 73 1/3 innings pitched and has been their most consistent starter throughout the 2023 season. He’s made strides over his 2022 rookie season, largely by scaling back the number of home runs he’s allowed (1.72 HR/9 in 2022, 1.10 in 2023). Greene’s 31.4% strikeout rate is right in line with last year’s excellent 30.9% mark, and while his 9.7% walk rate remains north of the league average, his punchouts have helped him to offset that below-average command. Of the 82 pitchers in MLB this year with at least 70 innings, only three — Spencer Strider, Shohei Ohtani, Kevin Gausman — have a higher strikeout rate than Greene. Only five — Strider, Shane McClanahan, Luis Castillo, Pablo Lopez and Blake Snell — have posted higher swinging-strike rate’s than Greene’s 14.3%.
Suffice it to say, a prolonged absence from Greene isn’t what an already dismal Reds’ rotation needed. Even with Greene’s solid production leading the group, Cincinnati starters rank 28th in the Majors with a 5.88 ERA, leading only the Rockies and A’s in that regard. The Reds’ rotation has MLB’s eighth-highest walk rate (8.8%) and has allowed home runs at the third-highest clip of any starting staff in the game (1.68 HR/9).
Greene and fellow sophomore starter and former top prospect Nick Lodolo, who’s dealing with a stress reaction in his tibia, will now be sidelined beyond the Aug. 1 trade deadline. That leaves Cincinnati with a patchwork rotation currently led by top prospect Andrew Abbott, who’s posted a pristine 1.21 ERA through his first five turns on a big league mound.
The rest of the group has struggled immensely this year. Righty Graham Ashcraft impressed early with a new cutter and improved movement on his slider, but he’s been torched for 47 runs in his past 33 innings. Veteran Luke Weaver has made 12 starts, allowing at least four runs in eight of them and at least three runs in ten of them; he’s averaging five innings per appearance and sitting on a 6.86 ERA. Prospects Brandon Williamson (5.82 ERA in 38 2/3 innings) and Levi Stoudt (nine runs in seven innings) have both debuted this year despite shaky numbers in the upper minors. Neither has found much success yet, though Stoudt’s sample is obviously quite limited.
Depth options like journeyman Ben Lively and righty Connor Overton are both on the injured list as well, the latter after undergoing Tommy John surgery. The Reds signed former Cubs righty Alec Mills to a minor league deal last month, and he’s already been selected to the big league roster despite pitching just 11 minor league innings on the season. The 31-year-old Mills pitched to a 5.66 ERA in 136 2/3 innings for Chicago in 2021-22.
Given the context of their current rotation, it’s hardly a surprise that Krall has already publicly acknowledged a desire to add pitching via the summer trade market. It’s similarly unsurprising, however, that Krall indicated within last night’s comments that the asking prices on the nascent trade market are beyond the team’s comfort zone. “Right now the conversations are in places that we are not – where we don’t want to go,” said Krall.
Trades of major significance this time of year are rare, though certainly not unprecedented. But, with the expansion of the playoff field to a dozen teams, there are very few clubs that are decidedly out of the playoff picture. Several of the teams who fit that bill — A’s, Rockies, Royals — are in their current predicament in large part due to a lack of starting pitching. Today’s brand of MLB front office tends to wait until closer to any and all deadlines — trade deadline, non-tender deadline, Rule 5 protection deadline — before making decisions, preferring to gather as much information as possible. Jumping the market this early would likely come at a steep cost — one that Krall and his group have thus far deemed prohibitive.
astick
They should go get Lorenzen from the Tigers. Reunion. Chemistry. Rental. Low cost to acquire.
This one belongs to the Reds
Those are the type of guys they need to go after. Quality but not high ticket. They need guys with experience to count on. Even a reunion with Chapman as a setup guy.
astick
I think Chapman is too high. Santillan. Anyone. Law. They’re all due back.
As for Lorenzen, I’d offer an Austin Hendrick type prospects.
Brixton
A recent first rounder for a rental back end guy? Probably not necessary
Dbird777
Santillan’s been bad at triple A. Law maybe, but Antone sold his career for one good year. Between Diaz, Sims, Farmer, Gibaut, Young and Duarte, we have a decent pen, so we don’t need to overpay anyone
astick
Bro, have you looked at him. He needs a lot of work.
JackStrawb
Eggsactly. They need to keep the guys with 6.00-plus ERAs off the mound. Get on the phone to Chris Flexen (maybe), the Tigers about Lorenzen, anyone who can keep them in games, who can give them a 4.75 ERA or an ERA+ no worse than… 87 without costing significant prospects.
