The Blue Jays dropped an 11-4 contest to the Astros last night, snapping a four-game win streak. The game was never competitive, as Toronto found itself in a six-run hole before coming up to hit. Alek Manoah put the club behind the eight ball, allowing eight of nine opponents to reach base and being charged for six runs.
It was the worst performance in a season that has been a nightmare for the 25-year-old. Manoah comes out of the appearance with a 6.36 ERA over 58 innings. ERA estimators like SIERA (5.91), xERA (6.42) and FIP (6.52) are equally grim. Manoah has earned a quality start in only two of his 13 outings, although both were scoreless seven-inning gems. The start-to-start consistency hasn’t been there; Manoah has allowed more than a run per inning in five of his appearances and gotten past the fifth inning on only three occasions.
Those results are staggering. Manoah looked like a burgeoning ace two months ago. He posted a 3.22 ERA as a rookie in 2021 and took things to a new level last year. The right-hander twirled 196 2/3 frames of 2.24 ERA ball last season, earning his first All-Star nod and a third-place finish in AL Cy Young balloting. This year, he has the ninth-worst ERA and second-highest FIP among the 96 pitchers with 50+ innings.
Manoah and skipper John Schneider didn’t have definitive answers last night. Speaking postgame, Schneider said “everything is on the table” as the club tries to get Manoah back to form (link via Keegan Matheson of MLB.com). As things stand, Manoah would be lined up to take the ball on Saturday against the Twins.
There’s nothing in the former first round pick’s performance this year that’d inspire confidence. Manoah’s 17% strikeout percentage is well below average, as is his 8.5% swinging strike rate. He’s not throwing many pitches in the strike zone and he’s not having success in getting opponents to reach for stuff off the plate. That’s a combination that’ll lead to a lot of free passes. Manoah has issued an MLB-worst 42 walks.
The results haven’t been any better when Manoah has gone after opponents. He’s not missing many bats within the strike zone and is giving up a lot of hard contact. He’s already surrendered 11 home runs after giving up just 16 longballs all of last year. His fastball velocity is down a tick and he’s not getting as much lateral movement on his slider. The breaking ball has been particularly problematic, as opponents are hitting .328 and slugging .603 in 58 at-bats ending in a slider.
Most pitchers would’ve already lost their rotation spot with those kinds of numbers. Manoah, of course, isn’t the average pitcher. The Jays have understandably deferred to his pre-2023 track record in giving him a couple months to sort things out. Without any indication a breakthrough is imminent, though, the pressure is building on the coaching staff and front office. Toronto is a win-now club in the sport’s toughest division. They’re in fourth place despite a 33-28 record. The margin for error is too narrow in the AL East to wait much longer.
Where can the Jays go from here? They don’t have an off day until next Monday, so skipping Manoah’s next start only works if they want to put extra stress on a bullpen that had to cover 8 2/3 innings yesterday. There’s no indication he’s pitching through any discomfort that’d warrant a 15-day injured list stint. Barring injury, the likeliest courses of action are to keep Manoah on turn in the rotation or option him back to Triple-A Buffalo for a reset.
Further complicating matters is the Jays’ lack of rotation depth. Toronto entered the year with a top-heavy starting staff of Manoah, Kevin Gausman, Chris Bassitt, José Berríos and Yusei Kikuchi. That quintet has taken all 61 of the team’s starts. Gausman has been great and Berríos has gotten on track after a tough 2022 campaign. Bassitt has decent results despite middling strikeout and walk numbers.
Gausman, Bassitt and Berríos are locks for three rotation spots. Kikuchi probably isn’t in immediate danger of losing his job with a 4.40 ERA but he pitched his way out of a starting spot last season and is tied for the MLB lead with 17 homers allowed this year. Kikuchi is already a fringe starter for a hopeful contender. Manoah’s a second question mark and the Jays don’t have many alternatives below them.
Mitch White and Hyun Jin Ryu have been out all season. White’s on a rehab stint in Triple-A, at least, though he’s no sure thing after posting a 5.45 ERA last year. Ryu probably won’t be back until after the All-Star Break as he rehabs from last summer’s Tommy John procedure.
