The Red Sox have placed starter Chris Sale on the 15-day injured list due to inflammation in his throwing shoulder. Corey Kluber was reinstated from the paternity list to take the active roster spot.
Sale left last night’s start in the fourth inning as his velocity was dropping. The Sox announced afterwards that he’d head for imaging. Sale addressed the Boston beat this evening, saying it’ll be around a week before he receives an official diagnosis (via Chris Cotillo of MassLive). He said he doesn’t believe he’ll require surgery but it looks unlikely he’ll be back when first eligible a couple weeks from now.
Injuries have become unfortunately familiar for Sale over the past few years. One of the sport’s most durable arms between 2012-18, he’s battled health concerns since entering his 30s. He lost all of 2020 and most of ’21 to Tommy John surgery. Sale’s 2022 campaign was marred by a number of issues. He lost the first half of the year to a stress reaction in his ribs. Two starts into his return, he fractured a finger on his throwing hand when he was struck by a comebacker. Sale’s season officially ended in August when he broke his wrist in a bicycle accident.
This year’s 59 innings are already the most he’s logged since 2019. The seven-time All-Star has a middling 4.58 ERA through 11 starts. His underlying numbers are quite a bit better. Sale has punched out 28.5% of opponents and kept his walk rate to a tidy 6%. He’d had the results to match in May, posting a 2.42 ERA while holding batters to a .183/.224/.355 line in 26 frames.
Boston will have to proceed without arguably their best starter for at least two weeks. The Sox have run with Tanner Houck, Garrett Whitlock, Brayan Bello and James Paxton alongside Sale in the rotation. Kluber and Nick Pivetta each recently moved from the starting five to the bullpen. One of that duo — presumably Kluber, the more recent of the two to slide to relief — is likely to step back into the rotation.
I’m stunned
Sale is stale
Hate to make light
But Sale is blight
And I’m surely bummed…
(so are the Sox)
Swing and a miss, but you tried your best. You’ll get em’ next time slugger.
Just one question: what took them so long.?
They were trying to avoid Lisa’s hotcakes.
hotscakes
Just one question: what took them so long?
That’s two questions
Quite possibly the worst rap since Fred Flintstone dropped that track about the Fruity Pebbles.
Two island boys have entered the chat
@Curly – Leave the Haiku’s to Yoshida please.
$120M over the last 4 years for very little production. Ouch…
If it’s “only” inflammation, then that sounds like good news.
Great news, he hasn’t pitched well for years and coming to 35, don’t expect anything more, a miracle in the wings
I mean, he was pitching a lot better as of late. Last six starts, 36 innings, 2.25 ERA, 41 Ks, 5 BBs.
Sorry to hear… but any chance the Redsox still have my buddy Brais number???(stinks he was getting closer to becoming the Sale we traded for
olmtiant – I missed the origin of the whole Brasier thing and have been meaning to ask …. do you really personally know him? Or are you just making fun of him? You know I don’t like to assume. LOL
FPG… thanks for asking but the rest of the story was in 2019 after taking daughter to BC we went to a game.. as we were getting our picture with Brian ( guy on the stilts) I noticed two Redsox players coming from somewhere, I believe shop across street.. one was Rick porcello the other was you guessed it… by the time I could react porcello was by me by I cut off Brais and asked for a picture.. he was cool said sure and we snapped a couple all the time Rick was telling him to come on… so for that I became a big fan of Brais… ( 2018 it was fashionable) after that pretty much I was his only fan..lol.. but that’s the story and I’m sticking to it…
olmtiant – Great story my friend, thank you for providing the background. Glad to hear he was a good guy to you, and also glad you remained loyal to him because of his good deed.
Sale on the injured list??? Shocking !
you say that with such glee. I am glad I don’t know you. Myself I feel bad for the guy who worked so hard to get back.
Chris Sale trade value = 0
Chris Sale has produced 1.9 WAR over approximately 4 season of his 5 year $145M deal.
There’s still a way that $20M option gets picked up.
Even if he comes back later this year and isn’t atrocious, he might be lucky to produce another 1 WAR.
Then in 2024, what if Sale is the type to somehow muscle through contract years to get the next big deal and he is just durable and effective enough that he triggers the option and he gets that extra $20M despite being almost literally worthless for the past five years?
Aren’t ya glad ya don’t have to pay it? The only money you should worry about is the price of a ticket.
Could be worse, could be in year 2 of an 11/$279 mil pact.
Or logged 8 starts in a 7/245 before being completely shut down.
Trillion – You are a perfect example of someone who is clueless about how numbers should be reflected to give a FAIR picture of what is happening. You cherry pick your numbers for your point. Too bad I’m around to keep you honest!!