The Reds have four starters who combined for 36 starts this season, and the ‘best’ of them put up a HR allowed per 9 innings of 1.9, The rest are at 2.0, 2.1, and 2.6 per 9. Those are the guys they need to get the heck away from.
stymeedone
What do you consider a low cost to acquire? Other teams want pitching, too.
This one belongs to the Reds
Other teams are acquiring major league experienced talent daily for the price of a minor league deal.
Motor City Beach Bum
Or upgrade and grab Erod (or both even). Tigers are starved for hitters and Cincy has a glut of them to deal from. 3B Cam Collier would very a nice starter for a package and someone else mentioned Austin Hendricks (secondary piece?). Greene is a big loss for you guys.
ItsKirsten
ERod is a rental. Cincy would be foolish to pursue.
Motor City Beach Bum
If they want to win…
letmeclearmythroat74
Hopefully he gets the Greene light soon
This one belongs to the Reds
So the kid GM is going to sit in his hands again and blow an opportunity.
The players who got them where they are will remember that.
This is not how quality organizations are run. The Reds used to be one. They haven’t been since Jocketty left the GM seat.
danm-6
Ummm… it’s late June. The trade deadline is August 1.
This one belongs to the Reds
August 1 is too late with the state of the pitching. The season slips away as we text.
danm-6
But would a “quality organization” pay the exorbitant prices that teams are apparently now asking?
Big whiffa
For whom ? Not everyone is expensive.
Alan Horn
I agree. I am just skeptical that the Reds can count on Greene and Lodolo staying healthy enough to be counted on in the future.. It is a pattern that is worrisome. They may need to bring in more starters than people realize.
This one belongs to the Reds
Watching Weaver throw batting practice every start proves they ahould have actually addressed the starting staff in the offseason or at least before the season.
JackStrawb
@This one belongs to the Reds You said it. The back end pitching on the Reds is so godawful that it seems impossible they can’t improve on it–without breaking the bank, and without waiting until 11:59 on Deadline Night. If a pitching coach can’t teach a guy with a live arm how to keep his ERA under 5,00, get another pitching coach.
The Reds could thrive by finding 3 starters with ERAs of 4.75. Dismal, but vastly better than what they’re currently pushing out there.
This one belongs to the Reds
I said last night Weaver couldn’t locate his pitches with a pack of beagles, a bloodhound, and a compass. It has been that way all season and they knew he was like that going in. Yet that’s the guy they picked up to pitch in GABP.
Just saying.
Idosteroids
Reds need too much to compete with the top tier teams. Their window is just opening. Why waste resources this season? Lets say lodolo and Hunter don’t come back until the first or second week of Aug. Thats covering 10-15 starts combined, maybe more. Given the state of the rest of the rotation, they need to pick up like 2-3 starters. Odds seemingly not in their favor this season.
Coys Bacon
The condensation of Krall after he made those trades last year to bring the Reds farm system into a deeper state? How’s that Benson trade going? Still looks good for the Reds. I will make sure to bring that up as much as possible since you’ve taken every chance to rip on this GM at any chance. Since OWNERSHIP barely gave Krall a budget to work with. A lot less than Walt ever had. You can blame him for Myers since few thought he was done and they only had 2 LH hitters out there who had not proven they could hit LHP. Bad decision now when it could have been used on more bullpen depth. Yet the bullpen is still 5 deep. You think Krall has nothing to do with that. Or building the farm system.
Let’s talk about Walt. In 2013 when they lose Ludwick in the first 3 games. He sat in his hands. The Pirates even took advantage and purchased an OF to help their offense. They blew past the Reds in the last month to get Home field advantage in the WC playoff. Sleepy Walt as he was called during that whole year by many reds fans on blogs. Forums. He did nothing to help at all. And they actually were a better all around team with. With very good pitching. Best pitching they had in the last 20 years during 2012-14 seasons. He did nothing. But again. OWNERSHIP. not wanting to spend much more at all. Walt didn’t even try dumpster diving at all. You give Walt too much credit and not enough to Krisvky for building those 2010-13 teams.
No one is going to trade pitching because they know they can wait out these teams for more than they should be giving up. A lot of teams need pitching. Anyone besides CES. Marte and Connor Phillips will probably be available. I’m sure you’ll complain about who they give up to get it just like the Benson trade.
