Red Sox principal owner John Henry addressed several topics related to his team in e-mails with The Athletic’s Jen McCaffrey and The Boston Sports Journal’s Sean McAdam, and in both Q&A responses, Henry pushed back against criticisms of the club’s offseason.
“There’s been a false narrative that we somehow stopped spending — completely unsupported by the facts — that we no longer sign free agents, that we are uninterested in or incapable of winning despite our track record….I don’t think anyone realizes there are 30 teams in these sports every year that are all doing everything they can to win,” Henry wrote in his response to McAdam. “In a particular year some clubs are criticized because they aren’t ’going for it’ when they are going every single thing they can short of destroying their futures to win. You always have to keep an eye on the future. And every team (maybe not the Mets) has a budget. It’s so easy to fall as we did in 2022 to mediocrity. We needed to make changes but we haven’t lost our way.”
In regards to Boston’s own budget, Henry told McCaffrey that the Red Sox weren’t going to increase spending into the $300MM range as response to how teams have operated this winter. The Mets’ whopping $355MM projected payroll leads baseball, and the Yankees and Padres have also opened the checkbook to a large extent this winter, even if both teams are wary of hitting particular luxury-tax penalty tiers.
It has been a busy winter at Fenway Park, with a long list of notable players (i.e. Xander Bogaerts, J.D. Martinez, Nathan Eovaldi, Michael Wacha, Rich Hill) departing in free agency. Bloom has been quite active in adding replacements, with such players as Masataka Yoshida, Justin Turner, Kenley Jansen, Chris Martin, Corey Kluber, Adam Duvall, Adalberto Mondesi, and Joely Rodriguez among the notable names brought aboard in signings or trades. In addition, the Red Sox also locked up a cornerstone piece in signing Rafael Devers to a massive extension that will keep the slugger in Beantown through the 2033 season.
Naturally, Henry pointed to the Devers deal as proof that the Red Sox were still open to extending their in-house stars, as well as making long-term commitments to players into their late 30’s. “Clubs, fans, media can all wish players had fewer options and that clubs had unlimited budgets, but players — including those you most want to extend — are often going end up going to free agency,” Henry wrote to McAdam. “Clubs need depth. Every MLB club faces these issues and it isn’t something we enjoy. I hated losing Xander as much as anyone on the planet, but players going to free agency isn’t a new phenomenon. We are faced with difficult choices each offseason.”
With an estimated payroll of just under $193MM, the Red Sox are hardly pinching pennies, and yet that total represents a significant drop from their 2022 year-end payroll of around $221MM. Boston’s luxury tax number is now down to roughly $217.8MM, under the $233MM threshold and also a reduction after the Red Sox just barely surpassed the tax line in 2022. The front office’s decision to stay over the tax line last season drew plenty of criticism, as the Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs, and their status as Competitive Balance Tax payors cost them in terms of draft compensation for Bogaerts and Eovaldi. Because the duo rejected qualifying offers, the Red Sox would’ve received compensatory picks sitting 61st and 62nd overall in the 2023 draft order. Instead, those picks are 119th and 120th overall.
Henry also used the “false narrative” terminology in his response to McCaffrey, saying that Bogaerts’ decision to sign with the Padres was one of “the biggest factors” in some of the discontent expressed by Red Sox Nation. In response to the widely-publicized incident of Henry, president Sam Kennedy, and chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom being booed during the team’s Winter Weekend fan event, Henry seemed to imply that media negativity exaggerated the situation, rhetorically asking “did anyone report the standing ovation at the end?”
With all this in mind, Henry didn’t address or seemingly didn’t recognize the chief criticism most Boston fans have about the team’s offseason — not a lack of spending per se, but rather the nature of that spending. Rather than pursue another major name to replace Bogaerts, the Red Sox instead spread their money around to multiple veteran players on short-term contracts. The biggest deal to a new player went to Yoshida (an unknown quantity against MLB competition), and the size of Yoshida’s contract also drew surprised responses from multiple rival executives.
Time will soon tell if Bloom’s strategy has paid off, and obviously a lot of fan criticism will diminish if the Sox get back into contention in 2023. Henry wrote in both e-mails that “no one was happy with” with the team’s 78-84 record last year left, including ownership.
Going into the new season, Henry feels “we are in much better shape than we were after 2021,” when the Red Sox advanced to the ALCS. That year marked the one winning season of Bloom’s three-year tenure as chief baseball officer, but when asked by McAdam about Bloom’s job performance, Henry noted that “baseball operations is more than one person….So a better question is: how is the organization doing?”
“As I said, we haven’t gotten the kind of results you would have expected for the amount of resources deployed over the last four years with the exception of 2021. We’ve been building depth, but we saw little depth last year in the major leagues. You should see some depth this year and improvement. We have had setbacks with injuries already this season, but we expect to be competitive. We are at a different stage than the Yankees are, than Toronto this season….It will be interesting.”
What is Henry more than anything else? Say it with me everyone! C-H-E-A-P, CHEAP!
Henry has delivered more championships than any other owner in team history and the Red Sox have consistently retooled during that time and spending big when needed. The narrative that he is cheap is not entirely factual
Take off those rose colored glasses and take the boot out of your mouth, this is embarrassing.
That’s not what bootlicking is, at all.
Rsox – While of course what you described in the past is true, people have reason to be concerned about the here and now because times have changed. Henry has been focusing and spending much more of his time and money on other entities that he owns (most recently acquiring the Pittsburgh Penguins) than he has on the Red Sox. He used to be a very visible owner when it comes to the Red Sox, now he’s not around nearly as much. He didn’t even bother showing up for the traditional end of season press conference last year.
So while he deserves credit for past success, he needs to do better now because there have been many blunders on his watch recently. Two last place finishes over the past three years is unacceptable. Failing to retain hardly any popular homegrown stars is unacceptable.
Nobody is going to spend big dollars to see this year’s team just because they won championships 5-19 years ago.
Henry has been focusing and spending much more of his time and money on other entities
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Not really.
1-He is an owner, not a GM. He probably wants a little oversight, but I doubt his daily activities involve any day-to-day decisions.
2-The salary is pretty much identical from year-to-year. We’re going to spend about $230M whether he buys a FB team or he doesn’t.
“He didn’t even bother showing up for the traditional end of season press conference last year.”
So what? Its like youre searching for breadcrumbs to prove your point.
Joe, the market has changed due to San Diego and New York’s wild spending. To me, the team gets under the taxes to reset this year and then thry truly join others bidding on Ohtani regardless of the $230m level. Should he choose to go elsewhere so be it but the team needs to convince it’s fan base they’re willing to compete. The past is the past and there’s a new standard in play. Hopefully it’s short term and will self correct but if not, is Henry and Co. willing to go the extra mile like they did 20 years ago?
The RS were #1 in 2018 & 2019, and maybe earlier, so I don’t doubt he will go over. Just not to the NYM levels, and just not every year.
I appreciate John Henry for the four championships he’s delivered to Boston. I do think he opposes paying aging players 10s of millions of dollars, so it seems like he’s cheap in some ways. But they do spend a lot of money compared to most teams. The problem is that it is spent wrong, and that’s on Bloom. The key example to Bloom’s poor decision making is the trade deadline this year when he consiously exceeded the luxury tax threshhold. I’ve made this comparison before: It is like Henry has given Bloom the keys to a Ferrari, and told him not to exceed the speed limit. But it is Bloom who is driving the machine into guard rails and side swiping other vehicles.
But Henry doesnt spend a lot compared to other teams.
Red Sox + 12th in payroll for 2023
Liverpool – 12th in EPL (previous year 8th), and the majority of the spending was funded by sales. Liverpool are ranked in the top 5 wealthiest teams in the world.
And Bloom can’t drive a stick shift
SteveZ: If the Red Sox dipped under the luxury tax there last year, people would call them cheap. They did not dip under and people call them dumb. People will always have something to complain about if they want to and it does look like people just want to complain.
That was always baked in. If they traded everyone, the haters would whined that they gave up. If they tried to compete, they’d whine that they should’ve given up.
That’s the problem if Henry was more focused he’d notice how horrible Bloom is he goes after guys who can’t hit, over the hill, or no one else wants (Story) and toss stupid money at them and he can’t trade for the life of him OC yet to see anything good come from his trades of a MVP and a 30+ hr hitter or any others trade he’s made he doesn’t know TALENT just STATS
He is not cheap. The Red Sox have consistently had one of the largest payrolls in baseball. They had one of the largest payrolls in baseball, top 5 I think, when they finished last in the AL East last season. They will have one of the top 10 payrolls in baseball when they finish last in the AL East this season.
Their problem is not that they are not spending money. Its that they are spending money in ill-advised ways.
Signing or trading for multiple 34-38 year old players and spending $20 million AAV (including posting fees) on a player that has never played in the majors and cannot field his position are not smart baseball decisions.
The Yoshida signing is rivaled in its stupidity only by the Devers extension. Throwing $330 million at a player that is destined to be a 1B or DH before he turns 30 makes it the worst of the offseason.
Since Bloom came on board, the Red Sox have been a ship without a rudder. No discernible plan and spending that will hamper winning in the short term. How are Red Sox fans going to react to another last place finish?
According to Spotrac, the Red Sox are 14th in team payroll, slightly above the Colorado Rockies and slightly above average.
spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/
Ignore Spotrac, they are wrong far more often than they are right.
Use Cots Baseball Contracts or Roster Resource.
Dysfunctional Ownership Group & Front Office
( John Henry and Sam Kennedy )
constantly in chaos and losing
top Executives to other organizations:
Epstein, Dombrowski, Hazen, Cherrington etc..
It is surprising that they have won so much and had so much success
with the constant turnover and chaos in the Baseball Operations Front Office.
Actually, I think John Henry winning a World Series with 3 different GMs shows that he does know what he is doing. The constant in all of it is John Henry.
Glad to see the Red Sox finally won a Championship.
A lot of luck and timing/chance was involved also.
Even a blind squirrel finds the nut every now and again.
If Dave Dombrowski was not available at the time, then it could have been a different story with worse results.
And, the Red Sox’s: win and tank, win and tank, win and tank
business model.
None of these highly regarded MLB Execs
would ever work for Henry again:
1) Theo Epstein (free agent)
2) Dave Dombrowski (Phillies)
3) Mike Hazen (D-Backs)
4) Ben Cherrington (Pirates)
Henry now has to hire guys who can promote into the GM position.
Since, the word is out and experienced, successful, respected
MLB Executives won’t work for John Henry & the Red Sox.
It’s hard to imagine Henry losing even more credibility, but, when he’s quoted as saying
“I don’t think anyone realizes there are 30 teams in these sports every year that are all doing everything they can to win”
I can’t imagine anyone, ANYONE believes that’s true. There are certain teams that flat out don’t even put much effort into fielding the best team they can, and, their team salaries prove it.
Yes, Boston has spent. Yes, it was done so yet again in a foolish manner.
Umm… the end goal is winning for any team. He never said they did it the right way, but if you aren’t in it to win it, then you need to find another business. There’s a difference between doing it wrong and not trying.
@GASoxFan: Exactly. I was going to post what you did, but saw you already had. It’s not logical to believe anything he says after making such a blatantly false statement.
It’s true to a certain extent. Everyone wants to win, except maybe Miami, but a lot of them can’t go all-in every year. That’s just the nature of the varying revenue streams.
It just seems like most of the blame can be placed at Bloom’s feet. He’s out of his element in a large market. He’s better suited for MIA or KC. The only question is how long is the experiment going to last?
I think the Red Sox just realize it’s best to retool right now and hold off on going all out. Yankees did the same thing not long ago.
At least he has the guts to face the fans and explain his team’s approach to try to become a contender again. There’s a team on the south side of Chicago whose owner doesn’t have stones to say anything to the fans about why he is so indifferent about his team.
Maybe he feels it could this season but their bottom line with more sold but empty seats and less marketing sales. If the team starts out flat, it will be a long summer. At least he seemed to confirm it’s not just Bloom but then again, unless he was ready to make another change, what else could he have said?
What guts? He lied entirely claiming he wasn’t booed when we ALL saw the multiple videos of Sox Winter Weekend and that corny bruins whatever garbage they held they booed him there too. He’s entirely spineless, constantly throws everyone around him under the bus, IS CHEAP, has one of the highest payrolls and revenue in all of MLB top 5 literally yet pockets 75% for his corny soccer team no one cares about or his NHL ventures which are going knowhere as well. Tie in the fact he’s a pathological liar and you got the TRUTH. He should run for president sounds exactly like someone orange.
avenger – You have really devalued the definition of “guts”.
He lied entirely claiming he wasn’t booed
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Just for fun, how about pointing out where he said they weren’t booed?
Carl: If the media did not report standing ovations along with booing, they failed to tell the whole story.
@Jurassic Carl The media really did a number on you
Joe – in his written email released by the pr department he claimed he was never booed at the hockey game.
Then, he had the team delete the introduction where they were booed going on the stage from the replay of the winter weekend presser uploaded on the official team page and media section.
The Red Sox also purged a ton of salary in the AGon, Beckett, CC, etc trade to the Dodgers. The pendulum will swing as soon as a couple prospects hit and then they’ll have JTurner, and others to show them the Dodger way. Sorry, I meant the Red Sox way. Hahahaha
desertball – The difference between the AGON and other bad choices back in the day and this team is talent level. The Red Sox back then had a good core and tried to add expensive talent and their choices missed.
Today, the team has a horrible core now that JD, Bogey, Nate, Vazquez, Betts, Benny and others are all gone. They also have a high payroll due to Bloom’s choices including the Devers deal.
This isn’t fixable until a REAL GM arrives in Boston. Until then, you can pretend all you want that this is somehow comparable to some other Red Sox team that went from being bad to good overnight but it’s simply not the case. No talent as a baseline doesn’t allow those jumps when you are $20MM from a $20MM higher cap than the last guy had.
Wipe the slate clean now and get rid of Bloom and Cora. Hire a GM with successful experience in Big Markets and then trade off the wasted money like Devers and Yoshida. Then, patiently wait for Sale and Paxton to look good and trade them. Next, decide who are the long-term reasonably priced keepers that are left and who are the future players for each position.
In the end, the new GM will have over $150MM to grab free agents that perform well to rebuild the core that has been tossed aside by Bloom.
Normally, corner infielders and corner outfielders make up the power on the team with speed up the middle. Slot Mayer and Yorke as the future middle infield and give them time to develop. Get a free agent 3B who can field and hit, a power hitting left fielder who isn’t a butcher like Yoshida, a power hitting right fielder who is an outstanding outfielder like Mookie, give Rafaela a chance to be the CF of the future and find a good catcher who can hit and throw out runners like Vazquez was for several years.
Bloom left garbage at almost every position. Devers and Yoshida are one dimensional and hurt the team with their defense. Hernandez should be cut or traded if his name creates a market for his lack of skills. Arroyo can stay as a utility player. Casas and Dalbec can still fight it out for 1B until Mayer and Yorke arrive and Story once he gets healthy can be insurance until Mayer and Yorke prove themselves starters.
Bloom’s utility player mentality of acquiring offense has destroyed a powerful line-up but each year there are great pieces that can be gotten if the GM knows what he is doing.