Sale made $12MM in 2017 and while WAR is a CRAP number to suggest value you used it so I will continue and also provide better stats.
In 2017 Sale had a WAR of 5.9 WAR according to ONE of the many companies that produce the bogus number and refuse to standardize on it’s calculation thus rendering it nothing more than data, NOT A STAT.
In 2017 for $12MM he produced a 157 ERA+. That’s a heck of return on the money paid to him while playing for Farrell!!
In 2018 for $12.515MM his ERA+ was 209!! (100 league average!!) his bogus WAR was 6.5.
So for $24.515MM Boston got a bogus WAR value of 12.4!! Yes, you must look at the whole picture not just that part that supports your argument!!
Cora hurt Sale during the 2018 season by not letting him pitch his game and by prematurely putting him on the IL in July in hopes of saving something since he had a rep of fading late in the season. He destroyed his shot at the Cy Young that year and started a series of issues by trying to over manage him.
It continues in 2019 when in May Cora changed his mechanics because Cora screwed up and shortened Spring Training and it had a disastrous impact on Sale. Cora compounded it by forcing a change in his mechanics which led to Tommy John Surgery. Was Sale injury prone? No he was doing what his idiot manager asked him to do and it cost him 3 years of his career.
During 2019 Sale made a whopping $15MM (half of our DH that plays 3B’s salary!!) and he still produced 2.1 WAR in 25 games and a 110 ERA+. In March of 2019 Sale got a five year extension for $145 raising his total pay while in Boston to $184.515.
That number corresponds to a 143 ERA+, a 16.4 WAR and an AAV of $23.06MM per year and the WAR is still subject to going up during the 2023 and 2024 seasons. Not bad production despite all Cora has done to ruin him!!
So has Boston been screwed by the Sale deals? NOPE Not even close.and they still have time to gain more from the $184.515MM spent on the player.
A 143 ERA+ says when healthy he’s been a stud. His WAR of 16.4 for 106 starts compares well to others.
SALE 1o6 starts (thanks to Cora) WAR 16.4 and ERA+ 143
EROD 153 starts WAR of 14.3 and ERA+ 110
EOVALDI 84 starts WAR of 7.6 and ERA+ 113
PRICE 98 starts WAR of 9.7 and ERA+ 118
CURT SCHILLING 98 starts 17..7 WAR and ERA+ 120
Sale before Cora (8 Seasons) – 180 Starts WAR 36.0 and ERA+ 135
Sale since Cora (7 Seasons) – 106 Starts WAR 16.4 and ERA+ 143
This last comparison shows that while in Boston Sale has pitched better than he did before Boston but he hasn’t pitched as much thanks to Cora. Stop blaming Sale and FIRE CORA. He messed up Price too. His mistakes have cost the club a ton of money.
In summary, Sale has provided value for his time in Boston to cover his costs. He succeeded with both Ventura and Farrell but has failed miserably to stay on the field under Cora thanks to his tinkering with his mechanics and his complete lack of understanding of pitching. And other than Pedro and maybe a couple other Boston starters, he’s the best they’ve ever had in Boston when he is healthy. Remove Cora from the equation and see how much he flourishes despite his advanced age!!!
Coronary thrombosis is a hell of a drug.
Thank you.
KD – not that I don’t believe that cora could have screwed up Sale, but do you have any references to that? I searched and came up with nothing.
That’s because it’s total BS.
Cora told sale to change his mechanics?
Who’s a$$ did you pull this cr@p out of?
He’s incapable of making a post without blaming either Cora, Bloom, or Devers.
GGrnmtnyeti = Go back to TV interviews in April 2019 after Sale had a couple of bad starts due to the shorten Spring Training Cora planned. Cora on multiple interviews said “We found a flaw in his mechanics and we are working with him to correct both his arm angle and his release point”.
Anyone who has ever pitched knows dramatic changes to arm angle and release point take a long time to make so you do it during the off season. You need a ton of reps and you need to gradually make the change on the arm angle or you risk tearing tendons that aren’t used to being moved in the new direction. You build up those tendons by throwing and throwing at lesser speeds to gain the muscle memory and then after a month or two build up you start cutting loose with greater velocity. Cora had Sale make the change between starts!!! A few starts later his elbow started to hurt so they put him on the IL. He came beck later in 2019 and again he had pain issues that ultimately led to TJ surgery.
To compound the problem, Boston fired DD for not going along with the whole idea of not signing Mookie and the GM spot was run by a triumvirate of idiots who didn’t insist on TJ surgery at the end of the 2019 season. That cost Boston a full year of Sale. That’s not on Sale, that’s on the front office and even Bloom delayed the surgery by 4 months. Idiots!!