Former Marlin and Pirate Zach Thompson is on the 40-man roster but has an ERA pushing 7.00 in Buffalo. Prospect Yosver Zulueta is working in short stints in Triple-A. 20-year-old Ricky Tiedemann is the organization’s top minor league pitcher but he has just 23 2/3 career frames above A-ball. Non-roster veterans Casey Lawrence and Drew Hutchison have mediocre Triple-A numbers. Bowden Francis has pitched well in four Triple-A starts this year but had a 6.59 ERA in 98 1/3 innings there last season.
Meaningful rotation help is rarely available on waivers. It’ll probably be a deadline priority but it’s uncommon for teams to make notable acquisitions in early June. Unless the Jays surprisingly jump the market, they’re not working with great options. There’s a glaring lack of depth even as Toronto has been fortunate enough to avoid any injuries to their top five starters this year. If one of Gausman, Bassitt or Berríos were to miss time at any point, the rotation could be a disaster.
What should Schneider, GM Ross Atkins and the rest of organizational leadership do? Keep running Manoah out there and hope he figures things out, or turn to a depth option while giving last year’s Cy Young finalist some time out of the spotlight?
(poll link for app users)
Needs the Halladay treatment I think. Get sent down to work through whatever it is hampering his game. If he finds consistency by mid August, great. Only thing with that is, what’s your option right now? Mitch White once rehab is completed?
I agree, AL. Manoah needs some Mel Queen-style treatment.
That was the first name that came to my mind too! Halladay was looking promising before getting absolutely pasted one season – and, as we saw, he was able to rework things and more than get back on track.
Manoah has a 5 cent head. And in typical Rogers Media fashion they built him up and put him on a pedestal as the next great Blue Jay, but his 5 cent head could not handle that much attention or pressure. When you hand the keys to a young player you need to make sure they can handle it, and when they can’t, it ends very quickly. They need to get his head right and he needs to only work with a real catcher.
Well said, Deck – Rogers Media and their endless, unfounded PR is an anchor on the Jays. Shades of Ricky Romero.
The only person who built up Manoah was himself his performance.
Blaming the owners, the management, the catchers for his struggles is ridiculous. He seemed to do just fine all of last year within the exact same environment and catchers. You’re looking for causes in all the wrong places
Franchises have no hand in guiding a young players direction? The original point was, following last year’s success, Manoah has lost his way. Manoah seems unable, at present, to manage expectations and reality. The original comment is valid. Good luck to AM.
So the organization made him in to a top 3 CY young finisher and then the organization and catcher stopped ‘guiding him’ ?
Is that really the opinion you’re going with? Sheesh.
You don’t think success can impact someone’s approach? Ever heard of sports psychologists? That’s the whole idea. “Sheesh.”
How is the catcher at fault here? Are you all of a sudden discrediting all the greatness that was Manoah over the last 2 seasons who had Kirk catch him?
So in your infinite wisdom (most likely because Joe no nothing Sidal said that it was Kirk) you think Kirk is the problem? Joe Sidal is an idiot that should never be a color commentator and Kirk may have lost something since last year but he is far from the problem..Kirk is fine behind the plate. If you stop listening to Roger’s media and listen to some outside sources, namely former big league pitchers they would tell you this is all Manoah and his confidence. He has to work through this.
Agree the kid needs to get his head and ego in check, but the catcher point is unfounded. I guess the rest of the staff would have the same results, but they don’t.
What a horrible take. The kid was top-3 in the Cy voting last year. So what, because the Toronto media hyped a young kid, after THAT kinda season, you feel duped or misled?? Classic comment from someone with absolutely no clue. Who has the 5 cent head?
>Rogers Media…put him on a pedestal
Rogers Media did not put him on the all-star team nor did they place any Cy Young votes for him. Baseball fans and experts around the league did that.
Deckard,
I can’t imagine you have any particular insight into Manoah’s mindset.
Trade him
Manoah to the Cardinals for Jack Flaherty and Brendan Donovan.
You can trade him to Seattle. I’m sure we can scrounge up a pitcher to send over.