All this needs to happen after Bloom is gone and the chalkboard is ready to be erased so a new, more realistic plan by position can be created. Yep, we need to step back to 2016 and ask a new GM to design a winner like DD did. Henry said it’s not about the money and letting Bloom throw money away like he did on bad talent proves there is a commitment by the owner. Now the owner needs to get past his brain cramp when he chose a nobody to be the GM of one of the best franchises in baseball. The drop-off has been so prolific since he went from a top GM to a bottom GM so the magnitude of the drop is maximized.
Now it’s time for another top GM who believes in winning and effectively using his players at the MLB level and the minor league level. Trade the over-rated prospects for something of value and keep the ones who will be the future. Dump the AAA players like Kiki, McGuire, Arroyo, and others or at least make them the 3 bench players for now. All this and not a word about the pitching!! Why? Because the pitching isn’t in bad shape for the future. If Sale is dealt, Paxton is gone, Kluber and others are gone then you have young pitchers to fill in the holes after you spend big bucks on 3 elite SPs. IF the new GM comes in before the 2024 season he could keep Jansen and the new relievers and simply find a #1, #2 and #3 SP for about $75MM a year for the three of them. Add two young guys making next to nothing and that leaves you a lot of money to fix the offense with Devers and Yoshida’s $50MM+ off the books.
3 Elite pitchers and at least 3 eltie hitters who can field would make this team a contender quickly. That’s the type of thinking we need from a new GM and he needs to be hired by mid-season if possible to beat others to the punch on grabbing the best GM available.
How did the AGon contract work out? He wasn’t exactly happy in Boston. Hsd one good year, then got involved in chicken and beer and was out. His career derailed after that and he barely finished out the contract for the Dodgers.
We retooled in 2013 with less talent and won.
So spending doesn’t always get you to the strong finish, either.
You are delusional. You think other teams are just going to forget about Sale’s last few years because of a couple od decent months that haven’t even happened yet. And you think some other team will trade for the overated prospects while the Sox keep the ones that will be the future foundation. Oh yeah and then we will just go out and sign 3 top end starting pitchers. Got it, seems realistic.
Dude—- just give it up…. you are one unhappy little complainer…. its getting really old.
To be fair, the Red Sox have won three championships with defensive “butchers” in LF (Manny Ramirez in ’04 and ’07, and Jonny Gomes in ’13)
I know I’m on an island on this one, but two things:
1-At least at Fenway, Manny was AT LEAST an average fielder. He played the wall perfectly and had a very quick release on his throws.
2-When it counted, Manny hustled. I saw him run through at least five stops at 3B, and scored easily on all of them.
Manny was terrible. A complete product of steroids
It may be more difficult to attract an experienced, winning GM to the Red Sox based on the Red Sox’s and Henry’s track record of mistreating top rated, highly respected
Front office talent like
Epstein, Dombrowski, Cherrington, Hazin
The red sox version of things is VERY different than what the Yankees did.
NY kept their homegrown and core guys, traded a few away for mlb-ready and high quality prospects, and, then immediately either resigned the same guys or better at the end of the season.
Had boston traded away JDM, Bogey, Eovaldi, Wacha, etc last season for blue chip and mlb ready players, and then, re-signed them or better this offseason, then it would fit along the lines of the NYY ‘retool’.
What bloom did was very different.
No one was going to trade blue chip MLB ready players for 2 month rentals of any of the players you mentioned. Faulting the team for not making impossible deals is dumb.
Kingken- the point you seem to miss is twofold:
1) that any comparison that equates what boston did to what the retool the NYY did is the dumb part, and, its not a comparison i was making. I was pointing out how when the Yankees moved expiring deal players, such as bullpen pieces, for example to the cubbies, they got top tier returns. Boston did not, and in fact, didn’t move the guys on the expiring deals in many cases at all. It’s disingenuous to say the two teams both did a similar retool when they in fact didn’t.
2) you ignore the mismanagement of the assets entirely. It’s possible to do a combined package of multiple pieces, or, a piece plus lesser prospects for a higher grade prospect.
The only player they could have got a great return for is Xander. Still got the QO but could have got better. Eovaldi probably couldn’t get a lot better than a QO. JD and Wacha could have gotten a little bit nothing that spectacular.
No it really isn’t. Teams don’t give up quality for quantity and anyone who thinks so really doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about. Not to mention the fact that one of the biggest criticisms of the current guy running baseball ops for Boston recently was when he DID trade a player who was about to leave as a free agent for what he could get for him. So it’s always a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.
Buzz – Sorry your opinion is pure bad speculation. JD has value and trading him at the deadline wasn’t the right answer when you know you are completely dismantling a team. Any rookie GM should know you deal from strength and JD held the team together on offense for the first two months. Trade high and buy low. That’s the way a good GM would think. Bloom has yet to use that concept in dealing any of his players.
Nate and Wacha were hot at times and could have been dealt for something of value. Bogey would have been attractive to multiple teams looking to sign him long term. Vazquez was dealt, got some value was received but not maximized and he should have been resigned at year end just like JD and Bogey.
Bloom shows no signs of comprehending how to do his job so he needs to be fired as soon as possible.
King – Face it. Bloom sucks at his job. It’s not like people are being unfair. It’s that he keeps making bad choices. He’s bad at his job. It’s that simple.
A GM’s job is to provide the manager with a highly competitive team not an incredibly deep team that lacks talent. Bloom doesn’t understand his job.
It took 5 minutes before the astute fans saw he was a putz and didn’t deserve the job. He paid JBJ $11MM in 2020 when he could have non tendered him. The $11MM would have been paid for the 1st year of the uplift on Mookie’s pay and part of the second year!!! So one simple move could have solved the first two years of the uplift from $27MM to $36MM Mookie was seeking. After that, the other old contracts would have rolled off the books so Mookie’s $36MM a year would have been far superior to three bad guys totaling $36MM like Bloom has done.
Bloom is bad at his job!!! There are now hundreds of examples why that is true!! Check his acquisition history. Throw in his trade history and finish with his hiring history. The man is bad at his job!!!
No one was going to trade blue-chip or MLB ready prospects for a short-term rental of any of those 4 players.
.
Trading away players isn’t keeping homegrown talent. Your post is more of an oxymoron than a truth.
GA, what the Yankees did, they learned from the Red Sox who one year earlier traded (right or wrong), Lester, Lackey and Miller. While Cespedes didn’t work out, those trades netted eventually Porcello, Rodriguez and Kelly who all contributed in 18
NY kept their homegrown and core guys
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When you mention “guys”, it is plural. They re-signed Judge. Who are the rest of them?
Ken: Exactly. There is a part of Red Sox Nation that will find a reason to whine and complain no matter what happens. I get complaining now and then. I do it too, but this complaining like it is the end of the world is what I push back against.
You still don’t get the fact that Betts left because he wanted to live somewhere else, it wasn’t over 11 million dollars.
Not true Ken, at all.
I get sick of rehashing the mookie trade which we all know is what you’re referring to, I really do.
Mookie got traded for spare parts. Then he insisted on attaching price, not because it added value to the deal, but simply because he wanted him gone.
That diminished the return, so, it wasn’t ‘what you could get for him” it was less than that.
And, it wasn’t to reset the CBT. Just mookie leaving alone put the team under the tax limit.
What did bloom do with that extra salary relief? Augment the rosternwith proven talent? NO again. He went to shot the retread and damaged goods departments and brought in a bunch of failed prospects and sub-par players who, wait for it, surprise surprise all failed to perform and were kicked to the curb, losing payroll in the process.
Joe, I was referring to 2016, when the NYY dealt Miller, Chapman, and Beltran in their retool and restock the farm deadline, and, the litany of both direct production and trade chip materials that led to moves that flowed directly out of the players obtained therein.
Do you remember how paxton got to NY? Do you remember frazier coming in and how he got there, what he provided for the team? Where did Britton come from? They brought back Warren, they got Mckinney to flip for Happ. Do remember the guys in NYs own farm system, drafted and intl signees they kept and didn’t have to trade in other moves because of the additional prospect capital those 3 trades brought in?
Was Frazier a top prospect at the time? Was sheffield brought in who turned into a roughly top-30 guy in short order? Was Torres considered a top prospect at the time? Prospects can miss, even top rated ones, but, what was the value received seen as being?
So, if you’re talking about a 2022 offseason, and signing judge, that wasn’t where I was going. I was referring to the classic retool and restock on the fly approach, best epitomized by the 2016 deadline. Something bloom doesn’t understand how to do.
But all those other moves and guys who contributed to winning seasons in NY, the chips to bring those guys in, and not trade away other Yankees prospects or young guys, were paid for using 2016 deadline assets.
GA, I’m not sure what planet you’re on with respect to Betts. By adding Price to the deal, the $8m savings was needed. Without it JDM for example might have been traded to reset the taxes. Moreover, who was offering more? Verdugo was the main piece and has been decent at least. We can’t re-write trades. Sorry to be so blunt but the Mookie deal in my view was approved by ownership so please stop making it Bloom’s failure without proof there was a better deal on the table that he rejected.
False Dewey.
If you want it from an article, here:
Www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/02/mookie-betts-david…
Trading mooke+price (saving 16m off price) put the sox 18m below cbt. Mookie alone dropped it 2m below cbt.
Or look at spotrac, where bos finished at 184.8m in cbt including retained salaries active and injured players.
Amone other waste, perez for 5.7m (5.5 base +200k incentive) and peraza 2.85m. You could’ve kept price at full 32m if he didn’t opt out, and not signed perez/peraza, and STILL been below cbt.
The only reason payroll roster again post trade was for bloom to waste money on retreads.
Your fantasy scenarios regarding Mookie Betts make no sense. He wasn’t traded because the team didn’t have the money to extend him because of JBJ’s final arb year salary. He was traded because he shot down every effort the Sox made to get him to sign an extension. But thanks for proving my point about Bloom getting criticized regardless of what he does. He’s criticized for not hanging onto Betts and watching him walk for nothing but a draft pick and criticized for hanging onto Bogaerts and having that happen. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. In fact you even take things a completely ridiculous step farther and bash him for getting a long term extension done. There literally is no move you won’t complain about.
I was referring to the classic retool and restock on the fly approach,
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I’m full onboard with the occasional tank job. The problem with 2022 was that once they decided to not trade Bogaerts, then the rest of it didn’t really matter. If we ate salary, we’d have gotten lottery tickets for Eovaldi & JD.
And it is entirely possible that would’ve been the correct move. But at that point, if we weren’t trading Bogaerts, I was onboard with keeping everyone else.
GASoxFan
Trading mooke+price (saving 16m off price) put the sox 18m below cbt. Mookie alone dropped it 2m below cbt.
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Incorrect.
The trade brought our payroll down to $198M. The number you are coming up with includes Price opting out of the season.
IRT to Perez, he had an ERA+ of 107. He was a steal at that price, and has subsequently become an all-star.
GA: If you take the final 2020 Spotrac payroll of $184.8M and add $32M for Price and then subtract $5.7M for Perez (keeping Price instead of Perez), the payroll would be $211.1M which is over the luxury tax threshold of $208M. So, I think they needed to attach half of Price’s contract to the Betts trade to reset the luxury tax. John Henry did state that they had a wanted to reset the luxury tax (see below).
All in the suit- now.subtract peraza at 2.85 as well. He was a reclamation project of blooms that didn’t work out signed after the trade. All of a sudden you’re right with the 208m figure if you ignore any one of the near minimum signings made.
It would’ve been easy to get under the threshold, because with two less players worth of taxes and benefits at those salaries you either chop a minimum salary nobody bloom also signed, or, maybe the benefits got you there.
After the trade news outlets put the projected payroll under the limit by 18m, yet price only added 16m back.
Every single season teams trade away players like Bogaerts and Eovaldi with just 2 months of control for quality prospects.
Every year.
GA: Who takes Peraza’s place and at what price? For everyone you get rid of, you need to pay someone else. That is why I focused on LHP Price vs. LHP Perez (both starters).
king – No facts once again. Mookie turned down low ball bids. That’s to be expected. The point about JBJ’s wasted money showed that Bloom was irresponsible from the very beginning of his time in Boston. Mookie is gone because he had the nerve to criticize ownership for their treatment of black players. Everyone knows the ownership wanted him gone. It wasn’t his greed that forced him out, it was his outspoken behavior toward the owners for their lack of equal treatment among the players. I wasn’t claiming it was the money because the money could have been offered but wasn’t because of the confrontation. DD was fired for wanting to bring Mookie back and the owners not wanting that. Mookie’s confrontation with ownership sent this organization into a downward spiral they haven’t recovered from. But Mookie did the right thing as a leader on this ball club. He stuck up for his team mates.
You keep trying to spin things away from the facts? Why? Bloom gets criticized for each mistake as it should be. The fact that he’s made so many is further justification that proves he’s not qualified for the job.
Good moves are ones that I don’t complain about. So far, he’s made very few. I was relieved when he figured out he could dump guys like Workman for prospects or young players. Pivetta turned out well. Grabbing Whitlock was a good move. Even signing Story was acceptable despite his arm problems. If he know he was deep sixing Bogaerts he needed a bridge to Mayer. In three years, that’s not a lot to praise.
At this point it’s hard not to notice how depleted the roster is because of his bad decisions. Why is this not obvious to you if you see yourself as an astute Red Sox fan? Even if you didn’t like Vazquez, McGuire is a huge step down. I could make comments similar to that one for every position. Not one position as of Opening Day will be better than it was when Bloom arrived. There are no great prospect acquisitions that will impact the MLB team since Bloom arrived. The draft picks are too recent to have an impact so he gets a pass on his draft choices. There isn’t much to point to when it comes to steps that improved the team. Again, why is that not obvious to you if you are a great Boston Red Sox fan?
GA: The Red Sox were not done after the Betts trade. They signed Kevin Pillar for $4.25M. They may have added or subtracted other salary too with minimum salary players. So, any discussion of the Red Sox getting below the $208M luxury tax threshold in 2020 needs to start with the final payroll of $184.8M. I think all we can say is keeping David Price and not signing Martin Perez would not get them below the $208M luxury tax threshold as the math above shows. I have been open minded about this, but I don’t think you are correct.
Suit – peraza only appeared in 34 games and just over 100 PAs. He was not necessary to the team which went with other internal options.
It was a straight attempt to buy and flip someone, and he stunk so bad they cut bait on him.
He wasn’t ever necessary to the team. No additional player or salary necessary.
Suit, just like peraza, bloom made straight ‘spend money recklessly to try and buy failed players and former prospects’ who amounted to nothing.
You need to look at the moves bloom made after the mookie trade on the transaction report, and, look at how many were unnecessary.
It’s fine if you disagree, but, there no essential expenditures, and, if you want to do with the season ending payroll that’s fine UT you also need to discount guys who did nothing, weren’t expected to do anything, and were bad signings from the start off that final tally. Bloom just wouldn’t have been able to make that flurry of dumb moves.
Betts was traded. He didn’t leave of his own accord.
GA: This leads to a whole list of debates about who did nothing, weren’t expected to do anything, and were bad signings which we will never complete on here.
They weren’t resigning Vasquez. For whatever reasons they never valued him.