I commented multiple times on several forums about not changing mechanics in mid season back in 2019 so that is further evidence that the mechanical changes were made public by Boston. I have specifically cited several discussions but the one I remember best is Cora at a table explaining the situation and watching Sale’s body language standing behind him. He rolled his eyes and quickly turned away from the cameras when Cora suggested the change in mechanics. I hoped Sale would simply tell Cora to pound sand but he went along with everything like a good soldier. It cost him so much. He was on a HOF path before Cora and now, who knows? If Cora gets fired, maybe. If he wastes this year and next year with Cora, I doubt he’ll recover from him being his manager.
King – I’m used to your ignorant comments so this one doesn’t surprise me.
You really hate acknowledging facts when they don’t fit your thinking or lack of!!
Phree4u – Ignorance is a disease you must have caught at a young age!!!
Hahaha. Look it up yourself there is :PLENTY of documentation.
Do you even follow the Red Sox?
Finding a flaw in someone’s mechanics means noticing something they are currently doing different from what they did in the past when they were having success. Only a complete idiot would think that comment meant that Cora changed something completely with Sale’s delivery. Not to mention the fact that while it was Cora addressing the media because it’s part of his job as manager it almost certainly wasn’t Cora who spotted the difference and addressed it with Sale but the pitching coach, considering that’s HIS job.
No I just understand how baseball teams operate and am not as childish as you needing to find someone to blame for everything if the team goes through a rough stretch. It’s called wisdom and maturity. You should try it sometime.
Kingken – Only a complete idiot would read what I wrote and respond as you did. Clearly, you don’t know Cora and how he manages.
He’s SO DUMB (how dumb is he?) Cora is so dumb he thought pitching in the post season was so close to the start of spring training that he had the pitchers start pitching two weeks later than normal to start spring training.
Only a complete idiot wouldn’t realize that from OCT 31 to the start of spring training is PLENTY OF REST and nothing needed to be pushed back. It was Cora thinking he knew something, being wrong and implementing it. So go ahead tell me again how Cora works!! hahahaha
King – Clearly you have absolutely no affiliation with baseball and have no idea how teams work. You embarrass yourself all the time with your naive comments and you take cheap shots at others who don’t agree with you.
Present facts not your BS opinions and maybe people will respect your comments.
FYI…. Cheap shots when you are on an anonymous forum is the behavior of a juvenile who likes to try to bully others. Present facts and talk baseball not trash if you want respect.
Chris’s mom? Is that you?
It’s an injury so it’s not funny but all things considered it’s kinda comical.
Hardly a surprise considering his history, but it’s still a shame especially considering that he’s been pretty good since mid-April.
Ironic for Kluber to come of the paternity list when he’s been getting sonned all season
Kluber’s decline has been most a parent all year.
Patrick Corbin is probably available..For better or worse he takes the mound every 5 days.at a similar salary…
In the trade for Chris Sale, Boston sent Michael Kopech, Yoan Moncada, and, I think, two others who aren’t in the majors. Kopech sat out the pandemic season and then lost more than a year recovering from TJ surgery. Moncada had a decent year in 2019, but he’s never even come close to meeting the expectations for a player who at the time of the trade ranked as baseball’s No. 1 prospect. Boston got Sale and he fronted the staff that brought a World Series victory to Boston. That wouldn’t have happened with Kopech and Moncada playing for Boston.
Of course your assuming that if the BoSox kept those players they would have not made any trade for a front line pitcher during that period and that Sale was the only pitcher that could have delivered a WS for Boston……Thats a bit of a stretch……Sale, has won a total of 45 games during that stretch and while certainly. a front line pitcher for the first several years, has been anything but with a whopper of a contract extension to boot…….
Which just goes to point out the trade wasn’t the problem, the rush to offer the contract extension was.
Cant blame that one on Bloom..thanks DD..
True, but the commentor I was replying to made it sound as if the players traded for Sale were inconsequential, and Boston overwhelmingly won that trade…..while Sale was effectively an ace through the early part of his career with Boston, the commentator I replied to also made it sound as if Sale was the only reason that Boston won a WS and that DD wouldn’t have made a trade for another player who might have done the same thing….propelling the Sox to victory…..Sale’s ineffectiveness due to injury over the past few seasons, may in fact be rooted why the White Sox decided to trade him to begin with…his frame plus the torque with which he pitches could have been what Chicago knew would eventually catch up with him…….and while the RedSox on a WS, he rehabs while making $$$millions on a bad contract extension……..
