The Cubs announced to reporters, including Meghan Montemurro of the Chicago Tribune, that they have selected the contract of catcher Luis Torrens. They had a couple of vacancies on their 40-man roster and won’t need to make a corresponding move.
Torrens, 27 in May, has been with the Mariners over the past few years. He had a solid showing in 2021, hitting 15 home runs in 108 games. His .243/.299/.431 batting line amounted to a wRC+ of 101, indicating he was a bit better than the league average hitter overall, though catchers generally produce a bit less than that. Unfortunately, he couldn’t maintain that in 2022. His strikeout rate ticked up from 26.2% to 30.1% as he hit .225/.283/.298 for a wRC+ of 72.
On the defensive side of things, Torrens hasn’t been graded very well. He has -22 Defensive Runs Saved behind the plate in his career while also getting poor marks from the FanGraphs framing metric. Given that bat-first reputation, his drop off at the plate last year put a dent in his value and the Mariners non-tendered him at season’s end.
The Cubs brought Torrens aboard on a minor league deal and will now have him up with the big league team after a strong spring performance. He hit a pair of home runs and slashed .273/.385/.636. The Cubs already have Tucker Barnhart and Yan Gomes on the roster but will apparently go with a three-catcher setup for now. Torrens has had very brief showings at first, second and third base in his big league career and could potentially fill in elsewhere, though the Cubs also have plenty of other options for those spots. Eric Hosmer should get regular work at first with Trey Mancini also in the mix and prospect Matt Mervis potentially jumping in at some point. Nico Hoerner will be at second while some combination of Patrick Wisdom, Nick Madrigal, Edwin Ríos and Miles Mastrobuoni will cover third.
The club doesn’t really have an explicit designated hitter, perhaps allowing them to rotate those players through that spot. The right-handed bat of Torrens could potentially platoon with lefties like Barnhart, Hosmer, Rios, Mervis or Mastrobuoni. In his strong 2021 season, Torrens hit nine of his home runs against lefties and slashed .275/.311/.542 for a wRC+ of 131.
I always think about just how happy a guy has to feel to get this news.
Happy for Luis!
Yay Luis , big fan of his in Seattle. Cubbie fans will love him. Seems to come up in big spots. Sad to see him go.
I believe in his ability to hit lefties!
Definitely a good idea. Amaya was the only other catcher on the 40 man and he wouldn’t be ready if Gomes or Barnhart get injured.
He had good numbers in 2021, so hopefully he does good things for the Cubs.
He definitely looked pretty good this spring. I liked both of the guys they picked up to replace Higgins and build a bridge to Aliendo. I still have zero faith in Amaya. Rossie sure does love his 3 C setup.
Unclemike1526, this is the sort of news that makes us look forward eagerly to the season ahead, because you never know when a guy can turn things around a bit.
Torrens disappointed us a little with the Mariners, true, but with different coaches in a new city, who knows?
I hope he gets things fixed and has a great year.
Former Rule 5 guy sticking around. Good to see
Congrats, Luis. Have a great year!
Something I always wonder about with Torrens is did the Rule 5 situation negatively impact him?
There’s a development aspect to it, like him having a wRC+ of 16 and riding the bench at 21 probably wasn’t ideal for his growth. But there’s also now the fact that he’s out of options at 26 years old which can be a tough spot to be in. Happy he made the team because he’s always had potential but kind of a crazy career path so far.
RIOS is the Sleeper. LAD did not give him a Fair Chance. CUBS fans will love his Power.
I’ve been loving Rios during spring training – he really crushed the ball.
10 hits and 7 of them were extra-bases (2 doubles, 1 triple, 4 homers). He could be a real difference-maker for the Cubs.
Part of a great trade by DiPoto. Austin Nola, Austin Adams and Dan Altavilla for Ty France, Andres Munoz, Torrens, and Taylor Trammell Which brings up a question. Whatever happened to the poster that always called DiPoto “Dip Dip”? He hated him and blamed him for the Angels slide.
The Cubs’ three catchers don’t even collectively equal one good backstop. I already miss Willson Contreras.
The Cubs Catching is greatly improved as most P’s don’t like their C’s hopping around like jumping beans behind the plate. It’s no great secret why Wilsson didn’t C much last year as most P’s preferred having Gomes behind the plate. As cool as it looks on TV, the amount of strikes he took away from his pitchers by jumping up and blocking the umpire to catching a LH pitchers sliders backhanded( Which drove Lester freaking crazy), is what kept his defensive metrics low. Let’s see what Wainwright and Mikkolas think about him hopping around and who C’s them. His bat is missed but that’s all.