The reported final attempt to get Betts to sign an extension was a 10 year/$300M offer. That in no way was a “lowball” offer. In fact the reports were it came with zero deferred dollars, meaning the actual dollar value was more than he eventually signed for with LA. Betts didn’t want to sign in Boston. He used every excuse in the book to not do so but in the end it’s pretty clear he didn’t want to be here. He just didn’t have 5e balls to be honest with the fan base, knowing they’d blame ownership as long as he never openly said he wanted to play elsewhere. But you’d have to be a blind fool to not see the truth.
As for the return they got for Betts, you and others seem to be under the delusion that one year of control of a player with a $27M contract was some great value to other teams. Facts are there were only a very small few teams who were even capable of taking on that contract in 2020 to begin with, one of them being a division rival and therefore completely out of the question. That pretty much left LA as the only other option for what they could get. No one else was offering much at all.
No facts once again. Mookie turned down low ball bids.
========================
Betts accepted a worse deal from LA than he was offered by the RS.
The reported final attempt to get Betts to sign an extension was a 10 year/$300M offer. That in no way was a “lowball” offer.
=======================
I already told KD/PB this. The PV of Betts’ LA deal was $306,657,882/12 years. The RS offered if $300M/10. The AAV the RS offered was way higher.
Betts signed a a 12/365 deal with the Dodgers. According to Rosenthal he was offered $300 million by the Red Sox for an unknown number of years.
bostonglobe.com/2022/07/18/sports/la-mookie-betts-…
audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/mookie-betts-wants-…
si.com/mlb/dodgers/news/dodgers-mookie-betts-revea…
And the dodgers deal included SIGNIFICANT deferred money said to bring the net present day value of the deal closet to $300m…
So it was STILL worth more than what the Red Sox offered.
According to the Globe in early 2020, the Red Sox offer also included deferred money although they didn’t say how much. Lou Merloni of WEEI said it was 10/300 with $70 million deferred. He also said Betts countered with 12/420.
The Red Sox never countered and 14 days later Betts was a Dodger.
Is Bloom bad at his job or is he micromanaged/handcuffed
by John Henry and Sam Kennedy?!
10/300 is not as much as the present day value of $306 million that Mookie got from the Dodgers and sources in Boston said the Red Sox offer did include substantial deferred money. Shaughnessy said $60 million and Merloni said $72 million.
Yankees haven’t had a losing season since 1992 try harder dude
Remove – 30 years of not having a losing season is far less impressive when you consider how much more money the Yankees spent than the teams they finished ahead of and even less impressive when you look at how much the teams that finished ahead of them spent.
Given an even playing field, the Yankee front office ranks near the bottom in baseball since 1963!! They won half the world series for nearly 40 years then without reducing their over spending they won very little the following 60 years!! The Yankee’s recent history is hardly impressive.
2009 sure seems like a long time ago to me when a fan wants to brag about not being below .500 rather than how many rings you won recently.
Recent history is really ugly for you guys so it’s probably best to stop bragging while you’re behind in the discussion.
I’m saying the Yankees haven’t retooled like buzz said they did two last places in three years is embarrassing keep up dude
Do the Yankees really win if they don’t have a World Series to show for it?
Sucks being a Yankee fan. The team is literally in the playoffs every year and the recent history of the team is actually called “really ugly.”
I wish all the teams I root for had such a horrible recent history.
Pulled – I just wrote a response to Joe about what a true retool and restock is supposed to look like. There were a lot of moves that fueled those winning seasons pulled off with a masterful 2016 deadline. You’ve got to give credit where it’s due, and they set themselves up nicely at it.
Had bloom had any savvy at all, he could’ve done last summer what Cashman did in ’16, or what DD did so many years at so many teams in getting mlb high-level contributor value for guys who weren’t going to amount to much from the farm. One hallmark of the Theo, cherington, dombrowski years was you never saw such a wholesale loss of rule 5 picks and untested aaa talent being dumped for near nothing as bloom saw this single offseason.
Pulled, it’s not fair to lump clubs in for such a long time when ownership changed. I either look during my time watching or during an ownership period. To me, since George bought the Yankees, I believe they are 7-4 in the WS and Boston is 4-2 (but 4-0 during this ownership period).
Remove – First, figure out which reply button to hit to gather your comment with the one you are referring to. Second, I have no idea who Buzz is so your comment remains not referenced.
I read what you wrote and responded to your bragging by adding some facts. What’s your issue with that? Next time, again, figure out which reply button to hit nimrod.
Rings are only important in the 20th century for Yanks fans? Now it’s about losing seasons. What’s next?
Yeah and how many rings have they gotten in the past decade? A good 0.
But they arent retooling, they’re just not spending.. Their model, as with Liverpool FC is about making money….possibly to fund the NBA franchise. At least at Liverpool Henry’s admitted he can’t afford to compete.
Buzz: Agreed. I think the Red Sox have made building the farm system just as important as winning now, if not more important. They have barely traded anyone from the farm system in the last 3 years. I think they decided not to trade Bogaerts because he was a fan favorite. I think that was a public relations decision.
As long as he keeps pumping money into Liverpool, I’m happy.
The problem Mr Henry is that FSG don’t spend at their other asset Liverpool FC. Their net spend on transfers for last two years is about 8th in the ESP…..where as they are ranked top 5 wealthiest soccer teams IN THE WORLD.
There’s a trend.
I love how fans on here know more than the baseball executives themselves
Pwndroia – it’s just the nature of the site, and, it reflects to why boston is referred to as a high pressure market for players.
We could be the opposite, and, then imagine what these boards would look like using a stereotypical British parody over tea:
“OH I say, jolly good signing ol chap”
“Yes, yes I do agree.”
“Too bad about that other fellow though. Still good effort.”
“Why yes, buck up, we’ll get them next time.”
That’d be boring, and, who wants to listen to a bunch of yes men where nobody is taken to task and accountable for their actions/inaction?
When Henry drops the ticket price to zero, gives away free concessions, and merchandise is free while every game is on OTA broadcast, then I’ll say the fans shouldn’t be vocal and having a say in what they think should (and shouldnt) be done. But as long as we fund the product, prepare for lots of opinions and Monday morning quarterbacking.
@GA You do realize that was sarcasm, right?
That one got by me, I’ll admit it.
Henry’s not cheap but he is being disingenuous. Notice his strawman argument that people are saying he “doesn’t sign free agents” and “doesn’t spend” neither of which is true. What people are saying is that the club is being mismanaged. When you spend over 221MM and come in last place something is seriously wrong. And for Bloom being here under the directive to build the farm system and after 3 years it’s still middling in the middle of the league is telling. Perhaps it’s time for Henry to address his real problem (Bloom) instead of claiming others are misjudging him with “false narritives” .
You can’t rebuild a bottom of the pack farm system in 3 years. That is unrealistic. It probably takes 5-6 years or more.
That’s why I always wait at least 6 years before judging a GM. Ceddanne could wash out or could be an AS. Houck has a floor of being a solid RP, but a ceiling of a $#3 SP or a closer.
Many other teams have you’re just not paying attention.
I’m a Yankee fan but I don’t think the Red Sox are doing the wrong thing. Sometimes, even the big market teams can use a reset.
Let’s face it, it worked out for the Astros !
Well wasnt a reset in that case, but higher draft pics.
The Astros tanked for multiple seasons if the Sox or MFY’s tried to pull that they’d find the GM’s in the river………with concrete shoes.
If Bloom’s charge was to build the farm system then he would have traded Bogaerts, Eovaldi and others at the deadline when the team was 18 games back.
Um, that’s why ppl realize Bloom is in over his head…..the dude doesn’t know what he’s doing.
Lol, spoiled Sox fans lifting their legs. Really pathetic. Don’t forget where you came from.
They lost the entire rotation. Their biggest mistake last year was not selling what little they had. They gave in when they shouldn’t have. They could’ve been below the “cap”.
Is this guy trying to respond to whiny trolls on the internet? There are even Mets’ fans who are upset about this offseason. Those who feel the strongest aren’t indicative of the majority. Most fans would probably rather have cheaper seats than have what the Yankees do, which is overpriced merchandise/seats and wasteful spending. Something has to give, and this guy should stop legitimizing this false narrative, as responding to it is making it sound credible. He should just ignore it.
I think he’s trying to preempt the committee’s goal (the economic committee to which he was just named) of capping the league and driving down salaries. It’s no coincidence that he chose the same day he was named to this money-savings committee to talk about how generous he’s been with money.
Money saving commitee? Salaries need to be driven down so sports players (and owners) don’t profit at the expense of fans. Have you seen the prices of fan merchandise? It’s crazy. They did just give Devers a big deal after signing Yoshida and giving Jansen 16 million. You sonnd like someone trying to get hired by Scott Boras. I’m not picking on the Yankees in particular. Texas did blow through 20 million on Pérez, 25 million on Semien, and 14 million on Gray. It’s just that the Yankees have a long record of having top payrolls and having their own network and really expensive and hyped things for fans. I just think we are all better off if owners don’t let their spending outpace the rest of the economy. A cap is one way to do that. I wouldn’t mind a salary floor if there is a stricter salary cap (as in you can’t participate if you call below or above it).
Well, that language wasn’t intended to be derogatory… it is an “economic reform” committee, which is saying the same thing another way. I just used plain language, but thought I clarified the goal was to drive down the salaries. I just couldn’t recall the name of the committee offhand.
@deGrom- Someone is going to profit off of all of us. It’s just the way the world works. Personally, I’d rather it be the guys on the field than the (already rich) owner sitting in a giant suite above me. So I believe player salaries are just fine. I say get every penny you can.
Damn that’s a great response and from a Yankee fan no less
Actually, I think this is indicative of him seeing how poorly the red sox are doing right now in the areas of single ticket sales to non-institutional resellers, season ticket cancellations, nesn subscriptions, media reporting, interest in truck day, and any manner of data points with a pulse on widespread fan reactions to the bloom era being substantially worse than under DD.
The one true thing he did say was “We are at a different stage than the Yankees are, than Toronto this season” in that at least those teams try to put the best winning club they can on the field, and, are expected to contend for the pennant.
Boston has ultra high ticket prices, concessions, merchandise and all the rest. Of course, merchandise may eventually hit the clearance rack with less fan interest in buying said it.
” There are even Mets’ fans that are upset about this off season.” lol Yes, there are, believe it or not.
deGrom: I think John Henry is responding to false/not completely accurate narratives from journalists he has seen.
Right or wrong a last place finish by a team as well supported as the Red Sox is going to result in a lot of upset fans.
You know, if they actually *tried* to their best ability and it didn’t work out? That’s one thing. So a heavily snake-bit injury campaign might get grumbling about the training staff or medical team. And a 2019 situation gets a little if fingerpointing at the manager for screwing up ST.
But the roster would still be viewed as fine.
Where you get really upset fans is when things look just SO poorly run. Screwing up the draft compensation. Wasting control on guys without trading them or building around them. Wasting payroll to buy prospects when you had a core that could’ve been supplemented instead to try and win. Trading young cheaper talent away, then spending more on their replacement who has a history of equal or worse production. So on, so on, so on.
so curious to see yoshida. there’s a wide range of outcomes but even as a yankee fan i want him to do well
He’s not cheap but he’s not a smart owner. He lets Bloom run amok. If Bloom doesnt keep them above the tax this year for no reason, either they can sign bogaerts or the compensation is significantly better. You let Bogaerts walk to sign a 34 year old slow and defensively incapable left fielder who will cost way more than Jurickson Profar and still be worse. Bloom is a terrible POBO and can’t make good signings. With the Yoshida money and the Jansen Money, the Sox could have paid Bogaerts. How much value is 38 year old Chris Martin giving you at this point? Also, I think Trevor Story will not be a shortstop anymore. Nice contract there. They have no starting pitching beyond rule 5 luck and washed mid 2010s guys. Bello is promising but hasn’t done anything yet. The worst part about Bloom is how he tries to spin the Betts trade as anything but a failure and tricks some Red Sox fans into thinking a 3rd catcher, a 4th outfielder and a bust prospect are better than Mookie freaking Betts. Henry is a bystander to horrific leadership. Fire Bloom!
Bloom also picked up a public masturbator behind the plate to replace a fan favorite. What a great role model for kids!
Which one of the C’s beat in public?
McGuire?
Yes, he did it while with the blue jays in a dollar tree parking lot. If you look up reese mcguire dollar tree, the articles will come up. It makes it really funny when the broadcast says he pulled the ball.
You mean not every dude at some point in their life finds themselves masturbating at a Dollar Tree?? D’oh.
Remember Pee Wee Herman. He got caught in an adult theatre. I guess it depends on your age where you get popped or pop one off I guess lol.
When you’ve got Alex Cora as your skipper, it’s already clear that ‘role model’ material isn’t important to you as an organization.
Vazquez was no fan favorite
He’s not cheap but he’s not a smart owner.
==========================
He’s probably the smartest owner in baseball, but the rest of your sentence is right.
AdmiralPatton10 hours ago
You let Bogaerts walk to sign a 34 year old
=========================
You gotta love the people that don’t mind putting their stupidity on stage for all to see.
Working in the USA ages you 5 years
Patton: I’m happy the Red Sox let Bogaerts go. In 2 years I want Marcelo Mayer at SS, not a declining Bogaerts. The point of the Mookie Betts trade was to shed salary and reset the luxury tax. The Dodgers took on half of David Price’s remaining contract which was $48M. When you take on a huge amount of money like that, the player return is lower.
Suit – the red sox were below the tax without tacking price on the deal. Look at the numbers.
There was no need to lower the return to free up more money, and, the extra money freed up did nothing to help the team, it wasn’t used on any productive player, or even proven player.
GA: I don’t recall it that way. I recall Betts made $20M in 2020 and the Dodgers took on $16M of David Price’s 2020 salary. So: What was the Red Sox payroll before and after the trade? I don’t know how to look that up. The luxury tax threshold for 2020 was $208M. In any case, I am ok with the trade. It wasn’t the best. It wasn’t the worst. I think Betts was going test free agency as he said he would all along. I think the reason he didn’t test free agency was that Covid came along after the trade.
Bloom paid perez 5.5m +200k incentives for 5.7m and peraza 2.8m alone.
The total base payroll including price prorated at 16m was 182.3m.
Had you kept price, you add 16m to get to 198.3, and take away just two of blooms failed attempts to get back down to 189.8m.
There were other sign-amd-cut players, but, those three changes alone and boston is STILL under cbt when you added for player benefits. Not by as much as they were ultimately, but still were. Then, when price opted out, you’d have fallen to below where they ultimately ended up anyways.
As it was BOS finished the year at 184.8m according to spotrac when everything was balanced out.
Also data point:
masslive.com/redsox/2020/02/mookie-betts-david-pri…
Right after the mookie/price trade, and, with taking on salary from Verdugo +prospects, sox were 18m below CBT. They only shed 16m from price. Ergo, mookie alone dropped then 2m below CBT.
GA: Thanks. From the masslive article:
“This (coming) year we need to be under the CBT,” Red Sox principal owner John Henry said Sept. 27. “That was something we’ve known for more than a year now.”
So, the goal was to reset the luxury tax. If trading Betts alone would only get them $2M below the luxury tax threshold, I see why they attached the Price contract to get another $16M below the tax threshold. $2M is not much of a buffer. Price didn’t opt out until after the trade.
If you take the final 2020 Spotrac payroll of $184.8M and add $32M for Price and then subtract $5.7M for Perez (keeping Price instead of Perez), the payroll would be $211.1M which is over the luxury tax threshold of $208M. So, I think they needed to attach half of Price’s contract to the Betts trade to reset the luxury tax.