The only pitching related injury before this one was the TJ surgery, which is nothing out of the ordinary for virtually any pitcher recently. As was pointed out, the young pitcher who Boston traded to get Sale wound up having that even sooner than Sale did. Last year was simply a series of unfortunate events, but nothing that his frame caused. And quite frankly none of us know how serious this injury is right now. Given the relative little actual pitching he’s done the past 3 years it’s not all that shocking that he’d have something come up this year. But it could be nothing more than fatigue on his shoulder from being worked more than it’s been used to recently. We all need to take a breath and let this play out and see what it is and what it isn’t.
King and Pool – DD did the right thing. He paid Sale after he delivered 3 great years at a team friendly price of roughly $13MM per season. Sale was going to be a FA and there was no way for DD to know what harm would befall him under Cora. You don’t let elite pitchers rejoin the FA market if you can get them for a team friendly $25.6MM per year.
This is all on CORA not Sale and definitely not DD.
Rocky – First it’s not your money. Next Bloom pisses away tons more on crap players.
If you are going to complain about a guy who made 13MM for 3 years at the start of his Boston career while putting up near Cy Young numbers and taking a failing team to Division Champs overnight as a problem then you have issues.
DD was brilliant in using over-rated prospects to bring real talent to the Red Sox. That’s why Philly is now extremely competitive like Boston used to be. It’s not about the money spent it’s about the quality of players. Sale was a stud until he played for Cora. JD was a stud and still is in LA.
REMEMBER the Sale deal was before the 2017 season. This is 2023. Six years later Moncada never turned into anything special despite being over =rated as the #1 prospect. Kopech has yet to give CWS a good full season six years later. And remember Anderson Espinoza, another highly touted prospect that DD traded. How did he work out? hahaha Pomerantz gave Boston something they needed to win their division and the World Series. That’s brilliant use of over-rated prospects.
DD haters try to create an alternate reality but the fact remains the Farm System was very productive while DD was here. He used it to bring in talent from other teams while keeping the better prospects to graduate to the Red Sox. THAT’S EXACTLY THE JOB OF THE GM. Hear that Bloom? Do your job!!! Thank you Bill for the great quote!
KD, while I agree that Cora isn’t great with managing a pitching staff, I have to ask…
Did Cora make Sale punch a wall? Did Cora make Sale fall off a bike?
No and no.
Chris Sale’s biggest promlem is…Chris Sale
Pool: Can’t blame Bloom. DD gave an extension to a guy that preformed for him. Bloom is out there dumpster diving giving contracts to guys like Kluber , Paxton. O ya let’s go sign an elite older closer for a team that will struggle to finish above 500. Real smart Chaim
DBH1969 – Cora is responsible for the TJ surgery. That’s was my point.
Bringing up the fact that he punched a wall seems petty. There are countless guys who punched walls, got hurt then healed and were fine just like Sale.
The bike incident to me is simply bad luck. As an avid bike rider when I was younger there are bad days when unexpected things happen. Take away Cora ruining his arm and career and the bike incident probably never gets mentioned. That’s why it’s petty.
It makes no sense to take cheap shots at the team’s best pitcher this decade and last decade. Take the cheap shots at Cora.
Think back. Racism in Boston in 2017 was a big theme. The idiot owners thought that hiring an unqualified Latin manager would get the public off their backs rather than selecting one of many qualified managers that were available. That decision nearly cost them a championship in 2018 and it started the demise of the organization when the know nothing manager decided to start spring training for pitchers two to three weeks later than it should have been started. It led to multiple arm injuries and it sent a championship team into a downward spiral that is still happening.
Add to the fact that he concocted the biggest and most embarrassing cheating scandal in the history of the game and ONLY got a 60 game suspension and you have a serial cheater running an organization into the ground. Add another unqualified person at GM and you have a disaster that is the Boston Red Sox 2020 to 2023.
@Rocky, Sale went 12-4 over 27 starts with 2.11 ERA for 2018 WS Champion Red Sox. U can try and flip to speculating what could have been with another trade. However, he performed excellent for BoSox and helped deliver a World Series that year. That is a fact that is undeniable.
Rocky: “His frame and the torque…could have been what Chicago knew would eventually catch up with him…” You give the White Sox FO too much credit.
Another way to look at it is, without Moncada, the White Sox probably wouldn’t have made it to the PO in 2020. They didn’t do much once they got there but for the Sox, just getting there is monumental. And Kopech had TJ’s after his second career start in 2018. He missed 2019 recovering from it, then chose to sit out 2020.