Which Cubs pitchers told you that? Last time I checked, Jon Lester wasn’t on the 2022 team. Keep making excuses for the Ricketts family to be cheap. They love fans like you.
You don’t think Contreras was on the team for several years with Lester?
I know for a fact that Contreras and Lester were teammates for several years. That has nothing to do with why, according to Unclemike 1526, they preferred Gomes.
*they (i.e. Cubs pitchers) preferred Gomes.
I can’t speak to anything between Lester and Contreras, but it’s common knowledge the Cubs preferred a catcher more skilled in game prep, pitch-calling, and pitch-framing than Contreras (who is low-ranked in those categories). If they wanted to extend/re-sign Contreras, they probably wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) have hired a catcher as manager.
Common knowledge? What is your source? A pro-Ricketts Cubs blog? I agree that they shouldn’t have hired the meatheaded David Ross as manager. But hey, he works for peanuts.
There are many sources, It’s not like it’s a secret.
The Athletic:
“Contreras is not a well-acclaimed receiver, and the elite clubs often value defensive contributions from catchers.”
and
“Defensively, Contreras is not an accomplished framer…”
If you want more sources, I highly recommend a little-known website for searching called Google.
The Ricketts is cheap refrain is just old and tired. He spent 17 million on Tallion, 17 million on Bellinger and 25 million on Swanson and because he didn’t pay 16 million a year for your favorite player Dougie he’s cheap? Maybe you should look up cheap in the dictionary and see what it actually means. Just because they didn’t spent the money on an inferior C that most of the pitching staff didn’t like last year is that cheap? Confused minds want to know. I hope Happ isn’t your next favorite player because he isn’t getting extended either and all you had to do was watch the spring games and look at the OF’s they have to figure that out.
You make a lot of assumptions and state a lot of counterfactuals. Cheap is a relative term when it comes to professional sports. Not willing to pay premium money for premium players and instead signing a bunch of has-beens, never-weres, and mediocrities is indeed cheap, especially for a big market team such as the Cubs. Having Eric Hosmer and Patrick Wisdom at your infield corners? Yeah, that’s cheap. Not investing more in scouting, minor league development, and the international free agent market? Yeah, that’s cheap, too.
What is your inside source of information that the most of the Cubs’ pitching staff “didn’t like” Contreras last year? You state that as if it were an irrefutable fact.
And for the record, I don’t want Ian Happ back. He’s an above average player at best.
Well at least we agree on something! Thumbs up!
I’m occasionally right.
I like a lot of your stuff, I just don’t feel Contreras is a huge loss. In fact, I think it’s addition by subtraction. But we’ll see.
Just about every pitcher has been interview and mentioned how refreshing it is to throw to Gomes and now Barnhart. If that doesn’t do it for you, the ERA and OPS of the starters in ’22 provide the data to support the issues Mike is talking about. When Gomes caught, the pitcher’s ERA and OPS dropped significantly.
And if you’re able to read between the lines of interviews with Ross, Hoyer and Hawkins, it’s pretty clear why they decided to move on.
Also, history doesn’t support the worn out, lazy thinking that Ricketts are cheap. Just because they didn’t pay Contreras, doesn’t mean the Cubs are cheap.
If you had more than one season’s worth of data to cite, that might be a more persuasive argument. Which infielders and outfielders started in those games? In what ballparks were these games played? All those factors certainly had an impact on the pitchers’ ERA and OPS numbers as well. It’s easy to cherry-pick defensive stats to mean whatever you want them to mean. And if you actually think Yan Gomes or Tucker Barnhart are better overall players than Willson Contreras, I respectfully question your judgment.
Reading between the lines is a subjective exercise. Until Jed Hoyer and Carter Hawkins have built a championship team or two, I don’t take what they have to say very seriously.
Actually, Cubs history since about 2018 completely supports the thinking that the Ricketts are cheap. That’s when they started putting restrictions on Theo Epstein’s spending and paved the way for his departure. The Ricketts are far more interested in overdeveloping Wrigleyville than putting a quality product on the field. If you want to continue to carry water for them, that’s your choice.
1200 innings is a data set that is plenty big to mitigate lineup changes and then draw a conclusion. Certainly more sound than to dismiss the data as you have. Adding another year would provide additional variance considering age, injury and roster turnover.
No, I don’t think Contreras is better at handling a pitching staff than Gomes and Barnhart. Obviously Ross, Hoyer and Hawkins prefer their skill set over Contrerasa’. And I certainly believe their opinion has more credibility than your opinion.