He can start by joining a gym. Needs to drop at least 50 lbs.
This is making me think. Back in Feb a commentator mentioned that. Anthony Recker. Manaoh got all defensive on a true comment. Hasn’t been the same since. I’m thinking that the pitch clock could be an issue.
He’s too big and fat for someone that young. Shouldn’t he want to drop the weight himself? He’s so young… If he lays off the cheeseburgers and got in better condition, he could make $100M+ for his career. The days of being a big fat slob on the mound are over… you need to be in good condition to catch the ball and release it in 15 seconds
Stark, but very true. Outta shape heavies can get away with it for a while, but they notoriously hit a wall at some point, and that’s all she wrote. Lamar Hoyt would be a great comp for Manoah. Jays could consider MadBum – he couldn’t be any worse, and he’s league minimum. To make that work he’d have to ramp back up since he hasn’t pitched in over a month. Mitch White fills the void in the mean time. Manoah needs to spend as much time as possible at AAA to work out his issues. But job one for him MUST be to shed the weight.
It appears the Blue Jays only like to point out overweight, middle-aged coaches on other teams, not their own obese ball players in their 20s.
That’s for sure! He’s a young guy with a chance to make hundreds of millions over his career while playing a game for a living. Isn’t that great reason to always be in top shape? If he has weight problems at this age just image him in 5 years. I’m offing this guy for prospects before it’s too late.
People also said the same thing about Vlad, who since has remained and played quite well in spite of said weight.
Vlad has lost a ton of weight since his rookie season
Well that’s certainly not substantiated in his official weight, which suggests he’s lost all of 10 pounds since debuting.
That’s why there is a story about him losing 22 lbs in a single month. Any one with eyes can see his body has changed dramatically since 2019
This. As a person who has struggled with a weight problem all of my life, I recognize it when I see it in others, too. When I watch Manoah on the mound, I see a very unhealthy guy who is a beat or two away from a heart attack. If he can’t get a handle on food addiction, he’s not going to survive in baseball. FWIW, I said the same thing last year. It has only gotten worse.
This is what I was thinking. I’m not a Jays fan so I only see him a handful of times a season but earlier in the year when they were playing the Rays I said to my son that he looked out of shape. He’s always been big, but I remembered him being solid the last couple of seasons. This year I thought he looked like his body has gotten soft. Now since I don’t watch him all the time I can’t say for sure but it seemed that way to me as a fan of another ALE team.
Dude talked wayyy too much and forgot how to back it up
Remember before the season when everyone gave Anthony Recker grief for his comments about Manoah? Now, near every Jays fan is saying that Manoah should hit the gym more.
Funny how those things work out…I knew from how Manoah personally responded to the criticism from Recker that there was some fire behind that smoke. He took it way too personally for it not to have some truth to it.
jays not having a 6th or 7th starter is compounding the issue. Atkins has really done a poor job of having depth in the upper minors the last few years.
manoah’s in quick sand right now, they need to give him a break and let the natural talent rise back up.going to take a while, very unfortunate. With Berrios rebounding and Bassitt being good, the jays would have had a chance at a dream rotation if Alek was even 80% of what he was last year
All teams, but especially teams with contention hopes, need to plan for using eight starters.
Absolutely.
jays the last few years have been extremely lucky with IL hours, their stats have stayed on the field but it’s not sustainable
Or 5 shortstops.
Maybe he got it right?
si.com/mlb/2023/02/02/blue-jays-alek-manoah-blasts…
Interesting. The guy sounds like a jerk. It could be his problem is all mental makeup. Or maybe success came too easily and now that he’s failing it’s like an avalanche.
He doesn’t just sound like a jerk; he looks and acts like one on the mound too. We’re not just talking some stuff here and there; it’s so extreme it’s as if he’s doing it on purpose just to mess with people (but methinks he isn’t messing with people, but rather is just being his “true self”, yikes!).
@heiniemanush
Fangraphs has a pretty good write up of it too.
blogs.fangraphs.com/alek-manoah-is-falling-apart-a…
Thanks for the Fangraphs link. I think that article sums up everything that’s wrong with him.