This one belongs to the Reds
I wasn’t aware that Benson plated every day. Seems like he is still a fourth outfielder to me.
Is Marte and Arroyo helping the major league roster more than Castillo would be? Prospects are fine but they are suspects until they do something at the big league level.
The Mahle trade looks great even if Mahle was never hurt and I said so. Same with my criticism of ownership over time.
There is player development and there is TEAM BUILDING. The latter was half done. A whole lot of talent was there to be had for a song and was not done. OWNERSHIP may not gave given the budget to sign a multi-million dollar guy but that wasn’t the point.
Reading is a skill. If you want to defend the guy, fine, but we have seen the results. The players and manager got them where they are despite the lousy pitching and overworked bullpen, not because of it.
Alan Horn
Benson has been hitting lately. I guess we need a larger sample size to make a further evaluation. It would be nice if he develops to be a solid contributor..
Coys Bacon
You again continue to write one thing then state another to state your points.
You say prospects are nothing but just that and Not helping now……while complaining that they traded 2 Low A players who have barely played This Year for Benson.
Don’t care if they were just drafted in the last couple of years. It’s 2 Low A prospects for someone who is helping now. Benson being played is nothing to do with his production. Its modern managers strict dogma of platoons. He’s still producing. And if played against LHP. He would probably produce better than Newman and Senzel. He’s hitting better than a 4th OF on this team.
I do have an issue with CES not being up here to take Senzel or Newman spot as the RH part of a platoon with Benson. At worst. Or even Votto. Since they could all share DH.
This one belongs to the Reds
You understand a small market team has to have prospects in waves, right? Trading two of your top prospects in the wave you just drafted right away for a guy you may not play full time in the future was my issue. They weren’t drafted in the second round because they stink plus you had no clue what you did or didn’t have in them as far as pro ball.
Remember your history, that they were still counting on Senzel for CF back then even though he was oft injured and it was obvious he wasn’t an outfielder. It still is obvious.
Their outfield situation outside the great play of Friedl and Fraley is a head scratcher. I know Benson has looked bad against left handers but that’s a small sample. Let him face them. Let’s see what he’s got. I hope it works out. It’s probably apparent I am not a fan of platoons. As Sparky said once, when you play extra guys a lot, you find out why they are extra guys.
Agree with you on CES but where does he play right now? Those guys have to play every day in the bigs to learn. I think that will solve itself in July because I don’t see either Newman or Senzel here past the deadline. Barrero either really, if he has any value to anyone. Maybe they can beef up the bullpen or minors pitching at least, or be part of a package deal.
I see folks talking about trading CES, but he will be needed when Votto retires soon. No way in blazes I send him anywhere but Cincinnati. They even tried CES in the corner outfield spots so that may be a clue too. I think Marte is more likely to be dealt since he’s superfluous in this wave, but it would have to be for a controllable starter. You have to give to get. Arroyo is in the minors low enough that he should be ready for prime time when India is getting courted by others, and you know at this rate he will.
monroe_says
Never should have traded Castillo and Sonny Gray. The cheap Castellinis just didn’t want to pay.
HBan22
The Gray trade was worth it because Chase Petty looks like a good bet to be an effective MLB starter as soon as next season possibly. They really should have tried to extend Castillo instead of trading him though, despite landing some quality prospects for him. He’s exactly what they need right now.
This one belongs to the Reds
Petty is still in Dayton so he is at least two tears away.
None of the good pitching prospects are above AA right now, so no help this season other than guys coming off the injury list. Outside of a couple of bullpen guys, none of those are soon.
titanic struggle
Don’t tell Connor Philips that, and I think Petty was bumped up to AA..
This one belongs to the Reds
Since Philips just made it to AAA, I’ll stand by it until he shows otherwise.
joefleury
As a Twins fan I would say Gray for Petty was pretty fair. Petty is not proven, but the upside is far higher and looking at the Twins record now I would love to reverse that trade.
I especially would love to reverse the Tyler Mahle trade. Steer would be leading the Twins in hitting and Strand would be in the bigs. That was a fleecing for a few Tyler Mahle starts and a TJS.
Big whiffa
Or let disco walk. He woulda 100% signed a 4/50 mil pack. That shoulda been an e z choice !