I recall Betts made $20M in 2020 and the Dodgers took on $16M of David Price’s 2020 salary.
============================
That’s correct. The trade of both Betts and Price brought us down to $198M. It was only the subsequent decision by Price to sit out the season that brought us down to $182M.
But given that Price has down very little since the trade, his inclusion was easily warranted.
Bloom paid perez 5.5m +200k incentives for 5.7m
===============================
And Perez had an ERA+ of 107. Find me a rotation with a 107 ERA+ for $27.5M and I can start printing playoff tickets.
Henry is right about one thing… overall spending $ isn’t where the red Sox are coming up short. It’s how they’re spending their money and what is really starting to worry me is — they legitimately don’t seem to understand the problem.
Either Henry and Kennedy etc are lying through their teeth (which is possible) or more concerning they’re telling the truth and in which case I am as mentioned above increasingly worried.
What do I mean by that? The Red Sox are a different beast than a lot of other sports teams. The fans here are passionate, can be temperamental etc. but importantly, more than most other franchises, they love the ACTUAL players. Winning year in year out would solve a lot of issues but not the fundamental one. Why did the Red Sox set records for sellouts in the early 2000s? Despite having never won a WS since 1918? Because the city loved the players — Manny, Pedro, Nomar (before the end), Varitek, Ortiz etc etc etc. This core was not only a baseball team, they were personalities Bostonians welcomed into their homes every night and grew to love.
Yeah from a purely baseball perspective can you get equal or more value by spreading Xanders $ over Mondesi, Kluber and Turner? Probably. But the Red Sox fans (right or wrong) want to see the player that they watched grow up with the team… not just the team.
on top of all that… Bloom has also massively failed to win. So yeah winning might solve a lot of the problems… but ownership seems to be missing the underlying psyche of the fan base. It’s unusual, call is special or call it stupid if you like — it is how the city works and failing to understand that isn’t just sad for fans. It’s a losing bet financially as well.
Yeah Sox fans love the actual players, provided they’re still producing. Everyone loved Pedroia until he got injured and couldn’t play anymore. Then there were constant comments saying he should have retired and forfeited his remaining salary because he couldn’t play. Same thing with Sale now. And if they ponied up the money to keep Bogaerts around long term last year and he continued to see his HR and RBI numbers slide like they did last year there would be a lot of complaining about that too.
Jeff Zanghi10 hours ago
they love the ACTUAL players.
===============================
To be fair, there are two levels of RS fans. The ones that go to the games will spend 10 minutes applauding for someone who played here ten years ago.
But there are an awful lot who hate most of the team. Just read some of the comments in here.
Joe, there’s good reason to hate most of the guys left on the team now.
No, there isn’t.
That’s your opinion Joe. Or are you saying everyone needs to feel and think exactly like you?
Duval is not an every day caliber player. The collection of nobody’s that are over the hill is astounding. Paxton is a disaster. Verdugo has no business covering RF every day. You’ve got nobody experienced at catcher to tandem up and teach guys. Devers needs to be the DH, not turner. SS is a mess pulling the only true cf/from fenway option out of the OF. Yoshida pushed Verdugo somewhere he doesn’t belong, and, who knows how he’s going to translate over. You’ve got the geritol team in the pen. Kluber has his fastball speed catering off a cliff.
And these are guys brought in to replace people who both had a history of performing at fenway in prior years.
Especially Reese
Can’t hate on Reese . Guy just gets turned on at dollar tree
Can’t hate on Reese McQuire . Guy just gets a little frisky at dollar tree . He gets excited about a good deal.
I prefer Wawa but hey…….whatever works!
Bloom certainly has popped his chaim when it comes to losing.
You guys realize we were just a season away from being two games away from a World Series (without Mookie Betts)? Call it luck or whatever you want but we were still a competitive team who won important games in 2021.
If we didn’t have such a bad bullpen last year we probably would’ve won 5 to 10 more games, putting us in at least the playoff hunt.
I’m not saying the roster looks fantastic, but it’s February guys.
Peddy – Your comments make no sense.
The Red Sox were never two games from being in the world series, they were 2 WINS against an ELITE team from being in the world series and that happened by pure luck since Cole had a bad day and TB spit the bit for no apparent reason.
Now the team is not only without Mookie but they are without Bogey, Eovaldi, Vazquez, Benny, JD, Renfroe, Schwarber and others. This team doesn’t resemble the 2021 team.
Last year, the bullpen didn’t kill the season, the lack of overall talent killed the season. The monsters in 2021 weren’t monsters in 2022 and shouldn’t be because only a few of them were true all-stars. 2022 was the team that resembled the 2018 champions and so it was the last time the franchise will be competitive until new talent is procured to replace the lost talent.
A hope and a prayer is fine but lets not be delusional The 2023 Red Sox roster is a hot mess. Name the all-stars…. Devers and Sale if he’s able to stay healthy. Now name the starters that belong in AAA or lower…. Hernandez, Arroyo, McGuire, Casas. Now name the big question marks….. Yoshida, Mondesi, Paxton, Sale, Jansen, Duvall, Verdugo.
This team is weak in talent. February is early but Bloom has shown no tendency to find talent during the months of spring training. He has $20MM under the CAP still and he doesn’t even seem to understand where he is weak.
I love optimism when it is warranted. Optimism to me is we win over 65 games. It is dependent on Sale being healthy, Yoshida not being a bust, Devers not getting hurt and Kenley not dipping dramatically or being injured..
You forgot to include the second best starting pitcher in 2021 EROD
I’m I’m no way being optimistic. If you heard me, I’ve been negative on multiple occasions, but I will say two things:
1. It’s February. Cool down a bit. Anything can happen. We’ve won with low expectations before. This gives a bit of sense to stay positive.
2. I think you are UNDERVALUING the team. You may not like the approach, but there is talent. Jansen, Mondesi (injury prone but still very talented), we still have Devers, the Japanese star (potentially though I’m aware we have not seen him yet), and Casas.
I’m not willing to write them off in February. Could Bloom have done better? Absolutely, but here we are with expectations that are hard to tell right now and it’s only February.
The Red Sox were never two games from being in the world series, they were 2 WINS
=======================
I’m pretty sure that’s what Pedroia meant. I’m surprised that you didn’t realize that the “win” part was implied.
Exactly, thank you. People want to choose to argue and be difficult rather than understand my implied word.
JoeBrady – This one completely flew over your head.
I know Peddy understood 2 wins but his statement didn’t emphasize how incredibly far they were from going to a World Series. The luck of beating Cole on an off day or seeing the Rays trip over their own feet wasn’t a shock because neither team was dominant compared to Houston that year.
Think of the 2021 team as being in the AFC in football and they got lucky and played in the championship game against KC. The score was reasonably close early and people make the statement that the team ALMOST went to the Super Bowl. That’s simply not true. A juggernaut stood between them and the Super Bowl just like a juggernaut stood between the Red Sox and the World Series in 2021. It was never going to happen and fans should simply thank god for all the lucky breaks to get them to where they got to.
It wasn’t skill, it was pure luck and it’s all used up now!!! 2022 showed just how lucky they were in 2021. 2020 was the same team and showed the real talent level. Now the team is depleted from the 2020 level so expectation similar to 2021 are insane.
The talent is gone. We got to watch Bloom walk it out the door for 3 years!!!.
In the old west them are hangin offenses!! Now, all we can do is roast Bloom EVERY DAY on this website for destroying a once great team.
So you’re saying Pedroia was right, and you needed 200 words to do so?
JoeBrady – You have the mind to do addition and your in a calculus class. Stop while you are behind. You waste everyone’s time with your inane comments. Say something factual and not cute and people will respect your comments more.
Say something factual
========================
Pedroia was right, and you were wrong by not understanding that when he said “two games away”, he meant “two wins away”.
That’s a fact. Your failure to comprehend is no one’s problem but yours.
PulledaBloom
You can’t ignore the loss of Sale also, Hill on 1.5 months, Wacha on 1.5 months, of 200+ innings from the debutants of SP ( Winckowski, Bello, Crawford, Seabold ) and dung BP in the first fourth of season.
Bogie – Sale’s loss is only a loss if he comes back like Sale in 2023. Otherwise, it’s not a loss at all. It’s a guy permanently injured who couldn’t have been counted on in 2022 or 2021 or 2020.
Hill was contracted with a long history of injuries and frankly I thought he pitched more than I expected so that too really wasn’t a loss, it should have been expected.
Wacha was a blessing because he’s not really as good as he pitched when healthy. He too has an injury history so is it fair to say they came up short because their injury prone pitching staff was injured as expected? I agree it hurt them but we pretty much should have expected it so it shouldn’t be a surprise.
It is absolute on Bloom, he took chance with pitchers that have history of injuries and it malfunctioned as in 2021.
PulledaBloom
Errors of Bloom that brought to the cascade problems with lineup.
Bloom needed to be just saved Renfroe, prolong Schwarber, to revise a contract Bogie , to recondition BP 2-3 good hands, to sign Rodon before a season 2022.
Even exceeding a limit in 2022, we could be under a lid in 2023 and to compete.
Bogie wanted just payment, Bloom or guidance of Red Sox spoiled attitudes toward home-bred players.
San Diego of fussed with the suggestion in 280 million.
I don’t reprobate Bloom for that he didn’t interrupt this suggestion, I reprobate Bloom for that he ignored the contract of Bogaerts when it was necessary.
Xander passed to the club that ready now to fight for World Series.
With the exchange of Renfroe and ignoring of contract with Bogie, Bloom created the cascade of problems in outfield and SS in 2022 so in 2023.
Undoubtedly in 2023 I wanted to see such composition :
1.K.Schwarber DH $20 m AAV
2.X.Bogaerts SS $25 m AAV
3.A.Verdugo LF $6.3 m AAV
4.R.Devers 3B $17.5 m AAV
5.H.Renfroe RF $12 m AAV
6.T.Casas 1B MIN.
7.K.Hernandez CF $10 m AAV
8.C.Arroyo 2B $2 m AAV
9.C.Vazquez C $10 m AAV
Bench: R.McGuire C $ 1.2 m AAV; J.Duran OF MIN; R.Mondesi SS $3 m AAV; R.Refsnyder OF $1.2 m AAV;
40-Man: C.Rafaela CF MIN; E.Valdez INF MIN; ; W.Abreu MIN; C.Wong C/2B MIN; C.Murphy P MIN; F.German P MIN; T.Ward P MIN; J.Groome P MIN; A.Politi P MIN; N.Song P MIN.
SP:
1.C.Rodon $27 m AAV
2.C.Sale $25.6 m AAV
3.G.Whitlock $4.7 m AAV
4.B.Bello MIN
5.N.Pivetta $5.35 m AAV
6.K.Crawford MIN
7.B.Mata MIN
8.B.Walter MIN
Bullpen:
Closer – $16 m AAV
8-inn. – Houck MIN; Schreiber MIN; Bleier $3 m AAV
7-inn. – Paxton $4 m AAV; J.Rodriguez $2 m AAV
6-inn. – Z.Kelly MIN; Winckowski MIN; K.Ort MIN
$212.3 m + $ 4.9 m Barnes = $217.2 m LUX.TAX
It would leave 15 million for additions in term.
I would trade Dalbec after 2021 while he had a value, with Casas on approach and Schwarber in composition.
Dalbec can be exchanged for pitching with some prospect not from top-10 in Miami after 2021 while Bobby had a value.
T.Ward, A.Politi, J.Groome, F.German, N.Song would be protected from a rule 5.
I think that this group of players would fight for the first place in a division, our main prospects still in safety.
Bloom chose other way and accomplished errors.
If a season will be failure, Chaim will go away rather all.
It is therefore needed to cross fingers to hope that we will have a scenario of 2021.
Pedey: You are correct. It is not the end of the world as some posters on here would have us believe.
AITSTYW = Nobody said end of the world, we said end of a dynasty created by Dave Dombrowski and dismantled by Bloom.
If you want to pretend you are basking in sunlight, great go for it. At some point, you must open your eyes and see a massive rain cloud over head the size of Texas or greater!!
dismantled by Bloom.
========================
Yu keep forgetting 2019. Bloom inherited an 84-win team, with the highest payroll in baseball, and the 30th ranked farm. It was a disaster.
PAB: There was no dynasty under Dombrowski. I am not basking in sunlight. Wish I was.
And you keep insisting that the talent level was responsible for 84 wins instead of Cora screwing up spring training and throwing a rotation out there that was going through their ST during the regular season.
For a guy who like to cite how guys turn a corner or were playing at a better level than the results translated to you hang your hat on a losing argument.
Or, does blooms multiple losing seasons if roster construction mean BLOOM NEED TO GO since he keeps putting together losing teams?
JoeBrady – Once again you are flat out lying about what Bloom inherited.
Bloom inherited an injured team that won 84 games after winning a Ring. That’s what Bloom inherited. The active payroll was fine but mistakes from 5 seasons earlier made Boston’s payroll so high. DD dealt with the exact same problem. The farm system was 21st and when they gained points for Mayer ( a result of Bloom’s failure) the ranking rose to 9th. No great prospects were procured just one draft pick from a horrendous trade Bloom made. That’s nothing to be proud of for Bloom, he should be deeply embarrassed as are the fans looking at the 2023 roster.
Bloom came to Boston and had a golden goose and he gave it away. FACTS – you really need to look up the word and stop spreading your misinformation.
AITTSTYW – What do you call 3 consecutive Division Titles in the best division in baseball? A slump? Nobody had done it before and the team assembled by DD made that happen. It was a dynasty that got derailed by Cora, injuries and Mookie taking issue with racism by the owners.
More nonsense. If it was a case of them not being ready, then they would improve as the season progressed. But the rotation 1st half ERa was better than the second half.
That was your first mistake.
And if their 2019 results were weak because they threw a few less innings in ST, then they would presumably bounce back in their subsequent seasons. Porcello, Price & Sale did almost nothing after 2018.
Joe, just a question. How many 2019 sox games did you watch? Not look up stats for. Or look at player results. I mean watch.
JoeBrady – Try to remember things how they actually happened. Nate got hurt early, Sale struggled from the bad ST plan along with Price and the over use without proper ST early caused injuries to the slated starters. By mid season nearly every SP was battling with some type of problem except E-ROD who had arguably his best year if a guy that bad can have a best year.
The ERAs don’t tell the 2019 story, the hitting does. Despite a rough year for the top 4 SPs the hitters allowed the team to have an over .500 record in the following months – May, June, July and August. Cora screwed March and April with his inability to manage and plan Spring Training for the pitchers. They were 4 games below .500 by the end of April and 10 games back. Season over!!
Yes, the hitters showed how great they were by winning the next four months but in August the heart got ripped from the team when DD was fired. 2019 was a bad year for a great team.
Your theory on how pitching works shows you have no experience as a pitcher. Price, Sale and Porcello all had Cora as a manager to derail their careers. All 3 did well under Farrell but sucked under Cora. That’s not a coincidence. When E=ROD a journeyman #5 SP has the best season among 2 Cy Young winners and Sale the back to back all-star starter for the AL that speaks volumes to how bad Cora has been with respect to working with pitchers.