Last night the Astros broadcast noted that his slider “rolls in there” and is easy to see it will not be a strike. Last year hitters chasing that pitch was the key to his success.
This is the difference between an ace who can get hitters out inside the zone and those who rely on deception and chasing outside the zone.
There is a very fine line for any MLB player to walk for success. His stuff is a little less this year and he is suddenly a batting practice pitcher.
He needs to regain the sharpness of his slider or he won’t be an effective MLB pitcher again.
He needs to go the Halladay route and figure it out in the minors. Bowden Francis has looked good this year and should be given a shot to prove himself in the majors. No time like this Saturday to find out
Alek Manoah versus last year—
========================
Exit velocity up from 87.0mph to 88.8mph
Hard hit % up from 31.6% to 43.3%
BB rate up ftom 6.5% to 14.9%
HR% up from 2.0% to 3.9%
BABIP up from .245 to .324
========================
He’s been wild. When he is in the strike zone, they’re not missing it.
Opinion:
Maybe something is wrong with his mechanics. Or he has an undisclosed injury. Or simply teams have figured him out and he needs to mix up his pitches better. He is listed at 6‘6“ 285 pounds. Maybe he needs to lose some weight and get in better shape.
His weight was fine last year
It’s really weird how everyone on the internet wants to rush to point out the weight of a professional athlete. Are all y’all in great shape?
Alek is in a profession where his weight is one of the factors that determines whether he is a success or not. His ability to keep his weight down is paramount to his sustained success.
It is a well-known fact that the more weight you carry, the more stress it puts on every joint, ligament, and bone in your body. Weight affects everyone at a different age. It may not be a problem now, but it could be a problem in the future for him. He could suddenly reach a point where say +5 pounds tips everything out of balance.
I don’t know what his weight was last year, only what it is right now. 285 pounds of muscle last year could easily be 230 pounds of muscle and 55 pounds of fat this year and I wouldn’t know.
His weight is just one of the factors that I listed. Regardless of your take on it, it is still a factor that needs to be considered.
He was the same weight last year and was a top starter in the league.
He lost his slider which was his key pitch.
So was weight a problem for David Wells, Roger Clemens, CC Sabathia, Bartolo Colon and so on? The answer is no. So stop this silliness. If he was out of shape then yes but the guy is in great shape, he just don’t have a George Springer body. By the way how did having a “perfect body type”” (in the eyes of the public) hold up for Springer over his time in TO so far?
Just interjecting a debatable point I made to my brother and I haven’t seen it mentioned here: perhaps Manoah is a victim of the no-shift rules (as well as the pitch clock)???
There is a saying used many times that “he is an all pro from the neck down.” This cannot be used in this instance.
There is a saying used many times that “he is an all pro from the neck down.” This cannot be used in this instance…..
Weight issue mixed with the pitch clock and how much more frequently pitches are being thrown could show the difference from this year to last year
CC Sabathia’s Right Knee glares at you.
I’m 44 and I’m in much better shape than Manoah as far as weight is concerned. And the fact that he has access to world class equipment and trainers, makes it more embarrassing.
Now do bank account comparisons. What’s embarrassing then?
Baseball-reference has Alek’s career earnings at $745,650.
A 44-year old, working full-time since 22, would only need to earn $34,000 for 22 years to eclipse Alek’s total.
How’s that for a comparison?
Alek was a 1st round draft pick with a 4.5 million dollar signing bonus. And his career earnings are 6.4 million.
Want to try again?
No, I don’t want to try again. I give up, you win the internet for today. I don’t care.
It’s really weird how people take gentle, reality-based comments on weight and health and try to make them out to be toxic. It is well understood by health professionals that carrying extra weight tends to lead to a negative health impact over time; naturally, with how tight the margin for error can be with professional athletes and how close to their best they often need to be to succeed (especially MLB pitchers), too much weight is the sort of thing that can be no problem at all…until it gradually or even suddenly becomes one.
The comments that are fair to take issue with are ones that imply he is lazy or “fat” or things like that. But there are professional athletes who do carry some unnecessary weight, and the concerns that it will be a drag on performance sooner or later are often eventually justified.