Rsox
The problem is, at last years trading deadline if you had told the Reds on June 28th of next season they would be in 1st place they probably would have thought you were crazy. Hindsight is always 20/20 but no one could have predicted the kids coming up and perform as well as they have and this team being where it is right now
monroe_says
Hindsight is 20/20, but Castillo was an ace when they dealt him. IMO, you keep that guy. The extension he signed with the Ms was a bargain. If you can’t afford that guy, sell the team …. full disclosure, I live in Seattle and have attended about 12 of his starts so far. Amazing … Still wish he was a Red.
jbryant0693
Reds don’t have great options to construct a rotation that can compete until Lodolo/Greene return in August. They could trade, sure, but the trade price will be high, even for an expiring contract like Giolito. Maybe they could target one of the few controllable pitching assets, but at what price?
Big whiffa
The white sox are in it.
Trade CES and couple mid prospects to Miami for Braxton Garrett. Both teams should be all over that
Rsox
What a difference a division makes. The Red Sox sit 13 games behind the Rays in the AL East Gauntlet but are a more manageable 3.5 games out of the final Wild Card spot. The White Sox sit 5.5 games behind the Twins in possibly Baseball’s worst divison in history and are a much farther 10 games back of the last Wild Card spot.
This year’s trade deadline is going to be interesting to watch
Big whiffa
Extended playoffs ruined trades. They need to extend deadline to 9/1 and just have 2 divisions. An AL and NL. That’ll fix it
longines64
You know you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel when Ben Lively and Jerad Eickhoff are still getting looks.
Big whiffa
Right ! Anyone who thinks krall is trying to win needs to have their comment button removed lol
octavian8
Don’t understand why you think Krall is not trying to win. It’s his moves that has team in position to excel the next few years. As a fan I don’t want ownership to go all in for this year only. Trades and FA spending must be targeted for the long term health of the franchise. Panicked trades rarely work out. If we trade our system now for a couple of arms who blow out where would we be?
Big whiffa
You have to build a team in the off season. They are some 50/60 million below their max payroll. And They new they didn’t have the pitching to compete, even in the weak central.
This one belongs to the Reds
There is player development, which a whole lot ofher people have their hands in, and then there is team building. The kid GM has failed big time in the latter.
octavian8
With saving 50/60M on wages this year maybe we can go over max payroll next year. As you said, build your team in the off season. Newbies gain experience this year, fill in lacking areas next year.
This one belongs to the Reds
Let’s hope they do that.
Big whiffa
I actually think they will be ready to spend. So let’s hope they do it wisely lol. There’s several players out there that past on cincy that would have been terrible signs along w a couple good ones
Coys Bacon
OWNERSHIP is the word of the day. To blame a GM who is told by “OWNERSHIP” that you can only spend so much and not more. Clear out tradable players with salary then the GM is not to blame. But OWNERSHIP is who dictates the budget and what can be spent. I am placing caps and italics on “OWNERSHIP” because you seem confused as to who actually runs the team. And they have meddled in trades before with Walt as the GM as well.
The trades Krall made last year should make all Reds happy considering some of the previously bad sell offs that happened
JackStrawb
@longines64 Mets fan here. Speaking of JEickhoff, as we called him, in addition to the “thumbs down” fiasco from the putative team captain, the 2021 team was so badly run that JEickhoff was allowed to pitch 20 innings despite his 2.034 WHIP, his 4.1 HR per 9 allowed, and his 8.69 ERA.
Completely inexcusable. And this was after he was getting shelled in the Mets AAA affiliate, giving up 1.9 HR per 9 on rockets out of the yard. Anyone employing him deserves everything they get.
Big whiffa
This dude in my fantasy league had too many outfielders so he offered me Harris ll for Greene when that initial optimistic injury report came out. Thank You !
nottinghamforest13
The less time the Reds young and impressionable core spends around Greene and his self-absorbed attitude the better.
Cincyfan85
The Reds’ Rotation situation is HORRIBLE. It is really sad honestly because I feel like the lineup is really special.
jimd-2
They should claim Chris Flexon. He has been bad this year but was a very solid starter for Mariners in 2021 and 2022. It will only cost you cash.
SODOMOJO
Good fit. I think you can slot him right in and get some quality innings. The league change might be good for him. His stuff is bland, but he’s a pro.
JackStrawb
Flexen is so… off, that I’m guessing arm injury of some kind. He’s not just off, he’s getting rocked every time out. He’s given up runs in 7 of 7 appearances out of the pen. It’s brutal. I doubt you could just put him in the rotation or even the pen at this point. He needs a diagnosis, and it probably involves surgery and / or the rest of the year off.
He’s been so bad the Mariners, who had him through 2026 at arb award prices, are willing to cut bait entirely.