The problem with Sale wasn’t the trade that brought him to Boston. It’s the extension he signed after the 2018 season when he was having injury issues.
Rub some dirt on it and he should be good to pitch next start.
Unfortunately you know this was coming when he came out of last nights game
Unfortunately you knew this was coming when he came out of spring training.
He did say it doesn’t seem as bad as his shoulder issues in 2018 which he missed a little more than a month for so hopefully that ends up being true
rsfan – Just an FYI… the shoulder issue in 2018 was a CORA being CORA move. Since he knows nothing about pitching he blew up a small issue so he could rest Sale thinking it would help him down the stretch. It backfired like all of Cora’s ideas. He lost his mojo while sitting and has never been the same until this past month.
Lets see how exaggerated this IL stay will be. With Cora the cheater, you simply don’t know what angle he is playing when he puts a guy on the IL.
If we fire Cora maybe the new manager can give us factual information about injuries and not the Cora fabrications we’ve gotten since 2018.
Didn’t see the game. Saw the line this morning in the box score. 3-2/3 solid innings. Wait. 3-2/3 innings? Aw, damn.
One thing they have to do is stop paying huge contracts.See they won and gave Sale a huge contract and it turned to hurt the Sox.Low paid vetereans and rookies will be easier to replace if they don’t do well.
At the time of the extension, Sale was still healthy.
TB Sox NY – Can I ask? .Do you have a zipper on the pocket you keep your wallet in?
WOW what a gross exaggeration of the truth.
Big talent costs big money and without big talent you don’t win anything. Ask TB!! They have been In the bridal party plenty of times but never the bride because they are too cheap!!
To be fair, the economic situation doesn’t provide revenue streams to win against other markets so clearly their model is simply to make the playoffs and HOPE for a win while others like Boston before Bloom had a philosophy of spending and winning for multiple years.
FYI… The Red Sox make over $300MM a year so unzipper the pocket and select excellent players like DD did and we can win again.
I mentioned this earlier in the year, not just saying this now.
I wish they traded him when he strung together a few good starts. They aren’t winning anything anyway, why not at least try to get out from under the rest of this contract.
Even with a few good starts he has zero trade value. The Red Sox would have to add someone who performs or has upside to get anyone of consequence in return.
No way that Sale would have agreed to the deal without getting something out of it. He probably would have insisted that his option year become guaranteed.
Because no team trades a front line player in May and no team trades for a player like that in May either. And certainly not one with a lot of question marks associated with them. If the Sox would have been willing to trade him in your scenario it would be because they were uncertain he’d hold up all year. Why would some other team not have the same concerns? And if they did they certainly wouldn’t be offering any great trade package to acquire him.
So you think Sale was untradeable?
That’s kinda silly. Anyone is tradeable for pennies on the dollar.. The Red Sox paying half his salary is better than paying all of it.
This year was the first time Sale even SEEMED healthy in years. That was the time to dump him.
Okay you’re talking about something different. Dumping him. I thought you were talking about trading the guy and getting something back lol. My bad.
the original trade was a perfect GFIN move (flags fly forever) but the extension was insane
Sale, Rendon and, to a lesser extent, Bryant. Just think if those guys were healthy for an entire season.
Pivetta has pitched much better than Kluber this season. Neither are good I realize, but I feel Pivetta should have gotten the call first.
White Sox Legend!
I think the Sox medical staff are out of ideas and ready to ask if he tried putting it in a bag of rice yet
I remember that was how Steve Carlton worked out his arms in two bags of rice. Whether he did this or other exercises, he had good longevity and a very productive career.
What a cutup- that guy!
He still owes us for that jersey!
Hey- the two guys who ran Chicago! It’s hard work being good at stuff. Looks like I was smart to give Javy away. Rough day for him today
KD17, your hatred for Cora far exceeds my hatred for the Yankees and I didn’t think that was even remotely possible. How do you sleep at night? Your brain must just be filled with Cora this and Cora that and must never stop. Do you go to a coffee shop and just ask them who the manager of the Red Sox is? That’s way more “caffeine” than any product sold legally in the US. Here’s a suggestion: Ignore that Cora exists, Pretend that only the players on the field matter. Celebrate when they succeed and be sad when they fail. Or even better: Get a job with the Red Sox that involves you being around the team and coaches as often as if you were a player. Observe, absorb, pontificate. And sleep at night.
NOTHING anywhere ever exceeds or has exceeded your hatred of the Yankees. You should take your own advice about sleeping at night with 2 or 3 sleeping pills. You’ll add ten years to your life. And you’ll add a year to the lives of everyone around you.