And your last bit makes zero sense. Why does it matter what any given person’s shape is? Anyone can analyze the performance of a professional athlete; it’s a *mental* exercise. The attempts to gatekeep sports analysis to those who have played at a high level are nothing more than thin skin. The body of a professional athlete impacts his ability to perform, and so it is perfectly in the scope of fair analysis – as long as people are fair in how they look at it (which too often isn’t the case).
@redsoxu571 is your theory is flawed. You are basing the fact of excess weight by a persons body shape and thus assumption. There are many cases in the real world of people that look to be in great shape and aren’t and there are many who look to have the “Kirk shape” or a very “frail” shape and are in perfect conditioning.
In my Dad’s extended family there were several people with the “Kirk shape” that could lug a quarter of moose for miles but the “great shape weight lifter” could not even handle the quarter on his back for 10 feet before he feel over exhausted.
So no assumption that a body shape means you are carrying extra weight and thus maybe a little out of shape is flawed,
Lol okay man, you’re being intentional naive.
You have hurtbags on the internet calling him
Fat all last year while he was dominating and now doubling down. Sorry that’s not toxic enough for you.
“The body of a professional athlete impacts his ability to perform, and so it is perfectly in the scope of fair analysis”
If he had all of sudden gained a lot of weight then sure, but he came in the same size a year removed from a top 3 CY young so ya, why are we talking about his weight? Show me signs a 25 year olds body broke down that was fine the previous year with no major injuries or differences that we know about. Careful falling off your high horse there bud
To be fair the weight would hurt him alot more this year with the pitch clock. It could also be mental, but conditioning became alot more important without being able to take more time in between pitches.
Maybe he should worry about his own game instead of spending the entire offseason calling other pitchers cheaters 🙂
If he’s not pitching hurt, then maybe he hasn’t responded well to the pitch clock?
I think you are right …The pitch clock.
I wonder what people are thinking who chose “other”? Tie him to the stake and burn him, I say!!!
Facing the Twins offense might be the best thing for him, honestly.
So everyone thinks it’s physical and not mental? It’s a different weight on his shoulders.
If it’s a mechanics issue, it’s probably best if he goes to AAA where they can control his usage, limit his innings while getting him back on track. Difficult to do that at the MLB level in games that matter.
MLB batters have figured out his slider and destroying it. He had short success but needs to realize he can’t do the same thing over and over again at this level. Send him down to see if he can fix the issues. If not, DFA him and move on. Guy is a decent bullpen at best and a terrible 5th starter at worst.
I do remember calling for the Jays to trade him and everyone jumped on me for making such a claim. I’m glad I was right…
Bless your heart.
At his best, he’s a 3rd place Cy Young finisher.
He’s at his worst now (because no MLB clubs put up with this forever), which is essentially unplayable at the MLB level.
lol okay Kenton
That should say okay Lebron. Weird auto correct
I do remember calling for the Jays to trade him and everyone jumped on me for making such a claim. I’m glad I was right…
=======================================================================================
But you weren’t right!
You were spewing nonsense and rightfully got called out for it.
The man was 3rd in Cy Young voting last year after pitching to an ERA of 2.24 and WHIP of 0.99. The year before that in 20 starts he had an ERA of 3.22 and WHIP of 1.05.
Even as bad as he has been this year his 3 year average ERA and WHIP is 2.57 and 1.01 and in 64 career starts his ERA and WHIP sit at 3.19 and 1.15. No you don’t trade Alex Manoah, you either send him to the minors to work on his mechanics or put him in the bullpen and hope he figures it out.
@lamars
At the time, that’s why I was calling to trade him. It would have brought a lot of return back to the club and another club would deal with these issues. Instead, we got zero and he’s headed back to the minors soon enough. But that’s the difference between the Jays & Rays.
@Old York
At that time the Rays nor any other team in MLB would have traded away Manoah. Sorry, I don’t see how you don’t get this.
@lamars
Rays wouldn’t have kept one-trick ponies.
@ Old York –
One trick pony?