When it was decided that Sale needed TJ after Cora changed his mechanics mid-season he should have been fired and exiled to Little League to learn how to manage.
Bloom inherited an injured team that won 84 games
===========================
Who was injured? Vazquez, Bogaerts, Devers, Benni, JBJ, Betts, and JDM played more games in 2019 than they did in 2018.
ERod, Price, Sale, and Porcello started the exact same number of games in 2018 that they did in 2019.
You know, this is one of the reasons why sites like B-R exist.
How many 2019 sox games did you watch?
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No idea. Do you track how many games you watch each year?
I only ask because you don’t seem to remember HOW the 2019 season unfolded, and, point to the team record as some kind of ‘proof’ things needed to be blown up.
Fact – Cora screwed up ST putting the team in a hole.
Fact – after the slow start, they dealt with repeated injuries to the rotation.
Fact – the BOS squad won at a winning pct rate at the top of the league after the slow start with guys gritting it out and trying to play hurt.
Fact – eventually they made the choice to shut some guys down
Fact – they fired dombrowski in early Sept gutting the team and killing morale.
I honestly don’t think you watched many games, or, IF you did, you’ve forgotten how the season went.
And if you think the ONE 84-78 record (still a winning season) was grounds to kick DD out, and blow thing up, you MUST think bloom should’ve been gone multiple times over by now. He’s spent more than DD did, and, failed to put together a winning squad 3 times already, barely squeaking by with the 4th.
Yet, you claim not to.
Joe- look again at your B-R pages.
I give you one hint from memory – Sale was shut down, for good, the second week of August due to the forearm that later just needed TommyJohn after playing through the issues a few weeks.
Again, having watched the 2019 games instead of just looking at yearend stats makes a difference….
JoeBrady – You conveniently forgot Sale, Eovaldi. Price, Pedroia, Pearce, Moreland, Holt, Wright and Chavis.
Also, since when does being injured two years in a row not count as an injury in year 2? That makes no sense. Check the starts and compare it to what a healthy pitcher throws. E-Rod had 34 and Porcello had 32. After that Sale had 25, Eovaldi 23 and Price 22. Subtract each number from 34 and you get the total of missed starts – 32 starts missed by the top 3 SPs on the team in 2019. Sorry but your argument wasn’t well thought out yet again!!!
FYI… B-R is a great reference that I gave you. Too bad you don’t use it!!
JoeBrady – That was a rhetorical question that was pointing out how little you actually know about the Red Sox and their performances year to year.
WOW!!
All nonsense. Their top-4 pitchers didn’t perform and never really performed ever again. For Price, Sale, Porcello, and ERod, it has not gotten better post-2018. It’s not like they took one year off.
How does that help your case? My case is that the team went down hill, and your counter to that is that Sale went down hill?
The real problem is that the Red Sox farm system has not produced any stars since Devers and any good pitchers since maybe Jon Lester. It is very difficult to build a pennant contender based almost purely on free agents unless you spend like the Mets, and even then, its hard.
Brayan Bello? Had a respectable FIP last year. Decent pitcher.
What about Eduardo Rodriguez?
@pwn: Eduardo came in trade when he was at AAA. He was already a largely developed prospect the first time he pulled on that uniform
What do you expect from someone who calls a guy with a career 4.71 era a star haha!
Who are you even talking about?
Did anyone call Bello a “star”, you nimrod?
First of all, he hasn’t had a large enough sample size to call it a career. Second of all, he did well in the Minors. Third of all, he had an FIP of 2.92, which is a better indicator than ERA.
pwndroia – a fabricated number like FIP NEVER is better than a fact like ERA.
Read through all the bogus assumptions built into FIP. Two knowledgeable baseball people could come up with two radically different numbers if their belief in the assumptions varied greatly. That’s about as far from a fact that you can get. ERA is a fact. FIP is an estimate built from lots and lots of assumptions which could vary across experts.
You’re right. But it’s even harder when you let guys walk in the rule 5, and then, get forced into taking what you can get for others by having to DFA guys due to poor roster management.
It’s also hard when you blow draft pick compensation by mismanaging payroll by chasing retread reclamation and buying lottery ticket low-probablity prospects. Then trading away controllable pitching that was on an upswing for prospects with a scouted ceiling of 4th OF and Up-and-down utility infielder doesn’t help either.
Really, it’s just hard to build a pennant contender with you’ve got an over his head PBO that doesn’t have a road map set that he sticks to.
But it’s even harder when you let guys walk in the rule 5,
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In the past 20 years, we’ve lost one player that ever amounted to anything.
Why do you waste your time criticizing things that haven’t happened?
Joe, remind me, how many guys were picked last year in rule 5 from the red sox? And, where did I say anything about 20 years?
3 guys. So what? Every team in baseball loses guys to the Rule 5. The Yankees lost Rodriguez and Greene. The difference is that Yankee fans don’t have meltdowns every time they lose a player.
And yet, you keep saying bloom need to build a farm, and he needs to have a pipeline of young talent balh blah blah.
Letting guys like ward and politi go without trying them in the rotation, while keeping brasier, paxton and signing kluber is not the way to have cheap young controllable talent that some people are clamoring for.
Groome should’ve gotten a shot with bos instead of a trade to SD for hosmer who had no spot, and 2 spare parts, one with a ceiling as a 4th of, and the other as a ceiling of an up-and-down utility infielder, neither being everyday player caliber.
Letting guys like ward and politi go without trying them in the rotation,
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LOL! You seriously want to try Ward & Politi in our rotation this year? FG had Politi ranked as our #46 prospect. Ward is slightly better, but was still ranked #18.
Joe, I wanted them tried out LAST year at the end of the year. In August and September, when you knew you were cooked.
They’ve got control. You need to see if they can be cheap 4/5s in the rotation while you spent on 2/3s.
So, yeah, I’d rather see if I can make a servicable 600k arm rather than trot out the same old same old. If you traded away wacha and eovaldi in August, you could’ve looked at them.
Paxton isn’t the future of ANY team. Neither is kluber.
Ward and Politi are very, very, very unlikely to be useful major league pitchers. As for Kluber and Paxton, three possibilities in 2023: 1) Stuff unexpectedly clicks and the Sox are in the playoff hunt and those two are part of it. 2) Sox are out of the playoff hunt but can turn one or two of them into useful prospects in a deadline deal, or 3) One or both prove ineffective and/or injured and, well, it’s not my money.
jtango – I like your thinking on this one. Kluber and Paxton are wildcards but so is Sale. All three need to be at their best level of their career to keep this team from not losing 90 to 100 games. The hitting is so bad and people don’t really understand how critical Bogey, JD and Vazquez were to the teams hitting success in 2021. Same can be said for Schwarber and Renfroe.
They are all gone now. The pitching needs to be elite for the team to stay in games and win 1-0 or 2-1. This isn’t the old Red Sox hitting machine DD left Bloom. This is a AAA hitting team that needs outstanding pitching to stay in games.
I like your thinking on trading the pitching and I think we should fire Bloom and then trade Devers and Yoshina to build a war chest of nearly $200MM under the cap to re=build the team over the next two seasons until Mayer and Yorke might arrive. Define the long-term solutions at each position and have them all be greater in value than cost. Right now, looking at the roster I don’t see many with value greater than cost.
Sale could be. Paxton could be for 1 year so not long-term. Kluber could be but it’s more likely he’s a break-even guy unless he reverts back to his old form. Pivetta is of greater value than cost as is Houck and Whitlock. So the pitchng staff is in pretty good shape it just needs reinforcements at the top.
The hitting does not have a single player who is worth more than he costs. Casas could be. Devers will never be. Story won’t be. Mondesi could be. McGuire won’t be. Arroyo could be a break-even. Duval could be or he could be not even close to matching his cost with production. Kiki will never be. Refsnyder could be a break-even. At that point, the money is so low and the upside is so low, the evaluations simply don’t have significance.
Lastly, Yoshida could be worth his price but it’s highly unlikely. He might be a break-even but that too is unlikely. His defense is worse than people realize. I just read the Baseball American summary on his defense and I was shocked because they usually don’t slam guys.
“He’s a below-average runner and below-average defender in left field whose range is severely limited. He plays hard and catches what is hit to him, but he struggles to reach balls in the gap or down the line. He has below-average arm strength that limits him to left field”
Hard to picture that description being worth $18MM for one year let alone 5 years!! OUCH.
Lets sell off all players not projected to exceed their costs and change the entire philosophy of procuring players back to what DD used. A positive BENEFIT/COST ratio criterion..
Pulled, I don’t think you could trade Devers without attaching somethings of value, so, that warchest idea may be out, not that it’d happen anyways. The contract he’s on…. look. I get why the brass caved to his demands, I really do. Doesnt make it smart.
Devers is useless on defense. He’s a liability on the diamond. Now, he hits a hr every 5 days. Ok. But is that worth over 30 million a year? Not really. For 30+ million on bat-only you better hit 50 hrs every year for a 7 year window, and 40 or 60 for at least 3 more. His production is a 20-something million contract.
Yoshi? Wild card. Many other execs called him worth far less than the sox offered. I’m not sure you couldn’t pass him through waivers right now. He’d need to prove an ability to both hit and adapt to pitchers 6 months from now. He’d likely start off stronger until pitchers get a book on him and then we see. If he’s a lf and only hits 12 hrs a year? It’s an overpay. He needs to hit 25hr, and over .280 avg to be worth his money.
The problem is I still don’t believe in the prospects that are overhyped as a ‘next wave’because they are so far from the majors. We’ve heard so many times that ‘xyz’ is going to be a star… and then they come up? And fail to live up to it. Time to stop hyping a level and gulf coast guys as all stars when they’ve literally done nothing yet.
Meanwhile, the team is cutting bait and tearing apart the roster expecting those holes to be plugged by these guys. You make those choices when you’ve got a high talent at AAA knocking at the door. Not before then.
I wanted them tried out LAST year
========================
Politi only had two starts last year in the minors, and you wanted to give him starts in the pros?
Ward has 41 IPs in AA and none in AAA. You won’t find out anything that you don’t already know by starting him against MLB hitters.
Joe, guys make the jump all the time skipping AAA. But, you’re cherry-picking again.
Politi only made 2 AAA starts…BUT, he made 38 appearances in games at AAA in ’22 putting up a 2.41 era and 1.01 whip. With how terrible the pen was he should’ve gotten a call.
During the same year he also had 12 games of 2.03 era and 0.75 whip at AA ball.
No reason not to bring him up. Chris sale, garret Whitlock, plenty of guys start out in the pen first and if their stuff plays get tried as starters later. If you bring them up and don’t let them go without testing them at least.
Ward, was an advanced college arms when drafted by the sox. Not some 17 year old high school kid. And he had great results until TJ shut him down. So don’t pretend like he was some inexperienced kid who didn’t have a track record yet. He also has good results at AA upon return.
He had more experience than Garrett Whitlock had under his belt when the sox took him as a rule 5. didnt you know that? Whitlock, fresh off TJ, hasn’t shown the stuff was still there, played 14 games in AA ball in 2019 before getting hurt, then the sox picked him and shuttled him straight to the majors?
So don’t talk like what I suggest isn’t commonly done.
JoeBrady – This team could be 10 games out by May 1. Why not have live tryouts for the future. If ownership had a clue, they would fire Bloom by May 1 and play for the draft pick and the reconfiguration of the roster. The new GM can take a broom and sweep out the guys like Kiki and McGuire and start setting his sights on good value to cost players for the future.
The sooner the damage from Bloom can be fixed the better.
jtango – The farm system lag is several years so who is really responsible for the lack of production from the farm sytem since Devers?
Devers was signed in 2013 by Cherington along with 1st round pick Trey Ball. One hit and one miss.
2014 saw Cherington take Chavis and Kopech in the first round. Chavis was pushed from 3B because of Devers and now plays 1B in Pittsburgh. Is that a farm systerm failure or a front office failure under Bloom? Kopech has played far less than Chavis in the CWS organization and brought Sale to Boston. Is that a failure in drafting pitchers or a failure in developing pitchers? He took 6 years to get a Starting spot in the majors.
2015 saw Benintendi picked in the first round by Cherington. A great pick and a player who could be a home grown left fielder with more talent than the current left fielder who costs $3MM more per year. Benny was added after Devers and should be in LF in 2023 but isn’t. That’s not a farm system flaw that’s a front office flaw.
2016 saw Dombrowski select Groome with his first pick. He’s a pitcher that either lacks the expected talent to justify his early selection or has had very bad pitching instruction in the minors. I have no idea which is true. Groome will be 24 in 2023.
2017 saw DD select Tanner Houck with his first pick. Tanner has already proven to be an excellent pick. Is the farm system week because he’s not at Mookie’s level or Devers level? How often does a farm system produce all-stars year after year? Boston did with Bogey, Mookie, Devers, Benny but still people said the farm system wasn’t that good!! Houck in 3 seasons has a 3.02 ERA and 1.12 WHIP. That in itself his very impressive and proof that Boston does grow pitchers!!
2018 saw DD select Triston Casas with the first pick. He will be 23 in 2023 and is the next in line to prove what you are saying is wrong. Hopefully, he can do that in 2023.
So to correct your statement
Boston since Devers has produced Tanner Houck an excellent pitcher who has #1 SP stuff or even Closer stuff and simply needs a chance to do one or the other. That’s the problem with having Cora as the manager.
Boston has also produced Benny who is now in Chicago after being an all-star in 2022. He proves that both hitters and pitchers are still being produced from the farm system There is no issue with the farm system and there never has been one in the last decade. That’s just uneducated fans speaking without knowing the facts.
There are many potential stars in the farm system that will have a chance to be the next to graduate after Casas. Bello has a great shot at sticking in the majors. Rafaela also could be a future home grown starter in the outfield.
There is nothing wrong with the Farm System and there hasn’t been anything wrong with it. Check the facts. A far better graduation rate for starters in the last decade than most teams in the MLB.
Dude, you are living in a fantasy world.
Houck? Chavis? Bello? Benintendi (and he came up 6 years ago)? This is the best you got? Just about every other team has produced a lot more major league talent than the Sox have over the past 5 years or so. Every contending team has certainly produced more. We won’t be one until we start doing it again.
Just about every other team has produced a lot more major league talent than the Sox have over the past 5 years or so.
===========================
The haters tend to ignore reality.
I’d be very surprised if we weren’t last in farm production since Theo left. Cherington & DD produced Devers & Benni, and nothing else since the 2011 draft. It’s too early to pronounce judgement on DD’s picks, but as it stands thru the end of 2022. we had almost no help from the farm.
jtango – Name them. big shot. all talk no facts.
Houston has produced guys comparable to Betts, Bogaerts, Devers, Benny etc. but who else. LAD dealt for many of their star prospects.
Come up with 5 farm systems that have produced more talent than Boston in the last 10 years. You can’t so I rest my case.
Also, you don’t think Houck has proven he’s a legitimate MLB pitcher? What planet are you living on? Chavis may be the least talented of the graduates mentioned but he did go from farm hand to a starter for Boston to a starter for Pittsburgh. That’s more than most farm hands do.
Benny was picked up by Boston after Devers which address the original statement. The whole point is that there has been an excellent progression of graduates from the Boston farm system.
JoeBrady – Get off you couch and look it up. Since Theo left The Red Sox have had one of the most productive farm systems in baseball. You can’t be given all the answers. Do some real homework and prove yourself wrong!!