SODOMOJO
I’m rooting for him. Sometimes the change of scenery, change of league does wonders.
SODOMOJO
GOOOOO
I traded Austin Hays and Soler for Greene and Hells Bells back in early May. I had picked up Kelenic and felt deep at OF and light at p. JFC.
Somehow still in third, but I’d probably be in first if not for that
Ham Fighter
Steven Strasbourg version 2.0
SODOMOJO
Beau of luck to Hunter. He is so fun to watch, man. Reminds me so much of watching The Big Unit. Here it is, you know it’s coming, hit it
SODOMOJO
*Best of luck
titanic struggle
Can’t swing a dead cat by the tail in The Nati without hittin a pitcher on the IL…
sacrifice
I’m thinking James Paxton and Dylan Cease
ItsKirsten
The red sox are not selling.
They should not give up what it will take for cease.
zbock8
If you start the sentence with the word but, it shouldn’t have a comma after it.
Armaments216
Context?
cguy
Krall has been little short of remarkable in engineering this rebuild. With the additions of Marte, CES, & Phillips later this year, the Reds will have one of the youngest, cheapest, & most talented rosters in baseball. He simply will not jeopardize this success by overpaying (in talent, or commitment) for short-term pitching. Job #1 is another successful draft. If ownership wants reactionary management, they better fire Krall and find either Joketty or Leatherpants.
This one belongs to the Reds
This talented roster will remember their lack of support in their run from management starting in three years when these guys start hitting the free agency years.
Also player development isn’t solely on the GM. In fact, it usually is the job of others on the staff.
The trading away of talent, one in particular they should have kept around because the return for Castillo was redundant and his contract extension was reasonable, is the only thing you can credit him for.
The trades were a plus. However the actual team building he has flunked all along.
As a side note, I’m sure the family appreciates youe support.
cguy
Revisionist history is amusing. Facts are in 2021 Castillo was 3wins and 10 losses with a 4.65 ERA. Walked 45 in 102.2 IP with 96K, Decent but not exactly Cy Young type season. Castillo began 2022 on the IL and by the time he was activated, the Reds (starting 3-22) were out of it. Anyone who would have even suggested the Reds could be in first place by the 3rd week of June in 2023 without spending a ton of money on free agent would have just been laughned at. Blowing up the roster and getting as much talent as possible WAS the smart money ( as opposed to the previous “retool” of trading for those legendary “ML ready prospects”). Krall’s rebuild is at least half a season ahead of any reasonable schedule- I fail to comprehend how you could even claim it as “flunked”. BTW no one considers redundancy when drafting or trading for prospects. Its the tools that count. Finally Krall has a great future as a baseball executive (somewhere) and his family doesn’t need support.
Big whiffa
I actually agree w this. Krall is the man now and moving forward and I’m happy w that as a reds fan as he has had plenty of failing experience. I also respect how he’d set up fall guys like Dick Williams and blame him for their terrible lineup when it was krall in charge the whole time.
He needs to make the right free agent acquisitions now. They’ll have plenty of money and players will consider this team like never before.
And any trade that happens now needs to be to secure staff anchors. So Lynch from KC or there is several options in Miami. You can trade from young talent to acquire these likes
Rishi
They really could use Luis Castillo. It stinks that he never got to see the brighter days for the Reds. But I know Seattle enjoys him and I’m sure he enjoys it there too. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have traded him I’m just saying things didn’t line up time-wise. They need a starter but need to remain patient perhaps too.
jcraft21
No way we should get Chapman. That locker room is solid. He’s a cancer. That’s not what this team needs.
cguy
Reds not only have an effective bullpen, they have a relatively young effective bullpen. Farmer is a FA after this season, Sims after 02024. Everyone else is here this season and several others as well. Diaz, Gibaut, Law, Young, and Duarte could bolster the relief corp for some time. Santillan and Antone if healthy. Reds may need a veteran reliever , but will do better if they wait until after this season to find one.
jimd-2
Reds will be aggressive at the deadline, the ownership needs to get back in the good graces of the fans and other businesses in Cincinnati. The Castellini family name has been driven over and tarnished for the past year. Also, fans selling out games and changing the Reds revenue plans for 2023 require the aggressiveness. I agree they won’t unload key top prospects but Reds farm system is very deep. They also have a former prospect in Barrero who still has some value. If the Castellini’s aren’t aggressive and team doesn’t make playoffs they will be destroyed nationally and locally. Expect them to make moves…