Did the Rays trade away S. McClanahan? No, his numbers are similar to Manoah and Manoah had been the better pitcher until the start of this season.Did they trade away D. Rasmussen who had 38 total starts under his belt before this season? No!Did they trade away T. Glasnow that has all of 39 starts for the Rays? Again no.
So if Manoah who has been better than McCLanahan, Glasnow and Rasmussen why would they trade him away but the Rays do not trade the others?
All I know is, I definitely regret drafting him in fantasy
He has NO trade value with his mouth, weight or his performance.
Nothing but a set-up guy
There are plenty of examples of starters needing AAA time to make some adjustments. Halladay and Scherzer jump out as two guys who had to take a step back before making a huge leap forward. They’re both consummate pros at their craft. How, and whether, a player who has had MLB success can handle that is huge. Ego has to take a backseat, which may very well be a problem here. Don’t have to like it, but the club doesn’t have to tolerate this performance either.
Unlike some big contractors always on the shelf he at least pitches like Corbin.
To reinforce my earlier point: look at the top pitchers in the game; Cole: McLanahan; Gallen; Verlander; Strider. What do they all have in common besides W and L? They are all big dudes…that are in top shape. Manoah is the outlier. The Jays need to bring in a nutritional person and a Dave Stewart type to explain to him that, with every additional cheeseburger, he moves further toward Beer League softball.
CC Sabathia says hello.
Naming one outlier doesn’t make your case. 99% of mlb pitchers are in great shape and have their weight under control
Seen him lately? Plus, he won 250 games in MLB and has a WS ring. So, please.
You were consider that Sabathia and the other players you mentioned earlier are the exceptions and not the rule??
Not saying weight is causing Alek’s issues, cus we don’t know. But one could easily surmise that getting in better shape would not hurt him at worst and very well could benefit him.
Other than the eye test of his body shape (so your assuming) makes you think he is not in great shape?
@Tigers3232 that list is long so you are saying there are a lot of exceptions to the rule? At what point are they no longer exceptions?
Chris Carpenter, Babe Ruth, Fernando, and a ton of guys from the black and white TV days it seems like every third pitcher from that area was shaped like Ruth.
First off you are making presumptions on Babe Ruth based off pictures of him late in his career. If you look at pictures of him earlier in his career he was in great shape and you can tell even with the bulky jerseys they wore.
And no listing 5 players dating back to the 90s is in no way whatsoever long. Any given year every team has 5 designated starters just to begin the season. Let alone those who fill spots and bullpens.
As far as his build a simple Google search if images of him will show he’s nowhere near being in peak shape. He clearly has a beer gut and lacks definition in his arms of someone who trains regularly and is cognizant of their diet. Anyone who has ever worked out regularly can easily spot the lack of definition and Anyone who is not blind can spot the beer gut.
And to try and argue that anyone would not benefit from being healthier is absolutely laughable let alone arguing it would not benefit a pro athlete. You are either just being foolish and naive or to stubborn to admit it.
Sounds like you might be a little stubborn or naive yourself. Did you see CC Sabbathia pitch or B. Colon, D. Wells or Clemens? All 3 had beer guts and pitched exceptionally well. He was too until this season, so what is the cause of his implosion thus far? Is it the pitch clock? Are his mechanics all jacked up or is he hiding an injury? It’s not the weight issue as this is his 3rd season pitching being overweight.
My guess is it’s a combination of the pitch clock, mechanics and maybe some loss of confidence. Which is why he was sent down to the Florida Complex instead of Triple -A.
> Did you see CC Sabbathia pitch or B.
> Colon, D. Wells or Clemens? All 3 had
> beer guts and pitched exceptionally well.
CC Sabathia’s Right Knee glares at you.
@Lamars, I’m not blaming Manoah’s issues solely on his weight. But to argue that being in better shape would not benefit him in any way seems absolutely absurd does it not??
Tigers-
Well of course that is stating the obvious, but that isn’t the case being made here. It’s because he is out of shape that his numbers are suffering which is far from the truth. If he was healthy what would the excuse be then?