2018 Cubs were #4 in payroll, $2M behind the Dodgers. 2019 & 2020 the Cubs were over the luxury tax. They’re $5M from going over the luxury tax in what most consider a transition year. They could have keep Ortega and Hayward in center, Kept Higgins, not signed Tallion, Suzuki and Stroman. None of that would indicate that they are cheap. Again that’s just lazy, repeating something without thinking it through.
It’s no big secret, Except to this guy I guess , That Lester hated pitching to Contreras. Why Ross was his personal C and after that Contreras only caught Lester when there wasn’t a better option. It’s also no big secret that when Darvish was here he preferred Caratini for the same reason. Contreras Metrics and pitch framing have always been poor and his rifling the ball all over trying to pick guys off altered the pace of the game and most P’s don’t like it as it screws with their timing and, If you don’t know any of that you’ve been living in a cave.
I don’t dismiss the data. I merely point out that it’s not as definitive as you think it is. There is still much in baseball that cannot easily be quantified.
My point about Contreras was not only about who better handles pitching staffs. I clearly stated that I was talking about who the better overall players are. Willson Contreras is clearly superior than Barnhart or Gomes in this regard.
Your 2018-2020 payroll numbers include sunk costs to which the Cubs had already committed in earlier seasons. The Ricketts could have easily afforded to keep spending after the 2015-2016 splurge but chose not to. They can also easily afford to pay the luxury tax. If you’re okay with some of the highest ticket prices in the game for “Mediocrity by Design,” that’s your business. I’m not.
Pitchers can be quirky and prefer to have personal catchers, but that may say more about the pitchers than the catchers. Your statement about the effects of Contreras showing off his arm is a counterfactual. Unless you have some inside source of information on the Cubs, you don’t know that.
I have never once claimed that Contreras is a great defensive catcher. But he is a much better overall player than Barnhart, Gomes, and Torrens.
The Cubs are not an elite club. As much as I hate to admit it, the Cardinals are. And they signed Contreras to a big contract. Do you think you know more than the Cardinals’ front office?
Defensive metrics are a work in progress and don’t tell us as much as some people think they do. Framing will soon be rendered irrelevant as the game moves toward robo-umpires or technology that helps them better call balls and strikes. Even if we agree that Contreras isn’t a great defensive catcher, his offensive abilities more than compensate for that. I’d have less of a problem with the Cubs having defense-first catchers if they had more good hitters elsewhere in the lineup. They don’t.
Your Google comment was almost clever. Good job.
My Google comment was a response to “What is your source? A pro-Ricketts Cubs blog?” The information is easily available and it took me a minute to find two different Athletic articles referencing his defensive skills.
This isn’t just metrics – it involves game prep and pitch calling (which won’t become irrelevant due to ABS systems)..The Cardinals value Contreras’ offense and believe they can improve his soft defense. I wish them (and Contreras) good luck.The Cubs couldn’t manage to get on the same page with him.
I’m sorry to lose Willson’s passion and bat, but the Cubs FO didn’t want to move forward with him for the reasons mentioned – and you can’t dismiss it as simply due to the money since they’re paying Swanson more (and for longer) than the Cards are paying Contreras.
One team made a smart move and one made a bad move – we’ll see how it pans out over time.
You said it’s common knowledge that the Cubs preferred a catcher more skilled in game prep, pitch-calling, and pitch-framing than Contreras. Neither of the two quotes from the Athletic you had cited state this.
My comment that started this whole thread was in response to the Cubs’ announcement about Luis Torrens making the team. According to the piece above, “He has -22 Defensive Runs Saved behind the plate in his career while also getting poor marks from the FanGraphs framing metric.” Based on that, Torrens doesn’t seem to be the kind of catcher you believe the Cubs prefer. So why sign him? (I’ll answer that for you: Because the Cubs have gone back to being cheap.)
Game prep is about as meaningful as “hustle,” “grittiness,” and other assorted baseball cliches as a way to assess a player. Knocking Contreras for this skill, or lack thereof, sounds pretty unconvincing. Sabermetrics took over as the primary method of pitch selection a long time ago, meaning that pitch-calling is not as important as it once was.
For what it’s worth, I never wish the Cardinals good luck. They usually don’t need it.
Yes, the Cubs couldn’t manage to get on the same page with Contreras because they refused to pay him what he’s worth. That’s not the good reason that you seem to think it is.
The Cubs possess the financial resources to have kept Contreras and also to have signed Dansby Swanson (the worst of the four free agent shortstops available this offseason). If the Cubs had signed only one, I would have much rather had them sign Contreras. Swanson has all the makings of being Jason Heyward 2.0 (another player the Braves deemed unworthy of a long-term contract). I’m amazed by all the Cubs fans who make excuses for the miserliness of the Ricketts family. They’re laughing all the way to the bank while the fans get what someone else refers to as “Mediocrity by Design.”