I have very little trouble sleeping at night, but I do sleep better when the Yankees lose. It’s been a great millennium so far. In fact, the only year that the Yankees won, my wife had brain surgery, so baseball was kind of meaningless.
whyhayzee – Thanks for your concern but I don’t give Cora a thought except when I’m on this website or I happen to catch a game and he’s making more bonehead moves. Otherwise, my day has nothing to do with Cora or Bloom.
My anger stems from watching multiple organizations self implode. The Bears in the 80s should have been a dynasty but owners, front office, managers and coaches are idiots and don’t realize when they have it great. I watched the Bulls self implode thanks to an egotistical GM. The Patriots imploded when they couldn’t provide Brady with adequate wide outs despite him taking pay cuts to provide the money. Now the Red Sox.
This forum gives a fan a chance to rant about how incredibly stupid people are when they have assembled a great situation and then they destroy it.
Whatever happened when Mookie met with ownership about their racism triggered the mess that is the Red Sox in 2023. The dominos started falling and a team and organization that was poised to win multiple Rings was completely torn down. Fire DD, Hire Bloom, fire Cora rehire Cora, push Mookie, Price, Benny, Vazquez, Bogaerts, JD and Nate out the door. All dominos that have left the organization in a hot mess.
Now I will get up, go have some lunch and not think about Cora, Bloom or the hot mess until I return to my computer hours from now after I watch today’s games.
See!!! No issues but thanks for the concern!!
KD17, I didn’t like bringing in Jansen in the 9th inning of a tied game, but I’m not sure who else was available. I will admit to not paying as much attention to the Red Sox these days, now that they’ve experienced success. I go back to 1963, when I started piano lessons and rooting for the Red Sox. Much pain over the years, but it’s not so bad now. The only manager hire that has made me cringe was Valentine even though I liked him on the Mets. GM’s? The idiot that lost Fisk. Happy Sunday!
Whyhayzee – Good stuff!! Lots of pain being a Red Sox fan in college since my roommate liked the Yankees. Bucky Dent and all that happened back then so it was brutal. 67 was great and torturous.. Tony C getting hit and Hawk Harrelson coming through are perfect examples of the good and bad. In the end, Yaz popped up and I expected a Home Run and a story book finish and it didn’t happen.
Kd17…. Bears/ Bulls… right in my wheelhouse like a hanger from Brais…. The Bears most definitely should have won one and possibly two more SB but macasky was clueless and like his grandpa threw quarters around like sewer covers. People lined up to get paid and basically we’re shown the door.. that said statistically the 86 defense was even better but the fact of the matter was Jim M couldn’t stay healthy and the greatest all around RB ever Walter was getting a little long in the tooth.. still the were still the best… I was actually at playoff game vs Washington in 88 Payton’s last game… ( fricken cold 5 and wind chill-17… again the Bears I agree 100% as for Bulls….Krause was a egomaniac to a fault… worse Jerry R was loyal to a fault… 6/8 years a good run but to they were also running on fumes… Not a soul in Chicago wanted them to break it up except The Jerry’s… and everyone was sick of his crap ( Krause) I do believe Phil was leaving no matter what as reported towards end of season many times and he used Jerry to help his cause… 85 bears.. there will never be a team more loved in Chicago ( 2016 cubs as close as you can get) another team that should have won more than one… are you from Chicago KD??? I’ve been here whole life… yeah huge Redsox fan living in Chicago… thanks to Jim Ed for that!!!
Oimtiant – Grew up the son of a CHW fan and Boston Red Sox fan living in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. As a kid, I loved the Cubs but cheered for the White Sox too to keep my mother happy. I also grew up a Packers fan until a High School friend played for the Bears along with Walter. After Starr was gone from GB I was a Bears fan only. Knowing a starter on the Bears made watching the games fun. Went to grad school in Texas so I lived among the Dallas fans who gave me grief for being a Bears fan until 1985 when they destroyed the Cowboys 44-0. Took the cover of Sports Illustrated and plastered it on my friends from door!! It was great and total revenge!! When Marshall was the first to go and Buddy couldn’t behave himself, I knew things were in trouble.
I always hated Krause and I don’t believe Phil leaves but that dynasty while fun to watch got extended for the wrong reasons. Jordan should have been banned for betting on games instead of giving him a baseball sabbatical. I loved Pippen and Rodman but Jordan Rules made a lot of the second three peat a joke. I played basketball in high school and college, and we never got to travel like Jordan did. Heck, you never saw Magic and Bird travel like Jordan did. I also hated the cherry-picking defense he played while Pippen was doing the read defensive work for the team.