Okay, list a few of the prospects that we acquired post-Theo that are currently helping us. I’ll give you a headstart.
Devers 4.4 bWAR in 2022
Benni 3.2
Houck 1.6
Bello 0.4
Your turn. List them all.
JoeBrady – Why are you fixated on Cherington? I don’t get it.
He didn’t do a great job but he was light years better than Bloom.
You pointed out it was too early for DD or Bloom so what’s your point? Many of the great Red Sox prospects came from Theo. He was in place the longest and did an excellent job. I never understood why ownership wasn’t enamored with him.
Also, using bWAR means nothing to baseball fans. It’s a contrived meaningless number unless you are estimating the future and you are talking about the past. Try to read up on FACTS versus ESTIMATES and start arguing your points with facts not conjecture.
I think that Casas and Rafaela the nearest prospects that can work in 2023 and farther.
Also Mata, Walter, Murphy,
M.Lugo ( start AA) ETA 2024.
Thank you DD.
2014 saw Cherington take Chavis and Kopech in the first round. Chavis was pushed from 3B because of Devers and now plays 1B in Pittsburgh.
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Chavis is not in Pittsburgh, nor on a major league roster. He’s not a player. He’s had a 3/1 K/W at every minor league level, and is 345/59 in the pros.
JoeBrady – What roster did Chavis play on during the last season of MLB baseball. You hated him in Boston and you still hate the kid. Pull you head out of your hind quarters and recognize the guy graduated from the farm system and has started for 2 MLB teams whether you like him or not.
You hated him in Boston and you still hate the kid.
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Lying about these things makes you a loser.
I thought Chavis would make a fine UIF. He could handle 2nd & 3rd, and a little bit of LF. I thought he might have a .725-.750 OPS.
I was wrong. But the only thing worse than being wrong, is not being able to admit it. He can’t handle high heat, and can’t handle anything on the outside since he steps in the bucket.
Everyone in BB knows this, which is why he is on a minor league contract.
It is time for you to let go.
JoeBrady – Hating on Chavis again. Wow. Give the kid a break.
Try to remember the point that related to Chavis and Kopech. They were two players drafted by Cherington that ended up in the majors. Chavis started for both Boston and Pittsburgh. He’s played the equivalent of 2 seasons in the majors so his career is ahead of his still but he met the criterion. He became a starter on the MLB team. That’s production from the farm system. They all don’t have to be Mookie level players. A good roster needs both expensive farm hands and inexpensive farm hands to fill out the roster. Betts, Bogey, Devers are expensive ones. Benny is moderately priced and Chavis is inexpensive and may simply fill a bench role like Dalbec or he may improve with age and exerience. The point is they made it to the bigs and started. That is the primary goal of prospects.
Again, pay attention and remember the context so you don’t digress into more hate ramblings about Chavis.
PulledaBloom
JoeBrady – Hating on Chavis again. Wow. Give the kid a break.
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Lying about these things makes you a loser.
I thought Chavis would make a fine UIF.
JoeBrady – So saying a guy who barely played two seasons doesn’t have what it takes to be a MLB player is a compliment? Not to me.
He’s played less than 326 games and you’ve declared him as a bench player at best. This guy has had a rough time since being picked with the first pick in the draft. Nobody should have to endure an ugly divorce between their parents as he achieves his goal of being drafted in the first round. Can you measure the impact of such an event on an 18 yr old ball player? Then, he has to play behind a guy who can’t field a lick because his organization wants to build a relationship with DR baseball? Then, he plays for a know nothing manager who puts him into a utility role as his tryout. He was an outsider in the Red Sox organization from the start and is far better off in Pittsburgh or wherever he lands in 2023. At least, he got to play 3/4 of a season in Pittsburgh last year. That doubled his MLB time. He had a bit of a sophomore slump but we’ll see if he can take the next step or end up like Kiki a perennial bench guy. Too bad his father never played with a manager in the bigs who could give him a job he didn’t deserve.
Pulled – you’ve got 2 missed data points on groome. He punched a wall when spending time at ST with kopech, breaking his hand. That cost time. Then he needed TJ. That also cost time.
He put things together fairly well finally at AAA, and went to the PCL in the SD trade abomination for hosmer. He had a 3 era in the hitter friendly PCL, and, he put up a 3xx in Worcester as well. All signs point that hroome will be a mlb player, still has a 96mph fastball, still has offspeed pitches that work even if the curve isn’t quite what it looked like it could’ve been.
GA – There is still hope for Groome but he didn’t graduate from the farm system yet so he was an exception to the point being made about how many guys have graduated to the MLB from the Boston Farm System.
I too hope Groome makes it in 2023.
It would be nice to come out of the gates winning just to silence everyone.
jtango9 hours ago
The real problem is that the Red Sox farm system has not produced any stars since Devers and any good pitchers since maybe Jon Lester.
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Always nice to have a real baseball fan in the house. We had a pretty good run ONLY because Theo had a great draft in 2011. We went 6 years and had maybe one draftee with a career WAR > 4.
If you aren’t getting some good, cheap talent from the minors every year, you cannot compete.
For all the talk about the money spend by the NYY, NYM, SD, Philly, the fact remains that they have also way out-produced in the minor leagues.
jtango: You are correct. Dave Dombrowski depleted in the farm system and did not restock the value which is why the Red Sox farm system rankings plummeted. In fairness, DD did not stay long enough after the World Series win to replenish the farm system. It can take a while to build a strong farm system. Bloom has taken the Red Sox farm from bottom of the pack to middle of the pack in 3 years which is pretty good.
In fairness, DD did not stay long enough after the World Series win to replenish the farm system.
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It’s too early to judge the DD prospects, and way too early to judge Bloom’s.
What we do know is that the post-Theo prospects added just 6 bWAR to the 2022 team. Even Cohen money could not have made that a good team.
Joe: I’m trying to say that Dombrowski traded a lot of value from the farm system to help win a World Series and Bloom is working to replace that value now.
AITSTYW – NOT TRUE.
1 – DD traded over rated players that didn’t have great future value. Case in point 6 years later Moncada is still not an all-star despite being ranked #1 by the idiot prospect ranking services nor Kopech nor Espinoza. Yet what Boston got for those over rated players helped them to 3 Division Titles and and a ring. Nothing was depleted by those trades.
2 – Bloom has yet to make ONE acquisition in the minors to refill the empty cupboard you are suggesting. NOBODY of value has been acquired.
Draft picks are not related to Bloom other than the Mayer pick. Bloom made that happen by putting a huge hole in the bottom of the boat to start the 2020 season. That’s nothing to brag about.
FACTS are really important!!!
You and Joe babble on like two high school freshman trying to fit in with the upperclassmen by saying things off the top of your head that are simply wrong. If you want to discuss stuff with the upperclassmen, do some homework and know your topics better!!
I agree. Except for a slight overpay on Kimbrel, I had no problems with the trades. In fact, there is a pretty good chance he sold very high on Moncada. He had 64 Ks in 177 AA ABs. He was youngish, but that’s still 217 per 600 ABs.
But the fact remains that we’ve had very little help from the farm since Theo left. The haters will jump up and down but they won’t be able to name anyone besides Devers and Benni.
And that is probably the worst in baseball.
PAB: All the people ranking MLB farms systems and have the Red Sox farm system improving say you are wrong. I can’t explain the whole Red Sox farm system to you.
AITSTYW – You need to put the ranking systems into context. A rating is a futures value and we are discussing actual value as the player graduates to the majors and contributes. There is a big difference. Swihart was thought to have a better future than Mookie many years ago. That opinion was bogus like so many rankings.
According to the way you like to measure a farm system we should get big credit for Swihart since he was in the top 50. Mookie would have added no value one year then some value the next year when he made the top 100.
In the end, Mookie represents the farm system as one of the greatest success stories of the past decade along with Bogey, Devers and to a slightly lesser degree Benny. The graduates define the success of the farm system and the rankings reflect an ESTIMATE of the future success of the farm system and are unreliable. Mookie’s performance is fact, Mookie’s farm system ranking was NOT FACT as he proved every year after he made the majors.
So if you want to stick with the idea that if supposed experts say something it must be right then at least understand what they are saying. They think the FUTURE of the farm system success is up due to adding Mayer to the farm system. They also say the rest of the farm system is DOWN since Bloom took over from an acquired prospects perspective. Downs really killed it by coming in at #44 and leaving not ranked. That’s a huge drop-off.
What team in the AL East finishes below the Sox?
One that has something go very, very, very wrong on a titanic-voyage level of tragedy/screw-up.
THEY LIVE – NOBODY. The real AL East question is will Baltimore continue to improve and take over 3rd place. Also, if Judge regresses do the Yankees have enough pitching to carry an inept hitting team or will Toronto blow them away in 2023?
THEY LIVE – Will Boston get a top 5 pick in the 2024 draft? I think yes. If I am wrong, then I hope some miracle happens where they make the playoffs because seasons like 2022 are worthless. No good draft pick and no playoffs.
PulledaBloom5 hours ago
THEY LIVE – NOBODY
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Two very underrated movies.
Tone deaf.
The problem Mr Henry is that FSG don’t spend at their other asset Liverpool FC. Their net spend on transfers for last two years is about 8th in the ESP…..where as they are ranked top 5 wealthiest soccer teams IN THE WORLD.
There’s a trend.
Soccer is a game invented by savages, kicking around the severed head of thier enemy…..baseball is actually intelligent.
You would prefer a 5-hour 9-inning Yankees-Red Sox game to an intra-city derby that’s done and dusted in only 2 hours.
Yes, I love long, competitive baseball games.
I also prefer long baseball games to boring soccer.
We use implements of war to kill children. Yes, we are far superior.
It’s also Masonic.
And….invented by beer drinkers!
As a New Yorker that hates all the NY teams in all the sports I have found myself rooting for the Redsox on more than 1 occasion ( am a cubs fan first and foremost). This year I am going to root for them just to watch all the backpedalling from the anti-Bloom posters. Would love to see Xander falter, Sox in ALCS, Jansen get 45 saves and cy young votes, Yoshida ROY and as a cherry on top..Bloom win executive of the year.
He obviously hasn’t heard of the Detroit Tigers.
Harris is assessing what they have this year and I think we’ll see improvement in the standings this year and some more movement on trades, free agent signings and graduations from the minors next year.
Did you even read.the article?
Rah rah
I’ve got some koolaid for sale…and free ticket to Jtown
Hiss says the Saber Tooth 😉 Who doesn’t like Kool Aid…just not from some dude named Jim.
Oh and our owner in Detroit sucks if that’s what you were getting at.
Pathetic team and “management.” Can’t wait to hear all the responses from the oily, smarmy, east coast trash people that root for this team of clowns.
I think I just might find a new team to root for except for the fact that baseball and the Red Sox are in my DNA.
Henry, Bloom, Cora and anyone else you want to “target” in the organization are all excellent at what they do or they wouldn’t be there. Yes that’s right, excellent.
Watch what happens this baseball season before you shoot off your hatred for everything Red Sox.
The problem is what they do.
Henry is great at messing up a good thing with key timed self destructive interferences (hanley/Pablo? Valentine? Run out Francona? Hire bloom?)
Bloom is great at destroying clubhouse morale, misallocating payroll, signing bad contracts.
Cora is great at cheating, and, screwing up ST while caring more about making friends in the clubhouse with players than making sound managing decisions.
Yes, they are GREAT at what they do.
“False narrative.” So it’s false to say that Chaim Bloom inherited a young core of Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts, Devers, Benintendi, and Vazquez and only one of them remains?
only one of them remains?
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It’s called free agency. Once a player gets paid like a free agent, they seldom return any real value.
Betts, Benitendi and Vazquez were all traded…they did not leave via free agency.
They pissed Xander off last year to the point he said he was leaving before midseason and never had any serious discussions on re-signing this off-season.
All were FAs by the end of the season. The only way to win in baseball is to have a constant rep[enishment of the farm.
Take a look at every playoff team from last year. They all have much greater value from the minors. This is not even up for debate. We have 6+ years of almost no non-Theo production.
JoeBrady – You are talking out of both sides of your mouth!!
First you say it takes YEARS to judge a farm system set of choices by GM and now you are declaring teams in the playoffs as having great farm systems? Does that mean their GMs from 6 years ago or more were great? If so, stack those against Boston”s farm system during the 6 to 10 years ago time frame. Oh yeah, you can’t compare because Bloom got rid of all the stars from the Farm System.
You sure have lots of nonsense spewing forth today. Try documenting ONE comment so people can take you seriously. Not up for debate?
EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS UP FOR DEBATE…. ALWAYS!!!
You really don’t get it? That was their core. You do not wholesale your young core coming off a World Series win. You extend them to extend your window.
And what did they get for trading that core? Anything of lasting value? No. If you’re going to sell the core at least get something of value in return–see Tampa Bay.
Betts never made it to free agency as he was traded to the Dodgers and agreed to extension right away, offering $65 million more than the Sox. He was 27 years old when they traded him.
Benintendi just became a Free Agent this off-season. The Red Sox traded him in the 2021. He was 25 years old when they traded him.
Christian is the only one they traded at the deadline.
First you say it takes YEARS to judge a farm system set of choices by GM and now you are declaring teams in the playoffs as having great farm systems?
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Every team that made the playoffs last year had great contributions from the farms. This is again, not a debate. The RS have produced very little since Theo left.
The Sox felt like they couldn’t sign Betts , so they traded him…. In order to get something for him.
Benintendi was terrible at the end for the Red Sox.
Two completely different scenarios.
If you’re pointing to 2020 as ‘benintendi being terrible’ you’ve got no eye for talent or business evaluating paseball moves.
Jose altuve hit .219 in 2020. Should he have been. Cut and run out of baseball? Plenty of good to great players didn’t do well in that screwed up abomination of a season. You don’t cut young talent based on 2020. No sane gm made decisions based on it.
Dogdays2 – Betts was forced out by ownership. Bloom traded him at the wrong time and minimized his return.
Benny got hurt but still produced at at level above his salary and he was instrumental in winning the world series. Benny was an all-star last year because he recovered from his injury and the poor coaching the Red Sox provided him.
Benny will be 28 in 2023. He put up OPS+ numbers in 2017, 18 and 19 of 118, 103 and 123 respectively. He regressed to 99 when they tried to make him a power hitter and then he got hurt in 2020. Bloom signed him to two years and $10MM on Feb 8 2020 prior to trading him a year later knowing he was still under control and had a 107 OPS+ even after his disasterous 2020.
Who trades a controlled player averaging a 107 OPS+ with two years left of control? His cost was only $5MM. His numbers far outshine Kiki’s and he’s making $10MM.
Benny had one terrible season due to COVID and Injuries. His other seasons were good for a guy making the minimum and then being paid slightly above the minimum in arbitration. He, unlike most of the 2023 roster, had greater value than cost in 2020 and still does in 2023 when he’s making $15MM a year.
Your take on Benny is a bad one based on the numbers.
How about 2019?? Those are good numbers for a corner outfielder in Fenway??
You’re talking about him like he’s a superstar. He’s been basically a 2 WAR player for four years!
A left fielder with no power isn’t a huge loss.
I am basing it on the numbers.