When you’re doing good we will praise you, but once you struggle we will find a way to put you down. Here this man is obviously struggling with his mechanics but the first thing mentioned and constantly mentioned is his weight. It’s the same thing that was happening to Kirk when he was slumping. Now that he is hitting .260 and have seemed to righting the ship all the fat jokes have disappeared.
@Lamars, we don’t know what the excuse would b or if one would even b necessary. Point being is the weight might get overlooked if he’s performing. When someone who is out of shape starts struggling it is going to b criticized rather quickly as it should be. He is a pro athlete his body and health are the tools of his trade, he should b protecting it as its what pays the bills.
Hemlock –
CC Sabbathia pitched for 19 years in the majors averaging 34 starts a year. In 2014, CC’s 14th year in the big leagues he had right knee surgery and only made 8 starts. That was the only time he didn’t make more than 18 starts in a season. The only other times were in 2008 and 2009 where he made 18 and 17 starts.
So those knees survived 35,771 innings pitched in 19 years from a 300lb body. Not saying CC, Wells or Manoah couldn’t stand to lose weight. But it has nothing to do with Manoah and his mechanics or being bothered by the pitch clock.
@Viveleempireevil
David Wells, line 1..
Again…150 wins and a perfecto…and 2 WS rings. So…
He’s required to work a lot faster with the new clock. Not sure his body or head are up to the increased demand.
Send Manoah to minors to work it out. put him on nutritional diet. Fill in with Plesac (almost free) for couple starts. He has been bad, but has been decent prior. He has experience. Nothing to lose since options are few and one is needed.
Send him to Camp Hope with Tony Perkis who can help him with his PerkiSystem.
As a manager, I’d check in with him and see how he’s feeling. Maybe all he needs is to be skipped in the rotation once or a rest, maybe a trip to the minors to build confidence is the solution too.
Manoah is a complete mess and his futures being crushed. Send him him away and get him right.I love the guy, but I don’t care if he comes back this season, next season or the one after.
If a AAA hole filler, free agent, KBO, NPB CPBL veteran can give anything close to the total garbage Manoah is right now then go do it!
Also, my eyeballs wanted me to say get him in shape physically whatever that is for him.
On another note it is unacceptable that this organization has such terrible depth. Their execs have been on the job way too long now for that.
Trade him to a team that face the Astros with him in the rotation 2-3 more times!
If the Jays had a pitcher in AAA who was pitching well, Manoah would be sent down. He’d probably benefit from working through his struggles away from the spotlight. Unfortunately, Buffalo’s starting pitching has been dreadful. Hutchinson, White, Lawrence, Zuleta have been awful. Francis has been okay, but isn’t stretched out. He’s started 5 games, but has only thrown 18.2 innings. There is no organizational pitching depth
At this point, it does no good to keep running him out there every 5 days. Something is clearly off here. Not saying injury, but mentally this has to be killing him. Relief would be stupid too. He’s not a relief pitcher. Let him go down for 2-3 weeks and see if he can get right. This dude was absolutely money last year, all year. Way too good of a pitcher for this. Go down, get right, come back. The only recipe for him at this time.
The thing about Halladay — and nobody is a bigger fan than I — is that it gave Jays fans the impression that any struggling starter with good stuff can be fixed with half a season in low-A ball.
Halladay worked through some mental/mindset issues and reworked his delivery in a safe place (A ball) with a pitching genius. That was a once in a lifetime event. Alek Manoah might well be a HoF pitchers when all is said and done, but simply sending him to the low minors for a year isn’t going to fix it unless there is a serious plan to remake him.
A good conditioning plan might be a start, and there’s nobody who conditioned harder than Doc.
Correct. The doc situation was unique and rare, which is why we all remember it from 30 years ago.
There are no similarities
This is not unique, many pitchers and hitters are sent back to the minors after struggling in the majors, even Mike trout. The only thing unique about Halladay is they sent him all the way back to A ball
Doc rebuilt his entire delivery, that’s pretty unique
Dl stint for “arm fatigue” then send him to the Performance Complex in Dunedin to figure out why his mechanics are out of whack. Guy from the Athletic had a great story a few days ago noticing some changes in hand and arm position differences in his delivery when compared to last season.