Yep I grew up in Chicago but my father grew up in Boston and tried out with the Boston Braves and idolized Ted Williams and many of the Red Sox. After I saw Ted play in 1960 I was hooked. Yaz cemented it along with Lonborg.
There is an article about Chaim Bloom on WEEI Website. It explains Tampa Bays success. Bloom has been with the Red Sox for years now with mediocre success. One year the team overachieved and made it to the pennant games against Houston but lost. Tampa Bays success story story and Bloom’s struggles tell me that the real brains behind Tampa was Andrew Friedman and not Bloom. Bloom might have ridden on Friedman’s shirttail. Chaim Bloom has not made great trades or good baseball decisions since his tenure in Boston. I do not know who condoned the Mookie Betts deal but someone did and that was a bad deal. Letting Bogaerts go when Bloom had exclusive rights on his free agency was another bad decision. He dumpster dives and Kluber was a terrible signing. Letting Schwaber go when he wanted to stay was bad and staying with Dalbac at first base just shows me he was going the cheaper route with a younger player. He signed Story to take Bogaerts place. There is not a doubt in my mind that Story was damaged goods when Bloom signed him. None of his trades stand out and the way he treated Vazquez was terrible trading him to a team you were playing that night, Houston. This team is not playing well and although Sale is not his fault, not picking up better pitching this year is. Hopefully this is his last year as the President of Baseball Operations and the Red Sox can get a better GM next year.
Fwiw Friedman started with the rays in 2003 and had 5 consecutive losing records including 100 loss years before finally turning the corner in 2008 so..while its great to give him all the credit lets not forget there was a time he was not viewed in such a positive light and worse than what bloom has done especially considering tampa actually hadnt traded thier farm when he arrived..legacy takes time to build and they didnt do it in a mere 4 years in tampa
Can you name any superstars that developed from Dave Dombroski’s trades of all the highly esteemed prospects when he was GM. Really none of them developed into anything worthwhile. Moncado had one decent year and has not been great. Kopesch had major arm surgery I believe and has not been too great either. Remember prospects are simply that. I remember all the highly regarded Red Sox prospects of the 1970s and 1980s. I remember Winn Remmersawal, Joel Finch, Allen Ripley, Sam Bowen, Pat Dodson, Chico Walker, Keith McWhorter, Jim Dorsey, Gary LaFracois, Bobby Sprowl, Jeff Ledbetter, Dennis Burt, Brian Denman. None of them aspired to greatness or were even around a long time.
Al34 .. thanks for taking me down memory lane!!! While I remember almost all you mentioned I’d like to add .. Carlos Quintana… Scott cooper/ Izzy icanarnita…. And a couple of legendary… Sam horn and Phil plantier… I remembered subscribing to Redsox magazine..diehard…and they would call the section Redsox on the rise… funny was looking at cards and Pat Dobson came up!!Lol
Pool – Did Freidman really create something in TB or did he simply fail so long that all the draft picks dramatically raised the quality of the players in the farm system? Is that really something to be proud of? Massive failure to circumvent using baseball knowledge to raise the quality of the minor league players?
Freidman inherited a TON of talent when he arrived in LA. He’s been there a long time and without Bloom helping him by giving him a perennial MVP in a shortened season, LA would have as many rings under Freidman as TB has!!
If there is a winning formula one would need to review who has won for the last decade not those that have come close but haven’t won!!.
So throw out LAD, NYY, TB for sure, TOR,
2022 Houston – They did what Freidman did. Lost lots of years to build a farm system. It’s not a great system, just a system that benefitted from massive failure.
2021 Atlanta – A system people should look to as an example of how to do it right.
2020 LAD – If it wasn’t for the shortened season and Mookie they aren’t on the list since Freidman inherited many of their best players that are home grown. His drafts haven’t been good except his Beuhler pick
2019 Washington – They picked up on the system used by CHicago and Boston. They spent money on pitches and a couple of big hitters and won.
2018 Boston – DD added big pitching and JD and won.
2017 Houston – Same as above. Success through massive failure and cheating..
2016 Cubs – Used the formula that has worked best in the last decade. They bought pitching and had good core hitters.
2015 Kansas City – This one seems so long ago. A great set of players who peaked for the Manager and GM. This is more of a TB story than TB’s story. They figured out how to have a small budget and win big.
2010, 2012 2014 San Francisco. Great manager. Talented hitters who could play defense and MADBUM and other home grown and purchased pitchers!. Another good example of doing it the right way and having continued success.
2013 Boston – Again, lots of farm talent (most of which Bloom threw away beginning in 2020) and some big contracts and some league average guys having big years. A solid formula for success if you can avoid injuries in the subsequent year.