If the Cubs had a history of making better personnel decisions than the Cardinals, I might be inclined to agree with you. But they don’t, so I won’t.
“You said it’s common knowledge that the Cubs preferred a catcher more skilled in game prep, pitch-calling, and pitch-framing than Contreras. Neither of the two quotes from the Athletic you had cited state this.”
It’s common knowledge that Contreras is not considered good defensively and the fact that the Cubs wanted catchers that ARE is clear from the people they’ve literally signed.. Torrens is simply a bat-first backup that can pinch-hit in close games and also play 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. He won’t be around long if he doesn’t hit well, while Gomes and Barnhart are locked in for the season..
“Game prep is about as meaningful as “hustle,” “grittiness,” and other assorted baseball cliches as a way to assess a player.”
Game prep is actual work that the pitcher and catcher do every game – so not in any way similar to something like “grittiness”. I hate to tell you this, but the fact that it doesn’t help YOU assess a catcher does not stop it from being meaningful to pitchers, pitching coaches, and managers..
“If the Cubs had signed only one, I would have much rather had them sign Contreras.”
You know what I won’t miss about Contreras?
His 2.4% rate of grounding into double plays. I would much rather have Swanson’s .1.2% rate.
You know what else I won’t miss about Contreras?
His lifetime .232 BA in high leverage situations. I would much rather have Swanson’s .289 BA when the games are tied or close.
But maybe those are other metrics you don’t care about.
Another thing I won’t miss about Contreras:
2022 – Contreras: 22 HRs / 55 RBIs
2022 – Swanson: 25 HRs / 96 RBIs
Why the large gap in RBIs? Contreras hit only 6 of his homers (27%) when runners were on base, while Swanson hit 13 (52%) of his with runners on.
Please show me a “Game Prep Effectiveness” statistic that supports your contention. Or, since you’re an expert Googler, find some properly sourced material that demonstrates that the Cubs weren’t happy with Contreras’s game prep skills.
About those GIDP numbers….wow, you’re telling me that a shortstop is faster than a catcher.Who woulda thunk? Next thing you’re going to tell me that shortstops are generally better at stealing bases than catchers are, too. What a revelation.
I’ll concede your point on batting average in high-leverage situations but also bring to your attention that these numbers don’t necessarily tell the full story. Were all these hits in high-leverage situations in meaningful games? Clutchiness is not as easy to quantify as it may seem. That’s why MLB got rid of the Game Winning RBI stat years ago.
The Braves’ offense was way better than the Cubs’ offense in 2022. They had more runners on base. More baserunners generally lead to more RBIs.
Oh, here’s something for you to chew on:
Swanson – 14.5 Career WAR in 3043 ABs
Contreras – 20.8 Career WAR in 2481 ABs
See how easy this is?
Everybody else in this thread is aware of Contreras’ failings and the Cubs’ desire to get better defensive catchers – but you want me to source that information for you? Do the work yourself – you have the minority opinion.
Any Cub fan that’s actually been watching games the last few years is aware of Contreras problems hitting with RISP (especially in the clutch). He was a terrible #2 hitter (although his occasional solo home run was fun) – but the Cubs didn’t have anyone better at the time..
In terms of WAR, Contreras’ numbers were inflated by oWAR – i.e. the fact that any offensive production from catchers is rare in general. Nonetheless, I think his numbers are in decline while Swanson’s are growing.
If you make a claim, it’s your job to provide the evidence. That’s how fact-based systems work. I might have the minority opinion among the four of us, but there are plenty of Cubs fans who feel exactly as I do and could probably state their cases more effectively.
The Cubs difficulty to hit with RISP since 2016 was certainly not limited to Contreras. Were there times I got frustrated with his approach at the plate? Absolutely. He’s far from perfect, but I will keep saying this: He’s a better OVERALL player than Gomes, Barnhart, and Torrens. The numbers bear this out.
WAR is WAR, regardless of whether it’s primarily driven by offense or defense. Contreras’s number is significantly higher than Swanson’s in significantly fewer ABs. Thinking that Contreras’s numbers are in decline while Swanson’s are growing does not necessarily make it so. It took seven years for Swanson to post above-average offensive numbers over a full season for the first time in 2022. He just turned 29, which means it won’t be long until he hits the age when most ballplayers start to regress. You’re certainly more optimistic about him than I am.
You’re making plenty of claims here without providing evidence, while parroting a tedious tune that the rest of us here have heard ad nauseum (“Ricketts!!”). I can’t help it if you’re a poorly informed Cubs fan – you seemed to be unaware that Contreras is not perceived as a good defensive catcher – but it’s not my job to prove all that you’ve missed.