I know he was instrumental in helping the Sox win a World Series so I get it. But because he was good value when he was making less money, doesn’t make him a great value as his salary increases.
Are you Benintendi’s agent?
I’ve never seen someone so passionate about a slightly above-average player. He was so fantastic that he wound up on the Royals.
I wouldn’t criticize someones baseball acumen because he isn’t their favorite player. Meanwhile, You want to build a team around a LF with three homers.
Brett Gardner was better than Benny in 2019.
DogDays – You are right there is a convergence that happens between controlled salaries, arbitration salaries and free agent salaries. The progression is normally upward while the VALUE of a player (lets measure for simplicity purposes with OPS+) may not keep pace.
Thus, Benny in 2016 made $172K and had an OPS+ of 118 (well over league average!). You can’t have enough of those type guys!! Great VALUE at extremely low cost. In 2017 he made $549K and produced a 103 OPS+ at the age of 22. That, once again, was far more VALUE than COST!! In year 3 as a 23 year old he cost Boston $620.5K and produced a 123 OPS+. This was ENORMOUS VALUE for his cost. So after three seasons this guy has banked a ton of VALUE over his COST and the team won a RING with his help and 3 Division Titles. NOT BAD and it should have ENDEARED him to the organization but it didn’t.
In 2019, Benny cost $717.5K (still under $1MM) and he put up an OPS+ of 99 or league average. Less than a million for a league average player is a steal!! This is yet another year he banked VALUE over COST. In 2020, COVID hit and he got injured. He cost $1.26MM and only got to play in 14 games and did terribly in his 52 plate appearances and 39 at bats. Yes he hit just .103 but his OBP was .314 so he walked twice as many times as he got a hit and his OBP was higher than 6 of Kiki’s last 9 seasons and Cora leads off with Kiki.
Why would a guy who has built up so much good will with his VALUE greatly exceeding his COST for 5 years be traded away because he struggled ONE season due to COVID and injuries? It makes NO SENSE.
After Boston Benny’s VALUE to COST ratio has remained positive as anyone who understands baseball would have expected. In 2021 he made $6.4MM and provided a 106 OPS+. Great price for a guy over league value.
In 2022, Benny made $8.5MM and had a 120 OPS+ and made the all-star team. Once again, his VALUE is far greater than his COST.
I hate when facts prove a comment so incredibly wrong but that’s the case here. The guy has played 7 seasons now and has never been a bad investment by under performing his cost except when COVID hit and he was injured. That’s EXACTLY what you want in a roster spot. More VALUE than COST. In 2023, Benny will cost $15MM. That amount demands at least a 120 OPS+ in my opinion. Is he a good value at $15MM? I think he is because I think he will exceed 120. Yoshida, on the other hand, needs to exceed 125 since he makes $18MM. Do I think Yoshida will exceed 125? I would be shocked and pleased if he did. it’s unlikely since this is MLB pitching not Japanese pitching.
If you look at Yoshida’s Japanese numbers you see the following:
Batting average – .330 to .350. That needs to translate to .280 to .320
Walk rate of 0.90 to 1.10 making his OBP roughly .420 to .450.
This is where the MLB pitchers should vary his results. His projected OBP in the MLB should be between .350 and .400 until we see actual results.
His Isolated power in Japan was roughly .200 to .220. In the MLB that number should drop significantly too. If he gets a .180 Isolated Power number that will be a Red Sox blessing.
So predicting the difference between facing Japanese pitchers and MLB pitchers is hard to guess prior to the fact. Seiya Suzuki was the last defector who went from hitting over .300 with an OBP of 430 a SLG of .640 and an OPS over 1.0 in Japan to batting .262 with an OBP of .336 a SLG of .433 and an OPS of .770.
If that is indicative of Yoshida’s drop then look for a .275 average, .350 OBP, a .425 SLG and an OPS around 775. Is that worth $18MM a year?
I’m evaluating Benny as a player, you guys keep talking about his value. I agree he was a good value early in his career, based on the fact he wasn’t making much money.
Agreed, but so what? He was terrible in 2020 (ok injuries, shortened season fine) but average in 2019 as well. The Red Sox, at that point were contenders and decided they didn’t want an average LF. He’s not a difference-maker kind of player at all.
Your value argument would make more sense with a small-market team. This was a team trying to win a WS.
As far as “should have endeared himself to the organization”, that’s all emotional stuff that’s for the fans and not necessarily felt by actual business owners.
I mean the Yankees could get probably better value than Judge in RF, but they overpayed for a superstar. If they replaced him with an average RF who just happened to be a good value, it’s detrimental to them winning.
And no, I don’t think he’s now worth $15 million a year, and obviously many teams agree with me. You conveniently left out the fact that he’s not a good fielder and literally had about 30 extra base hits over an entire season.
His WAR basically measured up to Michael A Taylor and Kolten Wong, who are making a lot less money.
OPS + isnt the only tool used to evaluate players.
DogDays- you DO understand that WAR is weighted with a positional adjustment right?
So when you take Wong, a 2B, and Taylor, a CF, and compare them to a LF, WAR is the WRONG metric to use right? Pick some LFers of a similar WAR if you want to compare contracts.
Benny has a significantly better offensive profile, which is why his war is depressed by playing a position that doesn’t get a bump for defense, even though he profiles as superior by a significant amount in his offensive abilities.
Here’s another hint….
By WAR, among LFers, benintendi was 4th best in all of MLB according to fangraphs… not too shabby.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=bat&#…
Verdugo, on the otherhand, ranked 12th and put up less than half the war benintendi did. Just for comparisons sake…
Of course, I’m exaggerating for effect— kind of like saying I don’t understand baseball because I don’t worship Benny’s ability.
You excuse his awful 2020 away and ridiculously compare him to Altuve for no relatable reason and pretend his 2019 was excellent, even though it was average. It’s not some crazy decision at that point to let him go.
But good for Benny. He went to a non-competitive, non-pressured atmosphere and built up his value for a nice, overrated pay day. Good for him.
And why couldn’t the Red Sox feel they couldn’t re-sign their best player? Arguably the best player in the league at the time. They are not the Rays.
Benintendi’s last year he was hurt and only played 14 games, but the year before that he did have a down year where he performed at league average, “terrible” is an overstatement. But instead of giving him time to rebound (he was 25 years old) they sold low on him. You do not trade your assets at their low value. At least give him time to correct himself and sell when he is trending up. But no, they sold low on a former 7th overall pick, he finished second in ROY, had a 20/20 season under his belt, and narrowly missed a second in his first two full seasons in the MLB.
After talking to you Red Sox fans, you deserve what’s going on with your team. You cannot see how they completely mismanaged everything since Bloom took over.
“Trying to win a World Series.” After trading their best player for a LF that has less value than Benintendi lol.
You guys deserve Bloom.
Ya, because you just ditch a player that was your former 7th overall pick, had finished 2nd in ROY, was a 20/20 player in his first full season, just missed it in his second, then had an average year, followed by a injury shortened one. How do you not see that as crazy?
Some guys see it as crazy. Some guys hate bloom. Many fans paid $100 to heckle bloom and henry at the winter weekend.
Lots of people are not ok with the direction of the franchise. It’s been most of a month opening day tickets have been on sale and seats are still available all over the park.
Many are unhappy with the direction thing have gone and are starting to vote with their wallets, something that hasn’t happened since the 1990s as far as attendance like this goes, including seats staying empty until 5th, 6th inning when some people show up, if at all, to home games.
Actually, 2019 for benintendi was, again, ABOVE average. He had a 1.8war season immediately behind a three-way tie for 9th best in the league by .2war…. in other words, he was still 12th best of all LFers in mlb, and hearty a top-ten player.
Of course there’s a correlation to altuve, both guys had an off year in 2020. Even trout dropped production substantially off his normal pace. Great players had bad years in 2020, an abomination season without proper spring training to warm up, and guys get hurt, get sick, in a tiny window and it’s not a true sample.
Trying to say a guy who is young, relatively cheap, has control, and consistently rates as one of the top half of the league in his position except whe. He was sick/injured wasn’t any good and wasn’t worth keeping makes no sense.
Sometimes you’ve got to admit bloom got it wrong, no matter how big a fanboy of his you are.
Great hint. He ranked high in a position that is currently weak across baseball. So he’s better than Canha and Profar. Are they fantastic players too?
FYI , I’m not a Red Sox fan. Ok, I misused terrible . That was just 2020 , but I’ll leave that to you and your excuses.
It’s more amazing how you guys play Monday morning qb after the fact. If they would have kept Benny and he had an another subpar year, the same people on here would be saying “why did they keep him? Didn’t they see the regression?”
Ya know, kind of like you guys seem to be evaluating Verdugo.. Benny had a solid year in a contract year, in Kansas City. Let’s see what he does now.
So you want to give Benny three years to figure it out, but not Verdugo. Interesting
Again, I never evaluated the trade or all these other factors you guys are throwing in there.
I just think you’re overrating Benny, it’s that simple.
12th best, that’s pretty much the equivalent of average.
Lol just stick to the facts. I’m not a Sox fan or even standing up for Bloom. You’re just making things up.
I just think Benny is mediocre, can’t you just stick to the topic without throwing all these bizarre invented comments trying to identify me as something I’m not?
Do you realize how many years Verdugo has had to ‘figure it out”? Verdugo is ‘ok’ as a LFer. It’s his platform year, headed to FA and I don’t see him getting an offer to return either. Let’s see what he does. What he ISNT, is a RFer, or a CFer. Yoshi being here eliminates his spot with the team going forward, positionally.
His defense goes downhill outside LF where he is +21drs, but -6drs in cf/rf. His uzr/150 in LF is +6.7, but -11.5 for cf/rf. I lump cf/rf together, because as a RF in fenway you are doing the job of CF due to the quirks of the stadium dimensions.
His OAA/RAA is 1/1 for LF, but drops to -5/-4 in CF and -4/-3 in RF. It doesn’t matter the metric, he just isn’t good outside LF.
If you want your best on field product, Verdugo is a LFer. Bloom has shifted him to RF as part of an overall drastic weakening of the OF defense over even the ’22 squad.
Now you’re making this about Verdugo lol.
Though I think his upside is much higher than Benny at this point..
We can agree to disagree. I just find it funny I was called a Red Sox fan boy , a Bloom supporter. Neither which is true.
And my baseball knowledge questioned because I didn’t think a guy, that ranks outside the top 100 in WAR after a good year , is considered some great player.
Welcome to the internet!
Dogdays – you introduced the topic of Verdugo when commenting on why doesn’t Verdugo get the allowance of years to figure things out. So, I explained what the deal with Verdugo is.
As far as your baseball knowledge being questioned, yes, you opened that door. You told another poster that a neutral offensive statistic such as ops+ isn’t the only way to evaluate a player (true) but to make your point you used a position-weighted statistic (WAR) to compare a LF to a 2B and a CF, neither of which are weighted like a LF and are dissimilar comps in WAR.
Then you admitted that LF is, by WAR standards, comparatively weak in talent in mlb, but, basically said and implied that a player who ranks high in war for his position within mlb, just because he isn’t high in WAR (again weighted) compared to all of MLB players, he isn’t a top player in baseball for his position, that he is somehow weak.
You do realize that WAR doesn’t let you compare between positions, only within them right? Certain positions by their nature even make WAR a poor evaluation statistic altogether.
Dogdays – Using that logic you must hate Devers too. In 2018 he sucked. He was bad offensively and defensively and Boston won a World Series. Benny putting up a 99 OPS+ while costing under a million making him perfect for the roster DD put together. He had six players paid elite money and to compliment those players he had guys like Benny, Devers, Vazquez, and even Moreland costing very little yet playing well enough to keep the overall team performance high.
Don’t go into any baseball program or business because you don’t understand the value of relationships. You must be young. When you evaluate what a person has done for your organization you want to be factual and emotional. You want over-performers with loyalty.
That was Benny for 5 years until COVID and an injury ruined a 60 game season. The bad 14 games he actually got in during 2020 were preceded by 500 good ones. It’s very short-sighted of anyone to judge on those 14 games especially with the 500 good ones preceding it. Call it an off day or whatever but it was an anomaly and a knowledgeable baseball person would have known that.
Your Judge analogy makes no sense. Each roster needs a balance between expensive and cheap slots. With 9 hitting slots it’s not unusual to see 3 expensive players, 3 sub $1MM players and the other three are based on whether you are a mid market or big market team. Boston had Benny cheap, JBJ cheap, Mookie expensive, Vazquez cheap, Devers cheap, Bogey expensive, Pedroia expensive, Moreland cheap and JD expensive. That was well planned by DD. Benny was a perfect fit and a significant contributor to the teams success and would have been going forward if DD wasn’t fired. Bloom has no clue and unceremoniously dumped him for trash. Typical Bloom.
So you don’t replace Judge with a cost effective RF you get a cost effective player in LF or CF to off=set Judge’s cost. $230MM is a huge number and one guy at $40MM doesn’t kill a payroll. 3 guys at $35MM doesn’t kill a payroll for a big market team. Benny at $15MM is a mid level cost producing mid level value. That’s much better than KIki a AAA player being paid $10MM a year because Cora baby sat him when he was young and earning a 95 OPS+ after two years. That’s a bad business man who pays that price for garbage.
Compare the starters now (OPS+/Cost) and then do the same for the 2018 team and you’ll see why the team in 2018 won 108 games and this team isn’t likely to win 81. Then, go by position and see how Bloom has distributed his $230MM budget. LF – $18MM, CF – $7MM, RF – $6.3MM, DH – $10.85MM, C – $1.225MM, 1B – League Minimum 2B – $23.3MM hurt $3.045MM back-up, SS – $10MM, 3B – $17.5MM.
When you divide these payroll numbers by expected OPS+ you’ll see that nobody is a lock to be a greater VALUE than COST. That’s nearly the opposite of the 2018 team.
Benny should help the CWS be more competitive in 2023. At this point, he provides senior leadership, is a strong defender and will likely bat at the top of the order in the 2 slot. Not bad for a guy you think should have been traded from the Red Sox. A true home grown hero who got dumped by a nobody GM.
Dogdays – WAR? You think that’s a stat? hahahaha
WAR like OPS+ is an ESTIMATE. I personally don’t like OPS+ to evaluate hitters but most young people on this site don’t relate to real stats.
Look up ANY modern metric and you’ll find that it is an estimate which includes constants that must be selected by the authority behind the number and variables that must be selected by the authority behind the number. That’s why two different metrics companies don’t provide the same value for WAR or even OPS+. They are contrived numbers that are completely dependent on a set of factors being determined by the powers that be. That means the numbers are interpretive not facts. You want facts, go look at OBP, Batting Average, SB, HR, RBI, R and Total Bases. Those numbers are results and factual.
So if you want to create a formula for evaluation my suggestion is to take a players OPS and subtract his batting average. That number is a factual summary of his hitting. Then, consider his base running impact and you might be able to evaluate if a player is worth his cost. There is no right weight for base running so this method like the modern metrics is flawed because assumptions must be made. Only the TC or Total Contribution is valid based on facts. So if we look at Benny’s TC during the years he’s been in the majors you see: TC = OPS – BA
2016 – .540 with 1 SB in 34 games for $172K
2017 – .505 with 20 SBs in 151 games for $549K
2018 – .540 with 21 SBs in 148 games for $620.5K
2019 – .512 with 10 SBs in 138 games for $717.5K
2020 – .339 with 1 SB in 14 games for $1.259MM
2021 – .490 with 8 SBs in 134 games for $6.6MM
2022 – .468 with 8 SBs in 126 games for $8.5MM
These numbers suggest that in Boston Benny was grossly under-paid for what he produced. His last two years have seen a fall off in HRs which dropped his TC by roughly 40 points. He needs to get his TC back over .500 to justify his $15MM a year salary. We can check back in October to see if he justified his pay or not.