While the MEDIA hypes places like LAD, TB and others that can’t seem to win consistently, most knowledgeable fans would rather have 4 rings than a dozen and a half ALMOSTS. That’s what had separated Boston from NYY, LAD and TB before Bloom arrived. Bloom promised a similar success in the future and it would take many years as some have pointed out. My bullcrap alarm on my watch goes off when Bloom talks of the future and never defines how long it will take to get there.
Wake up. Changing a baseball program should NEVER take several years because the players in your program several years later aren’t the same as the ones you have now. So win now and reload. This magical ingredient of baking the cake over at least half a decade is a bunch of crap.
Players that are 18 today will be 23 in 5 years. Can you tell anyone with certainty whether they will be all star caliber? Bogaerts, JD, Mookie and Nate were all star caliber and we had them on the roster. Now we don’t because some day in 2 to 5 years a kid named Mayer MIGHT be all-star caliber.
I hope nobody invests their money like Bloom invests his resources. A bird in the hand is better than one in the bush 5 years from now!! Yep, you can quote me!!.
KD: “2010, 2012 2014 San Francisco. Great manager. Talented hitters who could play defense and MADBUM and other home grown and purchased pitchers!. Another good example of doing it the right way and having continued success.”
Lost in the sauce of those teams is a scout named John Barr. He’s in the scouting Hall of Fame. Still works for the Giants. We lived in the same dorm decades ago or I wouldn’t know of his existence. I think many great teams have many behind the scene people that contribute.
Have you noticed the Bogaerts’ OPS is 0.738 and Schwarber’s OPS is 0.706 so far this year? Maybe it was good move not to sign them.
Schwarber had over 40 homeruns last year which would have helped. They are both established ball players who will turn it around.
AITSTYW = I was busy checking out Mookie’s .922 OPS, JD’s .951 OPS and Nate’s 2.42 ERA and sub 1.00 WHIP.!!!
Yes Bogey is adjusting, and it might take longer. He had the disadvantage of going to a team without a close buddy like JD had in Mookie. Give Bogey time he’ll be fine and NEVER doubt he should have been signed.
Schwarber is what he is. A no glove power hitter with a bad batting average. He is streaky and can carry a team and he can disappear for large segments of the season. If you accept him at what he’s worth, you hope for his next hot streak and him carrying your team for a few weeks. I’ll take him over Refsnyder and Duvall.
The Betts trade was an ownership decision – same as lowballing Bogey and letting him walk. At least give Bloom some credit for getting rid of Price.
Yankee – Ahhhh wrong again!!!
So let me explain how the CAP works.
In 2020 the CAP was $208MM. When you pay for benefits and minor league bonuses the actual available spending is roughly $188MM.
When you do a buy down of $16MM like Bloom did he effectively reduced the available payroll from $188MM to $172MM giving other teams a $16MM advantage.
Was this smart? NOPE. Why? Because he could have thrown in some prospects to make up the difference. Naturally, you don’t throw in top tier prospects, you throw in low level prospects that have great uncertainty so you can keep the $16MM for people who will impact the team in 2020.
Also, to be clear. All transactions are presented by Bloom to a board who votes on it because they hold the purse strings. Low balling Bogey was a Bloom decision endorsed by the ownership. The Betts trade was probably a condition that Bloom had to agree to when he signed because DD was against trading Mookie. He wanted him resigned at fair market value because he could back-load the deal so the 2021 CAP was not exceeded. As it turned out, with Price opting out Boston resets the luxury tax with or without the Mookie deal.
The removal of Price by Bloom was a costly mistake in technique but the action was correct. Attaching him to Mookie was a solid strategy but I would have tried to attach him to JD so Devers could have moved to DH and our defense could have saved two dozen errors going forward.
Letting Bogaerts go when Bloom had exclusive rights on his free agency was another bad decision. He dumpster dives and Kluber was a terrible signing. Letting Schwaber go when he wanted to stay was bad
==========================
You might want to look at Bogaerts & Schwarber’s numbers.
Schwarber has a 1.3 bWAR with Philly in 1.3 years.
Bogaerts had 6 good games to start the season, and has a .662 OPS since. Both contracts could be disasters
Yoan Moncada and Michael Kopech each had one good year. 2018 BoSox was one of the most dominant teams in my lifetime.
I’d make that trade every friggin time. Such a no-brainer.
Is this what they mean when they say Dave Dumbrowski decimated the Red Sox farm? Michael Kopech, Jalen Beeks, Ty Buttrey, Santiago Espinal, Mauricio Dubon, Yoan Moncada and Travis Shaw. Yep, completely understand.