You’re even making statements like “Do you think you know more than the Cardinals’ front office?” while doing the same thing about the Cubs FO constantly. It’s really fairly amusing, but I’m honestly sick of wasting time with you. I suggest reading more about what the team is actually doing rather than dreaming things up based on your problems with Ricketts.
In any case, I’m done.
“Poorly-informed Cubs fan.” Nice ad hominem attack there. Always the sign of a winning argument.
I know full well that Contreras is not a defense-first catcher. I have never stated otherwise. I simply point out that he’s a better OVERALL player than the catchers they have now.
The Cardinals’ front office has usually outclassed that of the Cubs by a wide margin. That makes it a lot easier to be critical of the latter, as much as it pains me to say it.
Just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean you know more about what the Cubs are actually doing than I do. Nor does your curious fondness for the Ricketts family.
Refuting the claims you’ve made that the Cubs/Ricketts are cheap doesn’t make me or anyone pro-Ricketts. Simply keeping the discussion honest. You’ve consistently made snarky comments about people “carrying water for…”, “Having a curious fondness for…”, “Love for…, “, “Pro Ricketts Blog”. So your issue with the “ad hominem attack” kinda falls flat.
Well, I’m nothing if not consistently snarky. Apologies if anyone’s fee-fees were hurt during this dialogue. At least my “ad hominem” comment didn’t fall completely flat. Thanks. Enjoy Opening Day.
Something I didn’t realize, not only is the Cub manager a former catcher, but Carter Hawkins was a catcher in his playing days.
Spotswood, madmeme, and Unclemik e1526:
I appreciate the frank exchange of views. I’d love to be wrong and see the Cubs’ current approach lead to another World Series championship. But I saw way too many similarly constructed Cubs teams like this in the 1990s for me not be critical. They’re spending too much money on not-great players and are likely to use that as an excuse not to pay for truly great ones. Again, I’d love to be wrong. But when I hear Tom Ricketts talk about the Cubs not being able to do certain things because of “Biblical losses” and focus too much on Wrigleyville real estate, that makes me skeptical.
That’s all I have to say about this. Time for me to go back to the cave I apparently live in.
And I’ll end my comments here. I am not “pro-Ricketts”. I’m not Ricketts anything. But I don’t care how much an owner is worth, all their other businesses and investments are separate from the team business. I don’t expect them to lose $50M a year because I’m emotionally fragile and my self-worth is directly connected to whether the team they own wins or loses. Whether the Cubs win or lose, my day does not change, so Ricketts has zero control over my self-worth.
What Ricketts did do, is win a championship. Hoyer was also a big part of that. I don’t care what happened in the 60’s, 80’s or 90’s. No one running the ship was involved. To hold them accountable for something they had zero control over is illogical.
Ricketts hasn’t been cheap and shows no indication that is how he is operating moving forward. They were over the luxury tax in 2016, 2019 & ’20. You brought up sunk cost, that is argumentive and thin at best because the structure of contracts makes that a cyclical issue for every team. I assume it was another way to say they stopped spending in 2018, which is also inaccurate. Despite having a #4 payroll the Cubs offered Bryant a $200M contract prior to ’18 and a $225M contract prior to 2019. They offered Baez $180M and Rizzo $60M prior to ’20. From ’18 – ’20 the Cubs added Cole Hammels, Darvish, Chatwood, Kimbrel, Kintzler, Morrow, Brach to a growing payroll that went over the luxury tax heading into 2020. When Ricketts was spending whatever was needed, the pandemic hit at the worst time. The “biblical losses” that you mock, the Cubs lost $70M in 1 year. Sorry, not on board with the “he can afford it” mentality. Again, it’s just sports. Doesn’t change my day. I see no reason an owner should lose money and the multi million dollar players walk free and clear. Sorry, don’t feel bad for a guy making $5M a year let alone a guy making $35M.
As far as how Hoyer is building the current roster. It’s seems you see it as just throwing money (so not cheap) at older reclamation players and that’s how things are gonna be. I think you’re missing the bigger picture. These Bellinger, Hosmer, Mancini et al contracts are short term, bridge contracts until their prospects float up. That is the plan. From there, because of the payroll flexibility you’re able to see which prospects develop and then go out buy the pieces you need to make a run (like a #1 or 3rdB). I never expected ’23 to be a year the Cubs made a run. Didn’t see the window opening. Next year is the year the Cubs make a move.
The worn out narrative that Ricketts is a cheap billionaire that just wants to buy real estate, rabble, rabble, rabble, “he took my job” thing is baseless and unravels quite easily.