Every claiming that it’s his weight being a problem and the pitch clock… he’s been crap from the first pitch of nearly every game. Fatigue and pitch clock issues wouldn’t even be in play. That’s just grasping at straws.
His mechanics are not out of whack. Dan Plesac and Al Leiter broke down his mechanics of this year vs. last year and they are exactly the same.
Harold Reynolds said it best last night “he needs to work through this”
I don’t want to misquote the rest so I will summarize. He basically said the game was over last night when they took Mona out and instead should have left him in and let him work through it. They were down 6 runs with only one out and two on and had to dump the pen so why not let him ride it out and see if he can’t find something.
For all those who are about to say BUT they could have come back well Harold addressed that by saying why wait till now before going to get him? They were going to dump the pen either way and its not like they didn’t know this could happen. In other words if they were worried about winning they would have been prepared and went and got him before it got that far.
It would be way more of a valid point though if he were in shape last year and then came into this year way out of shape. Why is his weight a problem now, was it what caused him to be in the Cy Young race last year? It seems like a lazy conclusion to come to imo.
My thinking exactly. This variable did not change, and it did not seem to cause an injury leading up to this.
Bingo
I personally dislike Manoah quite a bit for his perpetual whining and huge head he seems to have developed. That being said… these comments about his weight are ridiculous. He almost won a Cy Young last year being in the same shape. CC Sabathia notoriously tried to lose weight to “get better” and he had to stop because he felt it was making him worse. CC topped out at nearly 300 pounds and was one of the best pitchers of his generation.
Manoah’s 2022 SIERA was 3.85 and his xFIP was 3.97. Even if you just use FIP (3.35), he was vastly overperforming his 2.24 ERA. Regression was always going to happen. Combine that with players/orgs figuring out his sequencing better now, and likely some mechanical issues given his velo drops on his 3 main pitches… I think it’s a bit of a perfect storm of ‘everything that could go wrong did go wrong.’
I think a MiLB stint will take a lot of pressure off and give him a chance to figure out what he’s doing wrong. I DO think a lot of that pressure on him was self-inflicted due to his massive ego and penchant for trash-talking… but I’m sure most people would look at their 25 year old selves and cringe a bit at some of the things we did too. Hopefully he takes this as a good learning and growth opportunity.
As an Orioles fan, I say leave him in the rotation as long as he wants!
The first thing to do is to bring aboard a swing/long man, either by waiver or trade. That keeps Manoah covered in the rotation. When Ryu comes back then option him to the minors.
Sending him down means bring up someone that will perform better. That person isn’t there. Sending him to the pen means bullpen games every 5th day so he would get a turn to pitch anyways. Not good.
He could take his time and get pitcher violation balls here and there by design, but at least he’ll be able to pace himself and focus, plus he’s already throwing enough balls anyway, so it might not hurt him much.
I know you’re trying to come up with a solution to Manoah’s issues but have you looked at batting stats in specific pitcher’s counts. It’ll make things worse for him giving batter free balls.
AA staff have two potentials. Could speed up their timeline and see what Dallas and Klof can do.
Kloffenstein and Dallas aren’t even a ranked prospect on Fangraphs or MLB Pipeline. Both are starting to look like org filler.
Hook him up with a personal trainer and dietitian so he can get in shape. He looks like a stadium beer vendor.
@meckert
The Jays like many other organizations already employ these professionals.
Well…it ain’t workin’ Vlad is overweight. So is Manoah and Kirk and a few others. No wonder they fall out so early.
With that girth, he should have developed a great forkball by now.
Instead he’s been serving up meatballs.
Gausman Kikuchi Berrios and 2 dogs in the rotation. At least Bassett is house trained and can solve puzzles
Bassett hound is house trained. It’s all over the papers
I see what you did there. And what it did
Maybe Recker was right after all
so much for his smugness and whining.
No one cares what you have to say when you suck.
Give him to Atlanta. They’ll fix him.
Kid is useless junk LOL donezo bum.
Man no love Peterson on this chain !?! That was suppose to be his ace spot by now. Former top 10 prospect is putting it together ! Put an opener out there for the first inning then let him come in for 4-5 innings. Hole filled !