RodBeck – You aren’t talking to a Red Sox fan in Dog Days. The core Red Sox fans hate Bloom with a passion.
DogDays – Next time your write Benintendi’s name you should put ALL-STAR before it and then genuflect for being so indignant!!
GA – Nice job shooting down the twit. I think he’s using his father’s login to access the site. Anonymity sure makes people brave.
GA, I made my points, (many of them) and you just ignore and move on to something else.
What statistical measurement do you want to use that shows Benny is some great player? The reality is that there aren’t many great left fielders currently. It’s just obvious.
You guys go on about Benny’s IOS+ but Verdugo is basically above average too, using your statistic.
Look— I get your love affair with him. He had an excellent postseason years ago but since then he’s simply not that good. I don’t know what you want me to call him… a first ballot HOF?
You’ve shown he had good value in the past,that’s it. I’ll give you that.
Pulled, right off the bad — that’s just a stupid comment. I do run a successful business, what the hell does baseball acumen have to do with something in a totally different industry? You think all the successful CEO’s are sports experts. I mean cmon. Do better.
Loyalty is gone in sports… wake up. I do believe in loyalty but it has nothing to do with todays sports landscape. Zero.
Now all of a sudden , Benny is some leader too. Says who? Because he’s a good dancer in the oF after games? Not sure where you’re from but my homegrown heroes aren’t average players.
I have no idea what the Devers comment even means, it literally makes no sense at all. Unlike Benny, Devers progressed. Huge difference.
It’s still amazing how you guys keep bringing up Bloom. I never once backed up his resume or the job he’s doing.
Bottom line, I just don’t think Benny is good. We just disagree—- you think he would have revitalized his career in Boston and I don’t.
Did he add for the money he was making? Yes
Is he some difference -making talent? No
Pulled. Yeah, I mean I said I wasn’t a Red Sox fan several times.
Pulled, youre just not reading my comments. You’re continuing with the value/ anti- Bloom agenda which I’ve repeatedly said I’m not opposing.
Lol Pulled. Congrats on Benny finally making the all star team!! Taking advantage of the rule that requires one player from every team, even the lousy ones!
Too bad he now moved on to another team with better players…. So his all-star career has officially ended.
I’m surprised he wasn’t a starter during a season where he masterfully had 30extra base hits! He’s another Ted Williams !
Lol shot down?
Me several times : Benny did add value and I’m not a Bloom supporter.
The replies to me: let me tell you why Benny had value and how bad Bloom is.
To shoot down someone or something, it should be an actual target…. Not the ones created in your imaginations.
DogDaysz – We weren’t talking about CEOs we were talking about a GM and how he relates to the personnel in his organization. I guess you missed the point. Treating people as family does NOT prohibit you from making the necessary choices to be successful. The data clearly showed Benny at $5M was a very good deal for Boston in 2021. Bloom isn’t a good enough GM to understand Value versus Cost. He apparently must have heard about it from the real brains in TB so he used it in his pitch to Red Sox ownership but clearly based on his actions has no clue what it means.
You confuse loyalty with bad decision making. If a player is not performing you give them a chance to prove themselves, set a criterion for success and if they don’t meet it, you must fire them. In baseball, you may want to deal them for a comparable player that might have stats that suggest he has a bigger upside. Loyalty isn’t keeping a guy who isn’t cutting it, loyalty is giving all players an equal opportunity to prove themselves by reaching their agreed upon goals.
Your leadership comment shows you never played the game. Benny is a veteran who won a world series, made the all-star game and has played in the playoffs many times. Those are all accomplishments that young players respect. That’s why he is a leader walking into their clubhouse. His accomplishments speak for themselves whether you like him or not.
I didn’t say cheerleader, I said clubhouse leader. A position earned from experience.
You stated Benintendi wasn’t good in 2020 so Boston needed to get rid of him. Devers was terrible in 2018 so using your logic he should have been traded like Benny.
Tell me, can you really look at the facts and say “Unlike Benny, Devers progressed.”?
If so, that speaks volumes to your lack of comprehension of data. Benny clearly progressed in his 5 years in Boston. That’s irrefutable based on the evidence. If you cherry pick data, like you’ve done then picking a bad segment can give faulty information. You did it for Benny and I likened it to doing something similar to Devers related to the 2018 season. Small samples can skew results. Five years of Benny developing into an all-star level player sure seems like progression to me.
Don’t worry I don’t expect an admission of being wrong. I believe you are a Yankee fan so nothing else needs to be said!!! hahahaha
Once again, GA, nice job slapping this guy silly!!!
DogDays – Check the tape. Go to the Houston series and his catch late in the game to save the win. That’s a difference making talent not to mention his hitting, base running his willingness to follow instruction from know nothing hitting coaches in Boston. His dip in stats come the coaching staff just like Sale’s failure comes from Cora’s mishandling of him along with Price. When aberrations happen in the data you must dig deep to find the cause. Benny’s cause was bad coaching. Sales phenomenal drop-off and subsequent TJ surgery is all on Cora.
Fact – Benny made the all-star team in 2022. Whether he is the best all-star or the worst all-star he made an elite team that very few players ever make in their career. He did it in his 7th season. Mookie did it in his 3rd season, Bogey did it in his 4th season and Devers did it in his 5th season. That’s a perfect ranking of the hitting skills of the four players.
If the biggest slam you can put on Benny is that he’s not as good as Mookie, Bogey or Devers that’s not a slam. Not many players are.
Benny’s career isn’t over either. Who knows how much more he will progress.
Dog Daysz – You continue to knock Benny so revisionist history is happening when you write Benny did add value.
The Bloom slams, if you followed this site, are a constant by me and have nothing to do with what you are saying. It is one person’s attempt to flood the market with ANTI-BLOOM thoughts in hopes that more fans jump on the FIRE BLOOM band wagon.
We need t-shirts with “Reverse the Bloom Curse!! on the front for opening day!!! I don’t believe I even noticed if you supported Bloom or not. Glad to hear you don’t.
Since Henry raised the issue that he is unhappy with the results vs resources deployed, so.eone needs to straight up ask him, if the results continue, how much longer does bloom have a job?
Pulled, you simply use whatever data is convenient to try to prove value.
I never once said Benny want good value at some points if his career.
Let me me just focus on this one point since you’re trying to broaden the discussion to make yourself sound intelligent…
If you think Benny progressed during his time in Boston, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Zero.
Maybe it wasn’t you, I’m being attacked by three different people using false narratives that I’m a Sox fanboy and Bloom backer because you’re unable to refute anything I said.
Why would it matter what team I root for…,I can have an opinion too! Lol
So because a guy made a good catch, he’s a difference making talent. Do you really need a list of guys who made great catches that weren’t great players?
What’s funny is… Benny your HOF candidate never would have made the all star game if Pérez didn’t get hurt. I would think a player that is soooo good would be able to make it on his own merits.., once!
His argument just died.
“If so, that speaks volumes to your lack of comprehension of data. Benny clearly progressed in his 5 years in Boston. That’s irrefutable based on the evidence. ‘
Benintendi was much better in 17 and 18 than 19 and 20. The evidence is irrefutable, but he doesn’t present any.
Idiot
Lol get ready for another reply discussing Benny’s value as he thinks the Red Sox are a small-market team.
If these two clowns were Yankee fans, they would be lobbying for them to keep Aaron Hicks, since he was “great value” a few years ago.
Shooter to your point when they basically let Mookie walk I thought.. okay they will use that money to extend X/ Benny/ devers etc… 2/3…just goes to show you …. I’m not a brilliant mind like these GM.S
Xander the only loss that hurts there, I would have been okay with JD back on a 1-year…I don’t know if qualifying offer was available for him but that was the max I would have given him on a 1-year. Wacha, Eovaldi, and Hill – no loss
as a Yankee fan, I support the Red Sox organization’s approach to this season.
Unfortunately, the Yankees and Red Sox have been following similar approaches of limiting spending. Hal refuses to go above the Cohen line to improve the team.
we’ll see about the Mets.
Reckless spending does not equate to success.
I must have missed how the Red Sox and Yankees are comparable this offseason as far as spending goes.
Yankeesforever – As a Red Sox fan, I support the Yankee organization’s approach to this season. I think it should help both Toronto win the division and who knows maybe the Orioles will finish 2nd if the Rays don’t.
It’s funny, this past year I’m not sure which was more shocking, Bloom getting an extension or Cashman getting an extension. I laugh at the fact that two of the most prestigious organizations have two of the worst GMs AND two of the worst managers.
Cashman was fortunate to get promoted to GM in 1998 thanks to his father’s connections with George Sr. (he ran Pomano Park in Florida where George was a regular). His timing allowed him to win 3 straight years with the biggest payroll and players acquired by his predecessors.
Since 2000 (22 seasons) he’s spent by far the most money on players and has ONE ring and hasn’t been fired. George senior must have won a ton of money at the Pompano Park to justify keeping Cashman through 21 failed seasons. Heck, DD had one bad season as was gone after accomplishing more in 3 years than Cashman did in nearly two decades.
Baseball is all about who you know not how good you are. Cashman, Bloom, Cora and Boone are all perfect examples of unqualified people maintaining jobs that hurt their franchise.
I’m just curious…. Besides you… who do you think has a strong baseball mind… since everyone else is apparently terrible?
I think Boston is being overlooked. They have made some nice moves and may surprise. This really all depends on the healthy of Chris Sale. Starting pitching is the only question mark.
Seamus – Seriously? The SP is their strength and it’s very iffy. Their offense is bad to mediocre depending on Yoshida being real, Duvall having an up year, Verdugo not continuing to be a league average player, Casas rebounding and living up to expectations, Mondesi staying healthy, Kiki getting hurt and moving Mondesi to SS, Devers not mishandling 50 grounders like he normally does, McGuire has no upside so forget that position and Justin Turner pretending he’s in his prime not 38.
The only part of the team that isn’t a set of solid question marks is the bullpen. Jansen shouldn’t fall off but could and the rest of it simply needs to stay healthy. The trick will be for the offense to actually get a lead!!
The level of schadenfreude I experience when reading these kinds of comments about the Crud Sawx is so delicious it can be eaten with a spoon. They can never suck enough to please me.
Still upset that we knocked you out in 21?
Oh come on …. The Covid season had to please you plenty!!!!
Turns out if you let Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts walk away in their prime it becomes a great time to cut back on spending and “retool”
More gaslighting from MLB owners. If they want to sit back and just rake in money without spending that is totally their right, just don’t publicly make excuses/ lie about it.
I think a bigger issue that Henry and a lot of people here are missing is what is really annoying a lot of us. It’s the ‘misstatements (*cough*LIES*cough*)
“We being competitive!” “Resigning our Free – Agents is our Top Priority”
Silly statements that don’t hold up to reality. And the saddest part is that they were/are completely UNNECESSARY!
I think ALL of us would have been just fine with, “We want to get under the threshold because it hurts our drafting, and we need to rebuild for a year or two” I would have been just fine with, “We love Bogey, but the dude is going to get a haul, and we can’t rebuild and pay at the same time.”
I could be wrong, but isn’t Henry the last man standing from the original ownership group? At least in terms of managing partners?”
John Henry would do well to tell the entire FO to stop with the PR statements. I don’t mind if the Sox are going to suck for a year or two. Just don’t tell me they’re baking me my favorite desert while spooning me dog poop.
Just my humble opinion. Feel free to flame 🙂
DBH – OUTSTANDING!!!
🙂
It’s time Henry and the other owners sold the Red Sox to someone who is interested in baseball. He has already made a ton of money off the club.
It’s time Henry and the other owners sold the Red Sox to someone who is interested in baseball.
===========================
Four WSCs in the 19 years. How many WSCs does your team have?
And Henry’s first World series win was back in 2004, the next in 2007,, and since then his club has had five 5th place finishes.
AND 2 CHAMPIONSHIPS… !!!! ANSWER THE MANS QUESTION!!!
So your point here is that Henry only has two WSCs in the past ten years?
I will take one SC every five years forever and ever.
Whelp, it’s 5 years since the last WS, and, I’ll GUARANTEE there’s no red sox WS this year.
GA – I’ll take it a step farther. NO WS WITH BLOOM. Heck, I doubt there will be a playoff series in the future with Bloom. Maybe not even a 4th place finish in the AL East with Bloom.
The good news is with Bloom gone and a real GM in place the team just needs to have the bad Bloom contracts traded away and some new FAs that provide fair value for their cost. Frankly, I don’t care how much the new GM spends as long as each player is worth more than his cost. That means his OPS+ justifies his impact to the Luxury Tax amount.
John Henry the leader of the woke brigade, of MLB.
Considering the year expected, perhaps Henry should spend some money to build a new 40 ft green monster outside the stadium to hide the team from view until things get better
Tough to hate on a owner who has more championships in 21 century than anyone…as many of you 75/ 78/ 86 and so on left a real kick in the groin feeling to me growing up.. I don’t like where the team has been the last few( game 6 alcs) a stones throw ago… so let’s see where the next two years plays out… to me it’s about the rings and the Redsox are 4-4 lately… congrats on making playoffs 10 years in a row etc…. How many rings????
funny how rings didn’t matter until you got some eh.!
All we Yankee fans heard since forever from sox fans was how Yankee fans lived in the past, well welcome to that past cause you are doing the same thing, but your team sucks now and you have a 162 games to enjoy that fact.
Maybe… but again plenty of room on the couch for my buddies from NY….
The fans want “full transparency” from owners like John Henry.
Show your credibility by explaining, honestly and not written by your PR Department,
Why their is so much turmoil and dysfunction in your Ownership Suite and Front Office?!
Why did you chase off some of the best MLB Front Office Talent for no legitimate reasons:?!
Start with Theo Epstein
Then, future Hall of Fame Executive Dave Dombrowski
Then Michael Hazen (Diamondbacks GM)
Next, Ben Cherrington (Pirates GM).
We will wait for your answers until all hell freezes over…
Bloom must go fire him now !!!
He misses the point. It’s only ok to have a budget if you win. If you’re not winning, you need to spend every penny you have trying.
bencole – Spending money to spend money is what Bloom does best. His value to cost ratios are terrible. Fans want a better product but to get it Bloom must go. He’s proven he has no clue how to build a winner in a big market. Maybe he should start at the Little League level and work his way up!!
Boston needs to trade away the guys who cost more than their value. Then take the bushel of money to free agency and pay for players with value greater than cost.
Devers will be an albatross in a few years. Yoshida should be one from the start. Jansen may be over the hill and if he’s not his main value would be at the trade deadline. These are all Bloom mistakes that need to be cleared from the books so a new GM with experience can quickly reverse the Bloom curse.
Given his politics, John Henry is well acquainted with false narratives.
congrats on shoehorning a crappy political take into the conversation.
Thanks
you’re welcome.